I find it unspeakably disgusting of Biserko,who by the way is a Croat and her brother was killed as an Croatian soldier during the ethnic cleansing of Croatias Serb minority.
And now this person is somehow "concerned" about the Kosovo Serbs fate,trying to manipulate them politically,of course blaming Belgrade for it.GIVE ME A BREAK .
It is like blaming the Jewish concentration camp inmates for their dyry condition instead of blaming the nazi guards.
Very,very low...
I am still unsure, what is your goal. You asked for a dialogue, as it was offered to you nothing happened. I can accept your words - but you constantly refuse to prove what you are saying. There is no discussion, only ex-cathedra and it is less efficient.
I stick to my words about Sonja Biserko: her words were contradicting each other within the same sentence. Most likely she tried to please her hosts. I have no problem to please my Albanian hosts - in the fact I did few days ago. I felt, he deserved.
Sonia Biserko is one of the brightest and most progressive people in serbia, and in the balkans. we've met with her a number of times, and she is so amazing. i refuse to even honor the slanderous comments against her, except to say that at one time yugoslavia was a communist country, and speaking of "communist" families is completely meaningless, not to mention irrelevant. as for the croatian reference, well, that's just another cheap nationalist slur, among so many others.
as for whether her comments "make sense," with biserko, you really have to listen, whether in english or in serbo-croatian (as i call it.) she has an incredible intellect, and doesn't oversimplify her language simply so the masses (us) can "get" it quickly. she makes you think -- she makes you work.
but in person, she is quite warm and welcoming, and this is a lady who has endured quite a lot of nastiness, death threats, and god knows how many campaigns of lies and intimidation.
as for the content of her words, she seems to be one of the few people who really does care about the people of kosovo/a, ALL of the people, not just one ethnicity. the belgrade regime CLaims it cares for "its" people, but that is not the case, they are simply pawns for expansionist goals, as serbs throughout the former YU have long been and continue to be (think "Republika Srpska.") or, put another way, they "care" about "their" people when it is convenient, and when it ain't, goodbye charlie (goodbye predrag).
we cannot solve the situation of the kosovo/a serbs until we have peace in the balkans, and there will be no peace as long as the blgd regime keeps stiring up trouble. period.
god bless sonia biserko, and her colleagues, who remain dissident and defiant. you give hopoe to all of us, anywhere around the world.
To Peggy: I have NEVER called you a car dealer. I challenge you to tell me when I did that. Perhaps someone else did and I certainly have not read that post, but I myself have never.
It is bad enough that Albanian posters here twist my words now you are inventing phrases that I have never used.
Are you that desperate to discredit me?
(Peggy, 21 October 2008 21:48)
Here it is Peggy:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=54131
Look for #4.
But that's besides the point. You can read any writing as you see fit. The reason that I brought it up it's not that I felt offended by you but to show that there are many people, like Mrs. Biserko that think just like me. K-Serbs have been following Belgrade like blind chickens and haven't had any courage to use their own rationale. The disaster is that any prominent K-Serbs that speaks reality and has any power (I think one of them is called Jovanovic if I am not mistaken), sooner or later will be sucked up in the "Milk Kosovo for money and power" type of Belgrade politics leaving his compatriots in the dry. And what I say is that K-Serbs are wasting time and opportunities with Belgrade. They should speak to K-Authorities to have their lives improved. Contrary to some baseless beliefs, K-Albanians are consolidating their position day by day. If K-Serbs continue to play "All or Nothing" game it is guaranteed they will end with nothing. If they want to secure their future existence they must change their tactics and embark a new strategy of cooperation and reconciliation. They know their K-Albanian neighbors better than Kostunica and Jeremic. They lived with each other for too long. If they refuse to see the truth K-Serbs will be doomed.
Read what Mrs. Biserko is saying.
Peggy, God forbid, I have no intention to discredit you. I have another life except writing here, you know!
Sonja Biserko comes from a Croat communist family.
(ida, 21 October 2008 23:59)
This is clearly Ukrainian, probably Rusyn family name, Ida. AFAIK, Rusyns live in Vojvodina. Or maybe she is related to some white-Army cossacks who escaped Russia around 1920. But than she is not likely to be a communist.
National origin does not count much. She may have agenda above her origin.
There is a lot of small and not-so-small "tit-for-tat". As I said, I did notice two during my short trip, not sure which is worse:
- a stupid booklet written in Russian about Banjska Monastery. What was written please let me omit. Who wrote it, was on 'shrooms.
- The Decani monastery sign being 90 degrees off (mentioned many times already), so drivers will miss it for sure. I did complain already twice here, no need to go in details the third time.
I can understand both, but both are 100% wrong. The second is a complete brain damage because precisely the Decani monks saved many Albanians during the tough times. Historically Decani was protected by certain Albanian tribesman, so I don't know who was that IQ-giant who did the sign turning.
To Village-Bey:
- agree with the first paragraph completely.
- do not agree about isolation. The Serbs in northern part are absolutely part of Serbia. Even more: there are numerous cars with "PS" and even "PR" on the road in Serbia. Once in Kosovo, they keep the license plates till the last gas station, than remove them and exchange to ones used in Albanian Kosovo. Why? What would happen with the car if it has Serb plates? This license plate circus has to be stopped. Even Bradt Kosovo book writes, cars with "BG" should not drive to Kosovo. Many Serbs and Albanians who do not want to be "confined" in southern part of Kosovo use more sophisticated tricks, you probably know all, but let me keep it for the time being.
- Kosovo Police is hiding precisely like their Serb colleagues. They use obviously the same tactics. I was curious (sorry) to see, what happens while driving over 10% over the speed limit. Nothing, of course. But I did notice, why they are there: they "hunt" for trucks having "BG" plates. Why? These trucks were already controlled, etc. at the border. I hardly can imagine, a car with "BG" plate would do anything risky in Kosovo. But no, they were stopped. While I wasn't. Hmmmmm.....
---------------------------------
Simple and obvious, it is lamentable that all serbian voices that have no direct and total alignment with Belgrade be treated here and at serbian government like traitors at be silenced.
