Santa banned in Sarajevo nurseries

And this country has European aspirations? Whatever, they can continue this behaviour and be an isolated Muslim island that Europe will not accept into its institutions. This is why Turkey will also never get into the EU! At least the Albanians are truly secular, but the other two only pretend to be so they can benefit from the EU. Who really want so welcome them when they keep hearing about their draconian, backwards ideas that are simply not compatible with the West?

So much for a secular, all inclusive society. Bosnia seems to be going backwards, not forwards. instead of burying the hatchet and integrating, all sides seem intent on putting up more barriers. if this continues bosnia will break apart again, probably violently. I'm sure nobody wants to see another long bloody war in the balkans. here's hoping people come to their senses - but then again, it is the balkans !!!!

This is insane.

Pay attention to the words. Who was banned is not even the "Christian" "Santa" ( = Saint Nickolas) but the largely faith-neutral "Father Frost" ( = Deda Mraz, Dedek Mraz, Дед Мороз, etc.), a forest wizard in Slavic mythology, popularized since 19th Century by works of Alexandr Ostrovsky and Rimski-Korsakov. His roots are much older tough, before Slavs took the Christianity.

See the fine difference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ded_Moroz

By no means "Ded Moroz" does equal Santa. He is even dressed differently. Like every self-respecting wizard, he has a LONG mantle, long wizard staff and he is NEVER(!!!) fat.

His "official" residence is not on North Pole or in Finland (like of Santa), but in Veliky Ustyug

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veliky_Ustyug

AFAIK, Bosnians are speaking a Slavic dialect - aren't they? So what is the problem of that idiot who made this stupid decision?

My spies tell me, the "Father Frost" is one of the Russians who is welcome even in Pristina...Because he is completely faith-neutral. Even Tatars from ex-Golden Horde (hardly Catholic or Orthodox) have him on their side as "Qıº Babay"

AFAIK, Bosnians are speaking a Slavic dialect - aren't they? So what is the problem of that idiot who made this stupid decision? Perhaps he should consider a permanent family move to the most backwards part of Saudi Arabia. At last, there is no frost there and there will be a perfect cultural match for such people.

Bosnia isn't going islamic at all but as a ruined country that it is people like Mahmut-ovic (that reminds of the pashas who fought the Catholic Albanians in north) cannot be dealt with.

We do need places like Guantanamo.

If the RS tried to ban "something Islamic" in the RS, Serbs would not hear the end of it. Why does the world continue to protect the Islamic nationalist.

Arzija Ović needs to be banned and jailed. Why are there religous studies in nurseries anyway. That is irrelevant! How about teaching them math, science, language. My oh my it shows that the Muslim Bosnians are running backwards.

Serbs and Croats will eventually get what is theirs and Muslim Slavs will have nobody to blame. They will eventually become a safe haven for terrorists.

Roberto,

To say somewhat good about the area: yes, that "you killed the Jesus" isn't unknown all over Europe, Balkan area being a refreshing exception.

There is a host of all different kind of "End-Of-The-Year" wizards in the area. It is very confusing, but here is the scoop. Hope I did not goof up somewhat.

1) Mostly for Catholics, there is a great gift-giving time on December 6. This is the day of St. Nick (for Catholics) and kids are expecting some stuff to get. Typically, in Germany, Vojvodina, Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia, some part of AL/KS this will be the case.

2) Some Orthodox communities have the day of St. Nick on December 19 - precisely 13 days later. These communities use the "old" (Gregorian) calendar for religious days, except the Easter (which is determined differently). Typically, Orthodox churches in Serbia, FYROM, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus (not sure about Georgia and Armenia) use that calendar.

This St. Nick is precisely the "American" Santa. In the States he was put in the role of "Jesus-Child". Because as good as St. Nick is, he should be NOT responsible for the giving on Dec. 24/25, it's his "boss" responsibility in person. :)

3) Here comes the evening of Dec. 24. It is a pretty odd timing in both SRB and RU/UA/BY/(GE?)/AR(?). Because they "know" the "correct"(?) calendar, but for "them" the X'mas time is not there yet. For Catholics/Protestants/etc. (and even Orthodox in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania) this IS the X'mas time.

