Reaction to new Kosovo recognitions

Once again Russia is showing us how true friends behave. As for the rest, like some of our treacherous and treasonous neighbours, if I say what I really think I am sure B92 will not print it, so use your imaginations :).

It is time for Serbia to take some real actions, actions that have teeth. Trade sanctions on Montenegro, for instance. Let them buy their food from their beloved albanians and croats. Support for the Serbs inside Montenegro, including a referendum whether Serbian areas in Montenegro wish to stay with Milo, or with Serbia. This is just for starters.
As for FYROM, Serbia never should have recognized them with the name Macedonia in the first place. Macedonians are Greeks, we all know that. Withdraw recognition immediately. Also, support for the Serbs in Kumanovo who don't want to be a part of that state, which has no future.
Also, bring the military option back to the table. Kosovo will be defended, not just diplomatically, but by ALL MEANS, including militarily if need be. The West needs to hear this, and Russia will strongly back Serbia. Serbia needs to show it is serious about this issue. Any other country in the world would defend its territorial integrity by all means, this is not 'nationalistic', just normal.

Anyone who was unsure about the legality of UDI, here you have it.

All ex-Yugo republics have recognised Kosovo(a) UDI. This (among other things) overwrites any misinterpreted resolutions regarding the issue of legality.
Countries working against this are the ones interested only in destabilising the region. As always of course.

"The U.S. has expressed its support for Montenegro and Macedonia’s recognition of Kosovo"

1) To my knowledge, the true support for Montenegro comes from Serbia and Russia in form of millions of vacationeers. There are motels in Serbia build exclusively to support Russian motorists driving to CG. For instance, "Motel Bosna" after Gornji Milanovac is such establishment. Who knows the area, can confirm.

2) To my knowledge the bridge/tunnel over Bering Strait wasn't built yet. The cost of that, including the supporting infrastructure is significantly less, than what was "invested" in Iraq. In the fact, Iraq war did cost roughly the same, what would establishing of self-supporting Mars colony cost. In any case, the tsunami of American motorists won't arrive to Montenegro to "bail out" the potential loss next Summer. The only American license plates belong to few expats and, increasingly(!!!) to immigrants coming home.

3) U.S. will support U.S. in the close future. We need that badly. Whatever bush and his people promise is valid just till February 2009. The Summer season won't even begin.


This Summer it was a scandal between Montenegro and Serbia because Montenegrin customs begun to confiscate Serbian food. The reason they did was the loss Montenegrins suffered because the food there costs more than in Serbia and who came from Serbia had food in the car.

Now imagine, not just food won't be bought, simply the traffic will drop, say, 20-30% (or more!). This spells disaster.

More math.

The lifeline of Montenegro is the Beograd-Bar railway. There, everything depends on Serb Railway. There are daily 5 trains in the Summer, that means usually 300-500 people/train, it's, say, 2000 incoming tourist/day, ca. 250000 / season.

Each spending a measly 500 Euro, this is a "measly" 120 000 000 Euro or $170 000 000

In the critical situation (railway shut down for "repair" on Serbian site till Godot comes) USA should fork out $170 million to bail out Montenegro.

Same time the infrastructure, prices, professionalism is by a magnitude better in Greece or Turkey. Russians and Serbs do not need visa to Turkey - only tourist "fee" of ca. $20-$30 for a stamp into passport at the border. Greece provides yearly tens of thousand special visas for vacation, not "Schengen-visas". So Montenegro has a tough competition and Serbs don't even need to travel through Macedonia to reach Greece or Turkey by car. This year there already was a problem (see food scandal). Next year won't be better probably. The economy of Montenegro will be hurt seriously. And they have no "plan B".

-Serbs, do not give up your country!!

I would like to remind my Russian friend that Serbs aren't giving away nothing of what they should consider their country, absolutely no single part of it.

If this gentlemen is so courageous, why don't tell us any Russian successful move to stoop all these international initiatives with regard to Kosovo for lets say last 20 years?!

Nicely said Dragan. First we need to remove this sell-out government who I believe are following the same agenda as set by our enemies.

