"Do not take it as an attack against somebody who just “expresses your opinion here”."
Normally I do, but somehow I think you need to read roberto's comments again before you say what you did.
"Everybody here condemns such action but this kind of expression couldn’t come from a person who pretends to be neutral and at least with basic of culture. You don’t need to be a barbaric in order to throw a bottle. Moreover as barbarians have been labelled ….u know. "
If Polish people threw bottles at Jews wanting to visit the graves of their ancestors, I would say exactly the same.
"Anybody not guilty is free to go back in Kosovo. "
I don't believe that very many, if any of those people harassed or their buried relatives were guilty of anything what happened in '99.
"Condemn for “beautiful Churches” but what can u say for 120 mosques destroyed????"
I have said many times that I have an aversion to Islam, but indeed, destruction of their places of worship is also completely unacceptable, shameless behavior, since it achieves nothing. Naturally I will feel closer to the Serbs regarding destruction of their churches, but being a Christian Slav like they are, who do you expect I would feel more sympathy towards, regardless of my objectivity?
"Indeed in Kosovo the one who committed crimes where Serbian army together with the Para militia comprised of Russians, Greeks, Macedonians, and Ukrainians and so on"
Religious affiliation was normal when it came to volunteers fighting for the sides in the Balkans. Everyone knows that for the Serbs, there were Russian, Greek, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Macedonian, Romanian, Bulgarian etc. volunteers, for the Croats there were German, Canadian, American, English, Italian, French, Polish, Dutch, Swedish etc. volunteers and for the Bosniaks/Albanians (in Bosnian and Kosovo war respectively) you had Turkish, Arabic, Persian etc. volunteers. They all took part in war crimes at some stage, so to blame one side only really is not fair.
"However the respect has to be paid for everybody risking the life in order to save another. "
That's an understatement! Poland was probably the only country (due to its huge Jewish population) where someone caught hiding jews was shot on the spot, including the entire family. Is it a surprise then that many Poles did not help the jews?
"Sorry but in Poland were the Nazis with polish collaborators who killed the Jews while in Kosovo there were Serbs who killed Albanians and not vice versa."
While indeed many more Albanians were killed in the war, to say that Albanians did not kill any Serbs during the war or after is simply wrong! This is a known fact.
"The polish people wouldn’t be so openhearted if the Jews would have killed them as the Serbians did in Kosovo."
Jewish bolsheviks actively took part in massacres of Poland in Eastern Poland after the Soviet invasion, to claim the jews as being totally innocent is also wrong.
Peter Sudyka: Your inaccurate commends would made everybody sick since you pretend to be somehow neutral in our issues Albanian - Serb but u really represent not only a polish more than Serb but with your logic and comparisons you just misinform the opinion here. Do not take it as an attack against somebody who just “expresses your opinion here”. I have read carefully all your comments and here is my response.
„Don’t these barbarians have any sense of respect or dignity.... I’d imagine these savages would have some empathy and think how they would feel if the grave of their loved one was destroyed, but I guess they lack the most basic human values and norms”
Everybody here condemns such action but this kind of expression couldn’t come from a person who pretends to be neutral and at least with basic of culture. You don’t need to be a barbaric in order to throw a bottle. Moreover as barbarians have been labelled ….u know.
„That is not a reason for Albanians to go and desecrate the graves of the departed or attack their innocent living relatives”
As Albanian I condemn every kind of attack against anyone being Serb or whatever. Let it the justice..
„And get over yourself with the self-pity. Milosevic is dead and the JNA long since disbanded.”
Wrong Peter. JNA was the Yugoslav Army comprised of the members of national Yugoslavia. Indeed in Kosovo the one who committed crimes where Serbian army together with the Para militia comprised of Russians, Greeks, Macedonians, and Ukrainians and so on….Milosevic is dead however the 12000 victims and 1500 not found yet can not be forgotten as easy as it happend with all the nations over the world.
“Also, there were many Serbs expelled and killed after the war, not to mention many ancient, beautiful Orthodox churches (which I personally view as the most impressive out of all Christian churches) leveled with the ground.”
Anybody not guilty is free to go back in Kosovo. Although the Serbian and roma collaborators know very well why they can’t go back there. It is the price for their crimes since the justice in Kosovo is not able to bring them in front of it. Condemn for “beautiful Churches” but what can u say for 120 mosques destroyed???? Why? I don’t believe in Islam but what the hell had to do the mosques with the war….since for the orthodox priest blessing the Scorpions we have an answer…
“And don't give me the Illyrian nonsense, if that is the Albanian argument, then no white or black American should own land, only the native Indians.”
If it were only for our Illyrian ancestry we would pretend the land up to Slovenia. Have u heard any Albanian to pretend something like that???? The origin is different else from land possession and everybody knows it.
“I am aware of the negative behaviour of some Poles towards the Jews and their property during and after the war, however, I am also aware of the fact that Poland had far more "righteous among the nations" than anyone else”.
As u have mentioned in the other comments u are also aware that Poland had far more Jews in Europe than another country which correspond to the far more righteous among the nations. However the respect has to be paid for everybody risking the life in order to save another.
“It's just that the Jews are starting to thrive again in Poland, while in Kosovo, evidently the opposite is true when it comes to the Serbs”
What a nonsense comment. Sorry but in Poland were the Nazis with polish collaborators who killed the Jews while in Kosovo there were Serbs who killed Albanians and not vice versa. The polish people wouldn’t be so openhearted if the Jews would have killed them as the Serbians did in Kosovo.
"as for peter from Poland, if that was some attempt of an apology, i do not accept it."
Apology? What for? Did I do something wrong perhaps?
"poland has never apologized for the genocide upon its soil, altho it is well known that many poles actively collaborated to make it work."
It was the Nazis who carried out genocide in Poland. Collaborators were to be found in every country, from Hungary to the Netherlands, from the Soviet Union to France etc. Poland is not alone here.
"poland was heavily anti-semitic before, during AND after the war."
That's funny, I thought Poland had the most Jews in Europe before the war and that Poland was a haven for Jews escaping persecution in Western Europe.
Thanks for the history lesson.
"there were even pogroms against individual jews after the war had ended, if you can imagine."
All this while the Poles in Poland were out sunbathing, relaxing and having a picnic with our Soviet brothers ;-).
"but after yesterday, with this "i am so shocked" and the great christian slavic brotherhood routine, i could take no more. "
You're right, how could I be shocked at putting myself in the position of those Serbs who cannot visit the graves of their relatives without being harassed and attacked or standing over a smashed grave? Those Serbs deserve no pity or empathy from their fellow Slavic Christians, don't they?
"my family lost some 100 people to those very nice euro christians, and to this day we only know that they were murdered, have no idea about the specifics or where their remains went. no apologies, reparations, no nothing."
I doubt there are few Europeans from Poland, the former Yugoslavia, the former Soviet Union, Germany, Hungary, the former Czechoslovakia, Romania etc. who did not lose family in the war. One thing I can be pretty sure of is that those 100 family members of yours were more than likely killed by Nazis than by the Poles.
