Albano (# 28),
The fact that Miralem Sulejmani, a muslim, is playing for the Serbian football team, is a clear indication that Serbia is indeed a multi-ethnic society.
for sure...Kosova cannot be multi-ethnical STATE becouse SERBS do not want to integrate isn't it ?
can anybody tell me will sebs in totally wanna be integrated in the world system??
"If you want to talk about the way civilized people act then start preaching to the Albanians who have stolen someone's territory by using terror and violence"
Someone else's? You do know that Albanians are the autochtones there right?
How did you 'steal' the territory from the Byzantines, from the Turks and later from the Albanians? Let us know. Also how did you get Vojvodina and Republika Serpska? The territory belongs to the people that live there, and 90% are Albanian.
Peggy wrote: "What sort of a deed do you require Serbia to produce to prove ownership?"
I am not asking Serbia to produce any deeds. The whole concept of some state owning some part of the Earth is silly. People own stuff.
I have a house in Denmark, and I have a copy of a Transfer-of-Ownership document verifying that the house and the small ground it is situated on belongs to me. Dated and signed by the Notarius Publicus (some government official/agency).
If Kosovo really is stolen from the Serbian people, then I am sure these people also have similar kind of deeds - papers that prove that in year XXXX they bought a house, at some street address, in some village, somewhere inside Kosovo.
To me, that is the logical starting point when trying to reclaim stolen land: Produce some documents that some way or the other shows that this piece of land really belongs to this or that person.
Next step is to contact the judicial system and get their verdict on who the house belongs too (just like it has been done in Germany, Poland, and possibly other former Nazi-Germany and Soviet-occupied countries, where Jewish families and other refugees in some cases have been successful in reclaiming their old property).
The difficulty here is of course if the judicial system does not recognize the documents - or if the judicial system does not exist. Which leads me to Peters question:
peter, sydney wrote:
"Am curious, do you regard K-albanian 'pseudo-state' as a civilised society?"
I haven't been to Kosovo, peter, so I can't know for sure. My guess is that it is not a civilized society (yet). Maybe 10 years ahead we will see something that resembles a civilized society with a fully working government and government officials that is dedicated to serve all of the people, and not just their political and ethnic friends.
--
Serbs cannot even walk in Kosovo and not be killed...how do you expect from them to support independence.I served in Kosovo in 2005.Not good at all.Serbs cannot live there and they don't have where to go.Albanians are using West for their own agenda (to kick out Serbs from Kosovo) and West want to buy everything in Kosovo for cheap prices.Serbs are the one always suffered in Kosovo.And still are!
OSCE says that the K-albanian 'pseudo-state' is not a multi-ethnic society. K-albanian camp says otherwise.
Well let's see shall we.
This the same society that has consistently denied serb hospitals free access to essential medicines frequently putting the lives of their patients at risk - patients I might add that include K-albanians?
This the same society that saw a province-wide & orchestrated pogrom against the serb minority 4 years ago?
The same society where serbs, be they members of the K-albanian police service, or isolated teenagers, are attacked by mobs of K-albanians? And this in the north of Kosovo where serbs are a majority?
A multi-ethnic society? Only in the imagination of people like 'Independent', 'Dane' & 'ben'.
Jan Andersen DK:
See you didn't actually comment on the topic at hand. Am curious, do you regard K-albanian 'pseudo-state' as a civilised society?
How about one that uses cluster bombs on &/or near civilian targets, then refuses to clean up the unexploded ordnance left over almost a decade after the event all the while promoting themselves as exemplars of humanity & decency?
And guess who is responsible for the deaths of more women & children in recent history than anyone else on this planet?
Strange that the US & so-called 'republic of Kosovo' are allies isn't it.
Do us a favour and stop posting here and go draw some cartoons and let your owm "minorities" in DK take care of the rest. Your country's plight has no sympathies from anyone here or your opinions.
I wonder why OSCE doesnt complain about Albania not being really multicultural as well. After all the population makeup is roughly the same:)(over 90% MONOCULTURAL)
Or do you disagree? Do you accept that Kosovo is not Serbia any more?
One or the other, please.
--
(Jan Andersen, DK, 9 September 2008 15:10)
Yes, you can have both. Kosovo is Serbian and if stolen someone has to pay for it.
Just because someone steals your property doesn't mean that your property becomes the property of the thief. It still remains your property until either you are compensated if it no longer in a condition in which it was stolen or it must be returned.
You go on about deeds and some really silly stuff. What sort of a deed do you require Serbia to produce to prove ownership? How about res 1244 and the map where Kosovo is clearly shown to be part of Serbia?