Kostunica was right once again with his stance to immediately sue each and every state that recognised Kosovo. If Tadic hadn't stopped that action, we wouldn't be in this situation and I wouldn't expect to see half of those countries on the recognition list.

It just delays the inevitable and gives the Albanians further false hope.

zorank@email.com

This is news? Did anyone really expect the US not to react positively?

And to BH_NYC, I suggest you check your facts better. Bosnia-Herzegovina has not recognized Kosovo's declaration of independence. And you may further be surprised to learn that the rest of the former republics may have other reasons for recognizing Kosovo than just that they agree it is legal and proper.

@Mr.Ataman
Montenegro has receveid the right assurances...Milo has been in all European capitals before the recognition..Money from Eu -investments from Eu countries - a speedy access to Eu membership he knows what to do..Maybe he is a cigarette smuggler but he is a smart guy ...

To Dragan,

Also, support for the Serbs in Kumanovo who don't want to be a part of that state, which has no future.
Also, bring the military option back to the table. Kosovo will be defended, not just diplomatically, but by ALL MEANS, including militarily if need be.


What military?
Even slovenians beat ex yougoslav army, trust me I was there, lets not even talk about Croatians, NATO no need to even mention...

All of the ex Yugo countries are banking on one thing,continued USA Aid. This aid and backing will be drying up very soon. Let me guess what plan B might be for them? ICJ in faver of Serbia, Russia/Serbia continued economic partnership, and the rest will gravitate back to Serbia. Serbia will in the end be calling the shoots.

A quick summary of the legal understanding as expressed by a commenter above on Kosovo UDI:

"My goat recognizes Kosovo's independence, therefore it is legal".

To quote a great Azra song, "Daleko si ti od istine". Duh!

Ataman,

You would have been excellent in the propaganda apparatus in the ex-URSS, East Germany or any other former communist country. You know how to distort the truth and how to scare people. You have only one problem. You don't realize that people reading you comments are not cut-off from information sources but well informed.
The truth is that Montenegro wanted to limit the number of cheap, poor Serbian tourists, who bring in there own food (part of it canned food a la Eastern-European)and spend very little in Montenegro. That small country wants to cater to rich Western tourists, who bring in as much or more money than 80-90 % of all tourists (majority Serbs). For this reason your "math" does not hold water. I don't think you will have success by trying to scare those brave people of Montenegro. They have their math too.

To BH_NYC:

Bosnia hasn't recognised Kosovo. So clearly not all of the former Yugoslav republics have recognised Kosovo. RS will not allow that. Furthermore, once the census is redone in Bosnia, we'll find that the Serbs are the dominant group. Hmmm....then we'll see some interesting developments!

"All ex-Yugo republics have recognised Kosovo(a) UDI. This (among other things) overwrites any misinterpreted resolutions regarding the issue of legality.
Countries working against this are the ones interested only in destabilising the region. As always of course.
(BH_NYC, 10 October 2008 11:41)"

How about your "friends" in the fake state Bosnia and Herzegovina (like "Kosova")? If they (the muslim part) say yes their country will be on the chopping block very quickly (RS will abandon ship quickly). UNSC 1244 is still valid as far as the UNSC is concerned. The US and the EU have been interested in destablizing the region since Germany got unified.

Anyone who was unsure about the legality of UDI, here you have it. All ex-Yugo republics have recognised Kosovo(a) UDI. This (among other things) overwrites any misinterpreted resolutions regarding the issue of legality.
(BH_NYC, 10 October 2008 11:41)
--
Seeing that your flawed argument has no merit, the legal case for Serbia is very strong indeed.

Also, out of the 6 former YU republics, we still have Serbia (the biggest) and BiH not recognising this illegal puppet entity.

You'll need to try a little harder next time.

Joe,

The phrases like "trying to scare those brave people of Montenegro" are somewhat hypocritical. Instead of facts, you post few bombastic sentences without backing any of your claims - while accusing me of "ex-URSS" (sorry, should be: USSR) propaganda. I have no doubt, Montenegro has no shortage of brave souls, so has Albania, Kosovo, Serbia. It is not about that.

