Naturalized Bosnian recalls Guantanamo

hey Behar, you certainly forgot to say that Guantanamo Bay is a serbian exclave, where the serbian secret service is directing serbian agents in US-american uniforms only to make them look bad...right?

"This must be serbian propaganda at its worst. America doesn't torture people but help them agains undemocratic forces. Thank god for America and NATO!
(Behar Avdijaj, 22 December 2008 21:28)"

Behar,

Please check the following links to see that your US masters do torture people (your Muslim brothers and sisters seem to be among their favorite victims) themselves or they outsource it to regimes who have quite lean law on torture (these include various EU/NATO countries that all have such a pro-US and pro-NATO attitude like you display here).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

Behar Avdijaj,

A small addition to my previous posting (I just hope B92 will not censor it). Maybe you should try to contact Mustafa Ait Idir to ask him if this story is actually true and report back to us once you know the thruth (even if B92 is wrong). What this person described in the article is not new and has been known for quite a while. Calling this Serbian propaganda at its worst almost sounds you blame Serbia and the Serbs (as usual) for all missery in the world. It also shows that you are in complete denial of any wrong doing by the US and numerous of its citizens. I had thought you would have stood up for your abused Muslim brother. I hope that one day this man and many others can sue the US for their suffering and that all people responsible, including GWB, will appear in an international court for these and other war crimes and crimes against humanity.

to Canadian Serb:

Because he went there for "jihad" during the conflict. It was america who allowed the jihadists to come there. alija gave them bosnian citizenships.

I don't believe one bit about this guy being tortured in prison. These allegations could not be possible in a democratic society, especially in North America. If his story was true, he would press charges.

The real question is, why is he returning to Bosnia and why doesn't he return to the Arab world.

"Gitmo" was really a blight on our honor -- and i don't give a hoot what the usual anti-america, anti-democracy people do say of don't. the thing is that america (USA) and not just me have tried to pave a way to support human rights around the world, and then we go to war in iraq (as much as i hated saddam insane) and at least a hundred thousand people die, THeir people, not to mention our own. and we, or rather the bush regime, in OUR name destroys civil liberties as much as they can, makes a joke of the geneva convention, and on and on.

we, the US, cannot be so-called leaders of the free world, then make a mockery of what freedom and liberty are all about.

and then as always happens, the anti-democratic forces around the world say: "see -- america is evil, so who cares what we do?" and bush and co., in MY name, give such types a lot of ammunition.

sad, sad sad.

i appreciate all people around the world who support us, believe me, i do. but that support needs to be critical, not "america, right or wrong." that doesn't help anyone.

now we have obama, thank god!!, and some kind of chance to make good. to close gitmo, to restore basic rights for pow's and all prisoners, to restore civil rights for all people here. the last 8 years has been hard for us, hard for the world. and don't think we were or are unaware.

i know that "Bushi" was cheered in Tihrana, just about the time we were visiting. we were told that people there "loved" bush, and my frnd and i tried to hold our tongues. in truth, i believe that people "loved" what bush represented to them -- freedom and independence for kosovo/a, a basic continuation of the albright/clinton doctrine, you can say. i really do appreciate the support for my country shown by my albanian colleagues, and anyone else, for that matter. just please keep that admiration critical.

i also want to apologize (whoever might be listening) to those who have been interned at gitmo, and all who have been killed and tortured in our name. it is a sin. i can't very well demand justice from my serbian collegues (and others) and then ignore it on my own terrain.

thank you.

roberto
frisco

In case anyone is interested in discussing facts -- not just prejudices -- the court documents in the legal case that led to Mustafa Ait Idir's release are posted on the website of the US lawfirm that agreed to represent the six Bosnian-Algerians pro bono (without a fee) before the US Supreme Court
http://www.wilmerhale.com/boumediene

For anyone interested, I particularly recommend these document
http://www.wilmerhale.com/files/upload/boumediene_traverse.pdf

This document shows the flimsiness of the allegations brought by the US against Mr. Ait Idir and the five others detained with him. It also discloses for the first time the shocking facts about the threats used by the US in order to force the Bosnian authorities to hand over the six men. Faced with blackmail, the Bosnian government had no choice but to give in to the American demands. They did so in violation of Bosnia's constitution and acting against a unanimous ruling by Bosnia's highest court -- which had ordered the men to be released because a five-month investigation had turned up no credible evidence against them.

Instead of being released, as the Court had ordered, the six men were hooded and shackled and were flown to Guantanamo, where they spent the last seven years in brutal detention and yes, being tortured. Anyone who has trouble believing that, should take the time to watch the award-winning documentary: "Torturing Democracy"
http://torturingdemocracy.org/
The documentary is now being broadcasted on a number of US public television stations despite efforts by the Bush administration to suppress it.

