"Database for Kosovo cultural heritage"

Here we go. Now the occupiers are trying to rewrite history, with the help of their colonialist masters.
No matter what kind of gibberish they write on their data base, they will never be able to change the truth.
That truth is, that there is almost zero archaeological evidence of albanian culture in Kosovo, all towns and streets have Serbian names, all gravesites are Serbian, almost all religious monuments are Serbian (this is why the albanians burned 150 of them so far), the name Kosovo is a Serbian word derived from 'Kos' which is a blackbird. The name 'Kosova' means nothing in either the Serbian or albanian languages, it is fake, just like this data base will be and just like this 'supervised independence'.
We Serbs know the true history of Kosovo, and will make sure our children know it, and their children, and their children...
Kosovo is Serbia! Remember that.

Beqiri said that the Kosovo government treats all monuments and properties, historical or spiritual, as the "cultural property of Kosovo".

Hmmm... If this is true why have they allowed so many orthodox monasteries and churches to be destroyed by albanians? I think it's better if someone else protects these holy places otherwise a database won't be needed in a couple of years.

Here is one example of how a mob of albanians is "keeping and protecting the cultural property of Kosovo" by burning it down...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsSswNz7lBU

Looks like the Albanians are trying to change actual historical facts with their new data base. If one already exists, why waste time and money on another? Serbs don't need Albanians to tell them where their monasteries are. Maybe the K_Government can show the exact Serbian land they stole in their new data base?

And if this database is going to be scholarly and correct, then Serbian monasteries and other holy sites are going to have to be labeled "Serbian", and not this so-called "Illyrian-Byzantine" thing that the Tourism Ministry tried to pull last year.

Tell me, Serbs on the list, since you insist there is no need for another database, does the current one include Muslim and Catholic heritage or only Orthodox? That seems to be the issue.

I'm glad the Kosova govt is compiling the database. It will document the 150 or so destroyed or damaged orthodox churches since 1999, when some Albanian nutcases attacked them. And it will also document the 215 mosques destroyed or damaged by the official Serbian armed forces (ironically still pretending to be a "yugoslav" army) in 1999.

In my opinion, there is room for a deal. The independent govt of Kosova accept its responsibilities and pay for the reconstruction of the 150 orthodox churches (there appears to have been some movement on that front), and the independent Serbian govt next door also accept its responsibilities (!!) and pay for the reconstruction of the 215 mosques (and while they're at it, perhaps also the 120,000 Albanian homes, the one fifth of all K Albanian housing that they destroyed in 1999, a large reason for the kind of social crisis post-1999 that inevitably backfired on so many innocent Serbs).

Sorry but I will dissapoint you. There is no Albanian heritage in Kosovo. There is only cultural heritage of medieval Serbian state and heritage of turkish empire. Turkish monuments are not Albanian. They just use those objects but are not theirs.

This database is just another albanian plan of changing history in Kosovo. Couple months ago we could read that serbian monasteries and churches are of "byzantine- albanian" style. When those churches were built there was no Albanians in Kosovo at all.

This is just provocative action from Priština. They've crossed the line!

"Noel Malcolm, Kosovo: short history- the first INDEPENDNET scientific work on Kosova’s history. Enjoy!"

Yes, Ben, a good book for Western readers. I'm sure you know that Malcolm's book is critical of both Serbian as well as Albanian historical revisionism; not to mention him not being much of an enthusiastic supporter of the Illyrian-myth, which he neither proves nor disproves, but concludes as serving only "sentimental interest to Kosovo Albanians today" (page 40, end of chapter 2).

But you knew that.

Ben
"The entire history on Kosova is exclusively from Serbian histographic sources.

As you all know Kosova has always been mainly Albanian. "

French survey of Kosovo i Metohija from XVI century shows 1% of Albanian population.

Uncles you prove your statements they remain propaganda blights.

There appear to be many "errors" on the Serbian data base, hence, the need for a more accurate and expanded one, to include Catholic and Moslem cultural sites.

The entire history on Kosova is exclusively from Serbian histographic sources.

As you all know Kosova has always been mainly Albanian.

Time has comes that Kosovars have their say on THIER history.

Stop the Serbian propaganda that was dominating for decades.

The other bell must be heard. You cannot complain that it’s not a fair request this one, do you???

Noel Malcolm, Kosovo: short history- the first INDEPENDNET scientific work on Kosova’s history. Enjoy!

Michael John,

Cultural heritage sites in Serbia are all prized as part of the state, regardless of them being Catholic, Muslim, Evangelical, Protestant, Jewish or other. Whats at hand here, is a renegade circus attempting to show the world cultural importance, which has nothing to do with their ideology and intellect.

I have met and spoken with Mr. Beqiri on many occassions, he is characterized as intelligent and very hard working. This person knows his stuff.

DimTuc,

How dare you say something that makes so much sense?

That'll be the day when the Serb government accepts their responsibilities and pays for the rampant destruction they've done in Kosova to their former citizens. Or is that too sensible to be seen in fruition?

-Jetoni

I seached the web for evidence of any destroyed mosques in Kosovo but couldn't find anything. Anyone that knows where this info can be found? Submit a link, please! If anyone should pay for damages in Kosovo albanians should turn to the americans. They are the one that killed thousands of serbs and albanians and leveled Kosovo and Serbia to the ground.

DimTuc, you also probably mean that the international community will pay for the destroyed churches in Kosovo and not the albanian government since they don't have the proper funds.

'the kind of social crisis post-1999'

It's not "social crisis". no need to pull wool over our eyes, we're all cousins here, we understand eachother so well :)
Its called blood fued, medieval custom practiced by albanians against the serbs in this case, this is why albanians cant leave the serb burial places alone nine years after the war, and keep desecrating them. not to mention keeping serb women, men and children in enclaves behind barbed wire and under armed kfor escort.
and also, the serb cultural heritage that was built when there were no albanians in kosovo. in fact, six, seven centuries before albanians managed to form the first and only state in their history, albania. that was in 1913? or in 1912. i always forget :)

also, 250 mosques destroyed in 1999, you say? dont make me laugh. one day you deny you're even muslim, another you have 250 mosques, and we destroyed them all. please provide a credible link for that number or just don't write nonsense.
as for the topic, i'm awaiting with great impatience for this database and proof that there's a physical monument, one, anything that albanians built older than 100 years that links them to kosovo.
our jewel in the crown monuments are from the era of our empire in the 13 and 14th centuries.
just point me to one mosque, one fortress, one wall, one bridge one plaque with one coat of arms on one wall that albanians built in kosovo that has historical and national value for you, albanians. not turkish, mind, albanian. i would even go visit it, if it exists, but i hear people are attacked/lynched by albanians for speaking serbian outside the enclaves.

also i'll have you know that i consulted experts and they say white albanian alpine polar bears found in kosovo can't be considered as cultural heritage ;) experts say those bears are baloney.

(Mike, 22 December 2008 19:27)

Mike in science you prove or better fail to disapprove.


No one has ever proved that Albanians are not descendent of Illyrians. There is no proof of Albanian immigration in Balkans and as you know we live from the Ionian coast to Adriatic.

It would be very strange that ancient Greeks and Latin’s have not notice their “arrival” of their first neighbours- don’t you think???

Nevertheless, there is no such evidence.

Albanians do suffer of prejudice this is for sure.