What deed does England have to prove Wales and Scottland are part of Britain?
If you want to talk about the way civilized people act then start preaching to the Albanians who have stolen someone's territory by using terror and violence.
On 9 September 2008 15:56, Another Canadian Serb wrote:
"Currently, Kosovo is full of squatters living on Serbian soil. If Serbia unwillingly has her territory stripped away from her, then she should be financially compensated."
Sorry, I must have missed the memo about US citizens performing massive land squatting in Kosovo. I mean, unless they are US citizens, you wouldn't demand compensation from the USA, right?
ACS: "Jan, what price would you propose that Serbia sell Kosovo for?"
How about peace, stability, and prosperity?
ACS: "Or should Serbia evict these non paying tenants from Kosovo?"
If Serbia thinks that is what serves the Serbian people best, go ahead, be my guest.
Or Serbia could try to dig up old property and land deeds, and work from there to find a way to compensate people that have been robbed of their property. That is what civilized societies usually do.
Dear Llir Trimi,
how can you say that the Serbs have experience in evicting Albanians from Kosovo. Last i checked, there are no Serbs left in Kosovo. Go spill your propaganda on another message board, preferably an American one.
Independent,
where in your post do you mention what the Serbians wanted. You only mention how the US and the EU forced their will upon Serbia. It was the EU's and American foreign policy that first split up the former Yugoslavian states. All else is a domino effect. Every secessionist was able to walk away from the wreck, leaving Serbia to hold the carcass. Where is the compensation from all these wrecks?
Just the fact that the American's have yet to pay reparations, says it all.
Better yet, when are they coming back to clean up there non exploded bombs, from the territory of Serbia.
It needs a lot of work to do! Especially on the K-Serbian side. Once and for all they should stop being puppets of the xenophobes form Belgrade and stop dreaming teh Serbian hegemony over Kosova. As consequence they will not be isolated by their neighbours that are the overwhelm majority.
However, there is a lot of work to do but it is a multi-ethnic society
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=07&dd=13&nav_id=51880
it took a long time to osce to understand that they were wrong in the way they promoted their policy:translated in albanian this word etnike,has a great emotional power( how many of us have been condamned only for this word,who referred to our dream to be part of the real albania,which in albanian is called the etnik one!) So it was quite a great idea of the osce office to promote /kosova multietnike by translating it in albanian as kosova shume etnike .What a great joke:it means in albanian kosova very and strongly etnike;And indeed kosova was and is strongly albanian! Yes,believe me kosova IS really SHUME ETNIKE!
Seems like Albanians here are forgetting about the Gorans and Roma - many thousands who've fled Kosovo - and those who remain face hardship, racism and abuse.
Plus the small community of Croats has shrunk even further due to attacks and pressure of the Albanians.
There are many others who are quiet about abuse by the Albanians for fear they will be treated even worse. Some Bosniaks have been murdered by Albanians in recent years, for instance.
Not surprisingly, the only ones arguing Kosovo Province is a multiethnic society are the Albanians and their international backers.
If the largest minority has no faith in the institutions, are given no place in society, and are generally regarded as second class citizens by the Albanian community, then, through no invocation of Serbian nationalism or Albanian prejudice, we must agree with the statements of OSCE.
In fact, Kosovo has been little more than a tug of war between Serbs and Albanians since the late nineteenth century. Both side have actively engaged in exclusionarly politics in which their own side is promoted as the lawful owner of the land, while the other is regarded as little more than a temporary interloper. It's always funny to listen to Albanian grievances of prejudice and stigma when they are out of power, and hear them promote themselves as the greatest democratic society outside Habermas' civic square when they are in power.
Kosovo is multi-ethnic society. It is matter of perception regarding on proportional figures between majority and minority ethnic groups living in Kosovo. It is not realistic to pretend to change these proportional figures. It is tried in a past, but luckily it didn't work.
Talking about integration, only members of Serbian community for one or another reason hesitate to be integrated based on offered standards and possibilities. As for the other ethnic communities, matter of integration is on a level of most European countries.
Dear Serbs, don't make traps you can fall on them...
I wonder when the USA is going to financially compensate Serbia for her loss in the Kosovo real estate transaction?
(Another Canadian Serb, 9 September 2008 14:01)
It was US initiative to force EU to fast track the EU membership for Serbia even without arresting of Karadzic and Mladic in return of Kosovo recognition based on Marti Ahtisari plan, so not full independence. The package included aid and compensation on 3-4 bln dollars. Kostunica wanted more. It turned out that everything what West wanted will be forced upon and no compensation even no aid and other NATO bombing repair help for Serbia because of its refusal to accept new reality in Kosovo.