(Paul Leguska, 21 October 2008 21:58)
Paul, can you please share that one with me? Never tried anything like that, but smoke&fly is better than drink&drive. Sorry to be sarcastic, but... how many times you happen to be in Belgrade?
Sonja Biserko comes from a Croat communist family. The U.S. funds her group and others like it.
Some people mention that economics more than security is why people are leaving but fail to see how the lack of security is a main factor in the economic situation. For instance Serbs can't cultivate their lands due to attacks and threats by Albanians so they can't earn money this way. In addition their livestock, cattle and equipment has been stolen frequently by Albanians which causes a loss in the Serbian economic situation. As well you had Serbian businesses, looted, taken over and destroyed by Albanians. Plus you have the disruption of trade routes with Serbia and it being unsafe for Serbian Serbs to travel to the ski resort in Southern Kosovo which is run by the Serbs.
The Albanian violence and theft and restriction of movement for Serbs are the main factors in ruining the economic situation for Kosovo Serbs.
It is in the interest of an independent Kosova to discourage anyone from living, especially Kosova’s Serbs. It is also in the interest of an independent Kosova to have all them who had left, return successfully.
This would make Kosova a functioning, multiethnic democracy.
Same thing can’t be said for Belgrade. They might not necessarily wont Serbs to leave but at the same time are conditioning the existence of the same Serbs to a life of isolation, non cooperation and hostility. If relations between two people remain tense, in a way would prove BG’s theme that Serbs cannot live along side of Albanians, thus a partition is needed. To make sure people stay in these conditions, BG pays them 150 Euros per month.
Paying people not to pack up and leave is a massive gamble that might backfire badly. So far this policy hasn’t stopped the steady flow of Serbs while the returns remain insignificant.
BG’s calculation might be that this is a short term measure to a short term solution.
Obviously this is not the case and it is time now they thought long term.
In an earlier posting I expressed the desire for the K-Serbs to start cooperation with K-Authorities. Sooner they do that the better for them. Peggy called me a "car dealer" then. The question to Peggy is: What is she going to call K-Serbs when they will be left with nothing! "Bad car buyers"? Mr. Biserko, simply speaks what her eyes see and she is no "car dealer".
(miri, 21 October 2008 18:03)
Miri, I know I am not liked by the Albanian camp on this site and I am not wanting to become liked, but at least stop with the lies. Why are you ganging up on me with lies? Debate what I say and please stay away from putting words in my mouth.
I have NEVER called you a car dealer. I challenge you to tell me when I did that. Perhaps someone else did and I certainly have not read that post, but I myself have never.
It is bad enough that Albanian posters here twist my words now you are inventing phrases that I have never used.
"Regardless, on what side of the fence anyone of us does sit, please read that sentence again and again:
"Kosovo independence is a reality in the region, although what that independence will look like and what will be involved in that independence is something that has still to be defined by the Kosovo state, the government and the international community, which has a huge role here, and of course, it depends on how Belgrade will behave too,” Biserko told an international conference in Priština." "
Mr. Ataman,
THe statement of mrs. is perfect clear and understandable, please permit me cut it for better explain:
1- "Kosovo independence is a reality in the region,"
The process of independence came at the no return point (so all tries of revert the process regarding a future reabsorbing of land by Serbia is now impossible)
2- "although what that independence will look like and what will be involved in that independence is something that has still to be defined by the Kosovo state"
the final face of Kosovo state (multiethinic or no by example among others decisions)
will be produced only by the will of the kosovar people (at least nowadays this is the truth)
3- "the government and the international community, which has a huge role here, and of course, it depends on how Belgrade will behave too,"
the kosovar government have a huge task on defining and deploying the future final face and the international community have a huge role on aiding the kosovar government on this duty BUT the belgrade behavior can force some actions and positions with its attitude.
Summarizing: the continuous actions of Belgrade of revert the independence will force some unavoidable reactions from Pristina (and this means of course that the serbian minority will pay the price of belgrade decision of try kosovo like a permanent rebelled province at be controlled at future with no date yet)
Simple and obvious, it is lamentable that all serbian voices that have no direct and total alignment with Belgrade be treated here and at serbian government like traitors at be silenced. Belgrade bet its coins on economic and diplomatic pressure for reduce Bosnia, Kosovo and perhaps Macedonia at near future at the status of serbian provinces and on this path the use of serbian minorities and the concept of multiethinic society for desestabilizes these countries is a all nothing game but Belgrade seems dont mind with serbian people but only with the milosevic's dream of a future great serbia.
>>> While albanians due to high birth rates and an influx from Albania
what influx? Why would Albanians go to Kosova when it's poorer than Albania? of course, even hardcore Serb nationalists know that during Enver Hoxha no one could leave
In an earlier posting I expressed the desire for the K-Serbs to start cooperation with K-Authorities. Sooner they do that the better for them. Peggy called me a "car dealer" then. The question to Peggy is: What is she going to call K-Serbs when they will be left with nothing! "Bad car buyers"? Mr. Biserko, simply speaks what her eyes see and she is no "car dealer".
Regardless of what the ICJ ruling will be or if there would be some kind of agreement between serbs and albanians, Kosovo is forever lost for the serbs. Why? Because all serbs will sooner or later leave the impoverished and crime infested Kosovo. For the last 30-40 years serbs have left this province that we say we cherish so much. While albanians due to high birth rates and an influx from Albania have become the dominant and soon the only nationality in Kosovo. The question is: Is Kosovo REALLY important to the serbs if there are no serbs left? If yes, why?
In a way, Biserko is right. What future is there for a young Serb from Orahovac, Klina, or even Gracanica? These places run the risk of becoming little more than Serbian outposts that within a generation or two will simply cease to exist. If Tadic's compromise with the EU is to secure vital links to these regions where people both stay in the region and cultivate the region and stay in the region, there's going to have to be some cooperation with EULEX.
Migrations have less to do with ethnic intimidation than with economic availability. If Serbs gravitate towards BG or Kosovska Mitrovica, all that will be left are the monasteries. This is something that definitely needs to be addressed.
Who in the hell are this people,Serbian kids in Kosovo are going to school with armed guards and she`s talking about what.
She should visit those barbed wired enclaves before she makes another stupid comment.