People have no courage even to state obvious things: THERE IS NO PROOF OF THE ALBANIAN ARRIVAL IN BALKANS. This is a simple FACT. There is no room for: yes, but... there is no such evidence simple like that. No speculation on this- enough.

Said that, I don’t deny the fact that you need to ‘hold on’ something for your national pride. If we cannot hold on our autochthonism, in what can then hold the Slavic immigrants??? On air probably.

(rain, 22 December 2008 20:04)

Rian: you cannot say just French sources you have to say which French sources: names, authors, dates, context etc...

Noel Malcolm does.

It is independent scientific work. Go and read the book.

So Rian, as you say “Uncles you prove your statements they remain propaganda blights.”

Now the most ridiculous thing in the Serbian hisotgraphy is the fact that they pretend that Kosova was an empty place, a sort of ‘wild west’ that no one was living there and the entire flora and fauna was so happy to welcome the Serbian immigrants of late VII-IX A.C.

But Serbian histographs immediately face the problem: they have to place somewhere Albanians- you cannot speculate too much and put in doubt their ancient history and the fact of being autochthon (see above). Hence, they will place Albanians in mountains. And now is getting funny. Why the people would prefer to live in mountains having the walleye empty??? Slavs have arrived only on VII-IX cent AC. And from now on the propaganda goes on and it gets more and more ridiculous.

"Illyrian-Byzantine" thing that the Tourism Ministry tried to pull last year.

(Mike, 22 December 2008 19:41)

Mike fact is that the arrival of Slavic tribes in Balkans was tried to be controlled by Byzantine. The Christianity was the main weapon. The churches were the schools and Kosova was the most northern Byzantine province bordering with the Slavic immigrants.

Slavs were invited and encouraged to go to church and were Christianised and educated- and this process was performed mostly on the northern provinces of the Byzantine empire- Kosova. Here do not ignore the fact that the presence of the Albanian culture was live until late 50s of XX cent. until Nis and terminated with the mass deportations made by nationalist –communist regime of Rankovic . See Leo Freundlich (1913), Albania's Golgotha: Indictment of the Exterminators of the Albanian People.

Some of Slavs remained and after the creation of the Serbian national identity after some fierce wars Serbs manage to conquer Kosova.

Slavs didn’t brought in Balkans neither the Christianity neither the construction techniques- they find them and learned them by the ancient Balkanians: Greek, Illyrians and Latin’s.

You cannot speculate much with history- is there to remain.

First the Albanians steal Serbian land then they want to steal Serbian history.

What are you going to label these sites? Serbian or just plain Kosovo Orthodox which implies that they are Albanian Orthodox or something else just as inaccurate?

Hey Dim Tuc,

How many Serbian Orthodox churches dating back to when your ancesters still lived in Albania or Ottomon Turkey were torched in one March day less than 5 years ago in the presence of the UN and NATO?

I had the pleasure of working for 2 years in Kosovo. I travelled to quite a few places. I saw nothing of what could even be described as Kosovo or Albanian cultural monuments. What I did see was beautiful Orthodox buildings. Then on 17th march 2004 I saw beautiful Orthodox buildings in flames and artefacts stolen. I saw no Muslim monuments destroyed or burnt. In truth I saw nothing either in the manners or habits of Albanians that I recognised as cultured nor indeed any monuments. Unless you count the monstrosities in Serbista (pardon my poor spelling) erected as a monument to Adem Yashari . I deeply regret the UK Government is wasting my Tax £s on such a project.

Ben, you're really stretching the truth if you think modern Albanians are the direct, uninterrupted, and unadulterated descendents of a long dead race of people nearly 2000 years ago. I don't discount that there is some connectivity between Albanians and Illyrians as Malcolm suggests, but if you honestly think that Albanians have not mixed with Slavs, Greeks, Avars, Turks, Italians, Bulgars and other invaders of the Balkans - as every other group has, your theory quickly falls apart. As for the Byzantine link, I recommend Constantine Porphyrogennitos' De Administrano Imperio, if you haven't read it already. No one disputes the arrival of the Slavs in the 6th century, and no one suggests Albanians came from somewhere else, but nowhere in his work is there any suggestion of a flowering Illyrian civilization that was co-opted into this rag-tag group of Slavic migrant groups.

There's history, there's historical memory, and there's historical revisionism. We want to straddle the first two discourses, not the last two.

Not content with stealing Serbian land, the Albanian irredentists are attempting to steal their history and culture in an attempt to rewrite history. That to me is the lowest of the low.

It is a systemic attempt to erase a whole people and culture from the collective memory and from the landscape. It must be roundly condemned.

"Slavs didn’t brought in Balkans neither the Christianity neither the construction techniques- they find them and learned them by the ancient Balkanians: Greek, Illyrians and Latin’s.

You cannot speculate much with history- is there to remain.
(ben, 22 December 2008 21:09) "

Ben, there's Fantasy Island stuff but that takes the biscuit.

In reading Noel Malcolm's book on Kosova/o, he states he is neither anti-Serb or pro-Albanian. He is just anti-myth, furthermore, he states that the Serbs have far more myths about Kosova/o than the Albanians.

See: Page 1 of Preface, Kosovo, A Short History Paperback ed., Updated with a New Preface.

I would like to add, as for albanian orthodox heritage, its location is in southern Albania. Orthodox heritage in Kosovo is wiht no doubt Serbian heritage.

Allbanians are not descendants of Illyrians. They are Ilirian decsendanst as much as today FYR Macedonians are descendants of Alexander the Great.

Albanian habitat is in the Caucasus in the region between today Azerbaijan and Russian state of Dagestan.

There is a time after an invasion when the imposed culture needs to be resisted and eventually over-thrown. However, if the imposed culture stays long enough it becomes heritage.

It is quite right that Turkish monuments are properly incorporated in the database - they should not be treated as a blot on the landscape even if they do not represent the culture that preceded the invasion.

ben

Ben, your history leson was quite amusing. Rather than taking your word for how the people of Kosovo ended up there read from a credible source like Wikipedia. Many if not all your claims will be proven inacurate.
Ben, I don't know what you do for a living but my guess is that you are not a history teacher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo

A number of people asked me for evidence of the 215 mosques destroyed by the official Serbian armed forces (misnamed "Yugoslav" army) in Kosova in 1999, presumably based on the idea that only Albanians, not Serbs, not even violently nationalist ones. So here is an easily obtainable source, which itself if you open it lists several other sources:

Destruction of cultural heritage in Kosovo: a postwar report
Andras Riedlmayer
http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/2000/1124.html

Now needless to say none of that justifies the mirror image destruction of Serbian Orthodox churches and heritage that followed, but acknowledging the original sin not only brings balance, but also a bit of context to what may have led to the second sin, and sets the causality right.

I note also that when several people questioned the destruction of 215 mosques, they did not question my assertion that the serbian armed forces destroyed or burnt 120,000 Albanian homes (try multiplying that figure by about 4 people to a home and get an idea of the extent of destruction of K Albanian society that Slobo's thugs were responsible for.