Mr. Ait Idir and all but one of the others were ordered released last month, when the facts were finally brought before a US Federal Court (against the wishes of the Bush administration). The US Court came to the same conclusion that the Bosnian courts had reached sever years earlier -- there was no evidence sufficient to justify their detention. They had been arrested at US demand and then kidnapped on the basis of a single, unsubstantiated tip from an unidentified, anonymous source, they had been held without trial and had suffered for seven years for no good reason.

The torture carried out at the detention camp at Guantanamo, and at secret sites elsewhere, is a serious violation of international law. Someday the high US officials and military commanders responsible for this will have to face justice for what they ordered and tolerated. There cannot be one rule for Milosevic, Milutinovic and Gen. Mladic, and a different standard for Bush, Cheney, and Gen. Myers.

Please, Behar.
You can't just dismiss everything you don't like as Serbian propaganda.
I've been following the story and its outcome for a week now, on Sarajevo's daily newspaper "Dnevni Avaz" site.
If you can read Serbo-Croatian here is an article.

http://www.dnevniavaz.ba/dogadjaji/aktuelno/sedam-godina-nelegalnog-zatvora-zahvaljujuci-lagumdziji

Six Bosnian citizens were released from Guantanamo Bay last week. 3 of them decided to return to Bosnia.

First one to talk was Boudela Hajj.

http://www.dnevniavaz.ba/dogadjaji/aktuelno/zasto-su-nas-prodali

Claims of torture are very simmilar, except there is no mention him being held on -25 C.

Weather they are telling the truth or not is another question, but one thing is for sure. It's not Serbian propaganda.

To Roberto.
I don't really agree with you when you say that US "tried to pave a way to support human rights around the world, and then we go to war in iraq..." etc.
So, all was fine until Iraq, and Bush is the only one to blame?

I don't think so.
It's also true that US directly or indirectly supported some of the world's most brutal regimes in South and Central America, for decades.
Summary executions of tens thousands, death squads, insane generals leading military juntas...are not in a short supply.

Bush's regime "makes a joke of the geneva convention,.."

Funny that you mention Geneva convention.
US never ractified it in Congress, so it never became binding for the US.
Fallujah was not done according to Geneva Convention, but I guess, that doesn't apply to Americans anyway.
Nobody can be charged for what is a war crime according to G. Convention in the US.
What about outside?
No. As the US doesn't recognize jurisdiction of the permament War Crime Court over American Citizens. In fact they were going around few years ago, applying all kind of pressure to many governments to sign an agreement not to extradite any US Citizens to this court.
On the hight of that hipocracy, they even came to Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia demanding from them to extradite their citizens to Hague Tribunal (included Croatia, as Gotovina was at large at that time), and in the same time to sign agreement not to extradite Americans accused of the same crimes.
Who can possibly explain this to their electorate?

This doesn't go apply only to war crimes, but to pretty much everything else, too.

International Court of Justice (also known as World Court) is a UN body established with purpose to resolve disputes between states by peaceful and legal means.
US withdrew its acceptance of Court's compulsory jurisdiction over all UN member states, in 1984.
No. International laws don't apply to the US.
My point is. You can't try Americans for whatever they do in any international court. They are above the law.
For all intents and purposes US can only be described by a term "rouge state".

And that, Robert, has nothing to do with Bush.

Don't get me wrong here. I don't think that Americans are any worse then other powerful countries. Powers do what they want, and don't accept accountability.
That's not a new problem.
Who could have force Hitler's Germany to respect international law and not annex Sudetenland from Czechs or not to attack Poland?
Should US decline in power and China rise as many seem to think, problem will be the same.
How do we restrict power?

This must be serbian propaganda at its worst. America doesn't torture people but help them agains undemocratic forces. Thank god for America and NATO!

None of the acts he described would meet the Bush administration’s definition of “torture”. So I find it plausible those things occurred there to some people.

Solzhenitsyn claimed the sleep deprivation and stress positions were the worst tortures he experienced under Stalin, and he was subjected to some pretty terrible stuff. The Bush administration obviously disagrees.

I too, hope that Obama starts to treat the rest of the world as a partner, and not just as weaker countries to export and push around.

Does anyone really believe this guy? He was put in a room that was -25 C? How do you get a room to be -25C in the middle of the Caribbean. The food he ate met his religious dietary needs and I'm pretty sure animals would drink Pepsi and eat sundae cones as he was fed. His behavior right now is following in line with the Manchest Documents. I don't know why he was in Guantanamo nor do I care, but his allegations are the furthest thing from the truth.

