President Boris Tadić has hinted at the possibility of a partition of Kosovo, but only if all other options linked to Kosovo’s status have been exhausted.
Jovan, I guess you must be kinda moderator...I get censured when I address you...let's this time."
I can assure you, I am not a moderator here, since I would never betray my fellow Serbs.
"- I stay calm while responding you on that: Kanun is more about the Albanian's (trade-mark) BESA: we never deny our word.
It does happen also that we are in vendetta situation. In this case our house becomes our castle. But this habit is in disuse now."
well this habit in disuse? just recently I saw a documentary about albanian policemen who had to protect a schoolyard since one of the children going to that school had to be protected because of a vendetta-problem. they even had to accompany this completely innocent boy home, where his father was sitting several years without having left it during that time.
personally, I think that this tv-doc is not wrong.
I leave it to the others to decide whether you are deliberately denying that, or just do not know what you say here.
" It cannot be used against us...unless an intrigue is involved."
you don´t get it it seems: nobody has to use that against you - you are harming yourselves. but that is your problem.
I asked you several times (some of them censured) to show facts about this pretension of yours: No official Serbian State Map (exclude flashlight invasions) have been shown us in this blog which include Kosovo/a before 1912. Until this date Serbia had a General Consulate in Pristina."
now,what is that??? are you kidding?
of course there is no official map before 1912, since Serbia had not liberated it´s southern province before that time. it was occupied territory until that date, and the Ottomans were the occupiers. which part of that you do not understand???
"The Anglo-Saxon nations have won all the wars the last 250 years."
like in Vietnam, Korea or at present in Iraq and Afghanistan, right?
"You're right to hope USA will change mind about Kosovo/a. If they do, it'll be fine, Kosova will change hands again. It was not Serbian or Albanians in Kosova, it was Russia or the West. The West prevailed this time."
I do not only hope it, it will happen. but I agree with you, it will be fine, even fine for the K-albanians too.
"Unless you show where we Albanians come from (so we can go there and build our vacations house or claim our cradle- as you are doing in Kosova) we'll remain Illyrians's sons and very comfortably so.
(gjon cima, 1 October 2008 17:06)"
Gjon Cima, if you don´t know it ... what shall I say? you come from the caucasus mountains, of course..
just like most of the other european nations, including the Serbs.
you may dream of being the descendants of the illyrians, I can understand that, given that your history is not that rich of great achievements, but nevertheless, it remains an illusion.
I do not have to prove anything here, my dear, just GO and READ some SERIOUS books about the Albanians, not that noel-malcolm-nonsense that is paid by the albanian lobby anyway.
if you want to check it, go and do a little bit of research, it was scientists from Chicago, who declared your illusionary illyrian myth as outdated.
OWN research would be great for you, instead of always pecking the "resources" that dilettantishly serve your illusion, like the often cited encyclopedia britannica in it´s edition from 1920-something...
that´s all the Albanians here have provided so far! pretty weak, if you ask me!
las but not least: please notice that I have nothing against Albanians in general. I am explicitly pointing that out in order to prevent you of accusing me as being a racist ( other Albanians here have done that, obviously not knowing that it is not about race at all... )
once again, I am NOT in any kind linked to B92. I admit I was a little bit upset when I read that part of your comment, that´s why I wrote that much now, although I am tired as a dog ( I do spent too much time on you anyway ), but this had to be said.
"Jovan;...….. Historical facts,our language, our name (ALBANI were one of many ILLYRIAN tribes) suggest that we are indead the true heirs to this lands. DARDANI the ILLYRIAN tribe that always lived in Kosovo take their name from the pear orchards.It was once a Majestic land streaching as far north as the Danube.You will find historical facts very healthy if you researched Latin or ancient Greek texts.
(pleurat, 1 October 2008 16:36) "
Sounds like a fairy tale to me. Thats why every building, historical structure and monument of significance was built by Serbs eh? the albanian historical footprint in kosovo is virtually nill.
Well I'd like to thank participants for a quite frank discussion of characteristics of the people who live in our part of the world.
But I would ask again, if we can drop the retoric when we choose, could we not honestly and openly discuss what should be the future of Kosovo in the same way some of us are doing here?
Why can we not negotiate and see if we can come to agreement? If we fail, then at least we made the attempt but I say again we have not had real, genuine negotiations, just as we have had few frank discussions on this topic.
A real solution is possible and we have to believe that, or things will never change.
It will never happen: one, this is much worst from a precedent perspective, it involves REALLY changing the borders and EU hates that idea.
(Dashnori i Ceces, 1 October 2008 12:57)
international borders can be changed if there is mutual consent of all parties involved. that wouldn't be a precedent for anything from the legal point of view. and the eu doesn't mind changing the borders or no eu state would recognise kosovo, which is a precedent no matter what everyone says precisely because there is no consent of all concerned parties.
i understand albanians want independence, but that's not a reason to be out of touch with reality.
"Albanians seem to see it the same way, since they constantly stay calm when I confront them with the fact"
Jovan, I guess you must be kinda moderator...I get censured when I address you...let's this time.
- I stay calm while responding you on that: Kanun is more about the Albanian's (trade-mark) BESA: we never deny our word.
It does happen also that we are in vendetta situation. In this case our house becomes our castle. But this habit is in disuse now. It cannot be used against us...unless an intrigue is involved.
"...let´s stick to the facts, my friends, and that is no question about being "moderate" or not..., Kosovo is Serbia, all of it. and that is not only a historical fact, it is also a legal fact..."
I asked you several times (some of them censured) to show facts about this pretension of yours: No official Serbian State Map (exclude flashlight invasions) have been shown us in this blog which include Kosovo/a before 1912. Until this date Serbia had a General Consulate in Pristina.
"so, it is only a question of time, until the US as the main force behind this socalled "independence" have to accept the inevitable - they will sooner or later have to change their policies".
The Anglo-Saxon nations have won all the wars the last 250 years. You're right to hope USA will change mind about Kosovo/a. If they do, it'll be fine, Kosova will change hands again. It was not Serbian or Albanians in Kosova, it was Russia or the West. The West prevailed this time.
"...the Balkans, and especially Serbia will be a wealthy and prosperous region, once the Albanians let go their illusion of being the Illyrians´s sons and finally realize that it is Serbia they are living in."
Unless you show where we Albanians come from (so we can go there and build our vacations house or claim our cradle- as you are doing in Kosova) we'll remain Illyrians's sons and very comfortably so.
It only takes a few minutes to look up those regions and familiarize yourself with them. Pec and Decani (as you seem to know since you call them by their Albanian names) are in Kosovo, they border with Serbia and Montenegro. I seem to recall that Bar was called Anti-Vari in the old days, although I could be wrong on that.
As far as RS and Krajina goes, look up Ustashe and WWII and you’ll see why Serbs there fought so incredibly hard not to suffer Genocide again. It was a 1000% worse than anything that happened in the 90’s. My wife’s family is from that region, and I can tell you her grandfather and his generation suffered incredibly and vowed “never again”.
You should have at least a basic understanding of the history and background on the region if you’re going to comment intelligently on the situation.
While Pec is nearly all Albanian currently, in any partition plan, the previous un-cleansed population must be taken into account. Serbs did have a significant population there before the KLA had their fun. This type of total cleansing should not be reward, regardless of what side committed those acts.
I would even go so far as to say we should take the ethnic cleansing and genocide committed during WWII into account. Serbs used to be the single largest ethnicity in Bosnia before the Ustashe’s policy of “Kill one third, Convert one third, Cleanse one Third”.
Anything short of a complete re-drawing of the maps in the Balkans will result in another war sometime in the future.
Do we all want to see the great EU experiment end the same way “Brotherhood and Unity” did? Do we really want to be responsible for something like that?
Again, I say, partitioning the Balkans along ethnic lines benefits BOTH Serbs and Albanians. Why don’t we stop haggling over the crumbs the “Great Powers” are tossing us and start to work together to come up with a real plan for peace and stability based upon mutually agreed upon conditions?
I suspect the Western Powers want the Balkans stable enough for business, but not stable enough to defend her own interests in a united EU.
Think Long Term and stop trying to get revenge on each other.
Jovan;.......................Historical facts,our language, our name (ALBANI were one of many ILLYRIAN tribes) suggest that we are indead the true heirs to this lands. DARDANI the ILLYRIAN tribe that always lived in Kosovo take their name from the pear orchards.It was once a Majestic land streaching as far north as the Danube.You will find historical facts very healthy if you researched Latin or ancient Greek texts.
come on, kids... that´s something you should really forget about. as this new guy, Tesla, wrote it. "no partition, end of story".
as far as I am concerned, ...now you are suddenly finding out what you have in common? how funny is that!
of course we all have some ( rather negative ) things we share, and as a civilized and progressive european, I am certainly not proud of that.
interestingly, many Albanians seem to see it the same way, since they constantly stay calm when I confront them with the fact, that a great number of male Albanians cannot leave home, because of the kanun-tradition, since they are only safe at home.
let´s stick to the facts, my friends, and that is no question about being "moderate" or not..., Kosovo is Serbia, all of it. and that is not only a historical fact, it is also a legal fact, UNSC 1244 CONFIRMS it.
so, it is only a question of time, until the US as the main force behind this socalled "independence" have to accept the inevitable - they will sooner or later have to change their policies.
and the Balkans, and especially Serbia will be a wealthy and prosperous region, once the Albanians let go their illusion of being the Illyrians´s sons and finally realize that it is Serbia they are living in.
only then, there will be peace and stability in the region.
---"I personally like the idea of giving Pec and Decani to my homeland, Montenegro in exchange for Bar to the Albanians and parts of the north to the Serbians."
It will never happen: one, this is much worst from a precedent perspective, it involves REALLY changing the borders and EU hates that idea. Overall, Albanians don't care about empty land provided the people are inside the right state and land is made up somewhere else, but EU has settled this: Independence for Kosova, fast EU and billions in investments for Serbia and hope that people get along once they are rich.
Even if it was allowed, all sides would be haggling over every single house and break off the agreement. Wasn't Bar known as Tivar? Many Albanians died defending Plava, Ulqin, Gucia, Podgorica and half of Malesia. Oh well.
You share more than just the clan system, vendeta and besa with the Albanians (and especially Malesori and Kosovars)
@Matthew - the reason that I haven't mentioned RS is that is almost an unknown entity to me. I wouldn't know where to find it on a map. Similar with a lot of the other local geographical references thrown up here (Malësia, Ulqin/Ulcinj, Preshevë, Medvegjë, Bujanoc, Pejë, Deçan, ...). They might be familiar to you, but for me they fall into the "There Be Dragons Here" category.
There is already defacto partition and parallel institutions so Serbia cannot gain anything in making it official. It is only logical, in terms of Serbian interests to therefore reaffirm that 100% of Kosovo is a part of Serbia.
If only I had more time to post and to email folks. It is good however, to hear moderate Albanian voices here. Bganon also has my deep respect, although we differ on many economic issues, our views towards society are very similar.
Actually, my perspective on the issue is probably most like Jan’s here, and I have to admit, at least his view is consistent in its application. I do think he’d find a more receptive audience here if he mentioned independence for RS as often as he mentions Kosovo.
You see Jan, we Serbs are a little sensitive about such issues, we feel that its “Independence for Everyone” BUT Serbs.
It does seem to me that partition is the most logical course of action, and I’m glad Tadic finally let it out of the bag. It of course makes it more likely Serbia will get a favorable solution in the ICJ. It does seem to be a solution that everyone can *live* with, but no one will love it. It also leaves plenty of opportunity for negotiation on what form that partition will take.
In most cases I agree with Jan, however, I do feel that areas of significant cultural identity deserve to take other factors besides merely ethnicity in its determining a final status.
Keep in mind genocide includes cultural destruction, so clearly an ethnicity’s identity is important and must be considered.
That’s why I support the establishment of Israel as a State even though traditionally Jews were not a majority, and wouldn’t be if all the ethnically cleansed Palestinians and their descendents were allowed back into Israel. That is also why I find the issue of East Jerusalem so vexing, its inhabited by Palestinians, but important culturally to the Jews, and the Muslims and the Christians. What to do? I like to see it as the Capital of the UN and an independent State in itself. Its sacred to the majority of the world and should belong to all of us.
That’s also why the issue of Pec and Decani are going to require some creative thinking.
Serbs are going to need some way of feeling that our important Churches there are truly free and independent.
Vatican status perhaps? That might put the general Serb population at ease with the situation.
Trade for something super important? Nis? Lot’s of farmland? Enough cash for the people of Pec and Decani to buy Castles on the Coast and live good forever?
I’d be very interested in hearing some creative ideas from the Albanian side on how to deal with those regions. Of course, rights for minorities and freedom of religion are absolute givens already in any resulting situation.
I personally like the idea of giving Pec and Decani to my homeland, Montenegro in exchange for Bar to the Albanians and parts of the north to the Serbians.
Montenegrins and Albanians aren’t really so different, and we share clans for Christ’s sake. We, more than anyone else helped shape and form the so called “Kosovo Myth”, why not be their guardian? We’re a tourist based economy and already have Ostrog, why not add two very important cultural sites? We have a very bright future, I think we’re next after Croatia in getting into the EU. Most certainly the standard of living would be best for those people under Montenegro than anyone else.
Partition of Kosova open even more the pandora box. Serbs with Serbs, Croats with Croats , Macedonia just a small little nation with a new name... montenegro a small little nation like luxemburg,,, i mean really where we are going with partition? Albania and Serbia will benefit of it so will Croatia,, but Macedonia, Montenegro and Bosnia will be the big losers.. I dont think partition it will happen based on this.. If it does all balkan map will be redrawen.
"Will you stand firm behind Muslims taking a piece of Denmark and making it their own country when they become a majority there?"
I will not stand behind anyone TAKING anything.
I will stand behind anyone that uses their democratic right, their right vote, and whatever other political influence they can muster, to implement whatever changes they deem necessary. That includes changing the Danish constitution, renaming it to Muslimland, or paint it in green and yellow.
The only point of contention would be if they wanted to change the constitution and remove universal humans rights such as my control of my own body, my freedom of speech, my right to own property, my right to behave as I wish inside my own 4 walls, etc, etc.
Dashnori, you write "Mike,that is not doable for one reason: geography. RS is in one area. You cannot have 25 RS's in a small country like Kosova."
I agree it does present a problem. Were all Serbs and cultural landmarks on one area contiguous to Serbia, I'd say cut the line right there and recognize the rest right away. Case closed.
Maybe Matthew's option isn't so bad after all - redrawing boundaries along ethnic lines, but while I completely agree with his proposal of including Pec and Decani in either Serbia or Montenegro, Louie raises the equally valid point of there being 99% Albanians there! Kind of hard to uproot unless some adequate compensation is made - Presevo maybe? Either that or just take the sliver where the monasteries are or something.
Then there's always Gracanica, which is inconveniently in the middle of everything. Suddenly it just get all the more messy.
Rather than the "dozens of RS" models as Dashnori infers, I'd prefer one Serbian government that speaks on behalf of all provinces and enclaves, most likely based in Mitrovica. Let's be honest, all enclaves in central and southern Kosovo MUST cooperate with the EU to some degree. The only other option is for all the Serb families to pack up and leave, and let me tell you that BG doesn't want them.
Therefore: one Kosovo, two seats of power (Pristina, Mitrovica). The EU High Commissioner has executive authority, while Thaci and Ivanovic have authority in their own jurisdiction.
Right now, it's as plain as day the two sides will NOT cooperate. Even with the most moderate Serb and Albanian leaders in power, the current differences are insurmountable. I'm calling for each side to manage their own affairs for the time being and think of possible reintegration in a generation or two.
The only other doable option is Matthew's suggestion.
Hi Matthew,long time no see!
It is nice to have you back.
I like your idea,but when it comes to Pec/Peja and Decani it will be difficult!
Thanks to Mr.Haradinaj there is hardly a Serb soul left in that area!He is our hero if you know what I mean!
Kosovo is the newest country in the World and is place for everyone who lives there!
The biggest task is how to integrate Serbs in Kosovan Institutions and once that is done,we will be just fine!
By the way I am very impressed with the comments of bganon,he is the new Mike and Matthew I liked!
Cheerio from London!
Does Tadic's support for Serbs in Kosovo end at the Iber river?
Is Serbia's love for its sanctuarities in Kosovo replacable with some piece of land?
Is Tadic maybe trying to sabotage his own iniciative on the GA with such provoking (not only Albanians) statements, just to get rid of Kosova the easiest way?
Those questions should be easily to answer by people, who support division on ethnic lines, don't they?
there is no state "kosova", it´s an occupied part of the state of Serbia.
next: you don´t have to go back further in history, since the K-albanians, or to be more precise, all Albanians lack to be the descendants of the Illyrians. that´s wishful thinking.
the Illyrians were assimilated by all the nations that arrive d in the balkans.
it´s the same with todays Albanians, the only reason why some part of their language has similarities with illyrian languages is, that the Albanians had no consolidated community or put another way: they were a loose tribe without any national identity.
that´s why they took over illyrian words, while all others nations have their own.
but trying to sell this legend of "honest serbian historians who "amit" ( check your spelling my friend ) that the Albanians were there before - is simple nonsense.
in the late 80ies, US-american historians and archeologists were researching in southern Serbia, and they found nothing whatsoever... nothing that indicates towards anything our dear albanian friends here believe to be.
the illyrian myth is outdated, my dear albanian friends. you should learn the truth about your ancestry, and not believe in nonsense...
the only reason Mr Tadic asked for partition is to scare Macedonia and Montenegro that they might end up been seperated on ethnic groups. A smart person and a good politican can see that.
"Hey Danish man (are you really Danish, incidentally ?)"
Sure is. I can trace my ancestors back some 400 years here.
Boriska: "(...) they might start carving their own piece of land, merely because they have become a majority :-)"
Yep, that is the beauty of democracy. Just as the Israeli Jews are about to realize, that soon the Palestinians living in Israel will suddenly be in majority and can implement their wishes through a democratic process.
Boriska: "So, do you think many of Danish will happily give their land away, as you suggest Serbs should ?"
I don't speak for anyone but myself, but it really doesn't matter if people are happy about it or not. If the majority decides that this is how it is supposed to be, then there is not much anyone can do. Besides, it is not a question of "giving" anything away. If a minority in Denmark becomes large enough to aspire to some kind of division of Denmark they will most like own substantial land areas in/around the area where they plan on creating their own little country.
--
Tadic by mentioning this has he accept the fact that Kosova is legaly independent.
he has at last said that what serbians intention was all the time: to get the northern part with Trepca mine which is very rich with minerals! It will never happen!Never Ever! remmember Kosova is not alone! How correct will sound if Tadic would be sugested to partion Serbia in to Sanjak (going to Bosnia, Northern Vojvodina to Hungary, Presheva region to Kosova, Vestern Macedonia to Kosova and Albania, Ulqin, Plava , Gucia and Tivar(Bar) to Albania, Chameria to Albania. This would mean Serbia would lose 50 prosent of its todays teritory.
Kosova is stronger now and has strong friends and relatives!
"Jan, You are legally wrong about that. 'Europe' does not own any land, apart from maybe the EU owning the sites of their various buildings."
Geographic areas do not own land.
kate: "Countries own land (and please don't throw back moral arguments about people owning land - I am talking about reality and law, not populist theory)."
But I will throw that back at you! I have an owners deed on my property, legally signed and sealed by the Notarius Publicus. And only in exceptional cases can the Danish state force me to sign over my property and in that case they will have to compensate me financially or otherwise.
People own property. PERIOD.
kate: "Legally Kosovo remains part of Serbia. The UN, EU, US and all other parties know that this is the case."
And Greenland legally belongs to Denmark? And therefore Denmark, and only Denmark, should decide if the Inuits can have independence? How about the Faroe Islands in the North Atlantic? The inhabitants there have no right to decide for themselves if they want independence or not? Allow me to repeat what I said earlier to ZORAN:
I will always maintain that it is the people that lives in the affected areas that have the final say. Russians on the Chrimia peninsula, South-Ossetians(?) in South-Ossetia Catalonians in Catalonia, Inuits in Greenland, Kosovo-Albanians in Kosova, and SERBS in MITROVICA. Very simple really.
kate: "Why do you think that EULEX is not able to deploy? Because they are acting under the UN, and the UN fully recognises that Kosovo remains part of Serbia."