"it doesn't mean that there is "collective guilt" for every pole alive today -- esp for those born after the war! no one said that"
You could have fooled me. If someone here cannot see that hateful venom that you spewed at my people and my country in your last two posts, they are either blind or as anti-Polish as you are being here today.
"but if you are speaking in these historical terms, you need to take some honest responsibility for your country's past. for my people's blood, not to mention the destruction and desecration of our graveyards. "
I do, as I said earlier. Some Poles are definitely not innocent vz. the jews. It's just that the Jews are starting to thrive again in Poland, while in Kosovo, evidently the opposite is true when it comes to the Serbs.
At least you have people like Poland's ex-president apologizing for the Jedwabne and Kielce pogroms. When will Israel apologize for the atrocities of Salomon Morel, who Israel refused to extradite to stand trial for his crimes against humanity?
i wrote a response but my student (accidentally) erased it. so, attempt #2:
as for being labeled a "racist" by the serb nationalists, for me, that is like a badge of honor.
as for peter from Poland, if that was some attempt of an apology, i do not accept it. poland has never apologized for the genocide upon its soil, altho it is well known that many poles actively collaborated to make it work. i know all about (and have taught about) the righteous gentiles (as we jews have labeled them), and i respect them enormously as individuals. in any country but especially in countries like poland. but they were an absolute drop in the bucket, and in no way represented the mainstream of polish society, church, etc. that is simply untrue.
poland was heavily anti-semitic before, during AND after the war. there were even pogroms against individual jews after the war had ended, if you can imagine. there are many unfortunate parallels to the 40s and the 90s in europe, for those who will open their eyes and see.
peter from Poland -- i did not bring this up before despite your many biased and arrogant posts. but after yesterday, with this "i am so shocked" and the great christian slavic brotherhood routine, i could take no more.
my family lost some 100 people to those very nice euro christians, and to this day we only know that they were murdered, have no idea about the specifics or where their remains went. no apologies, reparations, no nothing. it doesn't mean that there is "collective guilt" for every pole alive today -- esp for those born after the war! no one said that. but if you are speaking in these historical terms, you need to take some honest responsibility for your country's past. for my people's blood, not to mention the destruction and desecration of our graveyards.
at least to think about it, if not try to act.
as for my other critics, i am well aware of the jagged history of the US (and Israel for that matter) and have often been openly critical of govt's and policies, taken to the streets, written, organized, put in my time. don't lecture me, and don't even TRY to intimidate or bully me.
Roberto, those who throw stones..well you know that rest..
As a jew, you should know that, and as an american..well the examples are endless.
For the albanian posters who justify the desacration of mass graves, you are damaging the repuatation of a very hard working and good-hearted albanian peoples.
We cannot run away from this. It is absolutely unaceptable and barabrian- as uch as saying: 'albanian culutre' and getting 40 recommendations.
It is commonly known that the "bravest" and hard core "patriots" fluorish after the war- hence I have not excuse for the people that have done that- and I stringly believe that they could be 2-3 of them.
Fromn there demonising an entear nation is just Bolshevik put it in easiest form.
And last but not least: IT IS MUCH MUCH MORE DISGUSTING to ingore and post and post not even one posting or prettened that the story is 'fabricated' when news about exumination of dead K-Albanian in Serbia or founding a mass graves of K-Albanians north of Belgrade- you will agree??? you can check here in b92 just a week ago you can count the comments of Serbs on them.
roberto says...BUT, peter from ploand, you really need to spare me some of that self-righteous bleating. do you have any idea, any CLUE what your nice people did..."
Unless you can place Peter as an active participant during the war your negative rantings, roberto, are inappropriate.
Collective guilt is a dangerous concept that should not be tolerated especially coming from an arrogant American who sits in judgement of others.
I am aware of the negative behavior of some Poles towards the jews and their property during and after the war, however, I am also aware of the fact that Poland had far more "righteous among the nations" than anyone else.
Roberto: your routine Serb-baiting is tiresome enough, but the comment above is odious, racist and absolutely unjustifiable. I sincerely hope the moderators remove it.
pavaresi for what should the serbs apologize, for being clansed from their own land for their churches being destroyed or should thay just say we are sorry for our organs being harversted.oh and those 2 thousand albanian that are missing maybe thay should be looking in albania maybe thay are beried next to the 300 serbs with their organs missing as well.
To those who glorify throwing bottles at people visiting graves and have the lack of brains to say it is because no one has apologized well that makes the bottle thrower and provactors just as guilty. Maybe one day when Serbia joins the EU and then NATO. They will be still throwing bottles still stuck in a rut. There is a time to let the past stay in the past instead of pavarsie come with some excuse. Face reality and move with life, get a job raise your children to respect themselves as well as others and maybe Kosovo will move forward.
I also condemn this action -- there can be no excuses or justification. there is something very holy about the final resting places and whatever else is going on we have to keep this place special and sacred. no excuses!
i will spare my other comments for now, i just can't do that usual we did/you did. sometimes it just is not appropriate.
BUT, peter from ploand, you really need to spare me some of that self-righteous bleating. do you have any idea, any CLUE what your nice people did, the vast majority, to my people (jews), not to mention our graveyards? during and after the War? any clue at all?? and you just cannot imagine such a thing! maybe one day you ought to pick up a history book, or speak to someone about the truth of your country's past.
i know that by now conditions in poland are better, much better (i hope), but just don't pretend this kind of righteous indignation given the genocide that occurred and was facilitated by so many poles...
This is terrible and I condemn it and I feel that some Albanians feel the same way even if (at time of writing) no Albanian posters have.
It is very sad indeed that victims cannot seem to be able to empathise with other victims. Instead we seem to have some kind of 'compeitition' going on - continuously arguing that other preceeding events were worse.
That kind of position does not help anybody. Each event should be condemned above all. I would not shirk from condemning similar actions from Serbs.
This will make great news in Serbia to galvanize an already disgusted population. Every culture based on crime and injustice will fail. This one sooner than later.
That is not a reason for Albanians to go and desecrate the graves of the departed or attack their innocent living relatives. If those Albanians want justice for what happened in 1999, they should go after the authorities responsible, as well as those soldiers of the JNA who carried out the atrocities in the war, not after innocent people who have done nothing wrong to anybody, not to mention to destroy the graves of their relatives!
And get over yourself with the self-pity. Milosevic is dead and the JNA long since disbanded. Also, there were many Serbs expelled and killed after the war, not to mention many ancient, beautiful Orthodox churches (which I personally view as the most impressive out of all Christian churches) leveled with the ground. What makes those Albanians any better than the JNA of 1999? Nothing! Have the former Kosovo authorities apologized for the innocent Serbs driven out of Kosovo and their property destroyed/stolen? And don't give me the Illyrian nonsense, if that is the Albanian argument, then no white or black American should own land, only the native Indians.
To conclude, regardless of what the Yugoslav authorities and armies were responsible for in 1999, there is no excuse for this revolting behavior 20 years down the line, especially with innocent Serbs who did nothing wrong. How do you expect them to want to integrate into Kosovo now?
There is probably no Kosovo independence that would be acceptable to the Serbs, but what I don't understand is why this particular independence is acceptable to EU powers.
