"Now that Serbia has demonstrated that it is a stability factor in the region, there is no reason not to change the accord, which still includes a no-fly zone, Tadić was quoted as saying."
Really, are you willing to bet 12,000 human lives on it Mr. Tadic?
We have car manufacturers(Zastava-Fiat,Ikarbus,FaP),steel industries (Sartid,Livnica Kikinda),electronics producers (EI Nis,TVs,wash machines,refrigators,medicineequipments),Chemicals (Zupa),pharma industries (Hemofarm,Galenika),mining RTB Bor(largest cooper reserves in Europe),machine industries (MIN Nis),a major oil company with extensive oil fields in Angola (NIS),aviation industries (UTVA Pancevo),weapons manufacturers (Zastava Oruzje),auto parts industry,agroindustries and several others
(CG, 30 November 2008 01:50)
Why these foreign investments that Tito was bringing in Yugo and financed by the evil US where not directed in part in Kosova- the “Serbian holy land”????????
Because sending in Kosva FDIs meant giving jobs to Albanians not to Serbs???
Maybe because Kosova was always overwhelming majority Albanian even in the 50s when these FDIs where coming in Yugo????
Decades of discrimination in every segment of the life we have seen from Yugo/Serbia
Spare us your lectures about the pervertism of humanity in former Eastern European states.
But I have to agree with you on one point,at least we were not so "humane" to kill 3 million Vietnamese in a total senseless war and to be proud of it like many "humane" Westerners are.
It is an uncomparable sin to do bad things and to portrait themselves as the "beacon of the free world".
It`s called cynicism .
One of the strength of Kádár was that he tried to awoid "high minded drawl". The slow "innocent small step-by-innocent small step" tactics worked extremely well and he enjoyed huge popularity among the... simpler people.
Sorry for salami-joke but that really worked and I really have a "deja vue" now. If it works out as I suspect, all my compliments to BT & VJ.
Ataman -- re the Salami story: the only salami i've ever really known is the one from the kosher deli, but i had to give it up for lent :) well, actually because it isn't so very healthy, i am mostly vegetarian (oh, what a surprise!) and it is fattening; i'm determined not to get fat like so many of my male, mid-aged peers.
but i was reading a bit about your? Janos kadar, and his many complex and contradictory escapades. what i think about it, despite my belief in the basic commonality of the human condition, is how different it must have been to grow up in occupied eastern europe, while i was growing up here. of course we had so many challenges, internal and external, but it was absolutely nothing compared to the way it must have been in, say, hungary or E germany. or soviet union, or 100 other places. i mean if you managed to survive it with some of your dignity intact, then perhaps it gave you such a tougher moral fiber... sometimes, in an odd way, i feel a stronger connection to (former) e euro dissidents than to political types from the states or W europe.
on the other hand, i think that some folks who grew up in some of these more repressive regimes had a part of their humanity forever removed, perverted.
i do believe that east can meet west, more than in a superficial "capitalist" way -- but it isn't always so ez to traverse the languages...
We have car manufacturers(Zastava-Fiat,Ikarbus,FaP),steel industries (Sartid,Livnica Kikinda),electronics producers (EI Nis,TVs,wash machines,refrigators,medicineequipments),Chemicals (Zupa),pharma industries (Hemofarm,Galenika),mining RTB Bor(largest cooper reserves in Europe),machine industries (MIN Nis),a major oil company with extensive oil fields in Angola (NIS),aviation industries (UTVA Pancevo),weapons manufacturers (Zastava Oruzje),auto parts industry,agroindustries and several others
compared to Kosovo ???Maybe exlusive white pouder ???
It doesn`t take an Einstein to figure out who is a third world society!
As for Vojvodina,sorry about your fantasies but it is inhabited 80 % by Serbs and is Serbian .
Your aggressive nationalist statements only show what a threat to security and prosperity extremist Albanians pose to the Balkans.
Don't you guys see the reallity that Kosovo is independent country/
(sel, 29 November 2008 23:28)
Deja Vue. One thin slice of Hungarian salami after an other + 30 years of salami slicing = Soviet Union had to see the change of the "reality on the ground" and the entire salami was eaten.
This is called "Salami Tactics" of late János Kádár.
Works excellently. All you need is Salami from Szeged (or Zlatibor), a hungry Soviet (or American) and somebody with the name like "János" (or Boris) ;)
No. Started 4 wars, greatest crimes since WWII. War criminals still free. NATO makes you a 'factor of stability' because you are cornered.
>>>>> flourishing economy
NO. Serbia just got an IMF loan and your currency is losing value. Croatia is 2X richer, Slovenia 3X.
>>>>>stable democracy and good prospects of EU membership.
Stable? Just 5 months ago you burned down Western embassies and the west had to convince Slobodan Milosevic's party to join the pro-Western coalition. Milosevic's people!!! If you ever join EU is because of bribes and hoping to get even more from EU. You are peaceful now because you can't do anything.
