Sanader willing to visit Belgrade

Dragan, Ratko and others, what will the world think when they comments such as yours. Do you really want to stop visits from/by leaders of neighbouring countries? Do you think your cause will be helped by this attitude? Do you want poor relations with your neighbours, and for this to continue? This way you’ll end up in splendid isolation.

For Gods sake, the whole of Europe was at war in early 1940s and the devastation of that war was far worse that the modern Balkan Wars (although each individual tragedy is one too many). But Germany, France, UK and others made peace much more quickly than it seems that Serbia and some other Balkan countries have. Why is this? Are we seeing evidence of the much talked about Balkan stubbornness?

Please, allow yourselves to be persuaded by the possibility that others don’t mean harm and that their intentions can be honourable. I know that most Serbs are able to do this, having been with my Serb partner for nearly a decade. Serbia and the world need people with this positive attitude, rather than a bunch of cynics who are trapped in history.

Stay home Ivo. We don't need you in Belgrade, nor are you welcome there.

Wow!
Sanader must be a great spokesperson, if he is able to clear the air in one day.
Maybe he has a bag of money. Or maybe he will threaten to overtake Serbia, if they are not willing to be diplomatic.

I think tadic will most likely pay for a private charter jet to bring sanader to Beograd. And he will probobly apologize again to sanader for brutal ethnic clensing of Serbs from their homes in croatia.

There is no justification for "Serbian Camp" here, Roberto. It is one of the most diverse "Camps" I can imagine and it became a "Camp" due some trolling. Under normal circumstances what you would expect is a very moderate (compare it with what you see on caboodle-dot-hu where you can say the word "f" and "Jew" together) discussion. You drop in, you say what you say, I agree or disagree and it does not make anything more than that. Most in so-called "Serbian Camp" agree to disagree on certain things. To prove: it's worth to take a closer look to an other interesting fact. Somehow you won't see much Serb-Croatian fighting here. No much fighting was even between traditional "enemies" like Poles and Russians or Hungarians and Romanians. Unfortunately some commenters (let's call them "trolls") cannot distinguish between youtube and B92. That causes uproar. Sometimes I have a feeling, some could be "trolling" by intent. There are barely if any Croatian, Serbian, Romanian, American, German etc. trolls here. In particular, if you notice, Croatian-Serbian fighting is pretty uncommon. Why is that?

BTW: you (and some others) still ow me an explanation what the word "Serb" does mean tough. You guys speak about somewhat, what even scholars are arguing about and probably does not even exist in the form you think. Of course - by intent - I asked a very mean question, knowing, there is no correct answer to it.

Some more about "trolling". Maybe it's not even "trolling", just some people living in medieval environment, while being more-less computer-literate. Beats me, I don't know. I did see some few honest, good postings on "their" side but I can count such on maybe a single hand. It is very-very depressing and speaks a lot, how long is the way "they" have to go. This is a puzzle and I am still looking for the answer.

Sanader is not welcome in Belgrade until he

- apologizes for the ethnic cleansing of 700 000 Serbs and the genocide in WW2
-pays reparation and returns all belongings of the Croatian Serbs
-opens the Croatian markets for Serbian goods like we did for theirs
-take back the recognition of a certain part of Southern Serbia as a state
-restrains from inflamatory statements concerning the Republika Srpska and Serbs in general

If these criterias are met we can talk otherwise stay in your Croatia that was build on genocide anyway.
I agree with the Canadian Serb,we have to look for ourselves,forget about Yugoslavia after our victory in WWI we could have had a Serbia that would have included all Serbs but our dumb king Alexander wanted to see his "brothers" Croatians and Slovenes liberated.
Ironically he was assasinated by the very same in 1934.
Therefore the lesson is :

No more Yugoslavia , long live Serbia !

GRUK,
i am sure you probably have good personal intentions, but lets be realistic. One just has to look back two weeks to see that Croatia has just enabled a lawsuit against Serbia for genocide.
There is no chance in the immediate future for these two separate entities to reconcile.
Maybe never, because if Croatia has good intentions, she sure doesn't know how to portray them.

Sanader has already come to Belgrade at the invitation of Prime Minister Kostunica in 2004.