This is an incompetent government that can not rein in extremist elements that never fail to make Kosovo independence look bad.
State sanctioned bulldozer parties and newly built schools and broken down churches and graveyard has been the only noticeable achievements of Pristina
One would think that after receiving billions of dollars, expert western advice, the promise of independence and the prospect of EU membership, the authorities in pristina would not be the " narco-entrepreneurs" of the 1990s.
For decades people like Rugova told Belgrade that "If you want to be in control of something, you have to learn how to take care of it first" -unfortunately NO ONE is giving this advice to Pristina.
that's right, keep throwing them bottles, and be proud. every society should have something to be proud of. yours sadly chose to destroy tombstones, burning mediaeval churches and kidnapping civilians to cut out their livers and hearts. so be it. but do you know what you actually hit every time you throw a bottle at a grieving serb visiting their mother's, father's, child's desecrated grave? you hit rock bottom.
"These among others did sacrifice themselves for the freedom of Albania"
This Bishop is shameless or has no clue about history. They died trying to take more Albanian lands, Shkodra down to the port of Durres.
Serbs tried to 'liberate' Albania of its inhabitants, so they could take half of Nothern Albania but that's about it. Taking 'only' Kosova wasn't enough for Serbs. The Balkan Wars were about land, that's why Serbia joined the Turks against the Bulgars on the Second Balkan War.
This is terrible but blaming America is misleading and ignorant.
America did not create this hatred Ratko. It was not even in existence at the time the troubles over that region first appeared.
The blame is in the people throwing the bottles and desecrating the graves. They made that choice on their own. They are the ones guilty for doing it, not some country or president.
You really have to wonder at how low some people will go. I seem to remember a few days ago when B92 reported on a group of Albanians attempting to cross the Ibar were turned back by the Serbs and the predictable names here lambasted Serbian contempt for democracy and culture. We also hear about how Serbs need to just "accept it" and living in a supposedly thriving multi-ethnic "Kosova".
Sadly, incidents like grave descecration and harassment of mourners, while hardly indicative of the entire Albanian race, nevertheless justify reasons for no one wanting to live in this self-proclaimed state. For shame.
Don't these barbarians have any sense of respect or dignity? These are the final resting places of people who have passed away, where they are at peace, most of whom were probably decent people who did nothing wrong to anybody. I'd imagine these savages would have some empathy and think how they would feel if the grave of their loved one was destroyed, but I guess they lack the most basic human values and norms.
What's worse is that their living relatives cannot go and pay their respects in peace! On such a day as this???
Yesterday I visited the graves of my grandparents (we too celebrate this day, we call it Œwiêto Zmar³ych in Poland). I cannot imagine the idea of my family and myself not being able to do so in peace with someone verbally assaulting us or throwing bottles at us, not to mention seeing the graves of my grandparents destroyed. I guess some people just cannot put themselves in that situation and prefer to act like uncivilized beasts.
Sorry, but this made me truly sick in my stomach!!!
"sovereign Albanian terrirotry?" It's ironic any Albanian backer wants to throw out sovereignity at this point. That was a good laugh, almost as funny as your history lesson.
The real point here is that crimes are being committed against Serbs, and instead of adding something to the discussion to put a stop to it, you try to justify it. It shows what you are all about.
What in the h@ll are you talking about village-bey? Your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the article. As always, the ethnic Albanians and their allies (I know, I know, my country is just as responsible and believe me, I wish it wasn't with every inch of my soul) throw reality to the wind, will not condemn such hatred and try to divert attention to something that is totally irrelevent. Please try to stay on subject, go ahead make your excuses for this type of action so I can continue to show all Americans I come in touch with what our govt has done on behalf of a pseudo-state that is run by criminals, traffickers and hate mongers.
Talk about a peace loving, multicultural, and respectful "indpendent kosovo"???
I wonder what they would say if serbs did the same (yet as far as i know they never have). But hey, what else do you expect from these albanians? don't let the dead interupt their dream of a completely albanian kosovo.
Albanian culture at its finest!
(CG, 2 November 2008 11:11)
On the same day Bishop Artemije, the vocal advocate of the armed confrontation against Kosova, visited Shkodra the ancient capital of Albania where he claimed that and I quote: “We came here to visit the graveyards of the Serbian soldiers died fighting ottoman invaders in the Balkan War. These among others did sacrifice themselves for the freedom of Albania. Here in Bardhaj more than 10,000 Serbian soldiers died. I wanted to add something else; they fell when Albania declared her independence, in that very crucial moment for this country’s history”
Giving this preacher of hate the possibility to speak such nonsense, inside Albanian sovereign territory, I do agree is Albanian culture at its finest.
By the way those Serbian soldiers probably died fighting the same Albanians that the bishop proclaims to have liberated.
Don't these barbarians have any sense of respect or dignity? These are the final resting places of people who have passed away, where they are at peace, most of whom were probably decent people who did nothing wrong to anybody. I'd imagine these savages would have some empathy and think how they would feel if the grave of their loved one was destroyed, but I guess they lack the most basic human values and norms.
What's worse is that their living relatives cannot go and pay their respects in peace! On such a day as this???
Yesterday I visited the graves of my grandparents (we too celebrate this day, we call it Œwiêto Zmar³ych in Poland). I cannot imagine the idea of my family and myself not being able to do so in peace with someone verbally assaulting us or throwing bottles at us, not to mention seeing the graves of my grandparents destroyed. I guess some people just cannot put themselves in that situation and prefer to act like uncivilized beasts.
Sorry, but this made me truly sick in my stomach!!!
Talk about a peace loving, multicultural, and respectful "indpendent kosovo"???
I wonder what they would say if serbs did the same (yet as far as i know they never have). But hey, what else do you expect from these albanians? don't let the dead interupt their dream of a completely albanian kosovo.
That is not a reason for Albanians to go and desecrate the graves of the departed or attack their innocent living relatives. If those Albanians want justice for what happened in 1999, they should go after the authorities responsible, as well as those soldiers of the JNA who carried out the atrocities in the war, not after innocent people who have done nothing wrong to anybody, not to mention to destroy the graves of their relatives!
And get over yourself with the self-pity. Milosevic is dead and the JNA long since disbanded. Also, there were many Serbs expelled and killed after the war, not to mention many ancient, beautiful Orthodox churches (which I personally view as the most impressive out of all Christian churches) leveled with the ground. What makes those Albanians any better than the JNA of 1999? Nothing! Have the former Kosovo authorities apologized for the innocent Serbs driven out of Kosovo and their property destroyed/stolen? And don't give me the Illyrian nonsense, if that is the Albanian argument, then no white or black American should own land, only the native Indians.
To conclude, regardless of what the Yugoslav authorities and armies were responsible for in 1999, there is no excuse for this revolting behavior 20 years down the line, especially with innocent Serbs who did nothing wrong. How do you expect them to want to integrate into Kosovo now?