What you said about Albanians: who cares. Albania is doing much better and Albania doesn't have a Vojvodina (Hungarian land) to leech of. Kosova has been run a a colony by Serbs, but that has changed now and new roads are being built weekly. One step at a time, Serbia has had independence sin 1800's and is broke, a third world country with $30 billion in debt.
I don't understand what Tadic is asking for, they think that they won ICJ against Kosovo, also their 6 points were accepted by the UN, and now they want a revision of Kumanova agreement. I think at the end Serbia will be just Belgrade and some surounding areas. Tadic, Jeremic, Bogdanovic etc know that Sebia has signed a capitulation against NATO and there is no chance for any Sebian force or Police to step in to a Kosovo land. Don't you guys see the reallity that Kosovo is independent country/
but tadic claims, believes?? that "serb soldiers have never fired against anyone"?? i would say that this man and his regime are really! scary, frankly delusional, and more to the fact, dangerous.
the current blgd regime is becoming, day by day, increasingly belligerent, bullying, and dangerous. how anyone could paint this as a "stabilizing" force -- it is more than absurd.
(roberto, 29 November 2008 20:17)
Roberto, please prove your point by providing cases of political nature VJ or MUP engaged in fire. I did not hear of any, but if you did, please prove, I am wrong. Trivial cases what VJ, MUP, KP or KFOR would equally consider criminal (= driving away with money after armed bank robbery) should not count, but not sure, even such were in the area lately.
In my opinion, demands to keep the zone and label the Serbian government for a mere wish to change the Kumanovo-agreement as "belligerent, bullying, and dangerous" are very good to alienate most "West-oriented" Belgradians. I am curious, what C.J. will tell you on that.
Where I agree with Roberto: the "Kádárian salami tactics" of current Serbian government is indeed by a magnitude more efficient than few tough words and some intensive Russian/Chinese-flag waiving of naives who never even lived in Russia, save in China. The little, insignificant János Kádár with his famous "salami tactics" from an insignificant Soviet "protectorate" was one of the grave-diggers of the Soviet empire. Salami does work, one thin slice after an other. The thinner the slice, the tastier salami is. But at the end all salami will be eaten and all car license plates in Pristina will begin with "PS" ;)
The contrary is also evident: we can say in Hungarian "vesszen mocskos trianon" as much as we like, but precisely the Hungarian nationalists (horthy) and fascists (arrow-cross) were the ones, who cemented the trianon-treaty. With better politicians back in 1920-s the picture today would be very different. Yugoslavia's tragedy was, that at begin during their "trianon" they had similar politicians like Hungary had: nationalists and fascists. Wish, the current government would be in power in early 1990-s. Than, the picture would be very different.
Apropos, "trianon". One was precisely one to many. When will "West" learn, "trianons", "daytons", "kumanovos" won't solve anything? The role of USA in all these treaties was a shame. Even if there is Woodrow Wilson street in Belgrade and Clinton street in Pristina.
Serbia = factor of stability in Balkans,flourishing economy,stable democracy and good prospects of EU membership.
Albanians= pursue an agressive Greater Albanian nationalism,have ties to Al Qaida (Fort Dix bombing,explosives for London attacks),drug smuggling and prostitution rings,extreme poverty with no perspectives for the young generations.
Considering the political changes in the world, the revision of Kumanovo's agreement is also in NATO's interest, in order to have a liable partner in Serbia as the biggest country in the Balkans.
well, what else is new? "long-forgotten" atrocities, a fraction of which are still making their way through the courts. but tadic claims, believes?? that "serb soldiers have never fired against anyone"?? i would say that this man and his regime are really! scary, frankly delusional, and more to the fact, dangerous.
the current blgd regime is becoming, day by day, increasingly belligerent, bullying, and dangerous. how anyone could paint this as a "stabilizing" force -- it is more than absurd.
i call on the western powers to utterly reject this proposal, which would bring us exactly back to where we were in '99, except that this time serbia is ruled by a true nationalist.
and one more thing -- i call on our frnd Cedi (cedo) to take a principled stance and leave this nationalistic and provocative govt. i have said before that i understand the need to compromise; but enough is enough.
isn't it ironic -- the "radicals" lost, and the "democrats," the real nationalists, won. my frnds in sarajevo were exactly right, all along.
#4 What a load of nonsense. The US cannot have a base wherever it wants. It has to either ask for permission or conquor the country. Secondly there is no truth in the statement "instigating the Republika of Srbska to break away from Bosnia" for the simple reason the RS hasn't attempted to break away.
>>>>>>>but adds that Priština cannot take part in the negotiations, since the document was signed by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and NATO.
Of course not, but USA rules NATO. Serbs want to bring soldiers close so that they can provoke Albanians, old trick. Expect many such requests from Serbs hoping to show Kosova is still theirs and that Serbia still matters. In March Croatia and Albania join NATO so it will be different.
FYI: Serbs can't even fly a kite in their territory within 25 miles of Kosova border, very humiliating, especially after the bombing. Kosova is under NATO protections anyway, 25 miles or 5 it's the same, until Kosova gets it's army and everything is safe, as NATO is not going anywhere. Look at the map: Plenty of NATO members around Serbia and Kosova.
