New name proposal: North Macedonia

To Dashnori Ceces::

""Greeks are a mix of Albanians and Byzantine Christians (Treaty of Lousane)"""

It is impressing how propaganda is being easily mentioned occasionaly said, even in serious sites like this one. Do you believe what you said, or you just said it because you want to believe it???

And what exactly "christian byzantine" means? Is this a new form of nationality??

As a Greek I am flattered that many of you believe you have Greek roots, (probably you do some of you at the Greek Northern Ypirus - simply because it has been greek land for thousands of years), but most of you unfortunately are pure albanians.

In Greece there are no people with red skin, and angle faces. There are Greek looking people.

Many posters seem to have missed the nuances in the article.

As they say, the devil is in the details.

Because the name North Macedonia is only to be used in international fora, the proposal by Nimetz is effectively dead on arrival.

This has been offered many many times before. The Greek side will not agree to any proposal which can be effectively ignored by other countries.

This proposal does not bind anyone to referring to FYROM as North Macedonia instead of Macedonia.

The Greek side has conceded the name Macedonia (as part of a compound name) but only if this is used for all purposes.

Why do the Greeks take this stance? If the Greeks agree to this proposal by Nimetz, they are signatories to allowing their allies in Europe to recognize Macedonia as such. Which would create problems for Greece in the Council of Europe, in PACE, etc. whenever "North Macedonia" makes claims about territory inside Greece which belongs wither to N. Macedonian citizens or the N. Macedonian gov't.

DOA = Nimetz's plan is dead on arrival, and, as in so much international diplomacy involving the USA and its diplomats (Nimetz) the plan is simply for show, and indeed in many ways designed to fail.

Do you all remember Rambouillet?

To Dashnori Ceces
The only thing common the Greeks have with the Albanians are the borders.The similarities end there.
Albanians terrorised the Greek countryside under the Ottomans,allied with the axis
powers against Greece and prosecuted the Greek minority from Northen Epirus.Yet it was the Greeks that offered a lifeline to Albanians in the post-communist era.
With regard to the new name proposal I would agree with Dan Asta that there won't be a solution as long as Gruevski and the Trotsky looking foreign minister of his remain entrenched on their nationalistic propaganda against Greece.
How can Greece allow these political brainwashed dwarfs join the same clubs, when they accuse us on minority issues-the last two elections they pulled just oner 2000 votes in a region of 2500000 people-occupation and genocide?
How could you have a solution
when the goal posts are moved all the time?
The remit on UN resolution 817 is only about the name andnothing else.Subsequently,
we have demends for language,
ethnicity,identity and a double name formula to be used for different purposes.
My solution is for Greece to abandon these meaningless negotiations and activate the
EU veto funding on any project in Fyrom.Why should the Greek taxpayer sabsidise a nation hostile to us?

Το Dashnori i Ceces:

Unfortunately you are the one who keep repeating the same old propaganda lines, often repeated by the famous "macedonian diaspora", which is twisting and violating history in the most brutal way internationally. Your comments are almost funny, and don't try to stand on them, showing propaganda links, with no historical or other credibility.

The Hellenic nation, or the nation of the Greeks today, Graikoi during the ottoman times, Romioi during the byzantine times and Hellenes during the ancient greek times, has been one, united and constant.

Of course from people with no history, culture or even identity like your albanian people are(there is not one serious historical proof that the Albanian people are related to the ancient Illyrians, you people would to believe it's true, and your propaganda machine has created this story for your people, so to believe that you have some sort of history), it is trully hurting to know that next to them the oldest nation in Europe exists.

But believe me, the purity of the Greek nation is so intense as the propaganda lies you want to "pass through" are.

Even the Chamerians, that your poor nationalistic albanian propaganda machine presents as albanians, are poor Greeks, "albanised" by force during the ottoman times in the region of Thesprotia and Ypirus, when the ottoman turks gave privillege to the muslim albanians to rule the region, over the Greeks.

So don't "play" with history because history is so standard that you cannot twist it so easily.

To say that the Greek heroes are albanians is so bad-made propaganda, that I cannot even comment seriously on that.