Ohhh - they are able to deploy, they are just playing nice for the time being trying to work out some kind of agreement. If and when the decission is made that enough is enough, they will be all over Kosovo. It is not something I hope for though. I prefer a mutual and peaceful agreement.
kate: "Would you be happy for a single ethnic group to cut off 15% of your territory wherever you live? Obviously so."
Obviously I would. If some ethnic group decided to buy up 60-70% of one of the larger Danish islands and settled there as the local majority, I would be the first the congratulate them. I assume you already know my motto: "Independence for everyone, twice on Sundays".
--
Got to laugh at these Albanians and Krasniqi in particular - you guys having the cheek to talk about borders when your so called state lies within the territory of another country (SERBIA) a UN member.
It's like they believe they can say black is white.
WAKE UP!
Stay in prison and believe the hype that leads down a dead end street!
Jan from Denmark. It's funny how you avoided answering that particular question.
Will you stand firm behind Muslims taking a piece of Denmark and making it their own country when they become a majority there?
According to your moral code you should be very vocal in approving this. Please do answer that question.
bganon, all I can say is that you were obviously sleeping (or still very young) throughout the 90s and missed the point that negotiations do not really work with the Western dictators. They prefer to do what they want and negotiations are not an option.
Nothing has really changed so the choice is to be subservient and you'll have a job or to resist and defend your freedom. Sure, resisting was more difficult in the 90s but now with the dictatorship crumbling we simply need to stand firm as time is on our side.
I can only speak for myself, but I'm not really into slavery.
Bganon,
I do agree with a lot of what you say. I’m sorry if you thought that I was suggesting anything towards you personally. I was objecting to your position and its’ implications.
I do not agree with your attempt to create a casual link between the possibility of Serbs south Mitrovica having 2nd 3rd class citizenship and their desire leave or not to remain inside the new state.
I do not exclude the fact that you have valid reasons to prejudge the new state but too many of your variables are up in the air. All in all your link does not stand to scrutiny
1. you believe that this scenario will happen in all likelihood.
2. this condition would be prevalent and unchanged.
3. under the new sovereignty kosova will remain backward and poor, so resentful and with little prospect for Serbs.
4. current constitutional guaranties are not to be trusted.
5. current European stewardships and oversight are not good enough.
6. cooperation will between two people will be on a minimum
7. sociological contacts nonexistent
and we can go on for much longer
If you are on the other hand trying to suggest that your grievances are perceived ones, I am sure that those ones can be addressed. Perceived grievances are not convincing augments to preempt partition. It will be like trying to undo hundreds years of history. After all Kosova has been always shared by Serb and Albanian.
As for you other point of “But hey we could easily turn this argument round and I could insist that Kosovo should remain in Serbia and Albanians be treated with full rights - and that would be genuine”, I do hope that we have moved on from discussing that one.
"So you will have a perfect chance to prove your words by helping to split beatiful Denmark into pieces to accomodate Muslim demands"
1. Albanians aren't 'Muslims,' they are Albanians
2. Serbs fought Croatia and Slovenia (both Catholic) over land
3. Albanians are AUTOCHTONES in Kosovo, so if you bring up history go a bit further back.
4. Serbs almost went to war with Montengro, 100% brothers, and the Churches are still bickering.
5. There is no such thing as "Serbian land" or "Bulgarian land" for that matter. No one ones it for ever, people who live there do. You can look at how many rulers and nations have 'owned' Kosova over the centuries.
serbia don't want kosovO,how serbia can want something what's already serbian property?,it is a serbian province only occupied at this moment.
others have done it in history and now is USA doing it.
history will repeat, kosovo is serbian!
Have Malësia, Ulqin (Ulcinj), and other Albanian inhabited areas of Montenegro, along with Preshevë valley, Medvegjë and Bujanoc, and the big chunk of Macedonia go to Kosova/o. Give Serbia the northern part (though I am not sure about Pejë and Deçan - most of the people living in both places are predominantly Albanian ... not sure how that would work out …), RS, and if possible, Krajina. Yank part of Vojvodina and give it to the Magyars and voila ... we can finally leave this territory non-sense behind and stop being the laughing stock of Europe.
Actually partition would be a reduced Serbia as stands. There is no way that Serbia should have to give up any of her land at all - I just can't see an option other than partition and special status for the enclaves.
But diplomacy so far has been very smart - I would like to know what Vuk Jeremic has in mind.
Mike - I agree that there may be some sort of other solution, perhaps even already on the cards. But Bosnia appears to be in chaos and mess - not a good precedent.
Hey Danish man (are you really Danish, incidentally ?) -judging by the way things go in Europe, soon you will see Muslims becoming majority in your home country of Denmark...and then, they might start carving their own piece of land, merely because they have become a majority :-) So you will have a perfect chance to prove your words by helping to split beatiful Denmark into pieces to accomodate Muslim demands..."legitimate grievances of opressed minrities", on the Euro-speak. So, do you think many of Danish will happily give their land away, as you suggest Serbs should ?
"However, Kosovo leaders have dismissed Tadić’s remarks concerning a partition, labeling them “unacceptable“. "
With Rugova passed away, there aren't many leaders in Kosovo whom I can call "leader". They are mostly gangsters. Serbian government should discuss the matter with legit government of Albania, not with gangsters. Their place is in Serbian or Albanian prison.
That discussion did not happen yet. Other forces including all Camp Bondseel have to go home. At their current state, both Serbia and Albania can discuss what to do without the danger, things go upside down in Kosovo.
Ultimately, the solution between Albania and Serbia (and Montenegro and Macedonia and BiH) is a single borderless entity, consisting of several self-governing entities with division on ethnic/whatever-to-be-decided administrative lines. Camp Bondseel does not have a place there - even if some K-Albanians feel, it adds to their security. It actually does not, but it takes time to discover it.
"The best case solution is still a dual-administrative system, something like Bosnia. Knowing the Serbs I know, they're happy with an RS status for Serb sectors of Kosovo"
Mike,that is not doable for one reason: geography. RS is in one area. You cannot have 25 RS's in a small country like Kosova. You are right about independence, US (UK, Germany, France, Turkey, Japan, Canada, Sweden etc etc) will not change it's mind, and even then ultimately Albanians will say no even if US changes it's mind. Wars are over for the Balkans as long as NATO /EU are intact. They only way is to have EU monitor human rights OR work out an exchange with the Albanians: Presevo for N Mitrovica and maybe a strip to Decani for Montenegro. EU hates this because Hungarians might want to join Hungary, Albanians in Montenegro Albania etc.
>>> Albanians have a long track record of having poor relations with their neighbors
Serbia is the only one to have declared to ALL it's neighbors, and sent tanks there. If people hate us because we don't expect second class citizenship, that's actually a compliment.
On 30 September 2008 16:58, Dino Hamilton, Canada wrote:
"(..) I can't think of any ethnic group in this World that can claim two nations of their own."
I can, I can even think of 3: Denmark, Norway and Sweden. We have been at war with each other for hundreds of years, we have swapped land areas countless of times, yet we speak almost the same language, eat almost the same kind of food and drink the same kind of beer, and since 1958 we have had free travel without the need of passports (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union).
PS: Icelanders belong to the same ethnic group, but they have a somewhat different language. So that makes it 4 countries.
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First wanting All kosova, then agreeing to partition and get at least some of Kosova. The next and final step is agreeing to give up all Kosova.
Kosova is an independent country and there is no need for the serb government to waste time, efforts and money to try to get back Kosova because it will not happen.
You seem to have no problem with a minority within the minority to be given these guarantees, but you object to the minority as a whole having these guarantees in the first place.
Village bey, Far from it Serbs inside Kosovo should have the same rights as Albanians outside. It works every which way for me - whatever solution we end up with. What I want to guard against is second / third class status for say Albanians in N Mitrovica and Serbs in S Mitrovica - if there is some kind of division or not.
No pride isn't my specialty, as you should know by now. I settle for jobs, prosperity and peace. I leave the overblown sense of pride to the misguided.
But hey we could easily turn this argument round and I could insist that Kosovo should remain in Serbia and Albanians be treated with full rights - and that would be genuine. However, the fact is that Albanians don't want to remain in Serbia and the fact is that neither do Kosovo Serbs (or Belgrade) want to live in a new state called Kosova. So lets compromise.... There are not a whole lot of options.
I don't have pre-conceptions of Albanians. I have Albanian friends and am not interested in those false differences. I also think that Albanians perception of Serbs will change over time, but for many Albanians, I hope you will agree, the clock stopped in 98/99. That is useful in terms of not having to look at ones own behaviour, by the constant portrayal of a people as victim. A people with a real or imagined grievience, as you know, are not exactly easy to live with.
ZK Come on don't be funny, you know very well (as do most people here, even if they don't agree) that my position on Kosovo pre-dates Tadic's statement.
I'll admit a few times something I have said Tadic has come out with some days later, but with respect, that hardly makes me his follower. It does mean he is getting something right though!
He's hardly likely to stand down just after being elected is he? I mean you called for his head practically moments after he was elected, just as you called for this government to fall within seconds of its election. Calm down and give the man a chance.
And your language 'now is time to stand firm'... Come on. Thats what we heard in the 90's and look where that got us? Does it look like we stood firm? Does it look like the anti-negotiation attitude worked for us? Quite the opposite, in the 90's we didn't need to stand firm, we needed to negotiate and the same applies today. How many thousands of lives could have been saved if we had focused on negotiations, not patting ourselves on the back for having one of the largest armies in Europe? How many Serbs and other nationalities could still be living in their homes over the former Yugoslavia?
But I really don't have the slightest clue on your statement that Serbia was looking to partition Kosovo or Yugoslavia in the 90's. Who told you that?
It was the Serbs who lost most by the collapse of Yugoslavia? Only a turkey votes for Christmas.
If I recall, it was russian FM Lavrov who suggested this move first. No sense in attacking Tadic for someone else's idea. Secondly, this statement may have simply been political posturing to give the RS political fuel to seperate from BIH. As I understand it, most of the inhabitants for RS want out anyways. Dodik has been pretty quiet about a referendum or seperation in the last few months, they may be planning something after the October elections especially in light of the "bosniak" president statements at the UN GA last week. Once the UN/EU money pool dries up...we'll see what happens in RS.
Mr Andersen nothing you have said has countered any of my arguments. The issue is very straightforward. Due to Albanian nationalism, Albanians want to creat a Greater Albania by illegally annexing Kosovo, hoping to gain legitimacy and ultimately to join Albania.
Following YOUR line of logic, if this is acceptable then you should be blocking Croatia's accession to the EU, granting the creation of the state of Krajina and the partition of Bosnia.
Yes, Serbia does want to join the EU and the EU should rightfully have a say in the Balkans but should not break international law in the process.
As for Europe, make your mind up. Either it is a "club" in which case you state it should have a say in Serbia's internal affairs, or it's a loose Geographical area, in which case it shoudln't , similar to the US having no say in Canada even though they are part of North America.
Ukraine - when did i suggest the partition of it along ethnic lines? Never. i don't support Russia on this issue, or in relation to SO and Abkhazia.
Catalonia - increasing self determination but they are DENIED independence.
So, like I keep repeating, Kosovo is a legal part of Serbia as recognised by the highest laws on this planet and as such only Serbia can determine Kosovo's future, not the US< EU or anyone else.
As an aside here are a couple more facts. 1) Stock options don't last for 20 years.
2) $700 Billion is the headline figure, the estimated total cost to the US will be nearer $4 TRILLION and as total US debt is roughly $10.5 Trillion, that is an enormous increase even for the US and will create a lot more trouble than you seem to understand.
That economic lesson/discussion you'll have to find elsewhere. it'll take ages to describe the possible full effects to you.
The population in Kosovo needs to be restored to represent the serbians that were ethnically cleansed by the albanian terrorists. Then it needs to be partitioned. After the partition an economic embargo needs to be placed on the albanian side of kosovo and let europe deal with the new welfare state it has created. Then Serbia needs to expel any illegal albanians in serbia proper. Serbia will be better off not having to deal with the Albanian question any longer.
Albanians have a long track record of having poor relations with their neighbors. Montengro, Macedonia, and Greece are next. Illiteracy, welfare, high crime rates, high birth rates, organized crime, religious and ethnic intolerance are all associated with these albanian statelets. And as far as the post about albanians not starting problems they just finish them. Pretty easy to act tough with NATO doing all of the hard work for you. Before NATO intervention all the world saw was the mighty KLA running, crying, and hiding. But once again thats the type of chest thumping we have come to expect from our albanian friends.
ZK UK: I agree with you on many things but I have to say that bganon makes some sense when s/he says:
"If Serbs and Albanians decide some kind of division is the best solution then the internationals should back off and not impose their own solution.
"By the way if Kosovo is eventually split a condition would be maintaining the highest degree of rights for minorities that remain outside their 'mother' country. Without guarantees of this kind no deal should be signed."
It's not my country, and therefore my point of view is not necessarily the same as if I were Serbian. But with the ICJ ruling coming up I think that it's exactly the right time for Tadic to show willing.
Mentioning partition as an option is a gesture of being open to new realistic discussions and if it were to happen there would need to be many conditions attached.
That most certainly would not include any deal on Presevo or other areas that are part of Serbia.
Morally all of Kosovo should remain part of Serbia, but I think that realistically a partition may be the only option. I hope that I'm wrong, but better to have a deal that gives Serbia the upper hand in negotiations.
The other thing which I know that you'll strongly disagree with, is that I think Tadic and Jeremic are doing a pretty good job in a very difficult situation.
Would the Serbian commentators on this side favor a partition of Presevo valley in exchange for Leposavic or a partition of Sanxhak(Novi Pazar)in exchange for RS(Banja Luka), or do the Serbs wish the Magyars in Vojvodina to form their own country also. If the answer is YES, well don't blame the Albanians about the word PRECEDENT, that has been used so often. If the answer is NO then there is no problem unless you can not live without a problem.
Partition OK, but a reciprosity partiton for all the region:south Serbia,Macedonia,MonteNegro,Bosnia&Herzegovina,Kosova and Croatia.
But what does it mean mr. Tadic "Only War".
I think that we should use minority grups as a conetction line between our nations and not for a territorial partition.
Thank you!!!
Partition of the Balkans along ethnic lines benefits both the Serbs and the Albanians. Let us together set a peaceful precedent on how the future of the Balkans in Europe will look.
Give the Albanians Presevo and half of Macedonia, and we’ll take the North, Pec, Decani and RS.
Tadic has very good timing on his proposal, and I think it will give strength to our arguments at the ICJ.
OR…
Bring the entire Balkans into the EU in one shot, and change the voting districts every 10 years based on Ethnicity, that really is the most sensible stable solution. A sort of Super Yugo and at the same time a mini EU…
I'm not a fan of partition for a number of reasons. The most obvious being a paritition would naturally be drawn at the Ibar where Serbia takes everything north, and abandons everything south. To me this is unacceptible because it effectively abandons all enclaves and sectors in the central and southern parts of Kosovo, will generate a major demographic shift all all remaining Serbs, and leaves the most important monasteries and cultural monuments at the mercy of Albanians and the goodwill of the international community.
Also, as much as I would like otherwise, I'm afraid "substantial autonomy" is no longer a viable issue. Unless something catastrophic happens, the US will not relent on its push to prop up Kosovo as a state.
The best case solution is still a dual-administrative system, something like Bosnia. Knowing the Serbs I know, they're happy with an RS status for Serb sectors of Kosovo: the north is theirs, the monasteries are theirs, and the smaller enclaves still have authority over their own affairs within the greater context of EU cooperation.
This may be Tadic's goal all along, but he can't actually say it yet. Let's see what transpires in the ICJ.
Don't do it Mr. Tadic!! Serbs weren't "allowed" independence in Krajna and aren't "allowed" independence in Bosna. The Albanians in Kosovo had all that they wanted and it's kind of funny because there doesn't exist the need to create a new country for them. This country already exists and it's called Albania. This truly has become a farce because I can't think of any ethnic group in this World that can claim two nations of their own...smarten up Tadic and don't give up.
>> The Serbs will not settle for less than 25% of the Kosovo land mass.
You are not even a Serb, but if it's divided they should to before N Mitrovica was excanged for Pesevo by Tito. Natural (i.e. above the river) and set (i.e. pre WWII) borders or nothing. No one will get a pencil and start haggling over land.
Kate, even honest Serb historians amit that the Alanians have lived there log before Serbs came in th eBalkans. It isn't an 'ethnic group stealing land,' it's an abused ethnic group becoming independent so they live in peace. No one can own land, it belongs either to the autochtones or to the people that live in it. Land changes legal ownership all the time (Kosova was Bulgarian, Byzatine, Serb, Turkish, Serb and soon Albanian)
This can work if Presevo is included, otherwise the Albanians will not agree and the time to negotiate is all but over. If Servs and Albanians agree, they can convince EU who hates 100% ethnic separation. Have Tadic offer this and Serbs solve their Albanian problem and Albanians have their country back.
We knew they cared about land by the way. All the partitions proposed by Serbs had th richest lands, not really the monasteries.
"Maybe Mr Andersen is preoccupied with his drastic reduction in wealth due to the credit crunch to have noticed his child like errors."
Thank you for your concern mr ZORAN, but my wealth is going nowhere. I took the precation 3 years ago to secure my home with a loan that runs for 30 years at a fixed interest rate. I supposed I could have achived an initially interest rate if I had chosen a short amortization period, but I opted for a slightly higher interest rate in return for fixed rate. And while the paper-money of my stock options might be tanking at the moment, I am not actually loosing anything since I have no plans for selling those next the next 20 years.
ZORAN: "As Kosovo is an inalienable part of Serbia, it's plain to see that the Serbs form the vast majority of Serbia, so to try to claim that a minority is a majority in a province as justification for seperatism is idiotic - which 120+ countries seem to agree with."
So this is true as well:
As Chrimea is an inalienable part of Ukraine, it's plain to see that the Ukrainians form the vast majority of Ukrania, so to try to claim that a minority (Russians) is a majority in a province (Chrimea) as justification for seperatism is idiotic - which 120+ countries (except Russia) seem to agree with.
It is good to know that ZORAN will vehemently oppose any attempt from Russia to include Chrimea into the Russian Republic.
Let's try that logic somewhere else:
As Catalonia is an inalienable part of Spain, it's plain to see that the Spaniards form the vast majority of Spain, so to try to claim that a minority (Catalonians) is a majority in a province (Catalonia) as justification for seperatism is idiotic - except for the fact that Catalonia is enjoying increasing self-determination from Spain exactly because they are an majority in their region.
ZORAN: "There is NO country called Europe. Europe is a conglomeration of states, and each state is answerable to a higher body than the EU - the UN. All EU states must abide by UN law which takes precedence over state law and EU law."
Actually.... Europe is a not a conglemerate of states, if anything, it is a loosely defined geographic area. If Serbia wants to be considered part of Europe, it is YOUR logic that dictates that the majority of the people in those European countries should have the final say in what Serbia can and should do. Your logic, not mine. I will always maintain that it is the people that lives in the affected areas that have the final say. Russians on the Chrimia peninsula, South-Ossetians(?) in South-Ossetia Catalonians in Catalonia, Inuits in Greenland, Kosovo-Albanians in Kosova, and SERBS in MITROVICA. Very simple really.
ZORAN: "Europe, morally or legally, has no jurisdiction over Kosovo."
100% correct. Only the people living in Kosovo has jurisdiction over Kosovo. And only the Serbs living in Mitrovica has jurisdiction over Mitrovica.
ZORAN: "(...) hence i'll reiterate for the illiterate, it's Serbia perogative and no-one elses, to determine Kosovo's fate."
Repeating the same nonsense 1000 times does not make it any less nonsense.
ZORAN: "Besides, the EU and the US are in no fit state to dictate terms to anybody at the moment. Also, Denmarks attention will soon be shifting away from Kosovo, further north to the arctic as it watches Russia claim every square metre for itself."
That might well happend. Seems like the typical behaviour from any big state, or conglomeration of states. My hope is that they will have the decency to ask the Inuits in Canada and Greenland what they think of their intentions.
ZORAN: "So with all the rouble that the EU and US have to contend with at the moment, they'll gladly take any offers from Serbia to partition Kosovo and have one less problem to deal with."
