"Serbia won't recognize Abkhazia, S. Ossetia"

I don't think too many will disagree with Jeremić here. Georiga has not recognised Kosovo and it's not like the "Ossentians" or "Abkhazians" are seeking a second, third or fourth country like the Albanians.

The biggest problem with the Georgians is that after the initial conflict and peace, they decided to once again use force and that is where they lost the right to those territories. Serbia on the other hand continues to insist on negotiation whereas the Albanians continue to threaten war.

It just goes to show the differences in approach coming from the East and West. I much prefer the East's insistence on negotiations rather than the West's continued agressive acts on this world. It really means that we can expect more peace and negotiations as the balance of power shifts East.

Peter SUdyka

" Russia has proven to be extremely unstable lately with their views on the latter question, they maintained their own sovereignty by crushing Chechen separatism ..."

Peter you don't have to spend so many words to say the single thing you advertise here all the time. You may simly say that you hate Russia and threfore are worried about our doubling our GNP during 9 years and about other Russian achievements.

Another thing you have to worry about is not to change you views so often. As I remember a couple of weeks ago you totally approved Russian operation in Chechnia saying that at least then you were not happy about the Chechens bringing disorder and violations to Poland.

Also after 12 millions of Germans were thrown out from their historic lands just to settle there the Polish newcomers who mostly collaborated the Nazi best if you stop speculating about "violating Georgia's territorial integrity" . Serbs who lost half of their lands will not block with you in any case.

As a "spoiled, egotistical brat" I also ask you to look better in the mirror and say if you Poles could have resently sold out yourselves at such a high price if there were not strong Russia on Earth ?


Mirsad UK

Don't be so optimistic about Serbia's problems. This is a 15 round match with no other rules while the refferees usually tribute to those who win the end of the fight. Untill Serbia has got Russia behind such people like you cannot afford relaxing. First you have to destroy us if only you dare to.


malcolm x, 24

I have to dissapoint you coz I am a critic of the USA. They failed to be a hegemon for they cannot cope with such small nations as Iraqis and the Afghans to say nothing of Russia . Since 2001 they vainfully try to receive back their plane from China. They failed to remove Chavez , to stop Iranian and S.Korean nuke programs , they failed to defend their Georgian... They fail everything they start to do ...

ZK UK

" I don't think too many will disagree with Jeremić here. Georiga has not recognised Kosovo and it's not like the "Ossentians" or "Abkhazians" are seeking a second, third or fourth country like the Albanians."

Dear ZK ! I believe this is the first time I have to disagree with you. I mean Serbia is right to stand on old and out of fashion international rules. But I disagree the logic you use to come to the same conclusion. If you were a frozen out Albanian it wouldn't even worth mentioning. But because you are ZK I'd like to stress the following :

1. Serbia could find a much softer form of disagreeing Russia if only the current ruling elites of yours are not interested to poison step by step our relations. At least Mr.Jeremic might had mentioned of the massacre arranged by the Georgians and thus justify at least the first stage of the Russian operation to forcing Georgia to peace.

2. What surprises me most is that as if "..." Ossentians" or "Abkhazians" are seeking a second, third or fourth country like the Albanians..." It only shows that you know very little of the truth. The truth is that Ossetians and Abkhasians live there during at least 2500 years while all Georgians and most of the Albanians in Kosovo are NEWCOMERS !!! So those people you mention with merely hidden irritation are just heroes who defended their fatherlands during 17 years despite the overwhelming domination of the Georgians. Just the same as Colonel Mihailovic and his Chetnics rebels in 1941 when there was not a hope for their victory ...

3. His first speech after the German attack in 1941 Stalin has endeded with words : "We are right! We will win!" ( Наше дело правое! Мы победим !) while Saacashvili after he launched the massacre said over the TV the following :" Our quantity is bigger ! We shall win !" ( Нас больше , мы победим !)

Please feel the difference ! Strange as it is but both of them were born 21 December and both of them by origin were Ossetians born from their Georgian mothers ...

3. Greater part of the Ossetians lands are outside of SO and were already included to Georgia. So the war was only around the remaining 40-45% of historic Ossetian lands in the South of Caucasus. THE REST OF THEIR LANDS ARE NOT EVEN DISCUSSED ... YET.

4. You speculations over the West and the East look naiive enough as if you are not a Serb but a newcomer from another planet. Wake up ! Last decade there's no more international legislation. The mess started only after Russia began to play the rules the West has invented after and implemented several times all over the world including Yugoslavia.

5. Unlike the Western minded Georgians some of the Ossetians ( as Russians )fought in Yugoslavia on you side. Two years ago I saw a film about one of them who married a Serbian and stayed to live there. Meanwhile American presidents in Georgia usually have twice bigger support than they can enjoy on the US mainland.

Be happy !

Come on guys, everyone expects a country to protect its own borders as it has the legal right to do so, whether it be Russia, Serbia, Yugoslavia, USA, Britian, Spain or any other UN recognised country.

However, it is the West and in particular the US who has impeded on the territorial integrity of others and attacked/invaded sovereign nations without UN approval. Look at the mess caused by the US/NATO/West in Iraq, Afghanstan and the former Yugoslavia. That cannot be compared to anything in recent history.

I really don't understand how you can draw parallels with Russia, China or India and the actions of the US. All of those Eastern states have been calling for a negotiated settlement between Belgrade and Pristina for while and respecting international law. The US on the other hand has been spreading instability and conflict throughout the world and that needs to stop.

When Kosovo declared its independence unilaterally, we warned that it represented a dangerous precedent," he said.

