All Serbian gas supplies cut

Serbia should sue the Ukraine. Just because the Ukraine does not want to pay it's gas bill to Russia does not mean millions of Serbian residents should be freezing.

All countries affected by gas shortage should team up together and send an international convoy to Ukraine to help supervise ghe gas pipelines. It is not acceptable that Ukraine is stealing gas destined for Europe.

Typical stance to blame the Russian... but it's the Ukraine who are stealing gas as we speak... they recieve the cheapest gas yet they still don't pay. The sooner Russia by-passes th Ukraine with a new pipeline the better!!!

There is an issue... and that is that other news stations are reporting that Serbia, Bulgaria, BiH, Croatia, Greece and FYR Macedonia get NO gas now. Scary if you think about it. Slovakia is in crisis. Austria's supplies are down 90%, and Romania's 75%. Conclusion? Russia owning gas is like owning Europe's blood.

It's because of that reduction yesterday that gas supplies to Serbia are reduced, not because of Ukraine's alleged non-payment.
(Tricky Dicky, 6 January 2009

Well, not 100% accurate... Gazprom confirmed receipt of payment of 1.5 billion, but about 0.5 penalty for ongoing late payments has not been transferred and Ukraina has not intention to comply with this despite of a contract stipulating it!
The 65.3 cm3 reduction is representing the gaz intended for Europe but shiphoned by Ukraina.

Gazprom is not punishing anybody but am sure if you had the possibility to sell your products at $ 500 to a reliable and paying customer (Europe) why would you sell at $ 200 to an unreliable customer (ukraine). This has been going on for years and Ukraina simply do not want to pay more,(they just refused $ 250) but the days of sponsoring are over and Ukraina should get their acts together and realize it once for all!! They are actually sitting on the transit route and penalizing all Europe with their attitude.
Had Russia the opportunity to use another route, Ukraina would aldready be dead by now!
Russian are certainly not saints and are using this commercial dispute to give a lesson to Ukraina but that's the way unfortunately the world function these days!

And last but not least, if you are blaming the serbian govnt, then the same should be applied to all european govnt since as far as am aware off 80% of european needs is coming out of russia!

Thank you Gazprom for cutting off our gas.

Thank you Mr Kostunica, Tadic, Sutanovac et al for being so keen to be friendly to and trustworthy of Russia. Look what good it's done Serbia?

And to the previous poster who is blaming Ukraine, please remember that: a) Ukraine paid their debt on time for gas supplied to them by Rosukrenergo (30 December 2008 - $1,522 billion). Rosukrenergo then failed to pay Gazprom - but Gazprom punishes the people of Ukraine and now the rest of Europe; and b) Gazprom announced yesterday that they were reducing their supply to Europe beyond Ukraine by 65.3 mcm per day as further punishment.

It's because of that reduction yesterday that gas supplies to Serbia are reduced, not because of Ukraine's alleged non-payment.

I think you are all missing the point here.

How come there is no strategic reserve of gas? Not even a weeks worth in store and, apparently not even a full days worth of gas in store. That is the real story here. What the hell have srbijagas been doing running down the reserves so badly?

1) "Well, not 100% accurate... Gazprom confirmed receipt of payment of 1.5 billion, but about 0.5 penalty for ongoing late payments has not been transferred and Ukraina has not intention to comply with this despite of a contract stipulating it!"
(The Swiss, 6 January 2009 18:12)

My words were scrupulously accurate. Naftogaz has paid for the gas it has been supplied with, the penalty fees issued by Gazprom were not.

But you chose to miss the main point. Gazprom has a contract to supply gas to Rosukrenergo - not Naftogaz. Gazprom should be punishing Rosukrenergo not the people of Ukraine and now us. If Rosukrenergo then chooses to punish Naftogas, so be it.

2) "The 65.3 cm3 reduction is representing the gaz intended for Europe but shiphoned by Ukraina."
(The Swiss, 6 January 2009 18:12)

That is the excuse issued by Gazprom disguising some very underhand trickery.

The reality is, that Gazprom promised to the EU that it would guarantee gas supplies, and now it is deliberately reducing supplies BELOW those contracted to exert pressure on Ukraine. Gazprom is deliberately making those of us in Serbia and elsewhere suffer hoping that the EU will put pressure on Ukraine to capitulate.

3) "And last but not least, if you are blaming the serbian govnt, then the same should be applied to all european govnt since as far as am aware off 80% of european needs is coming out of russia!"
(The Swiss, 6 January 2009 18:12)

Then you are mistaken about my words and thoughts.

4) "Ukraine is stalling negotiations with Russia for a new contract (tricky dicky failed to mention that) as well as late payments."
(mark, 6 January 2009 18:27)

See above. This is not a business disagreement any longer over unpaid bills. This is Mother Russia throwing her political weight around on the international stage.

5) "If they dont wish to negotiate than Russia is within its rights not to sell to ukraine."
(mark, 6 January 2009 18:27)

Correct. However, is Gazprom within its rights to cut supplies that it has contracted with others?

6) "Ukraine is stealing serbia's gas as well as the rest of the region."
(mark, 6 January 2009 18:27)

"Stealing" is a strong and unproven word. Gazprom has said it is taking the dispute to the Stockholm arbitration court. If they determine Ukraine was 'stealing' gas, then Ukraine should be punished. But if the court declares that Russia was in the wrong, then what????

Nevertheless, how would you feel if Stankom Gas refuses to supply you with gas that you've paid for because your neighbour hasn't paid his bill?

7) "Thanks to Kostunica we will soon have a pipeline that bypasses the gas thieves."
(mark, 6 January 2009 18:27)

A pipeline that makes Serbia even more beholden to the political whims of Moscow. Super!

Ukraine is stalling negotiations with Russia for a new contract (tricky dicky failed to mention that) as well as late payments. If they dont wish to negotiate than Russia is within its rights not to sell to ukraine. Ukraine is stealing serbia's gas as well as the rest of the region. Thanks to Kostunica we will soon have a pipeline that bypasses the gas thieves.

If Ukraine is indeed not guilty, then it has not to be afraid to let independent observers in and they will show that Ukraine is not stealing gas... but suspiciously enough they have refused to do that.

where´s dinkic ?

where´s superpower usa ?

seems like holiday for all the clowns ...

how goes the old saying ? when the landlord speaks, the farmer is quiet ....