If changes to the Kumanovo Agreement are made, I suspect it will have to be in agreement between Belgrade and EULEX. If they agree, a reconfiguration will take place. If they don't, it doesn't.
I`m sure there will be enough goodwill on both sides (Serbia and NATO)so this agreement can be changed or at leat abolished.
Since the Albanian rebellion in 2001 when they suffered a defeat Serb units were allowed to go in in full capacities.
The only limitations in place are anti aircraft batteries which don`t pose a threat to KFOR.
Anyway, Albanian terrorist supporters will have no veto power on this desition.
As a matter of fact, the US should have a military base in Serbia just like it does in Kosova. Serbia is still actively attempting to destabilize the region as evidenced by it instigating the Republika of Srbska to break away from Bosnia.
The Kumanova agreement set no time limit on how long it would stay in effect. Serbia still has a long way to go before it can be trusted and treat as an equal and only then be a part of the European community.
Lets compare say the attitude of the Serbian government with Serbs in Croatia and that of Kosovo Albanian leadership / Albania with Macedonia. Both advocate taking part in institutions.
Now lets look at Kosovo Albanian attitude towards Presevo and for example all that nonsensical flag waving in Bujanovac and the support Albanian terrorist groups (which have now been disbanded) in Serbia proper that received from Kosovo.
Is that the kind of engagement you were talking about?
And frankly who cares whether Russia is liked by the military organisation NATO? That organisation is not even staffed by civilians or elected, so who cares what they think? If you want to make a point about Russia and say its foreign policy, then at least make a good one.
I think that you have made precisely the argument that Serbia is making - albeit with your own contradictory conclusion.
Different realities exist today therefore Kumanovo may also be altered if parties wish it.
Liburni,
---Serbia has carried out such destruction throughout the former Yugoslavia---
Your statement above is “incorrect” Presently there are over 300,000 Serbian refugees in Serbia from Kosovo, Croatia, and Slovenia. This was the “destruction” with the intention to ethnically cleanse minority Serb from Kosovo, Croatia, and Slovenia. This is the destruction that happened throughout the former Yugoslavia that should not be simply forgotten nor forgiven.
"Furthermore, Serbias close links with Russia, a state that finds itself at odds with Noth Atlantic Treaty Organization often now days, has to be considered."
Of course Russia is "at odds" whith the western aggression pact, they should be at odds whith anyone trying to install puppet regimes in countries close to Russias border and surround them whith hostile forces and military hardware.
But so should Serbia, itself whith a puppet regime installed, Serbia was bombed and raped by NATO, enough reason to never accept any deal unless the aggression pact appologizes and pay for the flattened infra-structure.
Just because Serbia has had a change of regime, it does not mean it is a stability factor in the region. The fact that Serbia has carried out such destruction throughout the Former Yugoslavia, it can not be forgiven simply because now it has a government that is more or less a 'wolf in sheeps clothing'. Serbia has been, is and will continue to be a factor of disability in the region. Unlike Albania or Kosovo that encourage Albanians in macedonia to participate in its instituions, Serbia fails to do so when it comes to Bosnia, Kosovo etc.
Furthermore, Serbias close links with Russia, a state that finds itself at odds with Noth Atlantic Treaty Organization often now days, has to be considered.
In conclusion I do not think the Kumanovo document can be changed, due to the different realities that exsit between the time when it was signed, and now.
Liburni,
---Serbia has carried out such destruction throughout the former Yugoslavia---
Your statement above is “incorrect” Presently there are over 300,000 Serbian refugees in Serbia from Kosovo, Croatia, and Slovenia. This was the “destruction” with the intention to ethnically cleanse minority Serb from Kosovo, Croatia, and Slovenia. This is the destruction that happened throughout the former Yugoslavia that should not be simply forgotten nor forgiven.
Lets compare say the attitude of the Serbian government with Serbs in Croatia and that of Kosovo Albanian leadership / Albania with Macedonia. Both advocate taking part in institutions.
Now lets look at Kosovo Albanian attitude towards Presevo and for example all that nonsensical flag waving in Bujanovac and the support Albanian terrorist groups (which have now been disbanded) in Serbia proper that received from Kosovo.
Is that the kind of engagement you were talking about?
And frankly who cares whether Russia is liked by the military organisation NATO? That organisation is not even staffed by civilians or elected, so who cares what they think? If you want to make a point about Russia and say its foreign policy, then at least make a good one.
I think that you have made precisely the argument that Serbia is making - albeit with your own contradictory conclusion.
Different realities exist today therefore Kumanovo may also be altered if parties wish it.
I`m sure there will be enough goodwill on both sides (Serbia and NATO)so this agreement can be changed or at leat abolished.
Since the Albanian rebellion in 2001 when they suffered a defeat Serb units were allowed to go in in full capacities.
The only limitations in place are anti aircraft batteries which don`t pose a threat to KFOR.
Anyway, Albanian terrorist supporters will have no veto power on this desition.