This must be serbian propaganda at its worst. America doesn't torture people but help them agains undemocratic forces. Thank god for America and NATO!

I don't believe one bit about this guy being tortured in prison. These allegations could not be possible in a democratic society, especially in North America. If his story was true, he would press charges.

The real question is, why is he returning to Bosnia and why doesn't he return to the Arab world.

Does anyone really believe this guy? He was put in a room that was -25 C? How do you get a room to be -25C in the middle of the Caribbean. The food he ate met his religious dietary needs and I'm pretty sure animals would drink Pepsi and eat sundae cones as he was fed. His behavior right now is following in line with the Manchest Documents. I don't know why he was in Guantanamo nor do I care, but his allegations are the furthest thing from the truth.

to Canadian Serb:

Because he went there for "jihad" during the conflict. It was america who allowed the jihadists to come there. alija gave them bosnian citizenships.

hey Behar, you certainly forgot to say that Guantanamo Bay is a serbian exclave, where the serbian secret service is directing serbian agents in US-american uniforms only to make them look bad...right?

Behar Avdijaj,

A small addition to my previous posting (I just hope B92 will not censor it). Maybe you should try to contact Mustafa Ait Idir to ask him if this story is actually true and report back to us once you know the thruth (even if B92 is wrong). What this person described in the article is not new and has been known for quite a while. Calling this Serbian propaganda at its worst almost sounds you blame Serbia and the Serbs (as usual) for all missery in the world. It also shows that you are in complete denial of any wrong doing by the US and numerous of its citizens. I had thought you would have stood up for your abused Muslim brother. I hope that one day this man and many others can sue the US for their suffering and that all people responsible, including GWB, will appear in an international court for these and other war crimes and crimes against humanity.

"Gitmo" was really a blight on our honor -- and i don't give a hoot what the usual anti-america, anti-democracy people do say of don't. the thing is that america (USA) and not just me have tried to pave a way to support human rights around the world, and then we go to war in iraq (as much as i hated saddam insane) and at least a hundred thousand people die, THeir people, not to mention our own. and we, or rather the bush regime, in OUR name destroys civil liberties as much as they can, makes a joke of the geneva convention, and on and on.

we, the US, cannot be so-called leaders of the free world, then make a mockery of what freedom and liberty are all about.

and then as always happens, the anti-democratic forces around the world say: "see -- america is evil, so who cares what we do?" and bush and co., in MY name, give such types a lot of ammunition.

sad, sad sad.

i appreciate all people around the world who support us, believe me, i do. but that support needs to be critical, not "america, right or wrong." that doesn't help anyone.

now we have obama, thank god!!, and some kind of chance to make good. to close gitmo, to restore basic rights for pow's and all prisoners, to restore civil rights for all people here. the last 8 years has been hard for us, hard for the world. and don't think we were or are unaware.

i know that "Bushi" was cheered in Tihrana, just about the time we were visiting. we were told that people there "loved" bush, and my frnd and i tried to hold our tongues. in truth, i believe that people "loved" what bush represented to them -- freedom and independence for kosovo/a, a basic continuation of the albright/clinton doctrine, you can say. i really do appreciate the support for my country shown by my albanian colleagues, and anyone else, for that matter. just please keep that admiration critical.

i also want to apologize (whoever might be listening) to those who have been interned at gitmo, and all who have been killed and tortured in our name. it is a sin. i can't very well demand justice from my serbian collegues (and others) and then ignore it on my own terrain.

thank you.

roberto
frisco

"This must be serbian propaganda at its worst. America doesn't torture people but help them agains undemocratic forces. Thank god for America and NATO!
(Behar Avdijaj, 22 December 2008 21:28)"

Behar,

Please check the following links to see that your US masters do torture people (your Muslim brothers and sisters seem to be among their favorite victims) themselves or they outsource it to regimes who have quite lean law on torture (these include various EU/NATO countries that all have such a pro-US and pro-NATO attitude like you display here).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

In case anyone is interested in discussing facts -- not just prejudices -- the court documents in the legal case that led to Mustafa Ait Idir's release are posted on the website of the US lawfirm that agreed to represent the six Bosnian-Algerians pro bono (without a fee) before the US Supreme Court
http://www.wilmerhale.com/boumediene

For anyone interested, I particularly recommend these document
http://www.wilmerhale.com/files/upload/boumediene_traverse.pdf

This document shows the flimsiness of the allegations brought by the US against Mr. Ait Idir and the five others detained with him. It also discloses for the first time the shocking facts about the threats used by the US in order to force the Bosnian authorities to hand over the six men. Faced with blackmail, the Bosnian government had no choice but to give in to the American demands. They did so in violation of Bosnia's constitution and acting against a unanimous ruling by Bosnia's highest court -- which had ordered the men to be released because a five-month investigation had turned up no credible evidence against them.

