Friday, 22.08.2008.
09:35
A French official says that Kosovo is "a unique case" and that it cannot represent a precedent.
Izvor: Tanjug
pre 15 godina
"For the stability of the planet, you should have discussed partition. Your people are only slightly better at treating their minorities than Serbs are, there’s no moral justification for you ruling over the Serbian areas of Kosovo"
Mathew,
It's the Serbs that do not want. They can take the North and give 100,000 Albanians and Presevo Valley, right next to Kosova. They are being discriminated as well and unemployment is 70%. Serbs want it all.
pre 15 godina
Doni, if after all those centuries you haven't left a trace how can you prove you were there in any substantial numbers at all?
In case of Serbs, there is plenty of proof. Centuries old churches and monasteries.
This proves Serbian ownership of the land.
How can you tell us that Serbs had Kosovo only recently? Who built on that land for centuries then?
I would love to see a map of Albania where it shows Kosovo being part of it. Now how about you guys show us that and I will agree that Kosovo is indeed Albanian.
pre 15 godina
to smile
You "graciously" let go of Greek territory? Would that be Aegean Macedonia? Apparently you don't know much history. That land like Kosovo and all of southern Serbia had been hellenized before the Slavs arrived there. Those territories have belonged to a Greek statehood (Byzantine Empire) long before they belonged to a Serbian statehood. There were probably Albanians of Illyrian descent living there when the Slavs arrived but this is not documented.
Anyway I think the Greeks are making a big mistake in supporting Serbia against Albania, given that Serbia (Yugoslavia) tried to steal Macedonia (Aegean Macedonia is the real Macedonia, inhabited by ancient Macedonians as opposed to FYROM which has been inhabited by Illyrians and Thracians) from Greece and Serbia recognizes the name Macedonia for FYROM. Greeks and Albanians should stand united against Serbs and 'Macedonians'
pre 15 godina
Ben,
Serbs were a majority in Krajina and many parts of Bosnia BEFORE the wars of the 90’s, and even more so before they suffered genocide in WWII. I have no idea where you get the idea that they were not. If the fact that ethnic cleansing was committed by some Serbs somehow invalidates this, then you’re saying Kosovo doesn’t deserve independence either since some elements of the Albanian population in Kosovo engaged in ethnic cleansing after the NATO bombing.
So now you’re adding oppression, being European and having a minimum of 1.8 million people to the requirements for being unique?
As far as being European, that enforces my argument that it’s a racist policy.
However, taking all that into account, since Turkey is considered European, the Kurds still have a better and stronger case on every single item you mentioned. They have 30 million to your 10, and they don’t even have one country. 30,000 people have died in the conflict in recent years in Turkey alone, 15 times the amount that led to the NATO bombing in Kosovo. They’ve had chemical weapons used against them by Saddam, a form of oppression you never had to experience. They’ve been fighting for independence for centuries, far longer than your people.
Nothing you’ve said makes Kosovo unique in any way. Those are just arguments to support Kosovo independence or arguments against Serb areas being treated in the same manner (racism perhaps?).
“Now you will take other cases arround teh world but I could say let them make their case.”
I think you’re basically admitting there really is in reality nothing whatsoever unique about Kosovo, in fact it closely shares many similarities to other regions in the immediate vicinity, and other areas of the world have even stronger arguments supporting their independence drives. You seem to be confusing the difference between being “Unique” and being morally entitled to independence.
You’re not “unique” but the problem is your international partners have made it a requirement that it must be “unique” so it does not affect the stability of the rest of the world. Already we’re seeing the effects of the abandonment of the negotiating process.
For the stability of the planet, you should have discussed partition. Your people are only slightly better at treating their minorities than Serbs are, there’s no moral justification for you ruling over the Serbian areas of Kosovo. You’ve proven over the last decade that you’re just as capable of dishing out the vengeance as are the Serbs.
BTW Ben, by constantly using the term “teh” you give away your age. My kids type like that and so do trolls. Do not feed the Trolls.
pre 15 godina
at SMILE,
but if its true then albanians really are a unique case. what other nation in europe lived in an area for 8000 years, or indeed 4000, or 2000, without creating a state, a culture, an army, producing artists and scientist and above all national physical monuments. dont get me wrong, i believe you that you were there all the time. but where is that albanian church, mosque, temple, bridge built by an albanian, that watchtower, anything, that trace which every nation leaves when they live in a place and own it?
(smile, 23 August 2008 22:02)
do you excpect Illyrians to have churches,mosques?? do you know where was Jesus in that time? in his father...
About monuments and bridges, do you think they resisted the invasions including the slav one, which destroy everything in order to claim the land as empty.
As long as we were living there, the land is ours. what we do with it is our problem, not yours.
Illyrians had a country and that was Roman Empire=EU today. But serbs came along and they destroy everything was build, and they build serb churches instead, lots of them, because we needed more and more churches, they are very usefull.
pre 15 godina
Dear Mr. Frederic Desagneaux...your comment is insulting and not at all becoming of an intelligent person. Let me ask ...was Srpska Krajina a unique case, in your mind?
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Matthew, 23 August 2008 19:58)
Matthew, you entire post about Krjina and Bosnia fails in front of the point 3.
Serbs had no territorial continuity- hence they had to ethnically clean the land.
So it makes no sense what you say.
Moreover, they fail in front of point 1 too.
Basques are in aq much more similar situation with Kosova than any other case in Europe. But they too fail to enter in the unique case- they are not oppressed, and far far from what K-Albanians suffered with Serbia.
This douesn't mean that I don't support Basque cause. I think Spain (who guess what does not recognize Kosova) should approach this issue as Canada: allow Basques in referendum to declare if they want to be independent or be part of Spain. Basques are mature ppl hey now what is teh best fro them. And this wil strengthen teh >Spanish democracy.
Point 2 should be specified. The majority needs to be assured in relative and absolute terms. The allaged minority needs to make a consistent % in the country and needs to be in larg number (in lichtenstein is easy to be majority in relative terms).
Hence, the Irish in north Ireland fail under point 2.
I would limit for now in Europe. Now you will take other cases arround teh world but I could say let them make their case.
pre 15 godina
its unique because i say so? thats a fine intellectual argument and also shows how french education pays off :) but a good argument too. russia is saying the same south ossetia and kosovo are nothing alike, in other words, we support serbian integrity but not georgian, because south ossetia is a unique case. they already came up with exactly how that is, cant remember the details:)) so, kosovo is a unique case, cechnya is a unique case, south ossetia is another, not to mention lovely abkhazia. you see? the meaning's been taken out of international order and relations. its funny when you say all this but its deadly dangerous for so many people all over the globe.
as for this
'If you take a look at how Kosovo was awarded to Serbia in 1913, you will see that there were 2, not 1 plans of the international community as to which country Kosovo should belong, Albania or Serbia.'
the first time albanian state emerged in all of human history was in 1913. that is a historical fact. albanian tribes lived in the territory of today's albania but they never organized themselves in anything resembling a state. so in 1913, everything albania got was given to it by the great powers as a gift. on the other hand, kosovo is serbian heartland since the middle ages. somehow shortly after we slavs arrived here, we managed to organize ourselves into a state such as they were then, and then into a kindgom, and then into an empire. after the turkish invasion we regained our statehood and our nation built back modern serbia. later on some of our land was also regained, certainly our national core, kosovo. but of course we graciously let go of the whole of bosnia, the whole of macedonia, and much of greece :)
this is quite simple. its historical facts.
also i notice some serbs argue with albanians when albanians say that they're not really albanians but ilyrians. who have been in the balkans for i think, 8000 years? personally i have no problem with this. so be it. but if its true then albanians really are a unique case. what other nation in europe lived in an area for 8000 years, or indeed 4000, or 2000, without creating a state, a culture, an army, producing artists and scientist and above all national physical monuments. dont get me wrong, i believe you that you were there all the time. but where is that albanian church, mosque, temple, bridge built by an albanian, that watchtower, anything, that trace which every nation leaves when they live in a place and own it?
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Ben,
Clearly Serbs were a majority in Krajina and large parts of Bosnia, and did not use force to attain that. In fact Serbs were the victims of genocide in WWII in those regions which was a major contributing factor in Serbs going from the largest ethnicity in all of Bosnia, to the second largest. Might I also remind you that Albanians ethnically cleansed roughly HALF the Serbian population in Kosovo after the NATO bombing, so according to your own rules, you do not deserve independence, especially in those areas that had a Serb population before the bombing. Croatia did the same in Krajina AND The Federation in Bosnia has only a 2% minority population, while RS has a 12% minority population. Who are the worse offenders? Who are the biggest victims of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans?
You then go on the proclaim “only” indigenous populations deserve the right to self determination without defining just what those conditions should be. 1,000 years? 10,000 years? 100,000 years?
Regardless, your situation is hardly unique in that respect either, the Basque, the Irish, the Kurds, all native populations present before the country that rules them now were in place or existed. According to your definition, you clearly support the right of the Hispanic population in California-Texas to seek independence.
I honestly don’t think you actually understand what the definition of “unique” is.
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(Gordo, 23 August 2008 16:16)
Lets take for criteria:
1. Autochthonism
2. Majority
3. teh majority should have not been produced with teh force (by by R. Srpska)
if you fulfil all these 3 conditions than you can be independet if not you are minority.
If you fulfil all conditions and you are still treated as minority- that makes you unique case- KOSOVA.
pre 15 godina
Gordo, this is IF you believe that Kosovo was serbian in the first place. If you take a look at how Kosovo was awarded to Serbia in 1913, you will see that there were 2, not 1 plans of the international community as to which country Kosovo should belong, Albania or Serbia. There was a Russian-French plan which awarded Kosovo to Serbia and there was an Austro-Hungarian and Italian plan which awarded Kosovo to Albania.
Kosovo then was awarded to Serbia as a gift to a christian state, from the territories of a crumbling empire (Turkish Empire). Thus the conclusion here is that Kosovo never represented a consensus among the international community as a serbian territory. This is diffrent from you analogy of Paris and its foreign population.
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I wrote a comment, a comment in which I agreed with brumsila and added some arguments, but as it could have been expected, it was censored. ( and of course it was not censored because there was any use of derogatory speech - there wasn´t any )
if you bring up arguments against the supporters of that puppy-toy-"republjik" - you get censored.
but knowing that this is B92, and who is paying, it´s no mystery anymore.
real journalism is something completely different.
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OK France, so when a minority becomes an overwhelming majority, then they are allowed to succeed? Look at Paris today with its huge Muslim population. With a huge birthrate compared to Christian French, then they should be allowed their own Muslim state in France in a few years.
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According to French and German books KiM population in the 16th century accounted 3% of Albanians.
no comment
(rain, 23 August 2008 01:08)
Rain pls don't be so jealous and share with us these BOOKS.