When Milosevic started to fill mass graves with K-Albanians bodies, he was warned that Serbia is going to face grave consequences. Where was Jeremic then to speak on behalf of the victims?
It's a little late now to complain, isn't it?

Throw Serbia's name in General Assembly, and everyone(except Chavez, Ahmadinejad and few others) will start thinking about hostilites. International Law will be stained if it's ever upon Serbia to protect it. Jeremic and Tadic play a vicious game, hoping to divide and thrust a knife among UN members. It's simply naive to think that the war of 1999 would be forgotten in the name of "Int. Law" a.k.a "give Serbia another chance". It is simply despicable that the "criminal" takes the "victim" to the court of law. It's a pity that Kosova's government doesn't ask for ICJ opinion on the question. "Are the murders, humilitation and attrocities commited by Serbian State during the war of 90's against Kosovar civilians in accordance with International Law?".

ZK UK;

What western agression do you speak of? History tells us that eastern europe is the most unstable and war-torn part of europe, especially the balkans (thanks to serbian policies, 1989 onwards) but also due to Russia and its century-long ideological war with the West i.e. Satellite states and communism.

Just because Serbia has put on a sheep clothing does not mean you are not instrinctively war-minded, but this attitude has not worked out for you since the fall of Yugoslavia is Serbias own doing, and you have adopted a diplomatic and 'respecting international law' approach, which has worked out to be effective, but will fail in the end because of Serbia's long CV of human rights violation and mass massacres all over the balkans.

Rote, you may have misinterpreted what I was saying. Personally I don't think Serbia should recognise SO or AK for the same reasons Georgia has not recognised Kosovo. It is the danger of the precedent it sets and Russia has most definitely proven that. Serbians do support Russia against Georgian aggression and my point being that the action is justified. Under instructions from the US the Georgian forces attacked and killed Russian citizens and peacekeepers so it was only natural for Russia to intervene.

My other point being that Albanians already have a homeland being Albania but now they want to carve another 3 countries out of Serbian, Macedonian and Montenegrin territory. However, that is not the case for Ossentians or Abkhazians who justifiably want one country.

I think you should know my opinion of this current sell-out government. However, I don't believe any party would have taken the step to recognise SO and AK just yet.

Of course Kosovo is no precedent, that's why you are afraid.
Did Mr. Jeremic really ment what he said: Is he warning the world of Russia?
It is only Russia attacking neigbours and arguing with Kosovo.
On this point one can agree Mr. Jremic, Russia is really dangerous.

Serbia could find a much softer form of disagreeing Russia if only the current ruling elites of yours are not interested to poison step by step our relations. At least Mr.Jeremic might had mentioned of the massacre arranged by the Georgians and thus justify at least the first stage of the Russian operation to forcing Georgia to peace.
(Rote Kapelle)

I agree. What I actually think is that Serbia should recognise Ossetia and Abhkazia by simply finding it as a very unique case and still preserve its right not to recognise Kosovo. One of the best arguments could be that Kosovo and Ossetia-Abhkazia cases are different cases and have no similarities at all, which we could hear recently coming from the EU and USA.

Miri

I drop here once a week to give moral support to my Serbian brothers and to explain Russian viewing of some events so I cannot avoid being radical but there’s no hatred in me. This world needs radical but not cosmetic changes and my country heads this struggle.

You also don’t have to judge so strict the B92 censors for they very often cut out 10-15% of my posts. I can explain myself myself in several languages while I am skeptic enough about my English. I have never lived in the West though I have business contacts in the USA , EU and China.


ZK UK

I too believe that in the circumstances Serbia has to avoid such a recognition but you could have done it in a more friendly way … Another difference is that Serbs have much more in common with the Ossetians and Abkhasians but not with the Georgians who like the Albanians try to legalize the lands they occupied after WW2 as their own.

Only Ossetians intend to join Russia where 90% of their nation lives now. They joined Russia long before Georgia with no divisions for South and North while Abkhasia also before 1936 had never been a part of Georgia. Georgians are to nationalistic to share one home place with them.

According to the international law even if one state has recognized you are already an independent state. ( In 1919 Soviet Russia and Afghanistan were the first states to recognize each other. ) So Serbian recognition would change little for us while it could harm you in your own conflicts. But at least you could have supported our humanitarian operation in Georgia like other friendly nations did …


Marko

You maybe even do not guess how right you are when you say “ there was a proxy war started by a rogue western puppet who behaved as Tudjman did in Krajina” ! The thing is that Saak has been thoroughly studying all blitzkriegs in the history paying special attention to the STORM operation in Krajina.

More than that ! He attracted to train the same American organization which had trained the Croats ! Together with other Amarican, Israeli , Ukrainian and UK instructors they have been working hard to copy the Croat attack. If you look through the chronology of the two wars you will find much in common especially as for the massacre among the civilians. This tactics the Yanks had obtained in Viet Nam where they took any civilian as a potential enemy who can fire from behind and thus must be eliminated …

Marko I disagree when you say that the Georgian nation is not responsible … It is responsible for bringing chauvinists twice to power and pushing out of the state national minorities. Saak sat in Tbilisi while thousands of Georgians destroyed Orthodox churches and killed Orthodox people … Their main punishment will be not on the Earth !