The Albanian immigrants became "humans" again, when Greece and the Greek nation gave them the opportunity to build a future for them and their children, that your Albania could not give them ever.

Even today the whole of your economy is totally based on the 1,5 billion Euros that the albanian immigrants send back to Albania every year.

So stop the propaganda and try to learn from people much better than you.

Your Albania would be still be the most undeveloped, poor uncivilized country in Europe (as it was back in 1990), if it wasn't Greece to "feed" your people and your country, both metaphorically and actually...

Whats wrong with FYROM?

Since the country is not going to survive, regardless of possibly nato membership why bother with a name?

Soon it will be part of Greater Albania anyway.

I think it's fair. Macedonia has no reason to argue, because it has the name Macedonia in it and it is indeed geopraphically North of the Greek one and Greece should have nothing against it since it does not use the name Macedonia exclusively and it can't claim it for itself since the region is indeed geographically a part of the whole Macedonia region.

Good post, Rashan.

I briefly read yout article. Of course, the most popular idea here where I am right now is the "Uralic Continuity Theory". BTW: the article is incorrect calling Sumerians Semitic. Akkadians were Semitic, but not Sumerians. They were agglutinative-speaking. Here many scholars claim, Hungarian words can be derived from Sumerian. It is not entirely baseless - even swearing is pretty close. Language structure, logic, etc. are of course nearly identical - but that is the same between Hungarian and Mongol or Hungarian and Turkish.

I honestly will look into what you referred to, it looks interesting.

As for Albanians - as much as the Ossetian-Shquip kinship would look funny in today's politics, this was re-butted by Albanians several times. The supposed "separation" took place around 13th Century, but Shq and Ossetian/Alanian language are completely unintelligable.

Other theories like Shquip-Vlach (Romanian) kinship also exist. What we know, Romans had always one legion in the area, so the Byzantines to keep the valleys safe from the mountaineers. So there were some unruly mountaineers in the area since ever, otherwise why keep a legion?

Now, let's assume Alexandar Makedonski was from a Slavic tribe. If that is the case, there should be not just strong Slavic presence in Antique Greek language, but all over mediterranian, following phalanxes of A.M. Instead, we see huge Hellenic influence.

Otherwise my nick has nothing to do with cossacks. It's merely my profession in a form of a joke: ATA-MAN. It's ATA, like the drive you have in your computer, that's what I am doing for living. But since I do speak Russian at native level, I took the nick in a form of teasing. I have no direct affinity with cossacks.

I overlook this one:

Their name of Shyptar is not even a derivative of Indo European languages at all. Go figure.
(Rashan, 9 October 2008 16:14)

Rashan, AFAIK, "Shqiperia" = "Land of Eagles", it's a relatively new wording. It is not even 300 years old.

I do not know, how did call Skanderbeg his compatriots. Epirots? Surely, not "Shqip" or anything beginning with Alb/Arb.

Peter Sudyka, makes sense to me, but that is probably the reason it will fail.

It does make a lot of sense, but one fears that FYROM leadership and Greek leadership will not be able to sell any compromise to their constituents. At this point neither side wants a solution; it seems that the protagonists only want vindication for their respective positions.

Ataman

Since you have some Slavic affinity but it appears that you are not a fully fledged Cossack as your name implies I do enjoy your posts.

You should investigate the Paleolithic Continuity Theory on the peoples of Europe.

Italian linguist, scholar and historian Mario Alinei is the preeminent scholar on this issue.

Please search and read his many references on Google.

You will find that the Balkans is the ancestral home of all Slavs.

Our mythology and folklore has no history of the migrations you refer to.

We are the most numerous white people for a reason.

The material is utterly scientific and "technical" as you would say.

For an intro

http://www.continuitas.com/intro.html



As for the Albanians the conclusions are obvious

South East of the Caucuses as an ancestral home. Recent arrivals to the lands of Rashka. Their brethren are still there wearing the same clothes and hats. Same family and society structures. Blood oaths and crimes. Close to the lands of the Alani but not the same. Same troubles in the ancient lands that used to be called the Taurus Mountains but are more commonly called the Caucuses.

