"Spain, Serbia's chief Kosovo ally"

It must be getting more and more apparent to the Albanians that Kosovo's birth as a "state" was stillborn.

Even the US and western Europe cannot overturn UN law, as much as they'd like to try to do so, the rest of the world knows what lies in store if they let the US and EU "create" Kosovo - a complete breakdown in the world's order and ensuing chaos.

Assuming that Serbia get's it's wish to go to the ICJ and gets a favourable legal opinion, the Albanians like to claim it will have no bearing on Kosovo's future.

They couldn't be further from the truth. Ask yourself why the EU and US are so determined to stop Serbia going to the ICJ if it's legal opinion isn't binding? What harm could a non binding ruling be? The simple answer is investment. If the ICJ rules that Kosovo's declaration was illegal, NOBODY will invest in Kosovo and it is this that will kill Kosovo because the EU and the US will not create a state only to plough billions of dollars into it to keep it alive. What will they get in return? Not much. The only real asset Kosovo has is Trepca. No western mining company will invest in Kosovo knowing that Serbia will take them to the cleaners in their own domestic courts.

So an ICJ ruling is a life and death decision for the "state" of Kosovo. Looks like the plug is going to be pulled from the life support system.

Declaration of independence was preceded by 8 year period of debate and negotiations. It also ignores the fact that independence is a supervised one based on detailed constitutional agreements and a plan envisaged by UN envoy to Kosova Martii Antisaari.
(village-bey, 5 October 2008 16:12)

You would be 100% right, village-bey if:

a) the debate would be a honest debate, without unilateral interests of bush-man clan (not USA!) being applied and the K-Albanian delegation discouraged from any concession.

b) if K-Albanians scene wold be free from figures known in Serbia as war criminals.

c) you may argue, these war criminals are not really war criminals because they were not sentenced. Pro-forma you are right, but we all know that major witnesses were silenced and some "gentle" force applied to the court. It could save thaci and haradinaj and ceku some long years behind the bars, but it does cost you much more.

Albanians like to pose in heroic mountain warrior pose and show the world the tough stance, "Kanun", high morale, etc. Unfortunately some of their "leaders" fail miserably. "Kanun" does not distinguish between men, so apply it to Serbian side symmetrically and these ceku / haradinaj / thaci / etc gangsters shouldn't be celebrities.

Clean up your own act and you may expect better things. Interestingly, most regulars here who are not associated with (ex)YU are very skeptical. Wonder, why the K-Albanian cause has so few friends in the "West" among private people?

Spain's position on the Kosovo UDI is vey clear and it won't change regardless of any pressures. All national parties are in agreement that the 'Kosova' separatism will not be recognized unless Serbia does it first.
(Besides, it is clear to anyone here that an American military base, can't be an acceptable reason for the creation of a new nation)
The reason for this is clear. Spain has its own potential 'Kosovas'(Basque and Catalan) and they have no intention of committing hara-kiri('a la yugoslava') for the pleasure
of Washington (or Brussels).
Spanish sympathies, in general, are inclined towards the Serbs, ever since their forsenic commission gave out their Kosovo report that there was no genocide committed there by the Serbs (although there might have been war crimes). Washington was visibly irritated by this Spanish show of independence to the statement of the U.S.secretary of defence William Cohen who claimed that over one hundred thousand of Albano-Kosovars (of 'military age')might have been executed by the Serbs.
Also, here in Spain, the 'Albano-Kosovares' have a very bad reputation as drug-dealers, burglars and 'malhechores' and there is hardly any weak that the local TV doesn't report some of their exploits. Of course, all nations have these characters, but not in such a staggering number as our 'Kosova nation' seems to produce.

Tapas size truths.
Spain propagates the same Serbian myths when it comes to Kosova.
It is interesting to notice the attempt to reinitiate and old legalist argument, namely that of Kosova being a province of Serbia thus with no legal right to succession.
That continues to be the case, regardless the fact that Kosova’s claim to independence was based on secession, therefore on self determination. This emphasis is a deliberate misinterpretation that serves to shield Spain from acknowledging Kosova’s claim to external sovereignty. A proper debate for Spanish diplomacy would have been whether Kosova deserves the privilege of external self determination. Spain’s desire not to engage this debate is consistent with her unitarist stances aimed at Basque, Catalan claims based on the same right. What is puzzling is the Spain’s willingness to rally support for a corrupt cause.
The other misleading statement is that "Serbia's partition did not come through agreement or an arrangement, which is allowed under international law, nor is the declared independence legitimized by a UN resolution".
This couldn’t be further from the truth. Declaration of independence was preceded by 8 year period of debate and negotiations. It also ignores the fact that independence is a supervised one based on detailed constitutional agreements and a plan envisaged by UN envoy to Kosova Martii Antisaari.

Let's not forgett that even Spain opposes UDI, they also oppose to set Kosovo under Serbian rule. Spain as a NATO member supported and participated on the military action to liberate Kosovo in 1999. The "chief Kosovo ally" is still in great opposition to you and is there stationed in Kosovo to protect Albanians from Serb troups!

Looks like the plug is going to be pulled from the life support system.
(Zoran, 5 October 2008 13:56)

This is IMO regardless of ICJ decision. But ICJ decision in favor of Serbia won't make it much worse. For the near future: Kosovo will remain a place in limbo, without recognized railway:

http://tinyurl.com/3wseok

without recognized automotive insurance ("green card")

http://tinyurl.com/46fvkd

with visa in Kosovo travel documents needed even to visit a bathroom (at best) - but impossible to reach any major European country by car because the roads are blocked by countries who do not recognize these documents.

So all this of course greatly "encourages" doing business in Kosovo/with Kosovo - regardless the ICJ outcome.

The people may feel OK, the private help is coming in - but this is clearly not "business as usual". There is no way it can be until they do not sit down with Serbs to negotiate without interference of USA. USA has absolutely no incentive to change the status and decrease the dependency. Who claims the opposite is naive.

The probable positive outcome of ICJ ruling is a good tool for Serbia to apply some pressure internationally. A negative outcome (from Serbian point of view) of ICJ ruling won't put Kosovo out of limbo.

Spain is in big trouble regarding kosovo we all know...maybe in some few years there will be Catalunia-Andalusia-Basconia and the remain will be Spain..So Serbia's battle is its battle..but..with no hopes...

