“Belgrade negotiating NIS sale only”

Mark my words if the gas pipeline is not made part of the contract and the Russians pull out of that deal following their feasibility report all parties that created / helped to pass the NIS sale will suffer at the next elections, as will Serbian faith in Russian promises.

Its clear that if the pipeline will be built in any case, that it should be part of the NIS contract.

When it comes to business I have no faith in anything until its written down in a contract on paper. And the Serbian government has no right to gamble like that with our most profitable public company either.

Some may be interested to hear that Nikolic stated that SNS would support the government for the time being if G17 were to leave the government.

bganon,
I thought I had thoroughly made my case but you drag me back in. I believe it was you who conceded, not me, that it is Serbia who is trying to change the original contract, not the Russians. It was Serbia, Dinkic in particular, who is trying to cancel this deal and ruin a relationship with our best friend and ally. I am glad that you are also conceding that G17 may be in the lap of some western company that wants to buy NIS for themselves - thanks for that. I think there is no doubt that they are.
Talk to me in two years, when after the feasibility study is done the Russians start building a 400 km pipeline through Serbia, which will be fantastic for the Serbian economy. This will be great for Serbia, great for Russia, but the EU and the US will not be happy. The EU will have to then take Serbia more seriously since a large chunk of their energy supply will traverse through Serbia, and Russia will be that much stronger since they will be supplying yet more gas to Europe than they already are. The Americans will be unhappy because the EU will be even more reliant on Russia for energy supplies, instead of the middle east which the US controls. This is a geopolitical chess match between the big players, and Dinkic, Ceda Jovanovic, many yellows, are working against Serbia. The people will not be fooled.
When Kostunica signed this deal, all this was taken into consideration. What you fail to understand is that Russia WANTS to help Serbia, we are their number one ally in the middle of Europe, and this pipeline will be built, you shall see.
Cheers!!

like Mr.Bganon said once Serbia's family silver will be sold to the Russians for some peanuts...all the other things are in complete fog...Good shot for the Kremlin...

ZK thats the first time I've heard anybody connect the Fiat deal with NIS.

Do you have any source for that at all? I have not heard the Russians (Gasprom or Russian ministers) mention it, but I might have missed something.

As far as the export of Fiat cars to the Russian market it concerned, do we know how many cars were envisaged. for export to that market? I thought that most of production from Kragujevac would be sold in the local market and surrounding countries. In that regard I just found references from Fiat management that about 95% of production is intended for European markets.

As far as the duty free deal is concerned I'm certain that if the Russians did not intend for minority Serbian companies to be excluded they would have stipulated it in the agreement. You might want to remember that Zastava is still 33% owned by Serbia. In the end free trade is just that. Surely they did not think that Serbia would be under sanctions forever more and would never have any foreign companies buying up Serbian ones??? Also the Russia / Serbia free trade agreement has still not been ratified by the Russian parliament, even though the Serbian parliament did so many years ago. Additionally under the terms of the original agreement cars are not on the list of items that can be exported tax free. The fact is that some Serbian companies are afraid that if they attempt to use the agreement Russian customs would hold up their goods on the border. Also you might want to bare in mind that if and when Serbia decides to join the WTO both Russia and the WTO may object to the free trade agreement.

But I do agree with you that this government is in a bit of a mess. And I will be true to my word in criticising this government when it is warranted (rather than calling for it to be unseated before it even begun its work!).

Hmm, let me see. This so-called government with its little election trick where an EU company (Fiat) can now build cars in Serbia and export them to Russia duty free looks like it has backfired.

I'm sure Russia intended to help Serbia out with this exemption but not the EU. So when this government used that benefit for election purposes to help themselves and their friends in the EU, I'm sure the Russians weren't that impressed. So what can they do now?

Well, what do you think? Sell us NIS cheaply and we'll allow the EU to export cars through Serbia. This government is in a bit of a mess I think. Lose the Fiat deal or NIS? Hmmm, hard choice!