Just because Serbia has had a change of regime, it does not mean it is a stability factor in the region. The fact that Serbia has carried out such destruction throughout the Former Yugoslavia, it can not be forgiven simply because now it has a government that is more or less a 'wolf in sheeps clothing'. Serbia has been, is and will continue to be a factor of disability in the region. Unlike Albania or Kosovo that encourage Albanians in macedonia to participate in its instituions, Serbia fails to do so when it comes to Bosnia, Kosovo etc.
Furthermore, Serbias close links with Russia, a state that finds itself at odds with Noth Atlantic Treaty Organization often now days, has to be considered.
In conclusion I do not think the Kumanovo document can be changed, due to the different realities that exsit between the time when it was signed, and now.
As a matter of fact, the US should have a military base in Serbia just like it does in Kosova. Serbia is still actively attempting to destabilize the region as evidenced by it instigating the Republika of Srbska to break away from Bosnia.
The Kumanova agreement set no time limit on how long it would stay in effect. Serbia still has a long way to go before it can be trusted and treat as an equal and only then be a part of the European community.
"Furthermore, Serbias close links with Russia, a state that finds itself at odds with Noth Atlantic Treaty Organization often now days, has to be considered."
Of course Russia is "at odds" whith the western aggression pact, they should be at odds whith anyone trying to install puppet regimes in countries close to Russias border and surround them whith hostile forces and military hardware.
But so should Serbia, itself whith a puppet regime installed, Serbia was bombed and raped by NATO, enough reason to never accept any deal unless the aggression pact appologizes and pay for the flattened infra-structure.
Serbia = factor of stability in Balkans,flourishing economy,stable democracy and good prospects of EU membership.
Albanians= pursue an agressive Greater Albanian nationalism,have ties to Al Qaida (Fort Dix bombing,explosives for London attacks),drug smuggling and prostitution rings,extreme poverty with no perspectives for the young generations.
We have car manufacturers(Zastava-Fiat,Ikarbus,FaP),steel industries (Sartid,Livnica Kikinda),electronics producers (EI Nis,TVs,wash machines,refrigators,medicineequipments),Chemicals (Zupa),pharma industries (Hemofarm,Galenika),mining RTB Bor(largest cooper reserves in Europe),machine industries (MIN Nis),a major oil company with extensive oil fields in Angola (NIS),aviation industries (UTVA Pancevo),weapons manufacturers (Zastava Oruzje),auto parts industry,agroindustries and several others
compared to Kosovo ???Maybe exlusive white pouder ???
It doesn`t take an Einstein to figure out who is a third world society!
As for Vojvodina,sorry about your fantasies but it is inhabited 80 % by Serbs and is Serbian .
Your aggressive nationalist statements only show what a threat to security and prosperity extremist Albanians pose to the Balkans.
Considering the political changes in the world, the revision of Kumanovo's agreement is also in NATO's interest, in order to have a liable partner in Serbia as the biggest country in the Balkans.
#4 What a load of nonsense. The US cannot have a base wherever it wants. It has to either ask for permission or conquor the country. Secondly there is no truth in the statement "instigating the Republika of Srbska to break away from Bosnia" for the simple reason the RS hasn't attempted to break away.
If changes to the Kumanovo Agreement are made, I suspect it will have to be in agreement between Belgrade and EULEX. If they agree, a reconfiguration will take place. If they don't, it doesn't.
>>>>>>>but adds that Priština cannot take part in the negotiations, since the document was signed by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and NATO.
Of course not, but USA rules NATO. Serbs want to bring soldiers close so that they can provoke Albanians, old trick. Expect many such requests from Serbs hoping to show Kosova is still theirs and that Serbia still matters. In March Croatia and Albania join NATO so it will be different.
FYI: Serbs can't even fly a kite in their territory within 25 miles of Kosova border, very humiliating, especially after the bombing. Kosova is under NATO protections anyway, 25 miles or 5 it's the same, until Kosova gets it's army and everything is safe, as NATO is not going anywhere. Look at the map: Plenty of NATO members around Serbia and Kosova.
well, what else is new? "long-forgotten" atrocities, a fraction of which are still making their way through the courts. but tadic claims, believes?? that "serb soldiers have never fired against anyone"?? i would say that this man and his regime are really! scary, frankly delusional, and more to the fact, dangerous.
the current blgd regime is becoming, day by day, increasingly belligerent, bullying, and dangerous. how anyone could paint this as a "stabilizing" force -- it is more than absurd.
i call on the western powers to utterly reject this proposal, which would bring us exactly back to where we were in '99, except that this time serbia is ruled by a true nationalist.
and one more thing -- i call on our frnd Cedi (cedo) to take a principled stance and leave this nationalistic and provocative govt. i have said before that i understand the need to compromise; but enough is enough.
isn't it ironic -- the "radicals" lost, and the "democrats," the real nationalists, won. my frnds in sarajevo were exactly right, all along.
No. Started 4 wars, greatest crimes since WWII. War criminals still free. NATO makes you a 'factor of stability' because you are cornered.
>>>>> flourishing economy
NO. Serbia just got an IMF loan and your currency is losing value. Croatia is 2X richer, Slovenia 3X.