In response to where I wrote this may help us understand the 'the kind of social crisis post-1999' that inevitably, and unjustifiably, boomeranged against so many innocent Serbs (after the war criminals and collaborators and cowardly looters had made their way back to Belgrade upon the untouched 400 tanks, the ones NATO could never seem to find ...), 'smile' writes:

"It's not "social crisis". no need to pull wool over our eyes, we're all cousins here, we understand eachother so well :)
Its called blood fued, medieval custom practiced by albanians against the serbs in this case'"

I don't mind what you call it smile since I did not write that in order to provide any justification to the terror experienced by many serbs after 1999, so let's call it blood feud if you prefer. However, understanding context is hardly irrelevent. Why don't you also admit to the "blood feud" carried out "in this case" by "Serbs" (ie, the official organs of the Serbian state and their paramilitary offshoots) against the Albanians in 1998-99, or are you in the same denial as so many on the list, even though there is such massive evidence of villages where 100 people at a time, men, women and children, were summarily wiped out, not to mention expelling 850,000 from their country (yeh I know, that's just CNN propaganda too), and not to mention the destruction of the 120,000 homes I mentioned. Now why do you suppose I called that a 'social crisis" to set in context the subsequent "blood feud"? Because when about 500,000 return to wrecked homes in the villages, not to mention to slaughtered livestock, looted and pillaged homes, and slaughtered relatives, it may well cause a reaction. And quite separate to the more violent and more unjustifiable reactions, one simple reaction might be to pack up and head for Pristina, where they might think, well, since the serbian army has just destrotyed everything we own, maybe we'll make do with these Serb homes. And so the "magic" by which the Albanian population doubled after the war does not have to be "explained" by childishness about people coming from ... Albania (yeh, right), but by the simple logic of what often happens after horrific and destrructive wars and slaughters.

Meanwhile, MikeC wrote:

"If anyone should pay for damages in Kosovo, albanians should turn to the americans. They are the one that killed thousands of serbs and albanians and leveled Kosovo and Serbia to the ground. DimTuc, you also probably mean that the international community will pay for the destroyed churches in Kosovo and not the albanian government since they don't have the proper funds."

Whatever. I do not think the US will cough up funds for anyone, but my general opinion is not so different to yours on that, the difference is that you think the crimes of the US mean we should whitewash or actively deny the crimes by the Serbian regime against the Albanians. It's funny how you think Serbia bears no responsibility for the destruction its own armed forces carried out in Kosova. Personally, I think the US and NATO states should compensate Serbia for the destruction they carried out in the bombing, but why they should pay for destruction the Serbian army carried out in Kosova - destruction which had nothing to do at all with defending their own people from the crusie missiles, rather, it just exacerbated it - well, I don't know.

Enjoy your denial. At least many Albanians seem to be moving on. Since the indepdnence declaration, probably a year of less violence against minorities than any year since 1999, despite the odd church burglary which happens everywhere. No room for complacency of course, but let's all be thankful it's a little better.

Mike C.,

For your personal edification,
Professor Andras Riedlmayer of Harvard University testified against Slobodan Milosevic at the Hague. The testimony dealt with the Milosevic's involvement in the destruction of Mosques and Islamic Libraries in Kosova during 1999.

"Historical Memory", an interesting expression, one that certainly could be misused by revisionists.

Mike, I don't know what your educational background is, but I strongly suspect History was not part of your curriculum.

it seems perfectly obvious to me that both serbs and albanians have their own myths about their heritage. "kosovo is serbia" remains unintelligible to me and so does the relevance of ancient illyrians. serbian medieval kingdom has nothing to do with the modern serbian state and ancient illyrians have nothing to do with modern albanians. and i thought that the phrase "living in the past" was about the 1990's.

Ben,

I did indeed ask that question to my Greek friends when I was living in Thessaloniki. The attempt to portray one's contemprary society as a direct link to something ancient is certainly not particular to Albanians (Greeks, Romanians - the whole Dacian thing - and Italians). The Greek case lies between two extremes: on one end is the whole "we're the direct descendents of the Ancient Hellenes" argument. On the other the Fallmerayer Thesis: "Greeks today are nothing more than Hellenized Slavs and Armenians".

Most Greeks completely dismiss the latter, but at the same time, I find it hard pressed for anybody - Greeks, Italians, Albanians, Romanians, etc - to say that there is an unbroken line between some civilization way back in the mists of time and today. The idea that Albanians are majority Muslim (even if in name only) already questions a direct Illyrian link.

You're right on Malcolm's book though: he tries to dispel myths on both sides - both Serb and Albanian. I'm not saying the link is completely false and bogus, but that the link is one of many cultural links that make people who they are today. I mean, just look at the variety of food and drink shared between Serbs, Albanians, Greeks, Turks, and Bulgarians. Enough evidence points to shared histories and experiences. It's only when elites try to appropriate and sanitize history for their own ends (and every culture has done this) that conflict over who was where and who owns what spills into bloodshed.

Mike said:"The idea that Albanians are majority Muslim (even if in name only) already questions a direct Illyrian link. "

I have a serious question here. Nothing to do with politics. I have noticed this to be a phenomenon between Serbs and Greeks mostly. Maybe cuz I've been more in contact with them. I picked Mike's quote to illustrate it. To me personally, and I am willing to bet large amounts of money, and to 95% of the Albanians religion does not define who we are as a nation. I could care less if you call me budhist, hindu, orthodox, muslim, whatever you want. I and most Albanians do not care about religion. Hence you could have say 70% Albanians who are nominally muslims today. Yet prior to Turkish invasion you had 100% christian Albanians. Does that mean that we are less Albanian now than we were in Scanderbeg's time. Absolutely not. I come from a religiously mixed family, where some are orthodox, some catholics and some muslims. Are the the muslims and orthodox less Albanian than the catholics? Absolutely not. For us Albanians it is completely illogical and incomprehensible to connect religion with national identity. When it comes to us Albanians, any attempt to use religion to explain our national identity is a failed attempt.
So my question is: How come the Serbs identify their existence and their nationality with their church? I seriously fail to comprehend it.

P.S Mike I think religion is not always a valid argument to prove links between societies. If that was the case everyone would have to be a pagan, Greeks, Italians and Serbs included. Or I can use the fact that in Albania we still have pagan holidays that we still celebrate to link us with our pagan ancestors, the Illyrians. I think you would not see that as enough proof.

Also to counter your argument. If you claim that we have mixed with other cultures so we are not directly linked with the Illyrans, then the same could be said about the Serbs. They mixed with Albanians and Greeks and Romanians and Turks therefore they are not direct descendants of the slavs that made it to the balkans. As a result of this mixture they cannot claim Kosova to be theirs as the slavs that were there during those times are not the same as the Serbs. The Serbs forget that any historical claim they use against Albanians can be used against them. As usual we end up in a vicious circle. The problem with the Balkans is that in order to validate their own history, glory and claims, the balkan nations no matter who they are, see it as an absolute necessity to deny the history, glory and claims of their neighbors.

“... there is some connectivity between Albanians and Illyrians as Malcolm suggests, but if you honestly think that Albanians have not mixed with Slavs, Greeks, Avars, Turks, Italians, Bulgars and other invaders of the Balkans - as every other group has, your theory quickly falls apart. “
...
“There's history, there's historical memory, and there's historical revisionism. We want to straddle the first two discourses, not the last two.”
(Mike, 23 December 2008 00:21)

Mike, you are speculating again. Why would ask these questions to Albanians but not to Italians or Greeks.

Or only Albanians were occupied and potentially mixed???

If there are no proofs of the arrival of Albanians on the land where the Illyrians use to live then there is no place to speculate. Moreover as the language, costumes, tradition, in one word culture of the modern Albanians is the one of the ancient Balkanians- Illyrians where is the space for speculation???