What in the h@ll are you talking about village-bey? Your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the article. As always, the ethnic Albanians and their allies (I know, I know, my country is just as responsible and believe me, I wish it wasn't with every inch of my soul) throw reality to the wind, will not condemn such hatred and try to divert attention to something that is totally irrelevent. Please try to stay on subject, go ahead make your excuses for this type of action so I can continue to show all Americans I come in touch with what our govt has done on behalf of a pseudo-state that is run by criminals, traffickers and hate mongers.
You really have to wonder at how low some people will go. I seem to remember a few days ago when B92 reported on a group of Albanians attempting to cross the Ibar were turned back by the Serbs and the predictable names here lambasted Serbian contempt for democracy and culture. We also hear about how Serbs need to just "accept it" and living in a supposedly thriving multi-ethnic "Kosova".
Sadly, incidents like grave descecration and harassment of mourners, while hardly indicative of the entire Albanian race, nevertheless justify reasons for no one wanting to live in this self-proclaimed state. For shame.
"sovereign Albanian terrirotry?" It's ironic any Albanian backer wants to throw out sovereignity at this point. That was a good laugh, almost as funny as your history lesson.
The real point here is that crimes are being committed against Serbs, and instead of adding something to the discussion to put a stop to it, you try to justify it. It shows what you are all about.
that's right, keep throwing them bottles, and be proud. every society should have something to be proud of. yours sadly chose to destroy tombstones, burning mediaeval churches and kidnapping civilians to cut out their livers and hearts. so be it. but do you know what you actually hit every time you throw a bottle at a grieving serb visiting their mother's, father's, child's desecrated grave? you hit rock bottom.
This is terrible and I condemn it and I feel that some Albanians feel the same way even if (at time of writing) no Albanian posters have.
It is very sad indeed that victims cannot seem to be able to empathise with other victims. Instead we seem to have some kind of 'compeitition' going on - continuously arguing that other preceeding events were worse.
That kind of position does not help anybody. Each event should be condemned above all. I would not shirk from condemning similar actions from Serbs.
This will make great news in Serbia to galvanize an already disgusted population. Every culture based on crime and injustice will fail. This one sooner than later.
Roberto: your routine Serb-baiting is tiresome enough, but the comment above is odious, racist and absolutely unjustifiable. I sincerely hope the moderators remove it.
Albanian culture at its finest!
(CG, 2 November 2008 11:11)
On the same day Bishop Artemije, the vocal advocate of the armed confrontation against Kosova, visited Shkodra the ancient capital of Albania where he claimed that and I quote: “We came here to visit the graveyards of the Serbian soldiers died fighting ottoman invaders in the Balkan War. These among others did sacrifice themselves for the freedom of Albania. Here in Bardhaj more than 10,000 Serbian soldiers died. I wanted to add something else; they fell when Albania declared her independence, in that very crucial moment for this country’s history”
Giving this preacher of hate the possibility to speak such nonsense, inside Albanian sovereign territory, I do agree is Albanian culture at its finest.
By the way those Serbian soldiers probably died fighting the same Albanians that the bishop proclaims to have liberated.
roberto says...BUT, peter from ploand, you really need to spare me some of that self-righteous bleating. do you have any idea, any CLUE what your nice people did..."
Unless you can place Peter as an active participant during the war your negative rantings, roberto, are inappropriate.
Collective guilt is a dangerous concept that should not be tolerated especially coming from an arrogant American who sits in judgement of others.
There is probably no Kosovo independence that would be acceptable to the Serbs, but what I don't understand is why this particular independence is acceptable to EU powers.
This is an incompetent government that can not rein in extremist elements that never fail to make Kosovo independence look bad.
State sanctioned bulldozer parties and newly built schools and broken down churches and graveyard has been the only noticeable achievements of Pristina
One would think that after receiving billions of dollars, expert western advice, the promise of independence and the prospect of EU membership, the authorities in pristina would not be the " narco-entrepreneurs" of the 1990s.
For decades people like Rugova told Belgrade that "If you want to be in control of something, you have to learn how to take care of it first" -unfortunately NO ONE is giving this advice to Pristina.
pavaresi for what should the serbs apologize, for being clansed from their own land for their churches being destroyed or should thay just say we are sorry for our organs being harversted.oh and those 2 thousand albanian that are missing maybe thay should be looking in albania maybe thay are beried next to the 300 serbs with their organs missing as well.
To those who glorify throwing bottles at people visiting graves and have the lack of brains to say it is because no one has apologized well that makes the bottle thrower and provactors just as guilty. Maybe one day when Serbia joins the EU and then NATO. They will be still throwing bottles still stuck in a rut. There is a time to let the past stay in the past instead of pavarsie come with some excuse. Face reality and move with life, get a job raise your children to respect themselves as well as others and maybe Kosovo will move forward.
"as for peter from Poland, if that was some attempt of an apology, i do not accept it."
Apology? What for? Did I do something wrong perhaps?
"poland has never apologized for the genocide upon its soil, altho it is well known that many poles actively collaborated to make it work."
It was the Nazis who carried out genocide in Poland. Collaborators were to be found in every country, from Hungary to the Netherlands, from the Soviet Union to France etc. Poland is not alone here.
"poland was heavily anti-semitic before, during AND after the war."
That's funny, I thought Poland had the most Jews in Europe before the war and that Poland was a haven for Jews escaping persecution in Western Europe.
Thanks for the history lesson.
"there were even pogroms against individual jews after the war had ended, if you can imagine."
All this while the Poles in Poland were out sunbathing, relaxing and having a picnic with our Soviet brothers ;-).
"but after yesterday, with this "i am so shocked" and the great christian slavic brotherhood routine, i could take no more. "
You're right, how could I be shocked at putting myself in the position of those Serbs who cannot visit the graves of their relatives without being harassed and attacked or standing over a smashed grave? Those Serbs deserve no pity or empathy from their fellow Slavic Christians, don't they?
"my family lost some 100 people to those very nice euro christians, and to this day we only know that they were murdered, have no idea about the specifics or where their remains went. no apologies, reparations, no nothing."
I doubt there are few Europeans from Poland, the former Yugoslavia, the former Soviet Union, Germany, Hungary, the former Czechoslovakia, Romania etc. who did not lose family in the war. One thing I can be pretty sure of is that those 100 family members of yours were more than likely killed by Nazis than by the Poles.
"it doesn't mean that there is "collective guilt" for every pole alive today -- esp for those born after the war! no one said that"
You could have fooled me. If someone here cannot see that hateful venom that you spewed at my people and my country in your last two posts, they are either blind or as anti-Polish as you are being here today.
"but if you are speaking in these historical terms, you need to take some honest responsibility for your country's past. for my people's blood, not to mention the destruction and desecration of our graveyards. "
I do, as I said earlier. Some Poles are definitely not innocent vz. the jews. It's just that the Jews are starting to thrive again in Poland, while in Kosovo, evidently the opposite is true when it comes to the Serbs.
At least you have people like Poland's ex-president apologizing for the Jedwabne and Kielce pogroms. When will Israel apologize for the atrocities of Salomon Morel, who Israel refused to extradite to stand trial for his crimes against humanity?
This is terrible but blaming America is misleading and ignorant.
America did not create this hatred Ratko. It was not even in existence at the time the troubles over that region first appeared.