I generally agree with your post Ataman. It would seem that some are intent on turning the clock back, but they will fail.

Thats not to say that I don't agree that Sanader has concessions to make. But I fail to see how not negotiating with Sanader will help Serbs in Croatia for example.

There is always room for honest, fair negotiations on whichever subject. The lesson we learnt in Serbia in the 90's was that ineffective negotiation leads to conflict.

Things are different now.

Healing words!
Why not straighten up those troubling issues, that would be in everybodys interest of course. But the problem arises from discrepancy between the words and deeds. After awhile 'nice words' loose their meaning if they aren't supported by nice deed or worse- really unfriendly deeds.
One can't be all smiling and lighthearted (as much as we would like that and unfortunately so)
if the other one chooses every opportunity for serious annoyance.So, thanks but no thanks. Championing nice words will bring you only this far.

Thank you GRUK. you are one of the few who has tried to make tha (very impt) distinction between "normal" good folks (who are serb) and very hateful extremist nationalists. i have many frdns from the balkans, incl. serbs and others living in serbia. they are good people, fine and caring, not haters, not spoilers... like anyone else.

on this site, there is the claim of "serb camp" vs the others... i hate using that term, though often it seems like all of the self-identified serb or serb diaspora posters speak of one voice, and it often isn't pretty.

i wish so much that non-nationalist or anti-nationalist serbs or diaspora members would speak up here, since i know that they exist. they should not feel bullied or threatened, no matter what others might say, or how others may "vote."

speak up, with courage, to support freedom and human rights for ALL people.

hope, not hate!

roberto frisco

frisco,
Every Serb is a patriotic Serb. Why do you show bad feelings for Serbian diasphora. Instead, ask yourself why it was come to be that they became Serbian diasphora.
Maybe, the haters and the invaders bombed, raped and destroyed all that they once had. I am sure i don't have to expand on who those invaders are, now do i.
It is time for Serbs to look after themselves and nobody else. The baby sitting program is over.

OK, CG - than it's your turn to clearly explain to me, who Serbs are and how you distinguish between Serbs, Bosnians, Croats, Montenegrins. Sorry, I was "mean" to Roberto, now I am "mean" to you the same way. :)

If you say, the group "A" has special form of the shoe or the group "B" speaks ijekavian, that does not count because Bavarian is far more apart from Saxonian than any ekavian from ijekavian. And variations of national costume are great even from one village to the other.

What else remains? Faith? Good, than if an Orthodox decides to convert to Jehova Witness or a Catholic to Buddhism - what's than? A while ago (1592) was the Bartholomean Night in France. Over 400 years are passed, there should be some evolution.

I recall, begin 90-s our neighbor was in tears. She was born in Croatia, lived in Germany but was denied C. citizenship because she converted from Catholicism to Jehova Witness. Of course it's crazy. But saying "Croats are the Serbs who converted and they aren't Serbs since" is IMO equally crazy.

@ roberto

I would strongly recommend that you turn to your Albanians and tell them to promote human rights for the Serbs in Kosmet since you are so passionate about it.
Still 250 000 Serbs are waiting to return to their homes.
You know,what I can`t really stand is the use of Human Rights as a pretext to advancing geopolitical interests and agression.
I have been to Israel and to Palestine (occupied West bank)and I can tell you that your beloved Israel is a state that discriminates Palestinians with checkpoints on every second mile,killings of civilians,bulldozing houses ,no go hours and on and on and on...
So I would suggest you would start caring about these Human Rights issues first before meddling into other peoples affairs ...


@ b92 I hope you do not censor this.

@Ataman

I don`t know whats the problem,they are Croats,we are Serbs,two seperate natio ns in two seperate states.
If you cannot live together it is better to live side by side...

CG you are confusing two different issues. One is whether Yugoslavia should be re-established. That subject is not on the agenda. And if it was, you can be sure that Sanader would not even come.

The other is whether Sanader should visit Serbia after his last official visit.

Now you would have to persuade me that there is more benefit to be gained from not talking with Sanader, than from talking with him, for me to change my mind and to agree that he should not come.

There is not one solid argument showing that it would help Serbs in any way by not negotiating with Croatia, but I am willing to listen if you have a good one.