"It also ignores the fact that independence is a supervised one based on detailed constitutional agreements and a plan envisaged by UN envoy to Kosova Martii Antisaari" THIS is what Spain was referring to. The Albanians accepted the Ahtisaari plan but NOT the Serbs which is why it didn't pass for a plan at the UNSC, and which is why it has NO legitimacy under UN law.

And it's disingenuous to suggest that there was any "negotiation" when the US openly states that it will recognise an independent Kosovo. I don't blame the Albanians for thinking they can attain independence with US backing, so why should they compromise with Serbia.

Unfortunately, this is what a ruling at the ICJ in favour of Serbia will do - nullify Kosovo as a state whether the EU and US like it or not.

Every now and then I stop by at these pages to read what the readers have to say about the events in Balkans. And very time I get shocked to see so much indifference towards events that led to the current situation. With regards to Kosovo, Serbs seem to forget that only 10 years ago they ruled Kosovo with an iron hand consequences of which are very well known. Just to refresh your memory with some of these things, so in less than 3 moths of war more than 12 thousand dead civilians, including babies as 6 months old, more that 1 million Albanians expelled from Kosovo, thousand women raped and millions of euros in damage to the property of non Serbs in Kosovo all perpetrated and orchestrated by the highest echelons of Serb Government at the time.

Furthermore every peacefully attempt to negotiate a just settlement between Kosovo and Serbia prior to the NATO intervention was deliberately ignored by Serbia. Serbia refused to deal with Kosovo issue within Yugoslav federation since student revolts of 1981, and its response to the requests of Kosovo Albanians for agreement about the fate of Kosovo was 1989 occupation which put entire Kosovo under a martial rule that would lead to the closure of schools, TV, radio and laying off of more that 300000 Albanians from their jobs including local police (clear moves aimed at destroying the very pillars of Kosovo’s fledgling society).

On the first half of 90’s, late Kosovo President Rugova had reached an education agreement with Serb Government through mediation of St. Eugidio to allow education on Albanian language which was prohibited after Serbia abolished Yugoslav constitution of 1974 and striped Kosovo of its autonomy within Yugoslavia in 1989. The agreement was never put in use, Serbia rejected own agreement. Then there was Rambouillet, Serbia rejected everything from those talks only to offer the same, what was offered then, 10 years later. This is grandiose hypocrisy. Serb politicians when dealing the international community forget that they are not dealing with gullible people that they are used too in Serbia and unaware of this restore to tactics that work in Serbia.

International community is not filled with myths and false interpretation of history about Kosovo. Furthermore, for Western democracies human life is more valuable than a stone in a church or a mosque. Viewed from this angle their acceptance of independent Kosovo is natural outcome of events that preceded it and not a conspiracy against Serbia as Serbs believe it to be.

Why there is such an indifferent attitude and antipathy from Serbs (as displayed across the board on the posting on this web site and others) towards not only Albanians in Kosovo but towards all non Serbs in former Yugoslavia, I don’t know but I would hold responsible the government of Serbia and news media for not doing enough to shed more light on some of the events that were done on behalf of the Serb people and then perhaps there would be a better understanding of current reality.

It is very sad to see that event current pro western government (labeled as such at least) and media supporting this government use Kosovo frequently in the same fashion as governments before did and in the same fashion as Milosevic’s government did mainly for scoring cheap political points in domestic politics. And people in Serbia still buy this type of politics. News about some things said with regards to Kosovo, or who recognized it and who did not, top headlines while trials of former military and police members for their crimes against civilians in Kosovo go unnoticed or receive very little attention. Sad state of affairs in Serbia!

Zoran

Once again your comments are spot on. I couldn't agree more.

Proud albanian

You say that George Bush is the President of the world. This is the President that has brought the US to the brink of bankrupcy. In the end he may well need help from the Kosovo albanian narco-people traffickers to make donations to the US budget. God knows they need it! Anyway, I refer you to the below article. It may prove to be eye opening for you.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,581502,00.html

"Interestingly, most regulars here who are not associated with (ex)YU are very skeptical. Wonder, why the K-Albanian cause has so few friends in the "West" among private people?"
(Ataman, 5 October 2008 17:18)


So few frnds in the west?? i thought that this was particularly funny and ironic since here, in frisco, well, you just can't get more "west" than that, at least from our POV. lemme put it this way -- from my job, on any given day, unless it is super-foggy, you can see the most-amazing pacific ocean, and at times you almost feel like you can see to china, or japan, or the korean peninsula, i'm not exactly sure. so, in reality, we are so far west, we're almost east! funny how these things work on ole planet earth.

ok, so i may not be perfectly typical of everyone in the "West" being that i'm jewish, being that i'm outspoken, being that my family was decimated in the holocaust (our "beloved" poland) -- BUT it is true that despite our (america's) many, many faults, we have a gut feeling for protecting people's freedom and human rights around the world. and that is exactly why so many people in this country, despite our paranoia about terrorism, were and are revolted by things like abu gariv, guantanamo bay, treatment of prisoners, and on and on and on. we are extremely critical of our own govt. (as i wish!! more people in serbia would be) and therefore i and many others hope and pray (to "allah" if you wish) that the republicans are thrown out, and for a very long time, and that the obama/biden team offers a much more democratic and open alternative. we have got to get rid of bush, and his awful mentality!!!

but as for the west, most of us supported the people who were victimized by serb aggression, despite the intense propaganda coming out of belgrade and the diaspora here. and we continue to feel that way, despite what certain posters imply.

to my colleagues from kosovo/a, keep up the good work, and never give up your freedom!

thank you.

roberto
from the far, far west :)
robertoruss@yahoo.com

I have a lot of respect for Spain's foreign policy stance. I wish our spineless leaders would have done the same and stood up to the USA - taking troops out of Iraq and so forth.

Spain seems perfectly happy neither to head towards Russia, China or the USA and to follow its own path. Why can't the UK do this???

Roberto, you are not a "unique case", believe me. Neither with American citizenship, nor with a view of Pacific Ocean, nor with other things. No need to re-iterate these every time. It does not support your cause, just the opposite.