>>>>>stable democracy and good prospects of EU membership.
Stable? Just 5 months ago you burned down Western embassies and the west had to convince Slobodan Milosevic's party to join the pro-Western coalition. Milosevic's people!!! If you ever join EU is because of bribes and hoping to get even more from EU. You are peaceful now because you can't do anything.
What you said about Albanians: who cares. Albania is doing much better and Albania doesn't have a Vojvodina (Hungarian land) to leech of. Kosova has been run a a colony by Serbs, but that has changed now and new roads are being built weekly. One step at a time, Serbia has had independence sin 1800's and is broke, a third world country with $30 billion in debt.
Spare us your lectures about the pervertism of humanity in former Eastern European states.
But I have to agree with you on one point,at least we were not so "humane" to kill 3 million Vietnamese in a total senseless war and to be proud of it like many "humane" Westerners are.
It is an uncomparable sin to do bad things and to portrait themselves as the "beacon of the free world".
It`s called cynicism .
but tadic claims, believes?? that "serb soldiers have never fired against anyone"?? i would say that this man and his regime are really! scary, frankly delusional, and more to the fact, dangerous.
the current blgd regime is becoming, day by day, increasingly belligerent, bullying, and dangerous. how anyone could paint this as a "stabilizing" force -- it is more than absurd.
(roberto, 29 November 2008 20:17)
Roberto, please prove your point by providing cases of political nature VJ or MUP engaged in fire. I did not hear of any, but if you did, please prove, I am wrong. Trivial cases what VJ, MUP, KP or KFOR would equally consider criminal (= driving away with money after armed bank robbery) should not count, but not sure, even such were in the area lately.
In my opinion, demands to keep the zone and label the Serbian government for a mere wish to change the Kumanovo-agreement as "belligerent, bullying, and dangerous" are very good to alienate most "West-oriented" Belgradians. I am curious, what C.J. will tell you on that.
Where I agree with Roberto: the "Kádárian salami tactics" of current Serbian government is indeed by a magnitude more efficient than few tough words and some intensive Russian/Chinese-flag waiving of naives who never even lived in Russia, save in China. The little, insignificant János Kádár with his famous "salami tactics" from an insignificant Soviet "protectorate" was one of the grave-diggers of the Soviet empire. Salami does work, one thin slice after an other. The thinner the slice, the tastier salami is. But at the end all salami will be eaten and all car license plates in Pristina will begin with "PS" ;)
The contrary is also evident: we can say in Hungarian "vesszen mocskos trianon" as much as we like, but precisely the Hungarian nationalists (horthy) and fascists (arrow-cross) were the ones, who cemented the trianon-treaty. With better politicians back in 1920-s the picture today would be very different. Yugoslavia's tragedy was, that at begin during their "trianon" they had similar politicians like Hungary had: nationalists and fascists. Wish, the current government would be in power in early 1990-s. Than, the picture would be very different.
Apropos, "trianon". One was precisely one to many. When will "West" learn, "trianons", "daytons", "kumanovos" won't solve anything? The role of USA in all these treaties was a shame. Even if there is Woodrow Wilson street in Belgrade and Clinton street in Pristina.
I don't understand what Tadic is asking for, they think that they won ICJ against Kosovo, also their 6 points were accepted by the UN, and now they want a revision of Kumanova agreement. I think at the end Serbia will be just Belgrade and some surounding areas. Tadic, Jeremic, Bogdanovic etc know that Sebia has signed a capitulation against NATO and there is no chance for any Sebian force or Police to step in to a Kosovo land. Don't you guys see the reallity that Kosovo is independent country/
Don't you guys see the reallity that Kosovo is independent country/
(sel, 29 November 2008 23:28)
Deja Vue. One thin slice of Hungarian salami after an other + 30 years of salami slicing = Soviet Union had to see the change of the "reality on the ground" and the entire salami was eaten.
This is called "Salami Tactics" of late János Kádár.
Works excellently. All you need is Salami from Szeged (or Zlatibor), a hungry Soviet (or American) and somebody with the name like "János" (or Boris) ;)
Ataman -- re the Salami story: the only salami i've ever really known is the one from the kosher deli, but i had to give it up for lent :) well, actually because it isn't so very healthy, i am mostly vegetarian (oh, what a surprise!) and it is fattening; i'm determined not to get fat like so many of my male, mid-aged peers.
but i was reading a bit about your? Janos kadar, and his many complex and contradictory escapades. what i think about it, despite my belief in the basic commonality of the human condition, is how different it must have been to grow up in occupied eastern europe, while i was growing up here. of course we had so many challenges, internal and external, but it was absolutely nothing compared to the way it must have been in, say, hungary or E germany. or soviet union, or 100 other places. i mean if you managed to survive it with some of your dignity intact, then perhaps it gave you such a tougher moral fiber... sometimes, in an odd way, i feel a stronger connection to (former) e euro dissidents than to political types from the states or W europe.
on the other hand, i think that some folks who grew up in some of these more repressive regimes had a part of their humanity forever removed, perverted.
i do believe that east can meet west, more than in a superficial "capitalist" way -- but it isn't always so ez to traverse the languages...