The Swiss

Thanks for shortening my post ! The sooner other Europeans stop demonizing Russia and start to think rationally the sooner this banditism on the road is eliminated.

Let's wait for a couple of days when EU will reveal as I believe a neutral point of view on the events. In Russia the most used word concerning Ukraine is STEALING. This is a half bankrupt state with zero reputation. So they have sent such a Christmas present to EU.

Everything will be OK coz Gasprom has no reverse transmittion. They move only forward.

On 6 January 2009 17:07, Cygnus wrote:

"Serbia should sue the Ukraine."

What?? I assume that the Serbian companies has an agreement with the Russian supplier(s), right? So if anyone is going to sue someone, it should be Serbian companies suing the Russian suppliers for breach of contract.
--

"Well, not 100% accurate... Gazprom confirmed receipt of payment of 1.5 billion, but about 0.5 penalty for ongoing late payments has not been transferred and Ukraina has not intention to comply with this despite of a contract stipulating it!
The 65.3 cm3 reduction is representing the gaz intended for Europe but shiphoned by Ukraina. "

The Swiss, maybe you`r right, but who cares? A contract is a contract and has to be fulfilled. And even if the russians have to bring their gas in their pockets to us, that`s not our problem!

According to SKY news in the UK the gas problem is down to un paid bills by Ukraine, however they do show a meeting between Putin and the head of Gazprom where Putin tells him to cut the gas.

Supplies to the west have Europe have so far been ok the report states the Balkans has no supply at all. We in the UK get some gas from the North sea and Norway it should not cause us a major problem.

Tricky Dicky it may be true Ukraine paid a middle man but the fact still remians gazprom has not had its money, so its up to the Ukraine to find where the payment has gone. In the UK if you don't pay a supplier for goods thay put you on stop.

They resume a service when you pay your bill. At the end of the day you pay your bills and ensure who you owe money to gets it, thats business.

Reread 1984. Russia are living in orwellian world right now. And when the powerholders has been brainwashing their slaves long enough, they lost the touch to reality, they become zombies themselves. Russians are TV nation, they are educated, healed and fed through Putler media. Please be aware!

Gas supply shortages have been noticed in Romania, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Bulgaria and Slovakia... and maybe even more... this is not an issue between Serbia and Russia... Russia said they are going to cut the Ukraine's supply of gas and the Ukraine said they will siphon off the gas they need from the European supplies from the gas that is routed through the Ukraine. The Ukraine made that threat quite openly and it looks like they are making going through with it.

All the more reason to get the south stream pipeline bypassing Ukraine built quickly.

There is a political reason behind this. Its Russia who is mocking the smaller slavic nations by playing with them with gas supply cuts.
But I do feel very sorry that regular people have to suffer in cold due to political games that Russia plays with the smaller nations like she did with Georgia this pas summer.

Hang on I thought you just signed a gazprom deal recently what for? to get this? oh no Russian reliability is failing again, Russia knows that it going to take a different route because they cant stop Ukraine joining NATO. This is the only way these bullies tend get it their way

Peace out!!

Serbia needs to choose it's trading partners more carefully. The only thing Russia has done is back Serbia in it's fight to keep Kosovo. Russia is no friend of Serbia. Russia only cares about Russia. Tadic, rescind the recent Gazprom deal while you still can!

adrian,

"Well, if i order a pizza at home, i don`t care who delivers it. It`s the problem of the pizza maker. But he HAS to deliver it! His problem, not mine."

This is a wrong appoach in such an extreme situation. It's a joint problem to be solved together. When you owe a bank USD 100 it is really your problem but when you owe them USD 1 000 000 it's already the bank's problem.

So if you really need your pizza this time you will have to be involved coz despite your "admiration" about Russia this sort of pizza is delivered from there.

Merry Christmas !

Tricky Dicky

"And just look how many Serbs still think Russia is still their friend!!!!"

Dirty Tricky ! You will be surprised to know that much more Russians and me as one of them still think that Serbia is still our best friend on the Continent.

One month ago at an exibition in Moscow a representative of a Bulgarian company started to tell me that her country had always been our closest friend and ally. She was shocked when I said that it is Serbia which has never betrayed us and reminded her that Bulgaria had fought on our side way back in 19-th century when we were setting them free from the Turks. She was more surprised when I said that in both world wars they were on the German side and now they are a NATO member.

So wether you like it or not we are still very close with the Serbs.
.

"Tricky Dicky it may be true Ukraine paid a middle man but the fact still remians gazprom has not had its money, so its up to the Ukraine to find where the payment has gone. In the UK if you don't pay a supplier for goods thay put you on stop."
(dave (UK), 6 January 2009 22:18)

Rosukrenergo, the middleman, is 50% owned by Gazprom. Gazprom accepts that the money has been paid - and secure.

What hasn't been paid is a fine levied by Gazprom on Naftogas. But that is frankly irrelevant in the grander scheme of things. (I'm happy to go into more detail on this, but do not want to get bogged down.)

Russia is attempting to effect regime change in Kyiv through destroying the credibility of either the President or the PM or both in the eyes of the Ukrainian public. It is also trying to present Ukraine as an unreliable partner to NATO/EU.

By it's own admission, Gazprom has reduced gas contracted to countries beyond Ukraine by 20% because it thinks it is losing export taxes due to Ukrainian theft. http://www.gazprom.com/eng/news/2009/01/33513.shtml Theft has not be proven. It is just Gazprom propaganda to make itself look cool. Only the Stockholm court of arbitration can make that call with any sincerity.

The real reason for making this 20% cut in supply, is to provoke the EU into turning against Kyiv and telling them to capitulate.

You're OK in the UK, less than 5% of your gas comes from Russia. Here in Serbia, we are being made to suffer (being punished) because of some Russian attempt to be noticed on the world stage. Brilliant!

And just look how many Serbs still think Russia is still their friend!!!!

Very irresponsible behaviour from the Ukraine. I hope an alternative will be found soon, otherwise both Russia and the EU suffer!

i repeat this is only a farce..it's a pice of dramatic theatre organized by the Ukro-russian...
a) Ukraine want that Eu contribute to their bills with the Kremlin because it's bankrupt
b) The Kremlin is afraid that North Stream ia collapsing or slowing without his agent Schroder and needs some more terror in order to move the costruction of the pipeline on

So they have organized all this stuff....
open your eyes boys and girls...

