Violence brings end to Sarajevo gay fest

roberto if you had a consistent position instead of 'refusing to believe' this or that I don't think people would target you. I certainly would defend you, whats more I will continue to defend your right to an opinion and rest assured if anybody here attacks you in an unacceptible way I will criticise that. However, I also have the right to an opinion and the right to not be dismissed as some kind of radical, when clearly I am not. Just because I believe that direct negotiations should be held between Kosovo Albanians and Serbs on future status, it makes me some kind of secret supporter of Greater Serbia. Its absolute rubbish.

However much you want to be believe that the evil in Bosnia was visited from Belgrade the fact is that if the Bosnians didn't want to fight there would have been no war. Nobody pushed the Bosnian Serbs into doing what they did, nor the Bosnian Croats for that matter. Sure they had backing, but this rather patethic attempt to somehow blame everything on outside forces is about as immature as the arguments used by the Serb radicals, who also argue that outside forces are always responsible. Never once do these people look in the mirror at their own responsibility, its always somebody elses fault. I'd say that people with that kind of psychological profile have a serious problem.

And why are we even talking about this? You are also taking part in this 'all sides' nonsense. Instead of unreservedly criticising this action by good ol' sarajevans, you qualify your criticism with reference to the past and quite obviously implying Serbia. Why behave like the people you criticise?

Of course we are all only human, but if when it comes down to it if you have a similar way of thinking of those you criticise, 'refusing to believe' 'good guy, bad guy' then how can you possibly gve advice on peace and human rights?

However, our reporter in Sarajevo says, it is clear that unison chanting heard during the unrest was not the work of the Wahhabis.
--
Somehow I suspect it was Nikolic and Kostunica causing this unrest with the support of a few football hooligan from the last protest.

It ceases to amaze me how the blame always seems to be directed at some stereotype rather than just blaming "violent demonstrators". Why does it matter if they like to watch football or not? They are simply homophobic protesters and they are all over this world.

But if you insist on blaming someone, why not try the pope with great influence in this world and anti-gay stance?

In Toronto even Gay soldiers march openly IN UNIFORM during pride week. Often many politicians attend to lend support to the gay movement. People must think that we are a very open society but the truth is that there are plenty of biggots; its just that they face arrest and prosecution should they harrass the gay activists. I am positive that stiff fines, and heavy punishments against hooligans would make these events safer in Serbia and Bosnia

There are over 150,000 Serbs who are gone from Sarajevo. It is now almost totally Muslim - like 95%.

Izetbegovic was a radical who chose war over peace. The Muslims and the Croats convened secretly and voted for independence behind the backs of the Serbs.

The first killed by ethnic violence were Sarajevo Serbs sprayed with gunfire by the Muslim Green Berets.

Izetbegovic released ex-cons to lead the army and paramilitary - including rapists, gang leaders and murders - in 1992.

The Serbs list scores of concentration camps and illegal prisons operating in Sarajevo in 1992.

The Sarajevo militants also beheaded Sarajevo Serbs and threw their bodies into the Kazani gorge.

You ever do research on Kazani and the murders there Robert?

Ever read about how the Sarajevo police burst into Serbian homes and killed them while they were eating lunch? Look up "The Last Lunch of the Ristovics" and read how the policy was to destroy Serbs and scare them into leaving. Those types of murders were specifically aimed at getting the Serbs to leave.

Sarajevo was a divided city with the frontlines near the Holiday Inn and the Serbian side was more deprived of fuel and food. The Muslim side had heavy vehicular traffic, it also supported a large army which became better equipped despite the "seige".

Foreign officials, media and the UN were coming, going and staying in Sarajevo throughout the war. They got their meals, their chauffeured rides around town, their plane rides in and out.

Bosnian politicians were traveling around the world and back to Sarajevo the whole time as well.

And you speak of prejudice against Albanians yet say nothing of the 200,000 Serbs and Roma they keep from their homes. Many of those people have remained homeless and in collective centers for almost a decade.

Yet when Albanians TEMPORARILY leave their homes AFTER NATO started bombing and the KLA (admitted at the Hague) ordered them to leave, the media and people like you scream and scream about it.

