Macedonian ambassador expelled too

Well here is the way I see it....

Montenegro and Macedonia have calculated that the pitfalls of recognition of Kosovo (ie Serbian reaction) do not outweigh the benefits of Kosovo recognition (US, Albanian pressure).

This means that both states fundamentally believe that negative relations with Serbia will last a short time and will not consist of measures likely to affect / hurt citizens of Montenegro / Macedonia very much.

Now, if this is not the case and Serbia takes more extreme measures and if relations are affected over a long period, according to diplomatic theory, Montenegro / Macedonia will have miscalculated and they will bear partial / equal responsibility for the end result of their prior action.

If on the other hand Serbia does not (over)react it will show that Montenegrin / Macedonian calculation was correct and 'diplomacy' was successful. Lets see what happens.

What do I think? My views are known, but I must admit to being angered by the Montenegrin decision. The timing is particularly cowardly and is obviously connected with Serbian success at the UN.

Personally I would be less angry if this recognition had come either before or some weeks after the UN ICJ event. My own view is that both countries should have maintained a neutral position on the issue.

To do it on the same day not only smells of callousness, but provokes anger within more people. That will not help Serbs, Macedonians or Montenegrins, so congratulations for that guys... Perhaps I am petty but I will search for alternative items of food and other imports wherever possible.

You know I also find it fantastic how long Montenegrins had influence on Yugoslav / Serbian state (hardline) policy on Kosovo and now this...

Well I presume that Macedonia will not have a problem when Albanians in their country try to break away half of their land and delcare independence!

What is happening in our world? A country, Serbia, has 2o% of its territory violently stolen from itself. This theft is commited by known terroists who now call themselves a legimate state!! What has happened to world order, international law?? All this is very worrying for the future. States stealing land off each other. This leads to internal terrorism (Isreal, Northern Ireland).

This world is finished. Lets all look forward to international anarchy!!!

Ps. Shame on you Montenegro. This is the death nail of that special, historic link between yourselves and Serbia!!

So Montenegro and Macedonia have recognised Kosovo as independent.

Maybe now is the time for the Serbian government to encourage all CG and MK passport holders to return back to their own countries to encourage their governments to think again.

It would certainly make Belgrade streets alot safer with no 'MNE' plated cars on the street and half of the drug pushers and mafiosi removed!

“isn’t a clever or good political move” - Vojvodić.

Vojvodić must mean her own regimes illegal decision which will in time be corected!

This comes as no surprise at all. There is a large Albanian population in Macedonia and the current Montenegrin leadership is hardly know for its 'integrity'.

No shock here, but sad for the Serbian and Montenegrin people.

This is nothing but an American project. They used aggression and blackmail to achieve it. Shame!

What kind of a government is this in powere in Serbia, who let's albanians come into Serbia from KiM to issue them Serbian documents? They give passports to albans who don't recognise KiM as Serbia. Shame!

ZK BG,
Drink some Serbian wine, it's really quite good. Vrsac has become quite the wine haven. Or, some Spanish Rioja, which I also really like.
smile,
Excellent post, I could not agree more. This is a government which Serbian voters did not ask for, but through bribes from outsiders was imposed on Serbia. They sent back some ambassadors yesterday at the same time they expelled a couple of them - which tells you all you need to know about who is pulling their strings. However, Serbian voters are not stupid and will throw them out I'm sure, unless they take some measures that actually have teeth, and actually defend the national interests of Serbia.
Let's not forget who we are as a people, and where we come from. Montenegro has sold its soul to the devil, and they will now live with this shame forever. Keep up the good fight, to all Serbs. We will prevail.
Cheers!!

you gotta feel for this ds mob in power, they would be fine with macedonia and montnegro, europe's nauru and micronesia, btw :) to recognize the abomination, but only if they gave them a month to milk the propaganda icj cow at home. aw. stern indeed :)
anyway this is all mind games and desperation from both sides. and clearly by that i dont mean albanians, they have no role in this. the situation is getting messier and more complicated with every day. the only really interesting question is what mr. munter said the other day. and i believe he told the whole truth and nothing but. this young ds apparatchik mr jeremic promised him eulex will deploy in all of kosovo. and since mr munter remains un-expelled i take it he was telling the truth. i know that the eu didn't work so hard to instate their own government in serbia for nothing, obviously they expect results. aiding and abetting eulex is tantamount to recognition and encouragement of exodus of serbs from kosovo. so that is very serious. and that is the real issue, not what unstable and very likely unsustainable entities like montenegro and macedonia are forced into doing or not doing.
word to the wise though. the ruling collusion DID NOT receive majority in the elections, because some parties that joined this collusion tricked their voters. this is a government forced on this country from the outside. owners of this government will blackmail it with kosovo or withdraw the money. we will celebrate its downfall sooner rather than later.

As a Macedonian from the Tetovo region who lives in the States, I am just mortified that the Macedonians did this. I knew it was coming but that doesn't make it easier. This pretty much means they have thrown those Macedonians/Serbs under the bus there. But I've always known that the Skopje-types and the rest of the country never liked us from Tetovo and Kumanovo because they see us as Serbs (which, most of us either came from Kosovo, like my family did,or Serbia). They plan to swap Tetovo/Gostivar for the entire Lake Ohrid region with Albania. I know it sounds like paranoia, but it's coming from both camps.

I just hate the fact that this was done in spite and the Macedonian government will eventually pay for this in some way down the line (loss of teritory, more Albanian-language issues, etc.) Shameful! All done out of spite!

This is huge. Let no one tell you otherwise. Regardless of dismissive attitude of the other camp, this move has massive significance not because the specific weight of these two countries, or for particular circumstances of these recognitions. Macedonia and Montenegro, together with Albania complete the fist circle of immediate neighbours that have recognised Kosova’s independence. The first circle logically excludes Serbia, but no one is expecting Serbia to recognise this early. As old theory of circles goes, the first circle is the most important as establishes at the core of the acknowledgment, regional stability, knowledge and interest. It would also give an insight to prospective countries considering a stance on the issue. So anyone thinking about it would look firstly look at the regional picture and realise that those who have a vital interest in the region, by the mere fact of living there, have recognised, therefore so should we.
Second circle is almost complete as Greece too is expected to recognise fairly soon, while Romania has accepted Kosovar passports.
So Mr Jeremic is somehow outmanoeuvred when he says “Countries that have not thus far recognized Kosovo, now, after the ICJ has begun to consider that issue, have absolutely no reason to do so, other than to prejudice the court’s final verdict.” The focus is all wrong here. Firstly he is looking out for reasons and answers and for those you don’t need a foreign ministry but a fortune-teller with a crystal ball. Secondly he has started his country’s defence from the outer ring. It well and good talking to Panama and Indonesia but what do they know about Balkans. It is like starting a meal with the pudding, moving to the main course and then the starter. It is all wrong.

It was fairly obvious this time was coming based on the press releases of these so-called representatives but I am certain this is only a temporary situation while my commiserations go out to the citizens when their freedom and soul are sold so easily.

As can be seen by the co-ordination of everything, this Serbian government with its toothless ICJ initiative are all working according to the same agenda, which has already set out by their masters.

However, looking at the financial meltdown in the world with the balance of power shifting rapidly to the East, all eyes are on the Ukrainian election which should start the ball rolling.

Now I have to find another wine to replace the Montenegrin one I tend to drink. Recommendations anyone?

smile, its always a Serb to blame, even when its clearly somebody elses fault....

And if in doubt, change the subject to make sure that a Serb is to blame :)

As far as SPS was concerned, it was only the easily fooled (ie yourself) who didn't believe that this party could go with the DS coalition. You were absolutely certain it wouldn't happen....