I disagree with some of the arguments here and I would like to present some clarifications for discussions.
There was no Georgian aggression against S.O. and Ab., instead there was a proxy war started by a rogue western puppet who behaved as Tudjman did in Krajina. Saakasvili burned a city thinking that the Georgian people would think he is another "King David the Builder".
The Russians have a long term interest in repairing relations with Georgia, and this recognition of S.O. and Ab. puts that future in jeopardy. The recognition of S.O. and Ab is a mistake; the Georgian nation is not responsible for the actions of a government that was hoisted on them by U.S. money. Further to that minorities are entitled by international law and morality to individual rights, however individual rights do not include a right to dismantle a country and create a new one. People may well not like this, but it is the law and it is a fact http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/d5drm.htm
Further, while the United States and there allies were complaining of Russian violations of a Nation's sovereignty, the U.S. was conducting illegal bombing raids in Pakistani territory which has resulted in civilian deaths. This is how the U.S. treats its partners and respects sovereignty
Despite the raids in Pakistan, a supposed ally in the war of/on terror , there have been no condemnations of the U.S. from Western Europe-there silence is deafening. The US continues with its foreign policy based exclusively on self interest, hubris and derision while it’s proponents talk of international partners.

Rote Kapelle

I will challenge your missiformation about that albanians in KOSOVA are"Newcommers". This is untrue, pathetic indeed! Have you ever read anything of history about this or you just continue to write what you like. I will tell you very short: Kosovaalbanians are Dardanians (Illyrian tribe) which lived more than 3000 years BC, whille your brothers, slavic serbs emigrated to Balkans just after year 600 AC.

ZK UK

While I agree that peaceful negotiations are essential and that international law with regards to sovereingty and territorial integrity, I think the view that the East (or at least elements thereof) is better than the West here is inaccurate.

Russia has proven to be extremely unstable lately with their views on the latter question, they maintained their own sovereignty by crushing Chechen separatism and encouraged dialogue between Pristina and Belgrade, but they completely disregarded their moral integrity on this matter as well as their standing by violating Georgia's territorial integrity just to show the US they can too? I don't like Saakashvili either, but is this a reason to be a complete hypocrite as to one's views on something? This is why I say over and over again, the two biggest hypocrites in the world are the US and Russia. Like two spoiled, egotistical brats.

China is a lot better, but peace and negotiations are not key words that leap to mind when talking about Tibet.

To conclude, this is a common thing among countries that have power and some sort of hegemony, international law can be interpreted by them how they like, this is why I agree with Putin when he says that there should not be a uni-polar world, however I would take this further and say that the UNSC should either be expanded to include other countries or abolished, as power is held by too few countries in the world today.

To ZK, since you have memory loss or ignorance to the agressions made by western countries, here is uncoplete list:
Afganistan, Oct 7 2001
Iraq, March 2003
Kosovo March 1999
Bosnia 1994-195
Gulf War 1990
Operation Just Cause, Panama 1989 - 1990
Operation El Dorado Canyon, Libya, 1986
Invasion of Grenada, Grenada, 1983
Occupation of Beirut, Lebanon, 1982
United States Overthrow of Chilean Government, 1964
United States Occupation of Laos, 1962
Vietnam War, 1962
United States overthrow of Guatemalan Government, 1907-1933
Korean War, 1950
Operation Powerpack, Dominican Republic, 1965
Bay of Pigs Invasion, Cuba, 1961
Operation Ajax, US overthrow of Iranian Government, 1953
United States Intervention in Greek Election, 1947

Peter SUdyka

@@@ “they maintained their own sovereignty by crushing Chechen separatism”

@@@ “It was just a comparison to show Russia's hypocrisy…”

@@@ “To the Russians I know here in Warsaw, Chechens, Georgians, Ossetians and Abkhazians are all one and the same thing…”

@@@ “using Caucasian people to fight each other to Russia's political benefit, while the average Russian sits at home…”

In the context I can see no approval of what Russia is doing in NOHCHOISTAN ( i.e. CHECHNIA ) … and in Caucasus in general . But if you meant something else please forgive me for like most of the Russian I do not trust 3-4 nations with the Poles among them. Nothing but hatred and provocations comes here from Poland and it’s nothing but just an instinct of self keeping … Well maybe you are an exclusion from the tested rule …

@@@ “Ha ha, it was YOUR Stalin who gave us those lands in the first place, aside from STEALING our lands in the East!”

You look funny ! Stalin just returned the lands that 19 years before had belonged to us and were inhabited mostly by Russians which now prefer to be called as Belarus and Ukrainians. Yes there were some Polish villages in the suburbs of the Russian cities you have mentioned but those were Russian lands with Russian names and Russian population. So Stalin just returned what the Poles has stolen when in 1920 they stroke from the back to a wounded Russia devastated by 6 years of permanent wars … So in 1945 those lands were just a present. Another present was that “our Stalin” has added Poland to the Anti Hitler Coalition and thus saved you from the Nuernberg Process.

@@@ “Russia is not as strong as you say it is economically and hardly attractive to Poland…”

We are number two economic in Europe and number two in Asia but in the year 2009 we are expected to be N 1 in Europe so the things run not so bad. But what I really meant about selling yourselves was that thanks to the Russian successes you made a much better bargain over the missiles. Otherwise your Patrones cared little of what you begged them to give you instead. As you know PATRIOTS are helpless against the TOPOLS , the BULAVAS and the ISKANDERS … Wrong stake !

Serbia, Get REAL!! you think any one really cares if you recognisie Ossentians" or "Abkhazians Or not. Russia could not care less. Let me tell you whats going to happen, Ossentians" or "Abkhazians is going to be recognized by the western/US world. In return Russia will recognize Kosovo. AND Serbia will be left with its fingers in the mouth. It was the same in the 99 bombing , Russia did not stop it.
Cheers,
Joe NYC

@ZK UK:

"Come on guys, everyone expects a country to protect its own borders as it has the legal right to do so, whether it be Russia, Serbia, Yugoslavia, USA, Britian, Spain or any other UN recognised country."

