Russian MPs back independence for Georgian regions

Seems like my battle-cry "Independence for everyone, twice on Sundays" needs to be a tiny bit. It will now read "Independence for everyone, twice on Mondays".

And now I am looking forward to hear the double-speak from the US and EU about Kosovo being a unique case, and also the double-speak from the Serbian nationalists about international law and order and how South Ossetia and Abkhazia are unique cases.

Any willing to bet on when the number of recognitions for these 2 new countries will match those of Kosovo? Before or after New Year 2009?

relax,
its not an either/or situation.
My reading of the current progressions is that Abkhazia,Ossetia are linked to Kosovo with the following relationship (using the logic the good old democratic and "fair" west),
Independent Ossetia and Abkhazia are a sign of an increasing momentum of Russian
domination in our region, which will of course mean
much more Serb control over Kosovo.
Its not a bargain, its all or nothing as it seams.
The west played dirty and will pay.

I thought that the moral integrity of the Russian stance with regards to Kosovo was too good to be true. Evidently every separatist zone is a "sui generis" if interpreted as so by any major power. They spoke of a precedent, but are causing one as we speak. How are they behaving better than the one they accuse?

So now what stops Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh and others from being "sui generis" cases?

Perhaps the USA and Russia should be excluded from the UNSC, that way we might actually have a chance for peace in the world and not just one's interpretation thereof. Was it not Princip who said "Oh what a tangled web we weave"? Too true!

I am curious to see who else will recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent, or will it just be Russia and Russia Jr. (Belarus)? Time will tell...

Dear Peter,
i guess a lot of people were waiting for smth to justify
a similar blame shift on Russia
as we were all used to do with America/West.

But it is not the same.
The west did what it wanted,
broke any possible law,
recognized Kosovo, and now with Georgia
they were playing the innocent saints!!

Russia on the other hand had warned with all its diplomatic means!

So what should we expect?
An hypocritical west which applies double standards whenever suited and a calm old
wise and lawful Russia which none would take seriously and lash with dirty documentaries (e.g. about racism, poverty, HR, and other cute things)?

My friend that was the model until the Georgia conflict
that suited the west!

Now what Russia has done to Georgia IS NOWHERE similar
what NATO did to Serbia
(hospitals, trains, China embassy... to name a few).

No my friend,
there are not parallel cases at all.

P.S.
Your govts deal for the anti-missile shield was
the west's way to eliminate
the otherwise beautiful Polish
nation.
Not wise.

I guess Serbia is about to find out how truly important they are to the ever loyal Russians. If they support the independence of the regions the only way that will mean anything on the world market is if they can bargain with the west. And what is their bargaining chip???
Of course not until they have the energy deals completely wrapped up.

Relax. This vote is strictly symbolic. The Kremlin has stated that they would only support Abkhazia’s and Ossetia’s independence in context of a UN resolution. Furthermore, Russia has no in their independence and gains nothing by it. The areas are already part of Russia for all intensive purposes, while true independence would open them up to possible outside influence. Unlike the US in Kosovo, Russia does not need outside assistance in the regions. Russia gains nothing by recognizing Abkhazia and Ossetia.

I forgot to mention smth about
numbers.

Googling for Kosovo war yields
about 700,000 results.
Same for Bosnian war.
Googling for Russia Georgia war brings 7,500,000 results
and googling for
Russia Georgia Conflict brings 1,690,000 results!!

They say that the Russian response to sakasvili the western tool was "disproportionate"!!!!

Well the only disproportional thing here is their propaganda.

Bosnian war was based on lies
and movie arts rather than facts.

Why not, after all. Perhaps it is time to draw new borders. Either way, Serbia may win something for itself. As it turns out that unique case is falling apart thus no sui generis can be actually used any longer as an excuse , Serbia should work continuously in order to strengthen its influence in Republika Srpska and afterwards may follow same principle as Kosovo, Abhkazia. Ossetia. No need to mention Northern Kosovo which is de facto under Belgrade’s umbrella and almost part of Serbia. Any outcome suits Serbia, and that is good.

I still fail to see how this helps Russia's hand in defending Serbia's territorial integrity. The territorial integrity of both Serbia and Georgia needs to be honored.

Peter,
the manipulation of statistics (or better to say just "numbers") alongside with massive falsifications and neoliberal,leftish rhetoric have been the main methods of the propaganda coordinators in the western hemisphere.

Numbers matter my friend.
No american would ever allow his government to bomb a european nation for 2,000 dead
terrorists.
No arab or afghan mudjahedin would head for bosnia to join the Handzar division because
20 women claimed they were raped.
And the numbers manipulation examples go on and on.

So simply numbers matter.