“Currently, Belgrade is the most negative factory, as it is interfering with the integration of the Serbs into Kosovo institutions,” Biserko said, adding that there were differing stances on Kosovo independence within the Serb community in Kosovo.
“Serbs in the enclaves have, in a way, accepted the reality after independence. They have more criticisms for Belgrade and Kosovska Mitrovica than Priština.
We have said several times that Beograd’s strategy of playing nationalism with Serbs in North of Kosovo is costing Kosovo stability and prosperity but important is that victims are all Kosovars, Albanians, Serbs and other minorities.
If Beograd approached differently Kosovo’s case, none would be suffering. Look ex-Yugoslav republics. Where Serbia have interfered less – better result they have reach on their stability and European perspective. Slovenia is an example, FYR Macedonia is another one except FYR Macedonia has problem with Greece that have slow her down in NATO and EU integration.
Croatia still has problems with Serbia, Bosnia is not stable because of Serbia and RS, Montenegro step toward NATO and EU are “controlled” by Serbia desire to “tolerate” its little neighbor-brother and last one, Kosovo, worst interference from Serbia made Kosovo far far from being in the tracks toward NATO and EU.
Who are suffering the most from Beograd politics? Those are Serbs in Croatia, Serbs in isolated RS, Serbs in Montenegro, and Serbs in North Kosovo.
It is time for Beograd to change politics and move itself toward European integrations. The only thing what Beograd will lose from European integration is its bully attitude and poverty.
If Biserko was truly concerned with the plight of the serbs in the enclaves, she should be addressing the root causes of the serb exodus from the enclaves - something about which the organisation she is a part of, claims as it's field of expertise - the abuse of human rights.
Should be pressing Thaci to co-operate with the people investigating the claims of 'organ-harvesting' & to expedite the arrest & prosecution of those who were behind of & took part in, the pogrom of 2004.
Until these issues are addressed, this 'low-level ethnic cleansing' will continue, & the chances of the far greater number of serb refugees in Serbia proper & elsewhere returning will remain minimal.
Do they have some more openings for easy jobs where people can sit in posh chair, attend parties and be paid for that plus saying things completely detached from the real life? I like that.
Regardless, on what side of the fence anyone of us does sit, please read that sentence again and again:
"Kosovo independence is a reality in the region, although what that independence will look like and what will be involved in that independence is something that has still to be defined by the Kosovo state, the government and the international community, which has a huge role here, and of course, it depends on how Belgrade will behave too,” Biserko told an international conference in Priština."
I need a bottle of Skanderbeu or Slivovica (or both) to understand, what she wants to say. This is meaningless, a place-filler and the author of it did succeed to contradict several times in the same sentence.
Now, I really want that job! (And Skanderbeu with Slivovica).
Good assessment by Mrs Biserko. I agree with 95% of your comment. However, I think you are at the wrong place. You should have been a Serbian President or PM, in order for Serbia to experience peace and prosperity and this region to progress.
Serbian strategy to play out, obviously has not been successful. It conatined on making life as difficult as possible to Albanians. It was somehow successful in the '90 when many Albanians left Kosovo for a better life in the West, but Serb refugees from Kroatia and Bosnia didn't want to live in Kosovo. Even Kosovo-Serbs left Kosovo due to lacks on perspectives. After the war Serbia is continuing her strategy to leave Kosovo on the ropes, without a definated status and failed again
What Sonja Biserko is actually encouraging is the continuation of ethnic cleansing by isolation and applying pressure to the Serbian population in the enclaves along with the participation of the EU and NATO. They are all partners in crime as far as I'm concerned as re-integration didn't work in BiH and it wont work in KiM.
This is nothing surprising coming from this camp but the saddest thing of all is that this pretend "government" in Serbia is doing little or nothing to improve conditions for these people. It really is a shame and will only make matters worse when the tables are turned.
I'm slightly perplexed as to why an organisation whose - admittedly self-imposed - brief is to monitor human rights issues is commenting on the constitutional status on Kosovo. Surely the multiple abuses of minority rights in the province should be of more interest to Ms Biserko. Or is this, shall we say, an obligation to her sponsors?
I'm slightly perplexed as to why an organisation whose - admittedly self-imposed - brief is to monitor human rights issues is commenting on the constitutional status on Kosovo. Surely the multiple abuses of minority rights in the province should be of more interest to Ms Biserko. Or is this, shall we say, an obligation to her sponsors?
Who in the hell are this people,Serbian kids in Kosovo are going to school with armed guards and she`s talking about what.
She should visit those barbed wired enclaves before she makes another stupid comment.
If Biserko was truly concerned with the plight of the serbs in the enclaves, she should be addressing the root causes of the serb exodus from the enclaves - something about which the organisation she is a part of, claims as it's field of expertise - the abuse of human rights.
Should be pressing Thaci to co-operate with the people investigating the claims of 'organ-harvesting' & to expedite the arrest & prosecution of those who were behind of & took part in, the pogrom of 2004.
Until these issues are addressed, this 'low-level ethnic cleansing' will continue, & the chances of the far greater number of serb refugees in Serbia proper & elsewhere returning will remain minimal.
Good assessment by Mrs Biserko. I agree with 95% of your comment. However, I think you are at the wrong place. You should have been a Serbian President or PM, in order for Serbia to experience peace and prosperity and this region to progress.
What Sonja Biserko is actually encouraging is the continuation of ethnic cleansing by isolation and applying pressure to the Serbian population in the enclaves along with the participation of the EU and NATO. They are all partners in crime as far as I'm concerned as re-integration didn't work in BiH and it wont work in KiM.
This is nothing surprising coming from this camp but the saddest thing of all is that this pretend "government" in Serbia is doing little or nothing to improve conditions for these people. It really is a shame and will only make matters worse when the tables are turned.
Serbian strategy to play out, obviously has not been successful. It conatined on making life as difficult as possible to Albanians. It was somehow successful in the '90 when many Albanians left Kosovo for a better life in the West, but Serb refugees from Kroatia and Bosnia didn't want to live in Kosovo. Even Kosovo-Serbs left Kosovo due to lacks on perspectives. After the war Serbia is continuing her strategy to leave Kosovo on the ropes, without a definated status and failed again
“Currently, Belgrade is the most negative factory, as it is interfering with the integration of the Serbs into Kosovo institutions,” Biserko said, adding that there were differing stances on Kosovo independence within the Serb community in Kosovo.