The homosexual community, in Sarajevo ,as elsewhere, thrives on provocations. They don't mind at all being bashed in a bit, to get the publicity they crave.
For the rest of us, their exibitionism is out of order as much as it is the pornography when publicly displayed. Certain things should be kept private.
'Homos' need to be taught to be discrete, their penchant to show off will always bring them antagonisms, whatever religion or political system.

Just a reminder from the past. Bosnian peace was signed, sealed but never delivered as the US and Bosnian Muslims thought they could have it their way. How wrong they where!

Carrington-Cutileiro Peace Plan.

On March 18, 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats.

On March, 28 1992, however, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any type of division of Bosnia, after meeting with then US ambassador to Yugoslavia, Warren Zimmermann, in Sarajevo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_plans_offered_before_and_during_the_Bosnian_War#Carrington-Cutileiro

I think we are all know who caused the war in BiH.

we have to battle for human rights wherever we are, and against hate and intolerance.
(roberto, 26 September 2008 16:39)


Absolutely. So please look into a mirror and fight your biggest and most important battle first. Others will be easier. ;)

Well I don't know why some of these statements have been kept here by the usually editorial team. I have made far less offensive statements that have been edited.

Serb patriarch shows the primitive religious fundanmentalist view. Instead of reading the bible, which outlines how violence upon fellow man is a sin, some believe its perfectly normal that angry and frustrated minds can break the law and God's word, all in the name of supposed religion, or should I say, ultra conservative conformism.

Peter I think it is unacceptable to say that anybody wants to be beaten up by a group of thugs. Who on earth taught you such rubbish?

roberto you have an uncanny habit of wanting to discuss other people's issues and sidestepping your own. If you can try for a minute to stop peering over your wall to look at other people's gardens (which in many cases may indeed be a mess) and take the take to look at your own contradictory position it may help you grow.

Personally I'm still waiting to hear how my position on Kosovo means I'm an extremist as you stated. Was that a democratic comment or one with regard for human rights? Or perhaps it was a one sided comment supporting the human rights of those you consider victims? Human rights are universal and not selective.

For once, ZK UK is right :)

The problem is not that the attackers are football fans, the problem is that they feel a need to dress up in uniform. And by uniform I mean club T-shirts, scarfs etc. Same goes for people whose uniforms are leather jackets and shaved heads.

This need for an uniform, this need to find support in being part of a group, is typical for people with a weak mind, people that are afraid and unable to make decisions for themselves. In other words: STUPID PEOPLE.

Hopefully those people will get a personal experience of Darwinism.

Roberto&Bgnon

Since you insist in bringing a point which, BTW, has nothing to do with the Gay Parade in Sarajevo, I will budge in to throw my two bits of opinion.
Bosnian Muslims have themselves to blame for the war in Bosnia. Declaring their independence from Yugoslavia without any regard for the wishes of the Serbs was the determining factor for what happened afterwards.
Yugoslavia had inside itself the whole Grand Bosnia (Grand Croacia,Grand Serbia etc). What was the Muslim complaint? Who instigate them to launch themselves into an adventure everybody knew it was going to end up in bloodshed?
It was obvious the Serbs were going to react violently to their separation from Yugoslavia having in mind what happened to them in Bosnia during the WWII.
The moment the fighting starts in the Balkans, its first victim is -the Rules of Marquess of Queensbury.
That is how it has always been and that is how it will always be. It is little relevant to count how many throats have been cut and by whom, when the slaughter starts.
I would advise Roberto instead to discover who planned the Muslim separatism and why.
Your crying to be the victims of Serb war crimes, has been heard,the Serbs might have done whatever you claim, but the responsability for starting the Bosnian war is certainly not Serb. There is a lesson here for the future.
As George Santayana postulated - "those who ignore the past are condemned to repeat it"

Peter not believing that people like to be beaten up is not political correctness, it is common sense.

As for your views on some homosexuals liking attention or being, shall we say, rather theatrical in their behaviour, that is the type of conclusion which you can have through experience, as it is true in my opinion.