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It's pitiful to listen to the Albanians trying to describe why Kosovo is a unique case. They try to create a case which doesn't exist, in keeping with the US pushed idea of "uniqueness".
You'll lose the GA vote at the UN, the decision at the ICJ and ultimately US and EU support. it might take many years, but Kosovo ISN'T a state and never will be. The best you can hope for is for Serbia to recognise Kosovo and partition it, but if you do that you'll be kissing goodbye to the only real source of income Trepca.
However you look at it, you Albanians have lost and Serbia cannot lose.
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“Is your justification for not supporting the Albanians in their unique case because they are white, a racist policy in itself? (Doni, 22 August 2008 18:55)”
Doni, I’ve posted literally thousands of times on B92 and my views are always consistent. I support the partition of Kosovo and always have for the same reason I support RS, Krajina, Kurdistan, Ossetia etc. Of course you take the intellectually lazy route and did not address the issue, how is Kosovo unique, what sets it apart from the other conflicts in the world? Certainly your people deserve to live free of oppression, but why not us? Why not the rest of the world?
Having one policy non-Serb Europeans, and a completely opposite one for the rest of the world does smack of racism I think. Why do Americans not care when millions die in Africa, yet a few thousand deaths in Europe are suddenly the “worst crimes since WWII”?
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"Kosovo is certainly a unique case, but since it was done to the Serbs, Albanians have lost any rights they had previously to govern themselves let alone their victims."
Slight problem, the "organ" lies are just that, lies with ZERO proof. This, and dozens of such cases, however are true:
"Mr Popaj and a two-year-old boy, believed to have been shielded by his mother, were the only survivors. Seven women and three children died.
Leaving the bodies lying on the riverbank, the Serb forces moved on and shot at least seven elderly villagers in a nearby field."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/inside_kosovo/bela_cerkva.stm
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(Milan Radosavljevic, 23 August 2008 01:14)
The French and the rest of the world says that the Kosovar road to independence lays no foundation to others which seek statehood. The Serbs say that the Kosovars have laid a foundation for "separatists" as a precedent. The Kosovars say that they are unique. Why does it matter who says it? You Serbs claim that Kosova is your territory, and continually aspire to former Greater Serbia. Just because you say Kosova is yours, it does not make it yours. I could go tomorrow in Washington and proclaim it independent, it doesn't mean I have my own state. Until Serbia has physical control over Kosova (Kosovo) and has its' presence through military and legislative control Kosova will be independent.
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Why oh Why do they say Kosovo is so unique in this world full of seperatist movements?
its unique because they say it is. thats all----its the way dictators phrase things. Kosovo is unique because they want it to be. Nothing else.
It always falls back to the meaning of is-----we have the clinton years to thank.
Kosovo is totally unique----lets believe that until south ossetia raises its national flag and the ETA places another bomb.
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The only thing unique about Kosovo is that this is where they harvested human organs for a mighty profit.
If you count this then yes, Kosovo is certainly a unique case, but since it was done to the Serbs, Albanians have lost any rights they had previously to govern themselves let alone their victims.
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According to French and German books KiM population in the 16th century accounted 3% of Albanians.
no comment
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On 22 August 2008 16:18, limited wrote:
"Secessionist terrorist/guerilla actions, no matter which super power supports it, cannot be rewarded and certainly cannot be seen a unique."
One mans terrorists, is another mans freedom fighters.
I am sure Nazi occupation forces in Denmark regarded our resistance fighters as evil terrorists running around blowing up rail roads and weapons factories.
So be careful before you label some group as terrorists - history sometimes as a strange way of redefining labels.
--
pre 15 godina
"what evidence exists that Albanians were even in Kosovo before the 17th century? "
Check Dusan's code how Catholic Albanians faced death unless they converted and how they were kept in servitude.
Suppose Albanians moved to Kosova in 1710: How can it be "illegal immigration" if Kosova was not part of Serbia and Serbia didn't even exist? Russia didn't get your autonomy until 1800's and Independence came much later.
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On 22 August 2008 14:53, Truth & Heart wrote:
"Republica Srbska’s borders are war borders and never existed before."
All borders, everywhere, are war borders. It is just a matter of finding out which war.
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If the French opinion were truly analyzed it would be called-Orwellian----but thats a bad description.
Who cares what the French think-most serbs remember the french Mirage jets dropping bombs on our bridgeS.
Nothing else matters, im tired of the french and thier speedos. Sarkozy should concentrate on his tan and stop pretending hes an independent european leader.
pre 15 godina
If France declares Kosovo to be a unique case, does it imply that they will not try to incorporate Wallonia, now its population declared to be interested? Changing sovereignty at the demand of the population we will not do twice? May be the Belgians can say something too about the uniqueness of Kosovo.May be they can get French Flandres back, ethnically cleansed by Louis XIV from any Dutch speaking people.
pre 15 godina
"Which means you aren't even from the same race."
ever heard of genetic drift, bottleneck or founder effect? Plus, if we are different, how come you Serbs say that K-Albs came from Albania? All people came from Africa, the one Albs are identified with was created same 8000 years ago--in the Balkans. Where were Serbs 8000 years ago?
Njemanja, Yes Serbs built a lot of churches...by mining Kosova minerals. Apparently a church for very 4-5 people since K-population was in tens of thousands for centuries. Why? To say "it's ours," that's why
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"As you are aware, Kosovo is a unique case and we have always said that it will not represent a precedent," Frederic Desagneaux said.
-Who is aware? I am not aware since there was no not a one valuable explanation that would convince me in its uniqueness. So called European political elite dearly fails to give proper explanation on the Kosovo matter, thus sticking to the newly invented imaginary term “unique case” only goes to reveal what is the highest “intellectual” capacity of the European leaders.
Politically Correct,
“Why does this bother you too much Jovan. If linguistically, anthropologically, archeologically and topologically there is no doubt of Ilyrian-Arberia-Shqiperia (Albania) link, why this undeniable truth hurt you so much”
Jovan is not bothered, nor anyone of us but he is just trying to tell you how ridiculous your claims are. Besides, Albanians have a long tradition of assuming other cultures as their own and seems that that phenomenon is passed on Fryomians which is very explainable by the fact that they live quite close to each other thus begun, due to many influential factors, to share same values. Unfortunately these things happen.
I agree, claiming Alexander the Great by Slavic Macedonians as their own is as bizarre as claiming Serbian medieval Orthodox Churches in Kosovo being of Albanian Illyrian origin (claimed by K-Albanians). This newly phenomenon appeared just few days after the UDI, in about the same period of time as the story about the polar bears living in Shar Mountain.
pre 15 godina
Olf,
If you live in Kosovo. . .get in your car, drive in any direction and count the number of round-domed buildings with crosses on top of them (ignore the ones that your people destroyed).
These structures are called Serbian Orthodox churches (or monasteries). They were built between the 12th and 20th centuries and number well above 1,000. . .a testament to the Serbian presence in Kosovo for over half a millenium!
Now aside from:
* illegal immigration from Albania and
* the astoundingly poor practise of birth control
. . .what evidence exists that Albanians were even in Kosovo before the 17th century?
Changing an "o" to an "a" doesn't make my province your country!
pre 15 godina
So please someone explain just why Kosovo is so extremely different from all the other very similar conflicts that rage everyday across the globe?
Oh yeah, maybe its because its in Europe and the Albanians are white. So simple racism is clearly the reason for the claim that it’s “unique”. Should we really be supporting such racist policies?
(Matthew, 22 August 2008 17:14)
I dont know who is being racist about it?
Let me ask you one question: Is your justification for not supporting the Albanians in their unique case because they are white, a racist policy in itself?
Oh yes. . .the whimsical Illyrians. Forebearers of all that is decent in this world.
(Nemanja, Connecticut, 22 August 2008 17:33)
About the Illyrian connection, if Illyrians were not so great and "all what is decent in this world" then why does it bother serbs so much?
Unlike the waves of migrations of the Slavs in Balkans which is verified by facts and recorded in history, there has never been recorded in history any migration of Albanians, thus making the Albanian-Illyrian connection 100% true. Thus Illyrians cannot have disapeared, they just transformed themselves in the Albanians of today over centuries. Even the western historians or the world call us with the word "Albanians" which in itself implies to a reognition of our Illyrian ancestory and heritage, while we call ourselves Shqiptar. Thus it is first the world which makes the claim we are Illyrians, can you convince them otherwise.
sorry for long argument.
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it still stays the same thing: you are definitely not connected to the ancient Illyrians.
(Jovan, 22 August 2008 15:49)
Why do you waste your time.
It is scientifically known and noticed the arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans.
There is no proof of the arrival of the Albanians. Not a single one.
The same Greeks and Romans would have noticed our arrival as they have noticed yours- don’t you think.
Beside my language proves me who I am and I am Illyrian.
Nations are not randomly distributed in the space there are historical motives why we Albos live in south and you Serbs in north.
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Dragan,
I have to remind you that history of Europe and of the mankind in Europe counts from centuries back, please feel free to chase your roots and consult the book of Dobrica Cosic “The Divisions” to help you our on this issue
As for Kosovo being Serbian for hundred years, I say that you are WRONG.
pre 15 godina
Republic of Kosova (Kosovo) is the product of the breakup of Yugoslavia. There will never be another Kosova, there will be others that have characteristics and might resemble but Kosova is in no way or shape a precedent.
pre 15 godina
This article says nothing substantial. It just reports the opinions of one individual; an opinion that is increasingly losing its legitimacy as more areas of the world seek to enter the parastate status that Kosovo is now in.
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“The crimes committed in Kosova against its Albanian population in the last war and across the last century means that Kosova is unique and this is why US and allies have supported Kosovo. (Nehat, 22 August 2008 12:52)”
So the crimes against the Kurds, like Saddam killing 5,000 of them in a single chemical weapons attack don’t count as crimes or aren’t severe enough? If you’re going to base it on crimes committed against your population, then you have a very weak argument. Just 2,000 Albanians were killed before NATO decided to bomb and take Kosovo away from Serbia (Sounds EXACTLY like what just happened in Ossetia with 1500-2000 killed but in a couple of days, not years). Kurds have been fighting Turkish domination far far longer than you have and don’t even have any country of their own, let alone two. Entire population of Krajina ethnically cleansed, and suffered from REAL GENOCIDE in Death Camps in WWII, yet that’s not enough either? I won’t even touch on the African crimes, but those are just terrible, millions killed.
No, the crimes committed against your people are sadly very common in the world. I’m sorry for the things that Milosevic did, but that was a long time ago, only for a short time, and Serbia has changed.
Besides, if you were to use the “crimes” excuse, then surely the Serbs of Kosovo would qualify just as much, considering the ratio of Serbian victims to Albanian victims per capita is nearly identical.