Actually, it is not that big a problem. That big bailout-plan that failed to get approved by the US congress, the 700 billion USD plan, is approximately 3.5 times the annual GDP of Denmark. And we are a small nation of just 5.5 million people. So in reallity, this "big" bailout is equal to having the US-of-A completely support our little country for 3.5 years. Do you really think that effort would break the US economy?
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‘By the way if Kosovo is eventually split a condition would be maintaining the highest degree of rights for minorities that remain outside their 'mother' country. Without guarantees of this kind no deal should be signed’.
Bgangon, You seem to have no problem with a minority within the minority to be given these guarantees, but you object to the minority as a whole having these guarantees in the first place.
Hmm, maybe this has something to do with your perceived sense of loss. Anything I can get would ease the pain and my wounded pride.
You rightly point out to the impracticality of having ethnically pure territories but then you go on wishing a little of this division anyway.
If I understood you right, this is nothing to do with ideology but only serves the greater good of normalizing situation in Kosova. Well I can sympathise with that plight. Northern tip of Kosova belongs to people who live there, but that doesn’t exclusively implies partition. The argument of destabilisation was used greatly before independence’s declaration, but failed to materialise. The place is relatively quiet and is getting better with time. The insistence on partition has in my opinion something to do with your perceptions of Albanians. But perceptions are not set in stone and change over time.
Your present government has gradually and successfully shifted the debate from your “Kosovo ideology and myth” into a debate over legality. If people are moving away from that ideology, that’s always progress in my eyes.
bganon, what are you talking about? Are you Tadic's shadow or something? Because you seem to continually support his ideas blindly and have no problem appeasing the dictators. That is weak as far as I'm concerned and now is the time to stand firm because time is on our side.
Yes, I support the defacto partition, sure, where Serbians and Albanians rule their areas of influence but only within the borders of Serbia. Why are we talking about formal partition now after it has been denied to Serbians in both Croatia and BiH after so many years of conflict?
Either we talk about partitioning the whole former Yugoslavia based on ethnic divisions (the pre-war makeup) or we don't talk about it at all.
There is no other option but to stand firm and to demand our territorial integrity because the Serbians otherwise get the worst of both worlds (i.e. denied it where we had large minorities but allowed it for minorities living in Serbia).
Tadic is weak and needs to move aside before he does some severe damage to Serbia. He is obviously not up to the task.
there can be no partition, because that would mean treason.
and I think even Mr. Tadic knows what would happen to him, if he betrayed his own people.
and there is absolutely no reason to divide anything: UNSC 1244 is very clear on this.
Serbia has the moral right, the law and history on her side. so if Mr. Tadic is proposing something like that and given that he does it in a time when the main opponents of a peaceful and legitimate solution are suffering of serious economical problems, it indicates that he is not following serbian interests.
let´s hope the serbian people say a loud and clear NO to this irresponsible statement.
Partition is not an option, this confirms that serbs have come to their last option, which i am sure it will fail. Kosova was and is albanian and never was serbian and we will never ever give up Kosova.
"Kosovo is European territory, it's Europe's prerogative to give away land, not for Serbians to demand parts of Europe. Europe will be dictating terms."
People like Danish Jan Andersen with their EU technocrat superstate thinking and mentality will become responsible for the complete downfall of Europe (in reality they have already started the process in 1991). Serbia is a sovereign country that is located in Europe and that is not a member of the EU or NATO. You or anybody else for that matter has to keep their nose out of our business. If you like it so much than please give away parts of your Danish kingdom to establish a new Muslim country or give away parts of your neighbors soil because Europe thinks that is a good idea (the Swedes and Germans will be quite upset). Or give away a part of Texas to the Hispanics, declare Basque region and Corsica independent, and so on. Stop being such an uneducated and ignorant person.
The only way Serbs will accept partition is if Bosnia is also partitioned. Republika Srpska wants desperately to join Serbia, and if that is packaged together with the partitioning of Kosovo, it may be acceptable. Otherwise, forget it, no deal. This is what Tadic should be telling the so called 'civilized west', if he has any brains at all.
I think during Mr Tadic's visit to New York, he got told partition or nothing by the loyal friend Russia.If this statement is true and he was not miss quoted than it makes a mockery of the ICJ initiative.As a Kosovar-Albanian i say thanks but no thanks Mr Tadic,Kosova has got no territorial intention towards Serbia and so should you towards any neighbouring country.One good thing that came out of this statement is that at last Serbia is excepting reality that Kosova is gone.
(miki,
The Serbs will not settle for less than 25% of the Kosovo land mass.
My dear Miki Serbia does not dictate the terms here,the world actually has to care of what the K-Albanians will settle for,remember Serbia does not decide for K-Albanians we got our President,and our own representatives that will represent the newest nation.
This is the last card in the hands of Serbian policy. And this will have dramatic implications in the region. I am sure Tadic is very well advised to use this card. And I am sure this is a typical Russian diplomacy. For any patriot in Serbia Kosovo can not be devided. And this is not because of loosing some other areas (Presheva and Bujanovc), which are such important, but because of a 1000 year history, which according to every history book in Serbia,(Kosovo) is the heart of Serbia. This option announced by an official is a pure provocation especially toward the Albanians in Kosovo, who according to the Serbian history, are very passionate and can create incidents. That´s the best could happen for Serbia especially in the phase of decisions in New York. This provocation will be extended with the next declaration. Annexation of Republika Srpska. Welcome to the next Balkan war started again from Serbs. This is the end of Tadic era.
What you and your friends in Serbia will do with 15% of the population in order to protect 15% of the territory. App. 14% are Albanians which do not want to be ruled anymore from the rest of 86%. Albanians part of this territory or as it was considered always by Serbs, second hand citizens. Hier is the big challenge for any democratic country where Serbia pretend to be. I`v never heard any declaration from any Serbian saying that we want Kosovo back together with Albanians.
Maybe Mr Andersen is preoccupied with his drastic reduction in wealth due to the credit crunch to have noticed his child like errors.
"This "we-are-a-majority-that-live-somewhere-else-but-we-still-get-to-decide-over-other-peoples-lives" is plain silly" This argument is plain stupid to any objective observer. As Kosovo is an inalienable part of Serbia, it's plain to see that the Serbs form the vast majority of Serbia, so to try to claim that a minority is a majority in a province as justification for seperatism is idiotic - which 120+ countries seem to agree with.
There is NO country called Europe. Europe is a conglomeration of states, and each state is answerable to a higher body than the EU - the UN. All EU states must abide by UN law which takes precedence over state law and EU law.
Europe, morally or legally, has no jurisdiction over Kosovo. As recognised by the UN, Kosovo is a province of Serbia, pure and simple, hence i'll reiterate for the illiterate, it's Serbia perogative and no-one elses, to determine Kosovo's fate.
Besides, the EU and the US are in no fit state to dictate terms to anybody at the moment. Also, Denmarks attention will soon be shifting away from Kosovo, further north to the arctic as it watches Russia claim every square metre for itself.
So with all the rouble that the EU and US have to contend with at the moment, they'll gladly take any offers from Serbia to partition Kosovo and have one less problem to deal with.
Serbia will be the main power broker at the table dictating terms to the Kosovar Albanians, not the EU, US or Albanians. You'd be mindful to know your place, learn some humility and come to reality to see the situation for what it is.
ZORAN wrote: "Kosovo is Serbian teritory, it's Serbia's perrogative to give away land, not for albanians to demand parts of Serbia. Serbia will be dictating terms."
You replied: "A little change of perspective, should show how foolish that argument is:
"Kosovo is European territory, it's Europe's prerogative to give away land, not for Serbians to demand parts of Europe. Europe will be dictating terms."
Jan, You are legally wrong about that. 'Europe' does not own any land, apart from maybe the EU owning the sites of their various buildings.
Countries own land (and please don't throw back moral arguments about people owning land - I am talking about reality and law, not populist theory). Legally Kosovo remains part of Serbia. The UN, EU, US and all other parties know that this is the case.
Why do you think that EULEX is not able to deploy? Because they are acting under the UN, and the UN fully recognises that Kosovo remains part of Serbia.
Would you be happy for a single ethnic group to cut off 15% of your territory wherever you live? Obviously so.
"(...) Kosovo is Serbian teritory, it's Serbia's perrogative to give away land, not for albanians to demand parts of Serbia. Serbia will be dictating terms."
A little change of perspective, should show how foolish that argument is:
Kosovo is European territory, it's Europe's prerogative to give away land, not for Serbians to demand parts of Europe. Europe will be dictating terms.
This "we-are-a-majority-that-live-somewhere-else-but-we-still-get-to-decide-over-other-peoples-lives" is plain silly. All you have to do is to change the focus, and you can make any minority a majority, and you can make any majority a minority.
This not a surprise, why do you think the Kosovars put the map of 100% Kosova in the flag...
I thought that Milosovic destroyed Serbia and Yugoslavia and as leader he was mad, with Tadic as an Albanian i actually respected his determination "not his ideas" but now this is absolutely the worst statement coming from a President that is going to the ICJ in two weeks time. He has just single handed brought the hole process of the so called diplomatic Serbian process on its knees.
If the Legendary President Ibrahim Rugova was alive he would probably think "they only ever wanted the gold,zinc, copper in the north part of Mitrovica" estimated at around £100billion value, we will never give up Mitrovica, there are still 100 thousand Kosovar Albanians still living in n.Mitrovica they are not going anywhere, otherwise as you know the Albanians will start on the serbs in the rest of the enclaves in the Republic of Kosovo...
I think Serbia will take most of the northern and western parts of Kosovo, while the eastern and southern parts will go to the Kosovo Albanians. The Serbs will not settle for less than 25% of the Kosovo land mass.
What this is about in my opinion is seeking a just solution to the Kosovo problem, about being able to move forward.
If Serbs and Albanians decide some kind of division is the best solution then the internationals should back off and not impose their own solution.
By the way if Kosovo is eventually split a condition would be maintaining the highest degree of rights for minorities that remain outside their 'mother' country. Without guarantees of this kind no deal should be signed.
This isn't about selling out Serbs living south of the Ibar or Albanians north of it. Nor is it about nasty ethinc theories about how one ethnic group should live here and another there.
Its about normalising the situation in Kosovo and letting people living there have ordinary lives of the kind seen in the rest of Europe.
Bes - George Bush's promises are worthless. he's a lame duck.
Wth the US effectively bankrupt, it's influence on the world stage is greatly diminished as evidenced by the preliminary vote at the UN the other day.
Whether Tadic claims he was misquoted, etc, i think partition would be a good idea and draw and would draw a line under the whole affair.
question is, who would get what? And to pre-empt any answers, i don't think any swap for Bujanovac, presevo etc would be on the table as Kosovo is Serbian teritory, it's Serbia's perrogative to give away land, not for albanians to demand parts of Serbia. Serbia will be dictating terms.
Either the whole of the former Yugoslavia gets partitioned by ethnic division prior to the conflict or nothing at all. Why would we now talk about partition after hundreds of thousands of Serbians have been ethnically cleansed from both Croatia and our Southern province?
Sorry, but Tadic has overstepped the line and is showing signs of weakness. There cannot be any division of our land to the detriment of Serbians only. We were fighting for the partition option back in the 90s but it wasn't acceptable back then so why should it be now?
The only option, both morally and legally, is for the Albanians to rule themselves within Serbia's borders (more than autonomy, less than independence), which is more than they have now or will ever get. Even this status-quo and defacto partition is better than what Tadic is proposing.
Tadic needs to step aside and to allow someone more capable to take his place.
Partition of Kosovo is opposed by both sides. Considering that, this statement effords much courage, so let's cool down and think about that.
Kosovo-matter can not be solved by insisting on formal or historical incidence. One can not deploy Albanians even if Kosovo is of big importance for serbian heritage. On the other hand one can not ask Serbs to live in a new country and to tear avay from their Serbian motherland. The independence of Kosovo was important to get a long term perspective for this region. The formal borders of Kosovo have no substanial importance, therefore it is appropriate to separate Kosovo and give the Serbs what they already owe.
Let us not forget, one should not interlink this matter with Albanians living in the Presevo valley, since Kosovo has been part conflict not any other part.
If partition brings a good end to the Kosovo matter (I'm not talking about Albanian-matter), then it should be considered.
The thinking is slowly evolving in Serbia. Now Tadic needs to push a step further and think radical. Only yesterday Ehud Olmert proposed a new drastic way of thinking to secure a lasting peace for Israel.
Old considerations have to be outweighed by the prospect of a better future, free of fear and animosity.
What Olmert said yesterday rings very true for Serbia too.
“A decision has to be made,” he said. “This decision is difficult, terrible, a decision that contradicts our natural instincts, our innermost desires, our collective memories, the prayers of the Jewish people for 2,000 years.”
The plan envisages a complete withdrawal from the Palestinian land captured by 1967 war, including east Jerusalem.
Puts a new spin on the phrase “Kosovo is our Jerusalem” altogether.
His telling us what every kosovar albanian knew for the last 10 yrs, Serbia has been aiming for this forever.
Does anyone really think that a wise move? Time for Kosovo to start playing Presevo/Bujanov/Medvege card, so serbia gets piece of north moitrovica and Albanians unite in one country...
Hey before anyone starts comming down on me just remember we never start trouble.. we finish it!
So if serbs are happy to unite with the serbs from north mitrovica we will unite with our people to our east.
Sounds like someone is getting tired from these diplomatic "victories".
From the latest meeting between president Sejdiu and president Bush, the story is quite different:
Bush: "I'm a strong supporter of Kosovo's independence," the president said. "I'm against any partition of Kosovo."
Rada Trajkovic yesterday declaring that she was against the partitioning of Kosova. The majority of Serbs live away from Mitrovica, so it would be very interesting to see how Mr Tadic's master plan is going to be played out. - This is super silly!
ZORAN wrote: "Kosovo is Serbian teritory, it's Serbia's perrogative to give away land, not for albanians to demand parts of Serbia. Serbia will be dictating terms."
You replied: "A little change of perspective, should show how foolish that argument is:
"Kosovo is European territory, it's Europe's prerogative to give away land, not for Serbians to demand parts of Europe. Europe will be dictating terms."
Jan, You are legally wrong about that. 'Europe' does not own any land, apart from maybe the EU owning the sites of their various buildings.
Countries own land (and please don't throw back moral arguments about people owning land - I am talking about reality and law, not populist theory). Legally Kosovo remains part of Serbia. The UN, EU, US and all other parties know that this is the case.
Why do you think that EULEX is not able to deploy? Because they are acting under the UN, and the UN fully recognises that Kosovo remains part of Serbia.
Would you be happy for a single ethnic group to cut off 15% of your territory wherever you live? Obviously so.
His telling us what every kosovar albanian knew for the last 10 yrs, Serbia has been aiming for this forever.
Does anyone really think that a wise move? Time for Kosovo to start playing Presevo/Bujanov/Medvege card, so serbia gets piece of north moitrovica and Albanians unite in one country...
Hey before anyone starts comming down on me just remember we never start trouble.. we finish it!
So if serbs are happy to unite with the serbs from north mitrovica we will unite with our people to our east.
What this is about in my opinion is seeking a just solution to the Kosovo problem, about being able to move forward.
If Serbs and Albanians decide some kind of division is the best solution then the internationals should back off and not impose their own solution.
By the way if Kosovo is eventually split a condition would be maintaining the highest degree of rights for minorities that remain outside their 'mother' country. Without guarantees of this kind no deal should be signed.
This isn't about selling out Serbs living south of the Ibar or Albanians north of it. Nor is it about nasty ethinc theories about how one ethnic group should live here and another there.
Its about normalising the situation in Kosovo and letting people living there have ordinary lives of the kind seen in the rest of Europe.
"Kosovo is European territory, it's Europe's prerogative to give away land, not for Serbians to demand parts of Europe. Europe will be dictating terms."
People like Danish Jan Andersen with their EU technocrat superstate thinking and mentality will become responsible for the complete downfall of Europe (in reality they have already started the process in 1991). Serbia is a sovereign country that is located in Europe and that is not a member of the EU or NATO. You or anybody else for that matter has to keep their nose out of our business. If you like it so much than please give away parts of your Danish kingdom to establish a new Muslim country or give away parts of your neighbors soil because Europe thinks that is a good idea (the Swedes and Germans will be quite upset). Or give away a part of Texas to the Hispanics, declare Basque region and Corsica independent, and so on. Stop being such an uneducated and ignorant person.
Maybe Mr Andersen is preoccupied with his drastic reduction in wealth due to the credit crunch to have noticed his child like errors.
"This "we-are-a-majority-that-live-somewhere-else-but-we-still-get-to-decide-over-other-peoples-lives" is plain silly" This argument is plain stupid to any objective observer. As Kosovo is an inalienable part of Serbia, it's plain to see that the Serbs form the vast majority of Serbia, so to try to claim that a minority is a majority in a province as justification for seperatism is idiotic - which 120+ countries seem to agree with.
There is NO country called Europe. Europe is a conglomeration of states, and each state is answerable to a higher body than the EU - the UN. All EU states must abide by UN law which takes precedence over state law and EU law.
Europe, morally or legally, has no jurisdiction over Kosovo. As recognised by the UN, Kosovo is a province of Serbia, pure and simple, hence i'll reiterate for the illiterate, it's Serbia perogative and no-one elses, to determine Kosovo's fate.
Besides, the EU and the US are in no fit state to dictate terms to anybody at the moment. Also, Denmarks attention will soon be shifting away from Kosovo, further north to the arctic as it watches Russia claim every square metre for itself.
So with all the rouble that the EU and US have to contend with at the moment, they'll gladly take any offers from Serbia to partition Kosovo and have one less problem to deal with.
Serbia will be the main power broker at the table dictating terms to the Kosovar Albanians, not the EU, US or Albanians. You'd be mindful to know your place, learn some humility and come to reality to see the situation for what it is.
The only way Serbs will accept partition is if Bosnia is also partitioned. Republika Srpska wants desperately to join Serbia, and if that is packaged together with the partitioning of Kosovo, it may be acceptable. Otherwise, forget it, no deal. This is what Tadic should be telling the so called 'civilized west', if he has any brains at all.
Bes - George Bush's promises are worthless. he's a lame duck.
Wth the US effectively bankrupt, it's influence on the world stage is greatly diminished as evidenced by the preliminary vote at the UN the other day.
Whether Tadic claims he was misquoted, etc, i think partition would be a good idea and draw and would draw a line under the whole affair.
question is, who would get what? And to pre-empt any answers, i don't think any swap for Bujanovac, presevo etc would be on the table as Kosovo is Serbian teritory, it's Serbia's perrogative to give away land, not for albanians to demand parts of Serbia. Serbia will be dictating terms.
I'm not a fan of partition for a number of reasons. The most obvious being a paritition would naturally be drawn at the Ibar where Serbia takes everything north, and abandons everything south. To me this is unacceptible because it effectively abandons all enclaves and sectors in the central and southern parts of Kosovo, will generate a major demographic shift all all remaining Serbs, and leaves the most important monasteries and cultural monuments at the mercy of Albanians and the goodwill of the international community.
Also, as much as I would like otherwise, I'm afraid "substantial autonomy" is no longer a viable issue. Unless something catastrophic happens, the US will not relent on its push to prop up Kosovo as a state.
The best case solution is still a dual-administrative system, something like Bosnia. Knowing the Serbs I know, they're happy with an RS status for Serb sectors of Kosovo: the north is theirs, the monasteries are theirs, and the smaller enclaves still have authority over their own affairs within the greater context of EU cooperation.
This may be Tadic's goal all along, but he can't actually say it yet. Let's see what transpires in the ICJ.
"(...) Kosovo is Serbian teritory, it's Serbia's perrogative to give away land, not for albanians to demand parts of Serbia. Serbia will be dictating terms."
A little change of perspective, should show how foolish that argument is:
Kosovo is European territory, it's Europe's prerogative to give away land, not for Serbians to demand parts of Europe. Europe will be dictating terms.
This "we-are-a-majority-that-live-somewhere-else-but-we-still-get-to-decide-over-other-peoples-lives" is plain silly. All you have to do is to change the focus, and you can make any minority a majority, and you can make any majority a minority.
there can be no partition, because that would mean treason.
and I think even Mr. Tadic knows what would happen to him, if he betrayed his own people.
and there is absolutely no reason to divide anything: UNSC 1244 is very clear on this.