That does not give anybody a license to break the law or to beat anybody up. I'll tell you something else, if anybody tries to beat up unarmed, harmless people excercising their right to protest whilst I'm around they will have me to deal with and I'm not the only one.

We are not nearly so backward in giving those that deserve it a taste of their own medicine.

There is nothing worse than cowards picking on an easy target.

It is really sad and pathetic that these nasty hooligans -- whoever they are -- are successful with their violence and intimidation. and from what i have read, they are not alone or isolated (this is seldom the case) but have rec'd some tacit backing from certain media outlets (in sarajevo), for example. hmm... hate speech and media outlets...

i still refuse to believe that this kind of attitude is representative of the people of sarajevo; it is not something i have seen or heard or felt, but of course it doesn't mean that it does not exist.

my comments about some of the criticism against sarajevo (and i have heard it before): sarajevo was attacked and bloodied for years and we all know who was responsible. nothing has been done to show regret or to help: it is always: bad things were done by all sides. and that is a way to keep the historical record perverted. it is not the Truth, we know who was responsible for these crimes.

and yes, now sarajevo is not quite the same as it once was, and there are other influences that have come in, and many there are not happy about it.

anyway, we have to battle for human rights wherever we are, and against hate and intolerance. frankly, i am often disappointed by "moderate" posters here that do not speak out against racism and attacks, written or otherwise, esp.ly against albanians. and if i push my ideas in a strong way, well, it is not always so easy being in the "minority" here, often attacked, and postings so often "lost"...

we need to be able to have some dialogue, i have tried to say so many times, and consistently...

thank you.

robertoruss
frisco/sarajevo
robertoruss@yahoo.com

quite frankly marches like this should be banned, although for the sake of the PC brigade violence is not the answer these people and parades should be made illegal.

As western decadence further infiltrates patriarchal and religious societies (which Serbia should remain), it is understandable that some insist on taking justice into their own hands as they see these kinds of public sanctioned perversions an affront to the integrity and health of their nation.

It's unfortunate that B92 only posts pro-gay statements to skew the reality on the issue, and will not post anything which is anti-gay. For this poster, the gay lifestlyle ranks up there with pedophilia, and neither should flaunt their deviant lifestyle in public. My second comment had to do with the liberal-bleeding-heart tendency to support these parades despite their anti-family, anti-society, anti-God, anti-tradition, anti-culture, anti-common sense nature.

Which side are you on B92? Pro-Serb, God and country?, or pro-flavour of the month, pro-decadence, and pro-anarchist?

Clarion Call: LETS PRESERVE THE SERB FATHERLAND !!!

Lets end these useless debates.

roberto

You seem to think that gay parades are not susceptible to attacks by certain ethnic groups or in certain countries. This happens in most countries in the world where such a concept has not quite been accepted by society as it has in Western Europe, North America and such. There is no need to justify the behavior on the Bosniak citizens who did this, especially since they are Islamic and prone to it when it comes to something the Quran forbids and denounces.

"'Homos' need to be taught to be discrete, their penchant to show off will always bring them antagonisms, whatever religion or political system."

so here is my question to all of you "moderates" of the so-called "serb camp" -- or anyone else out there, for that matter. is that the kind of language you like, accept, think is a "normal" part of the dialogue.

it is an alice-in-wonderland, upside down and inside out world, when fighting for human rights and democracy is "extremist" and offensive, and somehow "sick"??; and these kinds of words are seen as normal and fine...

our wonderful and progressive dialogue...

maybe we really have no area in common, after all.

roberto
sarajevo/frisco

"Peter I think it is unacceptable to say that anybody wants to be beaten up by a group of thugs. Who on earth taught you such rubbish?"

Well, nobody.
I learnt this 'rubbish' all by myself observing life as it is ,instead of filtering my sight through some rosy glasses.
If I wanted to be a preacher of the life how-it-should-be, I would be only writing about the passages from the Bible (or Quran).
I must admit I hate the flowery politically correct talk which stifles any intelligent conversation.
Sorry.

"Peter not believing that people like to be beaten up is not political correctness, it is common sense."
Bganon,
I wish I could give you my complete answer without interference from the B92 Censor,so, I'll be as brief as possible.
The common sense, you talk about, is really the "non-sense" in the real World we live in.
It's been a common practice in our 'visual TV'- culture,that- staged events produce the effect of "a picture worth thousand words" and a relativelly small,well organised group of activists can easily arrange that.
This goes on the worldwide scale and exemples are abundant-in fact, flying daily into our faces.
Of course, if I mention only a few of them, I would be cut dead by the B92.
You seem to be oblivious to the most common fact that we are litterally choking in this world of hypocrisy of ours.
I will only bring the exemple of the B92 -'coute que coute'- what the French would say.
Here is an enterprise which set out to be a beacon of Democracy and the Free Speech after the darkness of communism. What was its method for promoting these values? Well, to introduce a new conformism, new tabues- to stifle an opinion which is "opposed"to the Democracy and the Free Speech.
It doesn't matter if one meets all their requirements of polite language.(the language has already been distorted just as Orwell predicted: what is indecent is simply what doesn't agree with their ideology).
Just one concrete exemple.
It is impossible for me to mention any thing about the abominable behaviour of the U.S.A., Israel or the unbecoming postures of the Anglo-American ambassadors in Serbia, without being cut off, or re-edited out of its meaning.
Another derrivative of our Culture of Lies, is the "ex-cathedra" talk you all practice using your shining weapons of Human Rights etc. One can't escape the feeling of being in presence of a self-edifying moralism bent on anihilating the Satan in his oponent. All discussions are reduced, de facto, to being on the side of "Goodness" against the "Badness". Always preaching to somebody who can't distinguish right from wrong, to the great delight of some imaginary moral majority which supposedly,listens and applauds.
It doesn't matter how you look at it- it reeks moral exibitionism in its pure form.

Was censored again by B92 in answering bganon's comment that the Judeo-Christian law has always condemned homosexuality (with capital punishment in the old testament era in fact, and rejection in the new testament).

Too bad the editors may be atheists who deny a large part of their Serbian Christian heritage.

One cannot even respectfully qoute the bible! Perhaps they think it is hate speech.

Peter nothing you wrote excuses your opinion that gays want to be beaten up.

Say what you mean properly and clearly if you think that a group of people are trying to attract attention to their cause (in this case gays) and that they want an incident to draw attention to it then state that. Don't beat around the Bush or deliberately try to make your message sound anti-politically correct as if to smite any politically correct people that may be reading. Who cares what other people think anyway?

I don't care if this world is ruled by hyprocricy. I won't start behaving like a hyprocrite because other people do.

I'm glad you mentioned Orwell as he is a great figure, both as a writer and his politics. However, I'm certain that he would condemn your opinion on the right of homosexuals to protest.

Serbian patriarch I don't remember any passage in the bible that says its ok to attack people.

Personally i think you should repent for your views because its contrary to Gods word - despite what senior members of the clergy say.

"Serbian patriarch I don't remember any passage in the bible that says its ok to attack people.

Personally i think you should repent for your views because its contrary to Gods word - despite what senior members of the clergy say.
(bganon, 28 September 2008 23:27)"

Senior Clergy? Who are they?

Read the Old Testament (Leviticus) and you will see that Moses in the Law wrote that Capital punishment was to be administered for Homosexuality.

In Serbia we have never harassed Homos privately but have always rejected public displays. There are some elements within society that are frustrated that our governments are becoming too liberal, and so take justice into their own hands (a few beatings); justice which is much more lenient than what the bible would have administered.

BTW, parents often spank their kids and it is not considered child abuse or attacking people. Liberals feel that it is.

Bgamon,
I frankly don't understand what are you trying to say.
If you read all my postings more carefully, you'll realize I wasn't "beating around the bush" al all .You may also notice that it is not in my habit to avoid talking straight on any subject on which I think I have some knowledge (as a matter of fact I often get into trouble for doing just that).
As suspected, this conversation of ours is getting silly because we are obviously of very different
characters, culture and formation. Being so, unless you produce some quotation of mine('corpus delicti'), for me to interpret it for you, I see no use in continuing this in form of a squabble.

It is really sad and pathetic that these nasty hooligans -- whoever they are -- are successful with their violence and intimidation. and from what i have read, they are not alone or isolated (this is seldom the case) but have rec'd some tacit backing from certain media outlets (in sarajevo), for example. hmm... hate speech and media outlets...

i still refuse to believe that this kind of attitude is representative of the people of sarajevo; it is not something i have seen or heard or felt, but of course it doesn't mean that it does not exist.

my comments about some of the criticism against sarajevo (and i have heard it before): sarajevo was attacked and bloodied for years and we all know who was responsible. nothing has been done to show regret or to help: it is always: bad things were done by all sides. and that is a way to keep the historical record perverted. it is not the Truth, we know who was responsible for these crimes.

and yes, now sarajevo is not quite the same as it once was, and there are other influences that have come in, and many there are not happy about it.

anyway, we have to battle for human rights wherever we are, and against hate and intolerance. frankly, i am often disappointed by "moderate" posters here that do not speak out against racism and attacks, written or otherwise, esp.ly against albanians. and if i push my ideas in a strong way, well, it is not always so easy being in the "minority" here, often attacked, and postings so often "lost"...

we need to be able to have some dialogue, i have tried to say so many times, and consistently...

thank you.

robertoruss
frisco/sarajevo
robertoruss@yahoo.com

The homosexual community, in Sarajevo ,as elsewhere, thrives on provocations. They don't mind at all being bashed in a bit, to get the publicity they crave.
For the rest of us, their exibitionism is out of order as much as it is the pornography when publicly displayed. Certain things should be kept private.
'Homos' need to be taught to be discrete, their penchant to show off will always bring them antagonisms, whatever religion or political system.

roberto if you had a consistent position instead of 'refusing to believe' this or that I don't think people would target you. I certainly would defend you, whats more I will continue to defend your right to an opinion and rest assured if anybody here attacks you in an unacceptible way I will criticise that. However, I also have the right to an opinion and the right to not be dismissed as some kind of radical, when clearly I am not. Just because I believe that direct negotiations should be held between Kosovo Albanians and Serbs on future status, it makes me some kind of secret supporter of Greater Serbia. Its absolute rubbish.

However much you want to be believe that the evil in Bosnia was visited from Belgrade the fact is that if the Bosnians didn't want to fight there would have been no war. Nobody pushed the Bosnian Serbs into doing what they did, nor the Bosnian Croats for that matter. Sure they had backing, but this rather patethic attempt to somehow blame everything on outside forces is about as immature as the arguments used by the Serb radicals, who also argue that outside forces are always responsible. Never once do these people look in the mirror at their own responsibility, its always somebody elses fault. I'd say that people with that kind of psychological profile have a serious problem.

And why are we even talking about this? You are also taking part in this 'all sides' nonsense. Instead of unreservedly criticising this action by good ol' sarajevans, you qualify your criticism with reference to the past and quite obviously implying Serbia. Why behave like the people you criticise?

Of course we are all only human, but if when it comes down to it if you have a similar way of thinking of those you criticise, 'refusing to believe' 'good guy, bad guy' then how can you possibly gve advice on peace and human rights?

quite frankly marches like this should be banned, although for the sake of the PC brigade violence is not the answer these people and parades should be made illegal.

There are over 150,000 Serbs who are gone from Sarajevo. It is now almost totally Muslim - like 95%.

Izetbegovic was a radical who chose war over peace. The Muslims and the Croats convened secretly and voted for independence behind the backs of the Serbs.

The first killed by ethnic violence were Sarajevo Serbs sprayed with gunfire by the Muslim Green Berets.

Izetbegovic released ex-cons to lead the army and paramilitary - including rapists, gang leaders and murders - in 1992.

The Serbs list scores of concentration camps and illegal prisons operating in Sarajevo in 1992.

The Sarajevo militants also beheaded Sarajevo Serbs and threw their bodies into the Kazani gorge.

You ever do research on Kazani and the murders there Robert?

Ever read about how the Sarajevo police burst into Serbian homes and killed them while they were eating lunch? Look up "The Last Lunch of the Ristovics" and read how the policy was to destroy Serbs and scare them into leaving. Those types of murders were specifically aimed at getting the Serbs to leave.

Sarajevo was a divided city with the frontlines near the Holiday Inn and the Serbian side was more deprived of fuel and food. The Muslim side had heavy vehicular traffic, it also supported a large army which became better equipped despite the "seige".

Foreign officials, media and the UN were coming, going and staying in Sarajevo throughout the war. They got their meals, their chauffeured rides around town, their plane rides in and out.

Bosnian politicians were traveling around the world and back to Sarajevo the whole time as well.

And you speak of prejudice against Albanians yet say nothing of the 200,000 Serbs and Roma they keep from their homes. Many of those people have remained homeless and in collective centers for almost a decade.

Yet when Albanians TEMPORARILY leave their homes AFTER NATO started bombing and the KLA (admitted at the Hague) ordered them to leave, the media and people like you scream and scream about it.

"'Homos' need to be taught to be discrete, their penchant to show off will always bring them antagonisms, whatever religion or political system."

so here is my question to all of you "moderates" of the so-called "serb camp" -- or anyone else out there, for that matter. is that the kind of language you like, accept, think is a "normal" part of the dialogue.

it is an alice-in-wonderland, upside down and inside out world, when fighting for human rights and democracy is "extremist" and offensive, and somehow "sick"??; and these kinds of words are seen as normal and fine...

our wonderful and progressive dialogue...

maybe we really have no area in common, after all.

roberto
sarajevo/frisco

As western decadence further infiltrates patriarchal and religious societies (which Serbia should remain), it is understandable that some insist on taking justice into their own hands as they see these kinds of public sanctioned perversions an affront to the integrity and health of their nation.

It's unfortunate that B92 only posts pro-gay statements to skew the reality on the issue, and will not post anything which is anti-gay. For this poster, the gay lifestlyle ranks up there with pedophilia, and neither should flaunt their deviant lifestyle in public. My second comment had to do with the liberal-bleeding-heart tendency to support these parades despite their anti-family, anti-society, anti-God, anti-tradition, anti-culture, anti-common sense nature.

Which side are you on B92? Pro-Serb, God and country?, or pro-flavour of the month, pro-decadence, and pro-anarchist?

Clarion Call: LETS PRESERVE THE SERB FATHERLAND !!!

Lets end these useless debates.

However, our reporter in Sarajevo says, it is clear that unison chanting heard during the unrest was not the work of the Wahhabis.
--
Somehow I suspect it was Nikolic and Kostunica causing this unrest with the support of a few football hooligan from the last protest.

It ceases to amaze me how the blame always seems to be directed at some stereotype rather than just blaming "violent demonstrators". Why does it matter if they like to watch football or not? They are simply homophobic protesters and they are all over this world.

But if you insist on blaming someone, why not try the pope with great influence in this world and anti-gay stance?

For once, ZK UK is right :)

The problem is not that the attackers are football fans, the problem is that they feel a need to dress up in uniform. And by uniform I mean club T-shirts, scarfs etc. Same goes for people whose uniforms are leather jackets and shaved heads.

This need for an uniform, this need to find support in being part of a group, is typical for people with a weak mind, people that are afraid and unable to make decisions for themselves. In other words: STUPID PEOPLE.

Hopefully those people will get a personal experience of Darwinism.

In Toronto even Gay soldiers march openly IN UNIFORM during pride week. Often many politicians attend to lend support to the gay movement. People must think that we are a very open society but the truth is that there are plenty of biggots; its just that they face arrest and prosecution should they harrass the gay activists. I am positive that stiff fines, and heavy punishments against hooligans would make these events safer in Serbia and Bosnia

Just a reminder from the past. Bosnian peace was signed, sealed but never delivered as the US and Bosnian Muslims thought they could have it their way. How wrong they where!

Carrington-Cutileiro Peace Plan.

On March 18, 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats.

On March, 28 1992, however, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any type of division of Bosnia, after meeting with then US ambassador to Yugoslavia, Warren Zimmermann, in Sarajevo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_plans_offered_before_and_during_the_Bosnian_War#Carrington-Cutileiro

I think we are all know who caused the war in BiH.

Roberto&Bgnon

Since you insist in bringing a point which, BTW, has nothing to do with the Gay Parade in Sarajevo, I will budge in to throw my two bits of opinion.
Bosnian Muslims have themselves to blame for the war in Bosnia. Declaring their independence from Yugoslavia without any regard for the wishes of the Serbs was the determining factor for what happened afterwards.
Yugoslavia had inside itself the whole Grand Bosnia (Grand Croacia,Grand Serbia etc). What was the Muslim complaint? Who instigate them to launch themselves into an adventure everybody knew it was going to end up in bloodshed?
It was obvious the Serbs were going to react violently to their separation from Yugoslavia having in mind what happened to them in Bosnia during the WWII.
The moment the fighting starts in the Balkans, its first victim is -the Rules of Marquess of Queensbury.
That is how it has always been and that is how it will always be. It is little relevant to count how many throats have been cut and by whom, when the slaughter starts.
I would advise Roberto instead to discover who planned the Muslim separatism and why.
Your crying to be the victims of Serb war crimes, has been heard,the Serbs might have done whatever you claim, but the responsability for starting the Bosnian war is certainly not Serb. There is a lesson here for the future.
As George Santayana postulated - "those who ignore the past are condemned to repeat it"

we have to battle for human rights wherever we are, and against hate and intolerance.
(roberto, 26 September 2008 16:39)


Absolutely. So please look into a mirror and fight your biggest and most important battle first. Others will be easier. ;)

roberto

You seem to think that gay parades are not susceptible to attacks by certain ethnic groups or in certain countries. This happens in most countries in the world where such a concept has not quite been accepted by society as it has in Western Europe, North America and such. There is no need to justify the behavior on the Bosniak citizens who did this, especially since they are Islamic and prone to it when it comes to something the Quran forbids and denounces.

Well I don't know why some of these statements have been kept here by the usually editorial team. I have made far less offensive statements that have been edited.

Serb patriarch shows the primitive religious fundanmentalist view. Instead of reading the bible, which outlines how violence upon fellow man is a sin, some believe its perfectly normal that angry and frustrated minds can break the law and God's word, all in the name of supposed religion, or should I say, ultra conservative conformism.

Peter I think it is unacceptable to say that anybody wants to be beaten up by a group of thugs. Who on earth taught you such rubbish?

roberto you have an uncanny habit of wanting to discuss other people's issues and sidestepping your own. If you can try for a minute to stop peering over your wall to look at other people's gardens (which in many cases may indeed be a mess) and take the take to look at your own contradictory position it may help you grow.

Personally I'm still waiting to hear how my position on Kosovo means I'm an extremist as you stated. Was that a democratic comment or one with regard for human rights? Or perhaps it was a one sided comment supporting the human rights of those you consider victims? Human rights are universal and not selective.

"Peter I think it is unacceptable to say that anybody wants to be beaten up by a group of thugs. Who on earth taught you such rubbish?"

Well, nobody.
I learnt this 'rubbish' all by myself observing life as it is ,instead of filtering my sight through some rosy glasses.
If I wanted to be a preacher of the life how-it-should-be, I would be only writing about the passages from the Bible (or Quran).
I must admit I hate the flowery politically correct talk which stifles any intelligent conversation.
Sorry.

Peter not believing that people like to be beaten up is not political correctness, it is common sense.

As for your views on some homosexuals liking attention or being, shall we say, rather theatrical in their behaviour, that is the type of conclusion which you can have through experience, as it is true in my opinion.

That does not give anybody a license to break the law or to beat anybody up. I'll tell you something else, if anybody tries to beat up unarmed, harmless people excercising their right to protest whilst I'm around they will have me to deal with and I'm not the only one.

We are not nearly so backward in giving those that deserve it a taste of their own medicine.

There is nothing worse than cowards picking on an easy target.

"Peter not believing that people like to be beaten up is not political correctness, it is common sense."
Bganon,
I wish I could give you my complete answer without interference from the B92 Censor,so, I'll be as brief as possible.
The common sense, you talk about, is really the "non-sense" in the real World we live in.
It's been a common practice in our 'visual TV'- culture,that- staged events produce the effect of "a picture worth thousand words" and a relativelly small,well organised group of activists can easily arrange that.
This goes on the worldwide scale and exemples are abundant-in fact, flying daily into our faces.
Of course, if I mention only a few of them, I would be cut dead by the B92.
You seem to be oblivious to the most common fact that we are litterally choking in this world of hypocrisy of ours.
I will only bring the exemple of the B92 -'coute que coute'- what the French would say.
Here is an enterprise which set out to be a beacon of Democracy and the Free Speech after the darkness of communism. What was its method for promoting these values? Well, to introduce a new conformism, new tabues- to stifle an opinion which is "opposed"to the Democracy and the Free Speech.
It doesn't matter if one meets all their requirements of polite language.(the language has already been distorted just as Orwell predicted: what is indecent is simply what doesn't agree with their ideology).
Just one concrete exemple.
It is impossible for me to mention any thing about the abominable behaviour of the U.S.A., Israel or the unbecoming postures of the Anglo-American ambassadors in Serbia, without being cut off, or re-edited out of its meaning.
Another derrivative of our Culture of Lies, is the "ex-cathedra" talk you all practice using your shining weapons of Human Rights etc. One can't escape the feeling of being in presence of a self-edifying moralism bent on anihilating the Satan in his oponent. All discussions are reduced, de facto, to being on the side of "Goodness" against the "Badness". Always preaching to somebody who can't distinguish right from wrong, to the great delight of some imaginary moral majority which supposedly,listens and applauds.
It doesn't matter how you look at it- it reeks moral exibitionism in its pure form.

Was censored again by B92 in answering bganon's comment that the Judeo-Christian law has always condemned homosexuality (with capital punishment in the old testament era in fact, and rejection in the new testament).

Too bad the editors may be atheists who deny a large part of their Serbian Christian heritage.

One cannot even respectfully qoute the bible! Perhaps they think it is hate speech.

Peter nothing you wrote excuses your opinion that gays want to be beaten up.

Say what you mean properly and clearly if you think that a group of people are trying to attract attention to their cause (in this case gays) and that they want an incident to draw attention to it then state that. Don't beat around the Bush or deliberately try to make your message sound anti-politically correct as if to smite any politically correct people that may be reading. Who cares what other people think anyway?

I don't care if this world is ruled by hyprocricy. I won't start behaving like a hyprocrite because other people do.

I'm glad you mentioned Orwell as he is a great figure, both as a writer and his politics. However, I'm certain that he would condemn your opinion on the right of homosexuals to protest.

Serbian patriarch I don't remember any passage in the bible that says its ok to attack people.

Personally i think you should repent for your views because its contrary to Gods word - despite what senior members of the clergy say.

"Serbian patriarch I don't remember any passage in the bible that says its ok to attack people.

Personally i think you should repent for your views because its contrary to Gods word - despite what senior members of the clergy say.
(bganon, 28 September 2008 23:27)"

Senior Clergy? Who are they?

Read the Old Testament (Leviticus) and you will see that Moses in the Law wrote that Capital punishment was to be administered for Homosexuality.

In Serbia we have never harassed Homos privately but have always rejected public displays. There are some elements within society that are frustrated that our governments are becoming too liberal, and so take justice into their own hands (a few beatings); justice which is much more lenient than what the bible would have administered.

BTW, parents often spank their kids and it is not considered child abuse or attacking people. Liberals feel that it is.

Bgamon,
I frankly don't understand what are you trying to say.
If you read all my postings more carefully, you'll realize I wasn't "beating around the bush" al all .You may also notice that it is not in my habit to avoid talking straight on any subject on which I think I have some knowledge (as a matter of fact I often get into trouble for doing just that).
As suspected, this conversation of ours is getting silly because we are obviously of very different
characters, culture and formation. Being so, unless you produce some quotation of mine('corpus delicti'), for me to interpret it for you, I see no use in continuing this in form of a squabble.