"Serbia defends Kosovo, UN defends intl. order"

Good luck Sir! As for now I understand that of the 47 recognizing countries, barely half of them regret it more or less. They are waiting for ICJ outcome. It will not be binding but that does not matter a bit. It will be THE LAW. And who wants to go against the law (world order since 1945). Only gangsters and criminals do that. Many many country leaders envy Tadic and Jeremic stamina and "never give up spirit". Belive me I know! Im there every day.

I second that Diplomat A7 - well put! And good luck to Boris and Vuk!

Speaking as a (non Serbian) European I also see this as a majorly important issue for our nations. Time for international law to start meaning something once more.

Today's speech in UN is a signal for international community. It recalls Tzar Lazar's distant words from 1389 about "kom se carstvu prikloniti" and further Hamlet's "whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them". The UN audience has to decide in what future it wants to abide. For Serbia is very clear: whoever hated us, will go deeper with his hate; whoever took our side, will be more convinced in the righteousness of his attitude.
Zivela Srbija!

Good luck to Serbia this is how it should be, a democratic vote in the UN not who has the biggest guns (USA). IF the ICJ votes against Serbia that thats the green light to every ethnic minority in every country to have there ownn state. Its a disgrace that my goverment in the UK have recognised Kosovo independence while they strongly oppose Scotlands.

One can only wish Boris Tadic and Vuk Jeremic the very best of luck with this diplomatic initiative. Despite the ICJ rulings not being binding, they can have the most surprising effects. The first will be to halt further recognitions and after that ....let's just wait.

PS. I am going to Belgrade on Friday and I can't wait.

Generally jaw-jaw-jaw is better than war-war-war.

This is more a case of law-law-law is better than war-war-war.

The EU countries and the US talk of upholding the principle of law. They must not stand in the way of this matter coming to trial.

Martin and Blue and Gold,

Nice try in rewriting history and turning the victims into aggressors & vice versa.
'I think if a group of people are forcefully expelled and cleansed from their own land they surely deserve the right to be independent from the state that is controlling them.'

Yes I agree. Just look at what the albanians have done to the Serbs - put them behind barbed wire in ghettos, beat up grandmothers for speaking Serbian, Serbs needing military escorts just to do their grocery shopping, developed a xenophobic society where there is absolutely no human rights and no freedom of movement, burning and destruction of 150 Serbian monasteries and churches. Serbs are treated worse than animals in Kosovo. This is the truth and you know it. They have ethnically cleansed almost all Serbs from Kosovo with the help of the yanks, but we will never let them succeed with their 'greater albania' project. Kosovo is sovereign Serbian land, always has been, always will be, deal with it.

'But, speaking of int'l law: how come Serbia consistently claims coverage by int'l law over its Kosovo sovreginity claim, when this same law was repeatedly violated through the commission of unprecedented state-sponsored war crimes?'

Which war crimes are you referring to Martin? Operation Storm? This was US sponsored genocide, wiping out 500 years of history in one weekend. This was REAL genocide.
Oh, sorry, maybe you were referring to the 78 day around the clock illegal bombing of Serbian infrastructurre, including bombing of hospitals, bridges, cigarette factories, TV stations (those 'brave' pilots killed make-up women and janitors from 15,000 ft), power plants and countless other 'military targets' by the humanitarian bombers. This was a blatant war crime, clearly violating international law. Where is Clinton's and Holbrooke's trial?
Oh wait, maybe you were referring to the crimes of the mujaheddin fanatics in Bosnia who were beheading Serbian civilians, or to Nasir Oric's crimes - who actually bragged about the killing of over 3,000 Serbian civilians including women and children....Again, those islamic fanatics were armed and brought to Bosnia by the US braintrust of the time, mainly Albright and Holbrooke.

So yes, in a sense you are both correct. Serbs in Kosovo, Serbs in Croatia, Serbs in Bosnia, should be free from the people who have committed such crimes against them, not just recently but during their support for the Nazis in WWII as well as throughout history. History just seems to repeat itself, as all Serbian enemies today are the very same as the during WWII - Croats, Bosnian Muslims, and albanians all supported the Nazis, fact. Serbs have always been a people who were free and independent, and that is why the new colonialists of the EU and the US are trying to destroy them. It is not only not working, but it is backfiring. The former colonized nations of the world, and all freedom loving nations in fact, are waking up, and supporting Serbia! It is great to see, and it is great to see the US, UK, and the rest of their minions looking like total hypocrites, liars, and more and more isolated.
Serbia will lead the world in this fight, and justice will prevail over force! We Serbs relish being in this position :))
Cheers!!

well i've read the other reactions and now i have a right to add mine, short and (not so) sweet:

#1 Tadic and the belgrade regime speaking with reverence about international law?! it is amazing that the floor didn't open up right from under his feet and swallow him, whole cloth, for such ethical audacity..

#2 perhaps it doesn't occur to anyone else in the whole world but me: serbia has STILL NOT accepted the break-up of Yugoslavia, to this day! or shall i say serboslavia. i am not talking about fringe radicals -- i mean mainstream serbia. it is still fighting the legality of the break-up, even as the break-up is as obvious to the rest of the world as can be. but tadic, you will never put humpty dumpty together again, not even if you manage to resurrect poor, dead tito, and place him back on the throne, like some ancient byzantine emperor. with all due respect, of course.

so, i listened to the others, now it is my turn.

thank you :)

robert-0
(roberto, 24 September 2008 06:50)

What an ill-conceived post full of hatred for everything Serb and Serbia. It might as well have been wriiten by a Nazi, or rabid Croat/Bosniak/Albanian nationalist.

Roberto, there was nothing legal about the 'legality of the break-up' of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was ripped apart in a horrible and underhand way by internal and external forces who were intent on seeing it dissolve as the presense of a unitary, socialist & secular state threatened the West's/NATO's geo-political interests, ie expansion into E Europe and the Balkans.

Yugoslavia was destroyed in contravention of international law, the Helsinki Agreement of 1975 which 1) upholds the right of state to exist and 2) exercise its territorial integrity and sovereignty over its territory. Now Roberto, can you tell me where was the 'legality' in that. Where was the 'legality' in Operation Storm, the NATO bombing of YU. Answer, None. So please spare your blatant Serbophobia and sanctimonious & patronising BS.

And here's a little tit-bit for your Roberto. The last army to dismantle Yugoslavia and hand Kosmet over to the Albanian nationalists was... yep you guessed it, Nazi Germany, and you're a Jew. Unbelievable.

Before I go Roberto. I watched Tadic's speech in the UN and the hair stood up on the back of my neck. Do you know why, because the man has more spirit, courage and integrity than you or any sham Western politician have in their entire bodies.

Bravo Jeremic, bravo Tadic. Take the good fight to the highest court in the land. Justice will finally be done and all the wrongs committed against the Serbian and loyal Yugoslav people will be righted.

I mean what's the point? You have to be a fool to think the outcome of ICJ will change anything in reality.

This is just dragging everyone but funny side since February its been that serbs are the most who are suffering.

Give UP recogonise after this, and lets move on.

Many of the countries that are nowadays sovereign 'appeared' on the world's political map long before there was any 'international law' or even the UN. So to suggest that Kosovo's independence cannot be legitimiate given UN objections (which are only partly so) is to take a naive interpretation of how international relations function. Int'l law is an array of interests (simplistically said, of course) which, when there's no convergence, it is 'violated' repeatedly.