As for the posters here who go on about Indo-European they obviously must not know that this refers to proximities all the way to the Hindus valley?

Their name of Shyptar is not even a derivative of Indo European languages at all. Go figure.

Absolutely agree, PSS.

But as many times I expressed my opinion, it's much less the name than the turning history books and slavistics upside-down. The most archaic Slavic language is Polish, Lithuanian representing the "link" between Slavic and Germanic languages. One of the earliest "Slavic-kind" language we know is Hittite from Anatolia, decyphered by Czech scientist (my bad, I did not remember correctly, earlier I wrote "Polish", that's incorrect). Hittites were "newcomers" from North, they settled over agglutinative-speaking Hatta tribe which spoke an agglutinative language, not unlike Sumerian, etc.

http://tinyurl.com/4y5z63

Interesting to observe, Hittites called own language "our" ("našili") language, but the link between Hittites and modern Slavs is stretching through good 3500 years, way to long to call them "direct ancestors". Their vocabulary is pretty far apart, too.

Unlike East Anatolia where they gave Ramses III a good lession how to use iron instead of bronze, there is no sign of Slavs even close to Balkan peninsula before 400 AD.

>> "As for the Albanians the conclusions are obvious

South East of the Caucuses as an ancestral home. Recent arrivals to the lands of Rashka."

You are a funny guy. Serbs are very recent arrivals to the land of Illyria and Dardani. How come Albanian DNA is EUROPEAN? http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v8/n7/abs/5200443a.html

Greeks and 'Macedonians' need to cut this. FYROM is slav and Greeks are a mix of Albanians and Byzantine Christians (Treaty of Lousane)

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html 45% of 'Greeks' pre-ottoman invasion were Albanian.

Leonidas and Pavlos,
I posted a link that cites scholars, you keep repeating the same old lines.

"So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). "

The fact that the region MIGHT have spoken Greek 2500 years ago, does not mean anything. Your best fighters were of Albanian blood, and you know it, but don't want to admit it. How is that fustanella looking?

Greece was created based on religion, not nationality. Orthodox people were 'Greeks,' nothing to do with the old Greeks, until the Europeans reminded you and neo-Hellenism started. Your only identity was Orthodox identity, nothing to do with Socrates, Plato or Achilles.

You gave us a lifeline? You need workers, that's why, and your economy grew. Who built all those stadiums for the Olympics?

Most of those 12 hellenized Albanians are in Greece already, just a few old people have remained.

I do not know, how did call Skanderbeg his compatriots. Epirots? Surely, not "Shqip" or anything beginning with Alb/Arb.
(Ataman, 9 October 2008 20:35)

That answered by itself today, more-less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonians#Albani

"Albanoi were an Illyrian tribe. The first known occurrence of the word Albani as the name of an Illyrian tribe in what is now north-central Albania goes back to 130 AD, in a work of Ptolemy.:"

Since the tribe "Albanoi" was associated with Kruja area already 1300 years before Kastrioti/Kastriotis, the question did answer itself.

That means, "Albanoi" were indeed Illyrian tribe and known since 130 AD, according Ptolemy.

Yeah..North Macedonia ..i agree..you have my ballot..

I think this can work, calling the country "North Macedonia" but only if Greece agrees to let them call themselves Macedonians, and call their language macedonian, otherwise this will go to the ICJ as well.

North Macedonia does sound good, but why change a name for the modern Greeks?

The Macedonian language is the first written Slavic language. The alphabet, again, created by two Macedonian brothers, Kiril & Metodi. Over 500 million people speak Slavic because of Macedonians and Macedonia.

MACEDONIA IS MACEDONIAN
KOSOVO IS SERBIAN

in the late 80´s of the last century, an US-american team of archeologists and historians came to the conclusion that the illyrian theory is outdated, ( by the way the illyrians were assimilated by all ethnicities living in the balkans today )..
but our dear friends seem to need that legend, or illusion, how I would rather call it... if you feel a certain kind of deficit, you are eager to believe in romantic stories about "thousands of years of history" even if there is simply no reasonable proof for that.

