Greek official sacked for Macedonia views

It reminds me of Greeks friends the Turks how also say their are no Greeks or any other minorities in Turkey only Turks. The blind following the blind watch for the cliff oops. Overwhelming majority of country's recognize Macedonia Republic as it is not some made up nonsense of the Greeks get a life.

"
Furthermore, Skopje argues that there is indeed a Macedonian minority in Greece, which has been deprived of its human rights of cultural and national expression and education in its mother tongue."

Well, duh. Many minorities in Greece are repressed and deprived of their human rights. Macedonians and Albanians alike. It's a shame how this country got into the EU. If Greece were not a EU member and was being considered now, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo would be in much sooner. But, timing is everything. How they got in, I don't know. I'm too young to remember, but for one, I know my people, Albanians, have suffered big time in Greece. They cannot even go to school in their own languages for Christ's sake.

"Athens, on the other hand, says that the only true Macedonians are the Greek Macedonians. "
Ummm..errr...yeah. Everyone is Greek. I've heard Greek arguments that Albanians are indeed Greeks, and to top it all, Scanderbeg is Greek as well. What a messed up idea. Yes, the ancient Macedonia was related to old Greece, but the Macedonians of today, have absolutely nothing to do with the Greeks.
It's interesting how the Greeks think the neighbors, Albanians, Macedonians, Bulgars, Turks are stealing the history from them. As if they don't have a lot of history already that is world class recognizable, but now they wanna claim that the histories, victories, battles, heroes of the neighboring countries are indeed Greek.
The more you have, the greedier you are, I guess.

It is very interesting to see B92 reporting as news the sacking of an official of the Greek opposition party but totally ignoring the sacking of Fyrom's chief negotiator at the UN Dimitrof after falling out with the president of the country.
@ Artan
As i said before Greeks and Albanians have nothing in common apart from borders.
If the Albanian immigrants don't like the Greek educational system they could always return back to Albania.I am sure nobody will stop them.
As far as your history is concerned you can keep it as well because it has no connections with the Greeks.

The name is much less relevant, than what is behind of it. If Gruevski decides to call the country "Most Macedonian of all Macedonias" or what-not, it's up to him. But it must be said clearly:

1) "Macedonian" language is a Bulgarian dialect. Much closer to Bulgarian than Bavarian to Saxonian. If "Bavarian" and "Saxonian" are called "German dialects" than calling "Macedonian" a separate language is baseless.

2) Slavs are relative late-comers on Balkans. "Macedonians" today are a mixture of many people who lived before and after the Slavic invasion, but they are not Antiquity-Macedonians, Thracians, Hellenes, Illyrs, Dacians. They represent a mixture of these with pre-dominant Bulgarian and some Serbian element.

3) Improving minority conditions of ethnic Bulgarians, Albanians and Turks within Greece is a Greek domestic issue and it would be a very good thing. But FYROM official politics is just achieving the opposite effect with anti-scientific, ultra-nationalist, basically, insane claims. The biggest insanity and hypocrisy is not their demands towards Greece, but towards Bulgaria. They accuse Bulgaria to mishandle "Macedonian" minority. Bulgarian answer (i.e. there is no "Macedonian" minority in Bulgaria) is scientifically correct.

To Artan:

"Many minorities in Greece are repressed and deprived of their human rights. Macedonians and Albanians alike"
(Artan, 11 November 2008 19:57)

Despite the repressions, these self-hating Albanians and FYROMians flock to Greece. I guess, because they are better off to be repressed and deprived of their human rights - but have (much) better paying jobs and their children potentially a much better passport for travel. Fully understand. I would do the same.

"Athens, on the other hand, says that the only true Macedonians are the Greek Macedonians. "
(Artan, 11 November 2008 19:57)

AFAIK, Antique-Macedonians were Hellenes, not belonging to Greek city-states, thus "barbarians". A.M. himself was half-Argian (father side) and half-Epirot (mother side). If you say, his mum was "Albanian", this is much harder to contest. Epirots seem to have somewhat to do with Illyrians, but it's all disputed, we don't even know for sure, today Albanians are more Thracians, Dacians or Illyrians. I don't think, it matters that much. They are not Slavic, neither was A.M. And the father of A.M. was a true Greek beyond any doubt.

"I've heard Greek arguments that Albanians are indeed Greeks"
(Artan, 11 November 2008 19:57)

Some Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians were very much "hellenised" and lived in a pretty comfortable life style imported from Athens and later from Rome. For them, coming of Huns, Avars, Germans, Slavs, Magyars was a disaster. Don't blame me, I wasn't there, I can't even ride a horse.