You must be equally certain that if your SPS / SRS / DSS came to power it would not have collapsed under Dacic /Nikolic / Seselj / Kostunica disagreements and that they would have saved Kosovo!

Poor us for not having that government in charge! And poor you for really believing that :)

ZK as you might have noticed there are some poor domestic wines on sale at supermarkets, so people have a tendancy to go with Vranac, but I ain't touching the stuff anymore.

Anyway, my advice is to go to a small scale producer of domestic wine, there are a few of these types of shops in BG the price is reasonable and the wine is quite good - plus you get the added benefit of knowing that a hefty percentage isn't going into some Miskovic's pocket, but to the producers.

There was one shop that had a good website, try doing a google to find it. I've been there a few times, can't remember the name of the street...

And watch what jarred veg or spices (like feferoni)you buy also, quite a bit of the stock is from Macedonia, even though there are perfectly good alternative Serbian products.

Oh and watch out for foreign wines as well. They treat the Serbian market as a place to dispose of their lesser wines, plus some of that wine has been sitting in the shop for so long with extreme changes of temp changes...

I do urge all those living in Serbia to conduct their own mini boycott though, for the time being at least. Macedonia and Montenegro must understand how bad decisions will affect them adversely. They were warned about this.

It is not just up to the government to increse retoric and cheap talk, people have to take action too.

If CG and MK are interested in promoting peace and stability in the region and in building up Kosovo to be the next multiethnic Vojvodina, I fully expect them to fall into line if and when an ICJ ruling makes additional recommendations on Kosovo's future. If the internal dynamics of Kosovo shift to accomodate more rights and political privileges for K-Serbs, I expect both countries - in the same of stability - to support it.

Forgive me for being so pessimistic, but I don't see "multiethnic coexistence" being a reality in Kosovo for at least two to three generations.

I did thank Montenegro,and fyro-Macedonia in advance yesterday,for making it number 50.I like to thank this two independent country's again for recognising another independent country(Kosova).Thanks heaps, and peace between all of us.

Interesting,
"A statement published on the Montenegrin government’s website states that the two countries support the building of democratic institutions in Kosovo, with a view to building a multi-ethnic society where the rights of all ethnic communities and their cultural, religious and lingual identity will be guaranteed."
The above, to me, just described what Yugoslavia was all about!! How stupid do these politicians think we are? All these independence movements have been driven by selfish means, with the backing of the U.S. How can we rely on these pseudo-nations to guarantee minority rights when there were no guarantees for minority rights when they were recognized? How safe would you feel if you were a Serb living in Kosovo prior to the illegal declaration of independence without a guarantee of rights? How safe would you feel if you were a Serb prior to the declaration of independence without a guarantee of rights in Croatia? These politicians can save their "sound bites" to the naive and ignorant!!!

"He (Tadic) said that Serbia had regained friends that she had once forgotten, first and foremost, from the Non-Aligned Movement and Third World countries".

Now, with the due respect to every friendship, is it that Serbia needs, first and foremost, friends from the Non-Aligned Movement and Third World countries?

More: the Non-Aligned Movement existed prior to the fall of USSR and the Communist Movement. Who is non alligned today? And with respect to whom?

Maybe some advicer should whsiper to Tadic he should refresh the speeches dating form 30 yrs. ago. Sure Tadic and Tito begin both with T. But this is the only analogy so far.

To ZK BG:

Montenegrin wine is the drink of paupers. How could you degrade yourself by drinking such an inferior wine. You'll not see Montenegrin wine outside of the Balkans. Best stick with the French or Italian wines....at least you know what you're getting ;P

They did well to expel both of them.

Thanks for the recommendations. I tend to drink Spanish wines while in the UK and I'll keep looking for a Serbian wine while here. The ones I have tried so far haven't suited my palate but I'll try the one Dragan recommended and hopefully my problem will be solved.

I'll only buy wines from those countries that respect Serbia's integrity and there are plenty with good wine regions so generally no problem there.

'Now I have to find another wine to replace the Montenegrin one I tend to drink. Recommendations anyone?
(ZK BG, 10 October 2008 14:42)'

Hey ZK, Spanish wine is really good, unfortunately mainly suited for the occasions due to its price. Greek wine is good bu unfortunately we don't see much (we'd rather find South African or Chilean in the supermarket). You could also try Romanian for more frequent use, it's not bad actually.

I think you're right, quite a few of us will have to change the way we look at Montenegro and Macedonia.

Montenegro and Macedonia have dealt a major blow to their own EU aspirations. One of the pre-conditions for the EU consideration is to have good relations with your neighbours but disrespecting Serbia's sovereignty and territorial integrity is hardly a step in that direction. Serbia can effectively block their EU ambitions until they establish good relations with Serbia and we all know what that requires.

This is the same level of betrayal as the level of betrayal the Americans will commit with the Macedonians in splitting up that country when Albanians cry for independence. Balkan people are expendable white Christians to the West. It's more important to them to say "See muslim world we care about muslims by giving away other White Christians land (not there own land though). It's Balkan countries like Serbia and Macedonia that will pay for the west's misdeeds in the Muslim world, not the western countries themselves.

Montenegro and Macedonia have dealt a major blow to their own EU aspirations. One of the pre-conditions for the EU consideration is to have good relations with your neighbours but disrespecting Serbia's sovereignty and territorial integrity is hardly a step in that direction. Serbia can effectively block their EU ambitions until they establish good relations with Serbia and we all know what that requires.
(Python, 10 October 2008 16:46)
Dear Python, I think you got it backwards, becasue is the other way around. Montenegro and Macedonia are way ahead to join EU rather than Serbia.

I think Montenegro and Macedonia forgot to think that the should 'not' recognise Kosovo until ICJ ruling in couple of years. This is why they are paying the 'big' price.

Next time Jeremic must to be quicker to remind other countries the famous lullaby.

Recommendations anyone?
(ZK BG, 10 October 2008 14:42)

Arbëri 2004 Kallmet Vere e Kuqe is just fine to replace it.

Drink that Arbëri first, than hit the head of some organ-traders in PS with the empty bottle. Perfect!
An empty bottle of "Tsar Lazar" will do it, too.

I like Skanderbeu, by the way, too. Just not to much at once.

Right on time Montenegro and Macedonia,. I don`t know why most of you guys are angry?!This is done deal, the ICJ court think is going to be a legal punch to Srbia. Kosova is forein country for Srbia and they should live with it.

The decisions of both countries to recognize Kosovo independance at this time is shameful, to say the least. It is also not surprising. Clearly these coutries still harbor bad feelings with Belgrade and this is just one way to "stick it to them". On the other hand, the decision by Belgrade to kick out the ambassadors when Serbia is trying to show the world that they will resolve issues through diplomatic means can be viewed as nothing more than a childish act. Shame on you Macedonia and Montenegro, and shame on you Belgrade for behaving in such an adolescent manner.

"Montenegro and Macedonia have dealt a major blow to their own EU aspirations. One of the pre-conditions for the EU consideration is to have good relations with your neighbours but disrespecting Serbia's sovereignty and territorial integrity is hardly a step in that direction. Serbia can effectively block their EU ambitions until they establish good relations with Serbia and we all know what that requires."

The funniest post I have read here. Serbia is the one that is against all its neighbors, 'not getting along with Serbia' apparently is the norm for all EU aspiring countries so Serbia has to change or stay out.

EC decides who is being a good neighbors or not, not Serbia., so Serbia is only blocking herself from EU

i am an Albanian and cant understand why some Albanians here have to thank Montenegro and Yugoslavian republic of Macedonia.

They are to late with recognizing Kosova.

Montenegro has occupied Albanian cities Ulqin, Tuz etc and kill Albanians same as Serbians did.

Yugoslav republic of Monkeydonia did the same to Albanians and occupied Shkupi, Tetova, Manastiri and other cities. Half of Yugoslav republic of Monkeydonia belongs to Albania.