Now on the issue of Russia vs Georgia (West), again
NO, Russia didnt act like USA.

If USA was supporting order and international law, and kept loyal to this principle,
then any action of Russia against Georgia should be condemned.
If Russia recognized Abkhazia
and Ossetia-Alania the day after Kosovar Albanians declared their UDI, then both
USA and Russia should be condemned.

But what we have here, is a Russia defending international law, while the west was trying to humiliate her in every possible way,
and waving done what they please in Kosovo,Iraq,afganistan,etc...

So we cannot equate Russia with the West under no means.

As far as the shield in poland is concerned,
then i must say i doubt
the pregnant women or the citizens in the Nis market
or the train passengers were
Milosevic supporters, but
they got killed.

We are all responsible for
our "Democracies" if we want
to at least survive.

I am curious to see who else will recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent, or will it just be Russia and Russia Jr. (Belarus)? Time will tell...
(Peter Sudyka, 25 August

Let me try to extinguish your curiosity about recognition of these "two republics"
I don't really think any of the influental countries in the would ever recognise these two "republics". By influental countries I mean USA and EU. These two regions are ANNEXED by Russia and it is as simple as that. I personally do not agree what Shakashvili tried to do to take over these two provinces by force. Firstly he should have known EARLIER whether he had the guts for such action before being humiliated by Russia at his homeland. Russian ambassador to NATO talked about "the morality" of this war on Russia. You as a Pole should know how "moral" is Russian army in the war.
If Georgia feels strongly about these two breakaway provinces then either puts up a fight like Afganistan against Russia or shut up. That is how I see it. Is it worthy fighting for? That is a question for the Georgian people to decide.

The "Bargain" is going on...Some in the west are opposing but the majority in Eu agree...Give Russia in his backyard a green light and the balkans are a Eu BUSINESS....this is the future...

"Ossetia and Abkhazia are a sign of an increasing momentum of Russian
domination in our region, which will of course mean
much more Serb control over Kosovo. "
Huh? US /EU will let Russia stick its nose in the Balkans? It will never happen. Russia is too small and their oil is running out too. http://www.kansascity.com/451/story/763829.html

Sergei, you have my vote for this comment.
I don't think either that Abkhazia and S Ossetia will ever get independence in the full meaning of the word and a UNSC resolution on that we all know will never pass just like that.
It will be either a perpetous "peacekeeping" limbo with maybe some buffer zone or inside Russia proper.
And here I agree with Mike "I still fail to see how this helps Russia's hand in defending Serbia's territorial integrity."

Pyrros

"Now what Russia has done to Georgia IS NOWHERE similar
what NATO did to Serbia
(hospitals, trains, China embassy... to name a few)."

Russia also bombed civilian targets, killing and wounding innocent civilians. They are no better, human tragedy should not be measured in terms of numbers/statistics.

Was it not Stalin who said "You kill one person it's a tragedy, you kill ten thousand people it a statistic"?

"No my friend,
there are not parallel cases at all."

No two cases are parallel if you nitpick reasons for them to be, but the underlying principle is the same and the "facts" used to back either up are simply opinions with general consensus. Politics is beyond normal, human logic, Russia is no better at all.

"Your govts deal for the anti-missile shield was
the west's way to eliminate
the otherwise beautiful Polish
nation."

The actions of a few politicians does not represent Poland or its people.

EA

"If Georgia feels strongly about these two breakaway provinces then either puts up a fight like Afganistan against Russia or shut up. That is how I see it. Is it worthy fighting for? That is a question for the Georgian people to decide."

The same kind of question can be addressed to the Serbs, however the question to you as an Albanian is: if a people do not want to live under the rule of another people of another culture and have been given reason not to trust them, should they be forced to live under them in the name of international law and territorial sovereignty?

Sergei

"The Kremlin has stated that they would only support Abkhazia’s and Ossetia’s independence in context of a UN resolution."

I hope that this will be the case if Russia does not wish to lose all credibility with its arguments for backing international law/territorial sovereignty regarding Kosovo.

Though looking at how Russia aimed to get a UNSC resolution justifying an invasion of Georgia, I do not see Russia taking anything the rest of the UNSC says seriously. America did it, why shouldn't Russia, are they better?

Peter,
One thing I do strongly agree with you on and that is the US-Russia influence in the UNSC.
The security council is a totally ineffective system as long as it has a veto system for the major powers.
This means there can be no resolutions against 5 countries. So they pretty much have free reign in the field of world politics.

The other big issue is how this affects Serbia's desire to go to the ICJ. Unless the court opinions in favor of the west argument that Kosovo is a unique situation then any ruling in favor of Serbia would be a ruling against Russia in the Georgian provinces.