“Kosovo had its own administrative borders within Yugoslavia; those borders are to be respected. (Truth & Heart, 22 August 2008 14:53)”
Again wrong, Ossetia had autonomous status in Georgia just as Kosovo did in Serbia, and much like what the Kurds enjoy in Iraq today. Not to mention that Serbs had autonomous status in Krajina for hundreds and hundreds of years. I’d also like to remind you that it’s not Bosnia but Bosnia AND Herzegovina, historically two regions. In addition, we should be asking why did Kosovo and Vojvodina have autonomous status, but RS and Krajina did not? Despite claims that Serbs dominated Yugoslavia, it’s clear Tito was making the policies and they were not for the benefit of the Serbs living there.
So please someone explain just why Kosovo is so extremely different from all the other very similar conflicts that rage everyday across the globe?
Oh yeah, maybe its because its in Europe and the Albanians are white. So simple racism is clearly the reason for the claim that it’s “unique”. Should we really be supporting such racist policies?
pre 15 godina
Oh yes. . .the whimsical Illyrians. Forebearers of all that is decent in this world.
Didn't they rule Atlantis and eventually make it to the Balkans on the wings of unicorns?
For those that claim some sort of indisputable right to steal land based on make-believe pedigree. . .the native Americans were the original inhabitants of North America. . .little good that did them. . .
How about we trade you some casinos for Kosovo?
$100 on red. . .
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The borders of Yugoslavia are solid and represent a sovereign nation. Clearly Serbia's and Georgia sovereignty are equally vailid - no differences.
A foreign, UN, presence to keep the peace is not a valid reason to carve new puppet states out of sovereign nations.
Imperial encouragement (by EU/US/NATO to Albanians) for a non-engagement policy in peace talks cannot be used as a reason to violate a nations borders.
Secessionist terrorist/guerilla actions, no matter which super power supports it, cannot be rewarded and certainly cannot be seen a unique.
EU/US/NATO support their interests. This is not unique in politics.
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it still stays the same thing: you are definitely not connected to the ancient Illyrians.
(Jovan, 22 August 2008 15:49)
Why does this bother you too much Jovan. If linguistically, anthropologically, archeologically and topologically there is no doubt of Ilyrian-Arberia-Shqiperia (Albania) link, why this undeniable truth hurt you so much.
We never have any doubt about your Slavic roots and even we don’t bother to know or deny if you have Russian, Ukrainian or any Caucasian decent. Actually if you have any Balkan knowledge, Albanians mostly have not interfered with Macedonian heritage case at all. Why you interfere with Illyrian heritage? Are you trying to “become” Illyrian as Western Bulgarian want to “become” Macedonian and feel the pride of Alexander the Great, who by the way is half Greek and half Albanian?
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Somebody needs to remind this clueless Frenchman that Kosovo was Serbian hundreds of years before Corsica was French. That makes Corsica a very unique case as well, and gives them even more rights to separate.
As the saying goes, `We are all unique, like everybody else`.
Cheers!
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...it seems like it is only a few different Albanians chaning nick-names and constantly writing about the "illyrian descent", while it is widely known today that the illyrian-illusion is not more than a creation of the albanian romanticism.
which name you chose, nehat or ben or whatever, it still stays the same thing: you are definitely not connected to the ancient illyrians.
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I tell you what makes this case UNIQUE. Albanians DONT want to live occupied under the Serb government, is that enough uniqueness? 2 Million FREE people of Kosovo decided to move on and live FREELY.... you all should do the SAME...
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This is just more meaningless diplomatic rhetoric. Just words that give no explanation. The supporters of an independent Albanian Kosovo want to create a Western puppet state in the Balkans, that is what makes it unique. This project was well orchestrated and goes back well over a decade. In reality though, the truly unique aspect of an independent Albanian Kosovo is, that it will not work. The West is slowly starting to learn this.
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As Lavrov said few days ago, S.Ossetia and Kosovo are very different. There is not doubt about it.
Regarding Republica Srbska, this is also different from Kosovo as well. Kosovo had its own administrative borders within Yugoslavia; those borders are to be respected. Republica Srbska’s borders are war borders and never existed before.
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Here Nehat, I looked up your claim that you are "Illyrian". You and the rest of Kosovars are haplotype e3b which originated in Northern Africa. While Albanians (meaning people from Albanian) are predominantly I haplotype. Which means you aren't even from the same race. So much for claims to Kosovo for being Illyrian when the Albanians who have any ties to Illyrians are I haplotype.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html
And what do yo mean Kosovo has never been a part of Serbia. Serbia never invaded Kosovo, they came at the invitation of Greeks. Serbia never occupied Kosovo, Kosovo was a legal UN recognized, globally recognzed part of Serbia and still is technically. Every thing you said in your statement about reasons for Kosovo being unique are patently false.
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If you say that Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not the same case as kosovo then tell this to the palestinians, the kurds and south sudanese.
Kosovo is not a special case but i would say a "project" of the WEST to build a puppet / satellite in the balkans. that will help devour states like russia, serbia and belarus
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The crimes committed in Kosova against its Albanian population in the last war and across the last century means that Kosova is unique and this is why US and allies have supported Kosovo.
Kosova was and will never be part of Serbia this comes from the 2.2 million people that live in Kosova. Serbia might have build a load of monasteries and left some cultural heritage as expected from invading a country, the Turks for example left the Kosovars traces of religion, food, muzik and lots and lots more. And i think this makes Kosova special and unique. But bear in mind that we the Kosovars are a free nation and we like the Serbs will never live under occupation even if it takes 100 years (serbia) 550 years (ottoman empire) we are Illyrian's read up on them...
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the only thing that make kosovo unique is the huge amount of money spent by the US, UN and ALLIES on this place as compared to other more impoverized countries in the world.
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"Paris: Kosovo is unique case"
France and other progressive countries know this and point out loudly, while the rest (remaining countries) know but deny it. Pitty!
What a world!
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It is so frustrating to constantly read comments from various people telling us how Kosovo is a unique case.
Nobody to this day has ever explained what exactly makes it a unique case?
People getting killed, displaced etc has happened in many other countries and will continue to happen. This cannot make it a unique case.
Ethnic cleansing is not the reason as the Serbs were cleansed from Kosovo and not the other way around.
90% of Albanians suggests that there certainly was no ethnic cleansing. If there was then we would have a reduction of Albanian population there instead of an increase.
What makes it a unique case?
The only thing that makes it unique is the fact that America says it unique. Nothing else.
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I can agree that Kosovo is a unique case. But Republika Srpska is also unique. No to mention S.Ossetia and Abkhazia which are very unique cases.
pre 15 godina
Indeed. But Corsica is an even more unique case. What goes around, comes around.
pre 15 godina
"as you are aware"???
seems like this man had some beers too much, before giving that statement.
anyway, it seems to be everything else but a unique case, since the US are quite experienced in supporting terrorist-groups and seperatist-movements if it serves their interests...
the mere fact that this frenchie feels the need to reiterate the legend of the "unique case" ...just proves the opposite.
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This is quite pathetic from France. That statement contradicts itself and has ZERO value at all. Respect one countries sovereignty but not another and purely say "unique" as the main reason. First Serbia was labeled as 'ethnic cleansers' than as 'genocidal maniacs' and now as 'unique'. A very poor PR campaign, similar to that of the war on 'terror'
pre 15 godina
It looks like its burning under the little feet of the West, thus an old, worn out, pathetic and patronising mantra is taken out of the cupboard.
Everyone knows it created a precedent, and those that didn't know it will, now know it has. This ridiculous claims are pointless.
Anyone with any 3 brain cells working simultaniously will see that there is NOTHING unique about Kosovo (unless you count presance mini Guatamano Bay called Bondsteel).
Noone EVER bothered to explain WHY Kosovo is a unique case.
That is like saying in court in defence of a murderer
''homocide is illegal. Except in certain unique cases when commiting a homocide is acceptable. Depending on who the purpotrator of homocide is dependes if its unique or not.''
You'd be laughed out of court with such statements. Kosovo is a unique case, sounds just as ridiculous, and those who claim it will also be laughed out of International Court.
pre 15 godina
Olf,
If you live in Kosovo. . .get in your car, drive in any direction and count the number of round-domed buildings with crosses on top of them (ignore the ones that your people destroyed).
These structures are called Serbian Orthodox churches (or monasteries). They were built between the 12th and 20th centuries and number well above 1,000. . .a testament to the Serbian presence in Kosovo for over half a millenium!
Now aside from:
* illegal immigration from Albania and
* the astoundingly poor practise of birth control
. . .what evidence exists that Albanians were even in Kosovo before the 17th century?
Changing an "o" to an "a" doesn't make my province your country!
pre 15 godina
This is quite pathetic from France. That statement contradicts itself and has ZERO value at all. Respect one countries sovereignty but not another and purely say "unique" as the main reason. First Serbia was labeled as 'ethnic cleansers' than as 'genocidal maniacs' and now as 'unique'. A very poor PR campaign, similar to that of the war on 'terror'
pre 15 godina
It looks like its burning under the little feet of the West, thus an old, worn out, pathetic and patronising mantra is taken out of the cupboard.
Everyone knows it created a precedent, and those that didn't know it will, now know it has. This ridiculous claims are pointless.
Anyone with any 3 brain cells working simultaniously will see that there is NOTHING unique about Kosovo (unless you count presance mini Guatamano Bay called Bondsteel).
Noone EVER bothered to explain WHY Kosovo is a unique case.
That is like saying in court in defence of a murderer
''homocide is illegal. Except in certain unique cases when commiting a homocide is acceptable. Depending on who the purpotrator of homocide is dependes if its unique or not.''
You'd be laughed out of court with such statements. Kosovo is a unique case, sounds just as ridiculous, and those who claim it will also be laughed out of International Court.
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Indeed. But Corsica is an even more unique case. What goes around, comes around.
pre 15 godina
I can agree that Kosovo is a unique case. But Republika Srpska is also unique. No to mention S.Ossetia and Abkhazia which are very unique cases.
pre 15 godina
"Paris: Kosovo is unique case"
France and other progressive countries know this and point out loudly, while the rest (remaining countries) know but deny it. Pitty!
What a world!
pre 15 godina
It is so frustrating to constantly read comments from various people telling us how Kosovo is a unique case.
Nobody to this day has ever explained what exactly makes it a unique case?
People getting killed, displaced etc has happened in many other countries and will continue to happen. This cannot make it a unique case.
Ethnic cleansing is not the reason as the Serbs were cleansed from Kosovo and not the other way around.
90% of Albanians suggests that there certainly was no ethnic cleansing. If there was then we would have a reduction of Albanian population there instead of an increase.