So why Albanian leaders in Albania and Kosova are quite, because they are corrupted and have to be change to the true leaders.

I guess Vuk will also reinstate the ambassadors after a couple of months as he did with the US and EU in his statement he said "we will be reinstating the our ambassadors to the US as we have done with the EU as part of our strategy on the recognition of Kosovo" what a joke.

We all know that vlade serbia has accepted that they have given back Kosova since 1991 and ever since are only playing political games i.e. when Milosevic started on the Albanians and ended up in a war with all its neighbours.

I'm not saying that Serbia will enter a new war "nato is to close" but i am saying that they are using the Republic of Kosova as bate to try and get through to the EU etc etc.

and to date i can confirm that everything including the ICJ will back fire on Serbia simply becouse you are living in a dream world where tadic and vuk are your ferries.

Robert,

throwing an empty wine bottle at the "organ-traders" is not nice. I apologize.
You are right, who is cutting human organs out of victims alive should be treated according law and order.

But maybe it is the language. It escaped your attention, I was talking about "Arbëri 2004 Kallmet Vere e Kuqe", which is Albanian wine.

What I wanted to say: "you can drink even Albanian wine - how strong you support your cause in the real life, that is, what matters". You know, English is my fourth language, not even third. We also may have a different sense of humor. What may sound like a joke for us, could be strong for you.

If you try based on that attack "moderates" - you will achieve (how often it did happen?) an effect opposite than what you wanted.

You also did complain about lack of communication. I did send you what I believe a friendly e-mail from sataman@baraban.com on 10/07/08 5:37 PM CET where I provided you with some pointers how to reach me and also offered you to be your chauffeur FOR FREE if you are in the area.

Here is the screenshot of the relevant portion of my e-mail:

http://tinyurl.com/4seash

Did you get it Robert - because as I see, not much happened since. Maybe your settings in yahoo mail are incorrect? I sent it Tuesday, I was assuming there will be a pause with my Internet connection because I am switching providers, but so far it wasn't. So maybe everything will go more smoothly than expected.

Although i am a supporter of Serbia over Kosovo expelling countries ambassadors is not the way to go.

1) if this is the policy then expel all that have recognised Kosovo.
2) do not return Serb ambassadors to US UK etc.

This tatic is no better than the US EU UK bulling smaller countries into recognising Kosovo.

With Macedonia take Greeces side in the name row, simple. With Monty. suspend helping its farmers as a show of protest.

The problem for Serbia in my humble opinion is that Russia has not done enough, why did it withdraw peace keepers from Kosovo? WHy has it not put troops in Serbia. At this point in time Serbia is being trampled on because Tadic wants the EU so much. He on one hand is being diplomatic and not using force but on the other it is a sign of weakness. Is Serbia better off in the EU or closer to Russia? I don't know as i do not live there.

At the moment its going K-Albanians way because they have military backing and it suits the west politically at the moment to support it.

I think really Serbia and Russia need to show a bit more military force in the area, not a war but enough to let the EU know they are there.

Even though international law has been broken the ICJ will not change much on the ground, Kosovo will remian in limbo under EU/UN control.

rodo

"So why Albanian leaders in Albania and Kosova are quite, because they are corrupted and have to be change to the true leaders."

Because those "true" leaders with their logic would start a war with the Slavic and Greek populations in the Balkans, and given that Albanians have no friends and are too poor to arm themselves and fight, would see their country and other Albanian populated regions destroyed. Thankfully people like you will never have any influence in the Balkans or the rest of Europe.

'Now I have to find another wine to replace the Montenegrin one I tend to drink. Recommendations anyone?
(ZK BG, 10 October 2008 14:42)'

I've never turned down a good wine from Karlovci or Vrsac.

Although, might I also recommend some good wines from Georgia? It's another state with a few breakaway problems. Drink in solidarity.

While we're on the subject of good drinks, I have a little bone to pick: why is it that Serbs can make rakija out of almost anything, but still have problems coming up with a good beer? Jelen and Lav just don't cut it for me. Occasionally I turned to Nikscicko, but I ultimately settled on Slovenia's Lasko. Can we get a decent brewery in SRB? Best I had was Timisoreana while in RO for Easter.

I don't agree with general attitude towards montenegrins here cause all the countermeasures proposed are only going to affect the simple decent citizens that had nothing to do with the decision, as far as I understand, and not the politicians.


ZK
just let me know, I'll send you free of any charge some really good home made wine prepared by the undersingned and grandpa. we've got plenty. we just finished harvesting last weekend and we start drinking it at the begining of december. this year is not the best of years for wine in what concerns flavor, but is considered a good one.

well, I am just pleased as punch by the events of the last 2 days. both montenegro and macedonia have not caved in to the threats and intimidation of their neighbor serbia, and have chosen to recognize their new neighbor, republic of kosovo/a. good for you, and thank you, a million times!

if serbia refuses to recognize Kosovo/a, that is her right (though she'll never get into the eu w that bad attitude) -- but this idea of keeping independent countries from doing it -- who do you think you are, democratic russia?? i mean, come on. the days where belgrade dictates what all of FORMER yugoslavia can do are long, long gone, and thank god for it.

there are peaceful and progressive ways to work in this world, but that is not the path that the blgd regime and their supporters are taking. we said it from the start and i mean it: the icj proposal had and has nothing to do with intl law, and anything and everything to do with coertion and intimidation. and that is obvious now to most of the world, not just us.

so your little UN manuever appears to be backfiring.

meanwhile, some of the "moderate" posters here, my highly esteemed colleagues, are not sounding so very moderate, with all of their get-back-at-em boycotts and throwing empty wine bottles at the "organ-traders." is that nice, i ask you?

so much for civility?? i really just don't get it, just anger and personal (ethnic)insults??

roberto
robertoruss@yahoo.com

ZK UK & bganon
I couldn't agree more but wHy limit the boycott to Montenegrin wine and MAcedonian 'Ajvar' :-) I try to boycott everything made by nATO member countries (with the few exceptions Spain, Rom, Slovakia etc)and the US. Its not always possible but its first and foremost in my mind when making ANY purchasing decisions. I'm still peeved about the Czech govt as it stalled my plans to buy a skoda.

All I can say is that Montenegro and Macedonia are in very bad company now.

Hope you can all trust each other not to stab each other in the back.
When the Albanians try to secede from you I will be the first to support them.

Who is going to support you? You will have all the Serbs supporting the Albanians on this one. After all, a gift like you just gave Serbia has to be reciprocated.

@ZK.BG
An italian wine from puglia...

@ZK BG et all
Best reds ever:
1.WinEco,CARIGRAD;Barique;product:cellar Radenkovic Trnavci
2.Manastir TVRDOS
3.VARIJANTA, TOPOLA;Rose.Never saw such a beautiful color!
There is a nice place by the name SRPSKA KUCA VINA www.enotrija.co.yu where you can get more info on excelent wine producers you can trust. You may find these wines at many better restorants in BG.
Regards

Because it looks like even Robert did not get it (it escaped his attention, the wine I did mention was Albanian, so that means, it's probably some sarcasm), I have to say more explicitly.

PEOPLE PLEASE STOP THAT NONSENSE.

Before committing to "All-American" versus to "All-Serb-supporting" products, make sure, no French/German/American chemical was used to enrich the soil where these Romanian grapes did grow and it wasn't a single Russian or Serb in the team who wrote your operating system.

Positive outcome: Albanians will throw away their computers and stop to post, Serbs will be sober forever.
The opposite is also true: Serbs will throw away their computers because of significant American design, Albanians will be sober forever because the earliest grapes are said to be originated from Caucasus, more exactly, Georgia.
The last fact is also a good argument for Russians to stop drinking.