"Ossetia and Abkhazia are a sign of an increasing momentum of Russian
domination in our region, which will of course mean
much more Serb control over Kosovo. "
Huh? US /EU will let Russia stick its nose in the Balkans? It will never happen. Russia is too small and their oil is running out too. http://www.kansascity.com/451/story/763829.html

I thought that the moral integrity of the Russian stance with regards to Kosovo was too good to be true. Evidently every separatist zone is a "sui generis" if interpreted as so by any major power. They spoke of a precedent, but are causing one as we speak. How are they behaving better than the one they accuse?

So now what stops Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh and others from being "sui generis" cases?

Perhaps the USA and Russia should be excluded from the UNSC, that way we might actually have a chance for peace in the world and not just one's interpretation thereof. Was it not Princip who said "Oh what a tangled web we weave"? Too true!

I am curious to see who else will recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent, or will it just be Russia and Russia Jr. (Belarus)? Time will tell...

The "Bargain" is going on...Some in the west are opposing but the majority in Eu agree...Give Russia in his backyard a green light and the balkans are a Eu BUSINESS....this is the future...

I am curious to see who else will recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent, or will it just be Russia and Russia Jr. (Belarus)? Time will tell...
(Peter Sudyka, 25 August

Let me try to extinguish your curiosity about recognition of these "two republics"
I don't really think any of the influental countries in the would ever recognise these two "republics". By influental countries I mean USA and EU. These two regions are ANNEXED by Russia and it is as simple as that. I personally do not agree what Shakashvili tried to do to take over these two provinces by force. Firstly he should have known EARLIER whether he had the guts for such action before being humiliated by Russia at his homeland. Russian ambassador to NATO talked about "the morality" of this war on Russia. You as a Pole should know how "moral" is Russian army in the war.
If Georgia feels strongly about these two breakaway provinces then either puts up a fight like Afganistan against Russia or shut up. That is how I see it. Is it worthy fighting for? That is a question for the Georgian people to decide.

Seems like my battle-cry "Independence for everyone, twice on Sundays" needs to be a tiny bit. It will now read "Independence for everyone, twice on Mondays".

And now I am looking forward to hear the double-speak from the US and EU about Kosovo being a unique case, and also the double-speak from the Serbian nationalists about international law and order and how South Ossetia and Abkhazia are unique cases.

Any willing to bet on when the number of recognitions for these 2 new countries will match those of Kosovo? Before or after New Year 2009?

I guess Serbia is about to find out how truly important they are to the ever loyal Russians. If they support the independence of the regions the only way that will mean anything on the world market is if they can bargain with the west. And what is their bargaining chip???
Of course not until they have the energy deals completely wrapped up.

relax,
its not an either/or situation.
My reading of the current progressions is that Abkhazia,Ossetia are linked to Kosovo with the following relationship (using the logic the good old democratic and "fair" west),
Independent Ossetia and Abkhazia are a sign of an increasing momentum of Russian
domination in our region, which will of course mean
much more Serb control over Kosovo.
Its not a bargain, its all or nothing as it seams.
The west played dirty and will pay.

Dear Peter,
i guess a lot of people were waiting for smth to justify
a similar blame shift on Russia
as we were all used to do with America/West.

But it is not the same.
The west did what it wanted,
broke any possible law,
recognized Kosovo, and now with Georgia
they were playing the innocent saints!!

Russia on the other hand had warned with all its diplomatic means!

So what should we expect?
An hypocritical west which applies double standards whenever suited and a calm old
wise and lawful Russia which none would take seriously and lash with dirty documentaries (e.g. about racism, poverty, HR, and other cute things)?

My friend that was the model until the Georgia conflict
that suited the west!

Now what Russia has done to Georgia IS NOWHERE similar
what NATO did to Serbia
(hospitals, trains, China embassy... to name a few).

No my friend,
there are not parallel cases at all.

P.S.
Your govts deal for the anti-missile shield was
the west's way to eliminate
the otherwise beautiful Polish
nation.
Not wise.

Why not, after all. Perhaps it is time to draw new borders. Either way, Serbia may win something for itself. As it turns out that unique case is falling apart thus no sui generis can be actually used any longer as an excuse , Serbia should work continuously in order to strengthen its influence in Republika Srpska and afterwards may follow same principle as Kosovo, Abhkazia. Ossetia. No need to mention Northern Kosovo which is de facto under Belgrade’s umbrella and almost part of Serbia. Any outcome suits Serbia, and that is good.

I still fail to see how this helps Russia's hand in defending Serbia's territorial integrity. The territorial integrity of both Serbia and Georgia needs to be honored.