Rote Kapelle,

You can tell me a thousand times what wonderful friends the Serbs are to Russia, but where's my gas? I'm getting cold here in my flat and your 'friendship' is not proving to be very useful.

This morning, Christmas Day of all days, Gazprom cut off ALL supplies through Ukraine. They say Naftogaz shut the pipes. The trouble is, The pipes were turned off on Russian soil. How did the Ukrainians manage to do that?

this is the most funny news of these days!I hope that you do enjoy the russian show,in serbia!

I cannot help myself noticing that the most hit by the crisis are the Russia's little balkanic slavic brothers, the bulgarians. I feel very sorry for my friends in Sofia. I was hoping for Serbia to have more luck given the fact that it was receiveing gas through Hungary.

Now, like Seneca's Medea, I am asking myself Cui prodest? To whom this crisis situation may be of use? Not to the importing countries.
Some alternative source:

http://ecfr.eu/content/entry/commentary_andrew_wilson_ukraine_russia_gas_crisis

How does this effect the chances of south stream?? I think Russia will be looking for other routes to Europe.

@dave(UK):

"They resume a service when you pay your bill. At the end of the day you pay your bills and ensure who you owe money to gets it, thats business"

Well, if i order a pizza at home, i don`t care who delivers it. It`s the problem of the pizza maker. But he HAS to deliver it! His problem, not mine.

Swiss

"I repeat, russian aren't saints and I have quiet a good experience in dealing with them because I was working in Russia for 6 years, but they can't be blame for all what is happening in the world!!"

Thanks a lot ! I think exactly the same but the problem is that people usually want to hear only what they want to hear. Besides Russians are quite a good target to spit all the times to prove oneselve that he is something better. In any case thank you for your resonable comments here !

The Swiss,

I am perfectly aware of the ownership and business registration of Rosukrenergo. 50% is held by Raffeissen Bank on behalf of Centragas Holding AG (both Austrian registered). Centragas Holding is a front company for Group DF, 90% owned by Dmitry Firtash.

You tell me who he works for other than himself and his own bank balance.

Nevertheless, if you read Gazprom's own press statments over the past week, they treat Rosukrenergo as a subsidiary.

Gazprom has every right to stop supplying gas to Ukraine if Ukraine:
a) doesn't pay it's bills,
b) refuses to sign a new contract,
c) acts illegally.

Gazprom does NOT have the right to stop supplies to other customers because it is in dispute with Naftogaz.

Today, RIA Novosti reported that the TOTAL missing gas is 86m m3. At the highest rate of $450, Naftogaz now owes Gazprom $38.7 million. How many people are going cold in Europe because Gazprom has temporarily lost a maximum of £38.7 million?

This is NOT about money, late payments, unsigned contracts, or alleged theft (still not proven) gas. It's about Russia exerting political dominance over Ukraine.

I'm glad so many Serbs are prepared to go cold to support this. Personally, I'd like to stay warm and let Russia and Ukraine sort out the problems elsewhere.

This morning, Christmas Day of all days, Gazprom cut off ALL supplies through Ukraine. They say Naftogaz shut the pipes. The trouble is, The pipes were turned off on Russian soil. How did the Ukrainians manage to do that?
(Tricky Dicky, 7 January 2009 14:03)

It's good that you mentionned that the middleman is 50% own by Gazprom, as a matter of fact, this company is registered in Switzerland,so easy to check it

http://www.rosukrenergo.ch/eng/pub/company/company_history.html

... since you seemed to be well aware, do you know how is the second shareholder?? An Ukrainian oligarch, so now the question is to find on which side this oligarch is standing....., you might dispute the fact that Ukraina didn't pay the full bills, mainly the penalty, ok, but you can't certainly deny the fact that until 31st of december there wasn't any shortage in the pipeline and Gazprom warned Ukraine many times that a new contract need to be signed. You can't also deny the fact that Ukraina refuses to pay $ 250 whereas Europe is paying $ 500! This is their absolute right but then they should source it elsewhere and let the gaz going thru to Europe.
Unfortunately Europe is as always sleeping and wake up when the things are out of hand!
The north Stream as pushed for by Gazprom and Germany has still not started for environmental reasons, but fortunately soon to kick off

http://www.nord-stream.com/en/

Let's see then how Ukraina will play once they are alternative routes...

I repeat, russian aren't saints and I have quiet a good experience in dealing with them because I was working in Russia for 6 years, but they can't be blame for all what is happening in the world!!

To Orthodox

You are welcome...after my stay in Russia, I could write a book about them :)

To Tricky Dicky

Gazprom has every right to stop supplying gas to Ukraine if Ukraine:
a) doesn't pay it's bills,
b) refuses to sign a new contract,
c) acts illegally.

well you said it.... all three points are correct, so I don't get you....
You are equally right in saying that Russia can't stop the delivery to other customers, well explain to me how, if Ukraine is shiphoning it all the time... (confirmed by SGS.

Schroeder was so right a few years back to push for an alternative route and thanks god it will start now!!

You are equally right in saying that Russia wants to have some influence on Ukraine, like so many other big powers in this world, starting with the US,equally want to have their sphere of influence, the so called "balance of power"!
Ukraine was maybe a bit to brave and to early in listening to the US/Nato eventhough the majority of Ukrainian people do not want to see Nato around at all!

Last but not least, you can't be so naive in believing that Dmitry Firtash is acting for his own purpose, why would he then hide behind the RZB structures whereas on the other side the Gazprom representatives are officialy named!
You certainly remember the involment of the current ukrainian govnt in some past shady gaz deals with Russia!

So, let's hope that EU will finally wake up and push a deal through which most probably will be a disaster for Ukraine now that they have refused any offers from Gazprom!

There is no contract to supply gas to Ukraine. The old one expired. The dispute between Russia and Ukraine is about pricing. Gas was offerd at a price well below what the Europeans were paying, Ukraine rejected that offer, so russia gave them another offer. The price went up! Closer to what the Europeans were paying. This is Ukraine interferring with gas flow! Ukraine redirected g as to their pipes, and they have a 4 month supply!