Well, exactly that`s the point. Russia did NOT protect it`s borders. Georgia did.

Mr. Kapella wrote: "As a "spoiled, egotistical brat"

Mr. Kapella, you are entitled to your opinion and your "hateful and venomous way of living" but your are not entitled to personal insults behind the curtain of internet. You write, usually long messages, which I believe, is the reason that your spiteful language inserted always in the middle of paragraphs, is not censured properly .
Your command of english seems to be at an adequate level, thus I assume you have lived in a western place or at least have had some contact with western culture for some time. This very fact should make anyone's face blush when reads your hateful language.

To B92: It is not my intention to post this message, if you don't want to, but please refrain this guy from using such profane language. It's not the first time.

Peter SUdyka,

it's refreshing to see people who are able to criticise both usa and russia while serbs and albanians here idealise their respective patrons and permanently play the eternal blame game with total disregard for other side's concern.

"Serbia won't recognize Abkhazia, S. Ossetia"

-- Well, duh.

Rote, you are right. This government could be a lot more supportive to Russia on SO and AK but we all know they are sell-outs and lean to the West. I don't think they will get through the next election as the opposition should get their act ready by then and the West will no longer be the flavour of the month.

The timing will come when we fully back Russia and recognise SO and AK. It will be the time when Kosovo is back within our grip and Republika Srpska declares independence.

The way things are going, I don't expect this to be too far away.

Peter Sudyka said:

“I would take this further and say that the UNSC should either be expanded to include other countries or abolished, as power is held by too few countries in the world today.”

I must admit that I completely agree with that! In my opinion, UNSC should expand its permanent membership from 5 to, at least, 10, and non permanent membership from 10 to 20. Additionally, in my opinion, no country should hold a VETO power, but voting to be done with a qualified majority, what would avoid misuse of the veto by member states, what history proved many times so far.

Serbia would not make the mistake of recognizing SO and AK, even if it did mean supporting their ally Russia.

Unlike US and Russia, at least Serbian foreign policy appears to be consistent when it comes to the basic foundations of International Law.

Rote Kapella

"You may simly say that you hate Russia and threfore are worried about our doubling our GNP during 9 years and about other Russian achievements."

Oh, give it a break, I don't hate Russia and I have never said that I have. If Russia's economy triples or quadruples, great, they deserve it after the 1998 disaster and I have no problem with that at all. You are exactly like ORTHODOX.RU in how you assume I hate Russia and Russians and want to see them suffer and all that nonsense. I DON'T!

"As I remember a couple of weeks ago you totally approved Russian operation in Chechnia saying that at least then you were not happy about the Chechens bringing disorder and violations to Poland. "

When did I ever say I disagree with Russia's actions against Chechnya? I still approve of it and I still maintain a negative view of the Chechens in Poland, I don't get why you say I changed my mind. You completely took what I said out of context. I said that Russia has this view towards Chechnya and Kosovo (pro-international law on territorial integrity and sovereignty) and a totally different one on South Ossetia and Abkhazia (anti-international law on territorial integrity and sovereignty). It was just a comparison to show Russia's hypocrisy, I have nothing against what Russia did in Chechnya (it has nothing to do with my point anyway). Read my topics better before you comment so rashly.

BTW. I refuse to believe that Russia did what they did to protect "their" citizens. To the Russians I know here in Warsaw, Chechens, Georgians, Ossetians and Abkhazians are all one and the same thing: Ciorny. I also couldn't help but notice most of the "Russian" soldiers fighting in Georgia this year appeared to be particularly rugged and dark in appearance, which gave me the impression that it was simply Putin pulling the strings, using Caucasian people to fight each other to Russia's political benefit, while the average Russian sits at home and hates that their tax payers' money goes to support some Ciornys in the Kaukaz, so this moral bollocks on Russia part is simply a joke.

Also, what is everyone's obssession with my consistency? Just because I am not a blind pro-Russian Serb and not a blind pro-American Albanian or a Russian or American chauvinist, does that mean I am suddenly inconsistent?

"Also after 12 millions of Germans were thrown out from their historic lands just to settle there the Polish newcomers who mostly collaborated the Nazi best if you stop speculating about "violating Georgia's territorial integrity" ."

Haha, it was YOUR Stalin who gave us those lands in the first place, aside from STEALING our lands in the East! Lwow, Brest-Litowsk and such are purely Polish cities which the Soviets STOLE from us! Konigsburg is also an example of this theft. BTW Those lands were Polish for a thousand years before they ever became German (Poznan, Wroclaw, Gniezno etc.), they were stolen by the Prussian in the three partions of Poland, so please read a little about the history of Poland before spreading your anti-Polish propaganda.

"As a "spoiled, egotistical brat" I also ask you to look better in the mirror and say if you Poles could have resently sold out yourselves at such a high price if there were not strong Russia on Earth ? "

That's not very nice, I never used language like that to you, why can't you afford me the same courtesy? BTW Poland did not sell itself to anyone, obviously the Russians think so because they are hurt that we want nothing more to do with them and chose the West. Russia is not as strong as you say it is economically and hardly attractive to Poland, if we had a choice between a combined economy of almost $30 trillion (EU and US) and $2 trillion (Russia), it does not take a rocket scientist to understand Poland's choice in who to ally with economically and militarily.

Don't forget that the vast majority of Russia's trade partners are European countries, and that Russia's economic boom would not be possible without Europe's money. If it weren't for a market for Russia's natural resources, you would still be stuck in the 1990's (Yeltsin).

Joe,

how come you fail to mention that in your scenario there is someone else together with serbia who would "be left with its fingers in the mouth", namely georgia? and don't be silly. neither usa nor russia have much to gain in such a trade-off.