Serbia has the moral right, the law and history on her side. so if Mr. Tadic is proposing something like that and given that he does it in a time when the main opponents of a peaceful and legitimate solution are suffering of serious economical problems, it indicates that he is not following serbian interests.
let´s hope the serbian people say a loud and clear NO to this irresponsible statement.
The population in Kosovo needs to be restored to represent the serbians that were ethnically cleansed by the albanian terrorists. Then it needs to be partitioned. After the partition an economic embargo needs to be placed on the albanian side of kosovo and let europe deal with the new welfare state it has created. Then Serbia needs to expel any illegal albanians in serbia proper. Serbia will be better off not having to deal with the Albanian question any longer.
Albanians have a long track record of having poor relations with their neighbors. Montengro, Macedonia, and Greece are next. Illiteracy, welfare, high crime rates, high birth rates, organized crime, religious and ethnic intolerance are all associated with these albanian statelets. And as far as the post about albanians not starting problems they just finish them. Pretty easy to act tough with NATO doing all of the hard work for you. Before NATO intervention all the world saw was the mighty KLA running, crying, and hiding. But once again thats the type of chest thumping we have come to expect from our albanian friends.
Either the whole of the former Yugoslavia gets partitioned by ethnic division prior to the conflict or nothing at all. Why would we now talk about partition after hundreds of thousands of Serbians have been ethnically cleansed from both Croatia and our Southern province?
Sorry, but Tadic has overstepped the line and is showing signs of weakness. There cannot be any division of our land to the detriment of Serbians only. We were fighting for the partition option back in the 90s but it wasn't acceptable back then so why should it be now?
The only option, both morally and legally, is for the Albanians to rule themselves within Serbia's borders (more than autonomy, less than independence), which is more than they have now or will ever get. Even this status-quo and defacto partition is better than what Tadic is proposing.
Tadic needs to step aside and to allow someone more capable to take his place.
bganon, what are you talking about? Are you Tadic's shadow or something? Because you seem to continually support his ideas blindly and have no problem appeasing the dictators. That is weak as far as I'm concerned and now is the time to stand firm because time is on our side.
Yes, I support the defacto partition, sure, where Serbians and Albanians rule their areas of influence but only within the borders of Serbia. Why are we talking about formal partition now after it has been denied to Serbians in both Croatia and BiH after so many years of conflict?
Either we talk about partitioning the whole former Yugoslavia based on ethnic divisions (the pre-war makeup) or we don't talk about it at all.
There is no other option but to stand firm and to demand our territorial integrity because the Serbians otherwise get the worst of both worlds (i.e. denied it where we had large minorities but allowed it for minorities living in Serbia).
Tadic is weak and needs to move aside before he does some severe damage to Serbia. He is obviously not up to the task.
Tadic by mentioning this has he accept the fact that Kosova is legaly independent.
he has at last said that what serbians intention was all the time: to get the northern part with Trepca mine which is very rich with minerals! It will never happen!Never Ever! remmember Kosova is not alone! How correct will sound if Tadic would be sugested to partion Serbia in to Sanjak (going to Bosnia, Northern Vojvodina to Hungary, Presheva region to Kosova, Vestern Macedonia to Kosova and Albania, Ulqin, Plava , Gucia and Tivar(Bar) to Albania, Chameria to Albania. This would mean Serbia would lose 50 prosent of its todays teritory.
Kosova is stronger now and has strong friends and relatives!
Sounds like someone is getting tired from these diplomatic "victories".
From the latest meeting between president Sejdiu and president Bush, the story is quite different:
Bush: "I'm a strong supporter of Kosovo's independence," the president said. "I'm against any partition of Kosovo."
Rada Trajkovic yesterday declaring that she was against the partitioning of Kosova. The majority of Serbs live away from Mitrovica, so it would be very interesting to see how Mr Tadic's master plan is going to be played out. - This is super silly!
Partition of Kosovo is opposed by both sides. Considering that, this statement effords much courage, so let's cool down and think about that.
Kosovo-matter can not be solved by insisting on formal or historical incidence. One can not deploy Albanians even if Kosovo is of big importance for serbian heritage. On the other hand one can not ask Serbs to live in a new country and to tear avay from their Serbian motherland. The independence of Kosovo was important to get a long term perspective for this region. The formal borders of Kosovo have no substanial importance, therefore it is appropriate to separate Kosovo and give the Serbs what they already owe.
Let us not forget, one should not interlink this matter with Albanians living in the Presevo valley, since Kosovo has been part conflict not any other part.
If partition brings a good end to the Kosovo matter (I'm not talking about Albanian-matter), then it should be considered.
Don't do it Mr. Tadic!! Serbs weren't "allowed" independence in Krajna and aren't "allowed" independence in Bosna. The Albanians in Kosovo had all that they wanted and it's kind of funny because there doesn't exist the need to create a new country for them. This country already exists and it's called Albania. This truly has become a farce because I can't think of any ethnic group in this World that can claim two nations of their own...smarten up Tadic and don't give up.
ZK UK: I agree with you on many things but I have to say that bganon makes some sense when s/he says:
"If Serbs and Albanians decide some kind of division is the best solution then the internationals should back off and not impose their own solution.
"By the way if Kosovo is eventually split a condition would be maintaining the highest degree of rights for minorities that remain outside their 'mother' country. Without guarantees of this kind no deal should be signed."
It's not my country, and therefore my point of view is not necessarily the same as if I were Serbian. But with the ICJ ruling coming up I think that it's exactly the right time for Tadic to show willing.
Mentioning partition as an option is a gesture of being open to new realistic discussions and if it were to happen there would need to be many conditions attached.
That most certainly would not include any deal on Presevo or other areas that are part of Serbia.
Morally all of Kosovo should remain part of Serbia, but I think that realistically a partition may be the only option. I hope that I'm wrong, but better to have a deal that gives Serbia the upper hand in negotiations.
The other thing which I know that you'll strongly disagree with, is that I think Tadic and Jeremic are doing a pretty good job in a very difficult situation.
This not a surprise, why do you think the Kosovars put the map of 100% Kosova in the flag...
I thought that Milosovic destroyed Serbia and Yugoslavia and as leader he was mad, with Tadic as an Albanian i actually respected his determination "not his ideas" but now this is absolutely the worst statement coming from a President that is going to the ICJ in two weeks time. He has just single handed brought the hole process of the so called diplomatic Serbian process on its knees.
If the Legendary President Ibrahim Rugova was alive he would probably think "they only ever wanted the gold,zinc, copper in the north part of Mitrovica" estimated at around £100billion value, we will never give up Mitrovica, there are still 100 thousand Kosovar Albanians still living in n.Mitrovica they are not going anywhere, otherwise as you know the Albanians will start on the serbs in the rest of the enclaves in the Republic of Kosovo...
"Maybe Mr Andersen is preoccupied with his drastic reduction in wealth due to the credit crunch to have noticed his child like errors."
Thank you for your concern mr ZORAN, but my wealth is going nowhere. I took the precation 3 years ago to secure my home with a loan that runs for 30 years at a fixed interest rate. I supposed I could have achived an initially interest rate if I had chosen a short amortization period, but I opted for a slightly higher interest rate in return for fixed rate. And while the paper-money of my stock options might be tanking at the moment, I am not actually loosing anything since I have no plans for selling those next the next 20 years.
ZORAN: "As Kosovo is an inalienable part of Serbia, it's plain to see that the Serbs form the vast majority of Serbia, so to try to claim that a minority is a majority in a province as justification for seperatism is idiotic - which 120+ countries seem to agree with."
So this is true as well:
As Chrimea is an inalienable part of Ukraine, it's plain to see that the Ukrainians form the vast majority of Ukrania, so to try to claim that a minority (Russians) is a majority in a province (Chrimea) as justification for seperatism is idiotic - which 120+ countries (except Russia) seem to agree with.
It is good to know that ZORAN will vehemently oppose any attempt from Russia to include Chrimea into the Russian Republic.
Let's try that logic somewhere else:
As Catalonia is an inalienable part of Spain, it's plain to see that the Spaniards form the vast majority of Spain, so to try to claim that a minority (Catalonians) is a majority in a province (Catalonia) as justification for seperatism is idiotic - except for the fact that Catalonia is enjoying increasing self-determination from Spain exactly because they are an majority in their region.
ZORAN: "There is NO country called Europe. Europe is a conglomeration of states, and each state is answerable to a higher body than the EU - the UN. All EU states must abide by UN law which takes precedence over state law and EU law."
Actually.... Europe is a not a conglemerate of states, if anything, it is a loosely defined geographic area. If Serbia wants to be considered part of Europe, it is YOUR logic that dictates that the majority of the people in those European countries should have the final say in what Serbia can and should do. Your logic, not mine. I will always maintain that it is the people that lives in the affected areas that have the final say. Russians on the Chrimia peninsula, South-Ossetians(?) in South-Ossetia Catalonians in Catalonia, Inuits in Greenland, Kosovo-Albanians in Kosova, and SERBS in MITROVICA. Very simple really.
ZORAN: "Europe, morally or legally, has no jurisdiction over Kosovo."
100% correct. Only the people living in Kosovo has jurisdiction over Kosovo. And only the Serbs living in Mitrovica has jurisdiction over Mitrovica.
ZORAN: "(...) hence i'll reiterate for the illiterate, it's Serbia perogative and no-one elses, to determine Kosovo's fate."
Repeating the same nonsense 1000 times does not make it any less nonsense.
ZORAN: "Besides, the EU and the US are in no fit state to dictate terms to anybody at the moment. Also, Denmarks attention will soon be shifting away from Kosovo, further north to the arctic as it watches Russia claim every square metre for itself."
That might well happend. Seems like the typical behaviour from any big state, or conglomeration of states. My hope is that they will have the decency to ask the Inuits in Canada and Greenland what they think of their intentions.
ZORAN: "So with all the rouble that the EU and US have to contend with at the moment, they'll gladly take any offers from Serbia to partition Kosovo and have one less problem to deal with."
Actually, it is not that big a problem. That big bailout-plan that failed to get approved by the US congress, the 700 billion USD plan, is approximately 3.5 times the annual GDP of Denmark. And we are a small nation of just 5.5 million people. So in reallity, this "big" bailout is equal to having the US-of-A completely support our little country for 3.5 years. Do you really think that effort would break the US economy?
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This is the last card in the hands of Serbian policy. And this will have dramatic implications in the region. I am sure Tadic is very well advised to use this card. And I am sure this is a typical Russian diplomacy. For any patriot in Serbia Kosovo can not be devided. And this is not because of loosing some other areas (Presheva and Bujanovc), which are such important, but because of a 1000 year history, which according to every history book in Serbia,(Kosovo) is the heart of Serbia. This option announced by an official is a pure provocation especially toward the Albanians in Kosovo, who according to the Serbian history, are very passionate and can create incidents. That´s the best could happen for Serbia especially in the phase of decisions in New York. This provocation will be extended with the next declaration. Annexation of Republika Srpska. Welcome to the next Balkan war started again from Serbs. This is the end of Tadic era.
Partition is not an option, this confirms that serbs have come to their last option, which i am sure it will fail. Kosova was and is albanian and never was serbian and we will never ever give up Kosova.
>> The Serbs will not settle for less than 25% of the Kosovo land mass.
You are not even a Serb, but if it's divided they should to before N Mitrovica was excanged for Pesevo by Tito. Natural (i.e. above the river) and set (i.e. pre WWII) borders or nothing. No one will get a pencil and start haggling over land.
Kate, even honest Serb historians amit that the Alanians have lived there log before Serbs came in th eBalkans. It isn't an 'ethnic group stealing land,' it's an abused ethnic group becoming independent so they live in peace. No one can own land, it belongs either to the autochtones or to the people that live in it. Land changes legal ownership all the time (Kosova was Bulgarian, Byzatine, Serb, Turkish, Serb and soon Albanian)
This can work if Presevo is included, otherwise the Albanians will not agree and the time to negotiate is all but over. If Servs and Albanians agree, they can convince EU who hates 100% ethnic separation. Have Tadic offer this and Serbs solve their Albanian problem and Albanians have their country back.
We knew they cared about land by the way. All the partitions proposed by Serbs had th richest lands, not really the monasteries.
You seem to have no problem with a minority within the minority to be given these guarantees, but you object to the minority as a whole having these guarantees in the first place.
Village bey, Far from it Serbs inside Kosovo should have the same rights as Albanians outside. It works every which way for me - whatever solution we end up with. What I want to guard against is second / third class status for say Albanians in N Mitrovica and Serbs in S Mitrovica - if there is some kind of division or not.
No pride isn't my specialty, as you should know by now. I settle for jobs, prosperity and peace. I leave the overblown sense of pride to the misguided.
But hey we could easily turn this argument round and I could insist that Kosovo should remain in Serbia and Albanians be treated with full rights - and that would be genuine. However, the fact is that Albanians don't want to remain in Serbia and the fact is that neither do Kosovo Serbs (or Belgrade) want to live in a new state called Kosova. So lets compromise.... There are not a whole lot of options.
I don't have pre-conceptions of Albanians. I have Albanian friends and am not interested in those false differences. I also think that Albanians perception of Serbs will change over time, but for many Albanians, I hope you will agree, the clock stopped in 98/99. That is useful in terms of not having to look at ones own behaviour, by the constant portrayal of a people as victim. A people with a real or imagined grievience, as you know, are not exactly easy to live with.
ZK Come on don't be funny, you know very well (as do most people here, even if they don't agree) that my position on Kosovo pre-dates Tadic's statement.
I'll admit a few times something I have said Tadic has come out with some days later, but with respect, that hardly makes me his follower. It does mean he is getting something right though!
He's hardly likely to stand down just after being elected is he? I mean you called for his head practically moments after he was elected, just as you called for this government to fall within seconds of its election. Calm down and give the man a chance.
And your language 'now is time to stand firm'... Come on. Thats what we heard in the 90's and look where that got us? Does it look like we stood firm? Does it look like the anti-negotiation attitude worked for us? Quite the opposite, in the 90's we didn't need to stand firm, we needed to negotiate and the same applies today. How many thousands of lives could have been saved if we had focused on negotiations, not patting ourselves on the back for having one of the largest armies in Europe? How many Serbs and other nationalities could still be living in their homes over the former Yugoslavia?
But I really don't have the slightest clue on your statement that Serbia was looking to partition Kosovo or Yugoslavia in the 90's. Who told you that?
It was the Serbs who lost most by the collapse of Yugoslavia? Only a turkey votes for Christmas.
Have Malësia, Ulqin (Ulcinj), and other Albanian inhabited areas of Montenegro, along with Preshevë valley, Medvegjë and Bujanoc, and the big chunk of Macedonia go to Kosova/o. Give Serbia the northern part (though I am not sure about Pejë and Deçan - most of the people living in both places are predominantly Albanian ... not sure how that would work out …), RS, and if possible, Krajina. Yank part of Vojvodina and give it to the Magyars and voila ... we can finally leave this territory non-sense behind and stop being the laughing stock of Europe.
‘By the way if Kosovo is eventually split a condition would be maintaining the highest degree of rights for minorities that remain outside their 'mother' country. Without guarantees of this kind no deal should be signed’.
Bgangon, You seem to have no problem with a minority within the minority to be given these guarantees, but you object to the minority as a whole having these guarantees in the first place.
Hmm, maybe this has something to do with your perceived sense of loss. Anything I can get would ease the pain and my wounded pride.
You rightly point out to the impracticality of having ethnically pure territories but then you go on wishing a little of this division anyway.
If I understood you right, this is nothing to do with ideology but only serves the greater good of normalizing situation in Kosova. Well I can sympathise with that plight. Northern tip of Kosova belongs to people who live there, but that doesn’t exclusively implies partition. The argument of destabilisation was used greatly before independence’s declaration, but failed to materialise. The place is relatively quiet and is getting better with time. The insistence on partition has in my opinion something to do with your perceptions of Albanians. But perceptions are not set in stone and change over time.
Your present government has gradually and successfully shifted the debate from your “Kosovo ideology and myth” into a debate over legality. If people are moving away from that ideology, that’s always progress in my eyes.
Mr Andersen nothing you have said has countered any of my arguments. The issue is very straightforward. Due to Albanian nationalism, Albanians want to creat a Greater Albania by illegally annexing Kosovo, hoping to gain legitimacy and ultimately to join Albania.
Following YOUR line of logic, if this is acceptable then you should be blocking Croatia's accession to the EU, granting the creation of the state of Krajina and the partition of Bosnia.
Yes, Serbia does want to join the EU and the EU should rightfully have a say in the Balkans but should not break international law in the process.
As for Europe, make your mind up. Either it is a "club" in which case you state it should have a say in Serbia's internal affairs, or it's a loose Geographical area, in which case it shoudln't , similar to the US having no say in Canada even though they are part of North America.
Ukraine - when did i suggest the partition of it along ethnic lines? Never. i don't support Russia on this issue, or in relation to SO and Abkhazia.
Catalonia - increasing self determination but they are DENIED independence.
So, like I keep repeating, Kosovo is a legal part of Serbia as recognised by the highest laws on this planet and as such only Serbia can determine Kosovo's future, not the US< EU or anyone else.
As an aside here are a couple more facts. 1) Stock options don't last for 20 years.
2) $700 Billion is the headline figure, the estimated total cost to the US will be nearer $4 TRILLION and as total US debt is roughly $10.5 Trillion, that is an enormous increase even for the US and will create a lot more trouble than you seem to understand.
That economic lesson/discussion you'll have to find elsewhere. it'll take ages to describe the possible full effects to you.
"However, Kosovo leaders have dismissed Tadić’s remarks concerning a partition, labeling them “unacceptable“. "
With Rugova passed away, there aren't many leaders in Kosovo whom I can call "leader". They are mostly gangsters. Serbian government should discuss the matter with legit government of Albania, not with gangsters. Their place is in Serbian or Albanian prison.
That discussion did not happen yet. Other forces including all Camp Bondseel have to go home. At their current state, both Serbia and Albania can discuss what to do without the danger, things go upside down in Kosovo.
Ultimately, the solution between Albania and Serbia (and Montenegro and Macedonia and BiH) is a single borderless entity, consisting of several self-governing entities with division on ethnic/whatever-to-be-decided administrative lines. Camp Bondseel does not have a place there - even if some K-Albanians feel, it adds to their security. It actually does not, but it takes time to discover it.
Actually partition would be a reduced Serbia as stands. There is no way that Serbia should have to give up any of her land at all - I just can't see an option other than partition and special status for the enclaves.
But diplomacy so far has been very smart - I would like to know what Vuk Jeremic has in mind.
Mike - I agree that there may be some sort of other solution, perhaps even already on the cards. But Bosnia appears to be in chaos and mess - not a good precedent.
serbia don't want kosovO,how serbia can want something what's already serbian property?,it is a serbian province only occupied at this moment.
others have done it in history and now is USA doing it.
history will repeat, kosovo is serbian!
Partition of the Balkans along ethnic lines benefits both the Serbs and the Albanians. Let us together set a peaceful precedent on how the future of the Balkans in Europe will look.
Give the Albanians Presevo and half of Macedonia, and we’ll take the North, Pec, Decani and RS.
Tadic has very good timing on his proposal, and I think it will give strength to our arguments at the ICJ.
OR…
Bring the entire Balkans into the EU in one shot, and change the voting districts every 10 years based on Ethnicity, that really is the most sensible stable solution. A sort of Super Yugo and at the same time a mini EU…
First wanting All kosova, then agreeing to partition and get at least some of Kosova. The next and final step is agreeing to give up all Kosova.
Kosova is an independent country and there is no need for the serb government to waste time, efforts and money to try to get back Kosova because it will not happen.
"Jan, You are legally wrong about that. 'Europe' does not own any land, apart from maybe the EU owning the sites of their various buildings."
Geographic areas do not own land.
kate: "Countries own land (and please don't throw back moral arguments about people owning land - I am talking about reality and law, not populist theory)."
But I will throw that back at you! I have an owners deed on my property, legally signed and sealed by the Notarius Publicus. And only in exceptional cases can the Danish state force me to sign over my property and in that case they will have to compensate me financially or otherwise.
People own property. PERIOD.
kate: "Legally Kosovo remains part of Serbia. The UN, EU, US and all other parties know that this is the case."