The gift-giver is in most cases "Child Jesus" (Christkindl in German). Sometimes (for Croats Bozic Bata, for Bulgarians similarly) it's not Jesus, but the old "Russian" wizard. French also have "their" wizard (Pere Noel). They look like Santa at first sight, but are not - because Santa is the "Americanized" version of St. Nick - who should be 18 days earlier. In northern Germany it's "Weinachtsmann" (X'mas man). In Hungary - "Jézuska" (small Jesus).

4) The evening of Dec. 31 is the day of "Russian" wizard, even in some K-Albanian places and all over Bosnia. He is the one, who was "banned" in Sarajevo and Croats/Serbs (I am sure, many Bosnian muslims, too) got upset and took the kids in the Serbian part. Ideally, all holidays (we also do Hanukkah and Chinese New Year plus the Thanksgiving) are celebrated and that idiot just spoiled the New Year Eve for the kids.

5) January 6 is the X'mas for Orthodox christians who follow the "old" calendar. This is RS, SRB, RU, UA, BY, probably GE and/or AR (not sure). However, you don't need to be a "christian" - many Russian Jews who live in Brooklyn have two X'mas parties. One is the "New X'mas", the other is the "Old X'mas". Many Serbs have one (on January 6), but some - like Russians living in exile - have two.

6) January 13 is the "Old New Year" (same areas celebrate as "old X'mas"). This is the day when "Grandfather Frost" may appear before retiring for almost a year.

You may notice, some areas like Vojvodina or Kosovo may have 6 (six!) holidays in the row. In Vojvodina many kids regardless of the religious background DO EXPECT to see different versions of the St. Nick/Santa/Deda Mraz all six times. But the greetings are very different on the two X'mas (more later).

Whom you did see in Berlin was St. Nick. They may "push" him back in time "American" way, but it's completely alien for Germans. They have "Christkindl" (in South, literally: "Jesus-Child") or "Weinachtsmann" in North (literally: X'mas man, roughly the "Ded Moroz") for X'mas and St. Nick ("Santa") for Dec. 6.

Like D.M., Weinactsman does not say "ho, ho, ho", he is skinny, has long staff and does all kind of good wizardy (regarding gifts, that is). Probably a proof, German tribes did not live far away from Slavic tribes a while ago.

As promised - the two ways of greetings.

1) You wish "merry X'mas" BEFORE the X'mas for Dec. 24/25/26 ("new X'mas")
2) In the morning of the "old X'mas" you greet the others with the words: "Christos was born!". The answer will be: "Indeed, was born!".
In areas like Vojvodina many people pay attention to both rituals.

I am not sure, but I am assuming that in Vojvodina the entire Dec. 6 - Jan. 13 period is a great challenge for parent's wallet and the mom's cooking/household organization skills.

It is IMO a good idea to put less stress on the wallet and do not have a "gift race". But parties are OK, of course, the more the better, people should celebrate whatever reason they have. Hanukkah and Lunar New Year included.

After incidents like these its no wonder serbs and croats want to split. I hope the EU and America are happy with the monster they have created in Sarajovo. Kosovo will turn out to be another mistake. But like always western powers will realize this to late. Europe is Christian and let it remain that way.

First stop calling our area of the world the Balkans. It should be called Southeastern Europe. Balkan is a Turkish word and both the Serbs and Croats can agree that we are not Turks.

Second did noone see this coming. An Islamic state in Europe. Islam is not a tolerant religion. However, the Serbs know how to deal with them. The real question is how will croatia react after bombs go off in Zagreb.

Call me crazy but do not be surprised if the Croats and Serbs are joined together again like at the battle of Kosovo.

Due to the Ottoman invasion, Croatia shrunk territorially, it was turned into a narrow belt stretching from the border with Austrian provinces and the river Drava, via durdevac, Bjelovar, Sisak, Karlovac, Otocac and Senj to Rijeka, while its eastern part across the Croatian Military Border became the Bosnia and Herzegovina of today. Having lost its ethnic and political space, Croatia lost nearly two thirds of its territory that comprises Bosnia and Herzegovina and which prior to the Ottoman depredations was a part of the Croat nation. The Bosnians Muslims of today are the forcible Croat converts to Islam, and Bosnia and Herzegovina are lost Croat territories.

"(...) when children grew up (...) they would behave in line with what they were taught during their formative years."