The blame is in the people throwing the bottles and desecrating the graves. They made that choice on their own. They are the ones guilty for doing it, not some country or president.
I am aware of the negative behavior of some Poles towards the jews and their property during and after the war, however, I am also aware of the fact that Poland had far more "righteous among the nations" than anyone else.
"These among others did sacrifice themselves for the freedom of Albania"
This Bishop is shameless or has no clue about history. They died trying to take more Albanian lands, Shkodra down to the port of Durres.
Serbs tried to 'liberate' Albania of its inhabitants, so they could take half of Nothern Albania but that's about it. Taking 'only' Kosova wasn't enough for Serbs. The Balkan Wars were about land, that's why Serbia joined the Turks against the Bulgars on the Second Balkan War.
We cannot run away from this. It is absolutely unaceptable and barabrian- as uch as saying: 'albanian culutre' and getting 40 recommendations.
It is commonly known that the "bravest" and hard core "patriots" fluorish after the war- hence I have not excuse for the people that have done that- and I stringly believe that they could be 2-3 of them.
Fromn there demonising an entear nation is just Bolshevik put it in easiest form.
And last but not least: IT IS MUCH MUCH MORE DISGUSTING to ingore and post and post not even one posting or prettened that the story is 'fabricated' when news about exumination of dead K-Albanian in Serbia or founding a mass graves of K-Albanians north of Belgrade- you will agree??? you can check here in b92 just a week ago you can count the comments of Serbs on them.
Roberto, those who throw stones..well you know that rest..
As a jew, you should know that, and as an american..well the examples are endless.
For the albanian posters who justify the desacration of mass graves, you are damaging the repuatation of a very hard working and good-hearted albanian peoples.
i wrote a response but my student (accidentally) erased it. so, attempt #2:
as for being labeled a "racist" by the serb nationalists, for me, that is like a badge of honor.
as for peter from Poland, if that was some attempt of an apology, i do not accept it. poland has never apologized for the genocide upon its soil, altho it is well known that many poles actively collaborated to make it work. i know all about (and have taught about) the righteous gentiles (as we jews have labeled them), and i respect them enormously as individuals. in any country but especially in countries like poland. but they were an absolute drop in the bucket, and in no way represented the mainstream of polish society, church, etc. that is simply untrue.
poland was heavily anti-semitic before, during AND after the war. there were even pogroms against individual jews after the war had ended, if you can imagine. there are many unfortunate parallels to the 40s and the 90s in europe, for those who will open their eyes and see.
peter from Poland -- i did not bring this up before despite your many biased and arrogant posts. but after yesterday, with this "i am so shocked" and the great christian slavic brotherhood routine, i could take no more.
my family lost some 100 people to those very nice euro christians, and to this day we only know that they were murdered, have no idea about the specifics or where their remains went. no apologies, reparations, no nothing. it doesn't mean that there is "collective guilt" for every pole alive today -- esp for those born after the war! no one said that. but if you are speaking in these historical terms, you need to take some honest responsibility for your country's past. for my people's blood, not to mention the destruction and desecration of our graveyards.
at least to think about it, if not try to act.
as for my other critics, i am well aware of the jagged history of the US (and Israel for that matter) and have often been openly critical of govt's and policies, taken to the streets, written, organized, put in my time. don't lecture me, and don't even TRY to intimidate or bully me.
I also condemn this action -- there can be no excuses or justification. there is something very holy about the final resting places and whatever else is going on we have to keep this place special and sacred. no excuses!
i will spare my other comments for now, i just can't do that usual we did/you did. sometimes it just is not appropriate.
BUT, peter from ploand, you really need to spare me some of that self-righteous bleating. do you have any idea, any CLUE what your nice people did, the vast majority, to my people (jews), not to mention our graveyards? during and after the War? any clue at all?? and you just cannot imagine such a thing! maybe one day you ought to pick up a history book, or speak to someone about the truth of your country's past.
i know that by now conditions in poland are better, much better (i hope), but just don't pretend this kind of righteous indignation given the genocide that occurred and was facilitated by so many poles...
Peter Sudyka: Your inaccurate commends would made everybody sick since you pretend to be somehow neutral in our issues Albanian - Serb but u really represent not only a polish more than Serb but with your logic and comparisons you just misinform the opinion here. Do not take it as an attack against somebody who just “expresses your opinion here”. I have read carefully all your comments and here is my response.
„Don’t these barbarians have any sense of respect or dignity.... I’d imagine these savages would have some empathy and think how they would feel if the grave of their loved one was destroyed, but I guess they lack the most basic human values and norms”
Everybody here condemns such action but this kind of expression couldn’t come from a person who pretends to be neutral and at least with basic of culture. You don’t need to be a barbaric in order to throw a bottle. Moreover as barbarians have been labelled ….u know.
„That is not a reason for Albanians to go and desecrate the graves of the departed or attack their innocent living relatives”
As Albanian I condemn every kind of attack against anyone being Serb or whatever. Let it the justice..
„And get over yourself with the self-pity. Milosevic is dead and the JNA long since disbanded.”
Wrong Peter. JNA was the Yugoslav Army comprised of the members of national Yugoslavia. Indeed in Kosovo the one who committed crimes where Serbian army together with the Para militia comprised of Russians, Greeks, Macedonians, and Ukrainians and so on….Milosevic is dead however the 12000 victims and 1500 not found yet can not be forgotten as easy as it happend with all the nations over the world.
“Also, there were many Serbs expelled and killed after the war, not to mention many ancient, beautiful Orthodox churches (which I personally view as the most impressive out of all Christian churches) leveled with the ground.”
Anybody not guilty is free to go back in Kosovo. Although the Serbian and roma collaborators know very well why they can’t go back there. It is the price for their crimes since the justice in Kosovo is not able to bring them in front of it. Condemn for “beautiful Churches” but what can u say for 120 mosques destroyed???? Why? I don’t believe in Islam but what the hell had to do the mosques with the war….since for the orthodox priest blessing the Scorpions we have an answer…
“And don't give me the Illyrian nonsense, if that is the Albanian argument, then no white or black American should own land, only the native Indians.”
If it were only for our Illyrian ancestry we would pretend the land up to Slovenia. Have u heard any Albanian to pretend something like that???? The origin is different else from land possession and everybody knows it.
“I am aware of the negative behaviour of some Poles towards the Jews and their property during and after the war, however, I am also aware of the fact that Poland had far more "righteous among the nations" than anyone else”.
As u have mentioned in the other comments u are also aware that Poland had far more Jews in Europe than another country which correspond to the far more righteous among the nations. However the respect has to be paid for everybody risking the life in order to save another.
“It's just that the Jews are starting to thrive again in Poland, while in Kosovo, evidently the opposite is true when it comes to the Serbs”
What a nonsense comment. Sorry but in Poland were the Nazis with polish collaborators who killed the Jews while in Kosovo there were Serbs who killed Albanians and not vice versa. The polish people wouldn’t be so openhearted if the Jews would have killed them as the Serbians did in Kosovo.
"Do not take it as an attack against somebody who just “expresses your opinion here”."