For me it is much more mysterious the Athenians-Helens-Greek coinnection for eg.

There is space of historical truth and to bring down taboos.

Don’t you find incredible that the entire history of Kosova is only from one source- Serbian??? Malcolm’s book is the first independent work and is only of 1998. Don’t you think that there is plenty of space and need for work there??? It’s so obvious...

Johnny and Ben,

Both good points raised. I didn't mean to imply that Albanian = Muslim, and I've always thought that religion does not play as big a divide within Albanian society as in others. So apologies if I seemed to conclude that Islam is a major defining factor - hence my "(even if in name)"

And yes of course, if Albanians today are from mixed stock, the same applies to all others in the Balkans, hence the ridiculousness of one side trying to claim a piece of land over others.

And interestingly enough, the head of the Orthodox Church of Albania, Archbishop Anastassios, is a Greek. And from what I've heard, he's doing a marvelous job reconstructing the Orthodox Church in Albania. He's also an acclaimed academic too.

Dim Tuc,

Sorry, don't read every single post...guess I'm ignorant. I only respond to pathetic, vile and overtly biased comments coming from people that are bent on perverting the truth.

Dragan:
"Hey Dim Tuc,
How many Serbian Orthodox churches dating back to when your ancesters still lived in Albania or Ottomon Turkey were torched in one March day less than 5 years ago in the presence of the UN and NATO?"

I'll pass on Dragan's ignorant pseudo-"historical" stuff, but on the actualquestion of how many churches were attacked in March 2004, I believe from memory it was about 35.

So since Dragan and anyone else who has ever read my posts knows very well I strongly condemn these acts and have never provided cover for them, what is your point? I assume your point is that these actions in March 2004 (or post-June 1999) gives retrospective justification to the far greater acts of massacre and destruction that the officialSerbian armed forces (and not just Albanian thugs as in the case of 2004) carried out in 1998-99 (and for that matter the whole decade of 1989-99)? We had to massacre thousands and and expel hundreds of thousands of "terrorists" bcause we knew in advance they intended to do that to us later, the excuse of every oppressor.

Though Dragan would of couse be aming those whodenied that any of that ever happened, with his head in the sand, or even justiying it as heroic stuff, so you're not really one of those with any credibility on this list as far as consistency and defence of human rights goes.

The idea that Albanians are majority Muslim (even if in name only) already questions a direct Illyrian link.

(Mike, 23 December 2008 18:30)

I do agree with you Mike. History can help in reconciliation as well as if miss used can make canyons. Thought, people feel more comfortable and easy to question the Albanian history but not to the others. Paradox???

However, I have to correct you on the above Mike.

Albania being always part of Byzantium and Roman Empire has been mainly catholic.

As you know Constantinople didn’t fall because of a military assault it was rather a political agreement of Byzantium with Ottomans: you will keep military and political power but I will have the cultural and religious power. Byzantium preferred to get a deal with Ottomans but not to ask for help form Vatican.

With it, any attempt of the Albanian intellectuals and religious leaders to dissociate from Greek church culture was oppressed mainly by Turks who honoured the agreement until the end - go figure that someone would have survived the islamisation if Turks pursued that policy for 5 centuries.

Albanian Orthodox Church was recognised Autocephalous only in late 20s of XX cent. The first schools in Albanian were allowed by Turks only in the end of XIX century...

On other hand there was the great pressure from the Slavs for assimilation.

Islam was a perfect shelter for the protection of the national identity- where mostly endangered.

As a matter a fact the number of Muslim Albanians is much higher on east and north- lands bordering with Slavs. As soon as you move a bit deep into the Albanian lands the number of Christians grows exponentially.

The only thing is that fortunately or unfortunately we didn’t had inquisition- otherwise Albanians would not have been the “only” one to whom the descends would be questioned Spanish and Latin link would have been “lost” too ;))

And to conclude, every muslim Albanian needs to scratch a bit into his family past and will find his Christian roots.

My family name is Christian but I am in name from muslim family. My mom is muslim too but she is coming form Marku family (or Morke in dialect). In the villages where my grand fathers are coming there are names like: the church’s hill, or the valley of pigs and still all members of the village are namely muslim.
No one can build on the Church’s hill as it is considered sacred- and this is the only reason that is giving some hope for scientific explorations there. No archaeological investigations have ever been done to find out the basements of those churches. I am talking in the lands in ex Yugo- political reasons behind this blunt no-interest of the Gov??? Maybe...

Yes I know it’s funny- I laugh too ;)) but this is how it is- for us Nation was in first place.

I brought here my personal story only as illustration- I am know that there are plenty of them...

P.S. Clive: you are just one of many that was ignoring the land that was walking on

malcolm x:

""kosovo is serbia" remains unintelligible to me and so does the relevance of ancient illyrians. serbian medieval kingdom has nothing to do with the modern serbian state and ancient illyrians have nothing to do with modern albanians"

1000% agree with malcom x (and love the name). and likewise "alexander the great" (who?) has nothing to do with modern Greeks or macedonians, and the kingdom of david and solomon some 3000 years agohas nothing to do with the modern Jewish people, to name just two other common myths that either cause untold irate anger and nonsense, in the first case, and biblical level suffering for the modern palestinian people in the second.

Director Vera did not mention that the database she has is old Yugo database wich she can show to Serb people as up to date.And don't be surprised to learn that most Orthodox churches are build on top of old Bizantine churches foundations,plus old text books suggest Albanians where Christians when the Serbs still lived in the Russian steppes.Merry Christmas and a peaceful New Year.

"Albanian habitat is in the Caucasus in the region between today Azerbaijan and Russian state of Dagestan.
(Goran, 24 December 2008 03:22)"

Highduke?

Mike I don't know about the job Anastasios is doing when it comes to religion. I can tell you that he's been close to removal a couple of times. He's been mixing religion with politics as late as 2 years ago. (There was this incident were with his blessing the graves of children were dug and their bones were claimed to be of Greek soldiers. Medical analysis showed they were kids. The church wouldn't allow the police to retrieve the bones an re-bury them for almost a month). This is not the kind of thing that a man of God should be involved in.

"The entire history on Kosova is exclusively from Serbian histographic sources.

As you all know Kosova has always been mainly Albanian"

Ok, lets even agree on both of this statements though some could argue over them. This still does not cover the fact the the most important Serbian monument, built by Serbian rulers exist on the territory of another country. Ok, lets even agree on the fact that those monuments are not Serbian but Bizantyne :) I am going that far now just to say something else ... and it is that Kosovo in general has a problem of not possesing Kosovian national image, it just does not exist, it is not in any way different from Albanian national image and identity. Maybe the only difference could be that Kosovians define themselves more in opposite to Serbs, the way Serbs in Middle Ages defines themselves in opposite to the Turks. All in all, what is happening is logical, a nation is in serious need for national culture ... Books need to be written for kids at school, people need to believe in something which is not only the state but bigger, more important. Serbs as well as many others, did it beg. 19 century and based it on Kosovo myth. But this myth and these churches are not enough for the building of national identity of 2 nations, especially when Kosovo people already have a strong and proud national model, that of what they truly are, Albanians ... if they want to be Kosovars they need to hurry up and write those history books, and fast ... :) I hope I made my point in a friendly way and I made it clear. I am just trying to be objective here ...