And Greenland legally belongs to Denmark? And therefore Denmark, and only Denmark, should decide if the Inuits can have independence? How about the Faroe Islands in the North Atlantic? The inhabitants there have no right to decide for themselves if they want independence or not? Allow me to repeat what I said earlier to ZORAN:
I will always maintain that it is the people that lives in the affected areas that have the final say. Russians on the Chrimia peninsula, South-Ossetians(?) in South-Ossetia Catalonians in Catalonia, Inuits in Greenland, Kosovo-Albanians in Kosova, and SERBS in MITROVICA. Very simple really.
kate: "Why do you think that EULEX is not able to deploy? Because they are acting under the UN, and the UN fully recognises that Kosovo remains part of Serbia."
Ohhh - they are able to deploy, they are just playing nice for the time being trying to work out some kind of agreement. If and when the decission is made that enough is enough, they will be all over Kosovo. It is not something I hope for though. I prefer a mutual and peaceful agreement.
kate: "Would you be happy for a single ethnic group to cut off 15% of your territory wherever you live? Obviously so."
Obviously I would. If some ethnic group decided to buy up 60-70% of one of the larger Danish islands and settled there as the local majority, I would be the first the congratulate them. I assume you already know my motto: "Independence for everyone, twice on Sundays".
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The thinking is slowly evolving in Serbia. Now Tadic needs to push a step further and think radical. Only yesterday Ehud Olmert proposed a new drastic way of thinking to secure a lasting peace for Israel.
Old considerations have to be outweighed by the prospect of a better future, free of fear and animosity.
What Olmert said yesterday rings very true for Serbia too.
“A decision has to be made,” he said. “This decision is difficult, terrible, a decision that contradicts our natural instincts, our innermost desires, our collective memories, the prayers of the Jewish people for 2,000 years.”
The plan envisages a complete withdrawal from the Palestinian land captured by 1967 war, including east Jerusalem.
Puts a new spin on the phrase “Kosovo is our Jerusalem” altogether.
I think during Mr Tadic's visit to New York, he got told partition or nothing by the loyal friend Russia.If this statement is true and he was not miss quoted than it makes a mockery of the ICJ initiative.As a Kosovar-Albanian i say thanks but no thanks Mr Tadic,Kosova has got no territorial intention towards Serbia and so should you towards any neighbouring country.One good thing that came out of this statement is that at last Serbia is excepting reality that Kosova is gone.
(miki,
The Serbs will not settle for less than 25% of the Kosovo land mass.
My dear Miki Serbia does not dictate the terms here,the world actually has to care of what the K-Albanians will settle for,remember Serbia does not decide for K-Albanians we got our President,and our own representatives that will represent the newest nation.
Hey Danish man (are you really Danish, incidentally ?) -judging by the way things go in Europe, soon you will see Muslims becoming majority in your home country of Denmark...and then, they might start carving their own piece of land, merely because they have become a majority :-) So you will have a perfect chance to prove your words by helping to split beatiful Denmark into pieces to accomodate Muslim demands..."legitimate grievances of opressed minrities", on the Euro-speak. So, do you think many of Danish will happily give their land away, as you suggest Serbs should ?
Partition OK, but a reciprosity partiton for all the region:south Serbia,Macedonia,MonteNegro,Bosnia&Herzegovina,Kosova and Croatia.
But what does it mean mr. Tadic "Only War".
I think that we should use minority grups as a conetction line between our nations and not for a territorial partition.
Thank you!!!
"So you will have a perfect chance to prove your words by helping to split beatiful Denmark into pieces to accomodate Muslim demands"
1. Albanians aren't 'Muslims,' they are Albanians
2. Serbs fought Croatia and Slovenia (both Catholic) over land
3. Albanians are AUTOCHTONES in Kosovo, so if you bring up history go a bit further back.
4. Serbs almost went to war with Montengro, 100% brothers, and the Churches are still bickering.
5. There is no such thing as "Serbian land" or "Bulgarian land" for that matter. No one ones it for ever, people who live there do. You can look at how many rulers and nations have 'owned' Kosova over the centuries.
I think Serbia will take most of the northern and western parts of Kosovo, while the eastern and southern parts will go to the Kosovo Albanians. The Serbs will not settle for less than 25% of the Kosovo land mass.
If I recall, it was russian FM Lavrov who suggested this move first. No sense in attacking Tadic for someone else's idea. Secondly, this statement may have simply been political posturing to give the RS political fuel to seperate from BIH. As I understand it, most of the inhabitants for RS want out anyways. Dodik has been pretty quiet about a referendum or seperation in the last few months, they may be planning something after the October elections especially in light of the "bosniak" president statements at the UN GA last week. Once the UN/EU money pool dries up...we'll see what happens in RS.
Jan from Denmark. It's funny how you avoided answering that particular question.
Will you stand firm behind Muslims taking a piece of Denmark and making it their own country when they become a majority there?
According to your moral code you should be very vocal in approving this. Please do answer that question.
"Hey Danish man (are you really Danish, incidentally ?)"
Sure is. I can trace my ancestors back some 400 years here.
Boriska: "(...) they might start carving their own piece of land, merely because they have become a majority :-)"
Yep, that is the beauty of democracy. Just as the Israeli Jews are about to realize, that soon the Palestinians living in Israel will suddenly be in majority and can implement their wishes through a democratic process.
Boriska: "So, do you think many of Danish will happily give their land away, as you suggest Serbs should ?"
I don't speak for anyone but myself, but it really doesn't matter if people are happy about it or not. If the majority decides that this is how it is supposed to be, then there is not much anyone can do. Besides, it is not a question of "giving" anything away. If a minority in Denmark becomes large enough to aspire to some kind of division of Denmark they will most like own substantial land areas in/around the area where they plan on creating their own little country.
--
Got to laugh at these Albanians and Krasniqi in particular - you guys having the cheek to talk about borders when your so called state lies within the territory of another country (SERBIA) a UN member.
It's like they believe they can say black is white.
WAKE UP!
Stay in prison and believe the hype that leads down a dead end street!
Hi Matthew,long time no see!
It is nice to have you back.
I like your idea,but when it comes to Pec/Peja and Decani it will be difficult!
Thanks to Mr.Haradinaj there is hardly a Serb soul left in that area!He is our hero if you know what I mean!
Kosovo is the newest country in the World and is place for everyone who lives there!
The biggest task is how to integrate Serbs in Kosovan Institutions and once that is done,we will be just fine!
By the way I am very impressed with the comments of bganon,he is the new Mike and Matthew I liked!
Cheerio from London!
What you and your friends in Serbia will do with 15% of the population in order to protect 15% of the territory. App. 14% are Albanians which do not want to be ruled anymore from the rest of 86%. Albanians part of this territory or as it was considered always by Serbs, second hand citizens. Hier is the big challenge for any democratic country where Serbia pretend to be. I`v never heard any declaration from any Serbian saying that we want Kosovo back together with Albanians.
Would the Serbian commentators on this side favor a partition of Presevo valley in exchange for Leposavic or a partition of Sanxhak(Novi Pazar)in exchange for RS(Banja Luka), or do the Serbs wish the Magyars in Vojvodina to form their own country also. If the answer is YES, well don't blame the Albanians about the word PRECEDENT, that has been used so often. If the answer is NO then there is no problem unless you can not live without a problem.
"The best case solution is still a dual-administrative system, something like Bosnia. Knowing the Serbs I know, they're happy with an RS status for Serb sectors of Kosovo"
Mike,that is not doable for one reason: geography. RS is in one area. You cannot have 25 RS's in a small country like Kosova. You are right about independence, US (UK, Germany, France, Turkey, Japan, Canada, Sweden etc etc) will not change it's mind, and even then ultimately Albanians will say no even if US changes it's mind. Wars are over for the Balkans as long as NATO /EU are intact. They only way is to have EU monitor human rights OR work out an exchange with the Albanians: Presevo for N Mitrovica and maybe a strip to Decani for Montenegro. EU hates this because Hungarians might want to join Hungary, Albanians in Montenegro Albania etc.
>>> Albanians have a long track record of having poor relations with their neighbors
Serbia is the only one to have declared to ALL it's neighbors, and sent tanks there. If people hate us because we don't expect second class citizenship, that's actually a compliment.
If only I had more time to post and to email folks. It is good however, to hear moderate Albanian voices here. Bganon also has my deep respect, although we differ on many economic issues, our views towards society are very similar.
Actually, my perspective on the issue is probably most like Jan’s here, and I have to admit, at least his view is consistent in its application. I do think he’d find a more receptive audience here if he mentioned independence for RS as often as he mentions Kosovo.
You see Jan, we Serbs are a little sensitive about such issues, we feel that its “Independence for Everyone” BUT Serbs.
It does seem to me that partition is the most logical course of action, and I’m glad Tadic finally let it out of the bag. It of course makes it more likely Serbia will get a favorable solution in the ICJ. It does seem to be a solution that everyone can *live* with, but no one will love it. It also leaves plenty of opportunity for negotiation on what form that partition will take.
In most cases I agree with Jan, however, I do feel that areas of significant cultural identity deserve to take other factors besides merely ethnicity in its determining a final status.
Keep in mind genocide includes cultural destruction, so clearly an ethnicity’s identity is important and must be considered.
That’s why I support the establishment of Israel as a State even though traditionally Jews were not a majority, and wouldn’t be if all the ethnically cleansed Palestinians and their descendents were allowed back into Israel. That is also why I find the issue of East Jerusalem so vexing, its inhabited by Palestinians, but important culturally to the Jews, and the Muslims and the Christians. What to do? I like to see it as the Capital of the UN and an independent State in itself. Its sacred to the majority of the world and should belong to all of us.
That’s also why the issue of Pec and Decani are going to require some creative thinking.
Serbs are going to need some way of feeling that our important Churches there are truly free and independent.
Vatican status perhaps? That might put the general Serb population at ease with the situation.
Trade for something super important? Nis? Lot’s of farmland? Enough cash for the people of Pec and Decani to buy Castles on the Coast and live good forever?
I’d be very interested in hearing some creative ideas from the Albanian side on how to deal with those regions. Of course, rights for minorities and freedom of religion are absolute givens already in any resulting situation.
I personally like the idea of giving Pec and Decani to my homeland, Montenegro in exchange for Bar to the Albanians and parts of the north to the Serbians.
Montenegrins and Albanians aren’t really so different, and we share clans for Christ’s sake. We, more than anyone else helped shape and form the so called “Kosovo Myth”, why not be their guardian? We’re a tourist based economy and already have Ostrog, why not add two very important cultural sites? We have a very bright future, I think we’re next after Croatia in getting into the EU. Most certainly the standard of living would be best for those people under Montenegro than anyone else.
---"I personally like the idea of giving Pec and Decani to my homeland, Montenegro in exchange for Bar to the Albanians and parts of the north to the Serbians."
It will never happen: one, this is much worst from a precedent perspective, it involves REALLY changing the borders and EU hates that idea. Overall, Albanians don't care about empty land provided the people are inside the right state and land is made up somewhere else, but EU has settled this: Independence for Kosova, fast EU and billions in investments for Serbia and hope that people get along once they are rich.
Even if it was allowed, all sides would be haggling over every single house and break off the agreement. Wasn't Bar known as Tivar? Many Albanians died defending Plava, Ulqin, Gucia, Podgorica and half of Malesia. Oh well.
You share more than just the clan system, vendeta and besa with the Albanians (and especially Malesori and Kosovars)
Jovan;.......................Historical facts,our language, our name (ALBANI were one of many ILLYRIAN tribes) suggest that we are indead the true heirs to this lands. DARDANI the ILLYRIAN tribe that always lived in Kosovo take their name from the pear orchards.It was once a Majestic land streaching as far north as the Danube.You will find historical facts very healthy if you researched Latin or ancient Greek texts.
"Albanians seem to see it the same way, since they constantly stay calm when I confront them with the fact"
Jovan, I guess you must be kinda moderator...I get censured when I address you...let's this time.
- I stay calm while responding you on that: Kanun is more about the Albanian's (trade-mark) BESA: we never deny our word.
It does happen also that we are in vendetta situation. In this case our house becomes our castle. But this habit is in disuse now. It cannot be used against us...unless an intrigue is involved.
"...let´s stick to the facts, my friends, and that is no question about being "moderate" or not..., Kosovo is Serbia, all of it. and that is not only a historical fact, it is also a legal fact..."
I asked you several times (some of them censured) to show facts about this pretension of yours: No official Serbian State Map (exclude flashlight invasions) have been shown us in this blog which include Kosovo/a before 1912. Until this date Serbia had a General Consulate in Pristina.
"so, it is only a question of time, until the US as the main force behind this socalled "independence" have to accept the inevitable - they will sooner or later have to change their policies".
The Anglo-Saxon nations have won all the wars the last 250 years. You're right to hope USA will change mind about Kosovo/a. If they do, it'll be fine, Kosova will change hands again. It was not Serbian or Albanians in Kosova, it was Russia or the West. The West prevailed this time.
"...the Balkans, and especially Serbia will be a wealthy and prosperous region, once the Albanians let go their illusion of being the Illyrians´s sons and finally realize that it is Serbia they are living in."
Unless you show where we Albanians come from (so we can go there and build our vacations house or claim our cradle- as you are doing in Kosova) we'll remain Illyrians's sons and very comfortably so.
Well I'd like to thank participants for a quite frank discussion of characteristics of the people who live in our part of the world.
But I would ask again, if we can drop the retoric when we choose, could we not honestly and openly discuss what should be the future of Kosovo in the same way some of us are doing here?
Why can we not negotiate and see if we can come to agreement? If we fail, then at least we made the attempt but I say again we have not had real, genuine negotiations, just as we have had few frank discussions on this topic.
A real solution is possible and we have to believe that, or things will never change.
On 30 September 2008 16:58, Dino Hamilton, Canada wrote:
"(..) I can't think of any ethnic group in this World that can claim two nations of their own."
I can, I can even think of 3: Denmark, Norway and Sweden. We have been at war with each other for hundreds of years, we have swapped land areas countless of times, yet we speak almost the same language, eat almost the same kind of food and drink the same kind of beer, and since 1958 we have had free travel without the need of passports (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union).
PS: Icelanders belong to the same ethnic group, but they have a somewhat different language. So that makes it 4 countries.
--
the only reason Mr Tadic asked for partition is to scare Macedonia and Montenegro that they might end up been seperated on ethnic groups. A smart person and a good politican can see that.
"Will you stand firm behind Muslims taking a piece of Denmark and making it their own country when they become a majority there?"
I will not stand behind anyone TAKING anything.
I will stand behind anyone that uses their democratic right, their right vote, and whatever other political influence they can muster, to implement whatever changes they deem necessary. That includes changing the Danish constitution, renaming it to Muslimland, or paint it in green and yellow.
The only point of contention would be if they wanted to change the constitution and remove universal humans rights such as my control of my own body, my freedom of speech, my right to own property, my right to behave as I wish inside my own 4 walls, etc, etc.
Dashnori, you write "Mike,that is not doable for one reason: geography. RS is in one area. You cannot have 25 RS's in a small country like Kosova."
I agree it does present a problem. Were all Serbs and cultural landmarks on one area contiguous to Serbia, I'd say cut the line right there and recognize the rest right away. Case closed.
Maybe Matthew's option isn't so bad after all - redrawing boundaries along ethnic lines, but while I completely agree with his proposal of including Pec and Decani in either Serbia or Montenegro, Louie raises the equally valid point of there being 99% Albanians there! Kind of hard to uproot unless some adequate compensation is made - Presevo maybe? Either that or just take the sliver where the monasteries are or something.
Then there's always Gracanica, which is inconveniently in the middle of everything. Suddenly it just get all the more messy.
Rather than the "dozens of RS" models as Dashnori infers, I'd prefer one Serbian government that speaks on behalf of all provinces and enclaves, most likely based in Mitrovica. Let's be honest, all enclaves in central and southern Kosovo MUST cooperate with the EU to some degree. The only other option is for all the Serb families to pack up and leave, and let me tell you that BG doesn't want them.
Therefore: one Kosovo, two seats of power (Pristina, Mitrovica). The EU High Commissioner has executive authority, while Thaci and Ivanovic have authority in their own jurisdiction.
Right now, it's as plain as day the two sides will NOT cooperate. Even with the most moderate Serb and Albanian leaders in power, the current differences are insurmountable. I'm calling for each side to manage their own affairs for the time being and think of possible reintegration in a generation or two.
The only other doable option is Matthew's suggestion.
Partition of Kosova open even more the pandora box. Serbs with Serbs, Croats with Croats , Macedonia just a small little nation with a new name... montenegro a small little nation like luxemburg,,, i mean really where we are going with partition? Albania and Serbia will benefit of it so will Croatia,, but Macedonia, Montenegro and Bosnia will be the big losers.. I dont think partition it will happen based on this.. If it does all balkan map will be redrawen.
It will never happen: one, this is much worst from a precedent perspective, it involves REALLY changing the borders and EU hates that idea.
(Dashnori i Ceces, 1 October 2008 12:57)
international borders can be changed if there is mutual consent of all parties involved. that wouldn't be a precedent for anything from the legal point of view. and the eu doesn't mind changing the borders or no eu state would recognise kosovo, which is a precedent no matter what everyone says precisely because there is no consent of all concerned parties.
i understand albanians want independence, but that's not a reason to be out of touch with reality.
"Jovan;...….. Historical facts,our language, our name (ALBANI were one of many ILLYRIAN tribes) suggest that we are indead the true heirs to this lands. DARDANI the ILLYRIAN tribe that always lived in Kosovo take their name from the pear orchards.It was once a Majestic land streaching as far north as the Danube.You will find historical facts very healthy if you researched Latin or ancient Greek texts.
(pleurat, 1 October 2008 16:36) "
Sounds like a fairy tale to me. Thats why every building, historical structure and monument of significance was built by Serbs eh? the albanian historical footprint in kosovo is virtually nill.
bganon, all I can say is that you were obviously sleeping (or still very young) throughout the 90s and missed the point that negotiations do not really work with the Western dictators. They prefer to do what they want and negotiations are not an option.
Nothing has really changed so the choice is to be subservient and you'll have a job or to resist and defend your freedom. Sure, resisting was more difficult in the 90s but now with the dictatorship crumbling we simply need to stand firm as time is on our side.
I can only speak for myself, but I'm not really into slavery.
there is no state "kosova", it´s an occupied part of the state of Serbia.
next: you don´t have to go back further in history, since the K-albanians, or to be more precise, all Albanians lack to be the descendants of the Illyrians. that´s wishful thinking.
the Illyrians were assimilated by all the nations that arrive d in the balkans.
it´s the same with todays Albanians, the only reason why some part of their language has similarities with illyrian languages is, that the Albanians had no consolidated community or put another way: they were a loose tribe without any national identity.
that´s why they took over illyrian words, while all others nations have their own.
but trying to sell this legend of "honest serbian historians who "amit" ( check your spelling my friend ) that the Albanians were there before - is simple nonsense.
in the late 80ies, US-american historians and archeologists were researching in southern Serbia, and they found nothing whatsoever... nothing that indicates towards anything our dear albanian friends here believe to be.
the illyrian myth is outdated, my dear albanian friends. you should learn the truth about your ancestry, and not believe in nonsense...
come on, kids... that´s something you should really forget about. as this new guy, Tesla, wrote it. "no partition, end of story".
as far as I am concerned, ...now you are suddenly finding out what you have in common? how funny is that!
of course we all have some ( rather negative ) things we share, and as a civilized and progressive european, I am certainly not proud of that.
interestingly, many Albanians seem to see it the same way, since they constantly stay calm when I confront them with the fact, that a great number of male Albanians cannot leave home, because of the kanun-tradition, since they are only safe at home.
let´s stick to the facts, my friends, and that is no question about being "moderate" or not..., Kosovo is Serbia, all of it. and that is not only a historical fact, it is also a legal fact, UNSC 1244 CONFIRMS it.
so, it is only a question of time, until the US as the main force behind this socalled "independence" have to accept the inevitable - they will sooner or later have to change their policies.
and the Balkans, and especially Serbia will be a wealthy and prosperous region, once the Albanians let go their illusion of being the Illyrians´s sons and finally realize that it is Serbia they are living in.
only then, there will be peace and stability in the region.
It only takes a few minutes to look up those regions and familiarize yourself with them. Pec and Decani (as you seem to know since you call them by their Albanian names) are in Kosovo, they border with Serbia and Montenegro. I seem to recall that Bar was called Anti-Vari in the old days, although I could be wrong on that.