I happen to frequently visit in disguise train stations to take pictures of the rolling stock.
Please take a look at few I made this Summer. I usually host them on "imageshack", so people can see. What we see here is a typical night train between Belgrade and Bar, just after it's arrival.

http://tinyurl.com/4cnepn
http://tinyurl.com/4anq9t
http://tinyurl.com/3zh77h
http://tinyurl.com/3vptdw

To the first picture: Serbs have an interesting habit to load their cars on the train, than take the train to the seaside. What you see here is such a train. It has 5 vehicle-carry cars behind the "real thing". With your claim about "cheap, poor Serbian tourists", there wouldn't be a market for such trains. It is even a shortage and sometimes people have to wait several days - precisely like with Amtrak's "auto-train" just to get on.

To the second picture: The Serbian train (as on the first) is in the front. Please note, it has ZS sleepers right after the "vehicle-cars" and the first sleeper is an "additional car" - added because the demand was so high, later about that. You also see a ZCG (Montenegrin) train in the background, they have second-hand French economy sleepers ("couchettes").

To the third picture: The "exotic" WLBi Serbian sleeper, which normally, under regular demand shouldn't be there. It's there because the demand was to big. It's EXOTIC, because it is from "Plavi Voz", Tito's train!

To the fourth picture: This is how the vehicle-carry car looks inside. I did load my car into a similar thing this Summer, it's a challenge for us, poorly-trained "Yanks" to operate our big cars inside of that, but somehow I managed not to do anything what I would regret. You see the Montenegrin train in the background.

My math is based on my observations, Joe, and also seing the large crowds for the tickets. If you have other numbers, please tell us.

A long essay, what it takes and how take your car by train is also found on the Serbian Rail website - unfortunately in Serbian only, nothing in English. It contradicts with your theory about poor Serbian tourists "unwanted" in Montenegro. The automobile info is under "PREVOZ PRAĆENIH AUTOMOBILA".

http://tinyurl.com/2ngzmz

The countries, where such cars are going - as you see are "(između) Srbije i Grčke" and "(između) Srbije i Crne Gore"

My assumptions , there will be more "između Srbije i Grčke" in the future and it will hurt "Crna Gora".

-------------------

Regarding Russia all I need to show is a web site:

http://www.rtours.ru

Please note the slogan of Crna Gora for Russians:

"Отдыхайте там, где вас любят" = "take the vacation, where they /locals/ do like you so much".

That says all, Joe, it's called "begging".

As you serbs know Macedonian guvermant had to recognise KOsovo, but i would like to remind you that we Macedonians also remember;



2. 1992 - scheschell for MACEDONIA we need only two division to ocupied them they are juzhnisrbijanci

3. 1992 - till today Macedonian church its not recognised from Srbija

@Mr.Ataman
Montenegro has receveid the right assurances...Milo has been in all European capitals before the recognition..Money from Eu -investments from Eu countries - a speedy access to Eu membership he knows what to do..Maybe he is a cigarette smuggler but he is a smart guy ...
(Luigi, 10 October 2008 13:55)

Croatia has a much more solid economy than anything else, probably even including Hungary - but where is it right now? Montenegro hopefully can go relatively fast on the "white list" and probably that's it for the time being, not until 2015 in my opinion. Same applies to Serbia Proper. The local little "North Cyprus" and Albania will wait an other 5-10 years. Who wants to buy a trouble with illegal guns all over the place and mafia all over the government?

BTW: the tourist season in 2009 can look different than anything else since the sanctions.

Ataman,

By showing me few railroad cars you can not convince me that soudainly Serbs became Europe's big spenders. In every ex-communist country the top 10% travels a lot not only in Europe but all over the world. I know a good number of Hungarians in that group. That 10% exists in Serbia too. Those take their cars to Montenegro on train. No big deal. I don't think it is so expensive (in the US however to send a car from New York State to California is 2,285 dollars). What I read this summer somewhere - and I forgot where, otherewise I would upload it to you - is that Montenegro wants an image change. Intead of being a mass-tourism destination of poor, low-spending Serbs, the big majority driving their cares and bringing their own food, they want to cater to rich Western tourists, who spend big money. And I don't blame them. To cut the flow of those poor tourists they checked the tranks and confiscated a lot of food forcing them to shorten their stay. With Russians it is a different story. Because of the oil money they became big spenders, rich tourists all over Europe. They are considered very loud and arrogant but many countries, including Austria do not mind because they have the money.