Ultimately we will go back to the Stone Age.

Embargoes never work long-term, but regardless what you do, the one who benefits from your decision pro/contra is Miskovic.

I personally buy the wine with the best bang-for-buck and we always scavenge(d) "Trader's Joe" for that. Roberto knows precisely, what "Trader's Joe" is.

Article concludes with wise and very true conclusion of Mr.Tadic:
He said that Serbia had regained friends that she had once forgotten, first and foremost, from the Non-Aligned Movement and Third World countries.
Yes- I think that it is direction where Serbia should look more in the future. "Friends" like US and it's clients are to be dealt pragmatically and with realism - but true friends are on another side - as Mr.Tadic himself observed.

Serbians - you lost Kosovo in 1999, not in 2008. You HAD 9 years to go back, and you didn't? WHY? If you are so strong, why you hadn't sent your soldiers and take Prishtina back?

So you now blame Macedonians, because we are not stupid and we see that 9 years you do not try to go back?

I will not mention backstabbing us with your sick relations with Greece. That is another story.
(just to refresh your memory - Macedonian church+many more...)

And you are angry, because we don't defend again something for you? Should we now defend Kosovo for you? Sorry, but we have other things to do, unlike in 1945 when we were forced to go to Srem, instead to South Macedonia, when million of Macedonians were killed or expelled by Greeks.

Macedonian, just because you support Kosovo independence doesn't mean that everybody does.

I'd like to see how a vote on Kosovo independence would go down in Macedonia and Montenegro to see if this really is the will of the people as you are trying to portray.

I suppose the backstabbing you are referring to is Macedonia's recognition of Kosovo as thanks for Serbian recognition of Macedonia, when our other ally, Greece, would have preferred our support.

No, we are not angry that you don't support Kosovo within Serbia, we are angry that you did not keep out of the issue.

Further it makes me angry when various excuses are invented to turn this around, but the real reasons are avoided - Albanian and US pressure. Period.

Don't pretend this is about Serbia, this is about a weak and fearful Macedonia. At least have the good grace to admit that.

As you selfishly pointed out you have fish to fry, so do we in Serbia. Frankly, don't expect any help from us in future.

BGanon,

You skipped to comment my points:
1. Why should we fight for you? OK, we are weak - you are strong. So, if you are so strong, WHY YOU DIDN'T GO TO PRISHTINA? Why you ask us to support you for so many years. This is nothing new, you don;t have ANY control over Kosovo for NINE whole years. (not that you have much before)

2. Why are you thinking we should help you, when you are backstabbing us? In the past (when in 1945 Macedonian army went to Srem, to fight for the Serbs, instead to go to Solun, Voden and Kostur, to fight for our fellow Macedonians who frighted from 1945 to 1949 ALONE. Tens of thousands were killed, hundred of thousands were expelled (out of which 30.000 were innocent CHILDREN), MILLION were forced to live in constant pressure not to speak Macedonian (until they were assimilated and now are "greeks", together with other christians that came from Asia minor to Macedonia and they are also now "Greeks, but also Macedonians"). That was in the past, but still today you have sick relations with greeks, while stopping our church to be independent, even it is clear in the Orthodox religion, that every COUNTRY has its own church (for example, Cyprus and Greece has different, even they are very similar)

Now, you raised NEW point:
We should not expect your "help". Please remind me - what have you helped us? And how?

Macedonian we recognised your country and this is how you repay us. Stop behaving like some kind of victim here, when you are victimising Serbia with your Kosovo policy. I repeat we do not expect your help, we hoped you would have a neutral policy.

Now if you think this is about history or the orthodox church you are easily fooled. This is about obeying what the US told you to do and about fear of your Albanian population, so please don't pretend this has anything to do with Serbia.

You are happy with your countries decision and support Kosovo independence so enjoy the consequences now and in a decade or so if and when Kosovo Albanian demands are more than just recognition of Kosovo. We will remember your attitude in that situation.

BGanon,

I may summarize your comments and put my points:
1. You recognized the name of my country as it is: MACEDONIA (i.e. you were not blind, at least for that). And because of that, you think it is some help for us? Not much. We recognized you too, as Serbia, too - so what? If you want to show some help - why don't you damage your "good" relations with Greece, if you are "helping" us you may call Greece to recognize the reality. Tell them a little bit about Slavic names in South Macedonia and Trakia, from where we are withdrawing for centuries under their presure. It will be similar to what you expect from us: to damage our good neighbors in Kosovo? You recognized our normal name, because it was reality, and it is still for 130 countries with 5 billion people. Only blind countries ("greek blindness"?) are using the name that greeks forced on us (AND YOU DIDN'T HELP WITH ANYTHING TO TURN IT OUT)

2. You think we did what US&UK asked for? OK, it is true. I don't deny. They are our friends, one of the only that OFFICIALLY backed us. It means TRUE friends, they have no good reason here in Macedonia. The World is so big, and Macedonia is so small (like Serbia), looking from DC. They could have backed Moldavia, or Mongolia, or other - who knows, if they needed us only for some "strategical" reason. But they came here for Kosovo, and they SAW that we are friendly democracy, which is bullied by Greece. They saw the reality. And they are democracy, that allows people to be, what they are. Maybe they were like Greece in 1863 (telling to black people that they are not worth as white, similary to what is greece telling us - that we are not macedonians (even born in macedonia), and they are macedonians (even most of them came froma asia minor)), but they switched. Also, don't forget that we are one of the FEW, that are fighting together with US, UK and Iraq government AGAINST terrorists in Iraq, and Iraq is becoming normal country. So, yes, we cooperate with our friends on many issues.

3. You suppose that Albanians will attack Macedonians in 10 years? That happened in 2001 and you saw that it hadn't finished like it has finished in Kosovo? Our country is not Serbia, just to spit in the wind and lie its citizens how strong it is, while it is not. And to lose "with dignity". We have friends - open and hidden. And we collaborate.

Half of Yugoslav republic of Monkeydonia belongs to Albania.
(rodo, 10 October 2008 23:19)

Well, rodo, with all my disrespect to (FYROM)-maniac gruevski and his "history upside-down" with Slavs being in Balkans since the monkies did climb down the trees, that "republic of Monkeydonia" is a bit over, mildly speaking.

But it reminds me of a joke.

A Russian, a Georgian and an Armenian argue, who was the first and who has the right to claim the area.

Russian: "It was Gavrilla first!"
Armenian: "No, it was Orangutyan!"
Georgian: "Wrong. It was Chimpadze!"

(end of the joke, but it reminds me of some postings here before)

No Russians-Armenians-Georgians should feel offended.

Now I have to find another wine to replace the Montenegrin one I tend to drink. Recommendations anyone?
(ZK BG)

Dear ZK,

As things stand, you will son have to switch to North Korean, Chinese or Russian wines if you insist to shake world economy with your mini boycot.

it stalled my plans to buy a skoda.
(Milan, 11 October 2008 00:32)

Milan,

No offense, but I wish you to stay alive in a good, safe and reliable Toyota Avalon made in Californian plant near Fremont than to die in a Chinese-made one.

"Enjoy":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knCgF8K8xcY

versus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5SRyG6UR2A


BTW/1: there are only few cars sold in Europe which would pass the NHTSA crash test. Everything, what is sold in the States is designed to meet the crash test of NHTSA. My suggestion:

Want to save money + have better chances to survive an accident = BUY AMERICAN. Not the clumsy Ford/GM/Chrysler junk, but Toyota, Honda, Mazda, VW cars made for American market. Some, like Toyota or Honda are even made in the States. But I don't care less.

BTW/2: Some of the cars sold in the States are actually made on the territory of North Korea but in S. Koreans plants of Hyundai. They do meet NHTSA, of course.