Kosovo's claim to statehood, amongst many valid claims, should be primarily anchored on the 'moral argument' of widespread state-sponsored killings which made Serbia's continued claim to sovereignity over Kosovo an untenable position. Note that the US's declaration of independence, long before there was any modern-day int'l law or an int'l org like the UN was based primarily on the idea of UK's colonial, repressive policy.

But, speaking of int'l law: how come Serbia consistently claims coverage by int'l law over its Kosovo sovreginity claim, when this same law was repeatedly violated through the commission of unprecedented state-sponsored war crimes? What part of int'l law sanctions this kind of behavior?

Mr.Tadic, issue of war corpses and missing people is international issue regulated by international laws. UNGA is the right place you can give explanation for 425 corpses which are sent from Belgrade to Kosovo, but they can not be identified in Kosovo. ADN results of these corpses are not fiting with ADN examples given by relatives of more than 2000 still missing persons in Kosovo.
These mistakes can happen having in mind that Belgrade have to manage with corpses and missing people from all ex-Yu. Who knows if these 425 corpses are Bosniac, Croat, Montenegrin or Serbian from BiH, Croatia, legionaries from different countries,...
Mr.Tadic, it is difficult to protect international law when it is sistematically broken from your country for more than 20 years. It is much more human to ask foregiveness and start sincere reconsiliation between Serbia in one side and Kosovo, BiH, Croatia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Slovenia in other side, isn't it?!

"Kosovo's ethnic Albanian leaders chose to take this unilateral step after walking away from the negotiating table," he continued."

An absolute BIG lie! Does Tadic really think that the international community is that foolish to accept the Serbia's argument. Especially the the Serbia's argument about the importance of Kosova to the Serbia nations))) It is all about Greater Serbia and Serbia expansion. Fortunately of unfortunately for Serbia the historical FACTS ARE NOT ON THE SERBIA'S SIDE. I am not talking about those "facts" or myths created by the Serbian church.
By the way President Ahtisari spent a lot of time with Serbs and the Albanians to come to compromise but for argument sake when it comes to sovereignity there would never have been an agreement. Let's be REAL.

We all agree that the status quo was untenable! A solution through UNSC was not possible because of a Russia's threat to veto. Serbia's understanding of SC means Russia's veto. The FACT THAT the most powerful countries on earth like USA, UK, FRANCE, ITALY, GERMANY think YES to Kosova's independence means nothing to Serbia. That is the problem. Holding hostage the development and progress of Kosova only because RUSSIA'S threat of veto is not right by any standard other than Serbia's standard.
Tadic "forget" to mentioned the ethnic cleansing committed by the Serbian state in Kosova. The world knows that fact very well even if Tadic or Jeremic try to hide it. If a country discriminate/opress its "own" people risk losing this people and the territory. Kosova is the classic example and a lesson for all the dictatorships in the world.

“And who wants to go against the law (world order since 1945). Only gangsters and criminals do that.” (Diplomat A7, 23 September 2008 12:41)
So you mean that Israel, who has refused the ICJ ruling on the wall separating them from Palestine, is also a group of gangsters and criminals?! I doubt that.

The point is that the world very well knows what Serbia did in the 90ties and to expect Kosovo to be part of Serbia after that is not comprehendible. I think if a group of people are forcefully expelled and cleansed from their own land they surely deserve the right to be independent from the state that is controlling them. It’s a moral, democratic thing to do so, and it has nothing to do with UN law which defends states who can do whatever they want to their minorities and not allow true freedom for them. I hope Kosovo is a lesion to all those sovereign states that mistreat their own citizens.

Why should Kosovo be part of Serbia when all that Serbia wants is the land of Kosovo and not Albanians themselves?!

Yes, Tadic pushed all the right buttons, made the right noises. Now as we say in Serbian we are at peace. You can only make the best of a difficult situation.

Roberto you seem to be getting more extreme by the day - what is going on with you?

The Belgrade 'regime' (as Serb radicals call it), was elected democratically is actually a government.

What exactly has Tadic done to contravene international law that has you so offended?

Belgrade has not accepted the break up of Yugoslavia. Well, thats strange, considering that Belgrade has recongised Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Macedonia and Montenegro. That is the usual way to measure isn't it?

Now, if we are to generalise about people then let me add mine. If Tito is popular anywhere in former Yugoslavia it is in Bosnia. Does that mean that Bosnians are to blame for Tito's crimes, or does it mean that some Bosnians (or others) believe fundamentally that Serbs, Croats and Bosnians are the same people?

For somebody who seems to like to consider himself a supporter of peace you sound much too radical for my taste.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the Albanians on this issue. The world knows that the Kosovo events are illegal, however, has that stopped the US from stealing a sovereign country's territory? The court will just confirm the illegality of the US action. Will it chage anything? I do not think so. Tadic knows this fully well, he is just going through the motions. Short of military intervention, Kosovo is lost for good.

It's interesting to read Albanian comment here. They seem more than happy to be branded thiefs which is exactly what they will be branded once ICJ ruling comes in.

It doesn't bother them one bit to take something illegally and then flaunt it. The fact that they have 47 countries supporting them in this is irrelevant. A bully usually has a few heavies in his corner when he is stealing lunch money. It doesn't make it legal or moral.

Well, if we are going to have the law on the jungle then don't whinge about everyone else going for what they can get as well.

Good luck RS on your way to independence. Looks like the only way to fight fire is with fire. You cannot fight criminals who don't play by the rules with rules. Sometimes you have to break a vew yourself to hold onto what is yours.
All of you who label Russia as hypocritical should stop as all that matters now is who threw the first punch. It's clear that the US did and should not expect Russia or Serbia to sit back and not throw a few their way.

It could take years...if not a decade for a verdict.

Serbs are fooled once again.

As far as I'm concerned, his speech to the GA nailed it. He kept it professional, and broad-based enough to make it an international matter, not a squabble between Serbs and Albanians. He kept referencing the legality of the UN and the respect for international law. As far as I know, and I'm only reading what I read here, he mentioned no nationalist rhetoric, and didn't step into historical memory beyond saying that Kosovo was a part of Serbia's territory.

It's in the fate of the GA now, but I have faith it will be voted on to move to ICJ deliberations.

Well done, Tadic.
Well done, Jeremic.

God, this article is a long. I dare anyone to read till the end.
Interesting points nonetheless.
Most striking I thought were Serbia’s evocation of non-alignment movement and her contribution to human rights regime.

well i've read the other reactions and now i have a right to add mine, short and (not so) sweet:

#1 Tadic and the belgrade regime speaking with reverence about international law?! it is amazing that the floor didn't open up right from under his feet and swallow him, whole cloth, for such ethical audacity..

#2 perhaps it doesn't occur to anyone else in the whole world but me: serbia has STILL NOT accepted the break-up of Yugoslavia, to this day! or shall i say serboslavia. i am not talking about fringe radicals -- i mean mainstream serbia. it is still fighting the legality of the break-up, even as the break-up is as obvious to the rest of the world as can be. but tadic, you will never put humpty dumpty together again, not even if you manage to resurrect poor, dead tito, and place him back on the throne, like some ancient byzantine emperor. with all due respect, of course.

so, i listened to the others, now it is my turn.

thank you :)

robert-0

Niall, this guy who calls himself Roberto is an Albanian, didn´t you realize it by now?