Kostunica later had no choice but to start singing the old folkloric nationalist songs pretending that Kosovo was not for Sale or for any trade for EU fast entry. So, if you follow the trend – It was Sale offer, and it was trade offer but he refused it. Sometime if you are too greedy you get nothing. That’s what happened.
Do they regret it? – of course yes, but in politic there are too many things you don’t say.
Follow the story of Seselj refusing to vote for SAA in last minute even with “Kosovo as part of Serbia” change. It is simple; they don’t want Tadic to get a deal. They want that deal for themselves.
Look at this trend:
They wanted Kosovo without Albanians – failed. Lets prepare new plan …
They wanted Kosovo with Albanians but to be governed by Serbia – failed. Lets prepare new plan …
They wanted Kosovo with Albanians, to be governed by Albanians but legally part of Serbia so Kosovo pay tax to Serbia and Serbia do business without being taxed (remember Customs offices being burned) – failed. Lets prepare new plan …
They want North of Kosovo being part of Serbia. This plan is still in action. They want to orchestrate the same plan as SO and later want to intervene “to save the civilian lives” and later to annex part of Kosovo each is richest part of Kosovo forgetting the “nationalist, folkloric, historic, religions” justification for south of Kosovo. Can Serbian people who pay tax understand that it is not about them, it is about business and profit for some politician singing folkloric song and not caring for them at all other for power and money?
When it comes to "re-education", clean up your own home first before looking at your neighbor's.
This is not to say that the Kosovar Albanians' behavior towards the Serbs lately has been an example of tolerance and harmony...but you get my point I hope.
I bet you would like to evict all the K. Albanians wouldn't you. After all you have some experience on doing that. Could you please tell me what do you want from Kosova? The land or the People??
Kosovo is a multiethnic society except one ethnic group who don’t what to participate in building the future of that society.
If Bosniaks, Montenegrins, and Turks are ready to be part and contribute on that society in cooperation with Albanians majority, that doesn’t justified the constant absent behavior and denial Serbs minority choose to live in Kosovo.
On 9 September 2008 14:01, Another Canadian Serb wrote:
"I wonder when the USA is going to financially compensate Serbia for her loss in the Kosovo real estate transaction?"
What transaction? Most of what I hear from the Serbian side on this board is "KOSOVO IS SERBIA". If that is true, that Kosovo (still) is part of Serbia, then then is hardly any basis for any compensation, is there?
Or do you disagree? Do you accept that Kosovo is not Serbia any more?
Jan Andersen,
what part about Serbia owning the property of Kosovo do you not understand?
"Kosovo is Serbia"
Currently, Kosovo is full of squatters living on Serbian soil. If Serbia unwillingly has her territory stripped away from her, then she should be financially compensated.
Jan, what price would you propose that Serbia sell Kosovo for?
Or should Serbia evict these non paying tenants from Kosovo?
This is precisely the outcome that the USA desired. The Americans have been very successful in cleansing all Serbs from Kosovo. I wonder when the USA is going to financially compensate Serbia for her loss in the Kosovo real estate transaction?
This is precisely the outcome that the USA desired. The Americans have been very successful in cleansing all Serbs from Kosovo. I wonder when the USA is going to financially compensate Serbia for her loss in the Kosovo real estate transaction?
Jan Andersen,
what part about Serbia owning the property of Kosovo do you not understand?
"Kosovo is Serbia"
Currently, Kosovo is full of squatters living on Serbian soil. If Serbia unwillingly has her territory stripped away from her, then she should be financially compensated.
Jan, what price would you propose that Serbia sell Kosovo for?
Or should Serbia evict these non paying tenants from Kosovo?
Serbs cannot even walk in Kosovo and not be killed...how do you expect from them to support independence.I served in Kosovo in 2005.Not good at all.Serbs cannot live there and they don't have where to go.Albanians are using West for their own agenda (to kick out Serbs from Kosovo) and West want to buy everything in Kosovo for cheap prices.Serbs are the one always suffered in Kosovo.And still are!
Kosovo is a multiethnic society except one ethnic group who don’t what to participate in building the future of that society.
If Bosniaks, Montenegrins, and Turks are ready to be part and contribute on that society in cooperation with Albanians majority, that doesn’t justified the constant absent behavior and denial Serbs minority choose to live in Kosovo.
Not surprisingly, the only ones arguing Kosovo Province is a multiethnic society are the Albanians and their international backers.
If the largest minority has no faith in the institutions, are given no place in society, and are generally regarded as second class citizens by the Albanian community, then, through no invocation of Serbian nationalism or Albanian prejudice, we must agree with the statements of OSCE.