I did thank Montenegro,and fyro-Macedonia in advance yesterday,for making it number 50.I like to thank this two independent country's again for recognising another independent country(Kosova).Thanks heaps, and peace between all of us.

Right on time Montenegro and Macedonia,. I don`t know why most of you guys are angry?!This is done deal, the ICJ court think is going to be a legal punch to Srbia. Kosova is forein country for Srbia and they should live with it.

This is huge. Let no one tell you otherwise. Regardless of dismissive attitude of the other camp, this move has massive significance not because the specific weight of these two countries, or for particular circumstances of these recognitions. Macedonia and Montenegro, together with Albania complete the fist circle of immediate neighbours that have recognised Kosova’s independence. The first circle logically excludes Serbia, but no one is expecting Serbia to recognise this early. As old theory of circles goes, the first circle is the most important as establishes at the core of the acknowledgment, regional stability, knowledge and interest. It would also give an insight to prospective countries considering a stance on the issue. So anyone thinking about it would look firstly look at the regional picture and realise that those who have a vital interest in the region, by the mere fact of living there, have recognised, therefore so should we.
Second circle is almost complete as Greece too is expected to recognise fairly soon, while Romania has accepted Kosovar passports.
So Mr Jeremic is somehow outmanoeuvred when he says “Countries that have not thus far recognized Kosovo, now, after the ICJ has begun to consider that issue, have absolutely no reason to do so, other than to prejudice the court’s final verdict.” The focus is all wrong here. Firstly he is looking out for reasons and answers and for those you don’t need a foreign ministry but a fortune-teller with a crystal ball. Secondly he has started his country’s defence from the outer ring. It well and good talking to Panama and Indonesia but what do they know about Balkans. It is like starting a meal with the pudding, moving to the main course and then the starter. It is all wrong.

So Montenegro and Macedonia have recognised Kosovo as independent.

Maybe now is the time for the Serbian government to encourage all CG and MK passport holders to return back to their own countries to encourage their governments to think again.

It would certainly make Belgrade streets alot safer with no 'MNE' plated cars on the street and half of the drug pushers and mafiosi removed!

Montenegro and Macedonia have dealt a major blow to their own EU aspirations. One of the pre-conditions for the EU consideration is to have good relations with your neighbours but disrespecting Serbia's sovereignty and territorial integrity is hardly a step in that direction. Serbia can effectively block their EU ambitions until they establish good relations with Serbia and we all know what that requires.
(Python, 10 October 2008 16:46)
Dear Python, I think you got it backwards, becasue is the other way around. Montenegro and Macedonia are way ahead to join EU rather than Serbia.

i am an Albanian and cant understand why some Albanians here have to thank Montenegro and Yugoslavian republic of Macedonia.

They are to late with recognizing Kosova.

Montenegro has occupied Albanian cities Ulqin, Tuz etc and kill Albanians same as Serbians did.

Yugoslav republic of Monkeydonia did the same to Albanians and occupied Shkupi, Tetova, Manastiri and other cities. Half of Yugoslav republic of Monkeydonia belongs to Albania.

So why Albanian leaders in Albania and Kosova are quite, because they are corrupted and have to be change to the true leaders.

I guess Vuk will also reinstate the ambassadors after a couple of months as he did with the US and EU in his statement he said "we will be reinstating the our ambassadors to the US as we have done with the EU as part of our strategy on the recognition of Kosovo" what a joke.

We all know that vlade serbia has accepted that they have given back Kosova since 1991 and ever since are only playing political games i.e. when Milosevic started on the Albanians and ended up in a war with all its neighbours.

I'm not saying that Serbia will enter a new war "nato is to close" but i am saying that they are using the Republic of Kosova as bate to try and get through to the EU etc etc.

and to date i can confirm that everything including the ICJ will back fire on Serbia simply becouse you are living in a dream world where tadic and vuk are your ferries.

well, I am just pleased as punch by the events of the last 2 days. both montenegro and macedonia have not caved in to the threats and intimidation of their neighbor serbia, and have chosen to recognize their new neighbor, republic of kosovo/a. good for you, and thank you, a million times!

if serbia refuses to recognize Kosovo/a, that is her right (though she'll never get into the eu w that bad attitude) -- but this idea of keeping independent countries from doing it -- who do you think you are, democratic russia?? i mean, come on. the days where belgrade dictates what all of FORMER yugoslavia can do are long, long gone, and thank god for it.

there are peaceful and progressive ways to work in this world, but that is not the path that the blgd regime and their supporters are taking. we said it from the start and i mean it: the icj proposal had and has nothing to do with intl law, and anything and everything to do with coertion and intimidation. and that is obvious now to most of the world, not just us.

so your little UN manuever appears to be backfiring.

meanwhile, some of the "moderate" posters here, my highly esteemed colleagues, are not sounding so very moderate, with all of their get-back-at-em boycotts and throwing empty wine bottles at the "organ-traders." is that nice, i ask you?

so much for civility?? i really just don't get it, just anger and personal (ethnic)insults??

roberto
robertoruss@yahoo.com

What is happening in our world? A country, Serbia, has 2o% of its territory violently stolen from itself. This theft is commited by known terroists who now call themselves a legimate state!! What has happened to world order, international law?? All this is very worrying for the future. States stealing land off each other. This leads to internal terrorism (Isreal, Northern Ireland).

This world is finished. Lets all look forward to international anarchy!!!

Ps. Shame on you Montenegro. This is the death nail of that special, historic link between yourselves and Serbia!!

The decisions of both countries to recognize Kosovo independance at this time is shameful, to say the least. It is also not surprising. Clearly these coutries still harbor bad feelings with Belgrade and this is just one way to "stick it to them". On the other hand, the decision by Belgrade to kick out the ambassadors when Serbia is trying to show the world that they will resolve issues through diplomatic means can be viewed as nothing more than a childish act. Shame on you Macedonia and Montenegro, and shame on you Belgrade for behaving in such an adolescent manner.

"He (Tadic) said that Serbia had regained friends that she had once forgotten, first and foremost, from the Non-Aligned Movement and Third World countries".

Now, with the due respect to every friendship, is it that Serbia needs, first and foremost, friends from the Non-Aligned Movement and Third World countries?

More: the Non-Aligned Movement existed prior to the fall of USSR and the Communist Movement. Who is non alligned today? And with respect to whom?

Maybe some advicer should whsiper to Tadic he should refresh the speeches dating form 30 yrs. ago. Sure Tadic and Tito begin both with T. But this is the only analogy so far.

Interesting,
"A statement published on the Montenegrin government’s website states that the two countries support the building of democratic institutions in Kosovo, with a view to building a multi-ethnic society where the rights of all ethnic communities and their cultural, religious and lingual identity will be guaranteed."
The above, to me, just described what Yugoslavia was all about!! How stupid do these politicians think we are? All these independence movements have been driven by selfish means, with the backing of the U.S. How can we rely on these pseudo-nations to guarantee minority rights when there were no guarantees for minority rights when they were recognized? How safe would you feel if you were a Serb living in Kosovo prior to the illegal declaration of independence without a guarantee of rights? How safe would you feel if you were a Serb prior to the declaration of independence without a guarantee of rights in Croatia? These politicians can save their "sound bites" to the naive and ignorant!!!

As a Macedonian from the Tetovo region who lives in the States, I am just mortified that the Macedonians did this. I knew it was coming but that doesn't make it easier. This pretty much means they have thrown those Macedonians/Serbs under the bus there. But I've always known that the Skopje-types and the rest of the country never liked us from Tetovo and Kumanovo because they see us as Serbs (which, most of us either came from Kosovo, like my family did,or Serbia). They plan to swap Tetovo/Gostivar for the entire Lake Ohrid region with Albania. I know it sounds like paranoia, but it's coming from both camps.