>> "As for the Albanians the conclusions are obvious

South East of the Caucuses as an ancestral home. Recent arrivals to the lands of Rashka."

You are a funny guy. Serbs are very recent arrivals to the land of Illyria and Dardani. How come Albanian DNA is EUROPEAN? http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v8/n7/abs/5200443a.html

Greeks and 'Macedonians' need to cut this. FYROM is slav and Greeks are a mix of Albanians and Byzantine Christians (Treaty of Lousane)

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html 45% of 'Greeks' pre-ottoman invasion were Albanian.

I think it's fair. Macedonia has no reason to argue, because it has the name Macedonia in it and it is indeed geopraphically North of the Greek one and Greece should have nothing against it since it does not use the name Macedonia exclusively and it can't claim it for itself since the region is indeed geographically a part of the whole Macedonia region.

Peter Sudyka, makes sense to me, but that is probably the reason it will fail.

It does make a lot of sense, but one fears that FYROM leadership and Greek leadership will not be able to sell any compromise to their constituents. At this point neither side wants a solution; it seems that the protagonists only want vindication for their respective positions.

Absolutely agree, PSS.

But as many times I expressed my opinion, it's much less the name than the turning history books and slavistics upside-down. The most archaic Slavic language is Polish, Lithuanian representing the "link" between Slavic and Germanic languages. One of the earliest "Slavic-kind" language we know is Hittite from Anatolia, decyphered by Czech scientist (my bad, I did not remember correctly, earlier I wrote "Polish", that's incorrect). Hittites were "newcomers" from North, they settled over agglutinative-speaking Hatta tribe which spoke an agglutinative language, not unlike Sumerian, etc.

http://tinyurl.com/4y5z63

Interesting to observe, Hittites called own language "our" ("našili") language, but the link between Hittites and modern Slavs is stretching through good 3500 years, way to long to call them "direct ancestors". Their vocabulary is pretty far apart, too.

Unlike East Anatolia where they gave Ramses III a good lession how to use iron instead of bronze, there is no sign of Slavs even close to Balkan peninsula before 400 AD.

Whats wrong with FYROM?

Since the country is not going to survive, regardless of possibly nato membership why bother with a name?

Soon it will be part of Greater Albania anyway.

Yeah..North Macedonia ..i agree..you have my ballot..

Ataman

Since you have some Slavic affinity but it appears that you are not a fully fledged Cossack as your name implies I do enjoy your posts.

You should investigate the Paleolithic Continuity Theory on the peoples of Europe.

Italian linguist, scholar and historian Mario Alinei is the preeminent scholar on this issue.

Please search and read his many references on Google.

You will find that the Balkans is the ancestral home of all Slavs.

Our mythology and folklore has no history of the migrations you refer to.

We are the most numerous white people for a reason.

The material is utterly scientific and "technical" as you would say.

For an intro

http://www.continuitas.com/intro.html



As for the Albanians the conclusions are obvious

South East of the Caucuses as an ancestral home. Recent arrivals to the lands of Rashka. Their brethren are still there wearing the same clothes and hats. Same family and society structures. Blood oaths and crimes. Close to the lands of the Alani but not the same. Same troubles in the ancient lands that used to be called the Taurus Mountains but are more commonly called the Caucuses.

As for the posters here who go on about Indo-European they obviously must not know that this refers to proximities all the way to the Hindus valley?

Their name of Shyptar is not even a derivative of Indo European languages at all. Go figure.

Many posters seem to have missed the nuances in the article.

As they say, the devil is in the details.

Because the name North Macedonia is only to be used in international fora, the proposal by Nimetz is effectively dead on arrival.

This has been offered many many times before. The Greek side will not agree to any proposal which can be effectively ignored by other countries.

This proposal does not bind anyone to referring to FYROM as North Macedonia instead of Macedonia.

The Greek side has conceded the name Macedonia (as part of a compound name) but only if this is used for all purposes.