ZK UK;

What western agression do you speak of? History tells us that eastern europe is the most unstable and war-torn part of europe, especially the balkans (thanks to serbian policies, 1989 onwards) but also due to Russia and its century-long ideological war with the West i.e. Satellite states and communism.

Just because Serbia has put on a sheep clothing does not mean you are not instrinctively war-minded, but this attitude has not worked out for you since the fall of Yugoslavia is Serbias own doing, and you have adopted a diplomatic and 'respecting international law' approach, which has worked out to be effective, but will fail in the end because of Serbia's long CV of human rights violation and mass massacres all over the balkans.

Of course Kosovo is no precedent, that's why you are afraid.
Did Mr. Jeremic really ment what he said: Is he warning the world of Russia?
It is only Russia attacking neigbours and arguing with Kosovo.
On this point one can agree Mr. Jremic, Russia is really dangerous.

When Kosovo declared its independence unilaterally, we warned that it represented a dangerous precedent," he said.

When Milosevic started to fill mass graves with K-Albanians bodies, he was warned that Serbia is going to face grave consequences. Where was Jeremic then to speak on behalf of the victims?
It's a little late now to complain, isn't it?

Throw Serbia's name in General Assembly, and everyone(except Chavez, Ahmadinejad and few others) will start thinking about hostilites. International Law will be stained if it's ever upon Serbia to protect it. Jeremic and Tadic play a vicious game, hoping to divide and thrust a knife among UN members. It's simply naive to think that the war of 1999 would be forgotten in the name of "Int. Law" a.k.a "give Serbia another chance". It is simply despicable that the "criminal" takes the "victim" to the court of law. It's a pity that Kosova's government doesn't ask for ICJ opinion on the question. "Are the murders, humilitation and attrocities commited by Serbian State during the war of 90's against Kosovar civilians in accordance with International Law?".

I don't think too many will disagree with Jeremić here. Georiga has not recognised Kosovo and it's not like the "Ossentians" or "Abkhazians" are seeking a second, third or fourth country like the Albanians.

The biggest problem with the Georgians is that after the initial conflict and peace, they decided to once again use force and that is where they lost the right to those territories. Serbia on the other hand continues to insist on negotiation whereas the Albanians continue to threaten war.

It just goes to show the differences in approach coming from the East and West. I much prefer the East's insistence on negotiations rather than the West's continued agressive acts on this world. It really means that we can expect more peace and negotiations as the balance of power shifts East.

ZK UK

While I agree that peaceful negotiations are essential and that international law with regards to sovereingty and territorial integrity, I think the view that the East (or at least elements thereof) is better than the West here is inaccurate.

Russia has proven to be extremely unstable lately with their views on the latter question, they maintained their own sovereignty by crushing Chechen separatism and encouraged dialogue between Pristina and Belgrade, but they completely disregarded their moral integrity on this matter as well as their standing by violating Georgia's territorial integrity just to show the US they can too? I don't like Saakashvili either, but is this a reason to be a complete hypocrite as to one's views on something? This is why I say over and over again, the two biggest hypocrites in the world are the US and Russia. Like two spoiled, egotistical brats.

China is a lot better, but peace and negotiations are not key words that leap to mind when talking about Tibet.

To conclude, this is a common thing among countries that have power and some sort of hegemony, international law can be interpreted by them how they like, this is why I agree with Putin when he says that there should not be a uni-polar world, however I would take this further and say that the UNSC should either be expanded to include other countries or abolished, as power is held by too few countries in the world today.

Come on guys, everyone expects a country to protect its own borders as it has the legal right to do so, whether it be Russia, Serbia, Yugoslavia, USA, Britian, Spain or any other UN recognised country.

However, it is the West and in particular the US who has impeded on the territorial integrity of others and attacked/invaded sovereign nations without UN approval. Look at the mess caused by the US/NATO/West in Iraq, Afghanstan and the former Yugoslavia. That cannot be compared to anything in recent history.

I really don't understand how you can draw parallels with Russia, China or India and the actions of the US. All of those Eastern states have been calling for a negotiated settlement between Belgrade and Pristina for while and respecting international law. The US on the other hand has been spreading instability and conflict throughout the world and that needs to stop.

Peter SUdyka,

it's refreshing to see people who are able to criticise both usa and russia while serbs and albanians here idealise their respective patrons and permanently play the eternal blame game with total disregard for other side's concern.

ZK UK

" I don't think too many will disagree with Jeremić here. Georiga has not recognised Kosovo and it's not like the "Ossentians" or "Abkhazians" are seeking a second, third or fourth country like the Albanians."

Dear ZK ! I believe this is the first time I have to disagree with you. I mean Serbia is right to stand on old and out of fashion international rules. But I disagree the logic you use to come to the same conclusion. If you were a frozen out Albanian it wouldn't even worth mentioning. But because you are ZK I'd like to stress the following :

1. Serbia could find a much softer form of disagreeing Russia if only the current ruling elites of yours are not interested to poison step by step our relations. At least Mr.Jeremic might had mentioned of the massacre arranged by the Georgians and thus justify at least the first stage of the Russian operation to forcing Georgia to peace.

2. What surprises me most is that as if "..." Ossentians" or "Abkhazians" are seeking a second, third or fourth country like the Albanians..." It only shows that you know very little of the truth. The truth is that Ossetians and Abkhasians live there during at least 2500 years while all Georgians and most of the Albanians in Kosovo are NEWCOMERS !!! So those people you mention with merely hidden irritation are just heroes who defended their fatherlands during 17 years despite the overwhelming domination of the Georgians. Just the same as Colonel Mihailovic and his Chetnics rebels in 1941 when there was not a hope for their victory ...