What makes it a unique case?
The only thing that makes it unique is the fact that America says it unique. Nothing else.
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So please someone explain just why Kosovo is so extremely different from all the other very similar conflicts that rage everyday across the globe?
Oh yeah, maybe its because its in Europe and the Albanians are white. So simple racism is clearly the reason for the claim that it’s “unique”. Should we really be supporting such racist policies?
(Matthew, 22 August 2008 17:14)
I dont know who is being racist about it?
Let me ask you one question: Is your justification for not supporting the Albanians in their unique case because they are white, a racist policy in itself?
Oh yes. . .the whimsical Illyrians. Forebearers of all that is decent in this world.
(Nemanja, Connecticut, 22 August 2008 17:33)
About the Illyrian connection, if Illyrians were not so great and "all what is decent in this world" then why does it bother serbs so much?
Unlike the waves of migrations of the Slavs in Balkans which is verified by facts and recorded in history, there has never been recorded in history any migration of Albanians, thus making the Albanian-Illyrian connection 100% true. Thus Illyrians cannot have disapeared, they just transformed themselves in the Albanians of today over centuries. Even the western historians or the world call us with the word "Albanians" which in itself implies to a reognition of our Illyrian ancestory and heritage, while we call ourselves Shqiptar. Thus it is first the world which makes the claim we are Illyrians, can you convince them otherwise.
sorry for long argument.
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Somebody needs to remind this clueless Frenchman that Kosovo was Serbian hundreds of years before Corsica was French. That makes Corsica a very unique case as well, and gives them even more rights to separate.
As the saying goes, `We are all unique, like everybody else`.
Cheers!
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"as you are aware"???
seems like this man had some beers too much, before giving that statement.
anyway, it seems to be everything else but a unique case, since the US are quite experienced in supporting terrorist-groups and seperatist-movements if it serves their interests...
the mere fact that this frenchie feels the need to reiterate the legend of the "unique case" ...just proves the opposite.
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the only thing that make kosovo unique is the huge amount of money spent by the US, UN and ALLIES on this place as compared to other more impoverized countries in the world.
pre 15 godina
If France declares Kosovo to be a unique case, does it imply that they will not try to incorporate Wallonia, now its population declared to be interested? Changing sovereignty at the demand of the population we will not do twice? May be the Belgians can say something too about the uniqueness of Kosovo.May be they can get French Flandres back, ethnically cleansed by Louis XIV from any Dutch speaking people.
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If you say that Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not the same case as kosovo then tell this to the palestinians, the kurds and south sudanese.
Kosovo is not a special case but i would say a "project" of the WEST to build a puppet / satellite in the balkans. that will help devour states like russia, serbia and belarus
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If the French opinion were truly analyzed it would be called-Orwellian----but thats a bad description.
Who cares what the French think-most serbs remember the french Mirage jets dropping bombs on our bridgeS.
Nothing else matters, im tired of the french and thier speedos. Sarkozy should concentrate on his tan and stop pretending hes an independent european leader.
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"As you are aware, Kosovo is a unique case and we have always said that it will not represent a precedent," Frederic Desagneaux said.
-Who is aware? I am not aware since there was no not a one valuable explanation that would convince me in its uniqueness. So called European political elite dearly fails to give proper explanation on the Kosovo matter, thus sticking to the newly invented imaginary term “unique case” only goes to reveal what is the highest “intellectual” capacity of the European leaders.
Politically Correct,
“Why does this bother you too much Jovan. If linguistically, anthropologically, archeologically and topologically there is no doubt of Ilyrian-Arberia-Shqiperia (Albania) link, why this undeniable truth hurt you so much”
Jovan is not bothered, nor anyone of us but he is just trying to tell you how ridiculous your claims are. Besides, Albanians have a long tradition of assuming other cultures as their own and seems that that phenomenon is passed on Fryomians which is very explainable by the fact that they live quite close to each other thus begun, due to many influential factors, to share same values. Unfortunately these things happen.
I agree, claiming Alexander the Great by Slavic Macedonians as their own is as bizarre as claiming Serbian medieval Orthodox Churches in Kosovo being of Albanian Illyrian origin (claimed by K-Albanians). This newly phenomenon appeared just few days after the UDI, in about the same period of time as the story about the polar bears living in Shar Mountain.
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The crimes committed in Kosova against its Albanian population in the last war and across the last century means that Kosova is unique and this is why US and allies have supported Kosovo.
Kosova was and will never be part of Serbia this comes from the 2.2 million people that live in Kosova. Serbia might have build a load of monasteries and left some cultural heritage as expected from invading a country, the Turks for example left the Kosovars traces of religion, food, muzik and lots and lots more. And i think this makes Kosova special and unique. But bear in mind that we the Kosovars are a free nation and we like the Serbs will never live under occupation even if it takes 100 years (serbia) 550 years (ottoman empire) we are Illyrian's read up on them...
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Here Nehat, I looked up your claim that you are "Illyrian". You and the rest of Kosovars are haplotype e3b which originated in Northern Africa. While Albanians (meaning people from Albanian) are predominantly I haplotype. Which means you aren't even from the same race. So much for claims to Kosovo for being Illyrian when the Albanians who have any ties to Illyrians are I haplotype.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html
And what do yo mean Kosovo has never been a part of Serbia. Serbia never invaded Kosovo, they came at the invitation of Greeks. Serbia never occupied Kosovo, Kosovo was a legal UN recognized, globally recognzed part of Serbia and still is technically. Every thing you said in your statement about reasons for Kosovo being unique are patently false.
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Why oh Why do they say Kosovo is so unique in this world full of seperatist movements?
its unique because they say it is. thats all----its the way dictators phrase things. Kosovo is unique because they want it to be. Nothing else.
It always falls back to the meaning of is-----we have the clinton years to thank.
Kosovo is totally unique----lets believe that until south ossetia raises its national flag and the ETA places another bomb.
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According to French and German books KiM population in the 16th century accounted 3% of Albanians.
no comment
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The only thing unique about Kosovo is that this is where they harvested human organs for a mighty profit.
If you count this then yes, Kosovo is certainly a unique case, but since it was done to the Serbs, Albanians have lost any rights they had previously to govern themselves let alone their victims.
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This is just more meaningless diplomatic rhetoric. Just words that give no explanation. The supporters of an independent Albanian Kosovo want to create a Western puppet state in the Balkans, that is what makes it unique. This project was well orchestrated and goes back well over a decade. In reality though, the truly unique aspect of an independent Albanian Kosovo is, that it will not work. The West is slowly starting to learn this.
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“The crimes committed in Kosova against its Albanian population in the last war and across the last century means that Kosova is unique and this is why US and allies have supported Kosovo. (Nehat, 22 August 2008 12:52)”
So the crimes against the Kurds, like Saddam killing 5,000 of them in a single chemical weapons attack don’t count as crimes or aren’t severe enough? If you’re going to base it on crimes committed against your population, then you have a very weak argument. Just 2,000 Albanians were killed before NATO decided to bomb and take Kosovo away from Serbia (Sounds EXACTLY like what just happened in Ossetia with 1500-2000 killed but in a couple of days, not years). Kurds have been fighting Turkish domination far far longer than you have and don’t even have any country of their own, let alone two. Entire population of Krajina ethnically cleansed, and suffered from REAL GENOCIDE in Death Camps in WWII, yet that’s not enough either? I won’t even touch on the African crimes, but those are just terrible, millions killed.
No, the crimes committed against your people are sadly very common in the world. I’m sorry for the things that Milosevic did, but that was a long time ago, only for a short time, and Serbia has changed.
Besides, if you were to use the “crimes” excuse, then surely the Serbs of Kosovo would qualify just as much, considering the ratio of Serbian victims to Albanian victims per capita is nearly identical.
“Kosovo had its own administrative borders within Yugoslavia; those borders are to be respected. (Truth & Heart, 22 August 2008 14:53)”
Again wrong, Ossetia had autonomous status in Georgia just as Kosovo did in Serbia, and much like what the Kurds enjoy in Iraq today. Not to mention that Serbs had autonomous status in Krajina for hundreds and hundreds of years. I’d also like to remind you that it’s not Bosnia but Bosnia AND Herzegovina, historically two regions. In addition, we should be asking why did Kosovo and Vojvodina have autonomous status, but RS and Krajina did not? Despite claims that Serbs dominated Yugoslavia, it’s clear Tito was making the policies and they were not for the benefit of the Serbs living there.
So please someone explain just why Kosovo is so extremely different from all the other very similar conflicts that rage everyday across the globe?
Oh yeah, maybe its because its in Europe and the Albanians are white. So simple racism is clearly the reason for the claim that it’s “unique”. Should we really be supporting such racist policies?
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This article says nothing substantial. It just reports the opinions of one individual; an opinion that is increasingly losing its legitimacy as more areas of the world seek to enter the parastate status that Kosovo is now in.
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Oh yes. . .the whimsical Illyrians. Forebearers of all that is decent in this world.
Didn't they rule Atlantis and eventually make it to the Balkans on the wings of unicorns?
For those that claim some sort of indisputable right to steal land based on make-believe pedigree. . .the native Americans were the original inhabitants of North America. . .little good that did them. . .
How about we trade you some casinos for Kosovo?
$100 on red. . .
pre 15 godina
...it seems like it is only a few different Albanians chaning nick-names and constantly writing about the "illyrian descent", while it is widely known today that the illyrian-illusion is not more than a creation of the albanian romanticism.
which name you chose, nehat or ben or whatever, it still stays the same thing: you are definitely not connected to the ancient illyrians.
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On 22 August 2008 14:53, Truth & Heart wrote:
"Republica Srbska’s borders are war borders and never existed before."
All borders, everywhere, are war borders. It is just a matter of finding out which war.
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“Is your justification for not supporting the Albanians in their unique case because they are white, a racist policy in itself? (Doni, 22 August 2008 18:55)”
Doni, I’ve posted literally thousands of times on B92 and my views are always consistent. I support the partition of Kosovo and always have for the same reason I support RS, Krajina, Kurdistan, Ossetia etc. Of course you take the intellectually lazy route and did not address the issue, how is Kosovo unique, what sets it apart from the other conflicts in the world? Certainly your people deserve to live free of oppression, but why not us? Why not the rest of the world?
Having one policy non-Serb Europeans, and a completely opposite one for the rest of the world does smack of racism I think. Why do Americans not care when millions die in Africa, yet a few thousand deaths in Europe are suddenly the “worst crimes since WWII”?
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The borders of Yugoslavia are solid and represent a sovereign nation. Clearly Serbia's and Georgia sovereignty are equally vailid - no differences.
A foreign, UN, presence to keep the peace is not a valid reason to carve new puppet states out of sovereign nations.