“Serbs in the enclaves have, in a way, accepted the reality after independence. They have more criticisms for Belgrade and Kosovska Mitrovica than Priština.
We have said several times that Beograd’s strategy of playing nationalism with Serbs in North of Kosovo is costing Kosovo stability and prosperity but important is that victims are all Kosovars, Albanians, Serbs and other minorities.
If Beograd approached differently Kosovo’s case, none would be suffering. Look ex-Yugoslav republics. Where Serbia have interfered less – better result they have reach on their stability and European perspective. Slovenia is an example, FYR Macedonia is another one except FYR Macedonia has problem with Greece that have slow her down in NATO and EU integration.
Croatia still has problems with Serbia, Bosnia is not stable because of Serbia and RS, Montenegro step toward NATO and EU are “controlled” by Serbia desire to “tolerate” its little neighbor-brother and last one, Kosovo, worst interference from Serbia made Kosovo far far from being in the tracks toward NATO and EU.
Who are suffering the most from Beograd politics? Those are Serbs in Croatia, Serbs in isolated RS, Serbs in Montenegro, and Serbs in North Kosovo.
It is time for Beograd to change politics and move itself toward European integrations. The only thing what Beograd will lose from European integration is its bully attitude and poverty.
In an earlier posting I expressed the desire for the K-Serbs to start cooperation with K-Authorities. Sooner they do that the better for them. Peggy called me a "car dealer" then. The question to Peggy is: What is she going to call K-Serbs when they will be left with nothing! "Bad car buyers"? Mr. Biserko, simply speaks what her eyes see and she is no "car dealer".
In a way, Biserko is right. What future is there for a young Serb from Orahovac, Klina, or even Gracanica? These places run the risk of becoming little more than Serbian outposts that within a generation or two will simply cease to exist. If Tadic's compromise with the EU is to secure vital links to these regions where people both stay in the region and cultivate the region and stay in the region, there's going to have to be some cooperation with EULEX.
Migrations have less to do with ethnic intimidation than with economic availability. If Serbs gravitate towards BG or Kosovska Mitrovica, all that will be left are the monasteries. This is something that definitely needs to be addressed.
Regardless, on what side of the fence anyone of us does sit, please read that sentence again and again:
"Kosovo independence is a reality in the region, although what that independence will look like and what will be involved in that independence is something that has still to be defined by the Kosovo state, the government and the international community, which has a huge role here, and of course, it depends on how Belgrade will behave too,” Biserko told an international conference in Priština."
I need a bottle of Skanderbeu or Slivovica (or both) to understand, what she wants to say. This is meaningless, a place-filler and the author of it did succeed to contradict several times in the same sentence.
Now, I really want that job! (And Skanderbeu with Slivovica).
Do they have some more openings for easy jobs where people can sit in posh chair, attend parties and be paid for that plus saying things completely detached from the real life? I like that.
Sonja Biserko comes from a Croat communist family. The U.S. funds her group and others like it.
Some people mention that economics more than security is why people are leaving but fail to see how the lack of security is a main factor in the economic situation. For instance Serbs can't cultivate their lands due to attacks and threats by Albanians so they can't earn money this way. In addition their livestock, cattle and equipment has been stolen frequently by Albanians which causes a loss in the Serbian economic situation. As well you had Serbian businesses, looted, taken over and destroyed by Albanians. Plus you have the disruption of trade routes with Serbia and it being unsafe for Serbian Serbs to travel to the ski resort in Southern Kosovo which is run by the Serbs.
The Albanian violence and theft and restriction of movement for Serbs are the main factors in ruining the economic situation for Kosovo Serbs.
In an earlier posting I expressed the desire for the K-Serbs to start cooperation with K-Authorities. Sooner they do that the better for them. Peggy called me a "car dealer" then. The question to Peggy is: What is she going to call K-Serbs when they will be left with nothing! "Bad car buyers"? Mr. Biserko, simply speaks what her eyes see and she is no "car dealer".
(miri, 21 October 2008 18:03)
Miri, I know I am not liked by the Albanian camp on this site and I am not wanting to become liked, but at least stop with the lies. Why are you ganging up on me with lies? Debate what I say and please stay away from putting words in my mouth.
I have NEVER called you a car dealer. I challenge you to tell me when I did that. Perhaps someone else did and I certainly have not read that post, but I myself have never.
It is bad enough that Albanian posters here twist my words now you are inventing phrases that I have never used.
It is in the interest of an independent Kosova to discourage anyone from living, especially Kosova’s Serbs. It is also in the interest of an independent Kosova to have all them who had left, return successfully.
This would make Kosova a functioning, multiethnic democracy.
Same thing can’t be said for Belgrade. They might not necessarily wont Serbs to leave but at the same time are conditioning the existence of the same Serbs to a life of isolation, non cooperation and hostility. If relations between two people remain tense, in a way would prove BG’s theme that Serbs cannot live along side of Albanians, thus a partition is needed. To make sure people stay in these conditions, BG pays them 150 Euros per month.
Paying people not to pack up and leave is a massive gamble that might backfire badly. So far this policy hasn’t stopped the steady flow of Serbs while the returns remain insignificant.
BG’s calculation might be that this is a short term measure to a short term solution.
Obviously this is not the case and it is time now they thought long term.
Regardless of what the ICJ ruling will be or if there would be some kind of agreement between serbs and albanians, Kosovo is forever lost for the serbs. Why? Because all serbs will sooner or later leave the impoverished and crime infested Kosovo. For the last 30-40 years serbs have left this province that we say we cherish so much. While albanians due to high birth rates and an influx from Albania have become the dominant and soon the only nationality in Kosovo. The question is: Is Kosovo REALLY important to the serbs if there are no serbs left? If yes, why?