Anyone who believes this is a Russian/Ukrainian issue is totally naive.
Russia has seized the opportunity to demonstrate to Europe (both EU and nonEU) that they are a force to reckon with. What should only be a business relationship is a lot more when it is a "needed" commodity. This is their way of saying we are willing to shut the valves if we do not agree in future disputes.

That is in the business relationship countries, for Serbia who has entered the master/servant relationship since Russian now owns 51% of the energy sector things will be evern worse.
Russia supplies est 25% of the energy needs for Europe, however Europe has the capability of reducing that need (costly yes) to counteract Russian control. Serbia does not have that option because Russia is the one who will decide where "their company" will purchase energy to supply Serbia.

I remember during the Reagan administration. He warned the EU to not bend over to Soviets on the pipelines or they will always be blackmailed by the "soviet rotten bear"!

Come again!?

On 6 January 2009 21:06, Cygnus wrote:

"If Ukraine is indeed not guilty, then it has not to be afraid to let independent observers in and they will show that Ukraine is not stealing gas..."

I must be missing something obvious here... If Russia is suspect that Ukraine is siphoning gas of the pipelines, what is stopping Russia from inviting its European and Balkan customers over for a visit? Show them the pipeline(s) going into Ukraine, the pressure gauges, the amount of gas they are pumping in. Then the customers can all call back to their respective gas companies, ask "How much gas do we receive?". Then it is all a matter of simple math to sum up all the gas received by Poland, Germany, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc, etc, and see if the total matches the amount that Russia is piping through Ukraine. No need to involve the Ukrainians at all. The numbers will speak for themselves.
--

This crises should once again cause Serbs to wake up and realise that it should be making "true friends and allies" with its EU neighbours and NOT Russia!

Also how come Serbia has not built up any gas reserves? Probably because of corruption once again and the endless failure of it's economic system.

The Swiss,

It seems you have failed to recognise there are two separate issues at stake.

The first is Russia's punishment of Ukraine for contractual difficulties.

The second is Russia's punishment of the rest of Europe.

Here is the latest news concerning the issue: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090108/twl-russia-ukraine-gas-talks-collapse-am-d9fddae.html
"EU Energy Commissioner Andris Piebalgs said Moscow had refused to sign up to a deal, which would have restored supplies to around a dozen EU nations, at least in part because Moscow wanted its own observers stationed in Ukraine."

So, Moscow is refusing to pump gas because it wants its own monitors in Ukraine. It doesn't trust independent EU monitors it seems. Russia is happy for millions in Europe go without gas until it gets its own way over a group of monitors.

Russia is now arguing with the EU over this, but I guess it's still all Ukraine's fault.

First of all Merry Christmas to all of you (including the B92 team)! I hope you all lightened the badjnak :)

@Rote Kapelle :I agree that it is a more difficult situation, but you have to see also that we are simple clients with no influence over inner-CIS (or ex-soviet) problems.

Cui prodest Adrian?
I think that the reading of the article of your link may open some minds...
I defenetly agree with most of the things the author wrote ..

@adrian, timisoara thats more of a delivery issue once you have paid. From what the UK media is saying its over millions owed in unpaid bills.

Tricky its not reported here about middle men etc i can only comment on whats reported here in the UK.

For certain Putin has stuck is oar in so a political game is being played as well.

This in my humble opion is a good reason to move away from Gas for energy. Not sure if Nuclear is the answer but maybe its time all the leaders in the Europe start looking at solutions for a different power source.
One thing for certain its the average joe blogs in the street who cop the problems caused by our political leaders.

Russia is now arguing with the EU over this, but I guess it's still all Ukraine's fault.
(Tricky Dicky, 8 January 2009 20:47)

Well Tricky, it depens which press you look at...and just wondering where you read that Russian want their own inspectors, it seems that they want inspectors from different EU countries and gaz companies...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/01/08/europe.russia.gas.meeting/index.html

CNN might be wrong too...

I still don't get your point unless your are working for a charity fund! If I had the choice to sell my goods to a higher price to a realiable customer rather than to a lower price to an unreliable bankrupt customer, not even a question...,
Now, again, I agree with you that a strong political game is going behind and this is neither upto you nor to me to try to understand! Russki salad!

Ukraine like Georgia stupidely thought that because the US and EU were talking warmly to them they could allow themselves to act like spoiled children, deadly mistake!!

All this is at the end will help the Russians to have free of charge a tight control of their gaz delivery to EU and nothing will flow to Ukraine...

The Swiss,

Once again, you seem to be conflating two issues into one.

Russia has proposed a permanent "International expert commission on transit of natural gas through the territory of Ukraine". It has reluctantly, and belatedly offered to allow the same inspectors to work on the Russian side of the border too. This is a proposal for the future.

It has nothing to do with the independent EU monitors due in Ukraine today which are being sent to monitor the current problem.

After spending most of yesterday afternoon telling the European Parliament and the international press that Gazprom will start pumping gas as soon as the independent EU monitors arrived, Aleksey Miller then promptly backtracked and demanded that Russian monitors accompany the EU independent monitors. Hardly an independent monitoring mission if it's loaded with Russians!

The report I gave was an AFP report quoting the Czech Industy Minister and the EU Energy Commissioner. Russia has effectively told the EU that it doesn't trust its monitors.

I am not a charity. I am an individual sitting in a flat with no heating. I have no heating because Gazprom cut off my supply of gas - by their own admission. They think that punishing me is a good way to do business with Europe.

The Swiss,

You wrote, and I missed earlier:
"Last but not least, you can't be so naive in believing that Dmitry Firtash is acting for his own purpose, why would he then hide behind the RZB structures whereas on the other side the Gazprom representatives are officialy named!"

What nonsense are you writing of? Are you suggesting that a multi-billionaire is not working in his own interests first and foremost? And if you feel he is working for somebody else, just who are you thinking of?

And finally, you seem to think your belief holds some validity because he "hides behind the RZB structures". What a load of nonsense. He is listed on the Rosukrenergo website as Chairman of the Supervisory Board. http://www.rosukrenergo.ch/eng/pub/company/management.html If this is the best 'evidence' you can offer to support your belief, his "hiding", then I suggest you do some research, find the facts, and alter your opinion a little.