WHO else would try so eagerly to express his hatred here?

don´t take them too seriously, since they will be isolated in the future, by their own fellow-k-albanians.

A very interesting speech. No mention at all why the Albanians want to be free of Serbia. No mention at all of the decade-long war and suffering which brought about the death of Yugoslavia and of hundreds and thousands of its citizens. No mention of the right of a people to live without fear and hope.

The core of the argument here is what counts more, the right to life or the right to territorial integrity. If there is no life, territorial integrity is meaningless. That was the reason why NATO intervened in Kosovo. This is the argument the Albanians are putting to the UN and the world is listening.

The story of Kosovo being a Serbian cradle is nothing else but the serbian version of the history, with the advantage of being the first version of the history to be told and published, thanks to the fact that serbs enjoyed an earlier statehood, and thus the means (institutions) to write Kosovo's history first as they pleased and to be the first to internationalize their romanticism upon this region based on extreme nationalism, and religious alliances.

My point here is to tell you that Kosovo has never been considered Serbian, without abiguity from the international community, that's why I brought here a few examples. My point also was to say that the Serbian state has never been wise and shown any prudence in dealing with Albanians in Kosovo. I mean come on, the Jashari family was slaughtered in daylight with almost 2 dozens of other family members, mostly women and children. How can this state claim any right to rule these people.
(Martin, 25 September 2008 06:51)

Martin,

The fact that there are hundreds of Serbian Holy sites in Kosovo (many dating back to early medieval period long before any Albanian presense), plus the fact that the head of the Serbian Orthodox Church resides there seems to have escaped your selective comments. Kosovo, the very name which is Serbian by the way and many of its placenames are Serbian also seems to escape you.

What does this tell us. Simply it testifies to the essential Serb heritage of Kosovo and the fact that there are no records of any Albanian presense in the era prior to the late 17th century tells that us like the Ulster Protestants, K-Albanians are not natives to Kosovo.

I'm not a Serb (I'm Irish btw) nor a Serb nationalist but I still know of the unique Serbian cultural heritage of Kosovo i Methojia and its significance in the Serbian conscienceness. Until you and your kind comprehend this Martin, there will never be any lasting peace in this troublesome land.

Dragan, Albanians, and Bosnians, and Croats, sided with Germany in WWII, but maybe you should ask yourself, why? Why did all these nations, many of which are slavic and have same blood and speak same language, were so anti-Serbian? Maybe they always considered Serbia the greatest threat to them.

Maybe you should do some reading on the serbian chief academic in the 1930s Vasa Cubrilovic and read his "masterpieces" called "The expulsion of the Albanians", or the other one "For a homogeneous Serbia". Maybe you should take a look at the truckloads of corpses of the Albanians found even inside Serbia, not too long ago. These are crimes executed by a regular army, and a formal state we are talking about here, not by some guerilla group.

Do not forget, that Albanians did not bomb Belgrade like Serbs in Croatia did when they bombed Zagreb. Do not forget that Albanians (90% of serbs consider them as savages, and now you want to live together hmm) tried peacefully for 10 years, when everyone else was fighting with Serbs to the death. Serbia never learned how to integrate this population in its state. It was Tito who forced them to "forget" Kosovo for a while.

In the end you send your army to burn, kill, and destroy everything in Kosovo, displacing almost half of its population, violating every aspect of international law, and yet you ask for its protection. The world must be stupid to reward this behaviour. How many wars and masacres should these people endure, so you understand that they can't afford to take a chance living under a serbian state.

Kosovo was awarded to Serbia among many controversies. When Kosovo was awarded to Serbia in 1913, there were 2 plans to be considered, one of which, backed among the others by Italy and Autro-Hungary awarded most of Kosovo to Albania. But Albania was weaker at the time and Serbia got the reward.

Martin, what kind of nonsense are you writing here?

Kosovo a reward for Serbia?

don´t you know that Kosovo is serbian, from the earliest times of todays europe, in the migration period?

how can you write such a naive propaganda about Serbia getting Kosovo as a reward, when it was the serbian state who liberated it´s southern province from the ottoman yoke?

Martin wrote,

Dragan, Albanians, and Bosnians, and Croats, sided with Germany in WWII, but maybe you should ask yourself, why? Why did all these nations, many of which are slavic and have same blood and speak same language, were so anti-Serbian? Maybe they always considered Serbia the greatest threat to them.

Are you for real? Nazi Germany was against the world not just Serbs, so this makes your idols enemies of the world too.
Are you seriously trying to say that there was nothing wrong with joining the Nazis if eliminating Serbia was the goal?

You do have serious issues here. Your obvious hatred for Serbs, therefore supporting what Nazis supporters have done has just discredited you.

bravo Niall, being irish, you are showing more understanding than most of our dear k-albanian friends here!

of course you are completely right, the serbian character of the southern serbian province is indelible.
the remark about the toponyms is just one of the arguments against their illegal activities...the Albanians do not even have an own name for our province!
it is serbian, it always was -
some are ignoring or denying it, for obvious reasons, but that only shows their weakness.

truth, moral and justice will prevail, Serbia will prevail!

what a waist of time ..really get a way for your people in serbia and try to lead them in the right direction ,and you call your self a democratic !?really what a joke if people really believe that!!

--"History just seems to repeat itself, as all Serbian enemies today are the very same as the during WWII - Croats, Bosnian Muslims, and albanians all supported the Nazis, fact."

So did the Serbs: Nedic, Pecenac etc etc etc.

"What exactly has Tadic done to contravene international law that has you so offended?"

bgnanon, Tadic is speaking on behalf of Serbia not as the father of his children. And Serbia has contravened and violated Int Law in numerous occasions. That is the point.

Kosovo being or not a precedent for other places in the world has nothing to do with the legality of the action. A respectable court should take into account only the facts, its decision should be based on law, not future imaginary scenarios, i.e. not on politics.
This proposal will pass in the UN, because, it is the right of every country to ask for the opinion of the ICJ, the general assembly will not forbid that a priori, how would they justify their decision?
The real thing comes later, and I am not so sure that Serbia will win at the ICJ after all. The Kosovo government should have a chance to "defend" its decision, to present to the ICJ the facts and interpretations that Serbia will not present.

Diplomat A7, first post, since you are there every day, could you please give us more interesting news? I have nothing against "the whole world admires Serbia", but more spicy details would really be appreciated on this forum I think. For example do they have a cafeteria where they all eat at the UN? Or does everybody take his own food from home? Who seats with whom, do they form groups? thanks :).

"Jovan, please we can go on with this forever."

>>no, Martin, WE will go on until WE succeed.

"However, why did Autro-Hungary and Italy and other states supported the plan which included Kosovo in the Albanian state in 1913?"

>>if your question was a serious one, then I doubt that you can be helped! but I will answer for all those who have eventually asked themselves the same question before...,

because of the same reasons as today: because by supporting the Albanians they are trying to destabilize the region, and at the same time to weaken Serbia and Serbia´s influence in the region. the motives do not change, only the aggressors do.

and with doing so, they have managed it to install their military bases and armies on our soil. it´s that easy. it´s an old tactic called "divide et impera"...



"Why did Germany and France remain neutral to Serbian claim over Kosovo? Why did Ottomans considered Kosovo vilyaet an Albanian one."