>>> While albanians due to high birth rates and an influx from Albania
what influx? Why would Albanians go to Kosova when it's poorer than Albania? of course, even hardcore Serb nationalists know that during Enver Hoxha no one could leave
"Regardless, on what side of the fence anyone of us does sit, please read that sentence again and again:
"Kosovo independence is a reality in the region, although what that independence will look like and what will be involved in that independence is something that has still to be defined by the Kosovo state, the government and the international community, which has a huge role here, and of course, it depends on how Belgrade will behave too,” Biserko told an international conference in Priština." "
Mr. Ataman,
THe statement of mrs. is perfect clear and understandable, please permit me cut it for better explain:
1- "Kosovo independence is a reality in the region,"
The process of independence came at the no return point (so all tries of revert the process regarding a future reabsorbing of land by Serbia is now impossible)
2- "although what that independence will look like and what will be involved in that independence is something that has still to be defined by the Kosovo state"
the final face of Kosovo state (multiethinic or no by example among others decisions)
will be produced only by the will of the kosovar people (at least nowadays this is the truth)
3- "the government and the international community, which has a huge role here, and of course, it depends on how Belgrade will behave too,"
the kosovar government have a huge task on defining and deploying the future final face and the international community have a huge role on aiding the kosovar government on this duty BUT the belgrade behavior can force some actions and positions with its attitude.
Summarizing: the continuous actions of Belgrade of revert the independence will force some unavoidable reactions from Pristina (and this means of course that the serbian minority will pay the price of belgrade decision of try kosovo like a permanent rebelled province at be controlled at future with no date yet)
Simple and obvious, it is lamentable that all serbian voices that have no direct and total alignment with Belgrade be treated here and at serbian government like traitors at be silenced. Belgrade bet its coins on economic and diplomatic pressure for reduce Bosnia, Kosovo and perhaps Macedonia at near future at the status of serbian provinces and on this path the use of serbian minorities and the concept of multiethinic society for desestabilizes these countries is a all nothing game but Belgrade seems dont mind with serbian people but only with the milosevic's dream of a future great serbia.
I find it unspeakably disgusting of Biserko,who by the way is a Croat and her brother was killed as an Croatian soldier during the ethnic cleansing of Croatias Serb minority.
And now this person is somehow "concerned" about the Kosovo Serbs fate,trying to manipulate them politically,of course blaming Belgrade for it.GIVE ME A BREAK .
It is like blaming the Jewish concentration camp inmates for their dyry condition instead of blaming the nazi guards.
Very,very low...
Sonja Biserko comes from a Croat communist family.
(ida, 21 October 2008 23:59)
This is clearly Ukrainian, probably Rusyn family name, Ida. AFAIK, Rusyns live in Vojvodina. Or maybe she is related to some white-Army cossacks who escaped Russia around 1920. But than she is not likely to be a communist.
National origin does not count much. She may have agenda above her origin.
Sonia Biserko is one of the brightest and most progressive people in serbia, and in the balkans. we've met with her a number of times, and she is so amazing. i refuse to even honor the slanderous comments against her, except to say that at one time yugoslavia was a communist country, and speaking of "communist" families is completely meaningless, not to mention irrelevant. as for the croatian reference, well, that's just another cheap nationalist slur, among so many others.
as for whether her comments "make sense," with biserko, you really have to listen, whether in english or in serbo-croatian (as i call it.) she has an incredible intellect, and doesn't oversimplify her language simply so the masses (us) can "get" it quickly. she makes you think -- she makes you work.
but in person, she is quite warm and welcoming, and this is a lady who has endured quite a lot of nastiness, death threats, and god knows how many campaigns of lies and intimidation.
as for the content of her words, she seems to be one of the few people who really does care about the people of kosovo/a, ALL of the people, not just one ethnicity. the belgrade regime CLaims it cares for "its" people, but that is not the case, they are simply pawns for expansionist goals, as serbs throughout the former YU have long been and continue to be (think "Republika Srpska.") or, put another way, they "care" about "their" people when it is convenient, and when it ain't, goodbye charlie (goodbye predrag).
we cannot solve the situation of the kosovo/a serbs until we have peace in the balkans, and there will be no peace as long as the blgd regime keeps stiring up trouble. period.
god bless sonia biserko, and her colleagues, who remain dissident and defiant. you give hopoe to all of us, anywhere around the world.
There is a lot of small and not-so-small "tit-for-tat". As I said, I did notice two during my short trip, not sure which is worse:
- a stupid booklet written in Russian about Banjska Monastery. What was written please let me omit. Who wrote it, was on 'shrooms.
- The Decani monastery sign being 90 degrees off (mentioned many times already), so drivers will miss it for sure. I did complain already twice here, no need to go in details the third time.
I can understand both, but both are 100% wrong. The second is a complete brain damage because precisely the Decani monks saved many Albanians during the tough times. Historically Decani was protected by certain Albanian tribesman, so I don't know who was that IQ-giant who did the sign turning.
To Village-Bey:
- agree with the first paragraph completely.
- do not agree about isolation. The Serbs in northern part are absolutely part of Serbia. Even more: there are numerous cars with "PS" and even "PR" on the road in Serbia. Once in Kosovo, they keep the license plates till the last gas station, than remove them and exchange to ones used in Albanian Kosovo. Why? What would happen with the car if it has Serb plates? This license plate circus has to be stopped. Even Bradt Kosovo book writes, cars with "BG" should not drive to Kosovo. Many Serbs and Albanians who do not want to be "confined" in southern part of Kosovo use more sophisticated tricks, you probably know all, but let me keep it for the time being.
- Kosovo Police is hiding precisely like their Serb colleagues. They use obviously the same tactics. I was curious (sorry) to see, what happens while driving over 10% over the speed limit. Nothing, of course. But I did notice, why they are there: they "hunt" for trucks having "BG" plates. Why? These trucks were already controlled, etc. at the border. I hardly can imagine, a car with "BG" plate would do anything risky in Kosovo. But no, they were stopped. While I wasn't. Hmmmmm.....
---------------------------------
Simple and obvious, it is lamentable that all serbian voices that have no direct and total alignment with Belgrade be treated here and at serbian government like traitors at be silenced.
(Paul Leguska, 21 October 2008 21:58)
Paul, can you please share that one with me? Never tried anything like that, but smoke&fly is better than drink&drive. Sorry to be sarcastic, but... how many times you happen to be in Belgrade?