Thank you Gazprom for cutting off our gas.

Thank you Mr Kostunica, Tadic, Sutanovac et al for being so keen to be friendly to and trustworthy of Russia. Look what good it's done Serbia?

And to the previous poster who is blaming Ukraine, please remember that: a) Ukraine paid their debt on time for gas supplied to them by Rosukrenergo (30 December 2008 - $1,522 billion). Rosukrenergo then failed to pay Gazprom - but Gazprom punishes the people of Ukraine and now the rest of Europe; and b) Gazprom announced yesterday that they were reducing their supply to Europe beyond Ukraine by 65.3 mcm per day as further punishment.

It's because of that reduction yesterday that gas supplies to Serbia are reduced, not because of Ukraine's alleged non-payment.

There is a political reason behind this. Its Russia who is mocking the smaller slavic nations by playing with them with gas supply cuts.
But I do feel very sorry that regular people have to suffer in cold due to political games that Russia plays with the smaller nations like she did with Georgia this pas summer.

Hang on I thought you just signed a gazprom deal recently what for? to get this? oh no Russian reliability is failing again, Russia knows that it going to take a different route because they cant stop Ukraine joining NATO. This is the only way these bullies tend get it their way

Peace out!!

On 6 January 2009 17:07, Cygnus wrote:

"Serbia should sue the Ukraine."

What?? I assume that the Serbian companies has an agreement with the Russian supplier(s), right? So if anyone is going to sue someone, it should be Serbian companies suing the Russian suppliers for breach of contract.
--

1) "Well, not 100% accurate... Gazprom confirmed receipt of payment of 1.5 billion, but about 0.5 penalty for ongoing late payments has not been transferred and Ukraina has not intention to comply with this despite of a contract stipulating it!"
(The Swiss, 6 January 2009 18:12)

My words were scrupulously accurate. Naftogaz has paid for the gas it has been supplied with, the penalty fees issued by Gazprom were not.

But you chose to miss the main point. Gazprom has a contract to supply gas to Rosukrenergo - not Naftogaz. Gazprom should be punishing Rosukrenergo not the people of Ukraine and now us. If Rosukrenergo then chooses to punish Naftogas, so be it.

2) "The 65.3 cm3 reduction is representing the gaz intended for Europe but shiphoned by Ukraina."
(The Swiss, 6 January 2009 18:12)

That is the excuse issued by Gazprom disguising some very underhand trickery.

The reality is, that Gazprom promised to the EU that it would guarantee gas supplies, and now it is deliberately reducing supplies BELOW those contracted to exert pressure on Ukraine. Gazprom is deliberately making those of us in Serbia and elsewhere suffer hoping that the EU will put pressure on Ukraine to capitulate.

3) "And last but not least, if you are blaming the serbian govnt, then the same should be applied to all european govnt since as far as am aware off 80% of european needs is coming out of russia!"
(The Swiss, 6 January 2009 18:12)

Then you are mistaken about my words and thoughts.

4) "Ukraine is stalling negotiations with Russia for a new contract (tricky dicky failed to mention that) as well as late payments."
(mark, 6 January 2009 18:27)

See above. This is not a business disagreement any longer over unpaid bills. This is Mother Russia throwing her political weight around on the international stage.

5) "If they dont wish to negotiate than Russia is within its rights not to sell to ukraine."
(mark, 6 January 2009 18:27)

Correct. However, is Gazprom within its rights to cut supplies that it has contracted with others?

6) "Ukraine is stealing serbia's gas as well as the rest of the region."
(mark, 6 January 2009 18:27)

"Stealing" is a strong and unproven word. Gazprom has said it is taking the dispute to the Stockholm arbitration court. If they determine Ukraine was 'stealing' gas, then Ukraine should be punished. But if the court declares that Russia was in the wrong, then what????

Nevertheless, how would you feel if Stankom Gas refuses to supply you with gas that you've paid for because your neighbour hasn't paid his bill?

7) "Thanks to Kostunica we will soon have a pipeline that bypasses the gas thieves."
(mark, 6 January 2009 18:27)

A pipeline that makes Serbia even more beholden to the political whims of Moscow. Super!

There is an issue... and that is that other news stations are reporting that Serbia, Bulgaria, BiH, Croatia, Greece and FYR Macedonia get NO gas now. Scary if you think about it. Slovakia is in crisis. Austria's supplies are down 90%, and Romania's 75%. Conclusion? Russia owning gas is like owning Europe's blood.

Serbia needs to choose it's trading partners more carefully. The only thing Russia has done is back Serbia in it's fight to keep Kosovo. Russia is no friend of Serbia. Russia only cares about Russia. Tadic, rescind the recent Gazprom deal while you still can!

Serbia should sue the Ukraine. Just because the Ukraine does not want to pay it's gas bill to Russia does not mean millions of Serbian residents should be freezing.

this is the most funny news of these days!I hope that you do enjoy the russian show,in serbia!

"Tricky Dicky it may be true Ukraine paid a middle man but the fact still remians gazprom has not had its money, so its up to the Ukraine to find where the payment has gone. In the UK if you don't pay a supplier for goods thay put you on stop."
(dave (UK), 6 January 2009 22:18)

Rosukrenergo, the middleman, is 50% owned by Gazprom. Gazprom accepts that the money has been paid - and secure.

What hasn't been paid is a fine levied by Gazprom on Naftogas. But that is frankly irrelevant in the grander scheme of things. (I'm happy to go into more detail on this, but do not want to get bogged down.)

Russia is attempting to effect regime change in Kyiv through destroying the credibility of either the President or the PM or both in the eyes of the Ukrainian public. It is also trying to present Ukraine as an unreliable partner to NATO/EU.

By it's own admission, Gazprom has reduced gas contracted to countries beyond Ukraine by 20% because it thinks it is losing export taxes due to Ukrainian theft. http://www.gazprom.com/eng/news/2009/01/33513.shtml Theft has not be proven. It is just Gazprom propaganda to make itself look cool. Only the Stockholm court of arbitration can make that call with any sincerity.

The real reason for making this 20% cut in supply, is to provoke the EU into turning against Kyiv and telling them to capitulate.