3. His first speech after the German attack in 1941 Stalin has endeded with words : "We are right! We will win!" ( Наше дело правое! Мы победим !) while Saacashvili after he launched the massacre said over the TV the following :" Our quantity is bigger ! We shall win !" ( Нас больше , мы победим !)

Please feel the difference ! Strange as it is but both of them were born 21 December and both of them by origin were Ossetians born from their Georgian mothers ...

3. Greater part of the Ossetians lands are outside of SO and were already included to Georgia. So the war was only around the remaining 40-45% of historic Ossetian lands in the South of Caucasus. THE REST OF THEIR LANDS ARE NOT EVEN DISCUSSED ... YET.

4. You speculations over the West and the East look naiive enough as if you are not a Serb but a newcomer from another planet. Wake up ! Last decade there's no more international legislation. The mess started only after Russia began to play the rules the West has invented after and implemented several times all over the world including Yugoslavia.

5. Unlike the Western minded Georgians some of the Ossetians ( as Russians )fought in Yugoslavia on you side. Two years ago I saw a film about one of them who married a Serbian and stayed to live there. Meanwhile American presidents in Georgia usually have twice bigger support than they can enjoy on the US mainland.

Be happy !

Mr. Kapella wrote: "As a "spoiled, egotistical brat"

Mr. Kapella, you are entitled to your opinion and your "hateful and venomous way of living" but your are not entitled to personal insults behind the curtain of internet. You write, usually long messages, which I believe, is the reason that your spiteful language inserted always in the middle of paragraphs, is not censured properly .
Your command of english seems to be at an adequate level, thus I assume you have lived in a western place or at least have had some contact with western culture for some time. This very fact should make anyone's face blush when reads your hateful language.

To B92: It is not my intention to post this message, if you don't want to, but please refrain this guy from using such profane language. It's not the first time.

Rote Kapelle

I will challenge your missiformation about that albanians in KOSOVA are"Newcommers". This is untrue, pathetic indeed! Have you ever read anything of history about this or you just continue to write what you like. I will tell you very short: Kosovaalbanians are Dardanians (Illyrian tribe) which lived more than 3000 years BC, whille your brothers, slavic serbs emigrated to Balkans just after year 600 AC.

Peter Sudyka said:

“I would take this further and say that the UNSC should either be expanded to include other countries or abolished, as power is held by too few countries in the world today.”

I must admit that I completely agree with that! In my opinion, UNSC should expand its permanent membership from 5 to, at least, 10, and non permanent membership from 10 to 20. Additionally, in my opinion, no country should hold a VETO power, but voting to be done with a qualified majority, what would avoid misuse of the veto by member states, what history proved many times so far.

@ZK UK:

"Come on guys, everyone expects a country to protect its own borders as it has the legal right to do so, whether it be Russia, Serbia, Yugoslavia, USA, Britian, Spain or any other UN recognised country."

Well, exactly that`s the point. Russia did NOT protect it`s borders. Georgia did.

"Serbia won't recognize Abkhazia, S. Ossetia"

-- Well, duh.

Peter SUdyka

" Russia has proven to be extremely unstable lately with their views on the latter question, they maintained their own sovereignty by crushing Chechen separatism ..."

Peter you don't have to spend so many words to say the single thing you advertise here all the time. You may simly say that you hate Russia and threfore are worried about our doubling our GNP during 9 years and about other Russian achievements.

Another thing you have to worry about is not to change you views so often. As I remember a couple of weeks ago you totally approved Russian operation in Chechnia saying that at least then you were not happy about the Chechens bringing disorder and violations to Poland.

Also after 12 millions of Germans were thrown out from their historic lands just to settle there the Polish newcomers who mostly collaborated the Nazi best if you stop speculating about "violating Georgia's territorial integrity" . Serbs who lost half of their lands will not block with you in any case.

As a "spoiled, egotistical brat" I also ask you to look better in the mirror and say if you Poles could have resently sold out yourselves at such a high price if there were not strong Russia on Earth ?


Mirsad UK

Don't be so optimistic about Serbia's problems. This is a 15 round match with no other rules while the refferees usually tribute to those who win the end of the fight. Untill Serbia has got Russia behind such people like you cannot afford relaxing. First you have to destroy us if only you dare to.


malcolm x, 24

I have to dissapoint you coz I am a critic of the USA. They failed to be a hegemon for they cannot cope with such small nations as Iraqis and the Afghans to say nothing of Russia . Since 2001 they vainfully try to receive back their plane from China. They failed to remove Chavez , to stop Iranian and S.Korean nuke programs , they failed to defend their Georgian... They fail everything they start to do ...

To ZK, since you have memory loss or ignorance to the agressions made by western countries, here is uncoplete list:
Afganistan, Oct 7 2001
Iraq, March 2003
Kosovo March 1999
Bosnia 1994-195
Gulf War 1990
Operation Just Cause, Panama 1989 - 1990
Operation El Dorado Canyon, Libya, 1986
Invasion of Grenada, Grenada, 1983
Occupation of Beirut, Lebanon, 1982
United States Overthrow of Chilean Government, 1964
United States Occupation of Laos, 1962
Vietnam War, 1962
United States overthrow of Guatemalan Government, 1907-1933
Korean War, 1950
Operation Powerpack, Dominican Republic, 1965
Bay of Pigs Invasion, Cuba, 1961
Operation Ajax, US overthrow of Iranian Government, 1953
United States Intervention in Greek Election, 1947

Serbia could find a much softer form of disagreeing Russia if only the current ruling elites of yours are not interested to poison step by step our relations. At least Mr.Jeremic might had mentioned of the massacre arranged by the Georgians and thus justify at least the first stage of the Russian operation to forcing Georgia to peace.
(Rote Kapelle)

I agree. What I actually think is that Serbia should recognise Ossetia and Abhkazia by simply finding it as a very unique case and still preserve its right not to recognise Kosovo. One of the best arguments could be that Kosovo and Ossetia-Abhkazia cases are different cases and have no similarities at all, which we could hear recently coming from the EU and USA.