As far as RS and Krajina goes, look up Ustashe and WWII and you’ll see why Serbs there fought so incredibly hard not to suffer Genocide again. It was a 1000% worse than anything that happened in the 90’s. My wife’s family is from that region, and I can tell you her grandfather and his generation suffered incredibly and vowed “never again”.
You should have at least a basic understanding of the history and background on the region if you’re going to comment intelligently on the situation.
While Pec is nearly all Albanian currently, in any partition plan, the previous un-cleansed population must be taken into account. Serbs did have a significant population there before the KLA had their fun. This type of total cleansing should not be reward, regardless of what side committed those acts.
I would even go so far as to say we should take the ethnic cleansing and genocide committed during WWII into account. Serbs used to be the single largest ethnicity in Bosnia before the Ustashe’s policy of “Kill one third, Convert one third, Cleanse one Third”.
Anything short of a complete re-drawing of the maps in the Balkans will result in another war sometime in the future.
Do we all want to see the great EU experiment end the same way “Brotherhood and Unity” did? Do we really want to be responsible for something like that?
Again, I say, partitioning the Balkans along ethnic lines benefits BOTH Serbs and Albanians. Why don’t we stop haggling over the crumbs the “Great Powers” are tossing us and start to work together to come up with a real plan for peace and stability based upon mutually agreed upon conditions?
I suspect the Western Powers want the Balkans stable enough for business, but not stable enough to defend her own interests in a united EU.
Think Long Term and stop trying to get revenge on each other.
Jovan, I guess you must be kinda moderator...I get censured when I address you...let's this time."
I can assure you, I am not a moderator here, since I would never betray my fellow Serbs.
"- I stay calm while responding you on that: Kanun is more about the Albanian's (trade-mark) BESA: we never deny our word.
It does happen also that we are in vendetta situation. In this case our house becomes our castle. But this habit is in disuse now."
well this habit in disuse? just recently I saw a documentary about albanian policemen who had to protect a schoolyard since one of the children going to that school had to be protected because of a vendetta-problem. they even had to accompany this completely innocent boy home, where his father was sitting several years without having left it during that time.
personally, I think that this tv-doc is not wrong.
I leave it to the others to decide whether you are deliberately denying that, or just do not know what you say here.
" It cannot be used against us...unless an intrigue is involved."
you don´t get it it seems: nobody has to use that against you - you are harming yourselves. but that is your problem.
I asked you several times (some of them censured) to show facts about this pretension of yours: No official Serbian State Map (exclude flashlight invasions) have been shown us in this blog which include Kosovo/a before 1912. Until this date Serbia had a General Consulate in Pristina."
now,what is that??? are you kidding?
of course there is no official map before 1912, since Serbia had not liberated it´s southern province before that time. it was occupied territory until that date, and the Ottomans were the occupiers. which part of that you do not understand???
"The Anglo-Saxon nations have won all the wars the last 250 years."
like in Vietnam, Korea or at present in Iraq and Afghanistan, right?
"You're right to hope USA will change mind about Kosovo/a. If they do, it'll be fine, Kosova will change hands again. It was not Serbian or Albanians in Kosova, it was Russia or the West. The West prevailed this time."
I do not only hope it, it will happen. but I agree with you, it will be fine, even fine for the K-albanians too.
"Unless you show where we Albanians come from (so we can go there and build our vacations house or claim our cradle- as you are doing in Kosova) we'll remain Illyrians's sons and very comfortably so.
(gjon cima, 1 October 2008 17:06)"
Gjon Cima, if you don´t know it ... what shall I say? you come from the caucasus mountains, of course..
just like most of the other european nations, including the Serbs.
you may dream of being the descendants of the illyrians, I can understand that, given that your history is not that rich of great achievements, but nevertheless, it remains an illusion.
I do not have to prove anything here, my dear, just GO and READ some SERIOUS books about the Albanians, not that noel-malcolm-nonsense that is paid by the albanian lobby anyway.
if you want to check it, go and do a little bit of research, it was scientists from Chicago, who declared your illusionary illyrian myth as outdated.
OWN research would be great for you, instead of always pecking the "resources" that dilettantishly serve your illusion, like the often cited encyclopedia britannica in it´s edition from 1920-something...
that´s all the Albanians here have provided so far! pretty weak, if you ask me!
las but not least: please notice that I have nothing against Albanians in general. I am explicitly pointing that out in order to prevent you of accusing me as being a racist ( other Albanians here have done that, obviously not knowing that it is not about race at all... )
once again, I am NOT in any kind linked to B92. I admit I was a little bit upset when I read that part of your comment, that´s why I wrote that much now, although I am tired as a dog ( I do spent too much time on you anyway ), but this had to be said.
Bganon,
I do agree with a lot of what you say. I’m sorry if you thought that I was suggesting anything towards you personally. I was objecting to your position and its’ implications.
I do not agree with your attempt to create a casual link between the possibility of Serbs south Mitrovica having 2nd 3rd class citizenship and their desire leave or not to remain inside the new state.
I do not exclude the fact that you have valid reasons to prejudge the new state but too many of your variables are up in the air. All in all your link does not stand to scrutiny
1. you believe that this scenario will happen in all likelihood.
2. this condition would be prevalent and unchanged.
3. under the new sovereignty kosova will remain backward and poor, so resentful and with little prospect for Serbs.
4. current constitutional guaranties are not to be trusted.
5. current European stewardships and oversight are not good enough.
6. cooperation will between two people will be on a minimum
7. sociological contacts nonexistent
and we can go on for much longer
If you are on the other hand trying to suggest that your grievances are perceived ones, I am sure that those ones can be addressed. Perceived grievances are not convincing augments to preempt partition. It will be like trying to undo hundreds years of history. After all Kosova has been always shared by Serb and Albanian.
As for you other point of “But hey we could easily turn this argument round and I could insist that Kosovo should remain in Serbia and Albanians be treated with full rights - and that would be genuine”, I do hope that we have moved on from discussing that one.
There is already defacto partition and parallel institutions so Serbia cannot gain anything in making it official. It is only logical, in terms of Serbian interests to therefore reaffirm that 100% of Kosovo is a part of Serbia.
@Matthew - the reason that I haven't mentioned RS is that is almost an unknown entity to me. I wouldn't know where to find it on a map. Similar with a lot of the other local geographical references thrown up here (Malësia, Ulqin/Ulcinj, Preshevë, Medvegjë, Bujanoc, Pejë, Deçan, ...). They might be familiar to you, but for me they fall into the "There Be Dragons Here" category.
Does Tadic's support for Serbs in Kosovo end at the Iber river?
Is Serbia's love for its sanctuarities in Kosovo replacable with some piece of land?
Is Tadic maybe trying to sabotage his own iniciative on the GA with such provoking (not only Albanians) statements, just to get rid of Kosova the easiest way?
Those questions should be easily to answer by people, who support division on ethnic lines, don't they?
His telling us what every kosovar albanian knew for the last 10 yrs, Serbia has been aiming for this forever.
Does anyone really think that a wise move? Time for Kosovo to start playing Presevo/Bujanov/Medvege card, so serbia gets piece of north moitrovica and Albanians unite in one country...
Hey before anyone starts comming down on me just remember we never start trouble.. we finish it!
So if serbs are happy to unite with the serbs from north mitrovica we will unite with our people to our east.
Partition is not an option, this confirms that serbs have come to their last option, which i am sure it will fail. Kosova was and is albanian and never was serbian and we will never ever give up Kosova.
Sounds like someone is getting tired from these diplomatic "victories".
From the latest meeting between president Sejdiu and president Bush, the story is quite different:
Bush: "I'm a strong supporter of Kosovo's independence," the president said. "I'm against any partition of Kosovo."
Rada Trajkovic yesterday declaring that she was against the partitioning of Kosova. The majority of Serbs live away from Mitrovica, so it would be very interesting to see how Mr Tadic's master plan is going to be played out. - This is super silly!
"(...) Kosovo is Serbian teritory, it's Serbia's perrogative to give away land, not for albanians to demand parts of Serbia. Serbia will be dictating terms."
A little change of perspective, should show how foolish that argument is:
Kosovo is European territory, it's Europe's prerogative to give away land, not for Serbians to demand parts of Europe. Europe will be dictating terms.
This "we-are-a-majority-that-live-somewhere-else-but-we-still-get-to-decide-over-other-peoples-lives" is plain silly. All you have to do is to change the focus, and you can make any minority a majority, and you can make any majority a minority.
What you and your friends in Serbia will do with 15% of the population in order to protect 15% of the territory. App. 14% are Albanians which do not want to be ruled anymore from the rest of 86%. Albanians part of this territory or as it was considered always by Serbs, second hand citizens. Hier is the big challenge for any democratic country where Serbia pretend to be. I`v never heard any declaration from any Serbian saying that we want Kosovo back together with Albanians.
I think during Mr Tadic's visit to New York, he got told partition or nothing by the loyal friend Russia.If this statement is true and he was not miss quoted than it makes a mockery of the ICJ initiative.As a Kosovar-Albanian i say thanks but no thanks Mr Tadic,Kosova has got no territorial intention towards Serbia and so should you towards any neighbouring country.One good thing that came out of this statement is that at last Serbia is excepting reality that Kosova is gone.
(miki,
The Serbs will not settle for less than 25% of the Kosovo land mass.
My dear Miki Serbia does not dictate the terms here,the world actually has to care of what the K-Albanians will settle for,remember Serbia does not decide for K-Albanians we got our President,and our own representatives that will represent the newest nation.
>> The Serbs will not settle for less than 25% of the Kosovo land mass.
You are not even a Serb, but if it's divided they should to before N Mitrovica was excanged for Pesevo by Tito. Natural (i.e. above the river) and set (i.e. pre WWII) borders or nothing. No one will get a pencil and start haggling over land.
Kate, even honest Serb historians amit that the Alanians have lived there log before Serbs came in th eBalkans. It isn't an 'ethnic group stealing land,' it's an abused ethnic group becoming independent so they live in peace. No one can own land, it belongs either to the autochtones or to the people that live in it. Land changes legal ownership all the time (Kosova was Bulgarian, Byzatine, Serb, Turkish, Serb and soon Albanian)
This can work if Presevo is included, otherwise the Albanians will not agree and the time to negotiate is all but over. If Servs and Albanians agree, they can convince EU who hates 100% ethnic separation. Have Tadic offer this and Serbs solve their Albanian problem and Albanians have their country back.
We knew they cared about land by the way. All the partitions proposed by Serbs had th richest lands, not really the monasteries.
The thinking is slowly evolving in Serbia. Now Tadic needs to push a step further and think radical. Only yesterday Ehud Olmert proposed a new drastic way of thinking to secure a lasting peace for Israel.
Old considerations have to be outweighed by the prospect of a better future, free of fear and animosity.
What Olmert said yesterday rings very true for Serbia too.
“A decision has to be made,” he said. “This decision is difficult, terrible, a decision that contradicts our natural instincts, our innermost desires, our collective memories, the prayers of the Jewish people for 2,000 years.”
The plan envisages a complete withdrawal from the Palestinian land captured by 1967 war, including east Jerusalem.
Puts a new spin on the phrase “Kosovo is our Jerusalem” altogether.
Either the whole of the former Yugoslavia gets partitioned by ethnic division prior to the conflict or nothing at all. Why would we now talk about partition after hundreds of thousands of Serbians have been ethnically cleansed from both Croatia and our Southern province?
Sorry, but Tadic has overstepped the line and is showing signs of weakness. There cannot be any division of our land to the detriment of Serbians only. We were fighting for the partition option back in the 90s but it wasn't acceptable back then so why should it be now?
The only option, both morally and legally, is for the Albanians to rule themselves within Serbia's borders (more than autonomy, less than independence), which is more than they have now or will ever get. Even this status-quo and defacto partition is better than what Tadic is proposing.
Tadic needs to step aside and to allow someone more capable to take his place.
I think Serbia will take most of the northern and western parts of Kosovo, while the eastern and southern parts will go to the Kosovo Albanians. The Serbs will not settle for less than 25% of the Kosovo land mass.
"Maybe Mr Andersen is preoccupied with his drastic reduction in wealth due to the credit crunch to have noticed his child like errors."
Thank you for your concern mr ZORAN, but my wealth is going nowhere. I took the precation 3 years ago to secure my home with a loan that runs for 30 years at a fixed interest rate. I supposed I could have achived an initially interest rate if I had chosen a short amortization period, but I opted for a slightly higher interest rate in return for fixed rate. And while the paper-money of my stock options might be tanking at the moment, I am not actually loosing anything since I have no plans for selling those next the next 20 years.
ZORAN: "As Kosovo is an inalienable part of Serbia, it's plain to see that the Serbs form the vast majority of Serbia, so to try to claim that a minority is a majority in a province as justification for seperatism is idiotic - which 120+ countries seem to agree with."
So this is true as well:
As Chrimea is an inalienable part of Ukraine, it's plain to see that the Ukrainians form the vast majority of Ukrania, so to try to claim that a minority (Russians) is a majority in a province (Chrimea) as justification for seperatism is idiotic - which 120+ countries (except Russia) seem to agree with.
It is good to know that ZORAN will vehemently oppose any attempt from Russia to include Chrimea into the Russian Republic.
Let's try that logic somewhere else:
As Catalonia is an inalienable part of Spain, it's plain to see that the Spaniards form the vast majority of Spain, so to try to claim that a minority (Catalonians) is a majority in a province (Catalonia) as justification for seperatism is idiotic - except for the fact that Catalonia is enjoying increasing self-determination from Spain exactly because they are an majority in their region.
ZORAN: "There is NO country called Europe. Europe is a conglomeration of states, and each state is answerable to a higher body than the EU - the UN. All EU states must abide by UN law which takes precedence over state law and EU law."
Actually.... Europe is a not a conglemerate of states, if anything, it is a loosely defined geographic area. If Serbia wants to be considered part of Europe, it is YOUR logic that dictates that the majority of the people in those European countries should have the final say in what Serbia can and should do. Your logic, not mine. I will always maintain that it is the people that lives in the affected areas that have the final say. Russians on the Chrimia peninsula, South-Ossetians(?) in South-Ossetia Catalonians in Catalonia, Inuits in Greenland, Kosovo-Albanians in Kosova, and SERBS in MITROVICA. Very simple really.
ZORAN: "Europe, morally or legally, has no jurisdiction over Kosovo."
100% correct. Only the people living in Kosovo has jurisdiction over Kosovo. And only the Serbs living in Mitrovica has jurisdiction over Mitrovica.
ZORAN: "(...) hence i'll reiterate for the illiterate, it's Serbia perogative and no-one elses, to determine Kosovo's fate."
Repeating the same nonsense 1000 times does not make it any less nonsense.
ZORAN: "Besides, the EU and the US are in no fit state to dictate terms to anybody at the moment. Also, Denmarks attention will soon be shifting away from Kosovo, further north to the arctic as it watches Russia claim every square metre for itself."
That might well happend. Seems like the typical behaviour from any big state, or conglomeration of states. My hope is that they will have the decency to ask the Inuits in Canada and Greenland what they think of their intentions.
ZORAN: "So with all the rouble that the EU and US have to contend with at the moment, they'll gladly take any offers from Serbia to partition Kosovo and have one less problem to deal with."
Actually, it is not that big a problem. That big bailout-plan that failed to get approved by the US congress, the 700 billion USD plan, is approximately 3.5 times the annual GDP of Denmark. And we are a small nation of just 5.5 million people. So in reallity, this "big" bailout is equal to having the US-of-A completely support our little country for 3.5 years. Do you really think that effort would break the US economy?
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The population in Kosovo needs to be restored to represent the serbians that were ethnically cleansed by the albanian terrorists. Then it needs to be partitioned. After the partition an economic embargo needs to be placed on the albanian side of kosovo and let europe deal with the new welfare state it has created. Then Serbia needs to expel any illegal albanians in serbia proper. Serbia will be better off not having to deal with the Albanian question any longer.
Albanians have a long track record of having poor relations with their neighbors. Montengro, Macedonia, and Greece are next. Illiteracy, welfare, high crime rates, high birth rates, organized crime, religious and ethnic intolerance are all associated with these albanian statelets. And as far as the post about albanians not starting problems they just finish them. Pretty easy to act tough with NATO doing all of the hard work for you. Before NATO intervention all the world saw was the mighty KLA running, crying, and hiding. But once again thats the type of chest thumping we have come to expect from our albanian friends.
Bes - George Bush's promises are worthless. he's a lame duck.
Wth the US effectively bankrupt, it's influence on the world stage is greatly diminished as evidenced by the preliminary vote at the UN the other day.
Whether Tadic claims he was misquoted, etc, i think partition would be a good idea and draw and would draw a line under the whole affair.
question is, who would get what? And to pre-empt any answers, i don't think any swap for Bujanovac, presevo etc would be on the table as Kosovo is Serbian teritory, it's Serbia's perrogative to give away land, not for albanians to demand parts of Serbia. Serbia will be dictating terms.
This not a surprise, why do you think the Kosovars put the map of 100% Kosova in the flag...
I thought that Milosovic destroyed Serbia and Yugoslavia and as leader he was mad, with Tadic as an Albanian i actually respected his determination "not his ideas" but now this is absolutely the worst statement coming from a President that is going to the ICJ in two weeks time. He has just single handed brought the hole process of the so called diplomatic Serbian process on its knees.
If the Legendary President Ibrahim Rugova was alive he would probably think "they only ever wanted the gold,zinc, copper in the north part of Mitrovica" estimated at around £100billion value, we will never give up Mitrovica, there are still 100 thousand Kosovar Albanians still living in n.Mitrovica they are not going anywhere, otherwise as you know the Albanians will start on the serbs in the rest of the enclaves in the Republic of Kosovo...
Maybe Mr Andersen is preoccupied with his drastic reduction in wealth due to the credit crunch to have noticed his child like errors.
"This "we-are-a-majority-that-live-somewhere-else-but-we-still-get-to-decide-over-other-peoples-lives" is plain silly" This argument is plain stupid to any objective observer. As Kosovo is an inalienable part of Serbia, it's plain to see that the Serbs form the vast majority of Serbia, so to try to claim that a minority is a majority in a province as justification for seperatism is idiotic - which 120+ countries seem to agree with.
There is NO country called Europe. Europe is a conglomeration of states, and each state is answerable to a higher body than the EU - the UN. All EU states must abide by UN law which takes precedence over state law and EU law.
Europe, morally or legally, has no jurisdiction over Kosovo. As recognised by the UN, Kosovo is a province of Serbia, pure and simple, hence i'll reiterate for the illiterate, it's Serbia perogative and no-one elses, to determine Kosovo's fate.
Besides, the EU and the US are in no fit state to dictate terms to anybody at the moment. Also, Denmarks attention will soon be shifting away from Kosovo, further north to the arctic as it watches Russia claim every square metre for itself.
So with all the rouble that the EU and US have to contend with at the moment, they'll gladly take any offers from Serbia to partition Kosovo and have one less problem to deal with.
Serbia will be the main power broker at the table dictating terms to the Kosovar Albanians, not the EU, US or Albanians. You'd be mindful to know your place, learn some humility and come to reality to see the situation for what it is.
This is the last card in the hands of Serbian policy. And this will have dramatic implications in the region. I am sure Tadic is very well advised to use this card. And I am sure this is a typical Russian diplomacy. For any patriot in Serbia Kosovo can not be devided. And this is not because of loosing some other areas (Presheva and Bujanovc), which are such important, but because of a 1000 year history, which according to every history book in Serbia,(Kosovo) is the heart of Serbia. This option announced by an official is a pure provocation especially toward the Albanians in Kosovo, who according to the Serbian history, are very passionate and can create incidents. That´s the best could happen for Serbia especially in the phase of decisions in New York. This provocation will be extended with the next declaration. Annexation of Republika Srpska. Welcome to the next Balkan war started again from Serbs. This is the end of Tadic era.
‘By the way if Kosovo is eventually split a condition would be maintaining the highest degree of rights for minorities that remain outside their 'mother' country. Without guarantees of this kind no deal should be signed’.
Bgangon, You seem to have no problem with a minority within the minority to be given these guarantees, but you object to the minority as a whole having these guarantees in the first place.
Hmm, maybe this has something to do with your perceived sense of loss. Anything I can get would ease the pain and my wounded pride.