To Peggy: I have NEVER called you a car dealer. I challenge you to tell me when I did that. Perhaps someone else did and I certainly have not read that post, but I myself have never.
It is bad enough that Albanian posters here twist my words now you are inventing phrases that I have never used.
Are you that desperate to discredit me?
(Peggy, 21 October 2008 21:48)
Here it is Peggy:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=54131
Look for #4.
But that's besides the point. You can read any writing as you see fit. The reason that I brought it up it's not that I felt offended by you but to show that there are many people, like Mrs. Biserko that think just like me. K-Serbs have been following Belgrade like blind chickens and haven't had any courage to use their own rationale. The disaster is that any prominent K-Serbs that speaks reality and has any power (I think one of them is called Jovanovic if I am not mistaken), sooner or later will be sucked up in the "Milk Kosovo for money and power" type of Belgrade politics leaving his compatriots in the dry. And what I say is that K-Serbs are wasting time and opportunities with Belgrade. They should speak to K-Authorities to have their lives improved. Contrary to some baseless beliefs, K-Albanians are consolidating their position day by day. If K-Serbs continue to play "All or Nothing" game it is guaranteed they will end with nothing. If they want to secure their future existence they must change their tactics and embark a new strategy of cooperation and reconciliation. They know their K-Albanian neighbors better than Kostunica and Jeremic. They lived with each other for too long. If they refuse to see the truth K-Serbs will be doomed.
Read what Mrs. Biserko is saying.
Peggy, God forbid, I have no intention to discredit you. I have another life except writing here, you know!
I am still unsure, what is your goal. You asked for a dialogue, as it was offered to you nothing happened. I can accept your words - but you constantly refuse to prove what you are saying. There is no discussion, only ex-cathedra and it is less efficient.
I stick to my words about Sonja Biserko: her words were contradicting each other within the same sentence. Most likely she tried to please her hosts. I have no problem to please my Albanian hosts - in the fact I did few days ago. I felt, he deserved.
“Currently, Belgrade is the most negative factory, as it is interfering with the integration of the Serbs into Kosovo institutions,” Biserko said, adding that there were differing stances on Kosovo independence within the Serb community in Kosovo.
“Serbs in the enclaves have, in a way, accepted the reality after independence. They have more criticisms for Belgrade and Kosovska Mitrovica than Priština.
We have said several times that Beograd’s strategy of playing nationalism with Serbs in North of Kosovo is costing Kosovo stability and prosperity but important is that victims are all Kosovars, Albanians, Serbs and other minorities.
If Beograd approached differently Kosovo’s case, none would be suffering. Look ex-Yugoslav republics. Where Serbia have interfered less – better result they have reach on their stability and European perspective. Slovenia is an example, FYR Macedonia is another one except FYR Macedonia has problem with Greece that have slow her down in NATO and EU integration.
Croatia still has problems with Serbia, Bosnia is not stable because of Serbia and RS, Montenegro step toward NATO and EU are “controlled” by Serbia desire to “tolerate” its little neighbor-brother and last one, Kosovo, worst interference from Serbia made Kosovo far far from being in the tracks toward NATO and EU.
Who are suffering the most from Beograd politics? Those are Serbs in Croatia, Serbs in isolated RS, Serbs in Montenegro, and Serbs in North Kosovo.
It is time for Beograd to change politics and move itself toward European integrations. The only thing what Beograd will lose from European integration is its bully attitude and poverty.
Good assessment by Mrs Biserko. I agree with 95% of your comment. However, I think you are at the wrong place. You should have been a Serbian President or PM, in order for Serbia to experience peace and prosperity and this region to progress.
In an earlier posting I expressed the desire for the K-Serbs to start cooperation with K-Authorities. Sooner they do that the better for them. Peggy called me a "car dealer" then. The question to Peggy is: What is she going to call K-Serbs when they will be left with nothing! "Bad car buyers"? Mr. Biserko, simply speaks what her eyes see and she is no "car dealer".
Regardless of what the ICJ ruling will be or if there would be some kind of agreement between serbs and albanians, Kosovo is forever lost for the serbs. Why? Because all serbs will sooner or later leave the impoverished and crime infested Kosovo. For the last 30-40 years serbs have left this province that we say we cherish so much. While albanians due to high birth rates and an influx from Albania have become the dominant and soon the only nationality in Kosovo. The question is: Is Kosovo REALLY important to the serbs if there are no serbs left? If yes, why?
Serbian strategy to play out, obviously has not been successful. It conatined on making life as difficult as possible to Albanians. It was somehow successful in the '90 when many Albanians left Kosovo for a better life in the West, but Serb refugees from Kroatia and Bosnia didn't want to live in Kosovo. Even Kosovo-Serbs left Kosovo due to lacks on perspectives. After the war Serbia is continuing her strategy to leave Kosovo on the ropes, without a definated status and failed again
>>> While albanians due to high birth rates and an influx from Albania
what influx? Why would Albanians go to Kosova when it's poorer than Albania? of course, even hardcore Serb nationalists know that during Enver Hoxha no one could leave
"Regardless, on what side of the fence anyone of us does sit, please read that sentence again and again:
"Kosovo independence is a reality in the region, although what that independence will look like and what will be involved in that independence is something that has still to be defined by the Kosovo state, the government and the international community, which has a huge role here, and of course, it depends on how Belgrade will behave too,” Biserko told an international conference in Priština." "
Mr. Ataman,
THe statement of mrs. is perfect clear and understandable, please permit me cut it for better explain:
1- "Kosovo independence is a reality in the region,"
The process of independence came at the no return point (so all tries of revert the process regarding a future reabsorbing of land by Serbia is now impossible)
2- "although what that independence will look like and what will be involved in that independence is something that has still to be defined by the Kosovo state"
the final face of Kosovo state (multiethinic or no by example among others decisions)
will be produced only by the will of the kosovar people (at least nowadays this is the truth)
3- "the government and the international community, which has a huge role here, and of course, it depends on how Belgrade will behave too,"
the kosovar government have a huge task on defining and deploying the future final face and the international community have a huge role on aiding the kosovar government on this duty BUT the belgrade behavior can force some actions and positions with its attitude.