Serbia has to RE-THINK in joining the EU since We all know that Montenegro and Macedonia were heavily pressured by the US & the big EU States. This "blackmailing" of the WEST has forced them to make this unwise decision.

The point is the WEST wants a FRAGMENTED Serbia so that they will have a ultimate control over the balkans for decades to come.

Ataman,

You are absolutely correct. 2,285 dollars is much too much and it is an estimate given to me 2 days ago. I know that I will be able to do much better. To be more precise the car, a collector's item, a Jaguar is not drivable. Has to be picked up at my place, what add to the cost. It sits in the garage for the last 2-3 years. In my area the repear is terribly expensive and there are just 1-2 far places to repear Jaguars. In San Diego my son knows foreigners who are great mechanics and and cheap.
But it is 10 PM for you and maybe you will not see this post.

By showing me few railroad cars you can not convince me that soudainly Serbs became Europe's big spenders. In every ex-communist country the top 10% travels a lot not only in Europe but all over the world. I know a good number of Hungarians in that group. That 10% exists in Serbia too. Those take their cars to Montenegro on train.
(Joe, 11 October 2008 02:36)

Joe, I think it is not correct - do you think that new, but tiny Renault station wagon and older (Dodge(?) Citroen(?) - guys help me out) sedan on the picture belong to Miskovic?

What you see here is the procedure of the loading the cars on the Belgrade-Bar train in Belgrade.

http://tinyurl.com/3m8jhw

I have to tell the truth, I was a bit mean because I expected you to write what you did and it's why I did not post all the pictures immediately. ;)

Joe,

Miskovic goes to Zanzibar, not to Bar. Or maybe to Bariloche in Argentina. Who knows?

-------------

In the US however to send a car from New York State to California is 2,285 dollars.
(Joe, 11 October 2008 02:36)

Joe, are you serious? We paid less ($1500-$1700 plus port fees) to ship the cars from Oakland to Europe. Please look at your posts under http://tinyurl.com/4vhenc with all your mocking about "sea-transport experience" versus my post #19.

If you need help I can help you ASAP how to spend less. You need to call major lines like "Evergreen", "Hapag-LLoyd" and ask them, who is their agent. Than call the agent. I cannot guarantee, it will be the BEST price, but it will be within plus/minis $150. We essentially landed up using Interfracht, but for you it will be different. I guess, you sent your car by truck, not in container, right?

-------------

What I read this summer somewhere - and I forgot where, otherewise I would upload it to you - is that Montenegro wants an image change. Intead of being a mass-tourism destination of poor, low-spending Serbs, the big majority driving their cares and bringing their own food, they want to cater to rich Western tourists, who spend big money.
(Joe, 11 October 2008 02:36)

The first part is correct, but the food confiscation was to force Serbs to spend more. Albanians, FYROMians and Kosovars were affected to the same degree. This is true, the majority of people from ex-YU are not big spenders. They know the math tough and even many Albanians from AL and KosMet prefer to travel to Greece: prices and service are better than in Montenegro.

-------------

With Russians it is a different story. Because of the oil money they became big spenders, rich tourists all over Europe.
(Joe, 11 October 2008 02:36)

This is incorrect. Who can afford are indeed big spenders. Many travel humble way. Russians are known to have big issues with languages and many older are not brave to travel alone. The language is perhaps the main reason why the "invade" Croatia and Montenegro. The ones who prefer to stay in group rather go to Turkey. The bigger spenders like Thailand.

-------------

They are considered very loud and arrogant
(Joe, 11 October 2008 02:36)

Being arrogant and loud is of course always a special "privilege" of new-rich and they have no shortage of such.

