Cheney seeks to bolster Ukraine

No Peter, you do not see it wrong.

Given their common history, the Russians would prefer that the Ukraine be allied with them, but would accept a militarily neutral Ukraine - I am sure.

A neutral Ukraine is precisely what the USA should be aiming for as well if only the USA would stop playing Russian roulette with world peace (no pun intended :).

For those that do not understand Russian history, know that the Ukraine is actually where the Russian state was born (Kievan Rus) and America's attempts to turn it into an explicitly anti-Russian bastion are insane and could push the world into nuclear war.

I hope the "Europeans" are paying attention and do something before it is too late.

The USA's actions of late truly are mind boggling....

The problem with Europe is that ultra-conservatives,like
Cheney,are exploiting divisions within it.Whereas the old Europe left past emnities at the door when they joined the EU,"new" ones
conceived EU as a means of settling old quarells from a position of eminence.For them
countries the cold war never ended and this is why they side with the most reactionary US politicians and concur with their policies.
It is quite possible that leaders like Saakasvili and Yushchenko will raise the tempo with their anti-Russian
rheroric and actions and try to plunge the EU into a confrontational path with Russia.Fortunately,statements
emanating from Berlin & Paris
indicate that both Ukraine and Georgia will not be welcomed neither within EU nor NATO.

This trip is probably a waste of time. Yushchenko has zero percent chance of winning the next elections and Timoshenko will opt to take a similar stance as Voronin of Moldova. This is a good thing, a neutral buffer between Russia and the West is the best thing for Europe. Instead of the US pushing for Ukraine's and Georgia's membership into NATO, they should support the GUAM organization (Georgia - Ukraine - Azerbaijan - Moldova) in becoming developed democracies, yet neutral militarily so as to diffuse these tensions between Europe and Russia.

Sweden, Finland, Austria and others are not in NATO, why should Georgia and Ukraine? These countries can benefit a lot more from maintaining strong relations with the West and strong relations with Russia as a netural buffer, rather than as half-baked allies of the West and a thorn in the side of Russia. Or do I see it wrong?

Taking a divided Ukraine and a chaotic Georgia into NATO are in no one's interests.

Excellent comments by Peter and commentator. There's little more to add what has already been said, save that a compromise needs to be reached between Washington and Moscow. Russia agrees not to interfere in the internal politics of Ukraine and other ex-Soviet states, and America agrees to withdraw support for them joining NATO. I know that goes against the interests of Darth Cheney, but I have no interest in using these countries as proxies against Russia.

Politically sovereign but militarily neutral is the perfect way to go.

On 5 September 2008 13:43, Peter Sudyka wrote:

"Sweden, Finland, Austria and others are not in NATO, why should Georgia and Ukraine? (...) Or do I see it wrong?

Taking a divided Ukraine and a chaotic Georgia into NATO are in no one's interests."

I am afraid you are seeing it wrong Peter.

You might be right, in that in would be in the best interests of the US, the EU, Russia, China, Australia, and every other corner of the world, if Ukraine and Georgia decided to stay neutral and foster good relations with both NATO and Russia.

But it is also totally irrelevant what everyone else wants! The only thing that is relevant is what the Ukrainian and Georgian people want. If they want to apply for membership, if they think that best serves their interests, that is what they should do, and no one should come rolling in with a brigade of heavy tanks and try to change their minds.

Of course, such a decision should not be take lightly, and it should be supported by a clear majority of the people, and not just some West-loving yuppies in the capitals. But if a free and fair referendum on the issue shows something like 65-70 % for a NATO membership, then that is all that counts. Not what would be in the best interest of the rest of the world (except that the current NATO members of course can turn down such a request).
--
--

Peter,

Nobody wants to take Ukraine into NATO against their will. It is up to them. If they don't mind to be - sooner or later - a satellite of an expensionist Russia again than be it. NATO is a free association. Nobody is forced to become a member.
As for Austria, Sweden, Finland only the last one has a common border with Russia.
If they would be as exposed and threatened as Georgia than they would very energetically knock at NATO's door. Even so, witnessing the Russian aggression the foreign minister of Finland, Alexander Stubb raised the necessity for his country to become a NATO member. There are also voices in Sweden for NATO membership. To make the Fins and Swedes more motivated a little Russia "incursion" across the 1,350 km long common border would be enough. Knowing Putin, Medvedev we can almost count on it.
And for Georgia it is everything but chaotic. Russia and some defenders of Russia would love to see it chaotic. But the US - like so often in its history - helps out a small aggressed country with an aid of 1 billion dollars.
And the Georgians having this "existentialist" fear of Russia will be glad to become members of the NATO. It is not a question of if but simply when.
In the mean time the cooling mood of international investors regarding Russia - the withdrawal of some 20 billion dollars in a short time and the related 30% drop of the Russian Stock market will cool a little bit Russian aggressivness versus their neighbors.