>> same answer as above, please just read again.

"I thought the heart of the Serbian state was the old Rasca?"
>> for an Albanian, you are pretty bad informed, my dear.

"Further, even the JCP approved the right of self-determination of Kosovo twice before WWII in it's Congresses, and once again in Bojan conference in 1945, in a deal with Albanian CP."

>> no political party has the right to give away serbian soil, and certainly not the JCP. so that´s really not an argument, wouldn´t you agree?

"Of course albanians are to blame from an historical prespective, because they essentially gave away their ancient christian culture when they converted to islam, however not their autocthony."

>> that´s a question of Serbs rather fought the invaders, Albanians chose to be submissive, but you cannot blame todays Albanians for the mistakes of their ancestors.
BUT you can blame them for ignoring the historical truth, for denying that they have no connection to the illyrians, what they so desperately wish to emphasize in an ineffectual attempt to justify their claims on serbian territory.

"The story of Kosovo being a Serbian cradle is nothing else but the serbian version of the history"
>> I am afraid, you don´t know what you are talking about.
it is generally recognized history, not any allegedly serbian-colored "version", you should read some real history books, not these albanian phantasies that are sold at liquor-stores...

" serbs enjoyed an earlier statehood, and thus the means (institutions) to write Kosovo's history first as they pleased and to be the first to internationalize their romanticism upon this region based on extreme nationalism, and religious alliances."

>>wait a minute, weren´t the Albanians there for thousands of years before the Serbs? how come that the Serbs enjoyed statehood so much earlier?



"My point here is to tell you that Kosovo has never been considered Serbian, without abiguity from the international community, that's why I brought here a few examples."

>>your point failed, my dear friend. and your "examples" lack the basic need of any argument.

"My point also was to say that the Serbian state has never been wise and shown any prudence in dealing with Albanians in Kosovo."

given that there were greater-albanian phantasies amongst you back then from the socalled "Prizren League" which literally invented this ideology, the serbian state has more or less wisely surpressed these activities.

" I mean come on, the Jashari family was slaughtered in daylight with almost 2 dozens of other family members, mostly women and children."

>> nice "example" my friend, you certainly know that the Jashari-clan was one of the leading terrorist-supporters and even perpetrators, and they did not bring their children and women into safety, but chose to use their own children as human shields, and many of the "independence"-illusionists even believe them to be hero´s!

"How can this state claim any right to rule these people.
(Martin, 25 September 2008 "

>> Martin, we could go on and on, yes, and I think you still do not get it, it seems.

Serbia does not intend to rule them, since they are planned to rule themselves in the widest possible meaning of that word.
if you haven´t realized it yet, google the meaning of "substantial autonomy".

so, there can not be any doubt about the fact, that you on the one hand do not know the basic facts in regard to the Kosovo-issue and on the other hand are fearing something that isn´t intended at all.

WHAT you are not allowed is to establish a statelet on serbian sovereign territory.

there is a difference, and I am convinced that sooner or later the K-albanians will realize that difference.

just a question of time.

there is still, up to the present day no proof for the often reiterated albanian claim of being the descendants of the Illyrians.
even in the late 80´s there was an US-american team of historians and archeologists in southern Serbia and did a lot of digging, research etc.

and they came to the conclusion that the illyrian theory of the illyrian descent is simply an invention of the socalled albanian romanticism.

and one more thing: don´t blame the Serbs for being non-existent so long, ...you simply have not "been there" and did not have any cultural or political influence... and there is a simple reason for it: you´ve not been there.

even from the Ottoman times there there is some data preserved in regard to polulation census, and it clearly marks the Albanians as a small minority in a totally serbian Kosovo... so, if you do not believe the Serbs, ...if you do not believe modern sience of history, you may perhaps believe the Ottomans... or maybe you think that even the Ottoman´s are part of a big serbian conspiracy! who knows,...

once again, my dear, I´d ask you to stick to the facts, since you are eagerly writing of "killing people en-masse"...

after the UN has investigated the data, they came to the conclusion that some 3000 persons were killed in the conflict between Albanians and Serbs. 3000, both sides included!

but... you will perhaps come up with the legend of 10.000 casualties only on the albanian side, right?

last but not least, if you are gonna bring up some foreign source, how about parAprhasing correctly?

Jovan, please we can go on with this forever. However, why did Autro-Hungary and Italy and other states supported the plan which included Kosovo in the Albanian state in 1913? Why did Germany and France remain neutral to Serbian claim over Kosovo? Why did Ottomans considered Kosovo vilyaet an Albanian one. I thought the heart of the Serbian state was the old Rasca? Further, even the JCP approved the right of self-determination of Kosovo twice before WWII in it's Congresses, and once again in Bojan conference in 1945, in a deal with Albanian CP.

Of course albanians are to blame from an historical prespective, because they essentially gave away their ancient christian culture when they converted to islam, however not their autocthony.

The story of Kosovo being a Serbian cradle is nothing else but the serbian version of the history, with the advantage of being the first version of the history to be told and published, thanks to the fact that serbs enjoyed an earlier statehood, and thus the means (institutions) to write Kosovo's history first as they pleased and to be the first to internationalize their romanticism upon this region based on extreme nationalism, and religious alliances.

My point here is to tell you that Kosovo has never been considered Serbian, without abiguity from the international community, that's why I brought here a few examples. My point also was to say that the Serbian state has never been wise and shown any prudence in dealing with Albanians in Kosovo. I mean come on, the Jashari family was slaughtered in daylight with almost 2 dozens of other family members, mostly women and children. How can this state claim any right to rule these people.

Jovan, the name of Kosovo is simply a result of the superiority of slavic presence in the region. There are regions in southern Albania, by the greek border (far from Macedonia), with slavic names, and orthodox churches, considered the birthplace of the albanian renaissance, does it mean that southern Albania is a sacred Serbian land? Yet if you look at the names of the small areas, or rivers, or mountains, etc they have albanian names.

There was an Albanian name of the province, called Dardania, just like there was an Ilyrian tribe called Albanoi, and a major city called Albanapolis in todays middle Albania, way before slavic migration. I know you dont believe the albanians decend from Ilirians, but you have yet to prove when and how did they move to the region, since there are no records whatsoever of their migration, like there are records of the migrations of the slavs. You have to prove that the Caucasian "albanians" have anything in common with Balkan albanians, such as language, tradition, dress codes etc.

So the fact that Kosovo is a Serbian stronghold because it has a serbian name and serbian churches does not prove anything, but the superiority of slavic culture in the region, but in no way proves that albanians did not exist in Kosovo. In anyway, your romantic theory of Kosovo being a serbian sacred region, does not give you the right to kill en-masse a people.

As parifrased in the US Declaration of Independence "...when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security".

Well show me a minority in any country in the world who gets 3000 (let's use your number, since you think 3000 dead are not significant) of its people slaughtered by the central gov. which would want to live within that state. Oh, I forgot Jashari used his children and women as a shield, which you didn't hesitate kill, what a terrorist he was.

Yes Albanians did not have a cultural dominance in the region 1200 years ago, well now they do, and you don't, and maybe you should not blame albanians for being "non-existent". What are you going to do, cry them a river?

And by the way, great argument about the "US-american?"(great wording) expedition" in the late 80 which did some study, and proved albanians wrong. Now these are indeed solid facts, and albanias should kill themlsevles in shame....