The entire history on Kosova is exclusively from Serbian histographic sources.

As you all know Kosova has always been mainly Albanian.

Time has comes that Kosovars have their say on THIER history.

Stop the Serbian propaganda that was dominating for decades.

The other bell must be heard. You cannot complain that it’s not a fair request this one, do you???

Noel Malcolm, Kosovo: short history- the first INDEPENDNET scientific work on Kosova’s history. Enjoy!

There appear to be many "errors" on the Serbian data base, hence, the need for a more accurate and expanded one, to include Catholic and Moslem cultural sites.

Tell me, Serbs on the list, since you insist there is no need for another database, does the current one include Muslim and Catholic heritage or only Orthodox? That seems to be the issue.

I'm glad the Kosova govt is compiling the database. It will document the 150 or so destroyed or damaged orthodox churches since 1999, when some Albanian nutcases attacked them. And it will also document the 215 mosques destroyed or damaged by the official Serbian armed forces (ironically still pretending to be a "yugoslav" army) in 1999.

In my opinion, there is room for a deal. The independent govt of Kosova accept its responsibilities and pay for the reconstruction of the 150 orthodox churches (there appears to have been some movement on that front), and the independent Serbian govt next door also accept its responsibilities (!!) and pay for the reconstruction of the 215 mosques (and while they're at it, perhaps also the 120,000 Albanian homes, the one fifth of all K Albanian housing that they destroyed in 1999, a large reason for the kind of social crisis post-1999 that inevitably backfired on so many innocent Serbs).

I have met and spoken with Mr. Beqiri on many occassions, he is characterized as intelligent and very hard working. This person knows his stuff.

DimTuc,

How dare you say something that makes so much sense?

That'll be the day when the Serb government accepts their responsibilities and pays for the rampant destruction they've done in Kosova to their former citizens. Or is that too sensible to be seen in fruition?

-Jetoni

Mike C.,

For your personal edification,
Professor Andras Riedlmayer of Harvard University testified against Slobodan Milosevic at the Hague. The testimony dealt with the Milosevic's involvement in the destruction of Mosques and Islamic Libraries in Kosova during 1999.

"Historical Memory", an interesting expression, one that certainly could be misused by revisionists.

Mike, I don't know what your educational background is, but I strongly suspect History was not part of your curriculum.

Looks like the Albanians are trying to change actual historical facts with their new data base. If one already exists, why waste time and money on another? Serbs don't need Albanians to tell them where their monasteries are. Maybe the K_Government can show the exact Serbian land they stole in their new data base?

(Mike, 22 December 2008 19:27)

Mike in science you prove or better fail to disapprove.


No one has ever proved that Albanians are not descendent of Illyrians. There is no proof of Albanian immigration in Balkans and as you know we live from the Ionian coast to Adriatic.

It would be very strange that ancient Greeks and Latin’s have not notice their “arrival” of their first neighbours- don’t you think???

Nevertheless, there is no such evidence.

Albanians do suffer of prejudice this is for sure.

People have no courage even to state obvious things: THERE IS NO PROOF OF THE ALBANIAN ARRIVAL IN BALKANS. This is a simple FACT. There is no room for: yes, but... there is no such evidence simple like that. No speculation on this- enough.

Said that, I don’t deny the fact that you need to ‘hold on’ something for your national pride. If we cannot hold on our autochthonism, in what can then hold the Slavic immigrants??? On air probably.

(rain, 22 December 2008 20:04)

Rian: you cannot say just French sources you have to say which French sources: names, authors, dates, context etc...

Noel Malcolm does.

It is independent scientific work. Go and read the book.

So Rian, as you say “Uncles you prove your statements they remain propaganda blights.”

Now the most ridiculous thing in the Serbian hisotgraphy is the fact that they pretend that Kosova was an empty place, a sort of ‘wild west’ that no one was living there and the entire flora and fauna was so happy to welcome the Serbian immigrants of late VII-IX A.C.

But Serbian histographs immediately face the problem: they have to place somewhere Albanians- you cannot speculate too much and put in doubt their ancient history and the fact of being autochthon (see above). Hence, they will place Albanians in mountains. And now is getting funny. Why the people would prefer to live in mountains having the walleye empty??? Slavs have arrived only on VII-IX cent AC. And from now on the propaganda goes on and it gets more and more ridiculous.

"Illyrian-Byzantine" thing that the Tourism Ministry tried to pull last year.

(Mike, 22 December 2008 19:41)

Mike fact is that the arrival of Slavic tribes in Balkans was tried to be controlled by Byzantine. The Christianity was the main weapon. The churches were the schools and Kosova was the most northern Byzantine province bordering with the Slavic immigrants.

Slavs were invited and encouraged to go to church and were Christianised and educated- and this process was performed mostly on the northern provinces of the Byzantine empire- Kosova. Here do not ignore the fact that the presence of the Albanian culture was live until late 50s of XX cent. until Nis and terminated with the mass deportations made by nationalist –communist regime of Rankovic . See Leo Freundlich (1913), Albania's Golgotha: Indictment of the Exterminators of the Albanian People.

Some of Slavs remained and after the creation of the Serbian national identity after some fierce wars Serbs manage to conquer Kosova.

Slavs didn’t brought in Balkans neither the Christianity neither the construction techniques- they find them and learned them by the ancient Balkanians: Greek, Illyrians and Latin’s.

You cannot speculate much with history- is there to remain.

Beqiri said that the Kosovo government treats all monuments and properties, historical or spiritual, as the "cultural property of Kosovo".

Hmmm... If this is true why have they allowed so many orthodox monasteries and churches to be destroyed by albanians? I think it's better if someone else protects these holy places otherwise a database won't be needed in a couple of years.

Here is one example of how a mob of albanians is "keeping and protecting the cultural property of Kosovo" by burning it down...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsSswNz7lBU

First the Albanians steal Serbian land then they want to steal Serbian history.

What are you going to label these sites? Serbian or just plain Kosovo Orthodox which implies that they are Albanian Orthodox or something else just as inaccurate?

'the kind of social crisis post-1999'

It's not "social crisis". no need to pull wool over our eyes, we're all cousins here, we understand eachother so well :)
Its called blood fued, medieval custom practiced by albanians against the serbs in this case, this is why albanians cant leave the serb burial places alone nine years after the war, and keep desecrating them. not to mention keeping serb women, men and children in enclaves behind barbed wire and under armed kfor escort.
and also, the serb cultural heritage that was built when there were no albanians in kosovo. in fact, six, seven centuries before albanians managed to form the first and only state in their history, albania. that was in 1913? or in 1912. i always forget :)

also, 250 mosques destroyed in 1999, you say? dont make me laugh. one day you deny you're even muslim, another you have 250 mosques, and we destroyed them all. please provide a credible link for that number or just don't write nonsense.
as for the topic, i'm awaiting with great impatience for this database and proof that there's a physical monument, one, anything that albanians built older than 100 years that links them to kosovo.
our jewel in the crown monuments are from the era of our empire in the 13 and 14th centuries.
just point me to one mosque, one fortress, one wall, one bridge one plaque with one coat of arms on one wall that albanians built in kosovo that has historical and national value for you, albanians. not turkish, mind, albanian. i would even go visit it, if it exists, but i hear people are attacked/lynched by albanians for speaking serbian outside the enclaves.

also i'll have you know that i consulted experts and they say white albanian alpine polar bears found in kosovo can't be considered as cultural heritage ;) experts say those bears are baloney.