I doubt that. I played a lot of PacMan in my younger days, and I don't run around in dark cellars, dressed in yellow, and eating red, green, and blue monsters.
--

Please help me, Ataman! i can't quite figure out if "they" are trying to ban our fat yet jolly and giving Santa Claus, or the skinny, half-freezing old guy i saw on the streets of Berlin, shortly after reunification, pushing some silly capitalist merchandise for a few pfenning an hour... i think he was from the east, and i bought him some hot cocoa, feeling terribly sorry for him, and noting the many layers of irony. He was called "Santa Klaus."

actually, sordid confession: way back in pre-historic times (the 50s) when i was 4 and my little catholic gal-pal was five, i ruined her Xmas by telling her, as i had learned, that there was no Santa. i still feel bad about that.

she, on the other hand, would patiently explain that "we" had killed Jesus (the lord), which rather angered my mother.

also, my frnd told me to recite the lord's prayer before i went to bed, so that if i died in my sleep i wouldn't go to hell (probably just pergatory.) and if i couldn't remember the prayer, just say "Jesus Christ" before bedtime, and it would be okay.

funny, the things you remember, on your way to the top (?)

really, sarajevo, please don't take Santa, or father Xmas away from the little children. let them have a little bit of fun and fantasy before growing up to such a nice world...

roberto

Ataman -- wow, that was pretty amazing. ask -- and i shall find, kind of like amazing grace :) once i was lost, but now i'm found...

i am woefully ignorant of varied x-ian (christian) rituals, even here, not to mention round the world, and so many others. altho at my middle school we try to incorporate as many as possible. inclusion and pluralism are really not such bad or threatening concepts.

i also have frdns that celebrate Bajram, altho the one good bosniak frnd here has never invited me to come to his. perhaps because i'm jewish? or that everyone there is speaking "serbo-croatian" and i am struggling to keep up.

as for Hannukah, it is a bit late this year, and intersects (western) Xmas. my holiday party will be the last day of hannukah (dec 28th) and yr welcome to come (w/family) if you're in the vicinity. i can send directions...

one more thing -- several times i have sent little messages/reminders about major jewish holidays (passover, our "pesach", or yom kippur) but unlike many other globally celebrated holidays, it is never posted as "news" here. which for me is quite troubling and problematic.

also perhaps you noticed that in this recent HATE attack in Bombay, a rabbi and his wife were murdered, not by accident. it leaves me with the sickest feeling.

anyway, thanks, dobri dehn. Spasibo.

roberto
robertoruss@yahoo.com

"(...) when children grew up (...) they would behave in line with what they were taught during their formative years."

I doubt that. I played a lot of PacMan in my younger days, and I don't run around in dark cellars, dressed in yellow, and eating red, green, and blue monsters.
--

Please help me, Ataman! i can't quite figure out if "they" are trying to ban our fat yet jolly and giving Santa Claus, or the skinny, half-freezing old guy i saw on the streets of Berlin, shortly after reunification, pushing some silly capitalist merchandise for a few pfenning an hour... i think he was from the east, and i bought him some hot cocoa, feeling terribly sorry for him, and noting the many layers of irony. He was called "Santa Klaus."

actually, sordid confession: way back in pre-historic times (the 50s) when i was 4 and my little catholic gal-pal was five, i ruined her Xmas by telling her, as i had learned, that there was no Santa. i still feel bad about that.

she, on the other hand, would patiently explain that "we" had killed Jesus (the lord), which rather angered my mother.

also, my frnd told me to recite the lord's prayer before i went to bed, so that if i died in my sleep i wouldn't go to hell (probably just pergatory.) and if i couldn't remember the prayer, just say "Jesus Christ" before bedtime, and it would be okay.

funny, the things you remember, on your way to the top (?)

really, sarajevo, please don't take Santa, or father Xmas away from the little children. let them have a little bit of fun and fantasy before growing up to such a nice world...

roberto

Ataman -- wow, that was pretty amazing. ask -- and i shall find, kind of like amazing grace :) once i was lost, but now i'm found...

i am woefully ignorant of varied x-ian (christian) rituals, even here, not to mention round the world, and so many others. altho at my middle school we try to incorporate as many as possible. inclusion and pluralism are really not such bad or threatening concepts.

i also have frdns that celebrate Bajram, altho the one good bosniak frnd here has never invited me to come to his. perhaps because i'm jewish? or that everyone there is speaking "serbo-croatian" and i am struggling to keep up.

as for Hannukah, it is a bit late this year, and intersects (western) Xmas. my holiday party will be the last day of hannukah (dec 28th) and yr welcome to come (w/family) if you're in the vicinity. i can send directions...