You rightly point out to the impracticality of having ethnically pure territories but then you go on wishing a little of this division anyway.
If I understood you right, this is nothing to do with ideology but only serves the greater good of normalizing situation in Kosova. Well I can sympathise with that plight. Northern tip of Kosova belongs to people who live there, but that doesn’t exclusively implies partition. The argument of destabilisation was used greatly before independence’s declaration, but failed to materialise. The place is relatively quiet and is getting better with time. The insistence on partition has in my opinion something to do with your perceptions of Albanians. But perceptions are not set in stone and change over time.
Your present government has gradually and successfully shifted the debate from your “Kosovo ideology and myth” into a debate over legality. If people are moving away from that ideology, that’s always progress in my eyes.
Would the Serbian commentators on this side favor a partition of Presevo valley in exchange for Leposavic or a partition of Sanxhak(Novi Pazar)in exchange for RS(Banja Luka), or do the Serbs wish the Magyars in Vojvodina to form their own country also. If the answer is YES, well don't blame the Albanians about the word PRECEDENT, that has been used so often. If the answer is NO then there is no problem unless you can not live without a problem.
"Jovan;...….. Historical facts,our language, our name (ALBANI were one of many ILLYRIAN tribes) suggest that we are indead the true heirs to this lands. DARDANI the ILLYRIAN tribe that always lived in Kosovo take their name from the pear orchards.It was once a Majestic land streaching as far north as the Danube.You will find historical facts very healthy if you researched Latin or ancient Greek texts.
(pleurat, 1 October 2008 16:36) "
Sounds like a fairy tale to me. Thats why every building, historical structure and monument of significance was built by Serbs eh? the albanian historical footprint in kosovo is virtually nill.
Partition of Kosovo is opposed by both sides. Considering that, this statement effords much courage, so let's cool down and think about that.
Kosovo-matter can not be solved by insisting on formal or historical incidence. One can not deploy Albanians even if Kosovo is of big importance for serbian heritage. On the other hand one can not ask Serbs to live in a new country and to tear avay from their Serbian motherland. The independence of Kosovo was important to get a long term perspective for this region. The formal borders of Kosovo have no substanial importance, therefore it is appropriate to separate Kosovo and give the Serbs what they already owe.
Let us not forget, one should not interlink this matter with Albanians living in the Presevo valley, since Kosovo has been part conflict not any other part.
If partition brings a good end to the Kosovo matter (I'm not talking about Albanian-matter), then it should be considered.
What this is about in my opinion is seeking a just solution to the Kosovo problem, about being able to move forward.
If Serbs and Albanians decide some kind of division is the best solution then the internationals should back off and not impose their own solution.
By the way if Kosovo is eventually split a condition would be maintaining the highest degree of rights for minorities that remain outside their 'mother' country. Without guarantees of this kind no deal should be signed.
This isn't about selling out Serbs living south of the Ibar or Albanians north of it. Nor is it about nasty ethinc theories about how one ethnic group should live here and another there.
Its about normalising the situation in Kosovo and letting people living there have ordinary lives of the kind seen in the rest of Europe.
ZORAN wrote: "Kosovo is Serbian teritory, it's Serbia's perrogative to give away land, not for albanians to demand parts of Serbia. Serbia will be dictating terms."
You replied: "A little change of perspective, should show how foolish that argument is:
"Kosovo is European territory, it's Europe's prerogative to give away land, not for Serbians to demand parts of Europe. Europe will be dictating terms."
Jan, You are legally wrong about that. 'Europe' does not own any land, apart from maybe the EU owning the sites of their various buildings.
Countries own land (and please don't throw back moral arguments about people owning land - I am talking about reality and law, not populist theory). Legally Kosovo remains part of Serbia. The UN, EU, US and all other parties know that this is the case.
Why do you think that EULEX is not able to deploy? Because they are acting under the UN, and the UN fully recognises that Kosovo remains part of Serbia.
Would you be happy for a single ethnic group to cut off 15% of your territory wherever you live? Obviously so.
"Kosovo is European territory, it's Europe's prerogative to give away land, not for Serbians to demand parts of Europe. Europe will be dictating terms."
People like Danish Jan Andersen with their EU technocrat superstate thinking and mentality will become responsible for the complete downfall of Europe (in reality they have already started the process in 1991). Serbia is a sovereign country that is located in Europe and that is not a member of the EU or NATO. You or anybody else for that matter has to keep their nose out of our business. If you like it so much than please give away parts of your Danish kingdom to establish a new Muslim country or give away parts of your neighbors soil because Europe thinks that is a good idea (the Swedes and Germans will be quite upset). Or give away a part of Texas to the Hispanics, declare Basque region and Corsica independent, and so on. Stop being such an uneducated and ignorant person.
Don't do it Mr. Tadic!! Serbs weren't "allowed" independence in Krajna and aren't "allowed" independence in Bosna. The Albanians in Kosovo had all that they wanted and it's kind of funny because there doesn't exist the need to create a new country for them. This country already exists and it's called Albania. This truly has become a farce because I can't think of any ethnic group in this World that can claim two nations of their own...smarten up Tadic and don't give up.
First wanting All kosova, then agreeing to partition and get at least some of Kosova. The next and final step is agreeing to give up all Kosova.
Kosova is an independent country and there is no need for the serb government to waste time, efforts and money to try to get back Kosova because it will not happen.
"The best case solution is still a dual-administrative system, something like Bosnia. Knowing the Serbs I know, they're happy with an RS status for Serb sectors of Kosovo"
Mike,that is not doable for one reason: geography. RS is in one area. You cannot have 25 RS's in a small country like Kosova. You are right about independence, US (UK, Germany, France, Turkey, Japan, Canada, Sweden etc etc) will not change it's mind, and even then ultimately Albanians will say no even if US changes it's mind. Wars are over for the Balkans as long as NATO /EU are intact. They only way is to have EU monitor human rights OR work out an exchange with the Albanians: Presevo for N Mitrovica and maybe a strip to Decani for Montenegro. EU hates this because Hungarians might want to join Hungary, Albanians in Montenegro Albania etc.
>>> Albanians have a long track record of having poor relations with their neighbors
Serbia is the only one to have declared to ALL it's neighbors, and sent tanks there. If people hate us because we don't expect second class citizenship, that's actually a compliment.
Got to laugh at these Albanians and Krasniqi in particular - you guys having the cheek to talk about borders when your so called state lies within the territory of another country (SERBIA) a UN member.
It's like they believe they can say black is white.
WAKE UP!
Stay in prison and believe the hype that leads down a dead end street!
Partition OK, but a reciprosity partiton for all the region:south Serbia,Macedonia,MonteNegro,Bosnia&Herzegovina,Kosova and Croatia.
But what does it mean mr. Tadic "Only War".
I think that we should use minority grups as a conetction line between our nations and not for a territorial partition.
Thank you!!!
On 30 September 2008 16:58, Dino Hamilton, Canada wrote:
"(..) I can't think of any ethnic group in this World that can claim two nations of their own."
I can, I can even think of 3: Denmark, Norway and Sweden. We have been at war with each other for hundreds of years, we have swapped land areas countless of times, yet we speak almost the same language, eat almost the same kind of food and drink the same kind of beer, and since 1958 we have had free travel without the need of passports (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union).
PS: Icelanders belong to the same ethnic group, but they have a somewhat different language. So that makes it 4 countries.
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"So you will have a perfect chance to prove your words by helping to split beatiful Denmark into pieces to accomodate Muslim demands"
1. Albanians aren't 'Muslims,' they are Albanians
2. Serbs fought Croatia and Slovenia (both Catholic) over land
3. Albanians are AUTOCHTONES in Kosovo, so if you bring up history go a bit further back.
4. Serbs almost went to war with Montengro, 100% brothers, and the Churches are still bickering.
5. There is no such thing as "Serbian land" or "Bulgarian land" for that matter. No one ones it for ever, people who live there do. You can look at how many rulers and nations have 'owned' Kosova over the centuries.
serbia don't want kosovO,how serbia can want something what's already serbian property?,it is a serbian province only occupied at this moment.
others have done it in history and now is USA doing it.
history will repeat, kosovo is serbian!
"Hey Danish man (are you really Danish, incidentally ?)"
Sure is. I can trace my ancestors back some 400 years here.
Boriska: "(...) they might start carving their own piece of land, merely because they have become a majority :-)"
Yep, that is the beauty of democracy. Just as the Israeli Jews are about to realize, that soon the Palestinians living in Israel will suddenly be in majority and can implement their wishes through a democratic process.
Boriska: "So, do you think many of Danish will happily give their land away, as you suggest Serbs should ?"
I don't speak for anyone but myself, but it really doesn't matter if people are happy about it or not. If the majority decides that this is how it is supposed to be, then there is not much anyone can do. Besides, it is not a question of "giving" anything away. If a minority in Denmark becomes large enough to aspire to some kind of division of Denmark they will most like own substantial land areas in/around the area where they plan on creating their own little country.
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"Jan, You are legally wrong about that. 'Europe' does not own any land, apart from maybe the EU owning the sites of their various buildings."
Geographic areas do not own land.
kate: "Countries own land (and please don't throw back moral arguments about people owning land - I am talking about reality and law, not populist theory)."
But I will throw that back at you! I have an owners deed on my property, legally signed and sealed by the Notarius Publicus. And only in exceptional cases can the Danish state force me to sign over my property and in that case they will have to compensate me financially or otherwise.
People own property. PERIOD.
kate: "Legally Kosovo remains part of Serbia. The UN, EU, US and all other parties know that this is the case."
And Greenland legally belongs to Denmark? And therefore Denmark, and only Denmark, should decide if the Inuits can have independence? How about the Faroe Islands in the North Atlantic? The inhabitants there have no right to decide for themselves if they want independence or not? Allow me to repeat what I said earlier to ZORAN:
I will always maintain that it is the people that lives in the affected areas that have the final say. Russians on the Chrimia peninsula, South-Ossetians(?) in South-Ossetia Catalonians in Catalonia, Inuits in Greenland, Kosovo-Albanians in Kosova, and SERBS in MITROVICA. Very simple really.
kate: "Why do you think that EULEX is not able to deploy? Because they are acting under the UN, and the UN fully recognises that Kosovo remains part of Serbia."
Ohhh - they are able to deploy, they are just playing nice for the time being trying to work out some kind of agreement. If and when the decission is made that enough is enough, they will be all over Kosovo. It is not something I hope for though. I prefer a mutual and peaceful agreement.
kate: "Would you be happy for a single ethnic group to cut off 15% of your territory wherever you live? Obviously so."
Obviously I would. If some ethnic group decided to buy up 60-70% of one of the larger Danish islands and settled there as the local majority, I would be the first the congratulate them. I assume you already know my motto: "Independence for everyone, twice on Sundays".
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Hi Matthew,long time no see!
It is nice to have you back.
I like your idea,but when it comes to Pec/Peja and Decani it will be difficult!
Thanks to Mr.Haradinaj there is hardly a Serb soul left in that area!He is our hero if you know what I mean!
Kosovo is the newest country in the World and is place for everyone who lives there!
The biggest task is how to integrate Serbs in Kosovan Institutions and once that is done,we will be just fine!
By the way I am very impressed with the comments of bganon,he is the new Mike and Matthew I liked!
Cheerio from London!
there is no state "kosova", it´s an occupied part of the state of Serbia.
next: you don´t have to go back further in history, since the K-albanians, or to be more precise, all Albanians lack to be the descendants of the Illyrians. that´s wishful thinking.
the Illyrians were assimilated by all the nations that arrive d in the balkans.
it´s the same with todays Albanians, the only reason why some part of their language has similarities with illyrian languages is, that the Albanians had no consolidated community or put another way: they were a loose tribe without any national identity.
that´s why they took over illyrian words, while all others nations have their own.
but trying to sell this legend of "honest serbian historians who "amit" ( check your spelling my friend ) that the Albanians were there before - is simple nonsense.
in the late 80ies, US-american historians and archeologists were researching in southern Serbia, and they found nothing whatsoever... nothing that indicates towards anything our dear albanian friends here believe to be.
the illyrian myth is outdated, my dear albanian friends. you should learn the truth about your ancestry, and not believe in nonsense...
There is already defacto partition and parallel institutions so Serbia cannot gain anything in making it official. It is only logical, in terms of Serbian interests to therefore reaffirm that 100% of Kosovo is a part of Serbia.
come on, kids... that´s something you should really forget about. as this new guy, Tesla, wrote it. "no partition, end of story".
as far as I am concerned, ...now you are suddenly finding out what you have in common? how funny is that!
of course we all have some ( rather negative ) things we share, and as a civilized and progressive european, I am certainly not proud of that.
interestingly, many Albanians seem to see it the same way, since they constantly stay calm when I confront them with the fact, that a great number of male Albanians cannot leave home, because of the kanun-tradition, since they are only safe at home.
let´s stick to the facts, my friends, and that is no question about being "moderate" or not..., Kosovo is Serbia, all of it. and that is not only a historical fact, it is also a legal fact, UNSC 1244 CONFIRMS it.
so, it is only a question of time, until the US as the main force behind this socalled "independence" have to accept the inevitable - they will sooner or later have to change their policies.
and the Balkans, and especially Serbia will be a wealthy and prosperous region, once the Albanians let go their illusion of being the Illyrians´s sons and finally realize that it is Serbia they are living in.
only then, there will be peace and stability in the region.
Jovan;.......................Historical facts,our language, our name (ALBANI were one of many ILLYRIAN tribes) suggest that we are indead the true heirs to this lands. DARDANI the ILLYRIAN tribe that always lived in Kosovo take their name from the pear orchards.It was once a Majestic land streaching as far north as the Danube.You will find historical facts very healthy if you researched Latin or ancient Greek texts.
"Albanians seem to see it the same way, since they constantly stay calm when I confront them with the fact"
Jovan, I guess you must be kinda moderator...I get censured when I address you...let's this time.
- I stay calm while responding you on that: Kanun is more about the Albanian's (trade-mark) BESA: we never deny our word.
It does happen also that we are in vendetta situation. In this case our house becomes our castle. But this habit is in disuse now. It cannot be used against us...unless an intrigue is involved.
"...let´s stick to the facts, my friends, and that is no question about being "moderate" or not..., Kosovo is Serbia, all of it. and that is not only a historical fact, it is also a legal fact..."
I asked you several times (some of them censured) to show facts about this pretension of yours: No official Serbian State Map (exclude flashlight invasions) have been shown us in this blog which include Kosovo/a before 1912. Until this date Serbia had a General Consulate in Pristina.
"so, it is only a question of time, until the US as the main force behind this socalled "independence" have to accept the inevitable - they will sooner or later have to change their policies".
The Anglo-Saxon nations have won all the wars the last 250 years. You're right to hope USA will change mind about Kosovo/a. If they do, it'll be fine, Kosova will change hands again. It was not Serbian or Albanians in Kosova, it was Russia or the West. The West prevailed this time.
"...the Balkans, and especially Serbia will be a wealthy and prosperous region, once the Albanians let go their illusion of being the Illyrians´s sons and finally realize that it is Serbia they are living in."
Unless you show where we Albanians come from (so we can go there and build our vacations house or claim our cradle- as you are doing in Kosova) we'll remain Illyrians's sons and very comfortably so.
The only way Serbs will accept partition is if Bosnia is also partitioned. Republika Srpska wants desperately to join Serbia, and if that is packaged together with the partitioning of Kosovo, it may be acceptable. Otherwise, forget it, no deal. This is what Tadic should be telling the so called 'civilized west', if he has any brains at all.
there can be no partition, because that would mean treason.
and I think even Mr. Tadic knows what would happen to him, if he betrayed his own people.
and there is absolutely no reason to divide anything: UNSC 1244 is very clear on this.
Serbia has the moral right, the law and history on her side. so if Mr. Tadic is proposing something like that and given that he does it in a time when the main opponents of a peaceful and legitimate solution are suffering of serious economical problems, it indicates that he is not following serbian interests.
let´s hope the serbian people say a loud and clear NO to this irresponsible statement.
bganon, what are you talking about? Are you Tadic's shadow or something? Because you seem to continually support his ideas blindly and have no problem appeasing the dictators. That is weak as far as I'm concerned and now is the time to stand firm because time is on our side.
Yes, I support the defacto partition, sure, where Serbians and Albanians rule their areas of influence but only within the borders of Serbia. Why are we talking about formal partition now after it has been denied to Serbians in both Croatia and BiH after so many years of conflict?
Either we talk about partitioning the whole former Yugoslavia based on ethnic divisions (the pre-war makeup) or we don't talk about it at all.
There is no other option but to stand firm and to demand our territorial integrity because the Serbians otherwise get the worst of both worlds (i.e. denied it where we had large minorities but allowed it for minorities living in Serbia).
Tadic is weak and needs to move aside before he does some severe damage to Serbia. He is obviously not up to the task.
I'm not a fan of partition for a number of reasons. The most obvious being a paritition would naturally be drawn at the Ibar where Serbia takes everything north, and abandons everything south. To me this is unacceptible because it effectively abandons all enclaves and sectors in the central and southern parts of Kosovo, will generate a major demographic shift all all remaining Serbs, and leaves the most important monasteries and cultural monuments at the mercy of Albanians and the goodwill of the international community.
Also, as much as I would like otherwise, I'm afraid "substantial autonomy" is no longer a viable issue. Unless something catastrophic happens, the US will not relent on its push to prop up Kosovo as a state.
The best case solution is still a dual-administrative system, something like Bosnia. Knowing the Serbs I know, they're happy with an RS status for Serb sectors of Kosovo: the north is theirs, the monasteries are theirs, and the smaller enclaves still have authority over their own affairs within the greater context of EU cooperation.
This may be Tadic's goal all along, but he can't actually say it yet. Let's see what transpires in the ICJ.
Partition of the Balkans along ethnic lines benefits both the Serbs and the Albanians. Let us together set a peaceful precedent on how the future of the Balkans in Europe will look.
Give the Albanians Presevo and half of Macedonia, and we’ll take the North, Pec, Decani and RS.
Tadic has very good timing on his proposal, and I think it will give strength to our arguments at the ICJ.
OR…
Bring the entire Balkans into the EU in one shot, and change the voting districts every 10 years based on Ethnicity, that really is the most sensible stable solution. A sort of Super Yugo and at the same time a mini EU…
"However, Kosovo leaders have dismissed Tadić’s remarks concerning a partition, labeling them “unacceptable“. "
With Rugova passed away, there aren't many leaders in Kosovo whom I can call "leader". They are mostly gangsters. Serbian government should discuss the matter with legit government of Albania, not with gangsters. Their place is in Serbian or Albanian prison.
That discussion did not happen yet. Other forces including all Camp Bondseel have to go home. At their current state, both Serbia and Albania can discuss what to do without the danger, things go upside down in Kosovo.
Ultimately, the solution between Albania and Serbia (and Montenegro and Macedonia and BiH) is a single borderless entity, consisting of several self-governing entities with division on ethnic/whatever-to-be-decided administrative lines. Camp Bondseel does not have a place there - even if some K-Albanians feel, it adds to their security. It actually does not, but it takes time to discover it.
Actually partition would be a reduced Serbia as stands. There is no way that Serbia should have to give up any of her land at all - I just can't see an option other than partition and special status for the enclaves.
But diplomacy so far has been very smart - I would like to know what Vuk Jeremic has in mind.
Mike - I agree that there may be some sort of other solution, perhaps even already on the cards. But Bosnia appears to be in chaos and mess - not a good precedent.
Tadic by mentioning this has he accept the fact that Kosova is legaly independent.
he has at last said that what serbians intention was all the time: to get the northern part with Trepca mine which is very rich with minerals! It will never happen!Never Ever! remmember Kosova is not alone! How correct will sound if Tadic would be sugested to partion Serbia in to Sanjak (going to Bosnia, Northern Vojvodina to Hungary, Presheva region to Kosova, Vestern Macedonia to Kosova and Albania, Ulqin, Plava , Gucia and Tivar(Bar) to Albania, Chameria to Albania. This would mean Serbia would lose 50 prosent of its todays teritory.
Kosova is stronger now and has strong friends and relatives!
the only reason Mr Tadic asked for partition is to scare Macedonia and Montenegro that they might end up been seperated on ethnic groups. A smart person and a good politican can see that.