Anyone who was unsure about the legality of UDI, here you have it.

All ex-Yugo republics have recognised Kosovo(a) UDI. This (among other things) overwrites any misinterpreted resolutions regarding the issue of legality.
Countries working against this are the ones interested only in destabilising the region. As always of course.

"The U.S. has expressed its support for Montenegro and Macedonia’s recognition of Kosovo"

1) To my knowledge, the true support for Montenegro comes from Serbia and Russia in form of millions of vacationeers. There are motels in Serbia build exclusively to support Russian motorists driving to CG. For instance, "Motel Bosna" after Gornji Milanovac is such establishment. Who knows the area, can confirm.

2) To my knowledge the bridge/tunnel over Bering Strait wasn't built yet. The cost of that, including the supporting infrastructure is significantly less, than what was "invested" in Iraq. In the fact, Iraq war did cost roughly the same, what would establishing of self-supporting Mars colony cost. In any case, the tsunami of American motorists won't arrive to Montenegro to "bail out" the potential loss next Summer. The only American license plates belong to few expats and, increasingly(!!!) to immigrants coming home.

3) U.S. will support U.S. in the close future. We need that badly. Whatever bush and his people promise is valid just till February 2009. The Summer season won't even begin.


This Summer it was a scandal between Montenegro and Serbia because Montenegrin customs begun to confiscate Serbian food. The reason they did was the loss Montenegrins suffered because the food there costs more than in Serbia and who came from Serbia had food in the car.

Now imagine, not just food won't be bought, simply the traffic will drop, say, 20-30% (or more!). This spells disaster.

More math.

The lifeline of Montenegro is the Beograd-Bar railway. There, everything depends on Serb Railway. There are daily 5 trains in the Summer, that means usually 300-500 people/train, it's, say, 2000 incoming tourist/day, ca. 250000 / season.

Each spending a measly 500 Euro, this is a "measly" 120 000 000 Euro or $170 000 000

In the critical situation (railway shut down for "repair" on Serbian site till Godot comes) USA should fork out $170 million to bail out Montenegro.

Same time the infrastructure, prices, professionalism is by a magnitude better in Greece or Turkey. Russians and Serbs do not need visa to Turkey - only tourist "fee" of ca. $20-$30 for a stamp into passport at the border. Greece provides yearly tens of thousand special visas for vacation, not "Schengen-visas". So Montenegro has a tough competition and Serbs don't even need to travel through Macedonia to reach Greece or Turkey by car. This year there already was a problem (see food scandal). Next year won't be better probably. The economy of Montenegro will be hurt seriously. And they have no "plan B".

Once again Russia is showing us how true friends behave. As for the rest, like some of our treacherous and treasonous neighbours, if I say what I really think I am sure B92 will not print it, so use your imaginations :).

It is time for Serbia to take some real actions, actions that have teeth. Trade sanctions on Montenegro, for instance. Let them buy their food from their beloved albanians and croats. Support for the Serbs inside Montenegro, including a referendum whether Serbian areas in Montenegro wish to stay with Milo, or with Serbia. This is just for starters.
As for FYROM, Serbia never should have recognized them with the name Macedonia in the first place. Macedonians are Greeks, we all know that. Withdraw recognition immediately. Also, support for the Serbs in Kumanovo who don't want to be a part of that state, which has no future.
Also, bring the military option back to the table. Kosovo will be defended, not just diplomatically, but by ALL MEANS, including militarily if need be. The West needs to hear this, and Russia will strongly back Serbia. Serbia needs to show it is serious about this issue. Any other country in the world would defend its territorial integrity by all means, this is not 'nationalistic', just normal.

-Serbs, do not give up your country!!

I would like to remind my Russian friend that Serbs aren't giving away nothing of what they should consider their country, absolutely no single part of it.

If this gentlemen is so courageous, why don't tell us any Russian successful move to stoop all these international initiatives with regard to Kosovo for lets say last 20 years?!

A quick summary of the legal understanding as expressed by a commenter above on Kosovo UDI:

"My goat recognizes Kosovo's independence, therefore it is legal".