Instead of being released, as the Court had ordered, the six men were hooded and shackled and were flown to Guantanamo, where they spent the last seven years in brutal detention and yes, being tortured. Anyone who has trouble believing that, should take the time to watch the award-winning documentary: "Torturing Democracy"
http://torturingdemocracy.org/
The documentary is now being broadcasted on a number of US public television stations despite efforts by the Bush administration to suppress it.

Mr. Ait Idir and all but one of the others were ordered released last month, when the facts were finally brought before a US Federal Court (against the wishes of the Bush administration). The US Court came to the same conclusion that the Bosnian courts had reached sever years earlier -- there was no evidence sufficient to justify their detention. They had been arrested at US demand and then kidnapped on the basis of a single, unsubstantiated tip from an unidentified, anonymous source, they had been held without trial and had suffered for seven years for no good reason.

The torture carried out at the detention camp at Guantanamo, and at secret sites elsewhere, is a serious violation of international law. Someday the high US officials and military commanders responsible for this will have to face justice for what they ordered and tolerated. There cannot be one rule for Milosevic, Milutinovic and Gen. Mladic, and a different standard for Bush, Cheney, and Gen. Myers.

Please, Behar.
You can't just dismiss everything you don't like as Serbian propaganda.
I've been following the story and its outcome for a week now, on Sarajevo's daily newspaper "Dnevni Avaz" site.
If you can read Serbo-Croatian here is an article.

http://www.dnevniavaz.ba/dogadjaji/aktuelno/sedam-godina-nelegalnog-zatvora-zahvaljujuci-lagumdziji

Six Bosnian citizens were released from Guantanamo Bay last week. 3 of them decided to return to Bosnia.

First one to talk was Boudela Hajj.

http://www.dnevniavaz.ba/dogadjaji/aktuelno/zasto-su-nas-prodali

Claims of torture are very simmilar, except there is no mention him being held on -25 C.

Weather they are telling the truth or not is another question, but one thing is for sure. It's not Serbian propaganda.

To Roberto.
I don't really agree with you when you say that US "tried to pave a way to support human rights around the world, and then we go to war in iraq..." etc.
So, all was fine until Iraq, and Bush is the only one to blame?

I don't think so.
It's also true that US directly or indirectly supported some of the world's most brutal regimes in South and Central America, for decades.
Summary executions of tens thousands, death squads, insane generals leading military juntas...are not in a short supply.

Bush's regime "makes a joke of the geneva convention,.."

Funny that you mention Geneva convention.
US never ractified it in Congress, so it never became binding for the US.
Fallujah was not done according to Geneva Convention, but I guess, that doesn't apply to Americans anyway.
Nobody can be charged for what is a war crime according to G. Convention in the US.
What about outside?
No. As the US doesn't recognize jurisdiction of the permament War Crime Court over American Citizens. In fact they were going around few years ago, applying all kind of pressure to many governments to sign an agreement not to extradite any US Citizens to this court.
On the hight of that hipocracy, they even came to Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia demanding from them to extradite their citizens to Hague Tribunal (included Croatia, as Gotovina was at large at that time), and in the same time to sign agreement not to extradite Americans accused of the same crimes.
Who can possibly explain this to their electorate?

This doesn't go apply only to war crimes, but to pretty much everything else, too.

International Court of Justice (also known as World Court) is a UN body established with purpose to resolve disputes between states by peaceful and legal means.
US withdrew its acceptance of Court's compulsory jurisdiction over all UN member states, in 1984.
No. International laws don't apply to the US.
My point is. You can't try Americans for whatever they do in any international court. They are above the law.
For all intents and purposes US can only be described by a term "rouge state".

And that, Robert, has nothing to do with Bush.

Don't get me wrong here. I don't think that Americans are any worse then other powerful countries. Powers do what they want, and don't accept accountability.
That's not a new problem.
Who could have force Hitler's Germany to respect international law and not annex Sudetenland from Czechs or not to attack Poland?
Should US decline in power and China rise as many seem to think, problem will be the same.
How do we restrict power?

None of the acts he described would meet the Bush administration’s definition of “torture”. So I find it plausible those things occurred there to some people.

Solzhenitsyn claimed the sleep deprivation and stress positions were the worst tortures he experienced under Stalin, and he was subjected to some pretty terrible stuff. The Bush administration obviously disagrees.

I too, hope that Obama starts to treat the rest of the world as a partner, and not just as weaker countries to export and push around.