Normally I do, but somehow I think you need to read roberto's comments again before you say what you did.
"Everybody here condemns such action but this kind of expression couldn’t come from a person who pretends to be neutral and at least with basic of culture. You don’t need to be a barbaric in order to throw a bottle. Moreover as barbarians have been labelled ….u know. "
If Polish people threw bottles at Jews wanting to visit the graves of their ancestors, I would say exactly the same.
"Anybody not guilty is free to go back in Kosovo. "
I don't believe that very many, if any of those people harassed or their buried relatives were guilty of anything what happened in '99.
"Condemn for “beautiful Churches” but what can u say for 120 mosques destroyed????"
I have said many times that I have an aversion to Islam, but indeed, destruction of their places of worship is also completely unacceptable, shameless behavior, since it achieves nothing. Naturally I will feel closer to the Serbs regarding destruction of their churches, but being a Christian Slav like they are, who do you expect I would feel more sympathy towards, regardless of my objectivity?
"Indeed in Kosovo the one who committed crimes where Serbian army together with the Para militia comprised of Russians, Greeks, Macedonians, and Ukrainians and so on"
Religious affiliation was normal when it came to volunteers fighting for the sides in the Balkans. Everyone knows that for the Serbs, there were Russian, Greek, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Macedonian, Romanian, Bulgarian etc. volunteers, for the Croats there were German, Canadian, American, English, Italian, French, Polish, Dutch, Swedish etc. volunteers and for the Bosniaks/Albanians (in Bosnian and Kosovo war respectively) you had Turkish, Arabic, Persian etc. volunteers. They all took part in war crimes at some stage, so to blame one side only really is not fair.
"However the respect has to be paid for everybody risking the life in order to save another. "
That's an understatement! Poland was probably the only country (due to its huge Jewish population) where someone caught hiding jews was shot on the spot, including the entire family. Is it a surprise then that many Poles did not help the jews?
"Sorry but in Poland were the Nazis with polish collaborators who killed the Jews while in Kosovo there were Serbs who killed Albanians and not vice versa."
While indeed many more Albanians were killed in the war, to say that Albanians did not kill any Serbs during the war or after is simply wrong! This is a known fact.
"The polish people wouldn’t be so openhearted if the Jews would have killed them as the Serbians did in Kosovo."
Jewish bolsheviks actively took part in massacres of Poland in Eastern Poland after the Soviet invasion, to claim the jews as being totally innocent is also wrong.
Albanian culture at its finest!
(CG, 2 November 2008 11:11)
On the same day Bishop Artemije, the vocal advocate of the armed confrontation against Kosova, visited Shkodra the ancient capital of Albania where he claimed that and I quote: “We came here to visit the graveyards of the Serbian soldiers died fighting ottoman invaders in the Balkan War. These among others did sacrifice themselves for the freedom of Albania. Here in Bardhaj more than 10,000 Serbian soldiers died. I wanted to add something else; they fell when Albania declared her independence, in that very crucial moment for this country’s history”
Giving this preacher of hate the possibility to speak such nonsense, inside Albanian sovereign territory, I do agree is Albanian culture at its finest.
By the way those Serbian soldiers probably died fighting the same Albanians that the bishop proclaims to have liberated.
"These among others did sacrifice themselves for the freedom of Albania"
This Bishop is shameless or has no clue about history. They died trying to take more Albanian lands, Shkodra down to the port of Durres.
Serbs tried to 'liberate' Albania of its inhabitants, so they could take half of Nothern Albania but that's about it. Taking 'only' Kosova wasn't enough for Serbs. The Balkan Wars were about land, that's why Serbia joined the Turks against the Bulgars on the Second Balkan War.
I also condemn this action -- there can be no excuses or justification. there is something very holy about the final resting places and whatever else is going on we have to keep this place special and sacred. no excuses!
i will spare my other comments for now, i just can't do that usual we did/you did. sometimes it just is not appropriate.
BUT, peter from ploand, you really need to spare me some of that self-righteous bleating. do you have any idea, any CLUE what your nice people did, the vast majority, to my people (jews), not to mention our graveyards? during and after the War? any clue at all?? and you just cannot imagine such a thing! maybe one day you ought to pick up a history book, or speak to someone about the truth of your country's past.
i know that by now conditions in poland are better, much better (i hope), but just don't pretend this kind of righteous indignation given the genocide that occurred and was facilitated by so many poles...
This is terrible but blaming America is misleading and ignorant.
America did not create this hatred Ratko. It was not even in existence at the time the troubles over that region first appeared.
The blame is in the people throwing the bottles and desecrating the graves. They made that choice on their own. They are the ones guilty for doing it, not some country or president.
We cannot run away from this. It is absolutely unaceptable and barabrian- as uch as saying: 'albanian culutre' and getting 40 recommendations.
It is commonly known that the "bravest" and hard core "patriots" fluorish after the war- hence I have not excuse for the people that have done that- and I stringly believe that they could be 2-3 of them.
Fromn there demonising an entear nation is just Bolshevik put it in easiest form.
And last but not least: IT IS MUCH MUCH MORE DISGUSTING to ingore and post and post not even one posting or prettened that the story is 'fabricated' when news about exumination of dead K-Albanian in Serbia or founding a mass graves of K-Albanians north of Belgrade- you will agree??? you can check here in b92 just a week ago you can count the comments of Serbs on them.
i wrote a response but my student (accidentally) erased it. so, attempt #2:
as for being labeled a "racist" by the serb nationalists, for me, that is like a badge of honor.
as for peter from Poland, if that was some attempt of an apology, i do not accept it. poland has never apologized for the genocide upon its soil, altho it is well known that many poles actively collaborated to make it work. i know all about (and have taught about) the righteous gentiles (as we jews have labeled them), and i respect them enormously as individuals. in any country but especially in countries like poland. but they were an absolute drop in the bucket, and in no way represented the mainstream of polish society, church, etc. that is simply untrue.
poland was heavily anti-semitic before, during AND after the war. there were even pogroms against individual jews after the war had ended, if you can imagine. there are many unfortunate parallels to the 40s and the 90s in europe, for those who will open their eyes and see.
peter from Poland -- i did not bring this up before despite your many biased and arrogant posts. but after yesterday, with this "i am so shocked" and the great christian slavic brotherhood routine, i could take no more.
my family lost some 100 people to those very nice euro christians, and to this day we only know that they were murdered, have no idea about the specifics or where their remains went. no apologies, reparations, no nothing. it doesn't mean that there is "collective guilt" for every pole alive today -- esp for those born after the war! no one said that. but if you are speaking in these historical terms, you need to take some honest responsibility for your country's past. for my people's blood, not to mention the destruction and desecration of our graveyards.
at least to think about it, if not try to act.
as for my other critics, i am well aware of the jagged history of the US (and Israel for that matter) and have often been openly critical of govt's and policies, taken to the streets, written, organized, put in my time. don't lecture me, and don't even TRY to intimidate or bully me.
Talk about a peace loving, multicultural, and respectful "indpendent kosovo"???
I wonder what they would say if serbs did the same (yet as far as i know they never have). But hey, what else do you expect from these albanians? don't let the dead interupt their dream of a completely albanian kosovo.