You're OK in the UK, less than 5% of your gas comes from Russia. Here in Serbia, we are being made to suffer (being punished) because of some Russian attempt to be noticed on the world stage. Brilliant!

And just look how many Serbs still think Russia is still their friend!!!!

Reread 1984. Russia are living in orwellian world right now. And when the powerholders has been brainwashing their slaves long enough, they lost the touch to reality, they become zombies themselves. Russians are TV nation, they are educated, healed and fed through Putler media. Please be aware!

i repeat this is only a farce..it's a pice of dramatic theatre organized by the Ukro-russian...
a) Ukraine want that Eu contribute to their bills with the Kremlin because it's bankrupt
b) The Kremlin is afraid that North Stream ia collapsing or slowing without his agent Schroder and needs some more terror in order to move the costruction of the pipeline on

So they have organized all this stuff....
open your eyes boys and girls...

This crises should once again cause Serbs to wake up and realise that it should be making "true friends and allies" with its EU neighbours and NOT Russia!

Also how come Serbia has not built up any gas reserves? Probably because of corruption once again and the endless failure of it's economic system.

All countries affected by gas shortage should team up together and send an international convoy to Ukraine to help supervise ghe gas pipelines. It is not acceptable that Ukraine is stealing gas destined for Europe.

adrian,

"Well, if i order a pizza at home, i don`t care who delivers it. It`s the problem of the pizza maker. But he HAS to deliver it! His problem, not mine."

This is a wrong appoach in such an extreme situation. It's a joint problem to be solved together. When you owe a bank USD 100 it is really your problem but when you owe them USD 1 000 000 it's already the bank's problem.

So if you really need your pizza this time you will have to be involved coz despite your "admiration" about Russia this sort of pizza is delivered from there.

Merry Christmas !

Ukraine is stalling negotiations with Russia for a new contract (tricky dicky failed to mention that) as well as late payments. If they dont wish to negotiate than Russia is within its rights not to sell to ukraine. Ukraine is stealing serbia's gas as well as the rest of the region. Thanks to Kostunica we will soon have a pipeline that bypasses the gas thieves.

where´s dinkic ?

where´s superpower usa ?

seems like holiday for all the clowns ...

how goes the old saying ? when the landlord speaks, the farmer is quiet ....

I remember during the Reagan administration. He warned the EU to not bend over to Soviets on the pipelines or they will always be blackmailed by the "soviet rotten bear"!

Come again!?

Anyone who believes this is a Russian/Ukrainian issue is totally naive.
Russia has seized the opportunity to demonstrate to Europe (both EU and nonEU) that they are a force to reckon with. What should only be a business relationship is a lot more when it is a "needed" commodity. This is their way of saying we are willing to shut the valves if we do not agree in future disputes.

That is in the business relationship countries, for Serbia who has entered the master/servant relationship since Russian now owns 51% of the energy sector things will be evern worse.
Russia supplies est 25% of the energy needs for Europe, however Europe has the capability of reducing that need (costly yes) to counteract Russian control. Serbia does not have that option because Russia is the one who will decide where "their company" will purchase energy to supply Serbia.

The Swiss,

I am perfectly aware of the ownership and business registration of Rosukrenergo. 50% is held by Raffeissen Bank on behalf of Centragas Holding AG (both Austrian registered). Centragas Holding is a front company for Group DF, 90% owned by Dmitry Firtash.

You tell me who he works for other than himself and his own bank balance.

Nevertheless, if you read Gazprom's own press statments over the past week, they treat Rosukrenergo as a subsidiary.

Gazprom has every right to stop supplying gas to Ukraine if Ukraine:
a) doesn't pay it's bills,
b) refuses to sign a new contract,
c) acts illegally.

Gazprom does NOT have the right to stop supplies to other customers because it is in dispute with Naftogaz.

Today, RIA Novosti reported that the TOTAL missing gas is 86m m3. At the highest rate of $450, Naftogaz now owes Gazprom $38.7 million. How many people are going cold in Europe because Gazprom has temporarily lost a maximum of £38.7 million?

This is NOT about money, late payments, unsigned contracts, or alleged theft (still not proven) gas. It's about Russia exerting political dominance over Ukraine.

I'm glad so many Serbs are prepared to go cold to support this. Personally, I'd like to stay warm and let Russia and Ukraine sort out the problems elsewhere.

"Well, not 100% accurate... Gazprom confirmed receipt of payment of 1.5 billion, but about 0.5 penalty for ongoing late payments has not been transferred and Ukraina has not intention to comply with this despite of a contract stipulating it!
The 65.3 cm3 reduction is representing the gaz intended for Europe but shiphoned by Ukraina. "

The Swiss, maybe you`r right, but who cares? A contract is a contract and has to be fulfilled. And even if the russians have to bring their gas in their pockets to us, that`s not our problem!

I cannot help myself noticing that the most hit by the crisis are the Russia's little balkanic slavic brothers, the bulgarians. I feel very sorry for my friends in Sofia. I was hoping for Serbia to have more luck given the fact that it was receiveing gas through Hungary.

Now, like Seneca's Medea, I am asking myself Cui prodest? To whom this crisis situation may be of use? Not to the importing countries.
Some alternative source:

http://ecfr.eu/content/entry/commentary_andrew_wilson_ukraine_russia_gas_crisis

@dave(UK):

"They resume a service when you pay your bill. At the end of the day you pay your bills and ensure who you owe money to gets it, thats business"

Well, if i order a pizza at home, i don`t care who delivers it. It`s the problem of the pizza maker. But he HAS to deliver it! His problem, not mine.

The Swiss

Thanks for shortening my post ! The sooner other Europeans stop demonizing Russia and start to think rationally the sooner this banditism on the road is eliminated.

Let's wait for a couple of days when EU will reveal as I believe a neutral point of view on the events. In Russia the most used word concerning Ukraine is STEALING. This is a half bankrupt state with zero reputation. So they have sent such a Christmas present to EU.

Everything will be OK coz Gasprom has no reverse transmittion. They move only forward.

Swiss

"I repeat, russian aren't saints and I have quiet a good experience in dealing with them because I was working in Russia for 6 years, but they can't be blame for all what is happening in the world!!"

Thanks a lot ! I think exactly the same but the problem is that people usually want to hear only what they want to hear. Besides Russians are quite a good target to spit all the times to prove oneselve that he is something better. In any case thank you for your resonable comments here !