I just hate the fact that this was done in spite and the Macedonian government will eventually pay for this in some way down the line (loss of teritory, more Albanian-language issues, etc.) Shameful! All done out of spite!

ZK BG,
Drink some Serbian wine, it's really quite good. Vrsac has become quite the wine haven. Or, some Spanish Rioja, which I also really like.
smile,
Excellent post, I could not agree more. This is a government which Serbian voters did not ask for, but through bribes from outsiders was imposed on Serbia. They sent back some ambassadors yesterday at the same time they expelled a couple of them - which tells you all you need to know about who is pulling their strings. However, Serbian voters are not stupid and will throw them out I'm sure, unless they take some measures that actually have teeth, and actually defend the national interests of Serbia.
Let's not forget who we are as a people, and where we come from. Montenegro has sold its soul to the devil, and they will now live with this shame forever. Keep up the good fight, to all Serbs. We will prevail.
Cheers!!

"Montenegro and Macedonia have dealt a major blow to their own EU aspirations. One of the pre-conditions for the EU consideration is to have good relations with your neighbours but disrespecting Serbia's sovereignty and territorial integrity is hardly a step in that direction. Serbia can effectively block their EU ambitions until they establish good relations with Serbia and we all know what that requires."

The funniest post I have read here. Serbia is the one that is against all its neighbors, 'not getting along with Serbia' apparently is the norm for all EU aspiring countries so Serbia has to change or stay out.

EC decides who is being a good neighbors or not, not Serbia., so Serbia is only blocking herself from EU

Well I presume that Macedonia will not have a problem when Albanians in their country try to break away half of their land and delcare independence!

“isn’t a clever or good political move” - Vojvodić.

Vojvodić must mean her own regimes illegal decision which will in time be corected!

Well here is the way I see it....

Montenegro and Macedonia have calculated that the pitfalls of recognition of Kosovo (ie Serbian reaction) do not outweigh the benefits of Kosovo recognition (US, Albanian pressure).

This means that both states fundamentally believe that negative relations with Serbia will last a short time and will not consist of measures likely to affect / hurt citizens of Montenegro / Macedonia very much.

Now, if this is not the case and Serbia takes more extreme measures and if relations are affected over a long period, according to diplomatic theory, Montenegro / Macedonia will have miscalculated and they will bear partial / equal responsibility for the end result of their prior action.

If on the other hand Serbia does not (over)react it will show that Montenegrin / Macedonian calculation was correct and 'diplomacy' was successful. Lets see what happens.

What do I think? My views are known, but I must admit to being angered by the Montenegrin decision. The timing is particularly cowardly and is obviously connected with Serbian success at the UN.

Personally I would be less angry if this recognition had come either before or some weeks after the UN ICJ event. My own view is that both countries should have maintained a neutral position on the issue.

To do it on the same day not only smells of callousness, but provokes anger within more people. That will not help Serbs, Macedonians or Montenegrins, so congratulations for that guys... Perhaps I am petty but I will search for alternative items of food and other imports wherever possible.

You know I also find it fantastic how long Montenegrins had influence on Yugoslav / Serbian state (hardline) policy on Kosovo and now this...

This comes as no surprise at all. There is a large Albanian population in Macedonia and the current Montenegrin leadership is hardly know for its 'integrity'.

No shock here, but sad for the Serbian and Montenegrin people.

you gotta feel for this ds mob in power, they would be fine with macedonia and montnegro, europe's nauru and micronesia, btw :) to recognize the abomination, but only if they gave them a month to milk the propaganda icj cow at home. aw. stern indeed :)
anyway this is all mind games and desperation from both sides. and clearly by that i dont mean albanians, they have no role in this. the situation is getting messier and more complicated with every day. the only really interesting question is what mr. munter said the other day. and i believe he told the whole truth and nothing but. this young ds apparatchik mr jeremic promised him eulex will deploy in all of kosovo. and since mr munter remains un-expelled i take it he was telling the truth. i know that the eu didn't work so hard to instate their own government in serbia for nothing, obviously they expect results. aiding and abetting eulex is tantamount to recognition and encouragement of exodus of serbs from kosovo. so that is very serious. and that is the real issue, not what unstable and very likely unsustainable entities like montenegro and macedonia are forced into doing or not doing.
word to the wise though. the ruling collusion DID NOT receive majority in the elections, because some parties that joined this collusion tricked their voters. this is a government forced on this country from the outside. owners of this government will blackmail it with kosovo or withdraw the money. we will celebrate its downfall sooner rather than later.

This is nothing but an American project. They used aggression and blackmail to achieve it. Shame!

What kind of a government is this in powere in Serbia, who let's albanians come into Serbia from KiM to issue them Serbian documents? They give passports to albans who don't recognise KiM as Serbia. Shame!

It was fairly obvious this time was coming based on the press releases of these so-called representatives but I am certain this is only a temporary situation while my commiserations go out to the citizens when their freedom and soul are sold so easily.

As can be seen by the co-ordination of everything, this Serbian government with its toothless ICJ initiative are all working according to the same agenda, which has already set out by their masters.

However, looking at the financial meltdown in the world with the balance of power shifting rapidly to the East, all eyes are on the Ukrainian election which should start the ball rolling.

Now I have to find another wine to replace the Montenegrin one I tend to drink. Recommendations anyone?

smile, its always a Serb to blame, even when its clearly somebody elses fault....

And if in doubt, change the subject to make sure that a Serb is to blame :)

As far as SPS was concerned, it was only the easily fooled (ie yourself) who didn't believe that this party could go with the DS coalition. You were absolutely certain it wouldn't happen....

You must be equally certain that if your SPS / SRS / DSS came to power it would not have collapsed under Dacic /Nikolic / Seselj / Kostunica disagreements and that they would have saved Kosovo!

Poor us for not having that government in charge! And poor you for really believing that :)

@ZK.BG
An italian wine from puglia...

To ZK BG:

Montenegrin wine is the drink of paupers. How could you degrade yourself by drinking such an inferior wine. You'll not see Montenegrin wine outside of the Balkans. Best stick with the French or Italian wines....at least you know what you're getting ;P

I think Montenegro and Macedonia forgot to think that the should 'not' recognise Kosovo until ICJ ruling in couple of years. This is why they are paying the 'big' price.

Next time Jeremic must to be quicker to remind other countries the famous lullaby.

Recommendations anyone?
(ZK BG, 10 October 2008 14:42)

Arbëri 2004 Kallmet Vere e Kuqe is just fine to replace it.

Drink that Arbëri first, than hit the head of some organ-traders in PS with the empty bottle. Perfect!
An empty bottle of "Tsar Lazar" will do it, too.

I like Skanderbeu, by the way, too. Just not to much at once.

If CG and MK are interested in promoting peace and stability in the region and in building up Kosovo to be the next multiethnic Vojvodina, I fully expect them to fall into line if and when an ICJ ruling makes additional recommendations on Kosovo's future. If the internal dynamics of Kosovo shift to accomodate more rights and political privileges for K-Serbs, I expect both countries - in the same of stability - to support it.

Forgive me for being so pessimistic, but I don't see "multiethnic coexistence" being a reality in Kosovo for at least two to three generations.

ZK as you might have noticed there are some poor domestic wines on sale at supermarkets, so people have a tendancy to go with Vranac, but I ain't touching the stuff anymore.

Anyway, my advice is to go to a small scale producer of domestic wine, there are a few of these types of shops in BG the price is reasonable and the wine is quite good - plus you get the added benefit of knowing that a hefty percentage isn't going into some Miskovic's pocket, but to the producers.

There was one shop that had a good website, try doing a google to find it. I've been there a few times, can't remember the name of the street...

