Macedonian, Greek FMs in talks

You seem confused Dimitar. There's a difference between being a minority and an indigineous minority recognized as such, one with special rights. There are also Thais and Sri Lankans in Greece. They too are a minority. But officially Greece only recognizes Muslims of Turkish and Pomak background as minorities with protected rights (i.e. public schools teach in those languages). This is NORMAL is any country in the world. The US for instance will recognize a person from Spain as a minority, because they speak Spanish. But they won't recognize a Moroccan as a minority. Why? Because Spanish has been officially designated as a minority language. Simple as that.

So, when Greece refers to Slavo-Macedonians they are precisely referring to the language you speak. In Greece, Macedonian refers to Greek people from the region of Greek Macedonia. We're discussing semantics here. Because otherwise identity does not rely AT ALL on national agreements. I can call myself a Camel-Macassar-Central-Massifian and no one could tell me that I am not. A country's name, on the other hand, is a legal entity. The fact that Hellas is called Greece outside of the country troubles nobody, nor should it.

I daresay that if SlavoMacedonians stopped makiing claims on Greek territory and stopped harkeing back to the time when they conspired with first the Nazis and then the COMINTERN to dismember Greece, they might find common ground.

Dimitar

We are where we are and as far as Resolution 817 is concerned the only issue is the name and nothing else.Are you asking us to recognise your language as the Makedonian language when the whole world knows that every single ancient Makedonian inscription is written in Greek?5000 so far.
Furthermore,states recognise only states and nothing else.
Gruevski's pseudo-posturing is only aimed at keeping happy the nationalists of the diaspora.

I forgot the other comment:
"it is in fact the Greek Government that is trying to confuse the issue, but truth has a way of skirting incessant falsehoods, as the truth is coming out at the expense of the national Greek lies."
Lets see. Greece since the beggining of your country (that is 1992 in case you have other older dates in your mind) has made steps towards a solution in the name dispute. Most of them were constructive. The fact that we moved from the original "no Macedonia mention in your name" to the (treacherous for me) "geografical term" is a huge compromising step. On the other hand, all this time, the fyromian Slavs were taking no step towards a solution. Instead, they tried to ad to the talks the "ethnic" issue, the "language" issue and the "church" issue. All of them were outside the original UN mandated frame. And now you try to spell an argument that we are the hypocrites?
Let me ask you this though. You are stalling the talks. Ok, thats your problem. What are you waiting for actually? The american elections to determine your new moves? Because if you are counting on that, then I am sorry to tell you that you are going to be sold by them in the very possible case that Obama wins.
What else are you waiting for? The eu to open their arms and hug you and let you in the union? How? With what criteria? And with Greek veto ringing like a bell in your ears everytime you beg to enter an international organisation? You are leading your newborn artificial Slavic and multiethnic country into oblivion. The sooner you realise it, the better for you.

@3.. it is in fact the Greek Government that is trying to confuse the issue, but truth has a way of skirting incessant falsehoods, as the truth is coming out at the expense of the national Greek lies.

I have no confusion personally as to who I am and where I come from, how about you Dan?
BTW.. feel free to take up the issue of the myriad ethnic groups that comprise today's Greek nation with Anastasia Karakasidou! The point is that there is a MAJOR CONFUSION out there re: the Greek identity. It is in the deliberately grey area between ethnicity and nationality! IE, the Greek claim to ethnic purity is simply laughable, in an ethnic sense. However, these people call themselves "Greek" because they belong to the G.O.C., have Greek nationality etc.

BTW, I forgot to add to that list the Albanian ethnic group, and their huge contribution to the creation and composition of the modern Greek state!

Unlike Greeks, we however, are ETHNIC MACEDONIANS as well as national. Oh, the semantics.. I know, another Greek ploy to muddy the waters re: the ethnic MACEDONIAN REALITY!

Greeks like to say that the Interim Accord and Resolution 817 re: the "differences" - not "dispute"- as Greece has painted the issue, is only about MACEDONIA'S name, and not any other issues, such as the MACEDONIAN ethnicity/identity, MACEDONIAN
language, history/heritage/culture, MACEDONIAN minority in Greece and so on, which it refuses to admit exists.

However, without recognition of the MACEDONIAN identity as separate from the "Greek Macedonian" regional descriptor, there can be no solution to the problem Greece has with our constitutuonal name. The constitutional name of the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA is not up for negotiation, only the acronym, The Former Yugoslav Rep. of MACEDONIA ( not Fyrom, another creation of the Greeks ).