Princip 'oh dear this deal getting you a bit up tight - and no sight of Kostunica to blame only Tadic and Dacic! '

Wrong, I presume you are not developing amnesia, it was Kostunica's aides that worded the agreement in the first place. That is a matter of official record and put us in this weak negotiating position in the first place.
It is thus Kostunica's primary responsibility. Thats a given, but I'm reasonable, the finger at the moment is firmly pointed at the current government. They are running the country at the moment and the buck stops with them.

And of course I'm uptight. Aren't you uptight when somebody is trying to sell your posessions for less than half their value? Silly question, obviously you don't think the livelihoods of thousands of Serbians are worth bothering about? The sale of NIS is certainly not a joke, its a deadly serious issue.

Here we go with the vague references to 'energy' again. We had Dragan harping on about this topic before he conceeded that he supported letting off the Russians without signing a pipeline deal, so his point about energy is moot. If the Russians won't build a pipeline, then energy security will not be secured.
Rather NIS / Beopetrol monopoly position
will be secured to the detriment of Serbians. Rather Serbian distrust of Russian promises will be secured.

Would you consider just for one second that those who are questioning the terms of the current deal with the Russians are not against a deal per sae, rather they are looking for a better deal with the Russians?

Of course I'm not saying that G17 are not in the lap of some European competitor company that would like to purchase NIS at a tender, they might well be. But there are thousands of people out there who have some knowledge of economy who are concerned about the terms of this deal.

But stuff all of those political parties. The primary interest is that of Serbian citizens. If the interest of Serbian citizens in the current deal is not being served, as I contend, then it is you who are not working in Serbia's best interest, and not those who question the current deal. I'd like to say that you might change your mind with more information.

Bganon,

how poor your memory and research skills are - Dinkic is the one who connected car exports (Fiat) and Russia trade together and thus equally one needs to be aware that Gazprom is a very very important state company with a great deal of trade sway;

"Dinkić said German Volkswagen is planning to build a car factory in Serbia in order to export cars to Russia if the duties on cars imported from Serbia.

"Dinkić decided to suggest the Russians to lift the duties on Russian cars exported to Serbia and Serbian cars exported to Russia."
http://www.seebiz.eu/en/corporate/industry/dinkic-negotiates-with-iveco-and-volkswagen,24774.html
SEEbiz.eu 10th Sept 2008

- Bganon, how do you think Dinkic has faired in his interpersonal and negotiation skills with the Russians and the now faltering Fiat deal??

No doubt Dinkic obtained lots of firm guarantees from Fiat - one can only guess ?

Bganon,

"Mark my words if"

if,if,if,if,if......

oh dear this deal getting you a bit up tight - and no sight of Kostunica to blame only Tadic and Dacic!

Energy security for any nation IS a political and clear state objective - I would have thought Bganon you would have been aware of this?

Serbia takes a leaf out of the western model and sells its national asset in this case to a russian company - could it be the fact Gazprom is a "state" company which is performing well thay irks you so?

Look on the bright side at least Serbia will not have to pay the immense indirect costs if they had sold to a US or UK firm - you know those costs of ensuring energy security by sending troops over the line to their cartain deaths be it in Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere else that US imperialists want to secure its energy supply! Or the indirect cost of bypassing corruption laws in your own country to allow deals for dogy back payment through defense companies as in the UK http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/11/bae.armstrade

Sure Serbia has a long way to go to clean up its act but maybe they just need to learn how to obfuscate like the UK?

However, this deal seems like its going through irrespective and I for one suggest those who obstruct Serbia's energy security are not working in Serbia's interest!

bganon, check B92 news on the 5th of Dec and it does mentioned Russia will ban cars made in Kragujevac if the gas deal falls through. It is linked as far as I'm concerned.

Personally I would prefer the sale of NIS, pipeline and gas storage facility all tied into one package but will the Russians allow us to eat our cake and have it too?

Lets see what negotiations bring.

'I believe it was you who conceded, not me, that it is Serbia who is trying to change the original contract, not the Russians.'