Relax. This vote is strictly symbolic. The Kremlin has stated that they would only support Abkhazia’s and Ossetia’s independence in context of a UN resolution. Furthermore, Russia has no in their independence and gains nothing by it. The areas are already part of Russia for all intensive purposes, while true independence would open them up to possible outside influence. Unlike the US in Kosovo, Russia does not need outside assistance in the regions. Russia gains nothing by recognizing Abkhazia and Ossetia.

Pyrros

"Now what Russia has done to Georgia IS NOWHERE similar
what NATO did to Serbia
(hospitals, trains, China embassy... to name a few)."

Russia also bombed civilian targets, killing and wounding innocent civilians. They are no better, human tragedy should not be measured in terms of numbers/statistics.

Was it not Stalin who said "You kill one person it's a tragedy, you kill ten thousand people it a statistic"?

"No my friend,
there are not parallel cases at all."

No two cases are parallel if you nitpick reasons for them to be, but the underlying principle is the same and the "facts" used to back either up are simply opinions with general consensus. Politics is beyond normal, human logic, Russia is no better at all.

"Your govts deal for the anti-missile shield was
the west's way to eliminate
the otherwise beautiful Polish
nation."

The actions of a few politicians does not represent Poland or its people.

EA

"If Georgia feels strongly about these two breakaway provinces then either puts up a fight like Afganistan against Russia or shut up. That is how I see it. Is it worthy fighting for? That is a question for the Georgian people to decide."

The same kind of question can be addressed to the Serbs, however the question to you as an Albanian is: if a people do not want to live under the rule of another people of another culture and have been given reason not to trust them, should they be forced to live under them in the name of international law and territorial sovereignty?

Sergei

"The Kremlin has stated that they would only support Abkhazia’s and Ossetia’s independence in context of a UN resolution."

I hope that this will be the case if Russia does not wish to lose all credibility with its arguments for backing international law/territorial sovereignty regarding Kosovo.

Though looking at how Russia aimed to get a UNSC resolution justifying an invasion of Georgia, I do not see Russia taking anything the rest of the UNSC says seriously. America did it, why shouldn't Russia, are they better?

Sergei, you have my vote for this comment.
I don't think either that Abkhazia and S Ossetia will ever get independence in the full meaning of the word and a UNSC resolution on that we all know will never pass just like that.
It will be either a perpetous "peacekeeping" limbo with maybe some buffer zone or inside Russia proper.
And here I agree with Mike "I still fail to see how this helps Russia's hand in defending Serbia's territorial integrity."

Peter,
the manipulation of statistics (or better to say just "numbers") alongside with massive falsifications and neoliberal,leftish rhetoric have been the main methods of the propaganda coordinators in the western hemisphere.

Numbers matter my friend.
No american would ever allow his government to bomb a european nation for 2,000 dead
terrorists.
No arab or afghan mudjahedin would head for bosnia to join the Handzar division because
20 women claimed they were raped.
And the numbers manipulation examples go on and on.

So simply numbers matter.

Now on the issue of Russia vs Georgia (West), again
NO, Russia didnt act like USA.

If USA was supporting order and international law, and kept loyal to this principle,
then any action of Russia against Georgia should be condemned.
If Russia recognized Abkhazia
and Ossetia-Alania the day after Kosovar Albanians declared their UDI, then both
USA and Russia should be condemned.

But what we have here, is a Russia defending international law, while the west was trying to humiliate her in every possible way,
and waving done what they please in Kosovo,Iraq,afganistan,etc...

So we cannot equate Russia with the West under no means.

As far as the shield in poland is concerned,
then i must say i doubt
the pregnant women or the citizens in the Nis market
or the train passengers were
Milosevic supporters, but
they got killed.

We are all responsible for
our "Democracies" if we want
to at least survive.

I forgot to mention smth about
numbers.

Googling for Kosovo war yields
about 700,000 results.
Same for Bosnian war.
Googling for Russia Georgia war brings 7,500,000 results
and googling for
Russia Georgia Conflict brings 1,690,000 results!!

They say that the Russian response to sakasvili the western tool was "disproportionate"!!!!

Well the only disproportional thing here is their propaganda.

Bosnian war was based on lies
and movie arts rather than facts.

Peter,
One thing I do strongly agree with you on and that is the US-Russia influence in the UNSC.
The security council is a totally ineffective system as long as it has a veto system for the major powers.
This means there can be no resolutions against 5 countries. So they pretty much have free reign in the field of world politics.

The other big issue is how this affects Serbia's desire to go to the ICJ. Unless the court opinions in favor of the west argument that Kosovo is a unique situation then any ruling in favor of Serbia would be a ruling against Russia in the Georgian provinces.