We will not accept our ethnicity under any other name, our history, language, culture and so on, so I doubt there will be a solution where these "talks" between MACEDONIA and Greece are concerned. The solution will come later, under different conditions.

To preempt misinformation from Greeks, Slav as a term is a LINGUITIC descriptor!! IE; there is no Slav ethnic group, only ethnicities that speak languages that belong to the slavic group!

DNA tests have proven that the
DNA found predominantly in Slavic speaking peoples, is not exclusive to those peoples but is spread throughout Europe far and wide, including Southern Balkan countries; Greece 9%, Albania 10%, Macedonia 15.2%, Serbia 16%, Bulgaria, over 20% etc.

Thus, when "Greek" government apologists/ self proclaimed "Greeks", call MACEDONIA for example, slav, its built on an assumed "differentiation from the pure Greek bloodlines", untainted by the inferior Slavic genepool! This is simply another poor lie in the Greek arsenal of lies, used regularly by them in an unrelenting propaganda campaign against MACEDONIA, and their drive to promote a false national history and to claim the MACEDONIAN heritage for themselves, to an often ignorant world!

For example, in complete contra to official "Greek" doctrine, Anastasia Karakasidou, author of "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood" stated on a visit last week to MACEDONIA, that in Greece exist, Macedonians ( ethnic, not regional ), Vlahs, Roma, Turks, Pomaks, refugees from Asia Minor, and Bulgaria, and finally, Trabzoni ( not sure if this is the right translation ), Thracians and Cappadoccians!

@8
I am writting this answer for 2 reasons.
1. is that b92 didnt post an earlier message i wrote about the "many ethnicities" that you dream exist in Greece and I had to mention it, and
2. as I was saying in that post:
"Keep posting please, you make our case stronger"
and
"read and understand what you read, before you post something"

And with the message not even published, you come here and justify my words.
My answer to you is simple:
"German professor and Macedonist, Wolf Schpitz, claims that Macedonian is the oldest of the Slavic languages!"
Its your own words. Now if you think that you used a strong argument in your favor..... I am really sorry, but you didnt :)

Dimitar,

Every country, like every individual has a right to choose its name. Evrybody could be called Alexander. However only a lunatic could claim to be e descendent from Alexander the Great.
The reason why Macedonia is loosing the name battle is because they do not just want to retain that name, but also to persuade the world that they always had this ethnic identity! And here you run into unsolvable problem.
Let us take the language. The identity of the language is indivisable from the mane the speakers call it. Today when two persons meet, say in London it is a normal practice one to ask the other: "Do you speak Macedonian?" So the Macedonian language obviously exists. No one could deny its existance by linguistic explanations. However your scholars want to call "Macedonian" the language of the 18 and 19 century patriots from the region, bespite of the fact that they themselves called the language they wrote and spoke "Bulgarian". When two persons met in the 18th or 19th , say in Istanbul, they asked each other: "Do you speak Bulgarian". This could not be denied by linguistic explanations like: The (modern) Macedonian language evolved from those diealects, while the (modern) Bulgarian evolved from different dialects.
The concept of a Macedonian language appeared as a Serb polictical project in the late 19 century and it was not until the 1930 that it gained popularity!
So be a nation, have an identity and a language, but don't try to twist the past.

@10
Thank you for showing how right I am when I say that you dont understand what you read.
Once again:
"German professor and Macedonist, Wolf Schpitz, claims that Macedonian is the oldest of the Slavic languages!"
Your words.
Can you find the key word in that sentence?
It starts with an "S" and ends with "lavic".

The name MACEDONIA was never yours to give us "permission" to use, so stop pretending that you've made a huge concession! We do NOT ACCEPT THAT GREECE HAS MADE ANY CONCESSION!

You say we are a new slavic state blah blah... but in fact it's "Greece" that, once created by the great European Powers, used force and coersion to artificially create the Greek nation by deconstructing the real ethnic identities of the Albanians, Turks, Macedonians, Roma and others trapped in its borders. By stripping them of their natural mother languages the Greek state forced upon them the artificial "Koine" language which today you parade as Greek. Koine you took from the Byzantine church and implies no connection whatsoever to ancient Greece.

One year ago, the EU came up with an initiative for creating a single history book to be used by all Balkan countries so as to preempt biased versions of"history" from the Balkan countries. All Balkan countries agreed. This initiative was blocked by GReece.WHY?? If Greece is in the right, re:history surely it would promote this project?

Stop the propaganda, ie; Macedonia is Greek. If it was, there would be consensus, whereas the Greek claims are not serious to consider, are nonsense. AS for the ancient MACEDONIANS speaking Greek; this proves nothing. They were partially Hellenized from the 5th Century on, big deal! So were Illyrians, Thracians, so what.. how is this proof????