"Scanderbeg is Greek as well."
(Artan, 11 November 2008 19:57)

He is not a perfect Greek because his mother was a Slavic (Serb? Bulgarian?) noblewoman. Not sure, being "Greek" or "Albanian" was what Scanderbeg was most concerned of. He was an "Epirot" ruler and there were enough Albanian and Greek tribes in the area. It is recorded, he spoke/wrote Greek at mother tongue level. I assume, he spoke Latin, Italian and local Albanian and Serb dialects perfectly. Most likely he regarded himself as a potential savior of East Roman empire and his battle flag reflected his goals. It could be, his person was a perfect multi-ethnic mixture of an Albanian, Serb and Greek - but it was Enver Hoxha who "made" him a "perfect" Albanian.

"they wanna claim that the histories, victories, battles, heroes of the neighboring countries are indeed Greek.
The more you have, the greedier you are, I guess."
(Artan, 11 November 2008 19:57)

This world is indeed not fair. To prove, somewhat is not Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Indian, Sumer, Hebrew or Roman is an uphill battle. :)

As far as your history is concerned you can keep it as well because it has no connections with the Greeks.
(Leonidas, 11 November 2008 21:34)

To all fairness, Leonidas, at least in two cases:

#1: mother-side of A.t.G.
#2: father-side of G.K.

they are "Epirots", "Castorians", etc. It was an ethnically pretty mixed area, try to find one there with no Illyrian or Thracian background. So it will be tough.

Case#1: the mother of A.t.G. was (in)famous for her tough character, pretty much in line with the stereotypic image of Illyrians (pirates, mountaineers) of that time.

Now how much have Albanians with antique-time Illyrians to do is an other (unresolved) question. Some do suggest rather Thracian or Dacian kinship because of the vocabulary. We do not know and probably never will know.

Case#2: well-debated enough. G.K. was made a "pure" Albanian by Enver Hoxha, but don't be to fast to judge the other way.

It is somewhat like János Hunyadi being a "pure Hungarian". This is, what everyone (except in Romania and Serbia) did learn. In the reality we just do not know: there seem to be some more-less valid claims in both and his father could be Luxemburgian. The easiest solution is probably to say "American" way: where the allegiance is, there is the nationality in modern sense. This would make Alexander the Great a perfect Hellene, Ingvar Olafson a Russian, Gjergj Kastrioti an East Roman-Albanian and Александар Петровић (Sándor Petöfi) a Hungarian.

G.K. is arguably the most difficult case to resolve, Александар Петровић is the easiest because he was not just arguably the greatest Hungarian poet but also a fierce Hungarian nationalist.

He was sacked for saying the truth. Everybody outside Greece and Cyprus ackowledge the country of Macedonia as… Macedonia, simply.

Its nice to see that there still are some people left that really know to read and actually understand what they read.

@1 Lenard.
"It reminds me of Greeks friends the Turks"
Right..... You DO understand that today's albanians are mostly of turkish descendancy and, as your other neighbours the fyromian slavs, the best friends of turks in the area.

@2 Artan.
Ataman and Leonidas covered this irrelevant post totally. I would only like to add that as for Georgios Kastriotis you have the story all mixed up.
His father was definately Greek, his origins were from Veroia and was appointed head of the Thema of Illyria (or albania in other sources, some also mention Dalmatia). Georgios Kastriotis being Greek, had it as a duty to protect the lands his father was assigned, and that is what he did. He probably have used the local population (the albanian transfers from Kaspian sea) to help him. That is understandable. So you albanians have every right to claim him as your national hero, but you have no right to claim him as albanian. After all he was fighting under the Byzantine red banner with the eagle on it, which you claim also as your flag, which is also understandable :)

@6 Ataman
"the mother of A.t.G. was (in)famous for her tough character, pretty much in line with the stereotypic image of Illyrians (pirates, mountaineers) of that time."
True for the Illyrians, but not for Olympias. She wasnt Illyrian, she was Mollosan, thus Greek.


And to all....
You seem to support this guy that was sacked by the opposition party. Its your right to do so. What you should also know is that he is a leading persona of the gay movement here and has many times tried to draw attention by making controversial announcements, which after a while had withdrawn.

The story is somewhat incorrect: Mr. Valianatos DID say that there is a Macedonian minority in Greece and not the opposite as the story claims. Modern Greeks have no right to claim descendence to ancient Greece as they, like all other nations, represent a conglomerate of Vlachs, Albanians (under the fancy name of Arvanites, Christian Turks, Macedonians, Bulgarians and what not.