Summarizing: the continuous actions of Belgrade of revert the independence will force some unavoidable reactions from Pristina (and this means of course that the serbian minority will pay the price of belgrade decision of try kosovo like a permanent rebelled province at be controlled at future with no date yet)
Simple and obvious, it is lamentable that all serbian voices that have no direct and total alignment with Belgrade be treated here and at serbian government like traitors at be silenced. Belgrade bet its coins on economic and diplomatic pressure for reduce Bosnia, Kosovo and perhaps Macedonia at near future at the status of serbian provinces and on this path the use of serbian minorities and the concept of multiethinic society for desestabilizes these countries is a all nothing game but Belgrade seems dont mind with serbian people but only with the milosevic's dream of a future great serbia.
It is in the interest of an independent Kosova to discourage anyone from living, especially Kosova’s Serbs. It is also in the interest of an independent Kosova to have all them who had left, return successfully.
This would make Kosova a functioning, multiethnic democracy.
Same thing can’t be said for Belgrade. They might not necessarily wont Serbs to leave but at the same time are conditioning the existence of the same Serbs to a life of isolation, non cooperation and hostility. If relations between two people remain tense, in a way would prove BG’s theme that Serbs cannot live along side of Albanians, thus a partition is needed. To make sure people stay in these conditions, BG pays them 150 Euros per month.
Paying people not to pack up and leave is a massive gamble that might backfire badly. So far this policy hasn’t stopped the steady flow of Serbs while the returns remain insignificant.
BG’s calculation might be that this is a short term measure to a short term solution.
Obviously this is not the case and it is time now they thought long term.
What Sonja Biserko is actually encouraging is the continuation of ethnic cleansing by isolation and applying pressure to the Serbian population in the enclaves along with the participation of the EU and NATO. They are all partners in crime as far as I'm concerned as re-integration didn't work in BiH and it wont work in KiM.
This is nothing surprising coming from this camp but the saddest thing of all is that this pretend "government" in Serbia is doing little or nothing to improve conditions for these people. It really is a shame and will only make matters worse when the tables are turned.
I am still unsure, what is your goal. You asked for a dialogue, as it was offered to you nothing happened. I can accept your words - but you constantly refuse to prove what you are saying. There is no discussion, only ex-cathedra and it is less efficient.
I stick to my words about Sonja Biserko: her words were contradicting each other within the same sentence. Most likely she tried to please her hosts. I have no problem to please my Albanian hosts - in the fact I did few days ago. I felt, he deserved.
I'm slightly perplexed as to why an organisation whose - admittedly self-imposed - brief is to monitor human rights issues is commenting on the constitutional status on Kosovo. Surely the multiple abuses of minority rights in the province should be of more interest to Ms Biserko. Or is this, shall we say, an obligation to her sponsors?
Do they have some more openings for easy jobs where people can sit in posh chair, attend parties and be paid for that plus saying things completely detached from the real life? I like that.
In an earlier posting I expressed the desire for the K-Serbs to start cooperation with K-Authorities. Sooner they do that the better for them. Peggy called me a "car dealer" then. The question to Peggy is: What is she going to call K-Serbs when they will be left with nothing! "Bad car buyers"? Mr. Biserko, simply speaks what her eyes see and she is no "car dealer".
(miri, 21 October 2008 18:03)
Miri, I know I am not liked by the Albanian camp on this site and I am not wanting to become liked, but at least stop with the lies. Why are you ganging up on me with lies? Debate what I say and please stay away from putting words in my mouth.
I have NEVER called you a car dealer. I challenge you to tell me when I did that. Perhaps someone else did and I certainly have not read that post, but I myself have never.
It is bad enough that Albanian posters here twist my words now you are inventing phrases that I have never used.
Sonja Biserko comes from a Croat communist family. The U.S. funds her group and others like it.
Some people mention that economics more than security is why people are leaving but fail to see how the lack of security is a main factor in the economic situation. For instance Serbs can't cultivate their lands due to attacks and threats by Albanians so they can't earn money this way. In addition their livestock, cattle and equipment has been stolen frequently by Albanians which causes a loss in the Serbian economic situation. As well you had Serbian businesses, looted, taken over and destroyed by Albanians. Plus you have the disruption of trade routes with Serbia and it being unsafe for Serbian Serbs to travel to the ski resort in Southern Kosovo which is run by the Serbs.
The Albanian violence and theft and restriction of movement for Serbs are the main factors in ruining the economic situation for Kosovo Serbs.
Sonia Biserko is one of the brightest and most progressive people in serbia, and in the balkans. we've met with her a number of times, and she is so amazing. i refuse to even honor the slanderous comments against her, except to say that at one time yugoslavia was a communist country, and speaking of "communist" families is completely meaningless, not to mention irrelevant. as for the croatian reference, well, that's just another cheap nationalist slur, among so many others.
as for whether her comments "make sense," with biserko, you really have to listen, whether in english or in serbo-croatian (as i call it.) she has an incredible intellect, and doesn't oversimplify her language simply so the masses (us) can "get" it quickly. she makes you think -- she makes you work.
but in person, she is quite warm and welcoming, and this is a lady who has endured quite a lot of nastiness, death threats, and god knows how many campaigns of lies and intimidation.
as for the content of her words, she seems to be one of the few people who really does care about the people of kosovo/a, ALL of the people, not just one ethnicity. the belgrade regime CLaims it cares for "its" people, but that is not the case, they are simply pawns for expansionist goals, as serbs throughout the former YU have long been and continue to be (think "Republika Srpska.") or, put another way, they "care" about "their" people when it is convenient, and when it ain't, goodbye charlie (goodbye predrag).
we cannot solve the situation of the kosovo/a serbs until we have peace in the balkans, and there will be no peace as long as the blgd regime keeps stiring up trouble. period.
god bless sonia biserko, and her colleagues, who remain dissident and defiant. you give hopoe to all of us, anywhere around the world.