Rote, you may have misinterpreted what I was saying. Personally I don't think Serbia should recognise SO or AK for the same reasons Georgia has not recognised Kosovo. It is the danger of the precedent it sets and Russia has most definitely proven that. Serbians do support Russia against Georgian aggression and my point being that the action is justified. Under instructions from the US the Georgian forces attacked and killed Russian citizens and peacekeepers so it was only natural for Russia to intervene.

My other point being that Albanians already have a homeland being Albania but now they want to carve another 3 countries out of Serbian, Macedonian and Montenegrin territory. However, that is not the case for Ossentians or Abkhazians who justifiably want one country.

I think you should know my opinion of this current sell-out government. However, I don't believe any party would have taken the step to recognise SO and AK just yet.

I disagree with some of the arguments here and I would like to present some clarifications for discussions.
There was no Georgian aggression against S.O. and Ab., instead there was a proxy war started by a rogue western puppet who behaved as Tudjman did in Krajina. Saakasvili burned a city thinking that the Georgian people would think he is another "King David the Builder".
The Russians have a long term interest in repairing relations with Georgia, and this recognition of S.O. and Ab. puts that future in jeopardy. The recognition of S.O. and Ab is a mistake; the Georgian nation is not responsible for the actions of a government that was hoisted on them by U.S. money. Further to that minorities are entitled by international law and morality to individual rights, however individual rights do not include a right to dismantle a country and create a new one. People may well not like this, but it is the law and it is a fact http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/d5drm.htm
Further, while the United States and there allies were complaining of Russian violations of a Nation's sovereignty, the U.S. was conducting illegal bombing raids in Pakistani territory which has resulted in civilian deaths. This is how the U.S. treats its partners and respects sovereignty
Despite the raids in Pakistan, a supposed ally in the war of/on terror , there have been no condemnations of the U.S. from Western Europe-there silence is deafening. The US continues with its foreign policy based exclusively on self interest, hubris and derision while it’s proponents talk of international partners.

Serbia would not make the mistake of recognizing SO and AK, even if it did mean supporting their ally Russia.

Unlike US and Russia, at least Serbian foreign policy appears to be consistent when it comes to the basic foundations of International Law.

Miri

I drop here once a week to give moral support to my Serbian brothers and to explain Russian viewing of some events so I cannot avoid being radical but there’s no hatred in me. This world needs radical but not cosmetic changes and my country heads this struggle.

You also don’t have to judge so strict the B92 censors for they very often cut out 10-15% of my posts. I can explain myself myself in several languages while I am skeptic enough about my English. I have never lived in the West though I have business contacts in the USA , EU and China.


ZK UK

I too believe that in the circumstances Serbia has to avoid such a recognition but you could have done it in a more friendly way … Another difference is that Serbs have much more in common with the Ossetians and Abkhasians but not with the Georgians who like the Albanians try to legalize the lands they occupied after WW2 as their own.

Only Ossetians intend to join Russia where 90% of their nation lives now. They joined Russia long before Georgia with no divisions for South and North while Abkhasia also before 1936 had never been a part of Georgia. Georgians are to nationalistic to share one home place with them.

According to the international law even if one state has recognized you are already an independent state. ( In 1919 Soviet Russia and Afghanistan were the first states to recognize each other. ) So Serbian recognition would change little for us while it could harm you in your own conflicts. But at least you could have supported our humanitarian operation in Georgia like other friendly nations did …


Marko

You maybe even do not guess how right you are when you say “ there was a proxy war started by a rogue western puppet who behaved as Tudjman did in Krajina” ! The thing is that Saak has been thoroughly studying all blitzkriegs in the history paying special attention to the STORM operation in Krajina.

More than that ! He attracted to train the same American organization which had trained the Croats ! Together with other Amarican, Israeli , Ukrainian and UK instructors they have been working hard to copy the Croat attack. If you look through the chronology of the two wars you will find much in common especially as for the massacre among the civilians. This tactics the Yanks had obtained in Viet Nam where they took any civilian as a potential enemy who can fire from behind and thus must be eliminated …

Marko I disagree when you say that the Georgian nation is not responsible … It is responsible for bringing chauvinists twice to power and pushing out of the state national minorities. Saak sat in Tbilisi while thousands of Georgians destroyed Orthodox churches and killed Orthodox people … Their main punishment will be not on the Earth !

Rote Kapella

"You may simly say that you hate Russia and threfore are worried about our doubling our GNP during 9 years and about other Russian achievements."

Oh, give it a break, I don't hate Russia and I have never said that I have. If Russia's economy triples or quadruples, great, they deserve it after the 1998 disaster and I have no problem with that at all. You are exactly like ORTHODOX.RU in how you assume I hate Russia and Russians and want to see them suffer and all that nonsense. I DON'T!