Does Tadic's support for Serbs in Kosovo end at the Iber river?
Is Serbia's love for its sanctuarities in Kosovo replacable with some piece of land?
Is Tadic maybe trying to sabotage his own iniciative on the GA with such provoking (not only Albanians) statements, just to get rid of Kosova the easiest way?
Those questions should be easily to answer by people, who support division on ethnic lines, don't they?
"Will you stand firm behind Muslims taking a piece of Denmark and making it their own country when they become a majority there?"
I will not stand behind anyone TAKING anything.
I will stand behind anyone that uses their democratic right, their right vote, and whatever other political influence they can muster, to implement whatever changes they deem necessary. That includes changing the Danish constitution, renaming it to Muslimland, or paint it in green and yellow.
The only point of contention would be if they wanted to change the constitution and remove universal humans rights such as my control of my own body, my freedom of speech, my right to own property, my right to behave as I wish inside my own 4 walls, etc, etc.
If only I had more time to post and to email folks. It is good however, to hear moderate Albanian voices here. Bganon also has my deep respect, although we differ on many economic issues, our views towards society are very similar.
Actually, my perspective on the issue is probably most like Jan’s here, and I have to admit, at least his view is consistent in its application. I do think he’d find a more receptive audience here if he mentioned independence for RS as often as he mentions Kosovo.
You see Jan, we Serbs are a little sensitive about such issues, we feel that its “Independence for Everyone” BUT Serbs.
It does seem to me that partition is the most logical course of action, and I’m glad Tadic finally let it out of the bag. It of course makes it more likely Serbia will get a favorable solution in the ICJ. It does seem to be a solution that everyone can *live* with, but no one will love it. It also leaves plenty of opportunity for negotiation on what form that partition will take.
In most cases I agree with Jan, however, I do feel that areas of significant cultural identity deserve to take other factors besides merely ethnicity in its determining a final status.
Keep in mind genocide includes cultural destruction, so clearly an ethnicity’s identity is important and must be considered.
That’s why I support the establishment of Israel as a State even though traditionally Jews were not a majority, and wouldn’t be if all the ethnically cleansed Palestinians and their descendents were allowed back into Israel. That is also why I find the issue of East Jerusalem so vexing, its inhabited by Palestinians, but important culturally to the Jews, and the Muslims and the Christians. What to do? I like to see it as the Capital of the UN and an independent State in itself. Its sacred to the majority of the world and should belong to all of us.
That’s also why the issue of Pec and Decani are going to require some creative thinking.
Serbs are going to need some way of feeling that our important Churches there are truly free and independent.
Vatican status perhaps? That might put the general Serb population at ease with the situation.
Trade for something super important? Nis? Lot’s of farmland? Enough cash for the people of Pec and Decani to buy Castles on the Coast and live good forever?
I’d be very interested in hearing some creative ideas from the Albanian side on how to deal with those regions. Of course, rights for minorities and freedom of religion are absolute givens already in any resulting situation.
I personally like the idea of giving Pec and Decani to my homeland, Montenegro in exchange for Bar to the Albanians and parts of the north to the Serbians.
Montenegrins and Albanians aren’t really so different, and we share clans for Christ’s sake. We, more than anyone else helped shape and form the so called “Kosovo Myth”, why not be their guardian? We’re a tourist based economy and already have Ostrog, why not add two very important cultural sites? We have a very bright future, I think we’re next after Croatia in getting into the EU. Most certainly the standard of living would be best for those people under Montenegro than anyone else.
It will never happen: one, this is much worst from a precedent perspective, it involves REALLY changing the borders and EU hates that idea.
(Dashnori i Ceces, 1 October 2008 12:57)
international borders can be changed if there is mutual consent of all parties involved. that wouldn't be a precedent for anything from the legal point of view. and the eu doesn't mind changing the borders or no eu state would recognise kosovo, which is a precedent no matter what everyone says precisely because there is no consent of all concerned parties.
i understand albanians want independence, but that's not a reason to be out of touch with reality.
Well I'd like to thank participants for a quite frank discussion of characteristics of the people who live in our part of the world.
But I would ask again, if we can drop the retoric when we choose, could we not honestly and openly discuss what should be the future of Kosovo in the same way some of us are doing here?
Why can we not negotiate and see if we can come to agreement? If we fail, then at least we made the attempt but I say again we have not had real, genuine negotiations, just as we have had few frank discussions on this topic.
A real solution is possible and we have to believe that, or things will never change.
Jovan, I guess you must be kinda moderator...I get censured when I address you...let's this time."
I can assure you, I am not a moderator here, since I would never betray my fellow Serbs.
"- I stay calm while responding you on that: Kanun is more about the Albanian's (trade-mark) BESA: we never deny our word.
It does happen also that we are in vendetta situation. In this case our house becomes our castle. But this habit is in disuse now."
well this habit in disuse? just recently I saw a documentary about albanian policemen who had to protect a schoolyard since one of the children going to that school had to be protected because of a vendetta-problem. they even had to accompany this completely innocent boy home, where his father was sitting several years without having left it during that time.
personally, I think that this tv-doc is not wrong.
I leave it to the others to decide whether you are deliberately denying that, or just do not know what you say here.
" It cannot be used against us...unless an intrigue is involved."
you don´t get it it seems: nobody has to use that against you - you are harming yourselves. but that is your problem.
I asked you several times (some of them censured) to show facts about this pretension of yours: No official Serbian State Map (exclude flashlight invasions) have been shown us in this blog which include Kosovo/a before 1912. Until this date Serbia had a General Consulate in Pristina."
now,what is that??? are you kidding?
of course there is no official map before 1912, since Serbia had not liberated it´s southern province before that time. it was occupied territory until that date, and the Ottomans were the occupiers. which part of that you do not understand???
"The Anglo-Saxon nations have won all the wars the last 250 years."
like in Vietnam, Korea or at present in Iraq and Afghanistan, right?
"You're right to hope USA will change mind about Kosovo/a. If they do, it'll be fine, Kosova will change hands again. It was not Serbian or Albanians in Kosova, it was Russia or the West. The West prevailed this time."
I do not only hope it, it will happen. but I agree with you, it will be fine, even fine for the K-albanians too.
"Unless you show where we Albanians come from (so we can go there and build our vacations house or claim our cradle- as you are doing in Kosova) we'll remain Illyrians's sons and very comfortably so.
(gjon cima, 1 October 2008 17:06)"
Gjon Cima, if you don´t know it ... what shall I say? you come from the caucasus mountains, of course..
just like most of the other european nations, including the Serbs.
you may dream of being the descendants of the illyrians, I can understand that, given that your history is not that rich of great achievements, but nevertheless, it remains an illusion.
I do not have to prove anything here, my dear, just GO and READ some SERIOUS books about the Albanians, not that noel-malcolm-nonsense that is paid by the albanian lobby anyway.
if you want to check it, go and do a little bit of research, it was scientists from Chicago, who declared your illusionary illyrian myth as outdated.
OWN research would be great for you, instead of always pecking the "resources" that dilettantishly serve your illusion, like the often cited encyclopedia britannica in it´s edition from 1920-something...
that´s all the Albanians here have provided so far! pretty weak, if you ask me!
las but not least: please notice that I have nothing against Albanians in general. I am explicitly pointing that out in order to prevent you of accusing me as being a racist ( other Albanians here have done that, obviously not knowing that it is not about race at all... )
once again, I am NOT in any kind linked to B92. I admit I was a little bit upset when I read that part of your comment, that´s why I wrote that much now, although I am tired as a dog ( I do spent too much time on you anyway ), but this had to be said.
ZK UK: I agree with you on many things but I have to say that bganon makes some sense when s/he says:
"If Serbs and Albanians decide some kind of division is the best solution then the internationals should back off and not impose their own solution.
"By the way if Kosovo is eventually split a condition would be maintaining the highest degree of rights for minorities that remain outside their 'mother' country. Without guarantees of this kind no deal should be signed."
It's not my country, and therefore my point of view is not necessarily the same as if I were Serbian. But with the ICJ ruling coming up I think that it's exactly the right time for Tadic to show willing.
Mentioning partition as an option is a gesture of being open to new realistic discussions and if it were to happen there would need to be many conditions attached.
That most certainly would not include any deal on Presevo or other areas that are part of Serbia.
Morally all of Kosovo should remain part of Serbia, but I think that realistically a partition may be the only option. I hope that I'm wrong, but better to have a deal that gives Serbia the upper hand in negotiations.
The other thing which I know that you'll strongly disagree with, is that I think Tadic and Jeremic are doing a pretty good job in a very difficult situation.
If I recall, it was russian FM Lavrov who suggested this move first. No sense in attacking Tadic for someone else's idea. Secondly, this statement may have simply been political posturing to give the RS political fuel to seperate from BIH. As I understand it, most of the inhabitants for RS want out anyways. Dodik has been pretty quiet about a referendum or seperation in the last few months, they may be planning something after the October elections especially in light of the "bosniak" president statements at the UN GA last week. Once the UN/EU money pool dries up...we'll see what happens in RS.
Mr Andersen nothing you have said has countered any of my arguments. The issue is very straightforward. Due to Albanian nationalism, Albanians want to creat a Greater Albania by illegally annexing Kosovo, hoping to gain legitimacy and ultimately to join Albania.
Following YOUR line of logic, if this is acceptable then you should be blocking Croatia's accession to the EU, granting the creation of the state of Krajina and the partition of Bosnia.
Yes, Serbia does want to join the EU and the EU should rightfully have a say in the Balkans but should not break international law in the process.
As for Europe, make your mind up. Either it is a "club" in which case you state it should have a say in Serbia's internal affairs, or it's a loose Geographical area, in which case it shoudln't , similar to the US having no say in Canada even though they are part of North America.
Ukraine - when did i suggest the partition of it along ethnic lines? Never. i don't support Russia on this issue, or in relation to SO and Abkhazia.
Catalonia - increasing self determination but they are DENIED independence.
So, like I keep repeating, Kosovo is a legal part of Serbia as recognised by the highest laws on this planet and as such only Serbia can determine Kosovo's future, not the US< EU or anyone else.
As an aside here are a couple more facts. 1) Stock options don't last for 20 years.
2) $700 Billion is the headline figure, the estimated total cost to the US will be nearer $4 TRILLION and as total US debt is roughly $10.5 Trillion, that is an enormous increase even for the US and will create a lot more trouble than you seem to understand.
That economic lesson/discussion you'll have to find elsewhere. it'll take ages to describe the possible full effects to you.
You seem to have no problem with a minority within the minority to be given these guarantees, but you object to the minority as a whole having these guarantees in the first place.
Village bey, Far from it Serbs inside Kosovo should have the same rights as Albanians outside. It works every which way for me - whatever solution we end up with. What I want to guard against is second / third class status for say Albanians in N Mitrovica and Serbs in S Mitrovica - if there is some kind of division or not.
No pride isn't my specialty, as you should know by now. I settle for jobs, prosperity and peace. I leave the overblown sense of pride to the misguided.
But hey we could easily turn this argument round and I could insist that Kosovo should remain in Serbia and Albanians be treated with full rights - and that would be genuine. However, the fact is that Albanians don't want to remain in Serbia and the fact is that neither do Kosovo Serbs (or Belgrade) want to live in a new state called Kosova. So lets compromise.... There are not a whole lot of options.
I don't have pre-conceptions of Albanians. I have Albanian friends and am not interested in those false differences. I also think that Albanians perception of Serbs will change over time, but for many Albanians, I hope you will agree, the clock stopped in 98/99. That is useful in terms of not having to look at ones own behaviour, by the constant portrayal of a people as victim. A people with a real or imagined grievience, as you know, are not exactly easy to live with.
ZK Come on don't be funny, you know very well (as do most people here, even if they don't agree) that my position on Kosovo pre-dates Tadic's statement.
I'll admit a few times something I have said Tadic has come out with some days later, but with respect, that hardly makes me his follower. It does mean he is getting something right though!
He's hardly likely to stand down just after being elected is he? I mean you called for his head practically moments after he was elected, just as you called for this government to fall within seconds of its election. Calm down and give the man a chance.
And your language 'now is time to stand firm'... Come on. Thats what we heard in the 90's and look where that got us? Does it look like we stood firm? Does it look like the anti-negotiation attitude worked for us? Quite the opposite, in the 90's we didn't need to stand firm, we needed to negotiate and the same applies today. How many thousands of lives could have been saved if we had focused on negotiations, not patting ourselves on the back for having one of the largest armies in Europe? How many Serbs and other nationalities could still be living in their homes over the former Yugoslavia?
But I really don't have the slightest clue on your statement that Serbia was looking to partition Kosovo or Yugoslavia in the 90's. Who told you that?
It was the Serbs who lost most by the collapse of Yugoslavia? Only a turkey votes for Christmas.
Hey Danish man (are you really Danish, incidentally ?) -judging by the way things go in Europe, soon you will see Muslims becoming majority in your home country of Denmark...and then, they might start carving their own piece of land, merely because they have become a majority :-) So you will have a perfect chance to prove your words by helping to split beatiful Denmark into pieces to accomodate Muslim demands..."legitimate grievances of opressed minrities", on the Euro-speak. So, do you think many of Danish will happily give their land away, as you suggest Serbs should ?
Have Malësia, Ulqin (Ulcinj), and other Albanian inhabited areas of Montenegro, along with Preshevë valley, Medvegjë and Bujanoc, and the big chunk of Macedonia go to Kosova/o. Give Serbia the northern part (though I am not sure about Pejë and Deçan - most of the people living in both places are predominantly Albanian ... not sure how that would work out …), RS, and if possible, Krajina. Yank part of Vojvodina and give it to the Magyars and voila ... we can finally leave this territory non-sense behind and stop being the laughing stock of Europe.
bganon, all I can say is that you were obviously sleeping (or still very young) throughout the 90s and missed the point that negotiations do not really work with the Western dictators. They prefer to do what they want and negotiations are not an option.
Nothing has really changed so the choice is to be subservient and you'll have a job or to resist and defend your freedom. Sure, resisting was more difficult in the 90s but now with the dictatorship crumbling we simply need to stand firm as time is on our side.
I can only speak for myself, but I'm not really into slavery.
Bganon,
I do agree with a lot of what you say. I’m sorry if you thought that I was suggesting anything towards you personally. I was objecting to your position and its’ implications.
I do not agree with your attempt to create a casual link between the possibility of Serbs south Mitrovica having 2nd 3rd class citizenship and their desire leave or not to remain inside the new state.
I do not exclude the fact that you have valid reasons to prejudge the new state but too many of your variables are up in the air. All in all your link does not stand to scrutiny
1. you believe that this scenario will happen in all likelihood.
2. this condition would be prevalent and unchanged.
3. under the new sovereignty kosova will remain backward and poor, so resentful and with little prospect for Serbs.
4. current constitutional guaranties are not to be trusted.
5. current European stewardships and oversight are not good enough.
6. cooperation will between two people will be on a minimum
7. sociological contacts nonexistent
and we can go on for much longer
If you are on the other hand trying to suggest that your grievances are perceived ones, I am sure that those ones can be addressed. Perceived grievances are not convincing augments to preempt partition. It will be like trying to undo hundreds years of history. After all Kosova has been always shared by Serb and Albanian.
As for you other point of “But hey we could easily turn this argument round and I could insist that Kosovo should remain in Serbia and Albanians be treated with full rights - and that would be genuine”, I do hope that we have moved on from discussing that one.
Jan from Denmark. It's funny how you avoided answering that particular question.
Will you stand firm behind Muslims taking a piece of Denmark and making it their own country when they become a majority there?
According to your moral code you should be very vocal in approving this. Please do answer that question.
Dashnori, you write "Mike,that is not doable for one reason: geography. RS is in one area. You cannot have 25 RS's in a small country like Kosova."
I agree it does present a problem. Were all Serbs and cultural landmarks on one area contiguous to Serbia, I'd say cut the line right there and recognize the rest right away. Case closed.
Maybe Matthew's option isn't so bad after all - redrawing boundaries along ethnic lines, but while I completely agree with his proposal of including Pec and Decani in either Serbia or Montenegro, Louie raises the equally valid point of there being 99% Albanians there! Kind of hard to uproot unless some adequate compensation is made - Presevo maybe? Either that or just take the sliver where the monasteries are or something.
Then there's always Gracanica, which is inconveniently in the middle of everything. Suddenly it just get all the more messy.
Rather than the "dozens of RS" models as Dashnori infers, I'd prefer one Serbian government that speaks on behalf of all provinces and enclaves, most likely based in Mitrovica. Let's be honest, all enclaves in central and southern Kosovo MUST cooperate with the EU to some degree. The only other option is for all the Serb families to pack up and leave, and let me tell you that BG doesn't want them.
Therefore: one Kosovo, two seats of power (Pristina, Mitrovica). The EU High Commissioner has executive authority, while Thaci and Ivanovic have authority in their own jurisdiction.
Right now, it's as plain as day the two sides will NOT cooperate. Even with the most moderate Serb and Albanian leaders in power, the current differences are insurmountable. I'm calling for each side to manage their own affairs for the time being and think of possible reintegration in a generation or two.
The only other doable option is Matthew's suggestion.
Partition of Kosova open even more the pandora box. Serbs with Serbs, Croats with Croats , Macedonia just a small little nation with a new name... montenegro a small little nation like luxemburg,,, i mean really where we are going with partition? Albania and Serbia will benefit of it so will Croatia,, but Macedonia, Montenegro and Bosnia will be the big losers.. I dont think partition it will happen based on this.. If it does all balkan map will be redrawen.
@Matthew - the reason that I haven't mentioned RS is that is almost an unknown entity to me. I wouldn't know where to find it on a map. Similar with a lot of the other local geographical references thrown up here (Malësia, Ulqin/Ulcinj, Preshevë, Medvegjë, Bujanoc, Pejë, Deçan, ...). They might be familiar to you, but for me they fall into the "There Be Dragons Here" category.
---"I personally like the idea of giving Pec and Decani to my homeland, Montenegro in exchange for Bar to the Albanians and parts of the north to the Serbians."
It will never happen: one, this is much worst from a precedent perspective, it involves REALLY changing the borders and EU hates that idea. Overall, Albanians don't care about empty land provided the people are inside the right state and land is made up somewhere else, but EU has settled this: Independence for Kosova, fast EU and billions in investments for Serbia and hope that people get along once they are rich.
Even if it was allowed, all sides would be haggling over every single house and break off the agreement. Wasn't Bar known as Tivar? Many Albanians died defending Plava, Ulqin, Gucia, Podgorica and half of Malesia. Oh well.
You share more than just the clan system, vendeta and besa with the Albanians (and especially Malesori and Kosovars)
It only takes a few minutes to look up those regions and familiarize yourself with them. Pec and Decani (as you seem to know since you call them by their Albanian names) are in Kosovo, they border with Serbia and Montenegro. I seem to recall that Bar was called Anti-Vari in the old days, although I could be wrong on that.
As far as RS and Krajina goes, look up Ustashe and WWII and you’ll see why Serbs there fought so incredibly hard not to suffer Genocide again. It was a 1000% worse than anything that happened in the 90’s. My wife’s family is from that region, and I can tell you her grandfather and his generation suffered incredibly and vowed “never again”.
You should have at least a basic understanding of the history and background on the region if you’re going to comment intelligently on the situation.
While Pec is nearly all Albanian currently, in any partition plan, the previous un-cleansed population must be taken into account. Serbs did have a significant population there before the KLA had their fun. This type of total cleansing should not be reward, regardless of what side committed those acts.
I would even go so far as to say we should take the ethnic cleansing and genocide committed during WWII into account. Serbs used to be the single largest ethnicity in Bosnia before the Ustashe’s policy of “Kill one third, Convert one third, Cleanse one Third”.
Anything short of a complete re-drawing of the maps in the Balkans will result in another war sometime in the future.
Do we all want to see the great EU experiment end the same way “Brotherhood and Unity” did? Do we really want to be responsible for something like that?
Again, I say, partitioning the Balkans along ethnic lines benefits BOTH Serbs and Albanians. Why don’t we stop haggling over the crumbs the “Great Powers” are tossing us and start to work together to come up with a real plan for peace and stability based upon mutually agreed upon conditions?
I suspect the Western Powers want the Balkans stable enough for business, but not stable enough to defend her own interests in a united EU.
Think Long Term and stop trying to get revenge on each other.
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