BY the same argument, we should all be English, huh?
German professor and Macedonist, Wolf Schpitz, claims that Macedonian is the oldest of the Slavic languages! There is NO CONSENSUS that the Antique Macedonians were Greek, in fact there is countless proof to the opposite! So why persist in these dead arguments?

Finally; why do you try to make us into idiots, when the name, should it change, will be applied to our language, culture, church and so on. In short to everything MACEDOBIAN. Our language is recognised in the UN as MACEDONIAN, so we're not about to change. This is the precondition we've placed on any consideration of a name change to replace the acronym!
With Chile's recognition of our costitutional name, it brings the number to 124. In the UN there are about 190 countries. A few more to make the two thirds majority in the UN. I think the MACEDONIAN Govt. has made the Greek Govt. look like fools, over natioalistic to the extreme, in denial of HISTORIC REALITY. But as Anastasia Karakasidou said in Macedonia; the intellectuals, the educated the politicians know the trueth; that MACEDONIA was never Greek! Its a political tool of manipulation, those that are the manipulated, the Greek masses, know nothing, they do not even know the true history of their country!

the macedonians dont need european union and nato to change their name,every person has the rights to complain on the ethnic macedonians,with obama the name has already been recognised in america so that wont be reversed,and if theres more vetos to come from greece the world will see that greece is a bully to their neighbours

@ nikitas... as always you MAKE NO POINT AT ALL! if you deny that there is no such thing as ethnic minorities in Greece then you, as all Greeks are in severe denial! But hey, ask Anastasia Karakasidou, or maybe read her book "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", published by Detroit University!

And hey, where's the proof that the ancient MACEDONIANS were "Greek"? Oh, that's right, they spoke "Greek"...blah blah..

Maybe you can expain why, when being taught about the ancient Macedonian Kingdom, it is catagorised around the world under Classical Greek History??
Are all the scholars and historians wrong for so long?
Can you (Skoijan) translate the ancient Macedonian inscriptions??
Which Gods did Alexander worship?
Why was Alexander tutored by a Greek scolar (Aristotle)?
Why isn't there a so called Macedonian minority in Alexandria, but a healthy Greek minority exists - why is that??

You seem confused Dimitar. There's a difference between being a minority and an indigineous minority recognized as such, one with special rights. There are also Thais and Sri Lankans in Greece. They too are a minority. But officially Greece only recognizes Muslims of Turkish and Pomak background as minorities with protected rights (i.e. public schools teach in those languages). This is NORMAL is any country in the world. The US for instance will recognize a person from Spain as a minority, because they speak Spanish. But they won't recognize a Moroccan as a minority. Why? Because Spanish has been officially designated as a minority language. Simple as that.

So, when Greece refers to Slavo-Macedonians they are precisely referring to the language you speak. In Greece, Macedonian refers to Greek people from the region of Greek Macedonia. We're discussing semantics here. Because otherwise identity does not rely AT ALL on national agreements. I can call myself a Camel-Macassar-Central-Massifian and no one could tell me that I am not. A country's name, on the other hand, is a legal entity. The fact that Hellas is called Greece outside of the country troubles nobody, nor should it.

I daresay that if SlavoMacedonians stopped makiing claims on Greek territory and stopped harkeing back to the time when they conspired with first the Nazis and then the COMINTERN to dismember Greece, they might find common ground.

I forgot the other comment:
"it is in fact the Greek Government that is trying to confuse the issue, but truth has a way of skirting incessant falsehoods, as the truth is coming out at the expense of the national Greek lies."
Lets see. Greece since the beggining of your country (that is 1992 in case you have other older dates in your mind) has made steps towards a solution in the name dispute. Most of them were constructive. The fact that we moved from the original "no Macedonia mention in your name" to the (treacherous for me) "geografical term" is a huge compromising step. On the other hand, all this time, the fyromian Slavs were taking no step towards a solution. Instead, they tried to ad to the talks the "ethnic" issue, the "language" issue and the "church" issue. All of them were outside the original UN mandated frame. And now you try to spell an argument that we are the hypocrites?
Let me ask you this though. You are stalling the talks. Ok, thats your problem. What are you waiting for actually? The american elections to determine your new moves? Because if you are counting on that, then I am sorry to tell you that you are going to be sold by them in the very possible case that Obama wins.
What else are you waiting for? The eu to open their arms and hug you and let you in the union? How? With what criteria? And with Greek veto ringing like a bell in your ears everytime you beg to enter an international organisation? You are leading your newborn artificial Slavic and multiethnic country into oblivion. The sooner you realise it, the better for you.