Instead what you achieve - you strongly alienate your potential "allies". Now your biggest opponents are among democratic, liberal-minded Serbs, Russians, etc. I am one of the "etc". Mike from USA - an other, for instance. "bganon" a third and so on. You do much more damage to your cause than good.

>BUT it is true that despite our (america's) many, many faults,
>we have a gut feeling for protecting people's
>freedom and human rights around the world.

Hugh? Who gave us that mandate, Roberto? But maybe you are right. I feel, too - am doing precisely that, here. Who is right than between us? Probably who can back his opinion better.


>and that is exactly why so many people in this country,
>despite our paranoia about terrorism, were and are revolted
>by things like abu gariv, guantanamo bay, treatment of
>prisoners, and on and on and on.

Yes, this is at least correct. I don't have paranoia about terrorism tough.

>we are extremely critical of our own govt.

Yes, this is correct

>(as i wish!! more people in serbia would be)

Yes, THEY ARE. EVER VISITED SERBIA? (I wonder....) You sound like you never set your feet there, contrary to your claims. What part of Serbia did you visit?

>we have got to get rid of bush, and his awful mentality!!!

Yes, he will be gone for sure. We will contribute with the vote on Nov. 4 that his mentality won't return.



>but as for the west, most of us supported the people who were victimized by serb aggression

What does the word "Serb" mean to begin with, Roberto? Are you sure you understand your sentence? Please explain. Thanks. This is a "TBD" for you.

For the other part of that sentence the answer is... "Depending on, when and where". Albanians were badly treated by milosevic regime. Many Serbs, too. At some point Albanians were victimized by certain FEW Serbs. At an other point many Serbs and many Albanians were victimized by certain Albanians. The current leading opinion is "we bombed the wrong side".

Ataman,

That’s a long list of preconditions to start an honest and sincere debate.
“Without unilateral interests of bush-man clan (not USA!) being applied and the K-Albanian delegation discouraged from any concession”.
You don’t really believe that Bush has a vital interest in Kosova, do you? Just as you must not believe that he loves us and hates your side?
Where is the sense in that? Under that analysis America’s interest would have been better served by an alliance with Serbia. Insignificant to America as that might be, Serbia is potentially much more important than Kosova will ever be. That argument becomes even more pressing if we bring Europe into the equation.
You have to look a bit closer to home for the reasons my friend. I am afraid that your reputation precedes you.

Are we to believe that Serbia’s offer of autonomy was a sincere and an honest one,
Partition idea being floated lately doesn’t corroborate you honesty/ sincerity claim.

Back to your points again. You precondition honest talks with removal of Thaci, Haredinaj, Ceku, but you forget that they are a byproduct of Serbia’s failed policies. Furthermore, up to 2006 all the negotiations were carried out by late president Rugova. Apart from indignity of parading him in front of cameras, Serbia did have any other use for him. I wonder why? Maybe your honesty code did allow you to deal with a scarf wearing man.

I appreciate your effort in learning something about Kanun. Contrary to popular belief Kanun doesn’t regulate our day to day life. Nor does it stipulate our relations with neighbors.

As for Serbia’s sympathies, I have to say that being vocal in here doesn’t amount to a quantified support for Serbia among Europeans. Excluding other regulars of religious convictions (which I respect), the only merit of this unholy alliance, is that it has managed to bring together an unlikely bunch of neo-Marxists and right wing supporters.

Spain should not have an issue with free Kosovo, Kosovo is not Bascue country, or Catalunia or Galicia at least not on recent history facts.

for Western democracies human life is more valuable than a stone in a church or a mosque.
(james, 5 October 2008 20:10)

Odd stones are in these Serbian churches, James. See the picture.

http://tinyurl.com/4nz5rc

This is KOSOVA CATALANYA- so keep away, far far away

Kosovo independence is a major precedent for Basque independence. There should be negotiations between Serbia and Kosovo and not what there was before which was the Ahtisaari plan to give Albanians everything and Serbia nothing charade.

>> "Kanun" does not distinguish between men"

Actually it does. Unless you defend your honor you are no longer a man. So Albanians who picked up their guns to fight whether in Scanderbeg's time, 1878 - 1918 against Serbs, Turks and Montengrins, the Kacaks, those that fought Tito in Drenica, and than KLA are real men (regardless of what others say). For Serbs the best man would be collaborators.

Kanun says that all men are equal meaning that no one has the right to insult or dishonor another, but unless you get back your honor, you are no longer a 'man.'

If someone wants taxes, your guns, your women or your freedom you are supposed to fight for it. That is why Albanians gave up religion (a non-Albanian concept) but kept guns with which they could defend what was dearest to them. Albanians paid taxes only at the point of they bayonet and any attempt to disarm meant rebellion.

Hello Village-Bey, it's a pleasure to see you here again.


> You don’t really believe that Bush has a vital interest in Kosova, do you?

I, honestly do and have evidence (google on Camp Bondsteel, follow the tree) which did convince me. Besides the economic interests, there are two more:

a) show the Muslim world "we support a Muslim country" (weak idea - Albanians are centric to their traditions, less to religion).

b) Albanian lobby is reported to be more numerous than Serb/Croat/etc, later being further divided, not even always across "Serb/Croat" lines.


> Just as you must not believe that he loves us and hates your side? 


Odd sentence. I have American citizenship (and other, too - neither Russian nor Serb). I have citizen's rights to criticize bush and vote accordingly. But if you mean just "Albanian side" versus "Serb side" this is not a correct approach, IMO either. Because bush is 100% indifferent to even own people. I do not want to say more - only privately, hope one day I will have chance. Provided, I did not violate any of "Kanun" rules so I can visit K. safely :-)


> Under that analysis America’s interest would have been
> better served by an alliance with Serbia. Insignificant to
> America as that might be, Serbia is potentially much more
> important than Kosova will ever be.

See above. It's not. Further, Serbia is a pretty safe "target" for "war-by-proxy" with Russia, precisely like unfortunate Georgia (by the other side). That does not excuse Saakashvili to be an idiot, of course.


>That argument becomes even more pressing if we bring Europe into the equation.

>You have to look a bit closer to home for the reasons my friend. I am afraid that
>your reputation precedes you. 