Imperial encouragement (by EU/US/NATO to Albanians) for a non-engagement policy in peace talks cannot be used as a reason to violate a nations borders.
Secessionist terrorist/guerilla actions, no matter which super power supports it, cannot be rewarded and certainly cannot be seen a unique.
EU/US/NATO support their interests. This is not unique in politics.
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it still stays the same thing: you are definitely not connected to the ancient Illyrians.
(Jovan, 22 August 2008 15:49)
Why does this bother you too much Jovan. If linguistically, anthropologically, archeologically and topologically there is no doubt of Ilyrian-Arberia-Shqiperia (Albania) link, why this undeniable truth hurt you so much.
We never have any doubt about your Slavic roots and even we don’t bother to know or deny if you have Russian, Ukrainian or any Caucasian decent. Actually if you have any Balkan knowledge, Albanians mostly have not interfered with Macedonian heritage case at all. Why you interfere with Illyrian heritage? Are you trying to “become” Illyrian as Western Bulgarian want to “become” Macedonian and feel the pride of Alexander the Great, who by the way is half Greek and half Albanian?
pre 15 godina
Dragan,
I have to remind you that history of Europe and of the mankind in Europe counts from centuries back, please feel free to chase your roots and consult the book of Dobrica Cosic “The Divisions” to help you our on this issue
As for Kosovo being Serbian for hundred years, I say that you are WRONG.
pre 15 godina
it still stays the same thing: you are definitely not connected to the ancient Illyrians.
(Jovan, 22 August 2008 15:49)
Why do you waste your time.
It is scientifically known and noticed the arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans.
There is no proof of the arrival of the Albanians. Not a single one.
The same Greeks and Romans would have noticed our arrival as they have noticed yours- don’t you think.
Beside my language proves me who I am and I am Illyrian.
Nations are not randomly distributed in the space there are historical motives why we Albos live in south and you Serbs in north.
pre 15 godina
"Which means you aren't even from the same race."
ever heard of genetic drift, bottleneck or founder effect? Plus, if we are different, how come you Serbs say that K-Albs came from Albania? All people came from Africa, the one Albs are identified with was created same 8000 years ago--in the Balkans. Where were Serbs 8000 years ago?
Njemanja, Yes Serbs built a lot of churches...by mining Kosova minerals. Apparently a church for very 4-5 people since K-population was in tens of thousands for centuries. Why? To say "it's ours," that's why
pre 15 godina
"what evidence exists that Albanians were even in Kosovo before the 17th century? "
Check Dusan's code how Catholic Albanians faced death unless they converted and how they were kept in servitude.
Suppose Albanians moved to Kosova in 1710: How can it be "illegal immigration" if Kosova was not part of Serbia and Serbia didn't even exist? Russia didn't get your autonomy until 1800's and Independence came much later.
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It's pitiful to listen to the Albanians trying to describe why Kosovo is a unique case. They try to create a case which doesn't exist, in keeping with the US pushed idea of "uniqueness".
You'll lose the GA vote at the UN, the decision at the ICJ and ultimately US and EU support. it might take many years, but Kosovo ISN'T a state and never will be. The best you can hope for is for Serbia to recognise Kosovo and partition it, but if you do that you'll be kissing goodbye to the only real source of income Trepca.
However you look at it, you Albanians have lost and Serbia cannot lose.
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I tell you what makes this case UNIQUE. Albanians DONT want to live occupied under the Serb government, is that enough uniqueness? 2 Million FREE people of Kosovo decided to move on and live FREELY.... you all should do the SAME...
pre 15 godina
its unique because i say so? thats a fine intellectual argument and also shows how french education pays off :) but a good argument too. russia is saying the same south ossetia and kosovo are nothing alike, in other words, we support serbian integrity but not georgian, because south ossetia is a unique case. they already came up with exactly how that is, cant remember the details:)) so, kosovo is a unique case, cechnya is a unique case, south ossetia is another, not to mention lovely abkhazia. you see? the meaning's been taken out of international order and relations. its funny when you say all this but its deadly dangerous for so many people all over the globe.
as for this
'If you take a look at how Kosovo was awarded to Serbia in 1913, you will see that there were 2, not 1 plans of the international community as to which country Kosovo should belong, Albania or Serbia.'
the first time albanian state emerged in all of human history was in 1913. that is a historical fact. albanian tribes lived in the territory of today's albania but they never organized themselves in anything resembling a state. so in 1913, everything albania got was given to it by the great powers as a gift. on the other hand, kosovo is serbian heartland since the middle ages. somehow shortly after we slavs arrived here, we managed to organize ourselves into a state such as they were then, and then into a kindgom, and then into an empire. after the turkish invasion we regained our statehood and our nation built back modern serbia. later on some of our land was also regained, certainly our national core, kosovo. but of course we graciously let go of the whole of bosnia, the whole of macedonia, and much of greece :)
this is quite simple. its historical facts.
also i notice some serbs argue with albanians when albanians say that they're not really albanians but ilyrians. who have been in the balkans for i think, 8000 years? personally i have no problem with this. so be it. but if its true then albanians really are a unique case. what other nation in europe lived in an area for 8000 years, or indeed 4000, or 2000, without creating a state, a culture, an army, producing artists and scientist and above all national physical monuments. dont get me wrong, i believe you that you were there all the time. but where is that albanian church, mosque, temple, bridge built by an albanian, that watchtower, anything, that trace which every nation leaves when they live in a place and own it?
pre 15 godina
Dear Mr. Frederic Desagneaux...your comment is insulting and not at all becoming of an intelligent person. Let me ask ...was Srpska Krajina a unique case, in your mind?
pre 15 godina
OK France, so when a minority becomes an overwhelming majority, then they are allowed to succeed? Look at Paris today with its huge Muslim population. With a huge birthrate compared to Christian French, then they should be allowed their own Muslim state in France in a few years.
pre 15 godina
Ben,
Clearly Serbs were a majority in Krajina and large parts of Bosnia, and did not use force to attain that. In fact Serbs were the victims of genocide in WWII in those regions which was a major contributing factor in Serbs going from the largest ethnicity in all of Bosnia, to the second largest. Might I also remind you that Albanians ethnically cleansed roughly HALF the Serbian population in Kosovo after the NATO bombing, so according to your own rules, you do not deserve independence, especially in those areas that had a Serb population before the bombing. Croatia did the same in Krajina AND The Federation in Bosnia has only a 2% minority population, while RS has a 12% minority population. Who are the worse offenders? Who are the biggest victims of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans?
You then go on the proclaim “only” indigenous populations deserve the right to self determination without defining just what those conditions should be. 1,000 years? 10,000 years? 100,000 years?
Regardless, your situation is hardly unique in that respect either, the Basque, the Irish, the Kurds, all native populations present before the country that rules them now were in place or existed. According to your definition, you clearly support the right of the Hispanic population in California-Texas to seek independence.
I honestly don’t think you actually understand what the definition of “unique” is.
pre 15 godina
"Kosovo is certainly a unique case, but since it was done to the Serbs, Albanians have lost any rights they had previously to govern themselves let alone their victims."
Slight problem, the "organ" lies are just that, lies with ZERO proof. This, and dozens of such cases, however are true:
"Mr Popaj and a two-year-old boy, believed to have been shielded by his mother, were the only survivors. Seven women and three children died.
Leaving the bodies lying on the riverbank, the Serb forces moved on and shot at least seven elderly villagers in a nearby field."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/inside_kosovo/bela_cerkva.stm
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I wrote a comment, a comment in which I agreed with brumsila and added some arguments, but as it could have been expected, it was censored. ( and of course it was not censored because there was any use of derogatory speech - there wasn´t any )
if you bring up arguments against the supporters of that puppy-toy-"republjik" - you get censored.
but knowing that this is B92, and who is paying, it´s no mystery anymore.
real journalism is something completely different.
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As Lavrov said few days ago, S.Ossetia and Kosovo are very different. There is not doubt about it.
Regarding Republica Srbska, this is also different from Kosovo as well. Kosovo had its own administrative borders within Yugoslavia; those borders are to be respected. Republica Srbska’s borders are war borders and never existed before.
pre 15 godina
Republic of Kosova (Kosovo) is the product of the breakup of Yugoslavia. There will never be another Kosova, there will be others that have characteristics and might resemble but Kosova is in no way or shape a precedent.
pre 15 godina
(Milan Radosavljevic, 23 August 2008 01:14)
The French and the rest of the world says that the Kosovar road to independence lays no foundation to others which seek statehood. The Serbs say that the Kosovars have laid a foundation for "separatists" as a precedent. The Kosovars say that they are unique. Why does it matter who says it? You Serbs claim that Kosova is your territory, and continually aspire to former Greater Serbia. Just because you say Kosova is yours, it does not make it yours. I could go tomorrow in Washington and proclaim it independent, it doesn't mean I have my own state. Until Serbia has physical control over Kosova (Kosovo) and has its' presence through military and legislative control Kosova will be independent.
pre 15 godina
Ben,
Serbs were a majority in Krajina and many parts of Bosnia BEFORE the wars of the 90’s, and even more so before they suffered genocide in WWII. I have no idea where you get the idea that they were not. If the fact that ethnic cleansing was committed by some Serbs somehow invalidates this, then you’re saying Kosovo doesn’t deserve independence either since some elements of the Albanian population in Kosovo engaged in ethnic cleansing after the NATO bombing.
So now you’re adding oppression, being European and having a minimum of 1.8 million people to the requirements for being unique?
As far as being European, that enforces my argument that it’s a racist policy.
However, taking all that into account, since Turkey is considered European, the Kurds still have a better and stronger case on every single item you mentioned. They have 30 million to your 10, and they don’t even have one country. 30,000 people have died in the conflict in recent years in Turkey alone, 15 times the amount that led to the NATO bombing in Kosovo. They’ve had chemical weapons used against them by Saddam, a form of oppression you never had to experience. They’ve been fighting for independence for centuries, far longer than your people.
Nothing you’ve said makes Kosovo unique in any way. Those are just arguments to support Kosovo independence or arguments against Serb areas being treated in the same manner (racism perhaps?).
“Now you will take other cases arround teh world but I could say let them make their case.”
I think you’re basically admitting there really is in reality nothing whatsoever unique about Kosovo, in fact it closely shares many similarities to other regions in the immediate vicinity, and other areas of the world have even stronger arguments supporting their independence drives. You seem to be confusing the difference between being “Unique” and being morally entitled to independence.
You’re not “unique” but the problem is your international partners have made it a requirement that it must be “unique” so it does not affect the stability of the rest of the world. Already we’re seeing the effects of the abandonment of the negotiating process.