In fact, Kosovo has been little more than a tug of war between Serbs and Albanians since the late nineteenth century. Both side have actively engaged in exclusionarly politics in which their own side is promoted as the lawful owner of the land, while the other is regarded as little more than a temporary interloper. It's always funny to listen to Albanian grievances of prejudice and stigma when they are out of power, and hear them promote themselves as the greatest democratic society outside Habermas' civic square when they are in power.
Kosovo is multi-ethnic society. It is matter of perception regarding on proportional figures between majority and minority ethnic groups living in Kosovo. It is not realistic to pretend to change these proportional figures. It is tried in a past, but luckily it didn't work.
Talking about integration, only members of Serbian community for one or another reason hesitate to be integrated based on offered standards and possibilities. As for the other ethnic communities, matter of integration is on a level of most European countries.
Dear Serbs, don't make traps you can fall on them...
I wonder when the USA is going to financially compensate Serbia for her loss in the Kosovo real estate transaction?
(Another Canadian Serb, 9 September 2008 14:01)
It was US initiative to force EU to fast track the EU membership for Serbia even without arresting of Karadzic and Mladic in return of Kosovo recognition based on Marti Ahtisari plan, so not full independence. The package included aid and compensation on 3-4 bln dollars. Kostunica wanted more. It turned out that everything what West wanted will be forced upon and no compensation even no aid and other NATO bombing repair help for Serbia because of its refusal to accept new reality in Kosovo.
Kostunica later had no choice but to start singing the old folkloric nationalist songs pretending that Kosovo was not for Sale or for any trade for EU fast entry. So, if you follow the trend – It was Sale offer, and it was trade offer but he refused it. Sometime if you are too greedy you get nothing. That’s what happened.
Do they regret it? – of course yes, but in politic there are too many things you don’t say.
Follow the story of Seselj refusing to vote for SAA in last minute even with “Kosovo as part of Serbia” change. It is simple; they don’t want Tadic to get a deal. They want that deal for themselves.
Look at this trend:
They wanted Kosovo without Albanians – failed. Lets prepare new plan …
They wanted Kosovo with Albanians but to be governed by Serbia – failed. Lets prepare new plan …
They wanted Kosovo with Albanians, to be governed by Albanians but legally part of Serbia so Kosovo pay tax to Serbia and Serbia do business without being taxed (remember Customs offices being burned) – failed. Lets prepare new plan …
They want North of Kosovo being part of Serbia. This plan is still in action. They want to orchestrate the same plan as SO and later want to intervene “to save the civilian lives” and later to annex part of Kosovo each is richest part of Kosovo forgetting the “nationalist, folkloric, historic, religions” justification for south of Kosovo. Can Serbian people who pay tax understand that it is not about them, it is about business and profit for some politician singing folkloric song and not caring for them at all other for power and money?
Dear Llir Trimi,
how can you say that the Serbs have experience in evicting Albanians from Kosovo. Last i checked, there are no Serbs left in Kosovo. Go spill your propaganda on another message board, preferably an American one.
Seems like Albanians here are forgetting about the Gorans and Roma - many thousands who've fled Kosovo - and those who remain face hardship, racism and abuse.
Plus the small community of Croats has shrunk even further due to attacks and pressure of the Albanians.
There are many others who are quiet about abuse by the Albanians for fear they will be treated even worse. Some Bosniaks have been murdered by Albanians in recent years, for instance.
On 9 September 2008 14:01, Another Canadian Serb wrote:
"I wonder when the USA is going to financially compensate Serbia for her loss in the Kosovo real estate transaction?"
What transaction? Most of what I hear from the Serbian side on this board is "KOSOVO IS SERBIA". If that is true, that Kosovo (still) is part of Serbia, then then is hardly any basis for any compensation, is there?
Or do you disagree? Do you accept that Kosovo is not Serbia any more?
Or do you disagree? Do you accept that Kosovo is not Serbia any more?
One or the other, please.
--
(Jan Andersen, DK, 9 September 2008 15:10)
Yes, you can have both. Kosovo is Serbian and if stolen someone has to pay for it.
Just because someone steals your property doesn't mean that your property becomes the property of the thief. It still remains your property until either you are compensated if it no longer in a condition in which it was stolen or it must be returned.
You go on about deeds and some really silly stuff. What sort of a deed do you require Serbia to produce to prove ownership? How about res 1244 and the map where Kosovo is clearly shown to be part of Serbia?
What deed does England have to prove Wales and Scottland are part of Britain?
If you want to talk about the way civilized people act then start preaching to the Albanians who have stolen someone's territory by using terror and violence.