Europe does not equal European politicians. It was endlessly debated over and over. We can observe over 6 years of strong anti-American feelings, esp. in France and Germany. The relationship at one point was almost hostile. You probably remember "freedom fries" instead of "French fries". The relation across the Atlantic had to be fixed the least painful way - for European Union and USA, I mean.



>Partition idea being floated lately doesn’t corroborate you honesty/ sincerity claim.

Any better idea which would help to move the train forward is welcome.


>You precondition honest talks with removal of Thaci, Haredinaj, Ceku,
>but you forget that they are a byproduct of Serbia’s failed policies.

Here almost agree. That "glorious" trio is a by-product of failed socialism in Yugoslavia, failed milosevic-regime, failed ethnic politics, autistic approach of Kostunica - as well as of certain foreign help, beginning with American neo-cons and ending with Saudi Wahabbites. Besides, "Serbia" is not and cannot be a clear term. How do you define, who is a "Serb" and who is not?

You can rightfully blame Kostunica for many things, but at least there is no visible blood on his hands. You cannot say the same about the t-h-c.

>Furthermore, up to 2006 all the negotiations were carried out
>by late president Rugova. Apart from indignity of parading him
>in front of cameras, Serbia did have any other use for him.
>I wonder why? Maybe your honesty code did allow you to deal
>with a scarf wearing man.

Here the blame goes on certain Serbian politicians as well. Why you call it "indignity" that Rugova had extended exposure, beats me. With all due respect to him, he was not without some eccentric habits tough. There was also some bad luck, too.

An other thing: on the paper, all Central European countries are "democratic" since late 80-s/early 90-s. The reality: many ghosts of Socialism are still out there. Serbia begun it's new life 8 years ago. The progress is (compared with other countries) truly amazing. Instead of disturbing the process with UDI-s Albanians should actively participate and secure own future.



>As for Serbia’s sympathies, I have to say that being vocal in here
>doesn’t amount to a quantified support for
>Serbia among Europeans.

I am not talking B92. Jump to any travel-related web site (esp. in Germany) and look around.

>the only merit of this unholy alliance, is that it has managed to bring together an
>unlikely bunch of neo-Marxists and right wing supporters.

I think, most would disagree to be sided with "neo-Marxists" or "right-wingers". I still would call the current "leadership" in Kosovo "Marxist-Leninist" tough. Not just all usual signs are there, they begun their political carrier that way - and while in Switzerland.

On 5 October 2008 17:18, Ataman wrote:

"Interestingly, most regulars here who are not associated with (ex)YU are very skeptical. Wonder, why the K-Albanian cause has so few friends in the "West" among private people?"

I assume that includes me?

I tend to keep quiet on the issue of the outcome of any UN/ICJ ruling because I think it is futile to try to convince Serb nationalist that they are fighting a lost cause. I see all these posts by ZK UK, usaSERB, Candian Serb, Dragan, Kate, etc, etc all proclaiming that the USA is an failing empire, that Russia and China is the new world power, that Kosovo is dead, that Kosovo is Serbia, that Kosovo will soon be back under Serbian rule, and so on, and so on.

Instead of trying to convince nationalist that they are wrong, I will simply let time run its course, and it will (I believe) show how utterly wrong they were.

Ataman,

first of all Kanun is dying, it is a non-argument, whatever exotic stories you may hear or read. It was a product of certain society and living conditions and resource exploitation, that don't exist anymore. And it wasn't only about vengeance, but many other things as well.

Second, you say "a) the debate would be a honest debate, without unilateral interests of bush-man clan (not USA!) being applied and the K-Albanian delegation discouraged from any concession"
The debate went on for a long time with Kostunica and his people. Can you imagine what kind of debate that was? Hint for you: Kostunica kind of honesty, old school "honesty".

You say, "b) if K-Albanians scene wold be free from figures known in Serbia as war criminals."

Of course they are known in Serbia as war criminals, do you really believe in Serbia's definition of "war criminal"? Hint for you: Radovan Karadzic, Ratko Mladic, Zeljko Raznatovic(Arkan), Biljana Plavsic, Vojislav Seselj, Momcilo Krajisnik, Radislav Krstic, Franko Simatovic, Radomir Kovac, Milorad Krnojelac, Milomir Stakic, and many others...Please google them, if you have never heard of their names.
Another hint for you: action-reaction(to keep it simple), everything that is happening now is a product of the policies of a stronger state(Serbia) towards a part of its "people"(Kosovo Albanians). Villabe-bey is right here.

I assume that includes me?
(Jan Andersen, DK, 6 October 2008 12:00)

Not, of course. There are enough who know the area to a good degree, who even served in KFOR and are more on "Serb" site. Besides, everyone so far whom I asked to define, what does it means "Serb" failed. It is IMO a misnomer.

I can understand well, why people associated with YU immigration from your list are frustrated: what is happening beats normal logic and if I would be a Yugoslav in immigration I would think the same way: if "western" governments are so ignorant (at best), than probably the world is collapsing. But it does not mean I agree with what they write. I know enough about Russia - more than 99.99% of the posters here - to not see it as an "emerging power" or "savior of justice". But it is not an "evil empire" either.

>first of all Kanun is dying
(gjyste vulaj, 6 October 2008 09:03)

Good to know, but please debate with Dashnori i Satam, he is wrong.

See this link,

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=53951

post #2. It was a bit of shocker for me to see, how little is the readiness to re-conciliate.


>whatever exotic stories you may hear or read
(gjyste vulaj, 6 October 2008 09:03)

Yes, from my point of view, the views of many like Dashnori i Satam are exotic. But he writes them a very passionate and beautiful way, I have to admit.


>The debate went on for a long time with
>Kostunica and his people.
>Can you imagine what kind of debate that was?
(gjyste vulaj, 6 October 2008 09:03)

Yes, as I wrote: "autistic approach of Kostunica". For you it is not necessary to knock on the door which is already wide open.

Finally: you provided a long list of names, all should be written in small letters, like "nemecsek" (you probably read the book I refer to). You know the stories better than me, so please pick the names (feel free to write in small letters!) who aren't dead, under arrest or in hiding. I see none, but maybe I am wrong.

On your side, however I can immediately pick the glorious trio of haradinaj, thaci, ceku. They are celebrities and every attemt to call them "criminals" will be interpreted as offense against Albania and Kosovo.