In reading Noel Malcolm's book on Kosova/o, he states he is neither anti-Serb or pro-Albanian. He is just anti-myth, furthermore, he states that the Serbs have far more myths about Kosova/o than the Albanians.

See: Page 1 of Preface, Kosovo, A Short History Paperback ed., Updated with a New Preface.

Sorry but I will dissapoint you. There is no Albanian heritage in Kosovo. There is only cultural heritage of medieval Serbian state and heritage of turkish empire. Turkish monuments are not Albanian. They just use those objects but are not theirs.

This database is just another albanian plan of changing history in Kosovo. Couple months ago we could read that serbian monasteries and churches are of "byzantine- albanian" style. When those churches were built there was no Albanians in Kosovo at all.

This is just provocative action from Priština. They've crossed the line!

There is a time after an invasion when the imposed culture needs to be resisted and eventually over-thrown. However, if the imposed culture stays long enough it becomes heritage.

It is quite right that Turkish monuments are properly incorporated in the database - they should not be treated as a blot on the landscape even if they do not represent the culture that preceded the invasion.

"Noel Malcolm, Kosovo: short history- the first INDEPENDNET scientific work on Kosova’s history. Enjoy!"

Yes, Ben, a good book for Western readers. I'm sure you know that Malcolm's book is critical of both Serbian as well as Albanian historical revisionism; not to mention him not being much of an enthusiastic supporter of the Illyrian-myth, which he neither proves nor disproves, but concludes as serving only "sentimental interest to Kosovo Albanians today" (page 40, end of chapter 2).

But you knew that.

And if this database is going to be scholarly and correct, then Serbian monasteries and other holy sites are going to have to be labeled "Serbian", and not this so-called "Illyrian-Byzantine" thing that the Tourism Ministry tried to pull last year.

Here we go. Now the occupiers are trying to rewrite history, with the help of their colonialist masters.
No matter what kind of gibberish they write on their data base, they will never be able to change the truth.
That truth is, that there is almost zero archaeological evidence of albanian culture in Kosovo, all towns and streets have Serbian names, all gravesites are Serbian, almost all religious monuments are Serbian (this is why the albanians burned 150 of them so far), the name Kosovo is a Serbian word derived from 'Kos' which is a blackbird. The name 'Kosova' means nothing in either the Serbian or albanian languages, it is fake, just like this data base will be and just like this 'supervised independence'.
We Serbs know the true history of Kosovo, and will make sure our children know it, and their children, and their children...
Kosovo is Serbia! Remember that.

Ben
"The entire history on Kosova is exclusively from Serbian histographic sources.

As you all know Kosova has always been mainly Albanian. "

French survey of Kosovo i Metohija from XVI century shows 1% of Albanian population.

Uncles you prove your statements they remain propaganda blights.

Not content with stealing Serbian land, the Albanian irredentists are attempting to steal their history and culture in an attempt to rewrite history. That to me is the lowest of the low.

It is a systemic attempt to erase a whole people and culture from the collective memory and from the landscape. It must be roundly condemned.

"Slavs didn’t brought in Balkans neither the Christianity neither the construction techniques- they find them and learned them by the ancient Balkanians: Greek, Illyrians and Latin’s.

You cannot speculate much with history- is there to remain.
(ben, 22 December 2008 21:09) "

Ben, there's Fantasy Island stuff but that takes the biscuit.

“... there is some connectivity between Albanians and Illyrians as Malcolm suggests, but if you honestly think that Albanians have not mixed with Slavs, Greeks, Avars, Turks, Italians, Bulgars and other invaders of the Balkans - as every other group has, your theory quickly falls apart. “
...
“There's history, there's historical memory, and there's historical revisionism. We want to straddle the first two discourses, not the last two.”
(Mike, 23 December 2008 00:21)

Mike, you are speculating again. Why would ask these questions to Albanians but not to Italians or Greeks.

Or only Albanians were occupied and potentially mixed???

If there are no proofs of the arrival of Albanians on the land where the Illyrians use to live then there is no place to speculate. Moreover as the language, costumes, tradition, in one word culture of the modern Albanians is the one of the ancient Balkanians- Illyrians where is the space for speculation???

For me it is much more mysterious the Athenians-Helens-Greek coinnection for eg.

There is space of historical truth and to bring down taboos.

Don’t you find incredible that the entire history of Kosova is only from one source- Serbian??? Malcolm’s book is the first independent work and is only of 1998. Don’t you think that there is plenty of space and need for work there??? It’s so obvious...

I seached the web for evidence of any destroyed mosques in Kosovo but couldn't find anything. Anyone that knows where this info can be found? Submit a link, please! If anyone should pay for damages in Kosovo albanians should turn to the americans. They are the one that killed thousands of serbs and albanians and leveled Kosovo and Serbia to the ground.

DimTuc, you also probably mean that the international community will pay for the destroyed churches in Kosovo and not the albanian government since they don't have the proper funds.

ben

Ben, your history leson was quite amusing. Rather than taking your word for how the people of Kosovo ended up there read from a credible source like Wikipedia. Many if not all your claims will be proven inacurate.
Ben, I don't know what you do for a living but my guess is that you are not a history teacher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo

Ben, you're really stretching the truth if you think modern Albanians are the direct, uninterrupted, and unadulterated descendents of a long dead race of people nearly 2000 years ago. I don't discount that there is some connectivity between Albanians and Illyrians as Malcolm suggests, but if you honestly think that Albanians have not mixed with Slavs, Greeks, Avars, Turks, Italians, Bulgars and other invaders of the Balkans - as every other group has, your theory quickly falls apart. As for the Byzantine link, I recommend Constantine Porphyrogennitos' De Administrano Imperio, if you haven't read it already. No one disputes the arrival of the Slavs in the 6th century, and no one suggests Albanians came from somewhere else, but nowhere in his work is there any suggestion of a flowering Illyrian civilization that was co-opted into this rag-tag group of Slavic migrant groups.

There's history, there's historical memory, and there's historical revisionism. We want to straddle the first two discourses, not the last two.

Michael John,

Cultural heritage sites in Serbia are all prized as part of the state, regardless of them being Catholic, Muslim, Evangelical, Protestant, Jewish or other. Whats at hand here, is a renegade circus attempting to show the world cultural importance, which has nothing to do with their ideology and intellect.

A number of people asked me for evidence of the 215 mosques destroyed by the official Serbian armed forces (misnamed "Yugoslav" army) in Kosova in 1999, presumably based on the idea that only Albanians, not Serbs, not even violently nationalist ones. So here is an easily obtainable source, which itself if you open it lists several other sources:

Destruction of cultural heritage in Kosovo: a postwar report
Andras Riedlmayer
http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/2000/1124.html

Now needless to say none of that justifies the mirror image destruction of Serbian Orthodox churches and heritage that followed, but acknowledging the original sin not only brings balance, but also a bit of context to what may have led to the second sin, and sets the causality right.

I note also that when several people questioned the destruction of 215 mosques, they did not question my assertion that the serbian armed forces destroyed or burnt 120,000 Albanian homes (try multiplying that figure by about 4 people to a home and get an idea of the extent of destruction of K Albanian society that Slobo's thugs were responsible for.