"As I remember a couple of weeks ago you totally approved Russian operation in Chechnia saying that at least then you were not happy about the Chechens bringing disorder and violations to Poland. "

When did I ever say I disagree with Russia's actions against Chechnya? I still approve of it and I still maintain a negative view of the Chechens in Poland, I don't get why you say I changed my mind. You completely took what I said out of context. I said that Russia has this view towards Chechnya and Kosovo (pro-international law on territorial integrity and sovereignty) and a totally different one on South Ossetia and Abkhazia (anti-international law on territorial integrity and sovereignty). It was just a comparison to show Russia's hypocrisy, I have nothing against what Russia did in Chechnya (it has nothing to do with my point anyway). Read my topics better before you comment so rashly.

BTW. I refuse to believe that Russia did what they did to protect "their" citizens. To the Russians I know here in Warsaw, Chechens, Georgians, Ossetians and Abkhazians are all one and the same thing: Ciorny. I also couldn't help but notice most of the "Russian" soldiers fighting in Georgia this year appeared to be particularly rugged and dark in appearance, which gave me the impression that it was simply Putin pulling the strings, using Caucasian people to fight each other to Russia's political benefit, while the average Russian sits at home and hates that their tax payers' money goes to support some Ciornys in the Kaukaz, so this moral bollocks on Russia part is simply a joke.

Also, what is everyone's obssession with my consistency? Just because I am not a blind pro-Russian Serb and not a blind pro-American Albanian or a Russian or American chauvinist, does that mean I am suddenly inconsistent?

"Also after 12 millions of Germans were thrown out from their historic lands just to settle there the Polish newcomers who mostly collaborated the Nazi best if you stop speculating about "violating Georgia's territorial integrity" ."

Haha, it was YOUR Stalin who gave us those lands in the first place, aside from STEALING our lands in the East! Lwow, Brest-Litowsk and such are purely Polish cities which the Soviets STOLE from us! Konigsburg is also an example of this theft. BTW Those lands were Polish for a thousand years before they ever became German (Poznan, Wroclaw, Gniezno etc.), they were stolen by the Prussian in the three partions of Poland, so please read a little about the history of Poland before spreading your anti-Polish propaganda.

"As a "spoiled, egotistical brat" I also ask you to look better in the mirror and say if you Poles could have resently sold out yourselves at such a high price if there were not strong Russia on Earth ? "

That's not very nice, I never used language like that to you, why can't you afford me the same courtesy? BTW Poland did not sell itself to anyone, obviously the Russians think so because they are hurt that we want nothing more to do with them and chose the West. Russia is not as strong as you say it is economically and hardly attractive to Poland, if we had a choice between a combined economy of almost $30 trillion (EU and US) and $2 trillion (Russia), it does not take a rocket scientist to understand Poland's choice in who to ally with economically and militarily.

Don't forget that the vast majority of Russia's trade partners are European countries, and that Russia's economic boom would not be possible without Europe's money. If it weren't for a market for Russia's natural resources, you would still be stuck in the 1990's (Yeltsin).

Rote, you are right. This government could be a lot more supportive to Russia on SO and AK but we all know they are sell-outs and lean to the West. I don't think they will get through the next election as the opposition should get their act ready by then and the West will no longer be the flavour of the month.

The timing will come when we fully back Russia and recognise SO and AK. It will be the time when Kosovo is back within our grip and Republika Srpska declares independence.

The way things are going, I don't expect this to be too far away.

Peter SUdyka

@@@ “they maintained their own sovereignty by crushing Chechen separatism”

@@@ “It was just a comparison to show Russia's hypocrisy…”

@@@ “To the Russians I know here in Warsaw, Chechens, Georgians, Ossetians and Abkhazians are all one and the same thing…”

@@@ “using Caucasian people to fight each other to Russia's political benefit, while the average Russian sits at home…”

In the context I can see no approval of what Russia is doing in NOHCHOISTAN ( i.e. CHECHNIA ) … and in Caucasus in general . But if you meant something else please forgive me for like most of the Russian I do not trust 3-4 nations with the Poles among them. Nothing but hatred and provocations comes here from Poland and it’s nothing but just an instinct of self keeping … Well maybe you are an exclusion from the tested rule …

@@@ “Ha ha, it was YOUR Stalin who gave us those lands in the first place, aside from STEALING our lands in the East!”

You look funny ! Stalin just returned the lands that 19 years before had belonged to us and were inhabited mostly by Russians which now prefer to be called as Belarus and Ukrainians. Yes there were some Polish villages in the suburbs of the Russian cities you have mentioned but those were Russian lands with Russian names and Russian population. So Stalin just returned what the Poles has stolen when in 1920 they stroke from the back to a wounded Russia devastated by 6 years of permanent wars … So in 1945 those lands were just a present. Another present was that “our Stalin” has added Poland to the Anti Hitler Coalition and thus saved you from the Nuernberg Process.

@@@ “Russia is not as strong as you say it is economically and hardly attractive to Poland…”

We are number two economic in Europe and number two in Asia but in the year 2009 we are expected to be N 1 in Europe so the things run not so bad. But what I really meant about selling yourselves was that thanks to the Russian successes you made a much better bargain over the missiles. Otherwise your Patrones cared little of what you begged them to give you instead. As you know PATRIOTS are helpless against the TOPOLS , the BULAVAS and the ISKANDERS … Wrong stake !

Serbia, Get REAL!! you think any one really cares if you recognisie Ossentians" or "Abkhazians Or not. Russia could not care less. Let me tell you whats going to happen, Ossentians" or "Abkhazians is going to be recognized by the western/US world. In return Russia will recognize Kosovo. AND Serbia will be left with its fingers in the mouth. It was the same in the 99 bombing , Russia did not stop it.
Cheers,
Joe NYC

Joe,

how come you fail to mention that in your scenario there is someone else together with serbia who would "be left with its fingers in the mouth", namely georgia? and don't be silly. neither usa nor russia have much to gain in such a trade-off.