Tapas size truths.
Spain propagates the same Serbian myths when it comes to Kosova.
It is interesting to notice the attempt to reinitiate and old legalist argument, namely that of Kosova being a province of Serbia thus with no legal right to succession.
That continues to be the case, regardless the fact that Kosova’s claim to independence was based on secession, therefore on self determination. This emphasis is a deliberate misinterpretation that serves to shield Spain from acknowledging Kosova’s claim to external sovereignty. A proper debate for Spanish diplomacy would have been whether Kosova deserves the privilege of external self determination. Spain’s desire not to engage this debate is consistent with her unitarist stances aimed at Basque, Catalan claims based on the same right. What is puzzling is the Spain’s willingness to rally support for a corrupt cause.
The other misleading statement is that "Serbia's partition did not come through agreement or an arrangement, which is allowed under international law, nor is the declared independence legitimized by a UN resolution".
This couldn’t be further from the truth. Declaration of independence was preceded by 8 year period of debate and negotiations. It also ignores the fact that independence is a supervised one based on detailed constitutional agreements and a plan envisaged by UN envoy to Kosova Martii Antisaari.

Spain is in big trouble regarding kosovo we all know...maybe in some few years there will be Catalunia-Andalusia-Basconia and the remain will be Spain..So Serbia's battle is its battle..but..with no hopes...

Let's not forgett that even Spain opposes UDI, they also oppose to set Kosovo under Serbian rule. Spain as a NATO member supported and participated on the military action to liberate Kosovo in 1999. The "chief Kosovo ally" is still in great opposition to you and is there stationed in Kosovo to protect Albanians from Serb troups!

This is KOSOVA CATALANYA- so keep away, far far away

"Interestingly, most regulars here who are not associated with (ex)YU are very skeptical. Wonder, why the K-Albanian cause has so few friends in the "West" among private people?"
(Ataman, 5 October 2008 17:18)


So few frnds in the west?? i thought that this was particularly funny and ironic since here, in frisco, well, you just can't get more "west" than that, at least from our POV. lemme put it this way -- from my job, on any given day, unless it is super-foggy, you can see the most-amazing pacific ocean, and at times you almost feel like you can see to china, or japan, or the korean peninsula, i'm not exactly sure. so, in reality, we are so far west, we're almost east! funny how these things work on ole planet earth.

ok, so i may not be perfectly typical of everyone in the "West" being that i'm jewish, being that i'm outspoken, being that my family was decimated in the holocaust (our "beloved" poland) -- BUT it is true that despite our (america's) many, many faults, we have a gut feeling for protecting people's freedom and human rights around the world. and that is exactly why so many people in this country, despite our paranoia about terrorism, were and are revolted by things like abu gariv, guantanamo bay, treatment of prisoners, and on and on and on. we are extremely critical of our own govt. (as i wish!! more people in serbia would be) and therefore i and many others hope and pray (to "allah" if you wish) that the republicans are thrown out, and for a very long time, and that the obama/biden team offers a much more democratic and open alternative. we have got to get rid of bush, and his awful mentality!!!

but as for the west, most of us supported the people who were victimized by serb aggression, despite the intense propaganda coming out of belgrade and the diaspora here. and we continue to feel that way, despite what certain posters imply.

to my colleagues from kosovo/a, keep up the good work, and never give up your freedom!

thank you.

roberto
from the far, far west :)
robertoruss@yahoo.com

Spain should not have an issue with free Kosovo, Kosovo is not Bascue country, or Catalunia or Galicia at least not on recent history facts.

It must be getting more and more apparent to the Albanians that Kosovo's birth as a "state" was stillborn.

Even the US and western Europe cannot overturn UN law, as much as they'd like to try to do so, the rest of the world knows what lies in store if they let the US and EU "create" Kosovo - a complete breakdown in the world's order and ensuing chaos.

Assuming that Serbia get's it's wish to go to the ICJ and gets a favourable legal opinion, the Albanians like to claim it will have no bearing on Kosovo's future.

They couldn't be further from the truth. Ask yourself why the EU and US are so determined to stop Serbia going to the ICJ if it's legal opinion isn't binding? What harm could a non binding ruling be? The simple answer is investment. If the ICJ rules that Kosovo's declaration was illegal, NOBODY will invest in Kosovo and it is this that will kill Kosovo because the EU and the US will not create a state only to plough billions of dollars into it to keep it alive. What will they get in return? Not much. The only real asset Kosovo has is Trepca. No western mining company will invest in Kosovo knowing that Serbia will take them to the cleaners in their own domestic courts.

So an ICJ ruling is a life and death decision for the "state" of Kosovo. Looks like the plug is going to be pulled from the life support system.

>> "Kanun" does not distinguish between men"

Actually it does. Unless you defend your honor you are no longer a man. So Albanians who picked up their guns to fight whether in Scanderbeg's time, 1878 - 1918 against Serbs, Turks and Montengrins, the Kacaks, those that fought Tito in Drenica, and than KLA are real men (regardless of what others say). For Serbs the best man would be collaborators.

Kanun says that all men are equal meaning that no one has the right to insult or dishonor another, but unless you get back your honor, you are no longer a 'man.'

If someone wants taxes, your guns, your women or your freedom you are supposed to fight for it. That is why Albanians gave up religion (a non-Albanian concept) but kept guns with which they could defend what was dearest to them. Albanians paid taxes only at the point of they bayonet and any attempt to disarm meant rebellion.

On 5 October 2008 17:18, Ataman wrote:

"Interestingly, most regulars here who are not associated with (ex)YU are very skeptical. Wonder, why the K-Albanian cause has so few friends in the "West" among private people?"

I assume that includes me?

I tend to keep quiet on the issue of the outcome of any UN/ICJ ruling because I think it is futile to try to convince Serb nationalist that they are fighting a lost cause. I see all these posts by ZK UK, usaSERB, Candian Serb, Dragan, Kate, etc, etc all proclaiming that the USA is an failing empire, that Russia and China is the new world power, that Kosovo is dead, that Kosovo is Serbia, that Kosovo will soon be back under Serbian rule, and so on, and so on.

Instead of trying to convince nationalist that they are wrong, I will simply let time run its course, and it will (I believe) show how utterly wrong they were.