I don`t know whats the problem,
(CG, 29 November 2008 15:59)

See, neither I.

--------------

they are Croats,we are Serbs,two seperate natio ns
(CG, 29 November 2008 15:59)

What makes them two separate "nations"? Language? (it's not, besides, ijekavian/ekavian is not even along the so-called "ethnic" lines.) Faith? (it shouldn't be). National costume? (rubbish, besides, Dalmatians should stay separate from Zagrebians than). What else remains?

--------------

in two seperate states.
(CG, 29 November 2008 15:59)

This is true. Like Austria and Germany are two separate states. Or W. Germany/E. Germany used to be - and to a large degree in people's mind still are.

--------------

If you cannot live together it is better to live side by side...
(CG, 29 November 2008 15:59)

Fine, but at a certain point it is worth to confront the question, why you cannot. Than later confront an other question: "who really am I and who are they and why". If you cannot answer on the later one: that means, all blood, all tears, all suffering was probably FOR NOTHING. Both sides lost several decades and from being by far the most advanced country in Central/East Europe became a bunch of... losers. For whatever internal or external reason.

In the meantime, some "Croats" and "Serbs" (whatever these words could mean) make excellent engineers in the Silicon Valley (south of SF) or Irvine area (south of LA). If you use WDC drives, you touch a product with significant YU (more precisely, ZG) part of design, for instance. In contrast, Quantum harddrive cache management was Russian and Romanian. How far did Maxtor (later Seagate) inherit it, was after my time.

At one point, these (now not that young) YU-ans/Romanians/Shqips/Russians etc. will retire back to their birthplace and the design will go to China. Than, God should have mercy on all of you (=customers).

A part of my hope towards Obama is precisely that such disaster won't happen that easy.

@CG

and you know what i can't stand: i can't stand when you or anyone else try to tell me what i should or should not be writing about. i am immune to all of that cyber-bullying, but unfortunately some others are not. write what you must, but don't EVER tell me what i should or shouldn't write.

i will absolutely continue to write about and advocate for human rights, incl. and esp. in the balkans, in the tradition (though not nearly as articulate) as helsinki committee and their peers. just because certain people have tried to pervert and expropriate the concept of human rights, does not make it one bit less valid. more people need to support human rights, or at least try to comprehend them -- not fewer.

as far as "my albanians" -- they are not "mine," i do not speak for all of them, they are individuals with a variety of opinions, backgrounds, POVs, etc. since the serbs here (understandably) wish to be viewed as individuals, i think it is quite understandable that other posters wish and deserve the same.

and yes, i have expressed my human rights positions to my (ethnic) albanian frnds and colleagues, incl the struggle for human and civil rights for ALL people of Kosovo/a (since you mentioned it.) some have agreed with me, sometimes not -- i cannot force others (obviously) to accept my pov, but yes, i do put it out there. many times i have written criticizing attacks of one sort or another on serbs or serb institutions in kosovo/a. i think i am pretty consistent about it, but obviously people read what they want. ALL people in kosovo/a deserve protection for their human and civil rights, obviously. in my opinion that will happen in the country of Kosovo/a, and not under some warped and racist partition plan.

Mathew: I recognize that not all of the serb-identified posters are the "same." and yes, i know that you consider yourself "moderate," and i appreciate that. but in terms of the way that people deal with, speak to and at the albanian posters on this site, there is very little difference. and the worst offense to me is that on almost a daily basis the ugliest slurs are lobbed against them, and i see NO ONe of your "camp" complaining, or taking public offense. so it is really hard to accept this "moderate" thing very seriously. as far as my "otpor" issues, it is really too upsetting for me to even discuss.

as for the israeli-palestinian conflict, i'm not saying any of the concerns expressed are unjustified, but it is, no offense, a really cheap way to try to silence a self-identified jew.

i have every right to say how i feel about any subject, whatever is happening in the middle east, or whatever is my opinion. being a jew does not somehow lock me in to certain cyber-sites. that is just silly.

it does so happen that i am very critical of many of the israeli policies (and palestinian as well,)i have written this here before and repeated it many times over the years. once i was part of the "peace now" campaign. not that i owe that explanation, but since you asked...

as for mostar, i stick with exactly what i said, but have no time now. to be continued...

thank you.

roberto

Stay home Ivo. We don't need you in Belgrade, nor are you welcome there.