Dragan there is nothing to concede, its a matter of fact. But just because somebody has agreed that your collectively owned house that you live in should be sold for much less than its market price, does not mean you have to support it. Besides the Russians themselves are trying to get out of the part of the contract that stipulates that they invest EUR 500 mln, saying that this should be a loan attributed to NIS. That was not part of the original deal. If the Russians alter the deal, so can Serbia. I truly don't understand why you are not arguing for a better deal for Serbia.

And there is no concession that political parties work in the interest of foreign / domestic companies. I am certain that just as G17 are potentially in the lap of a European company, say MOL, that DSS were potentially in the lap of Gasprom. The ridiculous thing is to believe that only one or two political parties are capable of this. They are ALL capable of it, that is simply the way politics work. As I understand it you are the one who seems to think that DSS and Gasprom / Russia are alturistic entities, wanting to unselfishly help Serbia, rather than wanting to help themselves. If Russia / Gasprom was alturistic it would collapse, as any country / company would.

Russia does not want to HELP Serbia, Russia wants to help itself. Likewise Serbia does not want to help russia, it wants to help itself. This is simply the way international relations works, its nothing personal. The fact that you might personally feel an emotional bond with Russia has nothing to do with business.

But to end on an agreeable note I hope you are right on the pipeline, but I do not believe in business decisions based on pure faith. Many a bankrupt businessman has believed in empty promises.

Get it down on paper on a contract, then I will believe it.

Pyrros let us wait and see what is written on these deals. For example If we are talking about a CONTRACT for NIS and a MEMORANDUM for the pipeline, it changes nothing. Or if there is a contract with South Stream and it stipulates in the small print 'on condition of passing the feasibility test' - again, its worthless.

ZK I'm delighted you agree with me that it should all be in one package, or even separate contracts signed at the same time.
But it would be nice if you would speak up a bit on this topic, as I'm sure you know anybody contradicting the official line of the major parties can be accused of all sorts from one or two self declared patriots for wanting a better deal for Serbia.

But ok, perhaps we can't get that deal, but if we negotiate effectively we can get better than we have now. And at the moment we are being ripped off.

Thanks for the link, I see the connection, although I think it was Dinkic mainly trying to angle for a better deal.

Princip I couldn't care less whether Gasprom are the most or least important company in the world. Are we supposed to say that because the US is one of the richest and most important countries in the world that we are supposed to recognise Kosovo? Thats not a good argument at all.

Like I said Princip if the export to Russia accounts for less than 5% of Zastava production, frankly its not a vital Serbian interest if the Russians decide not to allow export of Fiat / Zastava vehicles into Russia.

If the deal with Fiat is faltering, its not to do with export fees on a small number of cars onto the Russian market, its to do with the world financial crisis. How you can mix these two completely different issues is your own affair.

Pyross I can see where this kind of debate is going but I don't think its the place for philosphical questions.

The alliance you mentioned were based upon some mutual interest(s) involving some strange bedfellows. No great surprise.

Nothing unusual or irrational about say the Russian and German alliance towards the beginning of WW2. At the time people might have thought it an irrational move, but both sides had their reasons.

I don't see what is aristocratic about assuming that people / governments / business persue their own interests. Just because we can't see the immediate interest does not make their activity irrational.

You may prefer to believe that there are things we can (and should?) not know. That is your opinion, my opinion is that Serbia must persue its self interest, within reason of course. I also think that we should always look with eyes open. I appreciate that there are those who prefer the safety of tunnel view.

Anyway I've hogged this discussion long enough, its time for others to have their say on this deal.

Guys relax, take a look at this article:
"Serbia to sign 3 energy deals during president's visit to Moscow"
http://en.rian.ru/world/20081211/118797216.html

i guess we, the public will always be outsiders in things in
which we have no real control,
because simply the details will always escape us.

i know im late to the party, but....Princip, Gazprom is way overleveraged and has substantial debt.

Bganon is right. Until everything is signed n paper, why do it?

like my old basketball coach used to say, "nothing personal, just business"

bganon

" Its clear that if the pipeline will be built in any case, that it should be part of the NIS contract."