We have car manufacturers(Zastava-Fiat,Ikarbus,FaP),steel industries (Sartid,Livnica Kikinda),electronics producers (EI Nis,TVs,wash machines,refrigators,medicineequipments),Chemicals (Zupa),pharma industries (Hemofarm,Galenika),mining RTB Bor(largest cooper reserves in Europe),machine industries (MIN Nis),a major oil company with extensive oil fields in Angola (NIS),aviation industries (UTVA Pancevo),weapons manufacturers (Zastava Oruzje),auto parts industry,agroindustries and several others
(CG, 30 November 2008 01:50)
Why these foreign investments that Tito was bringing in Yugo and financed by the evil US where not directed in part in Kosova- the “Serbian holy land”????????
Because sending in Kosva FDIs meant giving jobs to Albanians not to Serbs???
Maybe because Kosova was always overwhelming majority Albanian even in the 50s when these FDIs where coming in Yugo????
Decades of discrimination in every segment of the life we have seen from Yugo/Serbia
One of the strength of Kádár was that he tried to awoid "high minded drawl". The slow "innocent small step-by-innocent small step" tactics worked extremely well and he enjoyed huge popularity among the... simpler people.
Sorry for salami-joke but that really worked and I really have a "deja vue" now. If it works out as I suspect, all my compliments to BT & VJ.
"Now that Serbia has demonstrated that it is a stability factor in the region, there is no reason not to change the accord, which still includes a no-fly zone, Tadić was quoted as saying."
Really, are you willing to bet 12,000 human lives on it Mr. Tadic?
As a matter of fact, the US should have a military base in Serbia just like it does in Kosova. Serbia is still actively attempting to destabilize the region as evidenced by it instigating the Republika of Srbska to break away from Bosnia.
The Kumanova agreement set no time limit on how long it would stay in effect. Serbia still has a long way to go before it can be trusted and treat as an equal and only then be a part of the European community.
Just because Serbia has had a change of regime, it does not mean it is a stability factor in the region. The fact that Serbia has carried out such destruction throughout the Former Yugoslavia, it can not be forgiven simply because now it has a government that is more or less a 'wolf in sheeps clothing'. Serbia has been, is and will continue to be a factor of disability in the region. Unlike Albania or Kosovo that encourage Albanians in macedonia to participate in its instituions, Serbia fails to do so when it comes to Bosnia, Kosovo etc.
Furthermore, Serbias close links with Russia, a state that finds itself at odds with Noth Atlantic Treaty Organization often now days, has to be considered.
In conclusion I do not think the Kumanovo document can be changed, due to the different realities that exsit between the time when it was signed, and now.
"Furthermore, Serbias close links with Russia, a state that finds itself at odds with Noth Atlantic Treaty Organization often now days, has to be considered."
Of course Russia is "at odds" whith the western aggression pact, they should be at odds whith anyone trying to install puppet regimes in countries close to Russias border and surround them whith hostile forces and military hardware.
But so should Serbia, itself whith a puppet regime installed, Serbia was bombed and raped by NATO, enough reason to never accept any deal unless the aggression pact appologizes and pay for the flattened infra-structure.
well, what else is new? "long-forgotten" atrocities, a fraction of which are still making their way through the courts. but tadic claims, believes?? that "serb soldiers have never fired against anyone"?? i would say that this man and his regime are really! scary, frankly delusional, and more to the fact, dangerous.
the current blgd regime is becoming, day by day, increasingly belligerent, bullying, and dangerous. how anyone could paint this as a "stabilizing" force -- it is more than absurd.
i call on the western powers to utterly reject this proposal, which would bring us exactly back to where we were in '99, except that this time serbia is ruled by a true nationalist.
and one more thing -- i call on our frnd Cedi (cedo) to take a principled stance and leave this nationalistic and provocative govt. i have said before that i understand the need to compromise; but enough is enough.
isn't it ironic -- the "radicals" lost, and the "democrats," the real nationalists, won. my frnds in sarajevo were exactly right, all along.
>>>>>>>but adds that Priština cannot take part in the negotiations, since the document was signed by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and NATO.
Of course not, but USA rules NATO. Serbs want to bring soldiers close so that they can provoke Albanians, old trick. Expect many such requests from Serbs hoping to show Kosova is still theirs and that Serbia still matters. In March Croatia and Albania join NATO so it will be different.
FYI: Serbs can't even fly a kite in their territory within 25 miles of Kosova border, very humiliating, especially after the bombing. Kosova is under NATO protections anyway, 25 miles or 5 it's the same, until Kosova gets it's army and everything is safe, as NATO is not going anywhere. Look at the map: Plenty of NATO members around Serbia and Kosova.
I don't understand what Tadic is asking for, they think that they won ICJ against Kosovo, also their 6 points were accepted by the UN, and now they want a revision of Kumanova agreement. I think at the end Serbia will be just Belgrade and some surounding areas. Tadic, Jeremic, Bogdanovic etc know that Sebia has signed a capitulation against NATO and there is no chance for any Sebian force or Police to step in to a Kosovo land. Don't you guys see the reallity that Kosovo is independent country/
No. Started 4 wars, greatest crimes since WWII. War criminals still free. NATO makes you a 'factor of stability' because you are cornered.