I think tadic will most likely pay for a private charter jet to bring sanader to Beograd. And he will probobly apologize again to sanader for brutal ethnic clensing of Serbs from their homes in croatia.

Dragan, Ratko and others, what will the world think when they comments such as yours. Do you really want to stop visits from/by leaders of neighbouring countries? Do you think your cause will be helped by this attitude? Do you want poor relations with your neighbours, and for this to continue? This way you’ll end up in splendid isolation.

For Gods sake, the whole of Europe was at war in early 1940s and the devastation of that war was far worse that the modern Balkan Wars (although each individual tragedy is one too many). But Germany, France, UK and others made peace much more quickly than it seems that Serbia and some other Balkan countries have. Why is this? Are we seeing evidence of the much talked about Balkan stubbornness?

Please, allow yourselves to be persuaded by the possibility that others don’t mean harm and that their intentions can be honourable. I know that most Serbs are able to do this, having been with my Serb partner for nearly a decade. Serbia and the world need people with this positive attitude, rather than a bunch of cynics who are trapped in history.

Thank you GRUK. you are one of the few who has tried to make tha (very impt) distinction between "normal" good folks (who are serb) and very hateful extremist nationalists. i have many frdns from the balkans, incl. serbs and others living in serbia. they are good people, fine and caring, not haters, not spoilers... like anyone else.

on this site, there is the claim of "serb camp" vs the others... i hate using that term, though often it seems like all of the self-identified serb or serb diaspora posters speak of one voice, and it often isn't pretty.

i wish so much that non-nationalist or anti-nationalist serbs or diaspora members would speak up here, since i know that they exist. they should not feel bullied or threatened, no matter what others might say, or how others may "vote."

speak up, with courage, to support freedom and human rights for ALL people.

hope, not hate!

roberto frisco

GRUK,
i am sure you probably have good personal intentions, but lets be realistic. One just has to look back two weeks to see that Croatia has just enabled a lawsuit against Serbia for genocide.
There is no chance in the immediate future for these two separate entities to reconcile.
Maybe never, because if Croatia has good intentions, she sure doesn't know how to portray them.

frisco,
Every Serb is a patriotic Serb. Why do you show bad feelings for Serbian diasphora. Instead, ask yourself why it was come to be that they became Serbian diasphora.
Maybe, the haters and the invaders bombed, raped and destroyed all that they once had. I am sure i don't have to expand on who those invaders are, now do i.
It is time for Serbs to look after themselves and nobody else. The baby sitting program is over.

Wow!
Sanader must be a great spokesperson, if he is able to clear the air in one day.
Maybe he has a bag of money. Or maybe he will threaten to overtake Serbia, if they are not willing to be diplomatic.

Healing words!
Why not straighten up those troubling issues, that would be in everybodys interest of course. But the problem arises from discrepancy between the words and deeds. After awhile 'nice words' loose their meaning if they aren't supported by nice deed or worse- really unfriendly deeds.
One can't be all smiling and lighthearted (as much as we would like that and unfortunately so)
if the other one chooses every opportunity for serious annoyance.So, thanks but no thanks. Championing nice words will bring you only this far.

Sanader is not welcome in Belgrade until he

- apologizes for the ethnic cleansing of 700 000 Serbs and the genocide in WW2
-pays reparation and returns all belongings of the Croatian Serbs
-opens the Croatian markets for Serbian goods like we did for theirs
-take back the recognition of a certain part of Southern Serbia as a state
-restrains from inflamatory statements concerning the Republika Srpska and Serbs in general

If these criterias are met we can talk otherwise stay in your Croatia that was build on genocide anyway.
I agree with the Canadian Serb,we have to look for ourselves,forget about Yugoslavia after our victory in WWI we could have had a Serbia that would have included all Serbs but our dumb king Alexander wanted to see his "brothers" Croatians and Slovenes liberated.
Ironically he was assasinated by the very same in 1934.
Therefore the lesson is :

No more Yugoslavia , long live Serbia !

Sanader has already come to Belgrade at the invitation of Prime Minister Kostunica in 2004.