On 5 September 2008 13:43, Peter Sudyka wrote:

"Sweden, Finland, Austria and others are not in NATO, why should Georgia and Ukraine? (...) Or do I see it wrong?

Taking a divided Ukraine and a chaotic Georgia into NATO are in no one's interests."

I am afraid you are seeing it wrong Peter.

You might be right, in that in would be in the best interests of the US, the EU, Russia, China, Australia, and every other corner of the world, if Ukraine and Georgia decided to stay neutral and foster good relations with both NATO and Russia.

But it is also totally irrelevant what everyone else wants! The only thing that is relevant is what the Ukrainian and Georgian people want. If they want to apply for membership, if they think that best serves their interests, that is what they should do, and no one should come rolling in with a brigade of heavy tanks and try to change their minds.

Of course, such a decision should not be take lightly, and it should be supported by a clear majority of the people, and not just some West-loving yuppies in the capitals. But if a free and fair referendum on the issue shows something like 65-70 % for a NATO membership, then that is all that counts. Not what would be in the best interest of the rest of the world (except that the current NATO members of course can turn down such a request).
--
--

Peter,

Nobody wants to take Ukraine into NATO against their will. It is up to them. If they don't mind to be - sooner or later - a satellite of an expensionist Russia again than be it. NATO is a free association. Nobody is forced to become a member.
As for Austria, Sweden, Finland only the last one has a common border with Russia.
If they would be as exposed and threatened as Georgia than they would very energetically knock at NATO's door. Even so, witnessing the Russian aggression the foreign minister of Finland, Alexander Stubb raised the necessity for his country to become a NATO member. There are also voices in Sweden for NATO membership. To make the Fins and Swedes more motivated a little Russia "incursion" across the 1,350 km long common border would be enough. Knowing Putin, Medvedev we can almost count on it.
And for Georgia it is everything but chaotic. Russia and some defenders of Russia would love to see it chaotic. But the US - like so often in its history - helps out a small aggressed country with an aid of 1 billion dollars.
And the Georgians having this "existentialist" fear of Russia will be glad to become members of the NATO. It is not a question of if but simply when.
In the mean time the cooling mood of international investors regarding Russia - the withdrawal of some 20 billion dollars in a short time and the related 30% drop of the Russian Stock market will cool a little bit Russian aggressivness versus their neighbors.

No Peter, you do not see it wrong.

Given their common history, the Russians would prefer that the Ukraine be allied with them, but would accept a militarily neutral Ukraine - I am sure.

A neutral Ukraine is precisely what the USA should be aiming for as well if only the USA would stop playing Russian roulette with world peace (no pun intended :).

For those that do not understand Russian history, know that the Ukraine is actually where the Russian state was born (Kievan Rus) and America's attempts to turn it into an explicitly anti-Russian bastion are insane and could push the world into nuclear war.

I hope the "Europeans" are paying attention and do something before it is too late.

The USA's actions of late truly are mind boggling....

This trip is probably a waste of time. Yushchenko has zero percent chance of winning the next elections and Timoshenko will opt to take a similar stance as Voronin of Moldova. This is a good thing, a neutral buffer between Russia and the West is the best thing for Europe. Instead of the US pushing for Ukraine's and Georgia's membership into NATO, they should support the GUAM organization (Georgia - Ukraine - Azerbaijan - Moldova) in becoming developed democracies, yet neutral militarily so as to diffuse these tensions between Europe and Russia.

Sweden, Finland, Austria and others are not in NATO, why should Georgia and Ukraine? These countries can benefit a lot more from maintaining strong relations with the West and strong relations with Russia as a netural buffer, rather than as half-baked allies of the West and a thorn in the side of Russia. Or do I see it wrong?

Taking a divided Ukraine and a chaotic Georgia into NATO are in no one's interests.

Excellent comments by Peter and commentator. There's little more to add what has already been said, save that a compromise needs to be reached between Washington and Moscow. Russia agrees not to interfere in the internal politics of Ukraine and other ex-Soviet states, and America agrees to withdraw support for them joining NATO. I know that goes against the interests of Darth Cheney, but I have no interest in using these countries as proxies against Russia.

Politically sovereign but militarily neutral is the perfect way to go.

The problem with Europe is that ultra-conservatives,like
Cheney,are exploiting divisions within it.Whereas the old Europe left past emnities at the door when they joined the EU,"new" ones
conceived EU as a means of settling old quarells from a position of eminence.For them
countries the cold war never ended and this is why they side with the most reactionary US politicians and concur with their policies.
It is quite possible that leaders like Saakasvili and Yushchenko will raise the tempo with their anti-Russian
rheroric and actions and try to plunge the EU into a confrontational path with Russia.Fortunately,statements
emanating from Berlin & Paris
indicate that both Ukraine and Georgia will not be welcomed neither within EU nor NATO.