"sovereign Albanian terrirotry?" It's ironic any Albanian backer wants to throw out sovereignity at this point. That was a good laugh, almost as funny as your history lesson.
The real point here is that crimes are being committed against Serbs, and instead of adding something to the discussion to put a stop to it, you try to justify it. It shows what you are all about.
Peter Sudyka: Your inaccurate commends would made everybody sick since you pretend to be somehow neutral in our issues Albanian - Serb but u really represent not only a polish more than Serb but with your logic and comparisons you just misinform the opinion here. Do not take it as an attack against somebody who just “expresses your opinion here”. I have read carefully all your comments and here is my response.
„Don’t these barbarians have any sense of respect or dignity.... I’d imagine these savages would have some empathy and think how they would feel if the grave of their loved one was destroyed, but I guess they lack the most basic human values and norms”
Everybody here condemns such action but this kind of expression couldn’t come from a person who pretends to be neutral and at least with basic of culture. You don’t need to be a barbaric in order to throw a bottle. Moreover as barbarians have been labelled ….u know.
„That is not a reason for Albanians to go and desecrate the graves of the departed or attack their innocent living relatives”
As Albanian I condemn every kind of attack against anyone being Serb or whatever. Let it the justice..
„And get over yourself with the self-pity. Milosevic is dead and the JNA long since disbanded.”
Wrong Peter. JNA was the Yugoslav Army comprised of the members of national Yugoslavia. Indeed in Kosovo the one who committed crimes where Serbian army together with the Para militia comprised of Russians, Greeks, Macedonians, and Ukrainians and so on….Milosevic is dead however the 12000 victims and 1500 not found yet can not be forgotten as easy as it happend with all the nations over the world.
“Also, there were many Serbs expelled and killed after the war, not to mention many ancient, beautiful Orthodox churches (which I personally view as the most impressive out of all Christian churches) leveled with the ground.”
Anybody not guilty is free to go back in Kosovo. Although the Serbian and roma collaborators know very well why they can’t go back there. It is the price for their crimes since the justice in Kosovo is not able to bring them in front of it. Condemn for “beautiful Churches” but what can u say for 120 mosques destroyed???? Why? I don’t believe in Islam but what the hell had to do the mosques with the war….since for the orthodox priest blessing the Scorpions we have an answer…
“And don't give me the Illyrian nonsense, if that is the Albanian argument, then no white or black American should own land, only the native Indians.”
If it were only for our Illyrian ancestry we would pretend the land up to Slovenia. Have u heard any Albanian to pretend something like that???? The origin is different else from land possession and everybody knows it.
“I am aware of the negative behaviour of some Poles towards the Jews and their property during and after the war, however, I am also aware of the fact that Poland had far more "righteous among the nations" than anyone else”.
As u have mentioned in the other comments u are also aware that Poland had far more Jews in Europe than another country which correspond to the far more righteous among the nations. However the respect has to be paid for everybody risking the life in order to save another.
“It's just that the Jews are starting to thrive again in Poland, while in Kosovo, evidently the opposite is true when it comes to the Serbs”
What a nonsense comment. Sorry but in Poland were the Nazis with polish collaborators who killed the Jews while in Kosovo there were Serbs who killed Albanians and not vice versa. The polish people wouldn’t be so openhearted if the Jews would have killed them as the Serbians did in Kosovo.
Don't these barbarians have any sense of respect or dignity? These are the final resting places of people who have passed away, where they are at peace, most of whom were probably decent people who did nothing wrong to anybody. I'd imagine these savages would have some empathy and think how they would feel if the grave of their loved one was destroyed, but I guess they lack the most basic human values and norms.
What's worse is that their living relatives cannot go and pay their respects in peace! On such a day as this???
Yesterday I visited the graves of my grandparents (we too celebrate this day, we call it Œwiêto Zmar³ych in Poland). I cannot imagine the idea of my family and myself not being able to do so in peace with someone verbally assaulting us or throwing bottles at us, not to mention seeing the graves of my grandparents destroyed. I guess some people just cannot put themselves in that situation and prefer to act like uncivilized beasts.
Sorry, but this made me truly sick in my stomach!!!
What in the h@ll are you talking about village-bey? Your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the article. As always, the ethnic Albanians and their allies (I know, I know, my country is just as responsible and believe me, I wish it wasn't with every inch of my soul) throw reality to the wind, will not condemn such hatred and try to divert attention to something that is totally irrelevent. Please try to stay on subject, go ahead make your excuses for this type of action so I can continue to show all Americans I come in touch with what our govt has done on behalf of a pseudo-state that is run by criminals, traffickers and hate mongers.
You really have to wonder at how low some people will go. I seem to remember a few days ago when B92 reported on a group of Albanians attempting to cross the Ibar were turned back by the Serbs and the predictable names here lambasted Serbian contempt for democracy and culture. We also hear about how Serbs need to just "accept it" and living in a supposedly thriving multi-ethnic "Kosova".
Sadly, incidents like grave descecration and harassment of mourners, while hardly indicative of the entire Albanian race, nevertheless justify reasons for no one wanting to live in this self-proclaimed state. For shame.
that's right, keep throwing them bottles, and be proud. every society should have something to be proud of. yours sadly chose to destroy tombstones, burning mediaeval churches and kidnapping civilians to cut out their livers and hearts. so be it. but do you know what you actually hit every time you throw a bottle at a grieving serb visiting their mother's, father's, child's desecrated grave? you hit rock bottom.
There is probably no Kosovo independence that would be acceptable to the Serbs, but what I don't understand is why this particular independence is acceptable to EU powers.
This is an incompetent government that can not rein in extremist elements that never fail to make Kosovo independence look bad.
State sanctioned bulldozer parties and newly built schools and broken down churches and graveyard has been the only noticeable achievements of Pristina
One would think that after receiving billions of dollars, expert western advice, the promise of independence and the prospect of EU membership, the authorities in pristina would not be the " narco-entrepreneurs" of the 1990s.
For decades people like Rugova told Belgrade that "If you want to be in control of something, you have to learn how to take care of it first" -unfortunately NO ONE is giving this advice to Pristina.
That is not a reason for Albanians to go and desecrate the graves of the departed or attack their innocent living relatives. If those Albanians want justice for what happened in 1999, they should go after the authorities responsible, as well as those soldiers of the JNA who carried out the atrocities in the war, not after innocent people who have done nothing wrong to anybody, not to mention to destroy the graves of their relatives!
And get over yourself with the self-pity. Milosevic is dead and the JNA long since disbanded. Also, there were many Serbs expelled and killed after the war, not to mention many ancient, beautiful Orthodox churches (which I personally view as the most impressive out of all Christian churches) leveled with the ground. What makes those Albanians any better than the JNA of 1999? Nothing! Have the former Kosovo authorities apologized for the innocent Serbs driven out of Kosovo and their property destroyed/stolen? And don't give me the Illyrian nonsense, if that is the Albanian argument, then no white or black American should own land, only the native Indians.