I bet you would like to evict all the K. Albanians wouldn't you. After all you have some experience on doing that. Could you please tell me what do you want from Kosova? The land or the People??
It needs a lot of work to do! Especially on the K-Serbian side. Once and for all they should stop being puppets of the xenophobes form Belgrade and stop dreaming teh Serbian hegemony over Kosova. As consequence they will not be isolated by their neighbours that are the overwhelm majority.
However, there is a lot of work to do but it is a multi-ethnic society
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=07&dd=13&nav_id=51880
On 9 September 2008 15:56, Another Canadian Serb wrote:
"Currently, Kosovo is full of squatters living on Serbian soil. If Serbia unwillingly has her territory stripped away from her, then she should be financially compensated."
Sorry, I must have missed the memo about US citizens performing massive land squatting in Kosovo. I mean, unless they are US citizens, you wouldn't demand compensation from the USA, right?
ACS: "Jan, what price would you propose that Serbia sell Kosovo for?"
How about peace, stability, and prosperity?
ACS: "Or should Serbia evict these non paying tenants from Kosovo?"
If Serbia thinks that is what serves the Serbian people best, go ahead, be my guest.
Or Serbia could try to dig up old property and land deeds, and work from there to find a way to compensate people that have been robbed of their property. That is what civilized societies usually do.
Do us a favour and stop posting here and go draw some cartoons and let your owm "minorities" in DK take care of the rest. Your country's plight has no sympathies from anyone here or your opinions.
OSCE says that the K-albanian 'pseudo-state' is not a multi-ethnic society. K-albanian camp says otherwise.
Well let's see shall we.
This the same society that has consistently denied serb hospitals free access to essential medicines frequently putting the lives of their patients at risk - patients I might add that include K-albanians?
This the same society that saw a province-wide & orchestrated pogrom against the serb minority 4 years ago?
The same society where serbs, be they members of the K-albanian police service, or isolated teenagers, are attacked by mobs of K-albanians? And this in the north of Kosovo where serbs are a majority?
A multi-ethnic society? Only in the imagination of people like 'Independent', 'Dane' & 'ben'.
Jan Andersen DK:
See you didn't actually comment on the topic at hand. Am curious, do you regard K-albanian 'pseudo-state' as a civilised society?
How about one that uses cluster bombs on &/or near civilian targets, then refuses to clean up the unexploded ordnance left over almost a decade after the event all the while promoting themselves as exemplars of humanity & decency?
And guess who is responsible for the deaths of more women & children in recent history than anyone else on this planet?
Strange that the US & so-called 'republic of Kosovo' are allies isn't it.
When it comes to "re-education", clean up your own home first before looking at your neighbor's.
This is not to say that the Kosovar Albanians' behavior towards the Serbs lately has been an example of tolerance and harmony...but you get my point I hope.
Independent,
where in your post do you mention what the Serbians wanted. You only mention how the US and the EU forced their will upon Serbia. It was the EU's and American foreign policy that first split up the former Yugoslavian states. All else is a domino effect. Every secessionist was able to walk away from the wreck, leaving Serbia to hold the carcass. Where is the compensation from all these wrecks?
Just the fact that the American's have yet to pay reparations, says it all.
Better yet, when are they coming back to clean up there non exploded bombs, from the territory of Serbia.
I wonder why OSCE doesnt complain about Albania not being really multicultural as well. After all the population makeup is roughly the same:)(over 90% MONOCULTURAL)
it took a long time to osce to understand that they were wrong in the way they promoted their policy:translated in albanian this word etnike,has a great emotional power( how many of us have been condamned only for this word,who referred to our dream to be part of the real albania,which in albanian is called the etnik one!) So it was quite a great idea of the osce office to promote /kosova multietnike by translating it in albanian as kosova shume etnike .What a great joke:it means in albanian kosova very and strongly etnike;And indeed kosova was and is strongly albanian! Yes,believe me kosova IS really SHUME ETNIKE!
Albano (# 28),
The fact that Miralem Sulejmani, a muslim, is playing for the Serbian football team, is a clear indication that Serbia is indeed a multi-ethnic society.
for sure...Kosova cannot be multi-ethnical STATE becouse SERBS do not want to integrate isn't it ?
can anybody tell me will sebs in totally wanna be integrated in the world system??
Peggy wrote: "What sort of a deed do you require Serbia to produce to prove ownership?"
I am not asking Serbia to produce any deeds. The whole concept of some state owning some part of the Earth is silly. People own stuff.
I have a house in Denmark, and I have a copy of a Transfer-of-Ownership document verifying that the house and the small ground it is situated on belongs to me. Dated and signed by the Notarius Publicus (some government official/agency).