I mean what's the point? You have to be a fool to think the outcome of ICJ will change anything in reality.

This is just dragging everyone but funny side since February its been that serbs are the most who are suffering.

Give UP recogonise after this, and lets move on.

"Kosovo's ethnic Albanian leaders chose to take this unilateral step after walking away from the negotiating table," he continued."

An absolute BIG lie! Does Tadic really think that the international community is that foolish to accept the Serbia's argument. Especially the the Serbia's argument about the importance of Kosova to the Serbia nations))) It is all about Greater Serbia and Serbia expansion. Fortunately of unfortunately for Serbia the historical FACTS ARE NOT ON THE SERBIA'S SIDE. I am not talking about those "facts" or myths created by the Serbian church.
By the way President Ahtisari spent a lot of time with Serbs and the Albanians to come to compromise but for argument sake when it comes to sovereignity there would never have been an agreement. Let's be REAL.

We all agree that the status quo was untenable! A solution through UNSC was not possible because of a Russia's threat to veto. Serbia's understanding of SC means Russia's veto. The FACT THAT the most powerful countries on earth like USA, UK, FRANCE, ITALY, GERMANY think YES to Kosova's independence means nothing to Serbia. That is the problem. Holding hostage the development and progress of Kosova only because RUSSIA'S threat of veto is not right by any standard other than Serbia's standard.
Tadic "forget" to mentioned the ethnic cleansing committed by the Serbian state in Kosova. The world knows that fact very well even if Tadic or Jeremic try to hide it. If a country discriminate/opress its "own" people risk losing this people and the territory. Kosova is the classic example and a lesson for all the dictatorships in the world.

“And who wants to go against the law (world order since 1945). Only gangsters and criminals do that.” (Diplomat A7, 23 September 2008 12:41)
So you mean that Israel, who has refused the ICJ ruling on the wall separating them from Palestine, is also a group of gangsters and criminals?! I doubt that.

The point is that the world very well knows what Serbia did in the 90ties and to expect Kosovo to be part of Serbia after that is not comprehendible. I think if a group of people are forcefully expelled and cleansed from their own land they surely deserve the right to be independent from the state that is controlling them. It’s a moral, democratic thing to do so, and it has nothing to do with UN law which defends states who can do whatever they want to their minorities and not allow true freedom for them. I hope Kosovo is a lesion to all those sovereign states that mistreat their own citizens.

Why should Kosovo be part of Serbia when all that Serbia wants is the land of Kosovo and not Albanians themselves?!

It could take years...if not a decade for a verdict.

Serbs are fooled once again.

Many of the countries that are nowadays sovereign 'appeared' on the world's political map long before there was any 'international law' or even the UN. So to suggest that Kosovo's independence cannot be legitimiate given UN objections (which are only partly so) is to take a naive interpretation of how international relations function. Int'l law is an array of interests (simplistically said, of course) which, when there's no convergence, it is 'violated' repeatedly.

Kosovo's claim to statehood, amongst many valid claims, should be primarily anchored on the 'moral argument' of widespread state-sponsored killings which made Serbia's continued claim to sovereignity over Kosovo an untenable position. Note that the US's declaration of independence, long before there was any modern-day int'l law or an int'l org like the UN was based primarily on the idea of UK's colonial, repressive policy.

But, speaking of int'l law: how come Serbia consistently claims coverage by int'l law over its Kosovo sovreginity claim, when this same law was repeatedly violated through the commission of unprecedented state-sponsored war crimes? What part of int'l law sanctions this kind of behavior?

well i've read the other reactions and now i have a right to add mine, short and (not so) sweet:

#1 Tadic and the belgrade regime speaking with reverence about international law?! it is amazing that the floor didn't open up right from under his feet and swallow him, whole cloth, for such ethical audacity..

#2 perhaps it doesn't occur to anyone else in the whole world but me: serbia has STILL NOT accepted the break-up of Yugoslavia, to this day! or shall i say serboslavia. i am not talking about fringe radicals -- i mean mainstream serbia. it is still fighting the legality of the break-up, even as the break-up is as obvious to the rest of the world as can be. but tadic, you will never put humpty dumpty together again, not even if you manage to resurrect poor, dead tito, and place him back on the throne, like some ancient byzantine emperor. with all due respect, of course.

so, i listened to the others, now it is my turn.

thank you :)

robert-0

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the Albanians on this issue. The world knows that the Kosovo events are illegal, however, has that stopped the US from stealing a sovereign country's territory? The court will just confirm the illegality of the US action. Will it chage anything? I do not think so. Tadic knows this fully well, he is just going through the motions. Short of military intervention, Kosovo is lost for good.

Mr.Tadic, issue of war corpses and missing people is international issue regulated by international laws. UNGA is the right place you can give explanation for 425 corpses which are sent from Belgrade to Kosovo, but they can not be identified in Kosovo. ADN results of these corpses are not fiting with ADN examples given by relatives of more than 2000 still missing persons in Kosovo.
These mistakes can happen having in mind that Belgrade have to manage with corpses and missing people from all ex-Yu. Who knows if these 425 corpses are Bosniac, Croat, Montenegrin or Serbian from BiH, Croatia, legionaries from different countries,...
Mr.Tadic, it is difficult to protect international law when it is sistematically broken from your country for more than 20 years. It is much more human to ask foregiveness and start sincere reconsiliation between Serbia in one side and Kosovo, BiH, Croatia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Slovenia in other side, isn't it?!

what a waist of time ..really get a way for your people in serbia and try to lead them in the right direction ,and you call your self a democratic !?really what a joke if people really believe that!!

--"History just seems to repeat itself, as all Serbian enemies today are the very same as the during WWII - Croats, Bosnian Muslims, and albanians all supported the Nazis, fact."

So did the Serbs: Nedic, Pecenac etc etc etc.

Good luck Sir! As for now I understand that of the 47 recognizing countries, barely half of them regret it more or less. They are waiting for ICJ outcome. It will not be binding but that does not matter a bit. It will be THE LAW. And who wants to go against the law (world order since 1945). Only gangsters and criminals do that. Many many country leaders envy Tadic and Jeremic stamina and "never give up spirit". Belive me I know! Im there every day.

Today's speech in UN is a signal for international community. It recalls Tzar Lazar's distant words from 1389 about "kom se carstvu prikloniti" and further Hamlet's "whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them". The UN audience has to decide in what future it wants to abide. For Serbia is very clear: whoever hated us, will go deeper with his hate; whoever took our side, will be more convinced in the righteousness of his attitude.
Zivela Srbija!

God, this article is a long. I dare anyone to read till the end.
Interesting points nonetheless.
Most striking I thought were Serbia’s evocation of non-alignment movement and her contribution to human rights regime.

"What exactly has Tadic done to contravene international law that has you so offended?"

bgnanon, Tadic is speaking on behalf of Serbia not as the father of his children. And Serbia has contravened and violated Int Law in numerous occasions. That is the point.

Dragan, Albanians, and Bosnians, and Croats, sided with Germany in WWII, but maybe you should ask yourself, why? Why did all these nations, many of which are slavic and have same blood and speak same language, were so anti-Serbian? Maybe they always considered Serbia the greatest threat to them.