I generally agree with your post Ataman. It would seem that some are intent on turning the clock back, but they will fail.

Thats not to say that I don't agree that Sanader has concessions to make. But I fail to see how not negotiating with Sanader will help Serbs in Croatia for example.

There is always room for honest, fair negotiations on whichever subject. The lesson we learnt in Serbia in the 90's was that ineffective negotiation leads to conflict.

Things are different now.

CG you are confusing two different issues. One is whether Yugoslavia should be re-established. That subject is not on the agenda. And if it was, you can be sure that Sanader would not even come.

The other is whether Sanader should visit Serbia after his last official visit.

Now you would have to persuade me that there is more benefit to be gained from not talking with Sanader, than from talking with him, for me to change my mind and to agree that he should not come.

There is not one solid argument showing that it would help Serbs in any way by not negotiating with Croatia, but I am willing to listen if you have a good one.

There is no justification for "Serbian Camp" here, Roberto. It is one of the most diverse "Camps" I can imagine and it became a "Camp" due some trolling. Under normal circumstances what you would expect is a very moderate (compare it with what you see on caboodle-dot-hu where you can say the word "f" and "Jew" together) discussion. You drop in, you say what you say, I agree or disagree and it does not make anything more than that. Most in so-called "Serbian Camp" agree to disagree on certain things. To prove: it's worth to take a closer look to an other interesting fact. Somehow you won't see much Serb-Croatian fighting here. No much fighting was even between traditional "enemies" like Poles and Russians or Hungarians and Romanians. Unfortunately some commenters (let's call them "trolls") cannot distinguish between youtube and B92. That causes uproar. Sometimes I have a feeling, some could be "trolling" by intent. There are barely if any Croatian, Serbian, Romanian, American, German etc. trolls here. In particular, if you notice, Croatian-Serbian fighting is pretty uncommon. Why is that?

BTW: you (and some others) still ow me an explanation what the word "Serb" does mean tough. You guys speak about somewhat, what even scholars are arguing about and probably does not even exist in the form you think. Of course - by intent - I asked a very mean question, knowing, there is no correct answer to it.

Some more about "trolling". Maybe it's not even "trolling", just some people living in medieval environment, while being more-less computer-literate. Beats me, I don't know. I did see some few honest, good postings on "their" side but I can count such on maybe a single hand. It is very-very depressing and speaks a lot, how long is the way "they" have to go. This is a puzzle and I am still looking for the answer.

OK, CG - than it's your turn to clearly explain to me, who Serbs are and how you distinguish between Serbs, Bosnians, Croats, Montenegrins. Sorry, I was "mean" to Roberto, now I am "mean" to you the same way. :)

If you say, the group "A" has special form of the shoe or the group "B" speaks ijekavian, that does not count because Bavarian is far more apart from Saxonian than any ekavian from ijekavian. And variations of national costume are great even from one village to the other.

What else remains? Faith? Good, than if an Orthodox decides to convert to Jehova Witness or a Catholic to Buddhism - what's than? A while ago (1592) was the Bartholomean Night in France. Over 400 years are passed, there should be some evolution.

I recall, begin 90-s our neighbor was in tears. She was born in Croatia, lived in Germany but was denied C. citizenship because she converted from Catholicism to Jehova Witness. Of course it's crazy. But saying "Croats are the Serbs who converted and they aren't Serbs since" is IMO equally crazy.

@ roberto

I would strongly recommend that you turn to your Albanians and tell them to promote human rights for the Serbs in Kosmet since you are so passionate about it.
Still 250 000 Serbs are waiting to return to their homes.
You know,what I can`t really stand is the use of Human Rights as a pretext to advancing geopolitical interests and agression.
I have been to Israel and to Palestine (occupied West bank)and I can tell you that your beloved Israel is a state that discriminates Palestinians with checkpoints on every second mile,killings of civilians,bulldozing houses ,no go hours and on and on and on...
So I would suggest you would start caring about these Human Rights issues first before meddling into other peoples affairs ...


@ b92 I hope you do not censor this.

@Ataman

I don`t know whats the problem,they are Croats,we are Serbs,two seperate natio ns in two seperate states.
If you cannot live together it is better to live side by side...

I don`t know whats the problem,
(CG, 29 November 2008 15:59)

See, neither I.