Greeks like to say that the Interim Accord and Resolution 817 re: the "differences" - not "dispute"- as Greece has painted the issue, is only about MACEDONIA'S name, and not any other issues, such as the MACEDONIAN ethnicity/identity, MACEDONIAN
language, history/heritage/culture, MACEDONIAN minority in Greece and so on, which it refuses to admit exists.

However, without recognition of the MACEDONIAN identity as separate from the "Greek Macedonian" regional descriptor, there can be no solution to the problem Greece has with our constitutuonal name. The constitutional name of the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA is not up for negotiation, only the acronym, The Former Yugoslav Rep. of MACEDONIA ( not Fyrom, another creation of the Greeks ).

We will not accept our ethnicity under any other name, our history, language, culture and so on, so I doubt there will be a solution where these "talks" between MACEDONIA and Greece are concerned. The solution will come later, under different conditions.

To preempt misinformation from Greeks, Slav as a term is a LINGUITIC descriptor!! IE; there is no Slav ethnic group, only ethnicities that speak languages that belong to the slavic group!

DNA tests have proven that the
DNA found predominantly in Slavic speaking peoples, is not exclusive to those peoples but is spread throughout Europe far and wide, including Southern Balkan countries; Greece 9%, Albania 10%, Macedonia 15.2%, Serbia 16%, Bulgaria, over 20% etc.

Thus, when "Greek" government apologists/ self proclaimed "Greeks", call MACEDONIA for example, slav, its built on an assumed "differentiation from the pure Greek bloodlines", untainted by the inferior Slavic genepool! This is simply another poor lie in the Greek arsenal of lies, used regularly by them in an unrelenting propaganda campaign against MACEDONIA, and their drive to promote a false national history and to claim the MACEDONIAN heritage for themselves, to an often ignorant world!

For example, in complete contra to official "Greek" doctrine, Anastasia Karakasidou, author of "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood" stated on a visit last week to MACEDONIA, that in Greece exist, Macedonians ( ethnic, not regional ), Vlahs, Roma, Turks, Pomaks, refugees from Asia Minor, and Bulgaria, and finally, Trabzoni ( not sure if this is the right translation ), Thracians and Cappadoccians!

@3.. it is in fact the Greek Government that is trying to confuse the issue, but truth has a way of skirting incessant falsehoods, as the truth is coming out at the expense of the national Greek lies.

I have no confusion personally as to who I am and where I come from, how about you Dan?
BTW.. feel free to take up the issue of the myriad ethnic groups that comprise today's Greek nation with Anastasia Karakasidou! The point is that there is a MAJOR CONFUSION out there re: the Greek identity. It is in the deliberately grey area between ethnicity and nationality! IE, the Greek claim to ethnic purity is simply laughable, in an ethnic sense. However, these people call themselves "Greek" because they belong to the G.O.C., have Greek nationality etc.

BTW, I forgot to add to that list the Albanian ethnic group, and their huge contribution to the creation and composition of the modern Greek state!

Unlike Greeks, we however, are ETHNIC MACEDONIANS as well as national. Oh, the semantics.. I know, another Greek ploy to muddy the waters re: the ethnic MACEDONIAN REALITY!

Dimitar

We are where we are and as far as Resolution 817 is concerned the only issue is the name and nothing else.Are you asking us to recognise your language as the Makedonian language when the whole world knows that every single ancient Makedonian inscription is written in Greek?5000 so far.
Furthermore,states recognise only states and nothing else.
Gruevski's pseudo-posturing is only aimed at keeping happy the nationalists of the diaspora.

the macedonians dont need european union and nato to change their name,every person has the rights to complain on the ethnic macedonians,with obama the name has already been recognised in america so that wont be reversed,and if theres more vetos to come from greece the world will see that greece is a bully to their neighbours

The name MACEDONIA was never yours to give us "permission" to use, so stop pretending that you've made a huge concession! We do NOT ACCEPT THAT GREECE HAS MADE ANY CONCESSION!

You say we are a new slavic state blah blah... but in fact it's "Greece" that, once created by the great European Powers, used force and coersion to artificially create the Greek nation by deconstructing the real ethnic identities of the Albanians, Turks, Macedonians, Roma and others trapped in its borders. By stripping them of their natural mother languages the Greek state forced upon them the artificial "Koine" language which today you parade as Greek. Koine you took from the Byzantine church and implies no connection whatsoever to ancient Greece.