Zoran

Once again your comments are spot on. I couldn't agree more.

Proud albanian

You say that George Bush is the President of the world. This is the President that has brought the US to the brink of bankrupcy. In the end he may well need help from the Kosovo albanian narco-people traffickers to make donations to the US budget. God knows they need it! Anyway, I refer you to the below article. It may prove to be eye opening for you.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,581502,00.html

Every now and then I stop by at these pages to read what the readers have to say about the events in Balkans. And very time I get shocked to see so much indifference towards events that led to the current situation. With regards to Kosovo, Serbs seem to forget that only 10 years ago they ruled Kosovo with an iron hand consequences of which are very well known. Just to refresh your memory with some of these things, so in less than 3 moths of war more than 12 thousand dead civilians, including babies as 6 months old, more that 1 million Albanians expelled from Kosovo, thousand women raped and millions of euros in damage to the property of non Serbs in Kosovo all perpetrated and orchestrated by the highest echelons of Serb Government at the time.

Furthermore every peacefully attempt to negotiate a just settlement between Kosovo and Serbia prior to the NATO intervention was deliberately ignored by Serbia. Serbia refused to deal with Kosovo issue within Yugoslav federation since student revolts of 1981, and its response to the requests of Kosovo Albanians for agreement about the fate of Kosovo was 1989 occupation which put entire Kosovo under a martial rule that would lead to the closure of schools, TV, radio and laying off of more that 300000 Albanians from their jobs including local police (clear moves aimed at destroying the very pillars of Kosovo’s fledgling society).

On the first half of 90’s, late Kosovo President Rugova had reached an education agreement with Serb Government through mediation of St. Eugidio to allow education on Albanian language which was prohibited after Serbia abolished Yugoslav constitution of 1974 and striped Kosovo of its autonomy within Yugoslavia in 1989. The agreement was never put in use, Serbia rejected own agreement. Then there was Rambouillet, Serbia rejected everything from those talks only to offer the same, what was offered then, 10 years later. This is grandiose hypocrisy. Serb politicians when dealing the international community forget that they are not dealing with gullible people that they are used too in Serbia and unaware of this restore to tactics that work in Serbia.

International community is not filled with myths and false interpretation of history about Kosovo. Furthermore, for Western democracies human life is more valuable than a stone in a church or a mosque. Viewed from this angle their acceptance of independent Kosovo is natural outcome of events that preceded it and not a conspiracy against Serbia as Serbs believe it to be.

Why there is such an indifferent attitude and antipathy from Serbs (as displayed across the board on the posting on this web site and others) towards not only Albanians in Kosovo but towards all non Serbs in former Yugoslavia, I don’t know but I would hold responsible the government of Serbia and news media for not doing enough to shed more light on some of the events that were done on behalf of the Serb people and then perhaps there would be a better understanding of current reality.

It is very sad to see that event current pro western government (labeled as such at least) and media supporting this government use Kosovo frequently in the same fashion as governments before did and in the same fashion as Milosevic’s government did mainly for scoring cheap political points in domestic politics. And people in Serbia still buy this type of politics. News about some things said with regards to Kosovo, or who recognized it and who did not, top headlines while trials of former military and police members for their crimes against civilians in Kosovo go unnoticed or receive very little attention. Sad state of affairs in Serbia!

Looks like the plug is going to be pulled from the life support system.
(Zoran, 5 October 2008 13:56)

This is IMO regardless of ICJ decision. But ICJ decision in favor of Serbia won't make it much worse. For the near future: Kosovo will remain a place in limbo, without recognized railway:

http://tinyurl.com/3wseok

without recognized automotive insurance ("green card")

http://tinyurl.com/46fvkd

with visa in Kosovo travel documents needed even to visit a bathroom (at best) - but impossible to reach any major European country by car because the roads are blocked by countries who do not recognize these documents.

So all this of course greatly "encourages" doing business in Kosovo/with Kosovo - regardless the ICJ outcome.

The people may feel OK, the private help is coming in - but this is clearly not "business as usual". There is no way it can be until they do not sit down with Serbs to negotiate without interference of USA. USA has absolutely no incentive to change the status and decrease the dependency. Who claims the opposite is naive.

The probable positive outcome of ICJ ruling is a good tool for Serbia to apply some pressure internationally. A negative outcome (from Serbian point of view) of ICJ ruling won't put Kosovo out of limbo.

Declaration of independence was preceded by 8 year period of debate and negotiations. It also ignores the fact that independence is a supervised one based on detailed constitutional agreements and a plan envisaged by UN envoy to Kosova Martii Antisaari.
(village-bey, 5 October 2008 16:12)

You would be 100% right, village-bey if:

a) the debate would be a honest debate, without unilateral interests of bush-man clan (not USA!) being applied and the K-Albanian delegation discouraged from any concession.

b) if K-Albanians scene wold be free from figures known in Serbia as war criminals.

c) you may argue, these war criminals are not really war criminals because they were not sentenced. Pro-forma you are right, but we all know that major witnesses were silenced and some "gentle" force applied to the court. It could save thaci and haradinaj and ceku some long years behind the bars, but it does cost you much more.

Albanians like to pose in heroic mountain warrior pose and show the world the tough stance, "Kanun", high morale, etc. Unfortunately some of their "leaders" fail miserably. "Kanun" does not distinguish between men, so apply it to Serbian side symmetrically and these ceku / haradinaj / thaci / etc gangsters shouldn't be celebrities.

Clean up your own act and you may expect better things. Interestingly, most regulars here who are not associated with (ex)YU are very skeptical. Wonder, why the K-Albanian cause has so few friends in the "West" among private people?

Ataman,

That’s a long list of preconditions to start an honest and sincere debate.
“Without unilateral interests of bush-man clan (not USA!) being applied and the K-Albanian delegation discouraged from any concession”.
You don’t really believe that Bush has a vital interest in Kosova, do you? Just as you must not believe that he loves us and hates your side?
Where is the sense in that? Under that analysis America’s interest would have been better served by an alliance with Serbia. Insignificant to America as that might be, Serbia is potentially much more important than Kosova will ever be. That argument becomes even more pressing if we bring Europe into the equation.
You have to look a bit closer to home for the reasons my friend. I am afraid that your reputation precedes you.