To quote a great Azra song, "Daleko si ti od istine". Duh!

All of the ex Yugo countries are banking on one thing,continued USA Aid. This aid and backing will be drying up very soon. Let me guess what plan B might be for them? ICJ in faver of Serbia, Russia/Serbia continued economic partnership, and the rest will gravitate back to Serbia. Serbia will in the end be calling the shoots.

@Mr.Ataman
Montenegro has receveid the right assurances...Milo has been in all European capitals before the recognition..Money from Eu -investments from Eu countries - a speedy access to Eu membership he knows what to do..Maybe he is a cigarette smuggler but he is a smart guy ...

To Dragan,

Also, support for the Serbs in Kumanovo who don't want to be a part of that state, which has no future.
Also, bring the military option back to the table. Kosovo will be defended, not just diplomatically, but by ALL MEANS, including militarily if need be.


What military?
Even slovenians beat ex yougoslav army, trust me I was there, lets not even talk about Croatians, NATO no need to even mention...

Ataman,

You would have been excellent in the propaganda apparatus in the ex-URSS, East Germany or any other former communist country. You know how to distort the truth and how to scare people. You have only one problem. You don't realize that people reading you comments are not cut-off from information sources but well informed.
The truth is that Montenegro wanted to limit the number of cheap, poor Serbian tourists, who bring in there own food (part of it canned food a la Eastern-European)and spend very little in Montenegro. That small country wants to cater to rich Western tourists, who bring in as much or more money than 80-90 % of all tourists (majority Serbs). For this reason your "math" does not hold water. I don't think you will have success by trying to scare those brave people of Montenegro. They have their math too.

@Mr.Ataman
Montenegro has receveid the right assurances...Milo has been in all European capitals before the recognition..Money from Eu -investments from Eu countries - a speedy access to Eu membership he knows what to do..Maybe he is a cigarette smuggler but he is a smart guy ...
(Luigi, 10 October 2008 13:55)

Croatia has a much more solid economy than anything else, probably even including Hungary - but where is it right now? Montenegro hopefully can go relatively fast on the "white list" and probably that's it for the time being, not until 2015 in my opinion. Same applies to Serbia Proper. The local little "North Cyprus" and Albania will wait an other 5-10 years. Who wants to buy a trouble with illegal guns all over the place and mafia all over the government?

BTW: the tourist season in 2009 can look different than anything else since the sanctions.

Nicely said Dragan. First we need to remove this sell-out government who I believe are following the same agenda as set by our enemies.

Kostunica was right once again with his stance to immediately sue each and every state that recognised Kosovo. If Tadic hadn't stopped that action, we wouldn't be in this situation and I wouldn't expect to see half of those countries on the recognition list.

It just delays the inevitable and gives the Albanians further false hope.

zorank@email.com

To BH_NYC:

Bosnia hasn't recognised Kosovo. So clearly not all of the former Yugoslav republics have recognised Kosovo. RS will not allow that. Furthermore, once the census is redone in Bosnia, we'll find that the Serbs are the dominant group. Hmmm....then we'll see some interesting developments!

"All ex-Yugo republics have recognised Kosovo(a) UDI. This (among other things) overwrites any misinterpreted resolutions regarding the issue of legality.
Countries working against this are the ones interested only in destabilising the region. As always of course.
(BH_NYC, 10 October 2008 11:41)"

How about your "friends" in the fake state Bosnia and Herzegovina (like "Kosova")? If they (the muslim part) say yes their country will be on the chopping block very quickly (RS will abandon ship quickly). UNSC 1244 is still valid as far as the UNSC is concerned. The US and the EU have been interested in destablizing the region since Germany got unified.

Anyone who was unsure about the legality of UDI, here you have it. All ex-Yugo republics have recognised Kosovo(a) UDI. This (among other things) overwrites any misinterpreted resolutions regarding the issue of legality.
(BH_NYC, 10 October 2008 11:41)
--
Seeing that your flawed argument has no merit, the legal case for Serbia is very strong indeed.