"
Furthermore, Skopje argues that there is indeed a Macedonian minority in Greece, which has been deprived of its human rights of cultural and national expression and education in its mother tongue."

Well, duh. Many minorities in Greece are repressed and deprived of their human rights. Macedonians and Albanians alike. It's a shame how this country got into the EU. If Greece were not a EU member and was being considered now, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo would be in much sooner. But, timing is everything. How they got in, I don't know. I'm too young to remember, but for one, I know my people, Albanians, have suffered big time in Greece. They cannot even go to school in their own languages for Christ's sake.

"Athens, on the other hand, says that the only true Macedonians are the Greek Macedonians. "
Ummm..errr...yeah. Everyone is Greek. I've heard Greek arguments that Albanians are indeed Greeks, and to top it all, Scanderbeg is Greek as well. What a messed up idea. Yes, the ancient Macedonia was related to old Greece, but the Macedonians of today, have absolutely nothing to do with the Greeks.
It's interesting how the Greeks think the neighbors, Albanians, Macedonians, Bulgars, Turks are stealing the history from them. As if they don't have a lot of history already that is world class recognizable, but now they wanna claim that the histories, victories, battles, heroes of the neighboring countries are indeed Greek.
The more you have, the greedier you are, I guess.

It reminds me of Greeks friends the Turks how also say their are no Greeks or any other minorities in Turkey only Turks. The blind following the blind watch for the cliff oops. Overwhelming majority of country's recognize Macedonia Republic as it is not some made up nonsense of the Greeks get a life.

He was sacked for saying the truth. Everybody outside Greece and Cyprus ackowledge the country of Macedonia as… Macedonia, simply.

The story is somewhat incorrect: Mr. Valianatos DID say that there is a Macedonian minority in Greece and not the opposite as the story claims. Modern Greeks have no right to claim descendence to ancient Greece as they, like all other nations, represent a conglomerate of Vlachs, Albanians (under the fancy name of Arvanites, Christian Turks, Macedonians, Bulgarians and what not.

The name is much less relevant, than what is behind of it. If Gruevski decides to call the country "Most Macedonian of all Macedonias" or what-not, it's up to him. But it must be said clearly:

1) "Macedonian" language is a Bulgarian dialect. Much closer to Bulgarian than Bavarian to Saxonian. If "Bavarian" and "Saxonian" are called "German dialects" than calling "Macedonian" a separate language is baseless.

2) Slavs are relative late-comers on Balkans. "Macedonians" today are a mixture of many people who lived before and after the Slavic invasion, but they are not Antiquity-Macedonians, Thracians, Hellenes, Illyrs, Dacians. They represent a mixture of these with pre-dominant Bulgarian and some Serbian element.

3) Improving minority conditions of ethnic Bulgarians, Albanians and Turks within Greece is a Greek domestic issue and it would be a very good thing. But FYROM official politics is just achieving the opposite effect with anti-scientific, ultra-nationalist, basically, insane claims. The biggest insanity and hypocrisy is not their demands towards Greece, but towards Bulgaria. They accuse Bulgaria to mishandle "Macedonian" minority. Bulgarian answer (i.e. there is no "Macedonian" minority in Bulgaria) is scientifically correct.

To Artan:

"Many minorities in Greece are repressed and deprived of their human rights. Macedonians and Albanians alike"
(Artan, 11 November 2008 19:57)

Despite the repressions, these self-hating Albanians and FYROMians flock to Greece. I guess, because they are better off to be repressed and deprived of their human rights - but have (much) better paying jobs and their children potentially a much better passport for travel. Fully understand. I would do the same.

"Athens, on the other hand, says that the only true Macedonians are the Greek Macedonians. "
(Artan, 11 November 2008 19:57)

AFAIK, Antique-Macedonians were Hellenes, not belonging to Greek city-states, thus "barbarians". A.M. himself was half-Argian (father side) and half-Epirot (mother side). If you say, his mum was "Albanian", this is much harder to contest. Epirots seem to have somewhat to do with Illyrians, but it's all disputed, we don't even know for sure, today Albanians are more Thracians, Dacians or Illyrians. I don't think, it matters that much. They are not Slavic, neither was A.M. And the father of A.M. was a true Greek beyond any doubt.

"I've heard Greek arguments that Albanians are indeed Greeks"
(Artan, 11 November 2008 19:57)

Some Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians were very much "hellenised" and lived in a pretty comfortable life style imported from Athens and later from Rome. For them, coming of Huns, Avars, Germans, Slavs, Magyars was a disaster. Don't blame me, I wasn't there, I can't even ride a horse.