For the stability of the planet, you should have discussed partition. Your people are only slightly better at treating their minorities than Serbs are, there’s no moral justification for you ruling over the Serbian areas of Kosovo. You’ve proven over the last decade that you’re just as capable of dishing out the vengeance as are the Serbs.
BTW Ben, by constantly using the term “teh” you give away your age. My kids type like that and so do trolls. Do not feed the Trolls.
pre 15 godina
Doni, if after all those centuries you haven't left a trace how can you prove you were there in any substantial numbers at all?
In case of Serbs, there is plenty of proof. Centuries old churches and monasteries.
This proves Serbian ownership of the land.
How can you tell us that Serbs had Kosovo only recently? Who built on that land for centuries then?
I would love to see a map of Albania where it shows Kosovo being part of it. Now how about you guys show us that and I will agree that Kosovo is indeed Albanian.
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On 22 August 2008 16:18, limited wrote:
"Secessionist terrorist/guerilla actions, no matter which super power supports it, cannot be rewarded and certainly cannot be seen a unique."
One mans terrorists, is another mans freedom fighters.
I am sure Nazi occupation forces in Denmark regarded our resistance fighters as evil terrorists running around blowing up rail roads and weapons factories.
So be careful before you label some group as terrorists - history sometimes as a strange way of redefining labels.
--
pre 15 godina
According to French and German books KiM population in the 16th century accounted 3% of Albanians.
no comment
(rain, 23 August 2008 01:08)
Rain pls don't be so jealous and share with us these BOOKS.
pre 15 godina
Gordo, this is IF you believe that Kosovo was serbian in the first place. If you take a look at how Kosovo was awarded to Serbia in 1913, you will see that there were 2, not 1 plans of the international community as to which country Kosovo should belong, Albania or Serbia. There was a Russian-French plan which awarded Kosovo to Serbia and there was an Austro-Hungarian and Italian plan which awarded Kosovo to Albania.
Kosovo then was awarded to Serbia as a gift to a christian state, from the territories of a crumbling empire (Turkish Empire). Thus the conclusion here is that Kosovo never represented a consensus among the international community as a serbian territory. This is diffrent from you analogy of Paris and its foreign population.
pre 15 godina
to smile
You "graciously" let go of Greek territory? Would that be Aegean Macedonia? Apparently you don't know much history. That land like Kosovo and all of southern Serbia had been hellenized before the Slavs arrived there. Those territories have belonged to a Greek statehood (Byzantine Empire) long before they belonged to a Serbian statehood. There were probably Albanians of Illyrian descent living there when the Slavs arrived but this is not documented.
Anyway I think the Greeks are making a big mistake in supporting Serbia against Albania, given that Serbia (Yugoslavia) tried to steal Macedonia (Aegean Macedonia is the real Macedonia, inhabited by ancient Macedonians as opposed to FYROM which has been inhabited by Illyrians and Thracians) from Greece and Serbia recognizes the name Macedonia for FYROM. Greeks and Albanians should stand united against Serbs and 'Macedonians'
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(Gordo, 23 August 2008 16:16)
Lets take for criteria:
1. Autochthonism
2. Majority
3. teh majority should have not been produced with teh force (by by R. Srpska)
if you fulfil all these 3 conditions than you can be independet if not you are minority.
If you fulfil all conditions and you are still treated as minority- that makes you unique case- KOSOVA.
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Matthew, 23 August 2008 19:58)
Matthew, you entire post about Krjina and Bosnia fails in front of the point 3.
Serbs had no territorial continuity- hence they had to ethnically clean the land.
So it makes no sense what you say.
Moreover, they fail in front of point 1 too.
Basques are in aq much more similar situation with Kosova than any other case in Europe. But they too fail to enter in the unique case- they are not oppressed, and far far from what K-Albanians suffered with Serbia.
This douesn't mean that I don't support Basque cause. I think Spain (who guess what does not recognize Kosova) should approach this issue as Canada: allow Basques in referendum to declare if they want to be independent or be part of Spain. Basques are mature ppl hey now what is teh best fro them. And this wil strengthen teh >Spanish democracy.
Point 2 should be specified. The majority needs to be assured in relative and absolute terms. The allaged minority needs to make a consistent % in the country and needs to be in larg number (in lichtenstein is easy to be majority in relative terms).
Hence, the Irish in north Ireland fail under point 2.
I would limit for now in Europe. Now you will take other cases arround teh world but I could say let them make their case.
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at SMILE,
but if its true then albanians really are a unique case. what other nation in europe lived in an area for 8000 years, or indeed 4000, or 2000, without creating a state, a culture, an army, producing artists and scientist and above all national physical monuments. dont get me wrong, i believe you that you were there all the time. but where is that albanian church, mosque, temple, bridge built by an albanian, that watchtower, anything, that trace which every nation leaves when they live in a place and own it?
(smile, 23 August 2008 22:02)
do you excpect Illyrians to have churches,mosques?? do you know where was Jesus in that time? in his father...
About monuments and bridges, do you think they resisted the invasions including the slav one, which destroy everything in order to claim the land as empty.
As long as we were living there, the land is ours. what we do with it is our problem, not yours.
Illyrians had a country and that was Roman Empire=EU today. But serbs came along and they destroy everything was build, and they build serb churches instead, lots of them, because we needed more and more churches, they are very usefull.
pre 15 godina
"For the stability of the planet, you should have discussed partition. Your people are only slightly better at treating their minorities than Serbs are, there’s no moral justification for you ruling over the Serbian areas of Kosovo"
Mathew,
It's the Serbs that do not want. They can take the North and give 100,000 Albanians and Presevo Valley, right next to Kosova. They are being discriminated as well and unemployment is 70%. Serbs want it all.
pre 15 godina
"Paris: Kosovo is unique case"
France and other progressive countries know this and point out loudly, while the rest (remaining countries) know but deny it. Pitty!
What a world!
pre 15 godina
The crimes committed in Kosova against its Albanian population in the last war and across the last century means that Kosova is unique and this is why US and allies have supported Kosovo.
Kosova was and will never be part of Serbia this comes from the 2.2 million people that live in Kosova. Serbia might have build a load of monasteries and left some cultural heritage as expected from invading a country, the Turks for example left the Kosovars traces of religion, food, muzik and lots and lots more. And i think this makes Kosova special and unique. But bear in mind that we the Kosovars are a free nation and we like the Serbs will never live under occupation even if it takes 100 years (serbia) 550 years (ottoman empire) we are Illyrian's read up on them...
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"Which means you aren't even from the same race."
ever heard of genetic drift, bottleneck or founder effect? Plus, if we are different, how come you Serbs say that K-Albs came from Albania? All people came from Africa, the one Albs are identified with was created same 8000 years ago--in the Balkans. Where were Serbs 8000 years ago?
Njemanja, Yes Serbs built a lot of churches...by mining Kosova minerals. Apparently a church for very 4-5 people since K-population was in tens of thousands for centuries. Why? To say "it's ours," that's why
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I tell you what makes this case UNIQUE. Albanians DONT want to live occupied under the Serb government, is that enough uniqueness? 2 Million FREE people of Kosovo decided to move on and live FREELY.... you all should do the SAME...
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it still stays the same thing: you are definitely not connected to the ancient Illyrians.
(Jovan, 22 August 2008 15:49)
Why do you waste your time.
It is scientifically known and noticed the arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans.
There is no proof of the arrival of the Albanians. Not a single one.
The same Greeks and Romans would have noticed our arrival as they have noticed yours- don’t you think.
Beside my language proves me who I am and I am Illyrian.
Nations are not randomly distributed in the space there are historical motives why we Albos live in south and you Serbs in north.
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So please someone explain just why Kosovo is so extremely different from all the other very similar conflicts that rage everyday across the globe?
Oh yeah, maybe its because its in Europe and the Albanians are white. So simple racism is clearly the reason for the claim that it’s “unique”. Should we really be supporting such racist policies?
(Matthew, 22 August 2008 17:14)
I dont know who is being racist about it?
Let me ask you one question: Is your justification for not supporting the Albanians in their unique case because they are white, a racist policy in itself?
Oh yes. . .the whimsical Illyrians. Forebearers of all that is decent in this world.
(Nemanja, Connecticut, 22 August 2008 17:33)
About the Illyrian connection, if Illyrians were not so great and "all what is decent in this world" then why does it bother serbs so much?
Unlike the waves of migrations of the Slavs in Balkans which is verified by facts and recorded in history, there has never been recorded in history any migration of Albanians, thus making the Albanian-Illyrian connection 100% true. Thus Illyrians cannot have disapeared, they just transformed themselves in the Albanians of today over centuries. Even the western historians or the world call us with the word "Albanians" which in itself implies to a reognition of our Illyrian ancestory and heritage, while we call ourselves Shqiptar. Thus it is first the world which makes the claim we are Illyrians, can you convince them otherwise.
sorry for long argument.
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"what evidence exists that Albanians were even in Kosovo before the 17th century? "
Check Dusan's code how Catholic Albanians faced death unless they converted and how they were kept in servitude.
Suppose Albanians moved to Kosova in 1710: How can it be "illegal immigration" if Kosova was not part of Serbia and Serbia didn't even exist? Russia didn't get your autonomy until 1800's and Independence came much later.
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As Lavrov said few days ago, S.Ossetia and Kosovo are very different. There is not doubt about it.
Regarding Republica Srbska, this is also different from Kosovo as well. Kosovo had its own administrative borders within Yugoslavia; those borders are to be respected. Republica Srbska’s borders are war borders and never existed before.
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it still stays the same thing: you are definitely not connected to the ancient Illyrians.
(Jovan, 22 August 2008 15:49)
Why does this bother you too much Jovan. If linguistically, anthropologically, archeologically and topologically there is no doubt of Ilyrian-Arberia-Shqiperia (Albania) link, why this undeniable truth hurt you so much.
We never have any doubt about your Slavic roots and even we don’t bother to know or deny if you have Russian, Ukrainian or any Caucasian decent. Actually if you have any Balkan knowledge, Albanians mostly have not interfered with Macedonian heritage case at all. Why you interfere with Illyrian heritage? Are you trying to “become” Illyrian as Western Bulgarian want to “become” Macedonian and feel the pride of Alexander the Great, who by the way is half Greek and half Albanian?
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Dragan,
I have to remind you that history of Europe and of the mankind in Europe counts from centuries back, please feel free to chase your roots and consult the book of Dobrica Cosic “The Divisions” to help you our on this issue
As for Kosovo being Serbian for hundred years, I say that you are WRONG.
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I can agree that Kosovo is a unique case. But Republika Srpska is also unique. No to mention S.Ossetia and Abkhazia which are very unique cases.