And watch what jarred veg or spices (like feferoni)you buy also, quite a bit of the stock is from Macedonia, even though there are perfectly good alternative Serbian products.

Oh and watch out for foreign wines as well. They treat the Serbian market as a place to dispose of their lesser wines, plus some of that wine has been sitting in the shop for so long with extreme changes of temp changes...

I do urge all those living in Serbia to conduct their own mini boycott though, for the time being at least. Macedonia and Montenegro must understand how bad decisions will affect them adversely. They were warned about this.

It is not just up to the government to increse retoric and cheap talk, people have to take action too.

I don't agree with general attitude towards montenegrins here cause all the countermeasures proposed are only going to affect the simple decent citizens that had nothing to do with the decision, as far as I understand, and not the politicians.


ZK
just let me know, I'll send you free of any charge some really good home made wine prepared by the undersingned and grandpa. we've got plenty. we just finished harvesting last weekend and we start drinking it at the begining of december. this year is not the best of years for wine in what concerns flavor, but is considered a good one.

This is the same level of betrayal as the level of betrayal the Americans will commit with the Macedonians in splitting up that country when Albanians cry for independence. Balkan people are expendable white Christians to the West. It's more important to them to say "See muslim world we care about muslims by giving away other White Christians land (not there own land though). It's Balkan countries like Serbia and Macedonia that will pay for the west's misdeeds in the Muslim world, not the western countries themselves.

Robert,

throwing an empty wine bottle at the "organ-traders" is not nice. I apologize.
You are right, who is cutting human organs out of victims alive should be treated according law and order.

But maybe it is the language. It escaped your attention, I was talking about "Arbëri 2004 Kallmet Vere e Kuqe", which is Albanian wine.

What I wanted to say: "you can drink even Albanian wine - how strong you support your cause in the real life, that is, what matters". You know, English is my fourth language, not even third. We also may have a different sense of humor. What may sound like a joke for us, could be strong for you.

If you try based on that attack "moderates" - you will achieve (how often it did happen?) an effect opposite than what you wanted.

You also did complain about lack of communication. I did send you what I believe a friendly e-mail from sataman@baraban.com on 10/07/08 5:37 PM CET where I provided you with some pointers how to reach me and also offered you to be your chauffeur FOR FREE if you are in the area.

Here is the screenshot of the relevant portion of my e-mail:

http://tinyurl.com/4seash

Did you get it Robert - because as I see, not much happened since. Maybe your settings in yahoo mail are incorrect? I sent it Tuesday, I was assuming there will be a pause with my Internet connection because I am switching providers, but so far it wasn't. So maybe everything will go more smoothly than expected.

All I can say is that Montenegro and Macedonia are in very bad company now.

Hope you can all trust each other not to stab each other in the back.
When the Albanians try to secede from you I will be the first to support them.

Who is going to support you? You will have all the Serbs supporting the Albanians on this one. After all, a gift like you just gave Serbia has to be reciprocated.

Although i am a supporter of Serbia over Kosovo expelling countries ambassadors is not the way to go.

1) if this is the policy then expel all that have recognised Kosovo.
2) do not return Serb ambassadors to US UK etc.

This tatic is no better than the US EU UK bulling smaller countries into recognising Kosovo.

With Macedonia take Greeces side in the name row, simple. With Monty. suspend helping its farmers as a show of protest.

The problem for Serbia in my humble opinion is that Russia has not done enough, why did it withdraw peace keepers from Kosovo? WHy has it not put troops in Serbia. At this point in time Serbia is being trampled on because Tadic wants the EU so much. He on one hand is being diplomatic and not using force but on the other it is a sign of weakness. Is Serbia better off in the EU or closer to Russia? I don't know as i do not live there.

At the moment its going K-Albanians way because they have military backing and it suits the west politically at the moment to support it.

I think really Serbia and Russia need to show a bit more military force in the area, not a war but enough to let the EU know they are there.

Even though international law has been broken the ICJ will not change much on the ground, Kosovo will remian in limbo under EU/UN control.

Macedonian we recognised your country and this is how you repay us. Stop behaving like some kind of victim here, when you are victimising Serbia with your Kosovo policy. I repeat we do not expect your help, we hoped you would have a neutral policy.

Now if you think this is about history or the orthodox church you are easily fooled. This is about obeying what the US told you to do and about fear of your Albanian population, so please don't pretend this has anything to do with Serbia.

You are happy with your countries decision and support Kosovo independence so enjoy the consequences now and in a decade or so if and when Kosovo Albanian demands are more than just recognition of Kosovo. We will remember your attitude in that situation.

They did well to expel both of them.

'Now I have to find another wine to replace the Montenegrin one I tend to drink. Recommendations anyone?
(ZK BG, 10 October 2008 14:42)'

Hey ZK, Spanish wine is really good, unfortunately mainly suited for the occasions due to its price. Greek wine is good bu unfortunately we don't see much (we'd rather find South African or Chilean in the supermarket). You could also try Romanian for more frequent use, it's not bad actually.

I think you're right, quite a few of us will have to change the way we look at Montenegro and Macedonia.

Montenegro and Macedonia have dealt a major blow to their own EU aspirations. One of the pre-conditions for the EU consideration is to have good relations with your neighbours but disrespecting Serbia's sovereignty and territorial integrity is hardly a step in that direction. Serbia can effectively block their EU ambitions until they establish good relations with Serbia and we all know what that requires.

Thanks for the recommendations. I tend to drink Spanish wines while in the UK and I'll keep looking for a Serbian wine while here. The ones I have tried so far haven't suited my palate but I'll try the one Dragan recommended and hopefully my problem will be solved.

I'll only buy wines from those countries that respect Serbia's integrity and there are plenty with good wine regions so generally no problem there.

'Now I have to find another wine to replace the Montenegrin one I tend to drink. Recommendations anyone?
(ZK BG, 10 October 2008 14:42)'

I've never turned down a good wine from Karlovci or Vrsac.

Although, might I also recommend some good wines from Georgia? It's another state with a few breakaway problems. Drink in solidarity.

While we're on the subject of good drinks, I have a little bone to pick: why is it that Serbs can make rakija out of almost anything, but still have problems coming up with a good beer? Jelen and Lav just don't cut it for me. Occasionally I turned to Nikscicko, but I ultimately settled on Slovenia's Lasko. Can we get a decent brewery in SRB? Best I had was Timisoreana while in RO for Easter.

@ZK BG et all
Best reds ever:
1.WinEco,CARIGRAD;Barique;product:cellar Radenkovic Trnavci
2.Manastir TVRDOS
3.VARIJANTA, TOPOLA;Rose.Never saw such a beautiful color!
There is a nice place by the name SRPSKA KUCA VINA www.enotrija.co.yu where you can get more info on excelent wine producers you can trust. You may find these wines at many better restorants in BG.
Regards

ZK UK & bganon
I couldn't agree more but wHy limit the boycott to Montenegrin wine and MAcedonian 'Ajvar' :-) I try to boycott everything made by nATO member countries (with the few exceptions Spain, Rom, Slovakia etc)and the US. Its not always possible but its first and foremost in my mind when making ANY purchasing decisions. I'm still peeved about the Czech govt as it stalled my plans to buy a skoda.

Because it looks like even Robert did not get it (it escaped his attention, the wine I did mention was Albanian, so that means, it's probably some sarcasm), I have to say more explicitly.

PEOPLE PLEASE STOP THAT NONSENSE.

Before committing to "All-American" versus to "All-Serb-supporting" products, make sure, no French/German/American chemical was used to enrich the soil where these Romanian grapes did grow and it wasn't a single Russian or Serb in the team who wrote your operating system.