"Scanderbeg is Greek as well."
(Artan, 11 November 2008 19:57)

He is not a perfect Greek because his mother was a Slavic (Serb? Bulgarian?) noblewoman. Not sure, being "Greek" or "Albanian" was what Scanderbeg was most concerned of. He was an "Epirot" ruler and there were enough Albanian and Greek tribes in the area. It is recorded, he spoke/wrote Greek at mother tongue level. I assume, he spoke Latin, Italian and local Albanian and Serb dialects perfectly. Most likely he regarded himself as a potential savior of East Roman empire and his battle flag reflected his goals. It could be, his person was a perfect multi-ethnic mixture of an Albanian, Serb and Greek - but it was Enver Hoxha who "made" him a "perfect" Albanian.

"they wanna claim that the histories, victories, battles, heroes of the neighboring countries are indeed Greek.
The more you have, the greedier you are, I guess."
(Artan, 11 November 2008 19:57)

This world is indeed not fair. To prove, somewhat is not Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Indian, Sumer, Hebrew or Roman is an uphill battle. :)

It is very interesting to see B92 reporting as news the sacking of an official of the Greek opposition party but totally ignoring the sacking of Fyrom's chief negotiator at the UN Dimitrof after falling out with the president of the country.
@ Artan
As i said before Greeks and Albanians have nothing in common apart from borders.
If the Albanian immigrants don't like the Greek educational system they could always return back to Albania.I am sure nobody will stop them.
As far as your history is concerned you can keep it as well because it has no connections with the Greeks.

Its nice to see that there still are some people left that really know to read and actually understand what they read.

@1 Lenard.
"It reminds me of Greeks friends the Turks"
Right..... You DO understand that today's albanians are mostly of turkish descendancy and, as your other neighbours the fyromian slavs, the best friends of turks in the area.

@2 Artan.
Ataman and Leonidas covered this irrelevant post totally. I would only like to add that as for Georgios Kastriotis you have the story all mixed up.
His father was definately Greek, his origins were from Veroia and was appointed head of the Thema of Illyria (or albania in other sources, some also mention Dalmatia). Georgios Kastriotis being Greek, had it as a duty to protect the lands his father was assigned, and that is what he did. He probably have used the local population (the albanian transfers from Kaspian sea) to help him. That is understandable. So you albanians have every right to claim him as your national hero, but you have no right to claim him as albanian. After all he was fighting under the Byzantine red banner with the eagle on it, which you claim also as your flag, which is also understandable :)

@6 Ataman
"the mother of A.t.G. was (in)famous for her tough character, pretty much in line with the stereotypic image of Illyrians (pirates, mountaineers) of that time."
True for the Illyrians, but not for Olympias. She wasnt Illyrian, she was Mollosan, thus Greek.


And to all....
You seem to support this guy that was sacked by the opposition party. Its your right to do so. What you should also know is that he is a leading persona of the gay movement here and has many times tried to draw attention by making controversial announcements, which after a while had withdrawn.

As far as your history is concerned you can keep it as well because it has no connections with the Greeks.
(Leonidas, 11 November 2008 21:34)

To all fairness, Leonidas, at least in two cases:

#1: mother-side of A.t.G.
#2: father-side of G.K.

they are "Epirots", "Castorians", etc. It was an ethnically pretty mixed area, try to find one there with no Illyrian or Thracian background. So it will be tough.

Case#1: the mother of A.t.G. was (in)famous for her tough character, pretty much in line with the stereotypic image of Illyrians (pirates, mountaineers) of that time.

Now how much have Albanians with antique-time Illyrians to do is an other (unresolved) question. Some do suggest rather Thracian or Dacian kinship because of the vocabulary. We do not know and probably never will know.

Case#2: well-debated enough. G.K. was made a "pure" Albanian by Enver Hoxha, but don't be to fast to judge the other way.

It is somewhat like János Hunyadi being a "pure Hungarian". This is, what everyone (except in Romania and Serbia) did learn. In the reality we just do not know: there seem to be some more-less valid claims in both and his father could be Luxemburgian. The easiest solution is probably to say "American" way: where the allegiance is, there is the nationality in modern sense. This would make Alexander the Great a perfect Hellene, Ingvar Olafson a Russian, Gjergj Kastrioti an East Roman-Albanian and Александар Петровић (Sándor Petöfi) a Hungarian.

G.K. is arguably the most difficult case to resolve, Александар Петровић is the easiest because he was not just arguably the greatest Hungarian poet but also a fierce Hungarian nationalist.