Well done ! Dear bganon I know at least 3 big reasons of what you say:

1. Gasprom's reputation cost very much and it has always strictly followed all the contracts signed.

2. Putin values his internal rating even higher than the reputation of Gasprom.

3. Russian people will not let Gasprom to cheat Serbia even headed with OTPOR government.

Baja

Don't waste you time ! Take it as easy as you can coz you can do nothing about it. We love each other whatever you say while you has not a single friendly nation. Make friends with the Serbs and you will obtain friends worldwide.

ZK

This bargaining does not look well for such close nations as we definitely are ! I believe that both sides made things I would like to escape . Like many other Russians I was surprised with Gasproms tough stance in the negotiations as if was not Serbia but Romania , Poland , Bulgaria ect.

So please do not associate totally Gasprom and Russia. It's just a big business shark and nothing else. You will be surprised to know that in two weeks Gasprom is going to increase the internal gas prices for another 25%... At the same time prices for EU are reduced by 30% ...

.

BGanon, we (serbs and pro-serbs) simply cannot have the style of the aristocrat and employ explicit cold logic,
and behave like everybody acts on his own interests (Serbs for Serbia, Russians for Russia, etc...) when we simply will see USA-Holland-UK-Turkey-Belgium-Germany-Danmark(the country of our Andersen here)-Sweden-NORWAY and even S.Korea ALL IN ONE
attacking Serbia again.

Lets stop kidding, all those guys seemed very coordinated back then, if everybody minded their own interests like you are advocating Yugoslavia wouldn't even fall apart for the obvious reasons.

So in an irrational world we cannot simply be partially rational in a limited scope.

Was to done to your country since the 90s was far from ....the laws of the free market.

Should Serbian Gvernment trust Russians? do Rassins trust Russisans? Would any one trust Serbian Government if they trust Russians and sell whatever left for the price of snow of winter?..Hopala. Do these politicians follow the nature of Govt. of Russia in general - history of oil legents from Russia?..In short how can Serbs turst this kind of Government?? explain to me please.

Hmm, let me see. This so-called government with its little election trick where an EU company (Fiat) can now build cars in Serbia and export them to Russia duty free looks like it has backfired.

I'm sure Russia intended to help Serbia out with this exemption but not the EU. So when this government used that benefit for election purposes to help themselves and their friends in the EU, I'm sure the Russians weren't that impressed. So what can they do now?

Well, what do you think? Sell us NIS cheaply and we'll allow the EU to export cars through Serbia. This government is in a bit of a mess I think. Lose the Fiat deal or NIS? Hmmm, hard choice!

Bganon,

"Mark my words if"

if,if,if,if,if......

oh dear this deal getting you a bit up tight - and no sight of Kostunica to blame only Tadic and Dacic!

Energy security for any nation IS a political and clear state objective - I would have thought Bganon you would have been aware of this?

Serbia takes a leaf out of the western model and sells its national asset in this case to a russian company - could it be the fact Gazprom is a "state" company which is performing well thay irks you so?

Look on the bright side at least Serbia will not have to pay the immense indirect costs if they had sold to a US or UK firm - you know those costs of ensuring energy security by sending troops over the line to their cartain deaths be it in Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere else that US imperialists want to secure its energy supply! Or the indirect cost of bypassing corruption laws in your own country to allow deals for dogy back payment through defense companies as in the UK http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/11/bae.armstrade

Sure Serbia has a long way to go to clean up its act but maybe they just need to learn how to obfuscate like the UK?

However, this deal seems like its going through irrespective and I for one suggest those who obstruct Serbia's energy security are not working in Serbia's interest!

Mark my words if the gas pipeline is not made part of the contract and the Russians pull out of that deal following their feasibility report all parties that created / helped to pass the NIS sale will suffer at the next elections, as will Serbian faith in Russian promises.

Its clear that if the pipeline will be built in any case, that it should be part of the NIS contract.

When it comes to business I have no faith in anything until its written down in a contract on paper. And the Serbian government has no right to gamble like that with our most profitable public company either.