If Kosovo really is stolen from the Serbian people, then I am sure these people also have similar kind of deeds - papers that prove that in year XXXX they bought a house, at some street address, in some village, somewhere inside Kosovo.
To me, that is the logical starting point when trying to reclaim stolen land: Produce some documents that some way or the other shows that this piece of land really belongs to this or that person.
Next step is to contact the judicial system and get their verdict on who the house belongs too (just like it has been done in Germany, Poland, and possibly other former Nazi-Germany and Soviet-occupied countries, where Jewish families and other refugees in some cases have been successful in reclaiming their old property).
The difficulty here is of course if the judicial system does not recognize the documents - or if the judicial system does not exist. Which leads me to Peters question:
peter, sydney wrote:
"Am curious, do you regard K-albanian 'pseudo-state' as a civilised society?"
I haven't been to Kosovo, peter, so I can't know for sure. My guess is that it is not a civilized society (yet). Maybe 10 years ahead we will see something that resembles a civilized society with a fully working government and government officials that is dedicated to serve all of the people, and not just their political and ethnic friends.
--
"If you want to talk about the way civilized people act then start preaching to the Albanians who have stolen someone's territory by using terror and violence"
Someone else's? You do know that Albanians are the autochtones there right?
How did you 'steal' the territory from the Byzantines, from the Turks and later from the Albanians? Let us know. Also how did you get Vojvodina and Republika Serpska? The territory belongs to the people that live there, and 90% are Albanian.
On 9 September 2008 14:01, Another Canadian Serb wrote:
"I wonder when the USA is going to financially compensate Serbia for her loss in the Kosovo real estate transaction?"
What transaction? Most of what I hear from the Serbian side on this board is "KOSOVO IS SERBIA". If that is true, that Kosovo (still) is part of Serbia, then then is hardly any basis for any compensation, is there?
Or do you disagree? Do you accept that Kosovo is not Serbia any more?
Kosovo is a multiethnic society except one ethnic group who don’t what to participate in building the future of that society.
If Bosniaks, Montenegrins, and Turks are ready to be part and contribute on that society in cooperation with Albanians majority, that doesn’t justified the constant absent behavior and denial Serbs minority choose to live in Kosovo.
Kosovo is multi-ethnic society. It is matter of perception regarding on proportional figures between majority and minority ethnic groups living in Kosovo. It is not realistic to pretend to change these proportional figures. It is tried in a past, but luckily it didn't work.
Talking about integration, only members of Serbian community for one or another reason hesitate to be integrated based on offered standards and possibilities. As for the other ethnic communities, matter of integration is on a level of most European countries.
Dear Serbs, don't make traps you can fall on them...
It needs a lot of work to do! Especially on the K-Serbian side. Once and for all they should stop being puppets of the xenophobes form Belgrade and stop dreaming teh Serbian hegemony over Kosova. As consequence they will not be isolated by their neighbours that are the overwhelm majority.
However, there is a lot of work to do but it is a multi-ethnic society
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=07&dd=13&nav_id=51880
When it comes to "re-education", clean up your own home first before looking at your neighbor's.
This is not to say that the Kosovar Albanians' behavior towards the Serbs lately has been an example of tolerance and harmony...but you get my point I hope.
I wonder when the USA is going to financially compensate Serbia for her loss in the Kosovo real estate transaction?
(Another Canadian Serb, 9 September 2008 14:01)
It was US initiative to force EU to fast track the EU membership for Serbia even without arresting of Karadzic and Mladic in return of Kosovo recognition based on Marti Ahtisari plan, so not full independence. The package included aid and compensation on 3-4 bln dollars. Kostunica wanted more. It turned out that everything what West wanted will be forced upon and no compensation even no aid and other NATO bombing repair help for Serbia because of its refusal to accept new reality in Kosovo.
Kostunica later had no choice but to start singing the old folkloric nationalist songs pretending that Kosovo was not for Sale or for any trade for EU fast entry. So, if you follow the trend – It was Sale offer, and it was trade offer but he refused it. Sometime if you are too greedy you get nothing. That’s what happened.
Do they regret it? – of course yes, but in politic there are too many things you don’t say.
Follow the story of Seselj refusing to vote for SAA in last minute even with “Kosovo as part of Serbia” change. It is simple; they don’t want Tadic to get a deal. They want that deal for themselves.