I think you are all missing the point here.

How come there is no strategic reserve of gas? Not even a weeks worth in store and, apparently not even a full days worth of gas in store. That is the real story here. What the hell have srbijagas been doing running down the reserves so badly?

On 6 January 2009 21:06, Cygnus wrote:

"If Ukraine is indeed not guilty, then it has not to be afraid to let independent observers in and they will show that Ukraine is not stealing gas..."

I must be missing something obvious here... If Russia is suspect that Ukraine is siphoning gas of the pipelines, what is stopping Russia from inviting its European and Balkan customers over for a visit? Show them the pipeline(s) going into Ukraine, the pressure gauges, the amount of gas they are pumping in. Then the customers can all call back to their respective gas companies, ask "How much gas do we receive?". Then it is all a matter of simple math to sum up all the gas received by Poland, Germany, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc, etc, and see if the total matches the amount that Russia is piping through Ukraine. No need to involve the Ukrainians at all. The numbers will speak for themselves.
--

Rote Kapelle,

You can tell me a thousand times what wonderful friends the Serbs are to Russia, but where's my gas? I'm getting cold here in my flat and your 'friendship' is not proving to be very useful.

This morning, Christmas Day of all days, Gazprom cut off ALL supplies through Ukraine. They say Naftogaz shut the pipes. The trouble is, The pipes were turned off on Russian soil. How did the Ukrainians manage to do that?

It's because of that reduction yesterday that gas supplies to Serbia are reduced, not because of Ukraine's alleged non-payment.
(Tricky Dicky, 6 January 2009

Well, not 100% accurate... Gazprom confirmed receipt of payment of 1.5 billion, but about 0.5 penalty for ongoing late payments has not been transferred and Ukraina has not intention to comply with this despite of a contract stipulating it!
The 65.3 cm3 reduction is representing the gaz intended for Europe but shiphoned by Ukraina.

Gazprom is not punishing anybody but am sure if you had the possibility to sell your products at $ 500 to a reliable and paying customer (Europe) why would you sell at $ 200 to an unreliable customer (ukraine). This has been going on for years and Ukraina simply do not want to pay more,(they just refused $ 250) but the days of sponsoring are over and Ukraina should get their acts together and realize it once for all!! They are actually sitting on the transit route and penalizing all Europe with their attitude.
Had Russia the opportunity to use another route, Ukraina would aldready be dead by now!
Russian are certainly not saints and are using this commercial dispute to give a lesson to Ukraina but that's the way unfortunately the world function these days!

And last but not least, if you are blaming the serbian govnt, then the same should be applied to all european govnt since as far as am aware off 80% of european needs is coming out of russia!

Typical stance to blame the Russian... but it's the Ukraine who are stealing gas as we speak... they recieve the cheapest gas yet they still don't pay. The sooner Russia by-passes th Ukraine with a new pipeline the better!!!

Tricky Dicky

"And just look how many Serbs still think Russia is still their friend!!!!"

Dirty Tricky ! You will be surprised to know that much more Russians and me as one of them still think that Serbia is still our best friend on the Continent.

One month ago at an exibition in Moscow a representative of a Bulgarian company started to tell me that her country had always been our closest friend and ally. She was shocked when I said that it is Serbia which has never betrayed us and reminded her that Bulgaria had fought on our side way back in 19-th century when we were setting them free from the Turks. She was more surprised when I said that in both world wars they were on the German side and now they are a NATO member.

So wether you like it or not we are still very close with the Serbs.
.

Gas supply shortages have been noticed in Romania, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Bulgaria and Slovakia... and maybe even more... this is not an issue between Serbia and Russia... Russia said they are going to cut the Ukraine's supply of gas and the Ukraine said they will siphon off the gas they need from the European supplies from the gas that is routed through the Ukraine. The Ukraine made that threat quite openly and it looks like they are making going through with it.

All the more reason to get the south stream pipeline bypassing Ukraine built quickly.

First of all Merry Christmas to all of you (including the B92 team)! I hope you all lightened the badjnak :)

@Rote Kapelle :I agree that it is a more difficult situation, but you have to see also that we are simple clients with no influence over inner-CIS (or ex-soviet) problems.

Cui prodest Adrian?
I think that the reading of the article of your link may open some minds...
I defenetly agree with most of the things the author wrote ..

@adrian, timisoara thats more of a delivery issue once you have paid. From what the UK media is saying its over millions owed in unpaid bills.

Tricky its not reported here about middle men etc i can only comment on whats reported here in the UK.

For certain Putin has stuck is oar in so a political game is being played as well.

This in my humble opion is a good reason to move away from Gas for energy. Not sure if Nuclear is the answer but maybe its time all the leaders in the Europe start looking at solutions for a different power source.
One thing for certain its the average joe blogs in the street who cop the problems caused by our political leaders.

If Ukraine is indeed not guilty, then it has not to be afraid to let independent observers in and they will show that Ukraine is not stealing gas... but suspiciously enough they have refused to do that.

Very irresponsible behaviour from the Ukraine. I hope an alternative will be found soon, otherwise both Russia and the EU suffer!

According to SKY news in the UK the gas problem is down to un paid bills by Ukraine, however they do show a meeting between Putin and the head of Gazprom where Putin tells him to cut the gas.

Supplies to the west have Europe have so far been ok the report states the Balkans has no supply at all. We in the UK get some gas from the North sea and Norway it should not cause us a major problem.

Tricky Dicky it may be true Ukraine paid a middle man but the fact still remians gazprom has not had its money, so its up to the Ukraine to find where the payment has gone. In the UK if you don't pay a supplier for goods thay put you on stop.

They resume a service when you pay your bill. At the end of the day you pay your bills and ensure who you owe money to gets it, thats business.

How does this effect the chances of south stream?? I think Russia will be looking for other routes to Europe.

There is no contract to supply gas to Ukraine. The old one expired. The dispute between Russia and Ukraine is about pricing. Gas was offerd at a price well below what the Europeans were paying, Ukraine rejected that offer, so russia gave them another offer. The price went up! Closer to what the Europeans were paying. This is Ukraine interferring with gas flow! Ukraine redirected g as to their pipes, and they have a 4 month supply!