Also, out of the 6 former YU republics, we still have Serbia (the biggest) and BiH not recognising this illegal puppet entity.

You'll need to try a little harder next time.

As you serbs know Macedonian guvermant had to recognise KOsovo, but i would like to remind you that we Macedonians also remember;



2. 1992 - scheschell for MACEDONIA we need only two division to ocupied them they are juzhnisrbijanci

3. 1992 - till today Macedonian church its not recognised from Srbija

Ataman,

By showing me few railroad cars you can not convince me that soudainly Serbs became Europe's big spenders. In every ex-communist country the top 10% travels a lot not only in Europe but all over the world. I know a good number of Hungarians in that group. That 10% exists in Serbia too. Those take their cars to Montenegro on train. No big deal. I don't think it is so expensive (in the US however to send a car from New York State to California is 2,285 dollars). What I read this summer somewhere - and I forgot where, otherewise I would upload it to you - is that Montenegro wants an image change. Intead of being a mass-tourism destination of poor, low-spending Serbs, the big majority driving their cares and bringing their own food, they want to cater to rich Western tourists, who spend big money. And I don't blame them. To cut the flow of those poor tourists they checked the tranks and confiscated a lot of food forcing them to shorten their stay. With Russians it is a different story. Because of the oil money they became big spenders, rich tourists all over Europe. They are considered very loud and arrogant but many countries, including Austria do not mind because they have the money.

This is news? Did anyone really expect the US not to react positively?

And to BH_NYC, I suggest you check your facts better. Bosnia-Herzegovina has not recognized Kosovo's declaration of independence. And you may further be surprised to learn that the rest of the former republics may have other reasons for recognizing Kosovo than just that they agree it is legal and proper.

Joe,

The phrases like "trying to scare those brave people of Montenegro" are somewhat hypocritical. Instead of facts, you post few bombastic sentences without backing any of your claims - while accusing me of "ex-URSS" (sorry, should be: USSR) propaganda. I have no doubt, Montenegro has no shortage of brave souls, so has Albania, Kosovo, Serbia. It is not about that.

I happen to frequently visit in disguise train stations to take pictures of the rolling stock.
Please take a look at few I made this Summer. I usually host them on "imageshack", so people can see. What we see here is a typical night train between Belgrade and Bar, just after it's arrival.

http://tinyurl.com/4cnepn
http://tinyurl.com/4anq9t
http://tinyurl.com/3zh77h
http://tinyurl.com/3vptdw

To the first picture: Serbs have an interesting habit to load their cars on the train, than take the train to the seaside. What you see here is such a train. It has 5 vehicle-carry cars behind the "real thing". With your claim about "cheap, poor Serbian tourists", there wouldn't be a market for such trains. It is even a shortage and sometimes people have to wait several days - precisely like with Amtrak's "auto-train" just to get on.

To the second picture: The Serbian train (as on the first) is in the front. Please note, it has ZS sleepers right after the "vehicle-cars" and the first sleeper is an "additional car" - added because the demand was so high, later about that. You also see a ZCG (Montenegrin) train in the background, they have second-hand French economy sleepers ("couchettes").

To the third picture: The "exotic" WLBi Serbian sleeper, which normally, under regular demand shouldn't be there. It's there because the demand was to big. It's EXOTIC, because it is from "Plavi Voz", Tito's train!

To the fourth picture: This is how the vehicle-carry car looks inside. I did load my car into a similar thing this Summer, it's a challenge for us, poorly-trained "Yanks" to operate our big cars inside of that, but somehow I managed not to do anything what I would regret. You see the Montenegrin train in the background.

My math is based on my observations, Joe, and also seing the large crowds for the tickets. If you have other numbers, please tell us.

A long essay, what it takes and how take your car by train is also found on the Serbian Rail website - unfortunately in Serbian only, nothing in English. It contradicts with your theory about poor Serbian tourists "unwanted" in Montenegro. The automobile info is under "PREVOZ PRAĆENIH AUTOMOBILA".

http://tinyurl.com/2ngzmz

The countries, where such cars are going - as you see are "(između) Srbije i Grčke" and "(između) Srbije i Crne Gore"

My assumptions , there will be more "između Srbije i Grčke" in the future and it will hurt "Crna Gora".