Why do the Greeks take this stance? If the Greeks agree to this proposal by Nimetz, they are signatories to allowing their allies in Europe to recognize Macedonia as such. Which would create problems for Greece in the Council of Europe, in PACE, etc. whenever "North Macedonia" makes claims about territory inside Greece which belongs wither to N. Macedonian citizens or the N. Macedonian gov't.

DOA = Nimetz's plan is dead on arrival, and, as in so much international diplomacy involving the USA and its diplomats (Nimetz) the plan is simply for show, and indeed in many ways designed to fail.

Do you all remember Rambouillet?

To Dashnori Ceces::

""Greeks are a mix of Albanians and Byzantine Christians (Treaty of Lousane)"""

It is impressing how propaganda is being easily mentioned occasionaly said, even in serious sites like this one. Do you believe what you said, or you just said it because you want to believe it???

And what exactly "christian byzantine" means? Is this a new form of nationality??

As a Greek I am flattered that many of you believe you have Greek roots, (probably you do some of you at the Greek Northern Ypirus - simply because it has been greek land for thousands of years), but most of you unfortunately are pure albanians.

In Greece there are no people with red skin, and angle faces. There are Greek looking people.

Good post, Rashan.

I briefly read yout article. Of course, the most popular idea here where I am right now is the "Uralic Continuity Theory". BTW: the article is incorrect calling Sumerians Semitic. Akkadians were Semitic, but not Sumerians. They were agglutinative-speaking. Here many scholars claim, Hungarian words can be derived from Sumerian. It is not entirely baseless - even swearing is pretty close. Language structure, logic, etc. are of course nearly identical - but that is the same between Hungarian and Mongol or Hungarian and Turkish.

I honestly will look into what you referred to, it looks interesting.

As for Albanians - as much as the Ossetian-Shquip kinship would look funny in today's politics, this was re-butted by Albanians several times. The supposed "separation" took place around 13th Century, but Shq and Ossetian/Alanian language are completely unintelligable.

Other theories like Shquip-Vlach (Romanian) kinship also exist. What we know, Romans had always one legion in the area, so the Byzantines to keep the valleys safe from the mountaineers. So there were some unruly mountaineers in the area since ever, otherwise why keep a legion?

Now, let's assume Alexandar Makedonski was from a Slavic tribe. If that is the case, there should be not just strong Slavic presence in Antique Greek language, but all over mediterranian, following phalanxes of A.M. Instead, we see huge Hellenic influence.

Otherwise my nick has nothing to do with cossacks. It's merely my profession in a form of a joke: ATA-MAN. It's ATA, like the drive you have in your computer, that's what I am doing for living. But since I do speak Russian at native level, I took the nick in a form of teasing. I have no direct affinity with cossacks.

I think this can work, calling the country "North Macedonia" but only if Greece agrees to let them call themselves Macedonians, and call their language macedonian, otherwise this will go to the ICJ as well.

I overlook this one:

Their name of Shyptar is not even a derivative of Indo European languages at all. Go figure.
(Rashan, 9 October 2008 16:14)

Rashan, AFAIK, "Shqiperia" = "Land of Eagles", it's a relatively new wording. It is not even 300 years old.

I do not know, how did call Skanderbeg his compatriots. Epirots? Surely, not "Shqip" or anything beginning with Alb/Arb.

To Dashnori Ceces
The only thing common the Greeks have with the Albanians are the borders.The similarities end there.
Albanians terrorised the Greek countryside under the Ottomans,allied with the axis
powers against Greece and prosecuted the Greek minority from Northen Epirus.Yet it was the Greeks that offered a lifeline to Albanians in the post-communist era.
With regard to the new name proposal I would agree with Dan Asta that there won't be a solution as long as Gruevski and the Trotsky looking foreign minister of his remain entrenched on their nationalistic propaganda against Greece.
How can Greece allow these political brainwashed dwarfs join the same clubs, when they accuse us on minority issues-the last two elections they pulled just oner 2000 votes in a region of 2500000 people-occupation and genocide?
How could you have a solution
when the goal posts are moved all the time?
The remit on UN resolution 817 is only about the name andnothing else.Subsequently,
we have demends for language,
ethnicity,identity and a double name formula to be used for different purposes.
My solution is for Greece to abandon these meaningless negotiations and activate the
EU veto funding on any project in Fyrom.Why should the Greek taxpayer sabsidise a nation hostile to us?