Look at this trend:
They wanted Kosovo without Albanians – failed. Lets prepare new plan …
They wanted Kosovo with Albanians but to be governed by Serbia – failed. Lets prepare new plan …
They wanted Kosovo with Albanians, to be governed by Albanians but legally part of Serbia so Kosovo pay tax to Serbia and Serbia do business without being taxed (remember Customs offices being burned) – failed. Lets prepare new plan …
They want North of Kosovo being part of Serbia. This plan is still in action. They want to orchestrate the same plan as SO and later want to intervene “to save the civilian lives” and later to annex part of Kosovo each is richest part of Kosovo forgetting the “nationalist, folkloric, historic, religions” justification for south of Kosovo. Can Serbian people who pay tax understand that it is not about them, it is about business and profit for some politician singing folkloric song and not caring for them at all other for power and money?
I bet you would like to evict all the K. Albanians wouldn't you. After all you have some experience on doing that. Could you please tell me what do you want from Kosova? The land or the People??
it took a long time to osce to understand that they were wrong in the way they promoted their policy:translated in albanian this word etnike,has a great emotional power( how many of us have been condamned only for this word,who referred to our dream to be part of the real albania,which in albanian is called the etnik one!) So it was quite a great idea of the osce office to promote /kosova multietnike by translating it in albanian as kosova shume etnike .What a great joke:it means in albanian kosova very and strongly etnike;And indeed kosova was and is strongly albanian! Yes,believe me kosova IS really SHUME ETNIKE!
Do us a favour and stop posting here and go draw some cartoons and let your owm "minorities" in DK take care of the rest. Your country's plight has no sympathies from anyone here or your opinions.
On 9 September 2008 15:56, Another Canadian Serb wrote:
"Currently, Kosovo is full of squatters living on Serbian soil. If Serbia unwillingly has her territory stripped away from her, then she should be financially compensated."
Sorry, I must have missed the memo about US citizens performing massive land squatting in Kosovo. I mean, unless they are US citizens, you wouldn't demand compensation from the USA, right?
ACS: "Jan, what price would you propose that Serbia sell Kosovo for?"
How about peace, stability, and prosperity?
ACS: "Or should Serbia evict these non paying tenants from Kosovo?"
If Serbia thinks that is what serves the Serbian people best, go ahead, be my guest.
Or Serbia could try to dig up old property and land deeds, and work from there to find a way to compensate people that have been robbed of their property. That is what civilized societies usually do.
Or do you disagree? Do you accept that Kosovo is not Serbia any more?
One or the other, please.
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(Jan Andersen, DK, 9 September 2008 15:10)
Yes, you can have both. Kosovo is Serbian and if stolen someone has to pay for it.
Just because someone steals your property doesn't mean that your property becomes the property of the thief. It still remains your property until either you are compensated if it no longer in a condition in which it was stolen or it must be returned.
You go on about deeds and some really silly stuff. What sort of a deed do you require Serbia to produce to prove ownership? How about res 1244 and the map where Kosovo is clearly shown to be part of Serbia?
What deed does England have to prove Wales and Scottland are part of Britain?
If you want to talk about the way civilized people act then start preaching to the Albanians who have stolen someone's territory by using terror and violence.
"If you want to talk about the way civilized people act then start preaching to the Albanians who have stolen someone's territory by using terror and violence"
Someone else's? You do know that Albanians are the autochtones there right?
How did you 'steal' the territory from the Byzantines, from the Turks and later from the Albanians? Let us know. Also how did you get Vojvodina and Republika Serpska? The territory belongs to the people that live there, and 90% are Albanian.
for sure...Kosova cannot be multi-ethnical STATE becouse SERBS do not want to integrate isn't it ?
can anybody tell me will sebs in totally wanna be integrated in the world system??
This is precisely the outcome that the USA desired. The Americans have been very successful in cleansing all Serbs from Kosovo. I wonder when the USA is going to financially compensate Serbia for her loss in the Kosovo real estate transaction?
Jan Andersen,
what part about Serbia owning the property of Kosovo do you not understand?
"Kosovo is Serbia"
Currently, Kosovo is full of squatters living on Serbian soil. If Serbia unwillingly has her territory stripped away from her, then she should be financially compensated.
Jan, what price would you propose that Serbia sell Kosovo for?
Or should Serbia evict these non paying tenants from Kosovo?
Dear Llir Trimi,
how can you say that the Serbs have experience in evicting Albanians from Kosovo. Last i checked, there are no Serbs left in Kosovo. Go spill your propaganda on another message board, preferably an American one.
Serbs cannot even walk in Kosovo and not be killed...how do you expect from them to support independence.I served in Kosovo in 2005.Not good at all.Serbs cannot live there and they don't have where to go.Albanians are using West for their own agenda (to kick out Serbs from Kosovo) and West want to buy everything in Kosovo for cheap prices.Serbs are the one always suffered in Kosovo.And still are!