Some may be interested to hear that Nikolic stated that SNS would support the government for the time being if G17 were to leave the government.

like Mr.Bganon said once Serbia's family silver will be sold to the Russians for some peanuts...all the other things are in complete fog...Good shot for the Kremlin...

Bganon,

how poor your memory and research skills are - Dinkic is the one who connected car exports (Fiat) and Russia trade together and thus equally one needs to be aware that Gazprom is a very very important state company with a great deal of trade sway;

"Dinkić said German Volkswagen is planning to build a car factory in Serbia in order to export cars to Russia if the duties on cars imported from Serbia.

"Dinkić decided to suggest the Russians to lift the duties on Russian cars exported to Serbia and Serbian cars exported to Russia."
http://www.seebiz.eu/en/corporate/industry/dinkic-negotiates-with-iveco-and-volkswagen,24774.html
SEEbiz.eu 10th Sept 2008

- Bganon, how do you think Dinkic has faired in his interpersonal and negotiation skills with the Russians and the now faltering Fiat deal??

No doubt Dinkic obtained lots of firm guarantees from Fiat - one can only guess ?

Should Serbian Gvernment trust Russians? do Rassins trust Russisans? Would any one trust Serbian Government if they trust Russians and sell whatever left for the price of snow of winter?..Hopala. Do these politicians follow the nature of Govt. of Russia in general - history of oil legents from Russia?..In short how can Serbs turst this kind of Government?? explain to me please.

ZK thats the first time I've heard anybody connect the Fiat deal with NIS.

Do you have any source for that at all? I have not heard the Russians (Gasprom or Russian ministers) mention it, but I might have missed something.

As far as the export of Fiat cars to the Russian market it concerned, do we know how many cars were envisaged. for export to that market? I thought that most of production from Kragujevac would be sold in the local market and surrounding countries. In that regard I just found references from Fiat management that about 95% of production is intended for European markets.

As far as the duty free deal is concerned I'm certain that if the Russians did not intend for minority Serbian companies to be excluded they would have stipulated it in the agreement. You might want to remember that Zastava is still 33% owned by Serbia. In the end free trade is just that. Surely they did not think that Serbia would be under sanctions forever more and would never have any foreign companies buying up Serbian ones??? Also the Russia / Serbia free trade agreement has still not been ratified by the Russian parliament, even though the Serbian parliament did so many years ago. Additionally under the terms of the original agreement cars are not on the list of items that can be exported tax free. The fact is that some Serbian companies are afraid that if they attempt to use the agreement Russian customs would hold up their goods on the border. Also you might want to bare in mind that if and when Serbia decides to join the WTO both Russia and the WTO may object to the free trade agreement.

But I do agree with you that this government is in a bit of a mess. And I will be true to my word in criticising this government when it is warranted (rather than calling for it to be unseated before it even begun its work!).

bganon,
I thought I had thoroughly made my case but you drag me back in. I believe it was you who conceded, not me, that it is Serbia who is trying to change the original contract, not the Russians. It was Serbia, Dinkic in particular, who is trying to cancel this deal and ruin a relationship with our best friend and ally. I am glad that you are also conceding that G17 may be in the lap of some western company that wants to buy NIS for themselves - thanks for that. I think there is no doubt that they are.
Talk to me in two years, when after the feasibility study is done the Russians start building a 400 km pipeline through Serbia, which will be fantastic for the Serbian economy. This will be great for Serbia, great for Russia, but the EU and the US will not be happy. The EU will have to then take Serbia more seriously since a large chunk of their energy supply will traverse through Serbia, and Russia will be that much stronger since they will be supplying yet more gas to Europe than they already are. The Americans will be unhappy because the EU will be even more reliant on Russia for energy supplies, instead of the middle east which the US controls. This is a geopolitical chess match between the big players, and Dinkic, Ceda Jovanovic, many yellows, are working against Serbia. The people will not be fooled.
When Kostunica signed this deal, all this was taken into consideration. What you fail to understand is that Russia WANTS to help Serbia, we are their number one ally in the middle of Europe, and this pipeline will be built, you shall see.
Cheers!!