Maybe you should do some reading on the serbian chief academic in the 1930s Vasa Cubrilovic and read his "masterpieces" called "The expulsion of the Albanians", or the other one "For a homogeneous Serbia". Maybe you should take a look at the truckloads of corpses of the Albanians found even inside Serbia, not too long ago. These are crimes executed by a regular army, and a formal state we are talking about here, not by some guerilla group.

Do not forget, that Albanians did not bomb Belgrade like Serbs in Croatia did when they bombed Zagreb. Do not forget that Albanians (90% of serbs consider them as savages, and now you want to live together hmm) tried peacefully for 10 years, when everyone else was fighting with Serbs to the death. Serbia never learned how to integrate this population in its state. It was Tito who forced them to "forget" Kosovo for a while.

In the end you send your army to burn, kill, and destroy everything in Kosovo, displacing almost half of its population, violating every aspect of international law, and yet you ask for its protection. The world must be stupid to reward this behaviour. How many wars and masacres should these people endure, so you understand that they can't afford to take a chance living under a serbian state.

Kosovo was awarded to Serbia among many controversies. When Kosovo was awarded to Serbia in 1913, there were 2 plans to be considered, one of which, backed among the others by Italy and Autro-Hungary awarded most of Kosovo to Albania. But Albania was weaker at the time and Serbia got the reward.

I second that Diplomat A7 - well put! And good luck to Boris and Vuk!

Speaking as a (non Serbian) European I also see this as a majorly important issue for our nations. Time for international law to start meaning something once more.

Kosovo being or not a precedent for other places in the world has nothing to do with the legality of the action. A respectable court should take into account only the facts, its decision should be based on law, not future imaginary scenarios, i.e. not on politics.
This proposal will pass in the UN, because, it is the right of every country to ask for the opinion of the ICJ, the general assembly will not forbid that a priori, how would they justify their decision?
The real thing comes later, and I am not so sure that Serbia will win at the ICJ after all. The Kosovo government should have a chance to "defend" its decision, to present to the ICJ the facts and interpretations that Serbia will not present.

Diplomat A7, first post, since you are there every day, could you please give us more interesting news? I have nothing against "the whole world admires Serbia", but more spicy details would really be appreciated on this forum I think. For example do they have a cafeteria where they all eat at the UN? Or does everybody take his own food from home? Who seats with whom, do they form groups? thanks :).

Good luck to Serbia this is how it should be, a democratic vote in the UN not who has the biggest guns (USA). IF the ICJ votes against Serbia that thats the green light to every ethnic minority in every country to have there ownn state. Its a disgrace that my goverment in the UK have recognised Kosovo independence while they strongly oppose Scotlands.

One can only wish Boris Tadic and Vuk Jeremic the very best of luck with this diplomatic initiative. Despite the ICJ rulings not being binding, they can have the most surprising effects. The first will be to halt further recognitions and after that ....let's just wait.

PS. I am going to Belgrade on Friday and I can't wait.

As far as I'm concerned, his speech to the GA nailed it. He kept it professional, and broad-based enough to make it an international matter, not a squabble between Serbs and Albanians. He kept referencing the legality of the UN and the respect for international law. As far as I know, and I'm only reading what I read here, he mentioned no nationalist rhetoric, and didn't step into historical memory beyond saying that Kosovo was a part of Serbia's territory.

It's in the fate of the GA now, but I have faith it will be voted on to move to ICJ deliberations.

Well done, Tadic.
Well done, Jeremic.

Jovan, please we can go on with this forever. However, why did Autro-Hungary and Italy and other states supported the plan which included Kosovo in the Albanian state in 1913? Why did Germany and France remain neutral to Serbian claim over Kosovo? Why did Ottomans considered Kosovo vilyaet an Albanian one. I thought the heart of the Serbian state was the old Rasca? Further, even the JCP approved the right of self-determination of Kosovo twice before WWII in it's Congresses, and once again in Bojan conference in 1945, in a deal with Albanian CP.

Of course albanians are to blame from an historical prespective, because they essentially gave away their ancient christian culture when they converted to islam, however not their autocthony.

The story of Kosovo being a Serbian cradle is nothing else but the serbian version of the history, with the advantage of being the first version of the history to be told and published, thanks to the fact that serbs enjoyed an earlier statehood, and thus the means (institutions) to write Kosovo's history first as they pleased and to be the first to internationalize their romanticism upon this region based on extreme nationalism, and religious alliances.

My point here is to tell you that Kosovo has never been considered Serbian, without abiguity from the international community, that's why I brought here a few examples. My point also was to say that the Serbian state has never been wise and shown any prudence in dealing with Albanians in Kosovo. I mean come on, the Jashari family was slaughtered in daylight with almost 2 dozens of other family members, mostly women and children. How can this state claim any right to rule these people.

Martin and Blue and Gold,

Nice try in rewriting history and turning the victims into aggressors & vice versa.
'I think if a group of people are forcefully expelled and cleansed from their own land they surely deserve the right to be independent from the state that is controlling them.'

Yes I agree. Just look at what the albanians have done to the Serbs - put them behind barbed wire in ghettos, beat up grandmothers for speaking Serbian, Serbs needing military escorts just to do their grocery shopping, developed a xenophobic society where there is absolutely no human rights and no freedom of movement, burning and destruction of 150 Serbian monasteries and churches. Serbs are treated worse than animals in Kosovo. This is the truth and you know it. They have ethnically cleansed almost all Serbs from Kosovo with the help of the yanks, but we will never let them succeed with their 'greater albania' project. Kosovo is sovereign Serbian land, always has been, always will be, deal with it.

'But, speaking of int'l law: how come Serbia consistently claims coverage by int'l law over its Kosovo sovreginity claim, when this same law was repeatedly violated through the commission of unprecedented state-sponsored war crimes?'

Which war crimes are you referring to Martin? Operation Storm? This was US sponsored genocide, wiping out 500 years of history in one weekend. This was REAL genocide.
Oh, sorry, maybe you were referring to the 78 day around the clock illegal bombing of Serbian infrastructurre, including bombing of hospitals, bridges, cigarette factories, TV stations (those 'brave' pilots killed make-up women and janitors from 15,000 ft), power plants and countless other 'military targets' by the humanitarian bombers. This was a blatant war crime, clearly violating international law. Where is Clinton's and Holbrooke's trial?
Oh wait, maybe you were referring to the crimes of the mujaheddin fanatics in Bosnia who were beheading Serbian civilians, or to Nasir Oric's crimes - who actually bragged about the killing of over 3,000 Serbian civilians including women and children....Again, those islamic fanatics were armed and brought to Bosnia by the US braintrust of the time, mainly Albright and Holbrooke.

So yes, in a sense you are both correct. Serbs in Kosovo, Serbs in Croatia, Serbs in Bosnia, should be free from the people who have committed such crimes against them, not just recently but during their support for the Nazis in WWII as well as throughout history. History just seems to repeat itself, as all Serbian enemies today are the very same as the during WWII - Croats, Bosnian Muslims, and albanians all supported the Nazis, fact. Serbs have always been a people who were free and independent, and that is why the new colonialists of the EU and the US are trying to destroy them. It is not only not working, but it is backfiring. The former colonized nations of the world, and all freedom loving nations in fact, are waking up, and supporting Serbia! It is great to see, and it is great to see the US, UK, and the rest of their minions looking like total hypocrites, liars, and more and more isolated.
Serbia will lead the world in this fight, and justice will prevail over force! We Serbs relish being in this position :))
Cheers!!