Positive outcome: Albanians will throw away their computers and stop to post, Serbs will be sober forever.
The opposite is also true: Serbs will throw away their computers because of significant American design, Albanians will be sober forever because the earliest grapes are said to be originated from Caucasus, more exactly, Georgia.
The last fact is also a good argument for Russians to stop drinking.

Ultimately we will go back to the Stone Age.

Embargoes never work long-term, but regardless what you do, the one who benefits from your decision pro/contra is Miskovic.

I personally buy the wine with the best bang-for-buck and we always scavenge(d) "Trader's Joe" for that. Roberto knows precisely, what "Trader's Joe" is.

Half of Yugoslav republic of Monkeydonia belongs to Albania.
(rodo, 10 October 2008 23:19)

Well, rodo, with all my disrespect to (FYROM)-maniac gruevski and his "history upside-down" with Slavs being in Balkans since the monkies did climb down the trees, that "republic of Monkeydonia" is a bit over, mildly speaking.

But it reminds me of a joke.

A Russian, a Georgian and an Armenian argue, who was the first and who has the right to claim the area.

Russian: "It was Gavrilla first!"
Armenian: "No, it was Orangutyan!"
Georgian: "Wrong. It was Chimpadze!"

(end of the joke, but it reminds me of some postings here before)

No Russians-Armenians-Georgians should feel offended.

Now I have to find another wine to replace the Montenegrin one I tend to drink. Recommendations anyone?
(ZK BG)

Dear ZK,

As things stand, you will son have to switch to North Korean, Chinese or Russian wines if you insist to shake world economy with your mini boycot.

rodo

"So why Albanian leaders in Albania and Kosova are quite, because they are corrupted and have to be change to the true leaders."

Because those "true" leaders with their logic would start a war with the Slavic and Greek populations in the Balkans, and given that Albanians have no friends and are too poor to arm themselves and fight, would see their country and other Albanian populated regions destroyed. Thankfully people like you will never have any influence in the Balkans or the rest of Europe.

Article concludes with wise and very true conclusion of Mr.Tadic:
He said that Serbia had regained friends that she had once forgotten, first and foremost, from the Non-Aligned Movement and Third World countries.
Yes- I think that it is direction where Serbia should look more in the future. "Friends" like US and it's clients are to be dealt pragmatically and with realism - but true friends are on another side - as Mr.Tadic himself observed.

it stalled my plans to buy a skoda.
(Milan, 11 October 2008 00:32)

Milan,

No offense, but I wish you to stay alive in a good, safe and reliable Toyota Avalon made in Californian plant near Fremont than to die in a Chinese-made one.

"Enjoy":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knCgF8K8xcY

versus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5SRyG6UR2A


BTW/1: there are only few cars sold in Europe which would pass the NHTSA crash test. Everything, what is sold in the States is designed to meet the crash test of NHTSA. My suggestion:

Want to save money + have better chances to survive an accident = BUY AMERICAN. Not the clumsy Ford/GM/Chrysler junk, but Toyota, Honda, Mazda, VW cars made for American market. Some, like Toyota or Honda are even made in the States. But I don't care less.

BTW/2: Some of the cars sold in the States are actually made on the territory of North Korea but in S. Koreans plants of Hyundai. They do meet NHTSA, of course.

Serbians - you lost Kosovo in 1999, not in 2008. You HAD 9 years to go back, and you didn't? WHY? If you are so strong, why you hadn't sent your soldiers and take Prishtina back?

So you now blame Macedonians, because we are not stupid and we see that 9 years you do not try to go back?

I will not mention backstabbing us with your sick relations with Greece. That is another story.
(just to refresh your memory - Macedonian church+many more...)

And you are angry, because we don't defend again something for you? Should we now defend Kosovo for you? Sorry, but we have other things to do, unlike in 1945 when we were forced to go to Srem, instead to South Macedonia, when million of Macedonians were killed or expelled by Greeks.

Macedonian, just because you support Kosovo independence doesn't mean that everybody does.

I'd like to see how a vote on Kosovo independence would go down in Macedonia and Montenegro to see if this really is the will of the people as you are trying to portray.

I suppose the backstabbing you are referring to is Macedonia's recognition of Kosovo as thanks for Serbian recognition of Macedonia, when our other ally, Greece, would have preferred our support.

No, we are not angry that you don't support Kosovo within Serbia, we are angry that you did not keep out of the issue.

Further it makes me angry when various excuses are invented to turn this around, but the real reasons are avoided - Albanian and US pressure. Period.

Don't pretend this is about Serbia, this is about a weak and fearful Macedonia. At least have the good grace to admit that.

As you selfishly pointed out you have fish to fry, so do we in Serbia. Frankly, don't expect any help from us in future.

BGanon,

You skipped to comment my points:
1. Why should we fight for you? OK, we are weak - you are strong. So, if you are so strong, WHY YOU DIDN'T GO TO PRISHTINA? Why you ask us to support you for so many years. This is nothing new, you don;t have ANY control over Kosovo for NINE whole years. (not that you have much before)

2. Why are you thinking we should help you, when you are backstabbing us? In the past (when in 1945 Macedonian army went to Srem, to fight for the Serbs, instead to go to Solun, Voden and Kostur, to fight for our fellow Macedonians who frighted from 1945 to 1949 ALONE. Tens of thousands were killed, hundred of thousands were expelled (out of which 30.000 were innocent CHILDREN), MILLION were forced to live in constant pressure not to speak Macedonian (until they were assimilated and now are "greeks", together with other christians that came from Asia minor to Macedonia and they are also now "Greeks, but also Macedonians"). That was in the past, but still today you have sick relations with greeks, while stopping our church to be independent, even it is clear in the Orthodox religion, that every COUNTRY has its own church (for example, Cyprus and Greece has different, even they are very similar)

Now, you raised NEW point:
We should not expect your "help". Please remind me - what have you helped us? And how?

BGanon,

I may summarize your comments and put my points:
1. You recognized the name of my country as it is: MACEDONIA (i.e. you were not blind, at least for that). And because of that, you think it is some help for us? Not much. We recognized you too, as Serbia, too - so what? If you want to show some help - why don't you damage your "good" relations with Greece, if you are "helping" us you may call Greece to recognize the reality. Tell them a little bit about Slavic names in South Macedonia and Trakia, from where we are withdrawing for centuries under their presure. It will be similar to what you expect from us: to damage our good neighbors in Kosovo? You recognized our normal name, because it was reality, and it is still for 130 countries with 5 billion people. Only blind countries ("greek blindness"?) are using the name that greeks forced on us (AND YOU DIDN'T HELP WITH ANYTHING TO TURN IT OUT)

2. You think we did what US&UK asked for? OK, it is true. I don't deny. They are our friends, one of the only that OFFICIALLY backed us. It means TRUE friends, they have no good reason here in Macedonia. The World is so big, and Macedonia is so small (like Serbia), looking from DC. They could have backed Moldavia, or Mongolia, or other - who knows, if they needed us only for some "strategical" reason. But they came here for Kosovo, and they SAW that we are friendly democracy, which is bullied by Greece. They saw the reality. And they are democracy, that allows people to be, what they are. Maybe they were like Greece in 1863 (telling to black people that they are not worth as white, similary to what is greece telling us - that we are not macedonians (even born in macedonia), and they are macedonians (even most of them came froma asia minor)), but they switched. Also, don't forget that we are one of the FEW, that are fighting together with US, UK and Iraq government AGAINST terrorists in Iraq, and Iraq is becoming normal country. So, yes, we cooperate with our friends on many issues.

3. You suppose that Albanians will attack Macedonians in 10 years? That happened in 2001 and you saw that it hadn't finished like it has finished in Kosovo? Our country is not Serbia, just to spit in the wind and lie its citizens how strong it is, while it is not. And to lose "with dignity". We have friends - open and hidden. And we collaborate.