>>>>> flourishing economy
NO. Serbia just got an IMF loan and your currency is losing value. Croatia is 2X richer, Slovenia 3X.
>>>>>stable democracy and good prospects of EU membership.
Stable? Just 5 months ago you burned down Western embassies and the west had to convince Slobodan Milosevic's party to join the pro-Western coalition. Milosevic's people!!! If you ever join EU is because of bribes and hoping to get even more from EU. You are peaceful now because you can't do anything.
What you said about Albanians: who cares. Albania is doing much better and Albania doesn't have a Vojvodina (Hungarian land) to leech of. Kosova has been run a a colony by Serbs, but that has changed now and new roads are being built weekly. One step at a time, Serbia has had independence sin 1800's and is broke, a third world country with $30 billion in debt.
Liburni,
---Serbia has carried out such destruction throughout the former Yugoslavia---
Your statement above is “incorrect” Presently there are over 300,000 Serbian refugees in Serbia from Kosovo, Croatia, and Slovenia. This was the “destruction” with the intention to ethnically cleanse minority Serb from Kosovo, Croatia, and Slovenia. This is the destruction that happened throughout the former Yugoslavia that should not be simply forgotten nor forgiven.
Serbia = factor of stability in Balkans,flourishing economy,stable democracy and good prospects of EU membership.
Albanians= pursue an agressive Greater Albanian nationalism,have ties to Al Qaida (Fort Dix bombing,explosives for London attacks),drug smuggling and prostitution rings,extreme poverty with no perspectives for the young generations.
I`m sure there will be enough goodwill on both sides (Serbia and NATO)so this agreement can be changed or at leat abolished.
Since the Albanian rebellion in 2001 when they suffered a defeat Serb units were allowed to go in in full capacities.
The only limitations in place are anti aircraft batteries which don`t pose a threat to KFOR.
Anyway, Albanian terrorist supporters will have no veto power on this desition.
Lets compare say the attitude of the Serbian government with Serbs in Croatia and that of Kosovo Albanian leadership / Albania with Macedonia. Both advocate taking part in institutions.
Now lets look at Kosovo Albanian attitude towards Presevo and for example all that nonsensical flag waving in Bujanovac and the support Albanian terrorist groups (which have now been disbanded) in Serbia proper that received from Kosovo.
Is that the kind of engagement you were talking about?
And frankly who cares whether Russia is liked by the military organisation NATO? That organisation is not even staffed by civilians or elected, so who cares what they think? If you want to make a point about Russia and say its foreign policy, then at least make a good one.
I think that you have made precisely the argument that Serbia is making - albeit with your own contradictory conclusion.
Different realities exist today therefore Kumanovo may also be altered if parties wish it.
#4 What a load of nonsense. The US cannot have a base wherever it wants. It has to either ask for permission or conquor the country. Secondly there is no truth in the statement "instigating the Republika of Srbska to break away from Bosnia" for the simple reason the RS hasn't attempted to break away.
If changes to the Kumanovo Agreement are made, I suspect it will have to be in agreement between Belgrade and EULEX. If they agree, a reconfiguration will take place. If they don't, it doesn't.
We have car manufacturers(Zastava-Fiat,Ikarbus,FaP),steel industries (Sartid,Livnica Kikinda),electronics producers (EI Nis,TVs,wash machines,refrigators,medicineequipments),Chemicals (Zupa),pharma industries (Hemofarm,Galenika),mining RTB Bor(largest cooper reserves in Europe),machine industries (MIN Nis),a major oil company with extensive oil fields in Angola (NIS),aviation industries (UTVA Pancevo),weapons manufacturers (Zastava Oruzje),auto parts industry,agroindustries and several others
compared to Kosovo ???Maybe exlusive white pouder ???
It doesn`t take an Einstein to figure out who is a third world society!
As for Vojvodina,sorry about your fantasies but it is inhabited 80 % by Serbs and is Serbian .
Your aggressive nationalist statements only show what a threat to security and prosperity extremist Albanians pose to the Balkans.
but tadic claims, believes?? that "serb soldiers have never fired against anyone"?? i would say that this man and his regime are really! scary, frankly delusional, and more to the fact, dangerous.
the current blgd regime is becoming, day by day, increasingly belligerent, bullying, and dangerous. how anyone could paint this as a "stabilizing" force -- it is more than absurd.
(roberto, 29 November 2008 20:17)
Roberto, please prove your point by providing cases of political nature VJ or MUP engaged in fire. I did not hear of any, but if you did, please prove, I am wrong. Trivial cases what VJ, MUP, KP or KFOR would equally consider criminal (= driving away with money after armed bank robbery) should not count, but not sure, even such were in the area lately.