'I believe it was you who conceded, not me, that it is Serbia who is trying to change the original contract, not the Russians.'

Dragan there is nothing to concede, its a matter of fact. But just because somebody has agreed that your collectively owned house that you live in should be sold for much less than its market price, does not mean you have to support it. Besides the Russians themselves are trying to get out of the part of the contract that stipulates that they invest EUR 500 mln, saying that this should be a loan attributed to NIS. That was not part of the original deal. If the Russians alter the deal, so can Serbia. I truly don't understand why you are not arguing for a better deal for Serbia.

And there is no concession that political parties work in the interest of foreign / domestic companies. I am certain that just as G17 are potentially in the lap of a European company, say MOL, that DSS were potentially in the lap of Gasprom. The ridiculous thing is to believe that only one or two political parties are capable of this. They are ALL capable of it, that is simply the way politics work. As I understand it you are the one who seems to think that DSS and Gasprom / Russia are alturistic entities, wanting to unselfishly help Serbia, rather than wanting to help themselves. If Russia / Gasprom was alturistic it would collapse, as any country / company would.

Russia does not want to HELP Serbia, Russia wants to help itself. Likewise Serbia does not want to help russia, it wants to help itself. This is simply the way international relations works, its nothing personal. The fact that you might personally feel an emotional bond with Russia has nothing to do with business.

But to end on an agreeable note I hope you are right on the pipeline, but I do not believe in business decisions based on pure faith. Many a bankrupt businessman has believed in empty promises.

Get it down on paper on a contract, then I will believe it.

Pyrros let us wait and see what is written on these deals. For example If we are talking about a CONTRACT for NIS and a MEMORANDUM for the pipeline, it changes nothing. Or if there is a contract with South Stream and it stipulates in the small print 'on condition of passing the feasibility test' - again, its worthless.

Princip 'oh dear this deal getting you a bit up tight - and no sight of Kostunica to blame only Tadic and Dacic! '

Wrong, I presume you are not developing amnesia, it was Kostunica's aides that worded the agreement in the first place. That is a matter of official record and put us in this weak negotiating position in the first place.
It is thus Kostunica's primary responsibility. Thats a given, but I'm reasonable, the finger at the moment is firmly pointed at the current government. They are running the country at the moment and the buck stops with them.

And of course I'm uptight. Aren't you uptight when somebody is trying to sell your posessions for less than half their value? Silly question, obviously you don't think the livelihoods of thousands of Serbians are worth bothering about? The sale of NIS is certainly not a joke, its a deadly serious issue.

Here we go with the vague references to 'energy' again. We had Dragan harping on about this topic before he conceeded that he supported letting off the Russians without signing a pipeline deal, so his point about energy is moot. If the Russians won't build a pipeline, then energy security will not be secured.
Rather NIS / Beopetrol monopoly position
will be secured to the detriment of Serbians. Rather Serbian distrust of Russian promises will be secured.

Would you consider just for one second that those who are questioning the terms of the current deal with the Russians are not against a deal per sae, rather they are looking for a better deal with the Russians?

Of course I'm not saying that G17 are not in the lap of some European competitor company that would like to purchase NIS at a tender, they might well be. But there are thousands of people out there who have some knowledge of economy who are concerned about the terms of this deal.

But stuff all of those political parties. The primary interest is that of Serbian citizens. If the interest of Serbian citizens in the current deal is not being served, as I contend, then it is you who are not working in Serbia's best interest, and not those who question the current deal. I'd like to say that you might change your mind with more information.

ZK I'm delighted you agree with me that it should all be in one package, or even separate contracts signed at the same time.
But it would be nice if you would speak up a bit on this topic, as I'm sure you know anybody contradicting the official line of the major parties can be accused of all sorts from one or two self declared patriots for wanting a better deal for Serbia.

But ok, perhaps we can't get that deal, but if we negotiate effectively we can get better than we have now. And at the moment we are being ripped off.