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Here Nehat, I looked up your claim that you are "Illyrian". You and the rest of Kosovars are haplotype e3b which originated in Northern Africa. While Albanians (meaning people from Albanian) are predominantly I haplotype. Which means you aren't even from the same race. So much for claims to Kosovo for being Illyrian when the Albanians who have any ties to Illyrians are I haplotype.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html
And what do yo mean Kosovo has never been a part of Serbia. Serbia never invaded Kosovo, they came at the invitation of Greeks. Serbia never occupied Kosovo, Kosovo was a legal UN recognized, globally recognzed part of Serbia and still is technically. Every thing you said in your statement about reasons for Kosovo being unique are patently false.
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Republic of Kosova (Kosovo) is the product of the breakup of Yugoslavia. There will never be another Kosova, there will be others that have characteristics and might resemble but Kosova is in no way or shape a precedent.
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Indeed. But Corsica is an even more unique case. What goes around, comes around.
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It is so frustrating to constantly read comments from various people telling us how Kosovo is a unique case.
Nobody to this day has ever explained what exactly makes it a unique case?
People getting killed, displaced etc has happened in many other countries and will continue to happen. This cannot make it a unique case.
Ethnic cleansing is not the reason as the Serbs were cleansed from Kosovo and not the other way around.
90% of Albanians suggests that there certainly was no ethnic cleansing. If there was then we would have a reduction of Albanian population there instead of an increase.
What makes it a unique case?
The only thing that makes it unique is the fact that America says it unique. Nothing else.
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...it seems like it is only a few different Albanians chaning nick-names and constantly writing about the "illyrian descent", while it is widely known today that the illyrian-illusion is not more than a creation of the albanian romanticism.
which name you chose, nehat or ben or whatever, it still stays the same thing: you are definitely not connected to the ancient illyrians.
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"As you are aware, Kosovo is a unique case and we have always said that it will not represent a precedent," Frederic Desagneaux said.
-Who is aware? I am not aware since there was no not a one valuable explanation that would convince me in its uniqueness. So called European political elite dearly fails to give proper explanation on the Kosovo matter, thus sticking to the newly invented imaginary term “unique case” only goes to reveal what is the highest “intellectual” capacity of the European leaders.
Politically Correct,
“Why does this bother you too much Jovan. If linguistically, anthropologically, archeologically and topologically there is no doubt of Ilyrian-Arberia-Shqiperia (Albania) link, why this undeniable truth hurt you so much”
Jovan is not bothered, nor anyone of us but he is just trying to tell you how ridiculous your claims are. Besides, Albanians have a long tradition of assuming other cultures as their own and seems that that phenomenon is passed on Fryomians which is very explainable by the fact that they live quite close to each other thus begun, due to many influential factors, to share same values. Unfortunately these things happen.
I agree, claiming Alexander the Great by Slavic Macedonians as their own is as bizarre as claiming Serbian medieval Orthodox Churches in Kosovo being of Albanian Illyrian origin (claimed by K-Albanians). This newly phenomenon appeared just few days after the UDI, in about the same period of time as the story about the polar bears living in Shar Mountain.
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to smile
You "graciously" let go of Greek territory? Would that be Aegean Macedonia? Apparently you don't know much history. That land like Kosovo and all of southern Serbia had been hellenized before the Slavs arrived there. Those territories have belonged to a Greek statehood (Byzantine Empire) long before they belonged to a Serbian statehood. There were probably Albanians of Illyrian descent living there when the Slavs arrived but this is not documented.
Anyway I think the Greeks are making a big mistake in supporting Serbia against Albania, given that Serbia (Yugoslavia) tried to steal Macedonia (Aegean Macedonia is the real Macedonia, inhabited by ancient Macedonians as opposed to FYROM which has been inhabited by Illyrians and Thracians) from Greece and Serbia recognizes the name Macedonia for FYROM. Greeks and Albanians should stand united against Serbs and 'Macedonians'
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This is quite pathetic from France. That statement contradicts itself and has ZERO value at all. Respect one countries sovereignty but not another and purely say "unique" as the main reason. First Serbia was labeled as 'ethnic cleansers' than as 'genocidal maniacs' and now as 'unique'. A very poor PR campaign, similar to that of the war on 'terror'
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"as you are aware"???
seems like this man had some beers too much, before giving that statement.
anyway, it seems to be everything else but a unique case, since the US are quite experienced in supporting terrorist-groups and seperatist-movements if it serves their interests...
the mere fact that this frenchie feels the need to reiterate the legend of the "unique case" ...just proves the opposite.
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If you say that Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not the same case as kosovo then tell this to the palestinians, the kurds and south sudanese.
Kosovo is not a special case but i would say a "project" of the WEST to build a puppet / satellite in the balkans. that will help devour states like russia, serbia and belarus
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Somebody needs to remind this clueless Frenchman that Kosovo was Serbian hundreds of years before Corsica was French. That makes Corsica a very unique case as well, and gives them even more rights to separate.
As the saying goes, `We are all unique, like everybody else`.
Cheers!
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“The crimes committed in Kosova against its Albanian population in the last war and across the last century means that Kosova is unique and this is why US and allies have supported Kosovo. (Nehat, 22 August 2008 12:52)”
So the crimes against the Kurds, like Saddam killing 5,000 of them in a single chemical weapons attack don’t count as crimes or aren’t severe enough? If you’re going to base it on crimes committed against your population, then you have a very weak argument. Just 2,000 Albanians were killed before NATO decided to bomb and take Kosovo away from Serbia (Sounds EXACTLY like what just happened in Ossetia with 1500-2000 killed but in a couple of days, not years). Kurds have been fighting Turkish domination far far longer than you have and don’t even have any country of their own, let alone two. Entire population of Krajina ethnically cleansed, and suffered from REAL GENOCIDE in Death Camps in WWII, yet that’s not enough either? I won’t even touch on the African crimes, but those are just terrible, millions killed.
No, the crimes committed against your people are sadly very common in the world. I’m sorry for the things that Milosevic did, but that was a long time ago, only for a short time, and Serbia has changed.
Besides, if you were to use the “crimes” excuse, then surely the Serbs of Kosovo would qualify just as much, considering the ratio of Serbian victims to Albanian victims per capita is nearly identical.
“Kosovo had its own administrative borders within Yugoslavia; those borders are to be respected. (Truth & Heart, 22 August 2008 14:53)”
Again wrong, Ossetia had autonomous status in Georgia just as Kosovo did in Serbia, and much like what the Kurds enjoy in Iraq today. Not to mention that Serbs had autonomous status in Krajina for hundreds and hundreds of years. I’d also like to remind you that it’s not Bosnia but Bosnia AND Herzegovina, historically two regions. In addition, we should be asking why did Kosovo and Vojvodina have autonomous status, but RS and Krajina did not? Despite claims that Serbs dominated Yugoslavia, it’s clear Tito was making the policies and they were not for the benefit of the Serbs living there.
So please someone explain just why Kosovo is so extremely different from all the other very similar conflicts that rage everyday across the globe?
Oh yeah, maybe its because its in Europe and the Albanians are white. So simple racism is clearly the reason for the claim that it’s “unique”. Should we really be supporting such racist policies?
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Oh yes. . .the whimsical Illyrians. Forebearers of all that is decent in this world.
Didn't they rule Atlantis and eventually make it to the Balkans on the wings of unicorns?
For those that claim some sort of indisputable right to steal land based on make-believe pedigree. . .the native Americans were the original inhabitants of North America. . .little good that did them. . .
How about we trade you some casinos for Kosovo?
$100 on red. . .
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Olf,
If you live in Kosovo. . .get in your car, drive in any direction and count the number of round-domed buildings with crosses on top of them (ignore the ones that your people destroyed).
These structures are called Serbian Orthodox churches (or monasteries). They were built between the 12th and 20th centuries and number well above 1,000. . .a testament to the Serbian presence in Kosovo for over half a millenium!
Now aside from:
* illegal immigration from Albania and
* the astoundingly poor practise of birth control
. . .what evidence exists that Albanians were even in Kosovo before the 17th century?
Changing an "o" to an "a" doesn't make my province your country!
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The only thing unique about Kosovo is that this is where they harvested human organs for a mighty profit.
If you count this then yes, Kosovo is certainly a unique case, but since it was done to the Serbs, Albanians have lost any rights they had previously to govern themselves let alone their victims.
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"Kosovo is certainly a unique case, but since it was done to the Serbs, Albanians have lost any rights they had previously to govern themselves let alone their victims."
Slight problem, the "organ" lies are just that, lies with ZERO proof. This, and dozens of such cases, however are true:
"Mr Popaj and a two-year-old boy, believed to have been shielded by his mother, were the only survivors. Seven women and three children died.
Leaving the bodies lying on the riverbank, the Serb forces moved on and shot at least seven elderly villagers in a nearby field."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/inside_kosovo/bela_cerkva.stm
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According to French and German books KiM population in the 16th century accounted 3% of Albanians.
no comment
(rain, 23 August 2008 01:08)
Rain pls don't be so jealous and share with us these BOOKS.
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OK France, so when a minority becomes an overwhelming majority, then they are allowed to succeed? Look at Paris today with its huge Muslim population. With a huge birthrate compared to Christian French, then they should be allowed their own Muslim state in France in a few years.
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Gordo, this is IF you believe that Kosovo was serbian in the first place. If you take a look at how Kosovo was awarded to Serbia in 1913, you will see that there were 2, not 1 plans of the international community as to which country Kosovo should belong, Albania or Serbia. There was a Russian-French plan which awarded Kosovo to Serbia and there was an Austro-Hungarian and Italian plan which awarded Kosovo to Albania.
Kosovo then was awarded to Serbia as a gift to a christian state, from the territories of a crumbling empire (Turkish Empire). Thus the conclusion here is that Kosovo never represented a consensus among the international community as a serbian territory. This is diffrent from you analogy of Paris and its foreign population.
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(Gordo, 23 August 2008 16:16)
Lets take for criteria:
1. Autochthonism
2. Majority
3. teh majority should have not been produced with teh force (by by R. Srpska)
if you fulfil all these 3 conditions than you can be independet if not you are minority.
If you fulfil all conditions and you are still treated as minority- that makes you unique case- KOSOVA.
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Matthew, 23 August 2008 19:58)
Matthew, you entire post about Krjina and Bosnia fails in front of the point 3.
Serbs had no territorial continuity- hence they had to ethnically clean the land.
So it makes no sense what you say.
Moreover, they fail in front of point 1 too.
Basques are in aq much more similar situation with Kosova than any other case in Europe. But they too fail to enter in the unique case- they are not oppressed, and far far from what K-Albanians suffered with Serbia.
This douesn't mean that I don't support Basque cause. I think Spain (who guess what does not recognize Kosova) should approach this issue as Canada: allow Basques in referendum to declare if they want to be independent or be part of Spain. Basques are mature ppl hey now what is teh best fro them. And this wil strengthen teh >Spanish democracy.