Are we to believe that Serbia’s offer of autonomy was a sincere and an honest one,
Partition idea being floated lately doesn’t corroborate you honesty/ sincerity claim.

Back to your points again. You precondition honest talks with removal of Thaci, Haredinaj, Ceku, but you forget that they are a byproduct of Serbia’s failed policies. Furthermore, up to 2006 all the negotiations were carried out by late president Rugova. Apart from indignity of parading him in front of cameras, Serbia did have any other use for him. I wonder why? Maybe your honesty code did allow you to deal with a scarf wearing man.

I appreciate your effort in learning something about Kanun. Contrary to popular belief Kanun doesn’t regulate our day to day life. Nor does it stipulate our relations with neighbors.

As for Serbia’s sympathies, I have to say that being vocal in here doesn’t amount to a quantified support for Serbia among Europeans. Excluding other regulars of religious convictions (which I respect), the only merit of this unholy alliance, is that it has managed to bring together an unlikely bunch of neo-Marxists and right wing supporters.

Ataman,

first of all Kanun is dying, it is a non-argument, whatever exotic stories you may hear or read. It was a product of certain society and living conditions and resource exploitation, that don't exist anymore. And it wasn't only about vengeance, but many other things as well.

Second, you say "a) the debate would be a honest debate, without unilateral interests of bush-man clan (not USA!) being applied and the K-Albanian delegation discouraged from any concession"
The debate went on for a long time with Kostunica and his people. Can you imagine what kind of debate that was? Hint for you: Kostunica kind of honesty, old school "honesty".

You say, "b) if K-Albanians scene wold be free from figures known in Serbia as war criminals."

Of course they are known in Serbia as war criminals, do you really believe in Serbia's definition of "war criminal"? Hint for you: Radovan Karadzic, Ratko Mladic, Zeljko Raznatovic(Arkan), Biljana Plavsic, Vojislav Seselj, Momcilo Krajisnik, Radislav Krstic, Franko Simatovic, Radomir Kovac, Milorad Krnojelac, Milomir Stakic, and many others...Please google them, if you have never heard of their names.
Another hint for you: action-reaction(to keep it simple), everything that is happening now is a product of the policies of a stronger state(Serbia) towards a part of its "people"(Kosovo Albanians). Villabe-bey is right here.

Spain's position on the Kosovo UDI is vey clear and it won't change regardless of any pressures. All national parties are in agreement that the 'Kosova' separatism will not be recognized unless Serbia does it first.
(Besides, it is clear to anyone here that an American military base, can't be an acceptable reason for the creation of a new nation)
The reason for this is clear. Spain has its own potential 'Kosovas'(Basque and Catalan) and they have no intention of committing hara-kiri('a la yugoslava') for the pleasure
of Washington (or Brussels).
Spanish sympathies, in general, are inclined towards the Serbs, ever since their forsenic commission gave out their Kosovo report that there was no genocide committed there by the Serbs (although there might have been war crimes). Washington was visibly irritated by this Spanish show of independence to the statement of the U.S.secretary of defence William Cohen who claimed that over one hundred thousand of Albano-Kosovars (of 'military age')might have been executed by the Serbs.
Also, here in Spain, the 'Albano-Kosovares' have a very bad reputation as drug-dealers, burglars and 'malhechores' and there is hardly any weak that the local TV doesn't report some of their exploits. Of course, all nations have these characters, but not in such a staggering number as our 'Kosova nation' seems to produce.

for Western democracies human life is more valuable than a stone in a church or a mosque.
(james, 5 October 2008 20:10)

Odd stones are in these Serbian churches, James. See the picture.

http://tinyurl.com/4nz5rc

"It also ignores the fact that independence is a supervised one based on detailed constitutional agreements and a plan envisaged by UN envoy to Kosova Martii Antisaari" THIS is what Spain was referring to. The Albanians accepted the Ahtisaari plan but NOT the Serbs which is why it didn't pass for a plan at the UNSC, and which is why it has NO legitimacy under UN law.

And it's disingenuous to suggest that there was any "negotiation" when the US openly states that it will recognise an independent Kosovo. I don't blame the Albanians for thinking they can attain independence with US backing, so why should they compromise with Serbia.

Unfortunately, this is what a ruling at the ICJ in favour of Serbia will do - nullify Kosovo as a state whether the EU and US like it or not.

Hello Village-Bey, it's a pleasure to see you here again.


> You don’t really believe that Bush has a vital interest in Kosova, do you?

I, honestly do and have evidence (google on Camp Bondsteel, follow the tree) which did convince me. Besides the economic interests, there are two more:

a) show the Muslim world "we support a Muslim country" (weak idea - Albanians are centric to their traditions, less to religion).

b) Albanian lobby is reported to be more numerous than Serb/Croat/etc, later being further divided, not even always across "Serb/Croat" lines.


> Just as you must not believe that he loves us and hates your side? 


Odd sentence. I have American citizenship (and other, too - neither Russian nor Serb). I have citizen's rights to criticize bush and vote accordingly. But if you mean just "Albanian side" versus "Serb side" this is not a correct approach, IMO either. Because bush is 100% indifferent to even own people. I do not want to say more - only privately, hope one day I will have chance. Provided, I did not violate any of "Kanun" rules so I can visit K. safely :-)


> Under that analysis America’s interest would have been
> better served by an alliance with Serbia. Insignificant to
> America as that might be, Serbia is potentially much more
> important than Kosova will ever be.

See above. It's not. Further, Serbia is a pretty safe "target" for "war-by-proxy" with Russia, precisely like unfortunate Georgia (by the other side). That does not excuse Saakashvili to be an idiot, of course.


>That argument becomes even more pressing if we bring Europe into the equation.

>You have to look a bit closer to home for the reasons my friend. I am afraid that
>your reputation precedes you. 


Europe does not equal European politicians. It was endlessly debated over and over. We can observe over 6 years of strong anti-American feelings, esp. in France and Germany. The relationship at one point was almost hostile. You probably remember "freedom fries" instead of "French fries". The relation across the Atlantic had to be fixed the least painful way - for European Union and USA, I mean.



>Partition idea being floated lately doesn’t corroborate you honesty/ sincerity claim.