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Regarding Russia all I need to show is a web site:

http://www.rtours.ru

Please note the slogan of Crna Gora for Russians:

"Отдыхайте там, где вас любят" = "take the vacation, where they /locals/ do like you so much".

That says all, Joe, it's called "begging".

Serbia has to RE-THINK in joining the EU since We all know that Montenegro and Macedonia were heavily pressured by the US & the big EU States. This "blackmailing" of the WEST has forced them to make this unwise decision.

The point is the WEST wants a FRAGMENTED Serbia so that they will have a ultimate control over the balkans for decades to come.

By showing me few railroad cars you can not convince me that soudainly Serbs became Europe's big spenders. In every ex-communist country the top 10% travels a lot not only in Europe but all over the world. I know a good number of Hungarians in that group. That 10% exists in Serbia too. Those take their cars to Montenegro on train.
(Joe, 11 October 2008 02:36)

Joe, I think it is not correct - do you think that new, but tiny Renault station wagon and older (Dodge(?) Citroen(?) - guys help me out) sedan on the picture belong to Miskovic?

What you see here is the procedure of the loading the cars on the Belgrade-Bar train in Belgrade.

http://tinyurl.com/3m8jhw

I have to tell the truth, I was a bit mean because I expected you to write what you did and it's why I did not post all the pictures immediately. ;)

Joe,

Miskovic goes to Zanzibar, not to Bar. Or maybe to Bariloche in Argentina. Who knows?

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In the US however to send a car from New York State to California is 2,285 dollars.
(Joe, 11 October 2008 02:36)

Joe, are you serious? We paid less ($1500-$1700 plus port fees) to ship the cars from Oakland to Europe. Please look at your posts under http://tinyurl.com/4vhenc with all your mocking about "sea-transport experience" versus my post #19.

If you need help I can help you ASAP how to spend less. You need to call major lines like "Evergreen", "Hapag-LLoyd" and ask them, who is their agent. Than call the agent. I cannot guarantee, it will be the BEST price, but it will be within plus/minis $150. We essentially landed up using Interfracht, but for you it will be different. I guess, you sent your car by truck, not in container, right?

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What I read this summer somewhere - and I forgot where, otherewise I would upload it to you - is that Montenegro wants an image change. Intead of being a mass-tourism destination of poor, low-spending Serbs, the big majority driving their cares and bringing their own food, they want to cater to rich Western tourists, who spend big money.
(Joe, 11 October 2008 02:36)

The first part is correct, but the food confiscation was to force Serbs to spend more. Albanians, FYROMians and Kosovars were affected to the same degree. This is true, the majority of people from ex-YU are not big spenders. They know the math tough and even many Albanians from AL and KosMet prefer to travel to Greece: prices and service are better than in Montenegro.

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With Russians it is a different story. Because of the oil money they became big spenders, rich tourists all over Europe.
(Joe, 11 October 2008 02:36)

This is incorrect. Who can afford are indeed big spenders. Many travel humble way. Russians are known to have big issues with languages and many older are not brave to travel alone. The language is perhaps the main reason why the "invade" Croatia and Montenegro. The ones who prefer to stay in group rather go to Turkey. The bigger spenders like Thailand.

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They are considered very loud and arrogant
(Joe, 11 October 2008 02:36)

Being arrogant and loud is of course always a special "privilege" of new-rich and they have no shortage of such.

Ataman,

You are absolutely correct. 2,285 dollars is much too much and it is an estimate given to me 2 days ago. I know that I will be able to do much better. To be more precise the car, a collector's item, a Jaguar is not drivable. Has to be picked up at my place, what add to the cost. It sits in the garage for the last 2-3 years. In my area the repear is terribly expensive and there are just 1-2 far places to repear Jaguars. In San Diego my son knows foreigners who are great mechanics and and cheap.
But it is 10 PM for you and maybe you will not see this post.