In response to where I wrote this may help us understand the 'the kind of social crisis post-1999' that inevitably, and unjustifiably, boomeranged against so many innocent Serbs (after the war criminals and collaborators and cowardly looters had made their way back to Belgrade upon the untouched 400 tanks, the ones NATO could never seem to find ...), 'smile' writes:

"It's not "social crisis". no need to pull wool over our eyes, we're all cousins here, we understand eachother so well :)
Its called blood fued, medieval custom practiced by albanians against the serbs in this case'"

I don't mind what you call it smile since I did not write that in order to provide any justification to the terror experienced by many serbs after 1999, so let's call it blood feud if you prefer. However, understanding context is hardly irrelevent. Why don't you also admit to the "blood feud" carried out "in this case" by "Serbs" (ie, the official organs of the Serbian state and their paramilitary offshoots) against the Albanians in 1998-99, or are you in the same denial as so many on the list, even though there is such massive evidence of villages where 100 people at a time, men, women and children, were summarily wiped out, not to mention expelling 850,000 from their country (yeh I know, that's just CNN propaganda too), and not to mention the destruction of the 120,000 homes I mentioned. Now why do you suppose I called that a 'social crisis" to set in context the subsequent "blood feud"? Because when about 500,000 return to wrecked homes in the villages, not to mention to slaughtered livestock, looted and pillaged homes, and slaughtered relatives, it may well cause a reaction. And quite separate to the more violent and more unjustifiable reactions, one simple reaction might be to pack up and head for Pristina, where they might think, well, since the serbian army has just destrotyed everything we own, maybe we'll make do with these Serb homes. And so the "magic" by which the Albanian population doubled after the war does not have to be "explained" by childishness about people coming from ... Albania (yeh, right), but by the simple logic of what often happens after horrific and destrructive wars and slaughters.

Meanwhile, MikeC wrote:

"If anyone should pay for damages in Kosovo, albanians should turn to the americans. They are the one that killed thousands of serbs and albanians and leveled Kosovo and Serbia to the ground. DimTuc, you also probably mean that the international community will pay for the destroyed churches in Kosovo and not the albanian government since they don't have the proper funds."

Whatever. I do not think the US will cough up funds for anyone, but my general opinion is not so different to yours on that, the difference is that you think the crimes of the US mean we should whitewash or actively deny the crimes by the Serbian regime against the Albanians. It's funny how you think Serbia bears no responsibility for the destruction its own armed forces carried out in Kosova. Personally, I think the US and NATO states should compensate Serbia for the destruction they carried out in the bombing, but why they should pay for destruction the Serbian army carried out in Kosova - destruction which had nothing to do at all with defending their own people from the crusie missiles, rather, it just exacerbated it - well, I don't know.

Enjoy your denial. At least many Albanians seem to be moving on. Since the indepdnence declaration, probably a year of less violence against minorities than any year since 1999, despite the odd church burglary which happens everywhere. No room for complacency of course, but let's all be thankful it's a little better.

Hey Dim Tuc,

How many Serbian Orthodox churches dating back to when your ancesters still lived in Albania or Ottomon Turkey were torched in one March day less than 5 years ago in the presence of the UN and NATO?

Dragan:
"Hey Dim Tuc,
How many Serbian Orthodox churches dating back to when your ancesters still lived in Albania or Ottomon Turkey were torched in one March day less than 5 years ago in the presence of the UN and NATO?"

I'll pass on Dragan's ignorant pseudo-"historical" stuff, but on the actualquestion of how many churches were attacked in March 2004, I believe from memory it was about 35.

So since Dragan and anyone else who has ever read my posts knows very well I strongly condemn these acts and have never provided cover for them, what is your point? I assume your point is that these actions in March 2004 (or post-June 1999) gives retrospective justification to the far greater acts of massacre and destruction that the officialSerbian armed forces (and not just Albanian thugs as in the case of 2004) carried out in 1998-99 (and for that matter the whole decade of 1989-99)? We had to massacre thousands and and expel hundreds of thousands of "terrorists" bcause we knew in advance they intended to do that to us later, the excuse of every oppressor.

Though Dragan would of couse be aming those whodenied that any of that ever happened, with his head in the sand, or even justiying it as heroic stuff, so you're not really one of those with any credibility on this list as far as consistency and defence of human rights goes.

malcolm x:

""kosovo is serbia" remains unintelligible to me and so does the relevance of ancient illyrians. serbian medieval kingdom has nothing to do with the modern serbian state and ancient illyrians have nothing to do with modern albanians"

1000% agree with malcom x (and love the name). and likewise "alexander the great" (who?) has nothing to do with modern Greeks or macedonians, and the kingdom of david and solomon some 3000 years agohas nothing to do with the modern Jewish people, to name just two other common myths that either cause untold irate anger and nonsense, in the first case, and biblical level suffering for the modern palestinian people in the second.

Mike said:"The idea that Albanians are majority Muslim (even if in name only) already questions a direct Illyrian link. "

I have a serious question here. Nothing to do with politics. I have noticed this to be a phenomenon between Serbs and Greeks mostly. Maybe cuz I've been more in contact with them. I picked Mike's quote to illustrate it. To me personally, and I am willing to bet large amounts of money, and to 95% of the Albanians religion does not define who we are as a nation. I could care less if you call me budhist, hindu, orthodox, muslim, whatever you want. I and most Albanians do not care about religion. Hence you could have say 70% Albanians who are nominally muslims today. Yet prior to Turkish invasion you had 100% christian Albanians. Does that mean that we are less Albanian now than we were in Scanderbeg's time. Absolutely not. I come from a religiously mixed family, where some are orthodox, some catholics and some muslims. Are the the muslims and orthodox less Albanian than the catholics? Absolutely not. For us Albanians it is completely illogical and incomprehensible to connect religion with national identity. When it comes to us Albanians, any attempt to use religion to explain our national identity is a failed attempt.
So my question is: How come the Serbs identify their existence and their nationality with their church? I seriously fail to comprehend it.

P.S Mike I think religion is not always a valid argument to prove links between societies. If that was the case everyone would have to be a pagan, Greeks, Italians and Serbs included. Or I can use the fact that in Albania we still have pagan holidays that we still celebrate to link us with our pagan ancestors, the Illyrians. I think you would not see that as enough proof.

Also to counter your argument. If you claim that we have mixed with other cultures so we are not directly linked with the Illyrans, then the same could be said about the Serbs. They mixed with Albanians and Greeks and Romanians and Turks therefore they are not direct descendants of the slavs that made it to the balkans. As a result of this mixture they cannot claim Kosova to be theirs as the slavs that were there during those times are not the same as the Serbs. The Serbs forget that any historical claim they use against Albanians can be used against them. As usual we end up in a vicious circle. The problem with the Balkans is that in order to validate their own history, glory and claims, the balkan nations no matter who they are, see it as an absolute necessity to deny the history, glory and claims of their neighbors.

The idea that Albanians are majority Muslim (even if in name only) already questions a direct Illyrian link.

(Mike, 23 December 2008 18:30)

I do agree with you Mike. History can help in reconciliation as well as if miss used can make canyons. Thought, people feel more comfortable and easy to question the Albanian history but not to the others. Paradox???

However, I have to correct you on the above Mike.

Albania being always part of Byzantium and Roman Empire has been mainly catholic.