Thanks for the link, I see the connection, although I think it was Dinkic mainly trying to angle for a better deal.

Princip I couldn't care less whether Gasprom are the most or least important company in the world. Are we supposed to say that because the US is one of the richest and most important countries in the world that we are supposed to recognise Kosovo? Thats not a good argument at all.

Like I said Princip if the export to Russia accounts for less than 5% of Zastava production, frankly its not a vital Serbian interest if the Russians decide not to allow export of Fiat / Zastava vehicles into Russia.

If the deal with Fiat is faltering, its not to do with export fees on a small number of cars onto the Russian market, its to do with the world financial crisis. How you can mix these two completely different issues is your own affair.

Pyross I can see where this kind of debate is going but I don't think its the place for philosphical questions.

The alliance you mentioned were based upon some mutual interest(s) involving some strange bedfellows. No great surprise.

Nothing unusual or irrational about say the Russian and German alliance towards the beginning of WW2. At the time people might have thought it an irrational move, but both sides had their reasons.

I don't see what is aristocratic about assuming that people / governments / business persue their own interests. Just because we can't see the immediate interest does not make their activity irrational.

You may prefer to believe that there are things we can (and should?) not know. That is your opinion, my opinion is that Serbia must persue its self interest, within reason of course. I also think that we should always look with eyes open. I appreciate that there are those who prefer the safety of tunnel view.

Anyway I've hogged this discussion long enough, its time for others to have their say on this deal.

bganon

" Its clear that if the pipeline will be built in any case, that it should be part of the NIS contract."

Well done ! Dear bganon I know at least 3 big reasons of what you say:

1. Gasprom's reputation cost very much and it has always strictly followed all the contracts signed.

2. Putin values his internal rating even higher than the reputation of Gasprom.

3. Russian people will not let Gasprom to cheat Serbia even headed with OTPOR government.

Baja

Don't waste you time ! Take it as easy as you can coz you can do nothing about it. We love each other whatever you say while you has not a single friendly nation. Make friends with the Serbs and you will obtain friends worldwide.

ZK

This bargaining does not look well for such close nations as we definitely are ! I believe that both sides made things I would like to escape . Like many other Russians I was surprised with Gasproms tough stance in the negotiations as if was not Serbia but Romania , Poland , Bulgaria ect.

So please do not associate totally Gasprom and Russia. It's just a big business shark and nothing else. You will be surprised to know that in two weeks Gasprom is going to increase the internal gas prices for another 25%... At the same time prices for EU are reduced by 30% ...

.

BGanon, we (serbs and pro-serbs) simply cannot have the style of the aristocrat and employ explicit cold logic,
and behave like everybody acts on his own interests (Serbs for Serbia, Russians for Russia, etc...) when we simply will see USA-Holland-UK-Turkey-Belgium-Germany-Danmark(the country of our Andersen here)-Sweden-NORWAY and even S.Korea ALL IN ONE
attacking Serbia again.

Lets stop kidding, all those guys seemed very coordinated back then, if everybody minded their own interests like you are advocating Yugoslavia wouldn't even fall apart for the obvious reasons.

So in an irrational world we cannot simply be partially rational in a limited scope.

Was to done to your country since the 90s was far from ....the laws of the free market.

bganon, check B92 news on the 5th of Dec and it does mentioned Russia will ban cars made in Kragujevac if the gas deal falls through. It is linked as far as I'm concerned.

Personally I would prefer the sale of NIS, pipeline and gas storage facility all tied into one package but will the Russians allow us to eat our cake and have it too?

Lets see what negotiations bring.

Guys relax, take a look at this article:
"Serbia to sign 3 energy deals during president's visit to Moscow"
http://en.rian.ru/world/20081211/118797216.html

i guess we, the public will always be outsiders in things in
which we have no real control,
because simply the details will always escape us.

i know im late to the party, but....Princip, Gazprom is way overleveraged and has substantial debt.

Bganon is right. Until everything is signed n paper, why do it?

like my old basketball coach used to say, "nothing personal, just business"