one more thing -- several times i have sent little messages/reminders about major jewish holidays (passover, our "pesach", or yom kippur) but unlike many other globally celebrated holidays, it is never posted as "news" here. which for me is quite troubling and problematic.

also perhaps you noticed that in this recent HATE attack in Bombay, a rabbi and his wife were murdered, not by accident. it leaves me with the sickest feeling.

anyway, thanks, dobri dehn. Spasibo.

roberto
robertoruss@yahoo.com

So much for a secular, all inclusive society. Bosnia seems to be going backwards, not forwards. instead of burying the hatchet and integrating, all sides seem intent on putting up more barriers. if this continues bosnia will break apart again, probably violently. I'm sure nobody wants to see another long bloody war in the balkans. here's hoping people come to their senses - but then again, it is the balkans !!!!

If the RS tried to ban "something Islamic" in the RS, Serbs would not hear the end of it. Why does the world continue to protect the Islamic nationalist.

Arzija Ović needs to be banned and jailed. Why are there religous studies in nurseries anyway. That is irrelevant! How about teaching them math, science, language. My oh my it shows that the Muslim Bosnians are running backwards.

Serbs and Croats will eventually get what is theirs and Muslim Slavs will have nobody to blame. They will eventually become a safe haven for terrorists.

First stop calling our area of the world the Balkans. It should be called Southeastern Europe. Balkan is a Turkish word and both the Serbs and Croats can agree that we are not Turks.

Second did noone see this coming. An Islamic state in Europe. Islam is not a tolerant religion. However, the Serbs know how to deal with them. The real question is how will croatia react after bombs go off in Zagreb.

Call me crazy but do not be surprised if the Croats and Serbs are joined together again like at the battle of Kosovo.

Due to the Ottoman invasion, Croatia shrunk territorially, it was turned into a narrow belt stretching from the border with Austrian provinces and the river Drava, via durdevac, Bjelovar, Sisak, Karlovac, Otocac and Senj to Rijeka, while its eastern part across the Croatian Military Border became the Bosnia and Herzegovina of today. Having lost its ethnic and political space, Croatia lost nearly two thirds of its territory that comprises Bosnia and Herzegovina and which prior to the Ottoman depredations was a part of the Croat nation. The Bosnians Muslims of today are the forcible Croat converts to Islam, and Bosnia and Herzegovina are lost Croat territories.

And this country has European aspirations? Whatever, they can continue this behaviour and be an isolated Muslim island that Europe will not accept into its institutions. This is why Turkey will also never get into the EU! At least the Albanians are truly secular, but the other two only pretend to be so they can benefit from the EU. Who really want so welcome them when they keep hearing about their draconian, backwards ideas that are simply not compatible with the West?

Bosnia isn't going islamic at all but as a ruined country that it is people like Mahmut-ovic (that reminds of the pashas who fought the Catholic Albanians in north) cannot be dealt with.

We do need places like Guantanamo.

After incidents like these its no wonder serbs and croats want to split. I hope the EU and America are happy with the monster they have created in Sarajovo. Kosovo will turn out to be another mistake. But like always western powers will realize this to late. Europe is Christian and let it remain that way.

This is insane.

Pay attention to the words. Who was banned is not even the "Christian" "Santa" ( = Saint Nickolas) but the largely faith-neutral "Father Frost" ( = Deda Mraz, Dedek Mraz, Дед Мороз, etc.), a forest wizard in Slavic mythology, popularized since 19th Century by works of Alexandr Ostrovsky and Rimski-Korsakov. His roots are much older tough, before Slavs took the Christianity.

See the fine difference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ded_Moroz

By no means "Ded Moroz" does equal Santa. He is even dressed differently. Like every self-respecting wizard, he has a LONG mantle, long wizard staff and he is NEVER(!!!) fat.

His "official" residence is not on North Pole or in Finland (like of Santa), but in Veliky Ustyug

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veliky_Ustyug

AFAIK, Bosnians are speaking a Slavic dialect - aren't they? So what is the problem of that idiot who made this stupid decision?

My spies tell me, the "Father Frost" is one of the Russians who is welcome even in Pristina...Because he is completely faith-neutral. Even Tatars from ex-Golden Horde (hardly Catholic or Orthodox) have him on their side as "Qıº Babay"

AFAIK, Bosnians are speaking a Slavic dialect - aren't they? So what is the problem of that idiot who made this stupid decision? Perhaps he should consider a permanent family move to the most backwards part of Saudi Arabia. At last, there is no frost there and there will be a perfect cultural match for such people.