A very interesting speech. No mention at all why the Albanians want to be free of Serbia. No mention at all of the decade-long war and suffering which brought about the death of Yugoslavia and of hundreds and thousands of its citizens. No mention of the right of a people to live without fear and hope.

The core of the argument here is what counts more, the right to life or the right to territorial integrity. If there is no life, territorial integrity is meaningless. That was the reason why NATO intervened in Kosovo. This is the argument the Albanians are putting to the UN and the world is listening.

Generally jaw-jaw-jaw is better than war-war-war.

This is more a case of law-law-law is better than war-war-war.

The EU countries and the US talk of upholding the principle of law. They must not stand in the way of this matter coming to trial.

It's interesting to read Albanian comment here. They seem more than happy to be branded thiefs which is exactly what they will be branded once ICJ ruling comes in.

It doesn't bother them one bit to take something illegally and then flaunt it. The fact that they have 47 countries supporting them in this is irrelevant. A bully usually has a few heavies in his corner when he is stealing lunch money. It doesn't make it legal or moral.

Well, if we are going to have the law on the jungle then don't whinge about everyone else going for what they can get as well.

Good luck RS on your way to independence. Looks like the only way to fight fire is with fire. You cannot fight criminals who don't play by the rules with rules. Sometimes you have to break a vew yourself to hold onto what is yours.
All of you who label Russia as hypocritical should stop as all that matters now is who threw the first punch. It's clear that the US did and should not expect Russia or Serbia to sit back and not throw a few their way.

The story of Kosovo being a Serbian cradle is nothing else but the serbian version of the history, with the advantage of being the first version of the history to be told and published, thanks to the fact that serbs enjoyed an earlier statehood, and thus the means (institutions) to write Kosovo's history first as they pleased and to be the first to internationalize their romanticism upon this region based on extreme nationalism, and religious alliances.

My point here is to tell you that Kosovo has never been considered Serbian, without abiguity from the international community, that's why I brought here a few examples. My point also was to say that the Serbian state has never been wise and shown any prudence in dealing with Albanians in Kosovo. I mean come on, the Jashari family was slaughtered in daylight with almost 2 dozens of other family members, mostly women and children. How can this state claim any right to rule these people.
(Martin, 25 September 2008 06:51)

Martin,

The fact that there are hundreds of Serbian Holy sites in Kosovo (many dating back to early medieval period long before any Albanian presense), plus the fact that the head of the Serbian Orthodox Church resides there seems to have escaped your selective comments. Kosovo, the very name which is Serbian by the way and many of its placenames are Serbian also seems to escape you.

What does this tell us. Simply it testifies to the essential Serb heritage of Kosovo and the fact that there are no records of any Albanian presense in the era prior to the late 17th century tells that us like the Ulster Protestants, K-Albanians are not natives to Kosovo.

I'm not a Serb (I'm Irish btw) nor a Serb nationalist but I still know of the unique Serbian cultural heritage of Kosovo i Methojia and its significance in the Serbian conscienceness. Until you and your kind comprehend this Martin, there will never be any lasting peace in this troublesome land.

Yes, Tadic pushed all the right buttons, made the right noises. Now as we say in Serbian we are at peace. You can only make the best of a difficult situation.

Roberto you seem to be getting more extreme by the day - what is going on with you?

The Belgrade 'regime' (as Serb radicals call it), was elected democratically is actually a government.

What exactly has Tadic done to contravene international law that has you so offended?

Belgrade has not accepted the break up of Yugoslavia. Well, thats strange, considering that Belgrade has recongised Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Macedonia and Montenegro. That is the usual way to measure isn't it?

Now, if we are to generalise about people then let me add mine. If Tito is popular anywhere in former Yugoslavia it is in Bosnia. Does that mean that Bosnians are to blame for Tito's crimes, or does it mean that some Bosnians (or others) believe fundamentally that Serbs, Croats and Bosnians are the same people?

For somebody who seems to like to consider himself a supporter of peace you sound much too radical for my taste.

well i've read the other reactions and now i have a right to add mine, short and (not so) sweet:

#1 Tadic and the belgrade regime speaking with reverence about international law?! it is amazing that the floor didn't open up right from under his feet and swallow him, whole cloth, for such ethical audacity..

#2 perhaps it doesn't occur to anyone else in the whole world but me: serbia has STILL NOT accepted the break-up of Yugoslavia, to this day! or shall i say serboslavia. i am not talking about fringe radicals -- i mean mainstream serbia. it is still fighting the legality of the break-up, even as the break-up is as obvious to the rest of the world as can be. but tadic, you will never put humpty dumpty together again, not even if you manage to resurrect poor, dead tito, and place him back on the throne, like some ancient byzantine emperor. with all due respect, of course.

so, i listened to the others, now it is my turn.

thank you :)

robert-0
(roberto, 24 September 2008 06:50)

What an ill-conceived post full of hatred for everything Serb and Serbia. It might as well have been wriiten by a Nazi, or rabid Croat/Bosniak/Albanian nationalist.

Roberto, there was nothing legal about the 'legality of the break-up' of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was ripped apart in a horrible and underhand way by internal and external forces who were intent on seeing it dissolve as the presense of a unitary, socialist & secular state threatened the West's/NATO's geo-political interests, ie expansion into E Europe and the Balkans.

Yugoslavia was destroyed in contravention of international law, the Helsinki Agreement of 1975 which 1) upholds the right of state to exist and 2) exercise its territorial integrity and sovereignty over its territory. Now Roberto, can you tell me where was the 'legality' in that. Where was the 'legality' in Operation Storm, the NATO bombing of YU. Answer, None. So please spare your blatant Serbophobia and sanctimonious & patronising BS.

And here's a little tit-bit for your Roberto. The last army to dismantle Yugoslavia and hand Kosmet over to the Albanian nationalists was... yep you guessed it, Nazi Germany, and you're a Jew. Unbelievable.

Before I go Roberto. I watched Tadic's speech in the UN and the hair stood up on the back of my neck. Do you know why, because the man has more spirit, courage and integrity than you or any sham Western politician have in their entire bodies.

Bravo Jeremic, bravo Tadic. Take the good fight to the highest court in the land. Justice will finally be done and all the wrongs committed against the Serbian and loyal Yugoslav people will be righted.

Niall, this guy who calls himself Roberto is an Albanian, didn´t you realize it by now?

WHO else would try so eagerly to express his hatred here?

don´t take them too seriously, since they will be isolated in the future, by their own fellow-k-albanians.

Martin, what kind of nonsense are you writing here?

Kosovo a reward for Serbia?

don´t you know that Kosovo is serbian, from the earliest times of todays europe, in the migration period?

how can you write such a naive propaganda about Serbia getting Kosovo as a reward, when it was the serbian state who liberated it´s southern province from the ottoman yoke?

Martin wrote,

Dragan, Albanians, and Bosnians, and Croats, sided with Germany in WWII, but maybe you should ask yourself, why? Why did all these nations, many of which are slavic and have same blood and speak same language, were so anti-Serbian? Maybe they always considered Serbia the greatest threat to them.

Are you for real? Nazi Germany was against the world not just Serbs, so this makes your idols enemies of the world too.
Are you seriously trying to say that there was nothing wrong with joining the Nazis if eliminating Serbia was the goal?