Leonidas and Pavlos,
I posted a link that cites scholars, you keep repeating the same old lines.

"So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). "

The fact that the region MIGHT have spoken Greek 2500 years ago, does not mean anything. Your best fighters were of Albanian blood, and you know it, but don't want to admit it. How is that fustanella looking?

Greece was created based on religion, not nationality. Orthodox people were 'Greeks,' nothing to do with the old Greeks, until the Europeans reminded you and neo-Hellenism started. Your only identity was Orthodox identity, nothing to do with Socrates, Plato or Achilles.

You gave us a lifeline? You need workers, that's why, and your economy grew. Who built all those stadiums for the Olympics?

Most of those 12 hellenized Albanians are in Greece already, just a few old people have remained.

I do not know, how did call Skanderbeg his compatriots. Epirots? Surely, not "Shqip" or anything beginning with Alb/Arb.
(Ataman, 9 October 2008 20:35)

That answered by itself today, more-less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonians#Albani

"Albanoi were an Illyrian tribe. The first known occurrence of the word Albani as the name of an Illyrian tribe in what is now north-central Albania goes back to 130 AD, in a work of Ptolemy.:"

Since the tribe "Albanoi" was associated with Kruja area already 1300 years before Kastrioti/Kastriotis, the question did answer itself.

That means, "Albanoi" were indeed Illyrian tribe and known since 130 AD, according Ptolemy.

Το Dashnori i Ceces:

Unfortunately you are the one who keep repeating the same old propaganda lines, often repeated by the famous "macedonian diaspora", which is twisting and violating history in the most brutal way internationally. Your comments are almost funny, and don't try to stand on them, showing propaganda links, with no historical or other credibility.

The Hellenic nation, or the nation of the Greeks today, Graikoi during the ottoman times, Romioi during the byzantine times and Hellenes during the ancient greek times, has been one, united and constant.

Of course from people with no history, culture or even identity like your albanian people are(there is not one serious historical proof that the Albanian people are related to the ancient Illyrians, you people would to believe it's true, and your propaganda machine has created this story for your people, so to believe that you have some sort of history), it is trully hurting to know that next to them the oldest nation in Europe exists.

But believe me, the purity of the Greek nation is so intense as the propaganda lies you want to "pass through" are.

Even the Chamerians, that your poor nationalistic albanian propaganda machine presents as albanians, are poor Greeks, "albanised" by force during the ottoman times in the region of Thesprotia and Ypirus, when the ottoman turks gave privillege to the muslim albanians to rule the region, over the Greeks.

So don't "play" with history because history is so standard that you cannot twist it so easily.

To say that the Greek heroes are albanians is so bad-made propaganda, that I cannot even comment seriously on that.

The Albanian immigrants became "humans" again, when Greece and the Greek nation gave them the opportunity to build a future for them and their children, that your Albania could not give them ever.

Even today the whole of your economy is totally based on the 1,5 billion Euros that the albanian immigrants send back to Albania every year.

So stop the propaganda and try to learn from people much better than you.

Your Albania would be still be the most undeveloped, poor uncivilized country in Europe (as it was back in 1990), if it wasn't Greece to "feed" your people and your country, both metaphorically and actually...

North Macedonia does sound good, but why change a name for the modern Greeks?

The Macedonian language is the first written Slavic language. The alphabet, again, created by two Macedonian brothers, Kiril & Metodi. Over 500 million people speak Slavic because of Macedonians and Macedonia.

MACEDONIA IS MACEDONIAN
KOSOVO IS SERBIAN

in the late 80´s of the last century, an US-american team of archeologists and historians came to the conclusion that the illyrian theory is outdated, ( by the way the illyrians were assimilated by all ethnicities living in the balkans today )..
but our dear friends seem to need that legend, or illusion, how I would rather call it... if you feel a certain kind of deficit, you are eager to believe in romantic stories about "thousands of years of history" even if there is simply no reasonable proof for that.