To conclude, regardless of what the Yugoslav authorities and armies were responsible for in 1999, there is no excuse for this revolting behavior 20 years down the line, especially with innocent Serbs who did nothing wrong. How do you expect them to want to integrate into Kosovo now?
This is terrible and I condemn it and I feel that some Albanians feel the same way even if (at time of writing) no Albanian posters have.
It is very sad indeed that victims cannot seem to be able to empathise with other victims. Instead we seem to have some kind of 'compeitition' going on - continuously arguing that other preceeding events were worse.
That kind of position does not help anybody. Each event should be condemned above all. I would not shirk from condemning similar actions from Serbs.
This will make great news in Serbia to galvanize an already disgusted population. Every culture based on crime and injustice will fail. This one sooner than later.
To those who glorify throwing bottles at people visiting graves and have the lack of brains to say it is because no one has apologized well that makes the bottle thrower and provactors just as guilty. Maybe one day when Serbia joins the EU and then NATO. They will be still throwing bottles still stuck in a rut. There is a time to let the past stay in the past instead of pavarsie come with some excuse. Face reality and move with life, get a job raise your children to respect themselves as well as others and maybe Kosovo will move forward.
pavaresi for what should the serbs apologize, for being clansed from their own land for their churches being destroyed or should thay just say we are sorry for our organs being harversted.oh and those 2 thousand albanian that are missing maybe thay should be looking in albania maybe thay are beried next to the 300 serbs with their organs missing as well.
I am aware of the negative behavior of some Poles towards the jews and their property during and after the war, however, I am also aware of the fact that Poland had far more "righteous among the nations" than anyone else.
Roberto: your routine Serb-baiting is tiresome enough, but the comment above is odious, racist and absolutely unjustifiable. I sincerely hope the moderators remove it.
roberto says...BUT, peter from ploand, you really need to spare me some of that self-righteous bleating. do you have any idea, any CLUE what your nice people did..."
Unless you can place Peter as an active participant during the war your negative rantings, roberto, are inappropriate.
Collective guilt is a dangerous concept that should not be tolerated especially coming from an arrogant American who sits in judgement of others.
Roberto, those who throw stones..well you know that rest..
As a jew, you should know that, and as an american..well the examples are endless.
For the albanian posters who justify the desacration of mass graves, you are damaging the repuatation of a very hard working and good-hearted albanian peoples.
"as for peter from Poland, if that was some attempt of an apology, i do not accept it."
Apology? What for? Did I do something wrong perhaps?
"poland has never apologized for the genocide upon its soil, altho it is well known that many poles actively collaborated to make it work."
It was the Nazis who carried out genocide in Poland. Collaborators were to be found in every country, from Hungary to the Netherlands, from the Soviet Union to France etc. Poland is not alone here.
"poland was heavily anti-semitic before, during AND after the war."
That's funny, I thought Poland had the most Jews in Europe before the war and that Poland was a haven for Jews escaping persecution in Western Europe.
Thanks for the history lesson.
"there were even pogroms against individual jews after the war had ended, if you can imagine."
All this while the Poles in Poland were out sunbathing, relaxing and having a picnic with our Soviet brothers ;-).
"but after yesterday, with this "i am so shocked" and the great christian slavic brotherhood routine, i could take no more. "
You're right, how could I be shocked at putting myself in the position of those Serbs who cannot visit the graves of their relatives without being harassed and attacked or standing over a smashed grave? Those Serbs deserve no pity or empathy from their fellow Slavic Christians, don't they?
"my family lost some 100 people to those very nice euro christians, and to this day we only know that they were murdered, have no idea about the specifics or where their remains went. no apologies, reparations, no nothing."
I doubt there are few Europeans from Poland, the former Yugoslavia, the former Soviet Union, Germany, Hungary, the former Czechoslovakia, Romania etc. who did not lose family in the war. One thing I can be pretty sure of is that those 100 family members of yours were more than likely killed by Nazis than by the Poles.
"it doesn't mean that there is "collective guilt" for every pole alive today -- esp for those born after the war! no one said that"
You could have fooled me. If someone here cannot see that hateful venom that you spewed at my people and my country in your last two posts, they are either blind or as anti-Polish as you are being here today.
"but if you are speaking in these historical terms, you need to take some honest responsibility for your country's past. for my people's blood, not to mention the destruction and desecration of our graveyards. "
I do, as I said earlier. Some Poles are definitely not innocent vz. the jews. It's just that the Jews are starting to thrive again in Poland, while in Kosovo, evidently the opposite is true when it comes to the Serbs.
At least you have people like Poland's ex-president apologizing for the Jedwabne and Kielce pogroms. When will Israel apologize for the atrocities of Salomon Morel, who Israel refused to extradite to stand trial for his crimes against humanity?
"Do not take it as an attack against somebody who just “expresses your opinion here”."
Normally I do, but somehow I think you need to read roberto's comments again before you say what you did.
"Everybody here condemns such action but this kind of expression couldn’t come from a person who pretends to be neutral and at least with basic of culture. You don’t need to be a barbaric in order to throw a bottle. Moreover as barbarians have been labelled ….u know. "
If Polish people threw bottles at Jews wanting to visit the graves of their ancestors, I would say exactly the same.
"Anybody not guilty is free to go back in Kosovo. "
I don't believe that very many, if any of those people harassed or their buried relatives were guilty of anything what happened in '99.
"Condemn for “beautiful Churches” but what can u say for 120 mosques destroyed????"
I have said many times that I have an aversion to Islam, but indeed, destruction of their places of worship is also completely unacceptable, shameless behavior, since it achieves nothing. Naturally I will feel closer to the Serbs regarding destruction of their churches, but being a Christian Slav like they are, who do you expect I would feel more sympathy towards, regardless of my objectivity?
"Indeed in Kosovo the one who committed crimes where Serbian army together with the Para militia comprised of Russians, Greeks, Macedonians, and Ukrainians and so on"
Religious affiliation was normal when it came to volunteers fighting for the sides in the Balkans. Everyone knows that for the Serbs, there were Russian, Greek, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Macedonian, Romanian, Bulgarian etc. volunteers, for the Croats there were German, Canadian, American, English, Italian, French, Polish, Dutch, Swedish etc. volunteers and for the Bosniaks/Albanians (in Bosnian and Kosovo war respectively) you had Turkish, Arabic, Persian etc. volunteers. They all took part in war crimes at some stage, so to blame one side only really is not fair.
"However the respect has to be paid for everybody risking the life in order to save another. "
That's an understatement! Poland was probably the only country (due to its huge Jewish population) where someone caught hiding jews was shot on the spot, including the entire family. Is it a surprise then that many Poles did not help the jews?
"Sorry but in Poland were the Nazis with polish collaborators who killed the Jews while in Kosovo there were Serbs who killed Albanians and not vice versa."
While indeed many more Albanians were killed in the war, to say that Albanians did not kill any Serbs during the war or after is simply wrong! This is a known fact.
"The polish people wouldn’t be so openhearted if the Jews would have killed them as the Serbians did in Kosovo."
Jewish bolsheviks actively took part in massacres of Poland in Eastern Poland after the Soviet invasion, to claim the jews as being totally innocent is also wrong.
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