Roberto,

To say somewhat good about the area: yes, that "you killed the Jesus" isn't unknown all over Europe, Balkan area being a refreshing exception.

There is a host of all different kind of "End-Of-The-Year" wizards in the area. It is very confusing, but here is the scoop. Hope I did not goof up somewhat.

1) Mostly for Catholics, there is a great gift-giving time on December 6. This is the day of St. Nick (for Catholics) and kids are expecting some stuff to get. Typically, in Germany, Vojvodina, Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia, some part of AL/KS this will be the case.

2) Some Orthodox communities have the day of St. Nick on December 19 - precisely 13 days later. These communities use the "old" (Gregorian) calendar for religious days, except the Easter (which is determined differently). Typically, Orthodox churches in Serbia, FYROM, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus (not sure about Georgia and Armenia) use that calendar.

This St. Nick is precisely the "American" Santa. In the States he was put in the role of "Jesus-Child". Because as good as St. Nick is, he should be NOT responsible for the giving on Dec. 24/25, it's his "boss" responsibility in person. :)

3) Here comes the evening of Dec. 24. It is a pretty odd timing in both SRB and RU/UA/BY/(GE?)/AR(?). Because they "know" the "correct"(?) calendar, but for "them" the X'mas time is not there yet. For Catholics/Protestants/etc. (and even Orthodox in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania) this IS the X'mas time.

The gift-giver is in most cases "Child Jesus" (Christkindl in German). Sometimes (for Croats Bozic Bata, for Bulgarians similarly) it's not Jesus, but the old "Russian" wizard. French also have "their" wizard (Pere Noel). They look like Santa at first sight, but are not - because Santa is the "Americanized" version of St. Nick - who should be 18 days earlier. In northern Germany it's "Weinachtsmann" (X'mas man). In Hungary - "Jézuska" (small Jesus).

4) The evening of Dec. 31 is the day of "Russian" wizard, even in some K-Albanian places and all over Bosnia. He is the one, who was "banned" in Sarajevo and Croats/Serbs (I am sure, many Bosnian muslims, too) got upset and took the kids in the Serbian part. Ideally, all holidays (we also do Hanukkah and Chinese New Year plus the Thanksgiving) are celebrated and that idiot just spoiled the New Year Eve for the kids.

5) January 6 is the X'mas for Orthodox christians who follow the "old" calendar. This is RS, SRB, RU, UA, BY, probably GE and/or AR (not sure). However, you don't need to be a "christian" - many Russian Jews who live in Brooklyn have two X'mas parties. One is the "New X'mas", the other is the "Old X'mas". Many Serbs have one (on January 6), but some - like Russians living in exile - have two.

6) January 13 is the "Old New Year" (same areas celebrate as "old X'mas"). This is the day when "Grandfather Frost" may appear before retiring for almost a year.

You may notice, some areas like Vojvodina or Kosovo may have 6 (six!) holidays in the row. In Vojvodina many kids regardless of the religious background DO EXPECT to see different versions of the St. Nick/Santa/Deda Mraz all six times. But the greetings are very different on the two X'mas (more later).

Whom you did see in Berlin was St. Nick. They may "push" him back in time "American" way, but it's completely alien for Germans. They have "Christkindl" (in South, literally: "Jesus-Child") or "Weinachtsmann" in North (literally: X'mas man, roughly the "Ded Moroz") for X'mas and St. Nick ("Santa") for Dec. 6.

Like D.M., Weinactsman does not say "ho, ho, ho", he is skinny, has long staff and does all kind of good wizardy (regarding gifts, that is). Probably a proof, German tribes did not live far away from Slavic tribes a while ago.

As promised - the two ways of greetings.

1) You wish "merry X'mas" BEFORE the X'mas for Dec. 24/25/26 ("new X'mas")
2) In the morning of the "old X'mas" you greet the others with the words: "Christos was born!". The answer will be: "Indeed, was born!".
In areas like Vojvodina many people pay attention to both rituals.

I am not sure, but I am assuming that in Vojvodina the entire Dec. 6 - Jan. 13 period is a great challenge for parent's wallet and the mom's cooking/household organization skills.

It is IMO a good idea to put less stress on the wallet and do not have a "gift race". But parties are OK, of course, the more the better, people should celebrate whatever reason they have. Hanukkah and Lunar New Year included.