Any better idea which would help to move the train forward is welcome.


>You precondition honest talks with removal of Thaci, Haredinaj, Ceku,
>but you forget that they are a byproduct of Serbia’s failed policies.

Here almost agree. That "glorious" trio is a by-product of failed socialism in Yugoslavia, failed milosevic-regime, failed ethnic politics, autistic approach of Kostunica - as well as of certain foreign help, beginning with American neo-cons and ending with Saudi Wahabbites. Besides, "Serbia" is not and cannot be a clear term. How do you define, who is a "Serb" and who is not?

You can rightfully blame Kostunica for many things, but at least there is no visible blood on his hands. You cannot say the same about the t-h-c.

>Furthermore, up to 2006 all the negotiations were carried out
>by late president Rugova. Apart from indignity of parading him
>in front of cameras, Serbia did have any other use for him.
>I wonder why? Maybe your honesty code did allow you to deal
>with a scarf wearing man.

Here the blame goes on certain Serbian politicians as well. Why you call it "indignity" that Rugova had extended exposure, beats me. With all due respect to him, he was not without some eccentric habits tough. There was also some bad luck, too.

An other thing: on the paper, all Central European countries are "democratic" since late 80-s/early 90-s. The reality: many ghosts of Socialism are still out there. Serbia begun it's new life 8 years ago. The progress is (compared with other countries) truly amazing. Instead of disturbing the process with UDI-s Albanians should actively participate and secure own future.



>As for Serbia’s sympathies, I have to say that being vocal in here
>doesn’t amount to a quantified support for
>Serbia among Europeans.

I am not talking B92. Jump to any travel-related web site (esp. in Germany) and look around.

>the only merit of this unholy alliance, is that it has managed to bring together an
>unlikely bunch of neo-Marxists and right wing supporters.

I think, most would disagree to be sided with "neo-Marxists" or "right-wingers". I still would call the current "leadership" in Kosovo "Marxist-Leninist" tough. Not just all usual signs are there, they begun their political carrier that way - and while in Switzerland.

Roberto, you are not a "unique case", believe me. Neither with American citizenship, nor with a view of Pacific Ocean, nor with other things. No need to re-iterate these every time. It does not support your cause, just the opposite.

Instead what you achieve - you strongly alienate your potential "allies". Now your biggest opponents are among democratic, liberal-minded Serbs, Russians, etc. I am one of the "etc". Mike from USA - an other, for instance. "bganon" a third and so on. You do much more damage to your cause than good.

>BUT it is true that despite our (america's) many, many faults,
>we have a gut feeling for protecting people's
>freedom and human rights around the world.

Hugh? Who gave us that mandate, Roberto? But maybe you are right. I feel, too - am doing precisely that, here. Who is right than between us? Probably who can back his opinion better.


>and that is exactly why so many people in this country,
>despite our paranoia about terrorism, were and are revolted
>by things like abu gariv, guantanamo bay, treatment of
>prisoners, and on and on and on.

Yes, this is at least correct. I don't have paranoia about terrorism tough.

>we are extremely critical of our own govt.

Yes, this is correct

>(as i wish!! more people in serbia would be)

Yes, THEY ARE. EVER VISITED SERBIA? (I wonder....) You sound like you never set your feet there, contrary to your claims. What part of Serbia did you visit?

>we have got to get rid of bush, and his awful mentality!!!

Yes, he will be gone for sure. We will contribute with the vote on Nov. 4 that his mentality won't return.



>but as for the west, most of us supported the people who were victimized by serb aggression

What does the word "Serb" mean to begin with, Roberto? Are you sure you understand your sentence? Please explain. Thanks. This is a "TBD" for you.

For the other part of that sentence the answer is... "Depending on, when and where". Albanians were badly treated by milosevic regime. Many Serbs, too. At some point Albanians were victimized by certain FEW Serbs. At an other point many Serbs and many Albanians were victimized by certain Albanians. The current leading opinion is "we bombed the wrong side".

>first of all Kanun is dying
(gjyste vulaj, 6 October 2008 09:03)

Good to know, but please debate with Dashnori i Satam, he is wrong.

See this link,

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=53951

post #2. It was a bit of shocker for me to see, how little is the readiness to re-conciliate.


>whatever exotic stories you may hear or read
(gjyste vulaj, 6 October 2008 09:03)

Yes, from my point of view, the views of many like Dashnori i Satam are exotic. But he writes them a very passionate and beautiful way, I have to admit.


>The debate went on for a long time with
>Kostunica and his people.
>Can you imagine what kind of debate that was?
(gjyste vulaj, 6 October 2008 09:03)

Yes, as I wrote: "autistic approach of Kostunica". For you it is not necessary to knock on the door which is already wide open.

Finally: you provided a long list of names, all should be written in small letters, like "nemecsek" (you probably read the book I refer to). You know the stories better than me, so please pick the names (feel free to write in small letters!) who aren't dead, under arrest or in hiding. I see none, but maybe I am wrong.

On your side, however I can immediately pick the glorious trio of haradinaj, thaci, ceku. They are celebrities and every attemt to call them "criminals" will be interpreted as offense against Albania and Kosovo.

I assume that includes me?
(Jan Andersen, DK, 6 October 2008 12:00)

Not, of course. There are enough who know the area to a good degree, who even served in KFOR and are more on "Serb" site. Besides, everyone so far whom I asked to define, what does it means "Serb" failed. It is IMO a misnomer.

I can understand well, why people associated with YU immigration from your list are frustrated: what is happening beats normal logic and if I would be a Yugoslav in immigration I would think the same way: if "western" governments are so ignorant (at best), than probably the world is collapsing. But it does not mean I agree with what they write. I know enough about Russia - more than 99.99% of the posters here - to not see it as an "emerging power" or "savior of justice". But it is not an "evil empire" either.

I have a lot of respect for Spain's foreign policy stance. I wish our spineless leaders would have done the same and stood up to the USA - taking troops out of Iraq and so forth.

Spain seems perfectly happy neither to head towards Russia, China or the USA and to follow its own path. Why can't the UK do this???

Kosovo independence is a major precedent for Basque independence. There should be negotiations between Serbia and Kosovo and not what there was before which was the Ahtisaari plan to give Albanians everything and Serbia nothing charade.