This morning, Christmas Day of all days, Gazprom cut off ALL supplies through Ukraine. They say Naftogaz shut the pipes. The trouble is, The pipes were turned off on Russian soil. How did the Ukrainians manage to do that?
(Tricky Dicky, 7 January 2009 14:03)

It's good that you mentionned that the middleman is 50% own by Gazprom, as a matter of fact, this company is registered in Switzerland,so easy to check it

http://www.rosukrenergo.ch/eng/pub/company/company_history.html

... since you seemed to be well aware, do you know how is the second shareholder?? An Ukrainian oligarch, so now the question is to find on which side this oligarch is standing....., you might dispute the fact that Ukraina didn't pay the full bills, mainly the penalty, ok, but you can't certainly deny the fact that until 31st of december there wasn't any shortage in the pipeline and Gazprom warned Ukraine many times that a new contract need to be signed. You can't also deny the fact that Ukraina refuses to pay $ 250 whereas Europe is paying $ 500! This is their absolute right but then they should source it elsewhere and let the gaz going thru to Europe.
Unfortunately Europe is as always sleeping and wake up when the things are out of hand!
The north Stream as pushed for by Gazprom and Germany has still not started for environmental reasons, but fortunately soon to kick off

http://www.nord-stream.com/en/

Let's see then how Ukraina will play once they are alternative routes...

I repeat, russian aren't saints and I have quiet a good experience in dealing with them because I was working in Russia for 6 years, but they can't be blame for all what is happening in the world!!

To Orthodox

You are welcome...after my stay in Russia, I could write a book about them :)

To Tricky Dicky

Gazprom has every right to stop supplying gas to Ukraine if Ukraine:
a) doesn't pay it's bills,
b) refuses to sign a new contract,
c) acts illegally.

well you said it.... all three points are correct, so I don't get you....
You are equally right in saying that Russia can't stop the delivery to other customers, well explain to me how, if Ukraine is shiphoning it all the time... (confirmed by SGS.

Schroeder was so right a few years back to push for an alternative route and thanks god it will start now!!

You are equally right in saying that Russia wants to have some influence on Ukraine, like so many other big powers in this world, starting with the US,equally want to have their sphere of influence, the so called "balance of power"!
Ukraine was maybe a bit to brave and to early in listening to the US/Nato eventhough the majority of Ukrainian people do not want to see Nato around at all!

Last but not least, you can't be so naive in believing that Dmitry Firtash is acting for his own purpose, why would he then hide behind the RZB structures whereas on the other side the Gazprom representatives are officialy named!
You certainly remember the involment of the current ukrainian govnt in some past shady gaz deals with Russia!

So, let's hope that EU will finally wake up and push a deal through which most probably will be a disaster for Ukraine now that they have refused any offers from Gazprom!

The Swiss,

It seems you have failed to recognise there are two separate issues at stake.

The first is Russia's punishment of Ukraine for contractual difficulties.

The second is Russia's punishment of the rest of Europe.

Here is the latest news concerning the issue: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090108/twl-russia-ukraine-gas-talks-collapse-am-d9fddae.html
"EU Energy Commissioner Andris Piebalgs said Moscow had refused to sign up to a deal, which would have restored supplies to around a dozen EU nations, at least in part because Moscow wanted its own observers stationed in Ukraine."

So, Moscow is refusing to pump gas because it wants its own monitors in Ukraine. It doesn't trust independent EU monitors it seems. Russia is happy for millions in Europe go without gas until it gets its own way over a group of monitors.

Russia is now arguing with the EU over this, but I guess it's still all Ukraine's fault.

Russia is now arguing with the EU over this, but I guess it's still all Ukraine's fault.
(Tricky Dicky, 8 January 2009 20:47)

Well Tricky, it depens which press you look at...and just wondering where you read that Russian want their own inspectors, it seems that they want inspectors from different EU countries and gaz companies...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/01/08/europe.russia.gas.meeting/index.html

CNN might be wrong too...

I still don't get your point unless your are working for a charity fund! If I had the choice to sell my goods to a higher price to a realiable customer rather than to a lower price to an unreliable bankrupt customer, not even a question...,
Now, again, I agree with you that a strong political game is going behind and this is neither upto you nor to me to try to understand! Russki salad!

Ukraine like Georgia stupidely thought that because the US and EU were talking warmly to them they could allow themselves to act like spoiled children, deadly mistake!!

All this is at the end will help the Russians to have free of charge a tight control of their gaz delivery to EU and nothing will flow to Ukraine...

The Swiss,

Once again, you seem to be conflating two issues into one.

Russia has proposed a permanent "International expert commission on transit of natural gas through the territory of Ukraine". It has reluctantly, and belatedly offered to allow the same inspectors to work on the Russian side of the border too. This is a proposal for the future.

It has nothing to do with the independent EU monitors due in Ukraine today which are being sent to monitor the current problem.

After spending most of yesterday afternoon telling the European Parliament and the international press that Gazprom will start pumping gas as soon as the independent EU monitors arrived, Aleksey Miller then promptly backtracked and demanded that Russian monitors accompany the EU independent monitors. Hardly an independent monitoring mission if it's loaded with Russians!

The report I gave was an AFP report quoting the Czech Industy Minister and the EU Energy Commissioner. Russia has effectively told the EU that it doesn't trust its monitors.

I am not a charity. I am an individual sitting in a flat with no heating. I have no heating because Gazprom cut off my supply of gas - by their own admission. They think that punishing me is a good way to do business with Europe.

The Swiss,

You wrote, and I missed earlier:
"Last but not least, you can't be so naive in believing that Dmitry Firtash is acting for his own purpose, why would he then hide behind the RZB structures whereas on the other side the Gazprom representatives are officialy named!"

What nonsense are you writing of? Are you suggesting that a multi-billionaire is not working in his own interests first and foremost? And if you feel he is working for somebody else, just who are you thinking of?

And finally, you seem to think your belief holds some validity because he "hides behind the RZB structures". What a load of nonsense. He is listed on the Rosukrenergo website as Chairman of the Supervisory Board. http://www.rosukrenergo.ch/eng/pub/company/management.html If this is the best 'evidence' you can offer to support your belief, his "hiding", then I suggest you do some research, find the facts, and alter your opinion a little.