As you know Constantinople didn’t fall because of a military assault it was rather a political agreement of Byzantium with Ottomans: you will keep military and political power but I will have the cultural and religious power. Byzantium preferred to get a deal with Ottomans but not to ask for help form Vatican.

With it, any attempt of the Albanian intellectuals and religious leaders to dissociate from Greek church culture was oppressed mainly by Turks who honoured the agreement until the end - go figure that someone would have survived the islamisation if Turks pursued that policy for 5 centuries.

Albanian Orthodox Church was recognised Autocephalous only in late 20s of XX cent. The first schools in Albanian were allowed by Turks only in the end of XIX century...

On other hand there was the great pressure from the Slavs for assimilation.

Islam was a perfect shelter for the protection of the national identity- where mostly endangered.

As a matter a fact the number of Muslim Albanians is much higher on east and north- lands bordering with Slavs. As soon as you move a bit deep into the Albanian lands the number of Christians grows exponentially.

The only thing is that fortunately or unfortunately we didn’t had inquisition- otherwise Albanians would not have been the “only” one to whom the descends would be questioned Spanish and Latin link would have been “lost” too ;))

And to conclude, every muslim Albanian needs to scratch a bit into his family past and will find his Christian roots.

My family name is Christian but I am in name from muslim family. My mom is muslim too but she is coming form Marku family (or Morke in dialect). In the villages where my grand fathers are coming there are names like: the church’s hill, or the valley of pigs and still all members of the village are namely muslim.
No one can build on the Church’s hill as it is considered sacred- and this is the only reason that is giving some hope for scientific explorations there. No archaeological investigations have ever been done to find out the basements of those churches. I am talking in the lands in ex Yugo- political reasons behind this blunt no-interest of the Gov??? Maybe...

Yes I know it’s funny- I laugh too ;)) but this is how it is- for us Nation was in first place.

I brought here my personal story only as illustration- I am know that there are plenty of them...

P.S. Clive: you are just one of many that was ignoring the land that was walking on

I had the pleasure of working for 2 years in Kosovo. I travelled to quite a few places. I saw nothing of what could even be described as Kosovo or Albanian cultural monuments. What I did see was beautiful Orthodox buildings. Then on 17th march 2004 I saw beautiful Orthodox buildings in flames and artefacts stolen. I saw no Muslim monuments destroyed or burnt. In truth I saw nothing either in the manners or habits of Albanians that I recognised as cultured nor indeed any monuments. Unless you count the monstrosities in Serbista (pardon my poor spelling) erected as a monument to Adem Yashari . I deeply regret the UK Government is wasting my Tax £s on such a project.

Director Vera did not mention that the database she has is old Yugo database wich she can show to Serb people as up to date.And don't be surprised to learn that most Orthodox churches are build on top of old Bizantine churches foundations,plus old text books suggest Albanians where Christians when the Serbs still lived in the Russian steppes.Merry Christmas and a peaceful New Year.

it seems perfectly obvious to me that both serbs and albanians have their own myths about their heritage. "kosovo is serbia" remains unintelligible to me and so does the relevance of ancient illyrians. serbian medieval kingdom has nothing to do with the modern serbian state and ancient illyrians have nothing to do with modern albanians. and i thought that the phrase "living in the past" was about the 1990's.

I would like to add, as for albanian orthodox heritage, its location is in southern Albania. Orthodox heritage in Kosovo is wiht no doubt Serbian heritage.

Allbanians are not descendants of Illyrians. They are Ilirian decsendanst as much as today FYR Macedonians are descendants of Alexander the Great.

Albanian habitat is in the Caucasus in the region between today Azerbaijan and Russian state of Dagestan.

"Albanian habitat is in the Caucasus in the region between today Azerbaijan and Russian state of Dagestan.
(Goran, 24 December 2008 03:22)"

Highduke?

Mike I don't know about the job Anastasios is doing when it comes to religion. I can tell you that he's been close to removal a couple of times. He's been mixing religion with politics as late as 2 years ago. (There was this incident were with his blessing the graves of children were dug and their bones were claimed to be of Greek soldiers. Medical analysis showed they were kids. The church wouldn't allow the police to retrieve the bones an re-bury them for almost a month). This is not the kind of thing that a man of God should be involved in.

Ben,

I did indeed ask that question to my Greek friends when I was living in Thessaloniki. The attempt to portray one's contemprary society as a direct link to something ancient is certainly not particular to Albanians (Greeks, Romanians - the whole Dacian thing - and Italians). The Greek case lies between two extremes: on one end is the whole "we're the direct descendents of the Ancient Hellenes" argument. On the other the Fallmerayer Thesis: "Greeks today are nothing more than Hellenized Slavs and Armenians".

Most Greeks completely dismiss the latter, but at the same time, I find it hard pressed for anybody - Greeks, Italians, Albanians, Romanians, etc - to say that there is an unbroken line between some civilization way back in the mists of time and today. The idea that Albanians are majority Muslim (even if in name only) already questions a direct Illyrian link.

You're right on Malcolm's book though: he tries to dispel myths on both sides - both Serb and Albanian. I'm not saying the link is completely false and bogus, but that the link is one of many cultural links that make people who they are today. I mean, just look at the variety of food and drink shared between Serbs, Albanians, Greeks, Turks, and Bulgarians. Enough evidence points to shared histories and experiences. It's only when elites try to appropriate and sanitize history for their own ends (and every culture has done this) that conflict over who was where and who owns what spills into bloodshed.

Dim Tuc,

Sorry, don't read every single post...guess I'm ignorant. I only respond to pathetic, vile and overtly biased comments coming from people that are bent on perverting the truth.

Johnny and Ben,

Both good points raised. I didn't mean to imply that Albanian = Muslim, and I've always thought that religion does not play as big a divide within Albanian society as in others. So apologies if I seemed to conclude that Islam is a major defining factor - hence my "(even if in name)"

And yes of course, if Albanians today are from mixed stock, the same applies to all others in the Balkans, hence the ridiculousness of one side trying to claim a piece of land over others.

And interestingly enough, the head of the Orthodox Church of Albania, Archbishop Anastassios, is a Greek. And from what I've heard, he's doing a marvelous job reconstructing the Orthodox Church in Albania. He's also an acclaimed academic too.

"The entire history on Kosova is exclusively from Serbian histographic sources.

As you all know Kosova has always been mainly Albanian"

Ok, lets even agree on both of this statements though some could argue over them. This still does not cover the fact the the most important Serbian monument, built by Serbian rulers exist on the territory of another country. Ok, lets even agree on the fact that those monuments are not Serbian but Bizantyne :) I am going that far now just to say something else ... and it is that Kosovo in general has a problem of not possesing Kosovian national image, it just does not exist, it is not in any way different from Albanian national image and identity. Maybe the only difference could be that Kosovians define themselves more in opposite to Serbs, the way Serbs in Middle Ages defines themselves in opposite to the Turks. All in all, what is happening is logical, a nation is in serious need for national culture ... Books need to be written for kids at school, people need to believe in something which is not only the state but bigger, more important. Serbs as well as many others, did it beg. 19 century and based it on Kosovo myth. But this myth and these churches are not enough for the building of national identity of 2 nations, especially when Kosovo people already have a strong and proud national model, that of what they truly are, Albanians ... if they want to be Kosovars they need to hurry up and write those history books, and fast ... :) I hope I made my point in a friendly way and I made it clear. I am just trying to be objective here ...