Regardless, on what side of the fence anyone of us does sit, please read that sentence again and again:
"Kosovo independence is a reality in the region, although what that independence will look like and what will be involved in that independence is something that has still to be defined by the Kosovo state, the government and the international community, which has a huge role here, and of course, it depends on how Belgrade will behave too,” Biserko told an international conference in Priština."
I need a bottle of Skanderbeu or Slivovica (or both) to understand, what she wants to say. This is meaningless, a place-filler and the author of it did succeed to contradict several times in the same sentence.
Now, I really want that job! (And Skanderbeu with Slivovica).
If Biserko was truly concerned with the plight of the serbs in the enclaves, she should be addressing the root causes of the serb exodus from the enclaves - something about which the organisation she is a part of, claims as it's field of expertise - the abuse of human rights.
Should be pressing Thaci to co-operate with the people investigating the claims of 'organ-harvesting' & to expedite the arrest & prosecution of those who were behind of & took part in, the pogrom of 2004.
Until these issues are addressed, this 'low-level ethnic cleansing' will continue, & the chances of the far greater number of serb refugees in Serbia proper & elsewhere returning will remain minimal.
Who in the hell are this people,Serbian kids in Kosovo are going to school with armed guards and she`s talking about what.
She should visit those barbed wired enclaves before she makes another stupid comment.
In a way, Biserko is right. What future is there for a young Serb from Orahovac, Klina, or even Gracanica? These places run the risk of becoming little more than Serbian outposts that within a generation or two will simply cease to exist. If Tadic's compromise with the EU is to secure vital links to these regions where people both stay in the region and cultivate the region and stay in the region, there's going to have to be some cooperation with EULEX.
Migrations have less to do with ethnic intimidation than with economic availability. If Serbs gravitate towards BG or Kosovska Mitrovica, all that will be left are the monasteries. This is something that definitely needs to be addressed.
There is a lot of small and not-so-small "tit-for-tat". As I said, I did notice two during my short trip, not sure which is worse:
- a stupid booklet written in Russian about Banjska Monastery. What was written please let me omit. Who wrote it, was on 'shrooms.
- The Decani monastery sign being 90 degrees off (mentioned many times already), so drivers will miss it for sure. I did complain already twice here, no need to go in details the third time.
I can understand both, but both are 100% wrong. The second is a complete brain damage because precisely the Decani monks saved many Albanians during the tough times. Historically Decani was protected by certain Albanian tribesman, so I don't know who was that IQ-giant who did the sign turning.
To Village-Bey:
- agree with the first paragraph completely.
- do not agree about isolation. The Serbs in northern part are absolutely part of Serbia. Even more: there are numerous cars with "PS" and even "PR" on the road in Serbia. Once in Kosovo, they keep the license plates till the last gas station, than remove them and exchange to ones used in Albanian Kosovo. Why? What would happen with the car if it has Serb plates? This license plate circus has to be stopped. Even Bradt Kosovo book writes, cars with "BG" should not drive to Kosovo. Many Serbs and Albanians who do not want to be "confined" in southern part of Kosovo use more sophisticated tricks, you probably know all, but let me keep it for the time being.
- Kosovo Police is hiding precisely like their Serb colleagues. They use obviously the same tactics. I was curious (sorry) to see, what happens while driving over 10% over the speed limit. Nothing, of course. But I did notice, why they are there: they "hunt" for trucks having "BG" plates. Why? These trucks were already controlled, etc. at the border. I hardly can imagine, a car with "BG" plate would do anything risky in Kosovo. But no, they were stopped. While I wasn't. Hmmmmm.....
---------------------------------
Simple and obvious, it is lamentable that all serbian voices that have no direct and total alignment with Belgrade be treated here and at serbian government like traitors at be silenced.
(Paul Leguska, 21 October 2008 21:58)
Paul, can you please share that one with me? Never tried anything like that, but smoke&fly is better than drink&drive. Sorry to be sarcastic, but... how many times you happen to be in Belgrade?
Sonja Biserko comes from a Croat communist family.
(ida, 21 October 2008 23:59)
This is clearly Ukrainian, probably Rusyn family name, Ida. AFAIK, Rusyns live in Vojvodina. Or maybe she is related to some white-Army cossacks who escaped Russia around 1920. But than she is not likely to be a communist.
National origin does not count much. She may have agenda above her origin.
To Peggy: I have NEVER called you a car dealer. I challenge you to tell me when I did that. Perhaps someone else did and I certainly have not read that post, but I myself have never.
It is bad enough that Albanian posters here twist my words now you are inventing phrases that I have never used.
Are you that desperate to discredit me?
(Peggy, 21 October 2008 21:48)
Here it is Peggy:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=54131
Look for #4.
But that's besides the point. You can read any writing as you see fit. The reason that I brought it up it's not that I felt offended by you but to show that there are many people, like Mrs. Biserko that think just like me. K-Serbs have been following Belgrade like blind chickens and haven't had any courage to use their own rationale. The disaster is that any prominent K-Serbs that speaks reality and has any power (I think one of them is called Jovanovic if I am not mistaken), sooner or later will be sucked up in the "Milk Kosovo for money and power" type of Belgrade politics leaving his compatriots in the dry. And what I say is that K-Serbs are wasting time and opportunities with Belgrade. They should speak to K-Authorities to have their lives improved. Contrary to some baseless beliefs, K-Albanians are consolidating their position day by day. If K-Serbs continue to play "All or Nothing" game it is guaranteed they will end with nothing. If they want to secure their future existence they must change their tactics and embark a new strategy of cooperation and reconciliation. They know their K-Albanian neighbors better than Kostunica and Jeremic. They lived with each other for too long. If they refuse to see the truth K-Serbs will be doomed.
Read what Mrs. Biserko is saying.
Peggy, God forbid, I have no intention to discredit you. I have another life except writing here, you know!
I find it unspeakably disgusting of Biserko,who by the way is a Croat and her brother was killed as an Croatian soldier during the ethnic cleansing of Croatias Serb minority.
And now this person is somehow "concerned" about the Kosovo Serbs fate,trying to manipulate them politically,of course blaming Belgrade for it.GIVE ME A BREAK .
It is like blaming the Jewish concentration camp inmates for their dyry condition instead of blaming the nazi guards.
Very,very low...
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