You do have serious issues here. Your obvious hatred for Serbs, therefore supporting what Nazis supporters have done has just discredited you.

bravo Niall, being irish, you are showing more understanding than most of our dear k-albanian friends here!

of course you are completely right, the serbian character of the southern serbian province is indelible.
the remark about the toponyms is just one of the arguments against their illegal activities...the Albanians do not even have an own name for our province!
it is serbian, it always was -
some are ignoring or denying it, for obvious reasons, but that only shows their weakness.

truth, moral and justice will prevail, Serbia will prevail!

"Jovan, please we can go on with this forever."

>>no, Martin, WE will go on until WE succeed.

"However, why did Autro-Hungary and Italy and other states supported the plan which included Kosovo in the Albanian state in 1913?"

>>if your question was a serious one, then I doubt that you can be helped! but I will answer for all those who have eventually asked themselves the same question before...,

because of the same reasons as today: because by supporting the Albanians they are trying to destabilize the region, and at the same time to weaken Serbia and Serbia´s influence in the region. the motives do not change, only the aggressors do.

and with doing so, they have managed it to install their military bases and armies on our soil. it´s that easy. it´s an old tactic called "divide et impera"...



"Why did Germany and France remain neutral to Serbian claim over Kosovo? Why did Ottomans considered Kosovo vilyaet an Albanian one."

>> same answer as above, please just read again.

"I thought the heart of the Serbian state was the old Rasca?"
>> for an Albanian, you are pretty bad informed, my dear.

"Further, even the JCP approved the right of self-determination of Kosovo twice before WWII in it's Congresses, and once again in Bojan conference in 1945, in a deal with Albanian CP."

>> no political party has the right to give away serbian soil, and certainly not the JCP. so that´s really not an argument, wouldn´t you agree?

"Of course albanians are to blame from an historical prespective, because they essentially gave away their ancient christian culture when they converted to islam, however not their autocthony."

>> that´s a question of Serbs rather fought the invaders, Albanians chose to be submissive, but you cannot blame todays Albanians for the mistakes of their ancestors.
BUT you can blame them for ignoring the historical truth, for denying that they have no connection to the illyrians, what they so desperately wish to emphasize in an ineffectual attempt to justify their claims on serbian territory.

"The story of Kosovo being a Serbian cradle is nothing else but the serbian version of the history"
>> I am afraid, you don´t know what you are talking about.
it is generally recognized history, not any allegedly serbian-colored "version", you should read some real history books, not these albanian phantasies that are sold at liquor-stores...

" serbs enjoyed an earlier statehood, and thus the means (institutions) to write Kosovo's history first as they pleased and to be the first to internationalize their romanticism upon this region based on extreme nationalism, and religious alliances."

>>wait a minute, weren´t the Albanians there for thousands of years before the Serbs? how come that the Serbs enjoyed statehood so much earlier?



"My point here is to tell you that Kosovo has never been considered Serbian, without abiguity from the international community, that's why I brought here a few examples."

>>your point failed, my dear friend. and your "examples" lack the basic need of any argument.

"My point also was to say that the Serbian state has never been wise and shown any prudence in dealing with Albanians in Kosovo."

given that there were greater-albanian phantasies amongst you back then from the socalled "Prizren League" which literally invented this ideology, the serbian state has more or less wisely surpressed these activities.

" I mean come on, the Jashari family was slaughtered in daylight with almost 2 dozens of other family members, mostly women and children."

>> nice "example" my friend, you certainly know that the Jashari-clan was one of the leading terrorist-supporters and even perpetrators, and they did not bring their children and women into safety, but chose to use their own children as human shields, and many of the "independence"-illusionists even believe them to be hero´s!

"How can this state claim any right to rule these people.
(Martin, 25 September 2008 "

>> Martin, we could go on and on, yes, and I think you still do not get it, it seems.

Serbia does not intend to rule them, since they are planned to rule themselves in the widest possible meaning of that word.
if you haven´t realized it yet, google the meaning of "substantial autonomy".

so, there can not be any doubt about the fact, that you on the one hand do not know the basic facts in regard to the Kosovo-issue and on the other hand are fearing something that isn´t intended at all.

WHAT you are not allowed is to establish a statelet on serbian sovereign territory.

there is a difference, and I am convinced that sooner or later the K-albanians will realize that difference.

just a question of time.

Jovan, the name of Kosovo is simply a result of the superiority of slavic presence in the region. There are regions in southern Albania, by the greek border (far from Macedonia), with slavic names, and orthodox churches, considered the birthplace of the albanian renaissance, does it mean that southern Albania is a sacred Serbian land? Yet if you look at the names of the small areas, or rivers, or mountains, etc they have albanian names.

There was an Albanian name of the province, called Dardania, just like there was an Ilyrian tribe called Albanoi, and a major city called Albanapolis in todays middle Albania, way before slavic migration. I know you dont believe the albanians decend from Ilirians, but you have yet to prove when and how did they move to the region, since there are no records whatsoever of their migration, like there are records of the migrations of the slavs. You have to prove that the Caucasian "albanians" have anything in common with Balkan albanians, such as language, tradition, dress codes etc.

So the fact that Kosovo is a Serbian stronghold because it has a serbian name and serbian churches does not prove anything, but the superiority of slavic culture in the region, but in no way proves that albanians did not exist in Kosovo. In anyway, your romantic theory of Kosovo being a serbian sacred region, does not give you the right to kill en-masse a people.

As parifrased in the US Declaration of Independence "...when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security".

there is still, up to the present day no proof for the often reiterated albanian claim of being the descendants of the Illyrians.
even in the late 80´s there was an US-american team of historians and archeologists in southern Serbia and did a lot of digging, research etc.

and they came to the conclusion that the illyrian theory of the illyrian descent is simply an invention of the socalled albanian romanticism.

and one more thing: don´t blame the Serbs for being non-existent so long, ...you simply have not "been there" and did not have any cultural or political influence... and there is a simple reason for it: you´ve not been there.

even from the Ottoman times there there is some data preserved in regard to polulation census, and it clearly marks the Albanians as a small minority in a totally serbian Kosovo... so, if you do not believe the Serbs, ...if you do not believe modern sience of history, you may perhaps believe the Ottomans... or maybe you think that even the Ottoman´s are part of a big serbian conspiracy! who knows,...

once again, my dear, I´d ask you to stick to the facts, since you are eagerly writing of "killing people en-masse"...

after the UN has investigated the data, they came to the conclusion that some 3000 persons were killed in the conflict between Albanians and Serbs. 3000, both sides included!

but... you will perhaps come up with the legend of 10.000 casualties only on the albanian side, right?

last but not least, if you are gonna bring up some foreign source, how about parAprhasing correctly?

Well show me a minority in any country in the world who gets 3000 (let's use your number, since you think 3000 dead are not significant) of its people slaughtered by the central gov. which would want to live within that state. Oh, I forgot Jashari used his children and women as a shield, which you didn't hesitate kill, what a terrorist he was.

Yes Albanians did not have a cultural dominance in the region 1200 years ago, well now they do, and you don't, and maybe you should not blame albanians for being "non-existent". What are you going to do, cry them a river?

And by the way, great argument about the "US-american?"(great wording) expedition" in the late 80 which did some study, and proved albanians wrong. Now these are indeed solid facts, and albanias should kill themlsevles in shame....