--------------

they are Croats,we are Serbs,two seperate natio ns
(CG, 29 November 2008 15:59)

What makes them two separate "nations"? Language? (it's not, besides, ijekavian/ekavian is not even along the so-called "ethnic" lines.) Faith? (it shouldn't be). National costume? (rubbish, besides, Dalmatians should stay separate from Zagrebians than). What else remains?

--------------

in two seperate states.
(CG, 29 November 2008 15:59)

This is true. Like Austria and Germany are two separate states. Or W. Germany/E. Germany used to be - and to a large degree in people's mind still are.

--------------

If you cannot live together it is better to live side by side...
(CG, 29 November 2008 15:59)

Fine, but at a certain point it is worth to confront the question, why you cannot. Than later confront an other question: "who really am I and who are they and why". If you cannot answer on the later one: that means, all blood, all tears, all suffering was probably FOR NOTHING. Both sides lost several decades and from being by far the most advanced country in Central/East Europe became a bunch of... losers. For whatever internal or external reason.

In the meantime, some "Croats" and "Serbs" (whatever these words could mean) make excellent engineers in the Silicon Valley (south of SF) or Irvine area (south of LA). If you use WDC drives, you touch a product with significant YU (more precisely, ZG) part of design, for instance. In contrast, Quantum harddrive cache management was Russian and Romanian. How far did Maxtor (later Seagate) inherit it, was after my time.

At one point, these (now not that young) YU-ans/Romanians/Shqips/Russians etc. will retire back to their birthplace and the design will go to China. Than, God should have mercy on all of you (=customers).

A part of my hope towards Obama is precisely that such disaster won't happen that easy.

@CG

and you know what i can't stand: i can't stand when you or anyone else try to tell me what i should or should not be writing about. i am immune to all of that cyber-bullying, but unfortunately some others are not. write what you must, but don't EVER tell me what i should or shouldn't write.

i will absolutely continue to write about and advocate for human rights, incl. and esp. in the balkans, in the tradition (though not nearly as articulate) as helsinki committee and their peers. just because certain people have tried to pervert and expropriate the concept of human rights, does not make it one bit less valid. more people need to support human rights, or at least try to comprehend them -- not fewer.

as far as "my albanians" -- they are not "mine," i do not speak for all of them, they are individuals with a variety of opinions, backgrounds, POVs, etc. since the serbs here (understandably) wish to be viewed as individuals, i think it is quite understandable that other posters wish and deserve the same.

and yes, i have expressed my human rights positions to my (ethnic) albanian frnds and colleagues, incl the struggle for human and civil rights for ALL people of Kosovo/a (since you mentioned it.) some have agreed with me, sometimes not -- i cannot force others (obviously) to accept my pov, but yes, i do put it out there. many times i have written criticizing attacks of one sort or another on serbs or serb institutions in kosovo/a. i think i am pretty consistent about it, but obviously people read what they want. ALL people in kosovo/a deserve protection for their human and civil rights, obviously. in my opinion that will happen in the country of Kosovo/a, and not under some warped and racist partition plan.

Mathew: I recognize that not all of the serb-identified posters are the "same." and yes, i know that you consider yourself "moderate," and i appreciate that. but in terms of the way that people deal with, speak to and at the albanian posters on this site, there is very little difference. and the worst offense to me is that on almost a daily basis the ugliest slurs are lobbed against them, and i see NO ONe of your "camp" complaining, or taking public offense. so it is really hard to accept this "moderate" thing very seriously. as far as my "otpor" issues, it is really too upsetting for me to even discuss.

as for the israeli-palestinian conflict, i'm not saying any of the concerns expressed are unjustified, but it is, no offense, a really cheap way to try to silence a self-identified jew.

i have every right to say how i feel about any subject, whatever is happening in the middle east, or whatever is my opinion. being a jew does not somehow lock me in to certain cyber-sites. that is just silly.

it does so happen that i am very critical of many of the israeli policies (and palestinian as well,)i have written this here before and repeated it many times over the years. once i was part of the "peace now" campaign. not that i owe that explanation, but since you asked...

as for mostar, i stick with exactly what i said, but have no time now. to be continued...

thank you.

roberto