Seems like Albanians here are forgetting about the Gorans and Roma - many thousands who've fled Kosovo - and those who remain face hardship, racism and abuse.
Plus the small community of Croats has shrunk even further due to attacks and pressure of the Albanians.
There are many others who are quiet about abuse by the Albanians for fear they will be treated even worse. Some Bosniaks have been murdered by Albanians in recent years, for instance.
Not surprisingly, the only ones arguing Kosovo Province is a multiethnic society are the Albanians and their international backers.
If the largest minority has no faith in the institutions, are given no place in society, and are generally regarded as second class citizens by the Albanian community, then, through no invocation of Serbian nationalism or Albanian prejudice, we must agree with the statements of OSCE.
In fact, Kosovo has been little more than a tug of war between Serbs and Albanians since the late nineteenth century. Both side have actively engaged in exclusionarly politics in which their own side is promoted as the lawful owner of the land, while the other is regarded as little more than a temporary interloper. It's always funny to listen to Albanian grievances of prejudice and stigma when they are out of power, and hear them promote themselves as the greatest democratic society outside Habermas' civic square when they are in power.
Independent,
where in your post do you mention what the Serbians wanted. You only mention how the US and the EU forced their will upon Serbia. It was the EU's and American foreign policy that first split up the former Yugoslavian states. All else is a domino effect. Every secessionist was able to walk away from the wreck, leaving Serbia to hold the carcass. Where is the compensation from all these wrecks?
Just the fact that the American's have yet to pay reparations, says it all.
Better yet, when are they coming back to clean up there non exploded bombs, from the territory of Serbia.
I wonder why OSCE doesnt complain about Albania not being really multicultural as well. After all the population makeup is roughly the same:)(over 90% MONOCULTURAL)
OSCE says that the K-albanian 'pseudo-state' is not a multi-ethnic society. K-albanian camp says otherwise.
Well let's see shall we.
This the same society that has consistently denied serb hospitals free access to essential medicines frequently putting the lives of their patients at risk - patients I might add that include K-albanians?
This the same society that saw a province-wide & orchestrated pogrom against the serb minority 4 years ago?
The same society where serbs, be they members of the K-albanian police service, or isolated teenagers, are attacked by mobs of K-albanians? And this in the north of Kosovo where serbs are a majority?
A multi-ethnic society? Only in the imagination of people like 'Independent', 'Dane' & 'ben'.
Jan Andersen DK:
See you didn't actually comment on the topic at hand. Am curious, do you regard K-albanian 'pseudo-state' as a civilised society?
How about one that uses cluster bombs on &/or near civilian targets, then refuses to clean up the unexploded ordnance left over almost a decade after the event all the while promoting themselves as exemplars of humanity & decency?
And guess who is responsible for the deaths of more women & children in recent history than anyone else on this planet?
Strange that the US & so-called 'republic of Kosovo' are allies isn't it.
Peggy wrote: "What sort of a deed do you require Serbia to produce to prove ownership?"
I am not asking Serbia to produce any deeds. The whole concept of some state owning some part of the Earth is silly. People own stuff.
I have a house in Denmark, and I have a copy of a Transfer-of-Ownership document verifying that the house and the small ground it is situated on belongs to me. Dated and signed by the Notarius Publicus (some government official/agency).
If Kosovo really is stolen from the Serbian people, then I am sure these people also have similar kind of deeds - papers that prove that in year XXXX they bought a house, at some street address, in some village, somewhere inside Kosovo.
To me, that is the logical starting point when trying to reclaim stolen land: Produce some documents that some way or the other shows that this piece of land really belongs to this or that person.
Next step is to contact the judicial system and get their verdict on who the house belongs too (just like it has been done in Germany, Poland, and possibly other former Nazi-Germany and Soviet-occupied countries, where Jewish families and other refugees in some cases have been successful in reclaiming their old property).
The difficulty here is of course if the judicial system does not recognize the documents - or if the judicial system does not exist. Which leads me to Peters question:
peter, sydney wrote:
"Am curious, do you regard K-albanian 'pseudo-state' as a civilised society?"
I haven't been to Kosovo, peter, so I can't know for sure. My guess is that it is not a civilized society (yet). Maybe 10 years ahead we will see something that resembles a civilized society with a fully working government and government officials that is dedicated to serve all of the people, and not just their political and ethnic friends.
--
Albano (# 28),
The fact that Miralem Sulejmani, a muslim, is playing for the Serbian football team, is a clear indication that Serbia is indeed a multi-ethnic society.
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