In my opinion, demands to keep the zone and label the Serbian government for a mere wish to change the Kumanovo-agreement as "belligerent, bullying, and dangerous" are very good to alienate most "West-oriented" Belgradians. I am curious, what C.J. will tell you on that.
Where I agree with Roberto: the "Kádárian salami tactics" of current Serbian government is indeed by a magnitude more efficient than few tough words and some intensive Russian/Chinese-flag waiving of naives who never even lived in Russia, save in China. The little, insignificant János Kádár with his famous "salami tactics" from an insignificant Soviet "protectorate" was one of the grave-diggers of the Soviet empire. Salami does work, one thin slice after an other. The thinner the slice, the tastier salami is. But at the end all salami will be eaten and all car license plates in Pristina will begin with "PS" ;)
The contrary is also evident: we can say in Hungarian "vesszen mocskos trianon" as much as we like, but precisely the Hungarian nationalists (horthy) and fascists (arrow-cross) were the ones, who cemented the trianon-treaty. With better politicians back in 1920-s the picture today would be very different. Yugoslavia's tragedy was, that at begin during their "trianon" they had similar politicians like Hungary had: nationalists and fascists. Wish, the current government would be in power in early 1990-s. Than, the picture would be very different.
Apropos, "trianon". One was precisely one to many. When will "West" learn, "trianons", "daytons", "kumanovos" won't solve anything? The role of USA in all these treaties was a shame. Even if there is Woodrow Wilson street in Belgrade and Clinton street in Pristina.
Ataman -- re the Salami story: the only salami i've ever really known is the one from the kosher deli, but i had to give it up for lent :) well, actually because it isn't so very healthy, i am mostly vegetarian (oh, what a surprise!) and it is fattening; i'm determined not to get fat like so many of my male, mid-aged peers.
but i was reading a bit about your? Janos kadar, and his many complex and contradictory escapades. what i think about it, despite my belief in the basic commonality of the human condition, is how different it must have been to grow up in occupied eastern europe, while i was growing up here. of course we had so many challenges, internal and external, but it was absolutely nothing compared to the way it must have been in, say, hungary or E germany. or soviet union, or 100 other places. i mean if you managed to survive it with some of your dignity intact, then perhaps it gave you such a tougher moral fiber... sometimes, in an odd way, i feel a stronger connection to (former) e euro dissidents than to political types from the states or W europe.
on the other hand, i think that some folks who grew up in some of these more repressive regimes had a part of their humanity forever removed, perverted.
i do believe that east can meet west, more than in a superficial "capitalist" way -- but it isn't always so ez to traverse the languages...
We have car manufacturers(Zastava-Fiat,Ikarbus,FaP),steel industries (Sartid,Livnica Kikinda),electronics producers (EI Nis,TVs,wash machines,refrigators,medicineequipments),Chemicals (Zupa),pharma industries (Hemofarm,Galenika),mining RTB Bor(largest cooper reserves in Europe),machine industries (MIN Nis),a major oil company with extensive oil fields in Angola (NIS),aviation industries (UTVA Pancevo),weapons manufacturers (Zastava Oruzje),auto parts industry,agroindustries and several others
(CG, 30 November 2008 01:50)
Why these foreign investments that Tito was bringing in Yugo and financed by the evil US where not directed in part in Kosova- the “Serbian holy land”????????
Because sending in Kosva FDIs meant giving jobs to Albanians not to Serbs???
Maybe because Kosova was always overwhelming majority Albanian even in the 50s when these FDIs where coming in Yugo????
Decades of discrimination in every segment of the life we have seen from Yugo/Serbia
Spare us your lectures about the pervertism of humanity in former Eastern European states.
But I have to agree with you on one point,at least we were not so "humane" to kill 3 million Vietnamese in a total senseless war and to be proud of it like many "humane" Westerners are.
It is an uncomparable sin to do bad things and to portrait themselves as the "beacon of the free world".
It`s called cynicism .
Considering the political changes in the world, the revision of Kumanovo's agreement is also in NATO's interest, in order to have a liable partner in Serbia as the biggest country in the Balkans.
Don't you guys see the reallity that Kosovo is independent country/
(sel, 29 November 2008 23:28)
Deja Vue. One thin slice of Hungarian salami after an other + 30 years of salami slicing = Soviet Union had to see the change of the "reality on the ground" and the entire salami was eaten.
This is called "Salami Tactics" of late János Kádár.
Works excellently. All you need is Salami from Szeged (or Zlatibor), a hungry Soviet (or American) and somebody with the name like "János" (or Boris) ;)
One of the strength of Kádár was that he tried to awoid "high minded drawl". The slow "innocent small step-by-innocent small step" tactics worked extremely well and he enjoyed huge popularity among the... simpler people.
Sorry for salami-joke but that really worked and I really have a "deja vue" now. If it works out as I suspect, all my compliments to BT & VJ.
"Now that Serbia has demonstrated that it is a stability factor in the region, there is no reason not to change the accord, which still includes a no-fly zone, Tadić was quoted as saying."
Really, are you willing to bet 12,000 human lives on it Mr. Tadic?
IMAGE SOURCE
25 Komentari
Sortiraj po: