UN GA voting outcome uncertain, says Tadić

This is a prime case of where law can be used in a proper way.

Why should the US (or anyone else) deny Serbia access to a legitimate court?

Unquestionably this is Serbia's right to defend it's territory. i appreciate Serbia's efforts.

It is really uncertain but at least Serbia is fighting for its right.

Serbia has to continue to seek justice

There is a little of ill informed or mistaken comment today.

First EU Federalist - newsflash I want to get rid of Kosovo as an issue too and I believe Kosovo Albanians do as well. What we all want (I think) is normalisation, for Kosovo to become a normal, prosperous place where there disputes are kept to a minimum.

Kosovo is not that kind of a place today. You or other Albanians may say that you are happy with independence and want to close the book and say that Serbia should live with reality, but those honest with themselves know this isn't over. Kosovo's uncertain status is harming its fragile economy and will continue to do so unless Serbian and Kosovo leaders come to an agreement.

Additionally every Kosovo Albanian knows that he will never be able to total feel secure unless they have reached a deal with Serbs.

Its not my position or the position of the Serbian government (I think it is the position only of Seselj's radicals now) to send the Serbian army into Kosovo. Forget about that, it is not an argment for anything.

Serbia has a right to choose its own destiny, my personal opinion is that it should try to continue good relations with east and west and benefit from trading with as many countries as possible.

Kosovo-habitant comparing Tadic and Milosevic is a complete joke. Do not insult all the Serb and non-Serb victims with this comparison, although I'm sure you would fit in with members of SRS who believe the same thing.

'Don't you see that Balkans is a black hole in Modern Europe because of Serbia.'

Independence, please, you are talking rubbish. I admit the Serbian position is harming the Kosovo economy (uncertain status, world institutions etc) but Serbia's position is hurting nobody else.

You have to sit down with Serbia. Despite what you think there is a reasonable government in Belgrade and they would agree to official or unofficial talks in an instant.

Marko for the hundredth time I'm saying this in answr to your reply 'would ask you what fruit will a non binding ICJ decision bear?'

The fruit the ICJ decision will bear would be new negotiations, official or unofficial, either with pressure from other states or a decision from Pristina and Belgrade alone to hammer out a final solution to Kosovo - to draw a line under recent history and move forward.

Maybe it won't happen, but what harm will it do seeking the ICJ opinion? Yes continuation of problems connected with a partly recognised Kosovo.

Fine, lets sit down at the table and negotiate before the ICJ judgement and perhaps, just maybe Serbia would withdraw the attempt for an ICJ decision.

All roads ahead for Kosovo lead to new and fair negotiations. Until then Kosovo will be stuck.

"I ask those among you here who still believe that Kosova can somehow return to Serbia to see the fact that even Tadic and his government does not want this. They want to move the issue (which is a political one) to the legal sphere.

This means, Tadic wants to get rid of Kosovo as an issue. So those that believe that Serbia is fighting for its right, reconsider it carefully.

Besides that, it would be plain injustice to force, by military means, Kosovo to return under Serbian rule. This is not Serbias right.

Serbias right is to be in the EU and not a satellite of Russia.
(EUFederalist, 25 September 2008 11:37)"

EUFederalist,

It is people like (people who love the EU technocrat super state) you that make it worth while to keep fighting no matter what the outcome. You are in no position to talk about right this and right that (neither am I and so I am not). Serbia can decide itself to choose between the EU and closer relationships with Russia. Why should Serbia reconsider it carefully? Can you please share your insights if that does not happen? Stop pretending that you are some important person trying to lecture us here with empty statements. Unless you have a law degree do not talk about rights.

As if this would matter!
You repressed us by all violent means for more than twenty years and we prevailed, despite of this we came out as strong as never before. Where Milosevic -the origingal one- failed, these new Milosevic's named Tadic etc. will fail even worse.
We are here, we are alive and we are strong.

Nonsence.Trying to make states vote against their decision.Serbia is like a black sheep in the Balkans.Why dont you mind your business.Don't you see that Balkans is a black hole in Modern Europe because of Serbia.You're trying to change the stance of superpowers of the world.You're looking rediculous, don't you see that.Kosova was part of YU and that country doesnt exist anymore,95% of their people DO NOT want to live with you (even your Brothers did not want to live with you,Montenegro.)plus you killed thousands of albanians, you devastatd our country.KosovA is INDEPENDENT,and you serb leaders forget that you will ever be able to change it.

Viti i Balit:
> Of course its uncertain,no chance.
Do you realise that this statement is nonsense?

And Serbia has no wish to claim title to an place called 'Kosova'. In these uncertain times, indulging in speculation in 'Martian real-estate' is extremely unwise.


Kosovo-habitant:
> You repressed us by all violent means for more than twenty years ...

It was the communist government of Yugoslavia that did the 'oppressing' aided & abetted by albanian communists in Kosovo. And I might add that K-albanian's were not the only ones 'oppressed' during that period.

The government now in power in Serbia is a pro-western product of democracy, so invoking the name of 'Milosevic' in an attempt to convince yourself that Serbia will lose the vote at the GA is largely meaningless, save perhaps to those like you (see above) who seem to need some sort of certainty.


Independece
> Nonsence.Trying to make states vote against their decision.

Of course, US will not change it's mind. But others who have recognised 'pseudo-state' are a different story.

Costa Rica has indicated that it will. Others may very well do so & may not take much to 'tip them over', so every little bit helps - even the fiction of attempting to convince the US - the prime belligerant.

As for the rest of your post, just a few words.

Serbs will not give up on Kosovo.


Marko:
> so I would ask you what fruit will a non binding ICJ decision bear?

Ultimately? Forcing those who do not wish & have no incentive, to negotiate.

And more generally, to clarify international law, thereby strengthening the foundations on which the UN Charter rests.

While this may sound pompous & from my point-of-view, self-serving, is nevertheless true.

Those of you who may wish to tear down the UN in order to replace it with something more 'practical' should reflect on the very 'practicality' of being able to form such an entity as consensus would be all but impossible 'in practice'.


pss:
> instead of saying Serbia will never recognize the independence of Kosovo,

This has already been denied at a diplomatic level by Tadic's government which has categorically stated that it would abide by the ICJ's decision should it be called upon to make one.

What may influence some countries in their vote at the GA however, are the ramifications for stability should the serbs be denied in putting their case before the ICJ in the first place.

> There are far more important issues to consider at this time.
Yes there are.

And hopefully the US will be too busy to fully concentrate on this one.

I ask those among you here who still believe that Kosova can somehow return to Serbia to see the fact that even Tadic and his government does not want this. They want to move the issue (which is a political one) to the legal sphere.

This means, Tadic wants to get rid of Kosovo as an issue. So those that believe that Serbia is fighting for its right, reconsider it carefully.

Besides that, it would be plain injustice to force, by military means, Kosovo to return under Serbian rule. This is not Serbias right.

Serbias right is to be in the EU and not a satellite of Russia.

A non binding decision that only confirms Serbia's rights is far to little, far to late. I realize some of you may disagree with me so I would ask you what fruit will a non binding ICJ decision bear? it may provide political cover for Belgrade politicians who really don't want to do anything but what will it do to restore Serbian borders and improve the lives of loyal Serbs in Kosovo?

As if this would matter!
You repressed us by all violent means for more than twenty years and we prevailed, despite of this we came out as strong as never before kosovo-habitant

If you are so strong as never before, how come that your province didn't make any step forward the last nearly 10 years despite the multi billions euros of foreign donation poored into your province. Who can be blame for this??
As far as am informed you were under protectorate, so had plenty of time to do something!! Reading this kind of senseless comment makes me even more understanding why nobody of your diaspora is willing to return!
Am delighted about the changes this new serbian government is finally trying to bring and credit should be given to them for their efforts.
This UN decision is more than just a decision about the legality of your UDI, it's a warning sign to the destructive US/UK foreign policy and just because of that I really hope that it will pass, then maybe a better world balance will be established.

This means, Tadic wants to get rid of Kosovo as an issue. So those that believe that Serbia is fighting for its right, reconsider it carefully.
(EUFederalist, 25 September 2008 11:37)

Very uneducated guess. If you or anyone for even a split second believe that Mr. Tadic is somehow wanting to get Kosovo issue of his back, you are gravely mistaken. Serbian leadership and Serbian citizens will never let anyone take Kosovo away. Even if it takes decades, centuries for that matter, Serbian people are patient. Time is on our side. There is absolutely nothing you or anyone can do about that. Justice will prevail. Serbias strategy is already working.
What ever happen with Macedonia recognizing Kosovo illegal UDI on 23rd. Of this month? I remember dozens of premature, as usual Albanians comments “thank you Macedonia” on this site. Just as premature as Kosovo independence.

Of course its uncertain,no chance.What(than Serbia not now)did to K-Albanian's Serbia lost the right to retain or fight for Kosova.Absolutly no right whatsoever.

"Serbs will not give up on Kosovo. "

And Albanians will not give on Independence? So what's th point on negotiating? Nice attempt to blame Slobodan when you guys approved of him and 13 years later still have Mladic hidden.

Unquestionably this is Serbia's right to defend it's territory. i appreciate Serbia's efforts.
(David Williams, 25 September 2008 12:09)

So Serbia "fights" for its' territory by asking the opinion of an institution set up and founded by the countries which bombed it in 1999?

The West is the devil...but we'll use their institutions??? What message is Serbia sending the world when your actions are of the 20th century?

All the ex-yugo countries are moving forward by joining NATO, EU, high investments in tourism, while Serbia is STUCK in the past. Is there not an ethnic Serb in B92 that will stand up and say I've had it with Kosovo, I want to hear about how we're going to improve the economy?

Actually,Bganon,I agree with the Tadic-Jeremic iniciative.
As a matter of fact I am elated they have shown that much of guts, as to oppose the explicit warnings of our tutoring foreign ambassadors.
I always thought going into any negotiation like a beaten scabrous dog, will never bring Serbs anything but kicks.
Having said that, I have to add, that, even after the success of the GA vote, I don't expect much progress (unless you consider the insuing breast-beating which will inevitably follow for the domestic political purpose- as such).
To reopen the negotiations over Kosovo(I mean the real ones-without any of those century-lasting "road maps")would represent a major defeat for the U.S. and their stooges.( God, wouldn't that be a real fiesta). Will that happen?
It is not absolutely impossible after the military and economic fiascos the U.S. has suffered. We live in a World where historical processes evolve much more rapidly than in the past(just a few years back, the U.S. looked a knight with a shining armor,now, to go down begging for military and financial help).
If this opinion of mine,is your definition of a false Serbian patriot- let it be.How many of us are there? No idea, and,believe me-I don't give a damn.

"I am praying every day that this deceitful and hypocritical proposal by serbia fails and fails miserably. and i will do whatever i can do (which is not much) to push for its failure."

Roberto buddy, I got news for you. It looks as if all the praying your doing is rather futile because it looks like Serbia will win. So a bit of advice, stop wasting yours and Allah's time.

"now, i want to add -- twice in the past week 2 different posters from the "serb camp" (thAt is the accepted language on this site) have tried to communicate with me or even supported my positions in fair and decent ways. when i have responded accordingly, the posting were "lost." so what's that all about? my principles are absolutely important and consistent (as best a human being can be) but i do encourage dialogue, even and especially with members of the other side. that is actually one of my main principles"

Roberto, dont give up the day job, because I'll tell you why. In the first section of your statement you pray to Allah that the 'deceitful and hypocritical proposal from Serbia fails and fails miserably' and then you go onto add this other gem, 'i will do whatever i can do (which is not much) to push for its failure.' You say you belive in dialogue and understanding but in 1 fell swoop you insult and ridicule Serbia's principled position. Thats not very diplomatic now is it. God help us if you were in charge at the UN. It doesnt bear thinking about. Imagine Ban Ki Moon mediating say between the Sri Lankan government and the Tamil Tigers and saying before hand that he hoped that the Sri Lankan government proposals failed and failed miserably. The Sri Lankans would be out the door before you say 'oranges'. Your one tracked mind and tunnel vision are clouding your judgement and frankly sir you are making a fool of yourself, contradicting yourself on a regular pattern all way through your statement and previous mumblings from you. You have enlightened us all. Now please stop bothering Allah and the rest of us with your crocodile tears and blatant Serbophobia.

Next please.

If Tadic would have said that Serbia wants to put this in the hands of the ICJ and will honor whatever opinion it renders instead of saying Serbia will never recognize the independence of Kosovo, there probably would have never been a doubt that it would pass.
You can not request to go before a judge and say I am only going to honor your ruling "if" it is in my favor.
I am sure a great many countries are saying why are we wasting our time with this if neither side is going to alter their course once a ruling is made.
There are far more important issues to consider at this time.

Peter while you are judging the efforts of Tadic and Jeremic, whose action much of Serbia supports, let me make a judgement of my own.

The small minority of false (Serb)patriots hoping that Serbia's diplomatic effort fails on Kosovo, are to be pitied.

I´d like to point out, and I think it´s the first time I agree with "Ben", many members of various international organizations ARE INDEED shamelessly getting richt at the expense of the local population, for whom a lot of money is being transferred.

the main problem is, actually, that these corrupt evil doers couldn´t succeed with their dirty business, if there were not members of the ruling "powers" among the K-albanians who are accomplices and also getting richt by helping this to happen every day.

and that´s why I constantly repeat that the K-albanians are still being duped, they fear Serbia, while their real enemy is among their very own poeple.

Serbia does not want to rule the K-albanians, as it was pointed out countless times.

Serbia is fighting peacefully to defend it´s territorial sovereignty, not more and not less.

as soon as the average Albanian has realized this, corruption and organized crime will decrease siginificantly, since these structures are depending on this limbo-situation.

that´s why we see Mr.Thaci and his comrades every few days saying something about a "done deal" and Serbia being "neighbour"...they simply want the situation to stay like it is, in order to consolidate their shadow-society...

Albanians, wake up! too much time has been lost, we all want to enjoy a brighter future, so sit back and think about whether your "leaders" of today will fulfill what they promised you...

"Our intention in not to repeat the aggression or confrontations...."
The damage has been done Tadic with Serbia's policies in the Balkans. Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore. There was was war in Kosova and as a result THERE IS NO WAY BACK TO SERBIA. We have new reality and let's move on towards the EU.

peter,sydney
If you read the B92 article on the 23rd you will see it reported that one of the messages Tadic wanted to get across to the GA was that Serbia will never accept the UDI of Kosovo. Seeing how I doubt that the people of Uganda follow the news in Serbia, I bet that they missed any comments made to contrary. You probably missed that little part of the article while you were focusing on how to put down others comments.
And the US will probably be concentrating on other things because the status of Kosovo is considered resolved as far as the US is concerned.

Peter I see then that we are in agreement and no I don't think you have the view of a false patriot, although yes, I do think there are a few about.

"Asked whether the situation in the Caucasus had an effect on Moscow’s stance regarding Kosovo, Tadić gave a negative answer".
So far it is from Moscow's side in relation with Serbia's Kosovo-problem. Bot indirectly it will have its influence. Russia was under fire from all sides in the speeches of most countries (Ukraine, Baltic states, Poland), which are their neighbours. It is all about Europe and to be on the side of Russia will not be taken very positively. For the sake of Serbia's plea it would be better, if Serbia's government would distance itself much more clear from Russia. In this way Serbia has a credible position. Of course it is dangerous too, because Serbia could loose the only pro-Serbia veto-voter in the Security Council.
That's why the outcome of the vote in the GA is still uncertain.

Peter all though I respectfully disagree, I can assure you that your position is neither pompous or self-serving. My reservation is that leaving Serbia’s sovereignty in the hands of the UN is optimistic. This is not enough
I feel this way because I am convinced that as long as the separatists feel that they have carte blanche and Money coming from Nato, they will not be concerned with negotiations that include compromise. Serbia has not shown itself to be a serious opponent of the United States policy, proof of this is that Munter is still in Belgrade even though there would be very little cost, or damage to Serbia, If the US ambassador was removed until an new US. administration comes to power in January.
I also feel that Serbia should find concrete ways to build leverage before separatists finally agree to negotiate. In addition to this suit, which does not do much of anything, Serbia should have launched direct suits claiming damages against the countries that recognized the UDI. Dropping these suits could be a bargaining chip for Serbia in EU negotiations and it could show that the Serbian policy is not toothless.

**** "If you are so strong as never before, how come that your province didn't make any step forward the last nearly 10 years despite the multi billions euros of foreign donation poored into your province."

Don't mistake money spent on UN peacekeeping with 'investments.' Very little has been invested until this year. Now they are starting. Progress? Many of the burned houses are rebuilt and the economy is growing at over 5% http://www.emportal.co.yu/en/news/serbia/63790.html after being neglected for 100 years. Nothing can be done in years, it takes along time but the work has started. Serbia is way behind Croatia, Slovenia and is being helped by Vojvodina which provides 40% of the GDP. In 5 years Kosova will have the GDP /per person that Serbia has now. Not that bad.

If you are so strong as never before, how come that your province didn't make any step forward the last nearly 10 years despite the multi billions euros of foreign donation poored into your province.

(The Swiss, 25 September 2008 17:58)

Becaouse you stole them- in form oh high salaries. You see dera The Swiss if I bring you 10 Swiss org that would say egsactly the opposit of what you say will you stop abusing and speaking in name of Swiss???????

cees:
Am not especially worried that Serbia's ties with Russia & Russia's recognition of the break-aways in Georgia will harm Serbia's credibility on this issue.

Serbia has already stated that it will not recognise the break-aways. And Saakashvili's attempt to recreate 'Operation Storm' followed by Russia's reaction will only serve to bolster Serbia's case.

And uncertainty in the outcome of the vote is due primarily to the unprincipled opposition of the US & 'brussels'.


Dashnori i Ceces:
> And Albanians will not give on Independence? So what's th point on negotiating?

And the alternative is? History shows us (especially in the balkans) that attempting to bury the issue in this way simply does not work.

The whole point of negotiations is to 'lock the two sides up in a very small room', throw away the key, & then wait.

May take yet more years, may take decades, but is the only way to ultimately resolve the issue without yet more bloodshed sometime down the track.


usaSERB:
> What ever happen with Macedonia recognizing Kosovo illegal UDI on 23rd

Had forgotten about that. Interesting point.

M-albanian deputies over-reaching themselves? Or perhaps worried about Serbia's diplomatic response?


EA:
> Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore.
Precisely.


marko:
> My reservation is that leaving Serbia’s sovereignty in the hands of the UN is optimistic. This is not enough

But it is a start, & Serbia needs to start somewhere.

Regarding Mr Munter, personally agree with you that he should be sent packing, but will just be replaced with a clone if embassy is not closed & closing US embassy in Belgrade is problematical with respect to how it is perceived by the rest of the world.

With regard to other specific suits, would counsel 'baby step's, & those 'one at a time'. A successful outcome before the ICJ (should the case reach it) would certainly help in that regard.

And plenty of time to worry about the EU.

Yes, Serbia does need 'leverage', but let's build the 'lever' first.


pss:
you said:
> If you read the B92 article on the 23rd you will see it reported that one of the messages Tadic wanted to get across to the GA was that Serbia will never accept the UDI of Kosovo.

And if you actually read the article again, you will find that Tadic actually said:

> that one of his main messages for the General Assembly would be that Serbia would never recognize Kosovo’s illegally declared independence.

Note the words 'illegally declared'.

In it's attempt to bring this matter before the ICJ, Serbia has to, as a matter of procedure, agree to accept the court's verdict should the case reach the ICJ.

And in the unlikely event (my personal opinion) that the ICJ rules against Serbia, then 'pseudo-state's Unilateral Declaration of Independence (UDI) becomes legal under international law.

So Serbia is obliged to accept it.

It is not however obliged to accept an 'illegal' declaration of independence.

And Tadic is perfectly correct when he says this as he did a couple of days ago.

> You probably missed that little part of the article while you were focusing on how to put down others comments.

My primary focus has always been to refute the propaganda presented by the other side.

Do I at times 'put people down' in doing so? Well.. yes. Do I take a certain amount of delight in doing so? Yes again. Am I a trifle pedantic in putting my arguments? Could be. Do I get it wrong sometimes? Certainly. Do I occasionally stray 'over the line'? Ask B92 :)

Such is my nature.

ps: and consider yourself 'put-down' ;)


L*O*G*I*C:
> So Serbia "fights" for its' territory by asking the opinion of an institution set up and founded by the countries which bombed it in 1999?

ICJ was founded by the victors of WWII - these also included Russia China & many others.

ICJ is not 'owned' by the west despite your words, & the judges reflect the 'true' international character of this institution. Here's the list of current members:

http://www.icj-cij.org/court/index.php?p1=1&p2=2&p3=1

As for focusing on Serbia's economic situation by pursuing the EU path exclusively, I personally think that the EU isn't the 'be all & end all' & Serbia would be better served in the long run by staying out of it.

But hey, that's a democracy for you - don't always get what you want - which also applies to the UDI in Kosovo, at least from the perspective of the majority of the population in Serbia.

"UN GA voting outcome uncertain, says Tadić".

This could very well be a usual performance in the Tadic-Jeremic high-drama theatre.
It is to be suspected that the GA resolution is a shoo- in,but it will be presented as "only thanks to the 'superhuman' efforts of our correct 'serbo-european' patriotism.

I am praying every day that this deceitful and hypocritical proposal by serbia fails and fails miserably. and i will do whatever i can do (which is not much) to push for its failure.

but, if it does pass, then we will carry on the battle, and on and on until we have secured freedom and full independence for kosova. and democracy and respect for human rights.

what happens inside serbia i cannot control, and it will have to be someone else's battle, because a super human i ain't.

for all of our frnds and supporters, i say, stay strong, and lobby, lobby, lobby, just like the opposition.

now, i want to add -- twice in the past week 2 different posters from the "serb camp" (thAt is the accepted language on this site) have tried to communicate with me or even supported my positions in fair and decent ways. when i have responded accordingly, the posting were "lost." so what's that all about? my principles are absolutely important and consistent (as best a human being can be) but i do encourage dialogue, even and especially with members of the other side. that is actually one of my main principles. we may disagree, even vigorously, but we can still talk without using cheap shots and hate speech. and we need to model this for others.

so, i just wanted to make clear that i appreciate those tenuous ovetures, from Ataman and bganon, and i hope and trust that my postings won't keep getting lost.

thank you.

roberto
frisco/ sarajevo
robertoruss@yahoo.com

Becaouse you stole them- in form oh high salaries. You see dera The Swiss if I bring you 10 Swiss org that would say egsactly the opposit of what you say will you stop abusing and speaking in name of Swiss???????
(ben, 25 September 2008 19:43)

Hahaha, you made my day with your funny comments....! But, pls, be my guest and provide me the name of all these organizations, would be happy to know them. Needless to say that it will not stop me to give my opinion whether you like or not.
And an interesting article for you, a bit old but so true!!
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/KLA-drugs.html

(The Swiss, 26 September 2008 12:51)

I see you are very coherent and above all impartial in your position ;)))

How the hell did you changed from corruption and economic development in a classic Serbian style labelling as Islamic of the Marxist movement as KLA was initially??? ;))

P.S. for all Islamofobs in this site (many Albanians too) being a Muslim IS NOT A CRIME- OK?????

On 26 September 2008 06:19, peter, sydney wrote:

"Do I at times 'put people down' in doing so? Well.. yes. Do I take a certain amount of delight in doing so? Yes again. Am I a trifle pedantic in putting my arguments? Could be. Do I get it wrong sometimes? Certainly. Do I occasionally stray 'over the line'? Ask B92 :)"

2 points for peter!

Of course its uncertain,no chance.What(than Serbia not now)did to K-Albanian's Serbia lost the right to retain or fight for Kosova.Absolutly no right whatsoever.

Nonsence.Trying to make states vote against their decision.Serbia is like a black sheep in the Balkans.Why dont you mind your business.Don't you see that Balkans is a black hole in Modern Europe because of Serbia.You're trying to change the stance of superpowers of the world.You're looking rediculous, don't you see that.Kosova was part of YU and that country doesnt exist anymore,95% of their people DO NOT want to live with you (even your Brothers did not want to live with you,Montenegro.)plus you killed thousands of albanians, you devastatd our country.KosovA is INDEPENDENT,and you serb leaders forget that you will ever be able to change it.

As if this would matter!
You repressed us by all violent means for more than twenty years and we prevailed, despite of this we came out as strong as never before. Where Milosevic -the origingal one- failed, these new Milosevic's named Tadic etc. will fail even worse.
We are here, we are alive and we are strong.

I ask those among you here who still believe that Kosova can somehow return to Serbia to see the fact that even Tadic and his government does not want this. They want to move the issue (which is a political one) to the legal sphere.

This means, Tadic wants to get rid of Kosovo as an issue. So those that believe that Serbia is fighting for its right, reconsider it carefully.

Besides that, it would be plain injustice to force, by military means, Kosovo to return under Serbian rule. This is not Serbias right.

Serbias right is to be in the EU and not a satellite of Russia.

If Tadic would have said that Serbia wants to put this in the hands of the ICJ and will honor whatever opinion it renders instead of saying Serbia will never recognize the independence of Kosovo, there probably would have never been a doubt that it would pass.
You can not request to go before a judge and say I am only going to honor your ruling "if" it is in my favor.
I am sure a great many countries are saying why are we wasting our time with this if neither side is going to alter their course once a ruling is made.
There are far more important issues to consider at this time.

Unquestionably this is Serbia's right to defend it's territory. i appreciate Serbia's efforts.

This is a prime case of where law can be used in a proper way.

Why should the US (or anyone else) deny Serbia access to a legitimate court?

It is really uncertain but at least Serbia is fighting for its right.

Serbia has to continue to seek justice

"I ask those among you here who still believe that Kosova can somehow return to Serbia to see the fact that even Tadic and his government does not want this. They want to move the issue (which is a political one) to the legal sphere.

This means, Tadic wants to get rid of Kosovo as an issue. So those that believe that Serbia is fighting for its right, reconsider it carefully.

Besides that, it would be plain injustice to force, by military means, Kosovo to return under Serbian rule. This is not Serbias right.

Serbias right is to be in the EU and not a satellite of Russia.
(EUFederalist, 25 September 2008 11:37)"

EUFederalist,

It is people like (people who love the EU technocrat super state) you that make it worth while to keep fighting no matter what the outcome. You are in no position to talk about right this and right that (neither am I and so I am not). Serbia can decide itself to choose between the EU and closer relationships with Russia. Why should Serbia reconsider it carefully? Can you please share your insights if that does not happen? Stop pretending that you are some important person trying to lecture us here with empty statements. Unless you have a law degree do not talk about rights.

"Serbs will not give up on Kosovo. "

And Albanians will not give on Independence? So what's th point on negotiating? Nice attempt to blame Slobodan when you guys approved of him and 13 years later still have Mladic hidden.

There is a little of ill informed or mistaken comment today.

First EU Federalist - newsflash I want to get rid of Kosovo as an issue too and I believe Kosovo Albanians do as well. What we all want (I think) is normalisation, for Kosovo to become a normal, prosperous place where there disputes are kept to a minimum.

Kosovo is not that kind of a place today. You or other Albanians may say that you are happy with independence and want to close the book and say that Serbia should live with reality, but those honest with themselves know this isn't over. Kosovo's uncertain status is harming its fragile economy and will continue to do so unless Serbian and Kosovo leaders come to an agreement.

Additionally every Kosovo Albanian knows that he will never be able to total feel secure unless they have reached a deal with Serbs.

Its not my position or the position of the Serbian government (I think it is the position only of Seselj's radicals now) to send the Serbian army into Kosovo. Forget about that, it is not an argment for anything.

Serbia has a right to choose its own destiny, my personal opinion is that it should try to continue good relations with east and west and benefit from trading with as many countries as possible.

Kosovo-habitant comparing Tadic and Milosevic is a complete joke. Do not insult all the Serb and non-Serb victims with this comparison, although I'm sure you would fit in with members of SRS who believe the same thing.

'Don't you see that Balkans is a black hole in Modern Europe because of Serbia.'

Independence, please, you are talking rubbish. I admit the Serbian position is harming the Kosovo economy (uncertain status, world institutions etc) but Serbia's position is hurting nobody else.

You have to sit down with Serbia. Despite what you think there is a reasonable government in Belgrade and they would agree to official or unofficial talks in an instant.

Marko for the hundredth time I'm saying this in answr to your reply 'would ask you what fruit will a non binding ICJ decision bear?'

The fruit the ICJ decision will bear would be new negotiations, official or unofficial, either with pressure from other states or a decision from Pristina and Belgrade alone to hammer out a final solution to Kosovo - to draw a line under recent history and move forward.

Maybe it won't happen, but what harm will it do seeking the ICJ opinion? Yes continuation of problems connected with a partly recognised Kosovo.

Fine, lets sit down at the table and negotiate before the ICJ judgement and perhaps, just maybe Serbia would withdraw the attempt for an ICJ decision.

All roads ahead for Kosovo lead to new and fair negotiations. Until then Kosovo will be stuck.

"Asked whether the situation in the Caucasus had an effect on Moscow’s stance regarding Kosovo, Tadić gave a negative answer".
So far it is from Moscow's side in relation with Serbia's Kosovo-problem. Bot indirectly it will have its influence. Russia was under fire from all sides in the speeches of most countries (Ukraine, Baltic states, Poland), which are their neighbours. It is all about Europe and to be on the side of Russia will not be taken very positively. For the sake of Serbia's plea it would be better, if Serbia's government would distance itself much more clear from Russia. In this way Serbia has a credible position. Of course it is dangerous too, because Serbia could loose the only pro-Serbia veto-voter in the Security Council.
That's why the outcome of the vote in the GA is still uncertain.

As if this would matter!
You repressed us by all violent means for more than twenty years and we prevailed, despite of this we came out as strong as never before kosovo-habitant

If you are so strong as never before, how come that your province didn't make any step forward the last nearly 10 years despite the multi billions euros of foreign donation poored into your province. Who can be blame for this??
As far as am informed you were under protectorate, so had plenty of time to do something!! Reading this kind of senseless comment makes me even more understanding why nobody of your diaspora is willing to return!
Am delighted about the changes this new serbian government is finally trying to bring and credit should be given to them for their efforts.
This UN decision is more than just a decision about the legality of your UDI, it's a warning sign to the destructive US/UK foreign policy and just because of that I really hope that it will pass, then maybe a better world balance will be established.

A non binding decision that only confirms Serbia's rights is far to little, far to late. I realize some of you may disagree with me so I would ask you what fruit will a non binding ICJ decision bear? it may provide political cover for Belgrade politicians who really don't want to do anything but what will it do to restore Serbian borders and improve the lives of loyal Serbs in Kosovo?

This means, Tadic wants to get rid of Kosovo as an issue. So those that believe that Serbia is fighting for its right, reconsider it carefully.
(EUFederalist, 25 September 2008 11:37)

Very uneducated guess. If you or anyone for even a split second believe that Mr. Tadic is somehow wanting to get Kosovo issue of his back, you are gravely mistaken. Serbian leadership and Serbian citizens will never let anyone take Kosovo away. Even if it takes decades, centuries for that matter, Serbian people are patient. Time is on our side. There is absolutely nothing you or anyone can do about that. Justice will prevail. Serbias strategy is already working.
What ever happen with Macedonia recognizing Kosovo illegal UDI on 23rd. Of this month? I remember dozens of premature, as usual Albanians comments “thank you Macedonia” on this site. Just as premature as Kosovo independence.

"Our intention in not to repeat the aggression or confrontations...."
The damage has been done Tadic with Serbia's policies in the Balkans. Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore. There was was war in Kosova and as a result THERE IS NO WAY BACK TO SERBIA. We have new reality and let's move on towards the EU.

**** "If you are so strong as never before, how come that your province didn't make any step forward the last nearly 10 years despite the multi billions euros of foreign donation poored into your province."

Don't mistake money spent on UN peacekeeping with 'investments.' Very little has been invested until this year. Now they are starting. Progress? Many of the burned houses are rebuilt and the economy is growing at over 5% http://www.emportal.co.yu/en/news/serbia/63790.html after being neglected for 100 years. Nothing can be done in years, it takes along time but the work has started. Serbia is way behind Croatia, Slovenia and is being helped by Vojvodina which provides 40% of the GDP. In 5 years Kosova will have the GDP /per person that Serbia has now. Not that bad.

If you are so strong as never before, how come that your province didn't make any step forward the last nearly 10 years despite the multi billions euros of foreign donation poored into your province.

(The Swiss, 25 September 2008 17:58)

Becaouse you stole them- in form oh high salaries. You see dera The Swiss if I bring you 10 Swiss org that would say egsactly the opposit of what you say will you stop abusing and speaking in name of Swiss???????

Unquestionably this is Serbia's right to defend it's territory. i appreciate Serbia's efforts.
(David Williams, 25 September 2008 12:09)

So Serbia "fights" for its' territory by asking the opinion of an institution set up and founded by the countries which bombed it in 1999?

The West is the devil...but we'll use their institutions??? What message is Serbia sending the world when your actions are of the 20th century?

All the ex-yugo countries are moving forward by joining NATO, EU, high investments in tourism, while Serbia is STUCK in the past. Is there not an ethnic Serb in B92 that will stand up and say I've had it with Kosovo, I want to hear about how we're going to improve the economy?

I am praying every day that this deceitful and hypocritical proposal by serbia fails and fails miserably. and i will do whatever i can do (which is not much) to push for its failure.

but, if it does pass, then we will carry on the battle, and on and on until we have secured freedom and full independence for kosova. and democracy and respect for human rights.

what happens inside serbia i cannot control, and it will have to be someone else's battle, because a super human i ain't.

for all of our frnds and supporters, i say, stay strong, and lobby, lobby, lobby, just like the opposition.

now, i want to add -- twice in the past week 2 different posters from the "serb camp" (thAt is the accepted language on this site) have tried to communicate with me or even supported my positions in fair and decent ways. when i have responded accordingly, the posting were "lost." so what's that all about? my principles are absolutely important and consistent (as best a human being can be) but i do encourage dialogue, even and especially with members of the other side. that is actually one of my main principles. we may disagree, even vigorously, but we can still talk without using cheap shots and hate speech. and we need to model this for others.

so, i just wanted to make clear that i appreciate those tenuous ovetures, from Ataman and bganon, and i hope and trust that my postings won't keep getting lost.

thank you.

roberto
frisco/ sarajevo
robertoruss@yahoo.com

(The Swiss, 26 September 2008 12:51)

I see you are very coherent and above all impartial in your position ;)))

How the hell did you changed from corruption and economic development in a classic Serbian style labelling as Islamic of the Marxist movement as KLA was initially??? ;))

P.S. for all Islamofobs in this site (many Albanians too) being a Muslim IS NOT A CRIME- OK?????

"I am praying every day that this deceitful and hypocritical proposal by serbia fails and fails miserably. and i will do whatever i can do (which is not much) to push for its failure."

Roberto buddy, I got news for you. It looks as if all the praying your doing is rather futile because it looks like Serbia will win. So a bit of advice, stop wasting yours and Allah's time.

"now, i want to add -- twice in the past week 2 different posters from the "serb camp" (thAt is the accepted language on this site) have tried to communicate with me or even supported my positions in fair and decent ways. when i have responded accordingly, the posting were "lost." so what's that all about? my principles are absolutely important and consistent (as best a human being can be) but i do encourage dialogue, even and especially with members of the other side. that is actually one of my main principles"

Roberto, dont give up the day job, because I'll tell you why. In the first section of your statement you pray to Allah that the 'deceitful and hypocritical proposal from Serbia fails and fails miserably' and then you go onto add this other gem, 'i will do whatever i can do (which is not much) to push for its failure.' You say you belive in dialogue and understanding but in 1 fell swoop you insult and ridicule Serbia's principled position. Thats not very diplomatic now is it. God help us if you were in charge at the UN. It doesnt bear thinking about. Imagine Ban Ki Moon mediating say between the Sri Lankan government and the Tamil Tigers and saying before hand that he hoped that the Sri Lankan government proposals failed and failed miserably. The Sri Lankans would be out the door before you say 'oranges'. Your one tracked mind and tunnel vision are clouding your judgement and frankly sir you are making a fool of yourself, contradicting yourself on a regular pattern all way through your statement and previous mumblings from you. You have enlightened us all. Now please stop bothering Allah and the rest of us with your crocodile tears and blatant Serbophobia.

Next please.

Viti i Balit:
> Of course its uncertain,no chance.
Do you realise that this statement is nonsense?

And Serbia has no wish to claim title to an place called 'Kosova'. In these uncertain times, indulging in speculation in 'Martian real-estate' is extremely unwise.


Kosovo-habitant:
> You repressed us by all violent means for more than twenty years ...

It was the communist government of Yugoslavia that did the 'oppressing' aided & abetted by albanian communists in Kosovo. And I might add that K-albanian's were not the only ones 'oppressed' during that period.

The government now in power in Serbia is a pro-western product of democracy, so invoking the name of 'Milosevic' in an attempt to convince yourself that Serbia will lose the vote at the GA is largely meaningless, save perhaps to those like you (see above) who seem to need some sort of certainty.


Independece
> Nonsence.Trying to make states vote against their decision.

Of course, US will not change it's mind. But others who have recognised 'pseudo-state' are a different story.

Costa Rica has indicated that it will. Others may very well do so & may not take much to 'tip them over', so every little bit helps - even the fiction of attempting to convince the US - the prime belligerant.

As for the rest of your post, just a few words.

Serbs will not give up on Kosovo.


Marko:
> so I would ask you what fruit will a non binding ICJ decision bear?

Ultimately? Forcing those who do not wish & have no incentive, to negotiate.

And more generally, to clarify international law, thereby strengthening the foundations on which the UN Charter rests.

While this may sound pompous & from my point-of-view, self-serving, is nevertheless true.

Those of you who may wish to tear down the UN in order to replace it with something more 'practical' should reflect on the very 'practicality' of being able to form such an entity as consensus would be all but impossible 'in practice'.


pss:
> instead of saying Serbia will never recognize the independence of Kosovo,

This has already been denied at a diplomatic level by Tadic's government which has categorically stated that it would abide by the ICJ's decision should it be called upon to make one.

What may influence some countries in their vote at the GA however, are the ramifications for stability should the serbs be denied in putting their case before the ICJ in the first place.

> There are far more important issues to consider at this time.
Yes there are.

And hopefully the US will be too busy to fully concentrate on this one.

"UN GA voting outcome uncertain, says Tadić".

This could very well be a usual performance in the Tadic-Jeremic high-drama theatre.
It is to be suspected that the GA resolution is a shoo- in,but it will be presented as "only thanks to the 'superhuman' efforts of our correct 'serbo-european' patriotism.

Peter while you are judging the efforts of Tadic and Jeremic, whose action much of Serbia supports, let me make a judgement of my own.

The small minority of false (Serb)patriots hoping that Serbia's diplomatic effort fails on Kosovo, are to be pitied.

Peter all though I respectfully disagree, I can assure you that your position is neither pompous or self-serving. My reservation is that leaving Serbia’s sovereignty in the hands of the UN is optimistic. This is not enough
I feel this way because I am convinced that as long as the separatists feel that they have carte blanche and Money coming from Nato, they will not be concerned with negotiations that include compromise. Serbia has not shown itself to be a serious opponent of the United States policy, proof of this is that Munter is still in Belgrade even though there would be very little cost, or damage to Serbia, If the US ambassador was removed until an new US. administration comes to power in January.
I also feel that Serbia should find concrete ways to build leverage before separatists finally agree to negotiate. In addition to this suit, which does not do much of anything, Serbia should have launched direct suits claiming damages against the countries that recognized the UDI. Dropping these suits could be a bargaining chip for Serbia in EU negotiations and it could show that the Serbian policy is not toothless.

peter,sydney
If you read the B92 article on the 23rd you will see it reported that one of the messages Tadic wanted to get across to the GA was that Serbia will never accept the UDI of Kosovo. Seeing how I doubt that the people of Uganda follow the news in Serbia, I bet that they missed any comments made to contrary. You probably missed that little part of the article while you were focusing on how to put down others comments.
And the US will probably be concentrating on other things because the status of Kosovo is considered resolved as far as the US is concerned.

Actually,Bganon,I agree with the Tadic-Jeremic iniciative.
As a matter of fact I am elated they have shown that much of guts, as to oppose the explicit warnings of our tutoring foreign ambassadors.
I always thought going into any negotiation like a beaten scabrous dog, will never bring Serbs anything but kicks.
Having said that, I have to add, that, even after the success of the GA vote, I don't expect much progress (unless you consider the insuing breast-beating which will inevitably follow for the domestic political purpose- as such).
To reopen the negotiations over Kosovo(I mean the real ones-without any of those century-lasting "road maps")would represent a major defeat for the U.S. and their stooges.( God, wouldn't that be a real fiesta). Will that happen?
It is not absolutely impossible after the military and economic fiascos the U.S. has suffered. We live in a World where historical processes evolve much more rapidly than in the past(just a few years back, the U.S. looked a knight with a shining armor,now, to go down begging for military and financial help).
If this opinion of mine,is your definition of a false Serbian patriot- let it be.How many of us are there? No idea, and,believe me-I don't give a damn.

I´d like to point out, and I think it´s the first time I agree with "Ben", many members of various international organizations ARE INDEED shamelessly getting richt at the expense of the local population, for whom a lot of money is being transferred.

the main problem is, actually, that these corrupt evil doers couldn´t succeed with their dirty business, if there were not members of the ruling "powers" among the K-albanians who are accomplices and also getting richt by helping this to happen every day.

and that´s why I constantly repeat that the K-albanians are still being duped, they fear Serbia, while their real enemy is among their very own poeple.

Serbia does not want to rule the K-albanians, as it was pointed out countless times.

Serbia is fighting peacefully to defend it´s territorial sovereignty, not more and not less.

as soon as the average Albanian has realized this, corruption and organized crime will decrease siginificantly, since these structures are depending on this limbo-situation.

that´s why we see Mr.Thaci and his comrades every few days saying something about a "done deal" and Serbia being "neighbour"...they simply want the situation to stay like it is, in order to consolidate their shadow-society...

Albanians, wake up! too much time has been lost, we all want to enjoy a brighter future, so sit back and think about whether your "leaders" of today will fulfill what they promised you...

cees:
Am not especially worried that Serbia's ties with Russia & Russia's recognition of the break-aways in Georgia will harm Serbia's credibility on this issue.

Serbia has already stated that it will not recognise the break-aways. And Saakashvili's attempt to recreate 'Operation Storm' followed by Russia's reaction will only serve to bolster Serbia's case.

And uncertainty in the outcome of the vote is due primarily to the unprincipled opposition of the US & 'brussels'.


Dashnori i Ceces:
> And Albanians will not give on Independence? So what's th point on negotiating?

And the alternative is? History shows us (especially in the balkans) that attempting to bury the issue in this way simply does not work.

The whole point of negotiations is to 'lock the two sides up in a very small room', throw away the key, & then wait.

May take yet more years, may take decades, but is the only way to ultimately resolve the issue without yet more bloodshed sometime down the track.


usaSERB:
> What ever happen with Macedonia recognizing Kosovo illegal UDI on 23rd

Had forgotten about that. Interesting point.

M-albanian deputies over-reaching themselves? Or perhaps worried about Serbia's diplomatic response?


EA:
> Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore.
Precisely.


marko:
> My reservation is that leaving Serbia’s sovereignty in the hands of the UN is optimistic. This is not enough

But it is a start, & Serbia needs to start somewhere.

Regarding Mr Munter, personally agree with you that he should be sent packing, but will just be replaced with a clone if embassy is not closed & closing US embassy in Belgrade is problematical with respect to how it is perceived by the rest of the world.

With regard to other specific suits, would counsel 'baby step's, & those 'one at a time'. A successful outcome before the ICJ (should the case reach it) would certainly help in that regard.

And plenty of time to worry about the EU.

Yes, Serbia does need 'leverage', but let's build the 'lever' first.


pss:
you said:
> If you read the B92 article on the 23rd you will see it reported that one of the messages Tadic wanted to get across to the GA was that Serbia will never accept the UDI of Kosovo.

And if you actually read the article again, you will find that Tadic actually said:

> that one of his main messages for the General Assembly would be that Serbia would never recognize Kosovo’s illegally declared independence.

Note the words 'illegally declared'.

In it's attempt to bring this matter before the ICJ, Serbia has to, as a matter of procedure, agree to accept the court's verdict should the case reach the ICJ.

And in the unlikely event (my personal opinion) that the ICJ rules against Serbia, then 'pseudo-state's Unilateral Declaration of Independence (UDI) becomes legal under international law.

So Serbia is obliged to accept it.

It is not however obliged to accept an 'illegal' declaration of independence.

And Tadic is perfectly correct when he says this as he did a couple of days ago.

> You probably missed that little part of the article while you were focusing on how to put down others comments.

My primary focus has always been to refute the propaganda presented by the other side.

Do I at times 'put people down' in doing so? Well.. yes. Do I take a certain amount of delight in doing so? Yes again. Am I a trifle pedantic in putting my arguments? Could be. Do I get it wrong sometimes? Certainly. Do I occasionally stray 'over the line'? Ask B92 :)

Such is my nature.

ps: and consider yourself 'put-down' ;)


L*O*G*I*C:
> So Serbia "fights" for its' territory by asking the opinion of an institution set up and founded by the countries which bombed it in 1999?

ICJ was founded by the victors of WWII - these also included Russia China & many others.

ICJ is not 'owned' by the west despite your words, & the judges reflect the 'true' international character of this institution. Here's the list of current members:

http://www.icj-cij.org/court/index.php?p1=1&p2=2&p3=1

As for focusing on Serbia's economic situation by pursuing the EU path exclusively, I personally think that the EU isn't the 'be all & end all' & Serbia would be better served in the long run by staying out of it.

But hey, that's a democracy for you - don't always get what you want - which also applies to the UDI in Kosovo, at least from the perspective of the majority of the population in Serbia.

Peter I see then that we are in agreement and no I don't think you have the view of a false patriot, although yes, I do think there are a few about.

Becaouse you stole them- in form oh high salaries. You see dera The Swiss if I bring you 10 Swiss org that would say egsactly the opposit of what you say will you stop abusing and speaking in name of Swiss???????
(ben, 25 September 2008 19:43)

Hahaha, you made my day with your funny comments....! But, pls, be my guest and provide me the name of all these organizations, would be happy to know them. Needless to say that it will not stop me to give my opinion whether you like or not.
And an interesting article for you, a bit old but so true!!
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/KLA-drugs.html

On 26 September 2008 06:19, peter, sydney wrote:

"Do I at times 'put people down' in doing so? Well.. yes. Do I take a certain amount of delight in doing so? Yes again. Am I a trifle pedantic in putting my arguments? Could be. Do I get it wrong sometimes? Certainly. Do I occasionally stray 'over the line'? Ask B92 :)"

2 points for peter!