One year ago, the EU came up with an initiative for creating a single history book to be used by all Balkan countries so as to preempt biased versions of"history" from the Balkan countries. All Balkan countries agreed. This initiative was blocked by GReece.WHY?? If Greece is in the right, re:history surely it would promote this project?

Stop the propaganda, ie; Macedonia is Greek. If it was, there would be consensus, whereas the Greek claims are not serious to consider, are nonsense. AS for the ancient MACEDONIANS speaking Greek; this proves nothing. They were partially Hellenized from the 5th Century on, big deal! So were Illyrians, Thracians, so what.. how is this proof????

BY the same argument, we should all be English, huh?
German professor and Macedonist, Wolf Schpitz, claims that Macedonian is the oldest of the Slavic languages! There is NO CONSENSUS that the Antique Macedonians were Greek, in fact there is countless proof to the opposite! So why persist in these dead arguments?

Finally; why do you try to make us into idiots, when the name, should it change, will be applied to our language, culture, church and so on. In short to everything MACEDOBIAN. Our language is recognised in the UN as MACEDONIAN, so we're not about to change. This is the precondition we've placed on any consideration of a name change to replace the acronym!
With Chile's recognition of our costitutional name, it brings the number to 124. In the UN there are about 190 countries. A few more to make the two thirds majority in the UN. I think the MACEDONIAN Govt. has made the Greek Govt. look like fools, over natioalistic to the extreme, in denial of HISTORIC REALITY. But as Anastasia Karakasidou said in Macedonia; the intellectuals, the educated the politicians know the trueth; that MACEDONIA was never Greek! Its a political tool of manipulation, those that are the manipulated, the Greek masses, know nothing, they do not even know the true history of their country!

@8
I am writting this answer for 2 reasons.
1. is that b92 didnt post an earlier message i wrote about the "many ethnicities" that you dream exist in Greece and I had to mention it, and
2. as I was saying in that post:
"Keep posting please, you make our case stronger"
and
"read and understand what you read, before you post something"

And with the message not even published, you come here and justify my words.
My answer to you is simple:
"German professor and Macedonist, Wolf Schpitz, claims that Macedonian is the oldest of the Slavic languages!"
Its your own words. Now if you think that you used a strong argument in your favor..... I am really sorry, but you didnt :)

@ nikitas... as always you MAKE NO POINT AT ALL! if you deny that there is no such thing as ethnic minorities in Greece then you, as all Greeks are in severe denial! But hey, ask Anastasia Karakasidou, or maybe read her book "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", published by Detroit University!

And hey, where's the proof that the ancient MACEDONIANS were "Greek"? Oh, that's right, they spoke "Greek"...blah blah..

Dimitar,

Every country, like every individual has a right to choose its name. Evrybody could be called Alexander. However only a lunatic could claim to be e descendent from Alexander the Great.
The reason why Macedonia is loosing the name battle is because they do not just want to retain that name, but also to persuade the world that they always had this ethnic identity! And here you run into unsolvable problem.
Let us take the language. The identity of the language is indivisable from the mane the speakers call it. Today when two persons meet, say in London it is a normal practice one to ask the other: "Do you speak Macedonian?" So the Macedonian language obviously exists. No one could deny its existance by linguistic explanations. However your scholars want to call "Macedonian" the language of the 18 and 19 century patriots from the region, bespite of the fact that they themselves called the language they wrote and spoke "Bulgarian". When two persons met in the 18th or 19th , say in Istanbul, they asked each other: "Do you speak Bulgarian". This could not be denied by linguistic explanations like: The (modern) Macedonian language evolved from those diealects, while the (modern) Bulgarian evolved from different dialects.
The concept of a Macedonian language appeared as a Serb polictical project in the late 19 century and it was not until the 1930 that it gained popularity!
So be a nation, have an identity and a language, but don't try to twist the past.

@10
Thank you for showing how right I am when I say that you dont understand what you read.
Once again:
"German professor and Macedonist, Wolf Schpitz, claims that Macedonian is the oldest of the Slavic languages!"
Your words.
Can you find the key word in that sentence?
It starts with an "S" and ends with "lavic".

Maybe you can expain why, when being taught about the ancient Macedonian Kingdom, it is catagorised around the world under Classical Greek History??
Are all the scholars and historians wrong for so long?
Can you (Skoijan) translate the ancient Macedonian inscriptions??
Which Gods did Alexander worship?
Why was Alexander tutored by a Greek scolar (Aristotle)?
Why isn't there a so called Macedonian minority in Alexandria, but a healthy Greek minority exists - why is that??