Point 2 should be specified. The majority needs to be assured in relative and absolute terms. The allaged minority needs to make a consistent % in the country and needs to be in larg number (in lichtenstein is easy to be majority in relative terms).
Hence, the Irish in north Ireland fail under point 2.
I would limit for now in Europe. Now you will take other cases arround teh world but I could say let them make their case.
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at SMILE,
but if its true then albanians really are a unique case. what other nation in europe lived in an area for 8000 years, or indeed 4000, or 2000, without creating a state, a culture, an army, producing artists and scientist and above all national physical monuments. dont get me wrong, i believe you that you were there all the time. but where is that albanian church, mosque, temple, bridge built by an albanian, that watchtower, anything, that trace which every nation leaves when they live in a place and own it?
(smile, 23 August 2008 22:02)
do you excpect Illyrians to have churches,mosques?? do you know where was Jesus in that time? in his father...
About monuments and bridges, do you think they resisted the invasions including the slav one, which destroy everything in order to claim the land as empty.
As long as we were living there, the land is ours. what we do with it is our problem, not yours.
Illyrians had a country and that was Roman Empire=EU today. But serbs came along and they destroy everything was build, and they build serb churches instead, lots of them, because we needed more and more churches, they are very usefull.
pre 15 godina
"For the stability of the planet, you should have discussed partition. Your people are only slightly better at treating their minorities than Serbs are, there’s no moral justification for you ruling over the Serbian areas of Kosovo"
Mathew,
It's the Serbs that do not want. They can take the North and give 100,000 Albanians and Presevo Valley, right next to Kosova. They are being discriminated as well and unemployment is 70%. Serbs want it all.
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It looks like its burning under the little feet of the West, thus an old, worn out, pathetic and patronising mantra is taken out of the cupboard.
Everyone knows it created a precedent, and those that didn't know it will, now know it has. This ridiculous claims are pointless.
Anyone with any 3 brain cells working simultaniously will see that there is NOTHING unique about Kosovo (unless you count presance mini Guatamano Bay called Bondsteel).
Noone EVER bothered to explain WHY Kosovo is a unique case.
That is like saying in court in defence of a murderer
''homocide is illegal. Except in certain unique cases when commiting a homocide is acceptable. Depending on who the purpotrator of homocide is dependes if its unique or not.''
You'd be laughed out of court with such statements. Kosovo is a unique case, sounds just as ridiculous, and those who claim it will also be laughed out of International Court.
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the only thing that make kosovo unique is the huge amount of money spent by the US, UN and ALLIES on this place as compared to other more impoverized countries in the world.
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This is just more meaningless diplomatic rhetoric. Just words that give no explanation. The supporters of an independent Albanian Kosovo want to create a Western puppet state in the Balkans, that is what makes it unique. This project was well orchestrated and goes back well over a decade. In reality though, the truly unique aspect of an independent Albanian Kosovo is, that it will not work. The West is slowly starting to learn this.
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The borders of Yugoslavia are solid and represent a sovereign nation. Clearly Serbia's and Georgia sovereignty are equally vailid - no differences.
A foreign, UN, presence to keep the peace is not a valid reason to carve new puppet states out of sovereign nations.
Imperial encouragement (by EU/US/NATO to Albanians) for a non-engagement policy in peace talks cannot be used as a reason to violate a nations borders.
Secessionist terrorist/guerilla actions, no matter which super power supports it, cannot be rewarded and certainly cannot be seen a unique.
EU/US/NATO support their interests. This is not unique in politics.
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This article says nothing substantial. It just reports the opinions of one individual; an opinion that is increasingly losing its legitimacy as more areas of the world seek to enter the parastate status that Kosovo is now in.
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If the French opinion were truly analyzed it would be called-Orwellian----but thats a bad description.
Who cares what the French think-most serbs remember the french Mirage jets dropping bombs on our bridgeS.
Nothing else matters, im tired of the french and thier speedos. Sarkozy should concentrate on his tan and stop pretending hes an independent european leader.
pre 15 godina
If France declares Kosovo to be a unique case, does it imply that they will not try to incorporate Wallonia, now its population declared to be interested? Changing sovereignty at the demand of the population we will not do twice? May be the Belgians can say something too about the uniqueness of Kosovo.May be they can get French Flandres back, ethnically cleansed by Louis XIV from any Dutch speaking people.
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On 22 August 2008 14:53, Truth & Heart wrote:
"Republica Srbska’s borders are war borders and never existed before."
All borders, everywhere, are war borders. It is just a matter of finding out which war.
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On 22 August 2008 16:18, limited wrote:
"Secessionist terrorist/guerilla actions, no matter which super power supports it, cannot be rewarded and certainly cannot be seen a unique."
One mans terrorists, is another mans freedom fighters.
I am sure Nazi occupation forces in Denmark regarded our resistance fighters as evil terrorists running around blowing up rail roads and weapons factories.
So be careful before you label some group as terrorists - history sometimes as a strange way of redefining labels.
--
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According to French and German books KiM population in the 16th century accounted 3% of Albanians.
no comment
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Why oh Why do they say Kosovo is so unique in this world full of seperatist movements?
its unique because they say it is. thats all----its the way dictators phrase things. Kosovo is unique because they want it to be. Nothing else.
It always falls back to the meaning of is-----we have the clinton years to thank.
Kosovo is totally unique----lets believe that until south ossetia raises its national flag and the ETA places another bomb.
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(Milan Radosavljevic, 23 August 2008 01:14)
The French and the rest of the world says that the Kosovar road to independence lays no foundation to others which seek statehood. The Serbs say that the Kosovars have laid a foundation for "separatists" as a precedent. The Kosovars say that they are unique. Why does it matter who says it? You Serbs claim that Kosova is your territory, and continually aspire to former Greater Serbia. Just because you say Kosova is yours, it does not make it yours. I could go tomorrow in Washington and proclaim it independent, it doesn't mean I have my own state. Until Serbia has physical control over Kosova (Kosovo) and has its' presence through military and legislative control Kosova will be independent.
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“Is your justification for not supporting the Albanians in their unique case because they are white, a racist policy in itself? (Doni, 22 August 2008 18:55)”
Doni, I’ve posted literally thousands of times on B92 and my views are always consistent. I support the partition of Kosovo and always have for the same reason I support RS, Krajina, Kurdistan, Ossetia etc. Of course you take the intellectually lazy route and did not address the issue, how is Kosovo unique, what sets it apart from the other conflicts in the world? Certainly your people deserve to live free of oppression, but why not us? Why not the rest of the world?
Having one policy non-Serb Europeans, and a completely opposite one for the rest of the world does smack of racism I think. Why do Americans not care when millions die in Africa, yet a few thousand deaths in Europe are suddenly the “worst crimes since WWII”?
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It's pitiful to listen to the Albanians trying to describe why Kosovo is a unique case. They try to create a case which doesn't exist, in keeping with the US pushed idea of "uniqueness".
You'll lose the GA vote at the UN, the decision at the ICJ and ultimately US and EU support. it might take many years, but Kosovo ISN'T a state and never will be. The best you can hope for is for Serbia to recognise Kosovo and partition it, but if you do that you'll be kissing goodbye to the only real source of income Trepca.
However you look at it, you Albanians have lost and Serbia cannot lose.
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I wrote a comment, a comment in which I agreed with brumsila and added some arguments, but as it could have been expected, it was censored. ( and of course it was not censored because there was any use of derogatory speech - there wasn´t any )
if you bring up arguments against the supporters of that puppy-toy-"republjik" - you get censored.
but knowing that this is B92, and who is paying, it´s no mystery anymore.
real journalism is something completely different.
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Ben,
Clearly Serbs were a majority in Krajina and large parts of Bosnia, and did not use force to attain that. In fact Serbs were the victims of genocide in WWII in those regions which was a major contributing factor in Serbs going from the largest ethnicity in all of Bosnia, to the second largest. Might I also remind you that Albanians ethnically cleansed roughly HALF the Serbian population in Kosovo after the NATO bombing, so according to your own rules, you do not deserve independence, especially in those areas that had a Serb population before the bombing. Croatia did the same in Krajina AND The Federation in Bosnia has only a 2% minority population, while RS has a 12% minority population. Who are the worse offenders? Who are the biggest victims of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans?
You then go on the proclaim “only” indigenous populations deserve the right to self determination without defining just what those conditions should be. 1,000 years? 10,000 years? 100,000 years?
Regardless, your situation is hardly unique in that respect either, the Basque, the Irish, the Kurds, all native populations present before the country that rules them now were in place or existed. According to your definition, you clearly support the right of the Hispanic population in California-Texas to seek independence.
I honestly don’t think you actually understand what the definition of “unique” is.
pre 15 godina
its unique because i say so? thats a fine intellectual argument and also shows how french education pays off :) but a good argument too. russia is saying the same south ossetia and kosovo are nothing alike, in other words, we support serbian integrity but not georgian, because south ossetia is a unique case. they already came up with exactly how that is, cant remember the details:)) so, kosovo is a unique case, cechnya is a unique case, south ossetia is another, not to mention lovely abkhazia. you see? the meaning's been taken out of international order and relations. its funny when you say all this but its deadly dangerous for so many people all over the globe.
as for this
'If you take a look at how Kosovo was awarded to Serbia in 1913, you will see that there were 2, not 1 plans of the international community as to which country Kosovo should belong, Albania or Serbia.'
the first time albanian state emerged in all of human history was in 1913. that is a historical fact. albanian tribes lived in the territory of today's albania but they never organized themselves in anything resembling a state. so in 1913, everything albania got was given to it by the great powers as a gift. on the other hand, kosovo is serbian heartland since the middle ages. somehow shortly after we slavs arrived here, we managed to organize ourselves into a state such as they were then, and then into a kindgom, and then into an empire. after the turkish invasion we regained our statehood and our nation built back modern serbia. later on some of our land was also regained, certainly our national core, kosovo. but of course we graciously let go of the whole of bosnia, the whole of macedonia, and much of greece :)
this is quite simple. its historical facts.
also i notice some serbs argue with albanians when albanians say that they're not really albanians but ilyrians. who have been in the balkans for i think, 8000 years? personally i have no problem with this. so be it. but if its true then albanians really are a unique case. what other nation in europe lived in an area for 8000 years, or indeed 4000, or 2000, without creating a state, a culture, an army, producing artists and scientist and above all national physical monuments. dont get me wrong, i believe you that you were there all the time. but where is that albanian church, mosque, temple, bridge built by an albanian, that watchtower, anything, that trace which every nation leaves when they live in a place and own it?
pre 15 godina
Dear Mr. Frederic Desagneaux...your comment is insulting and not at all becoming of an intelligent person. Let me ask ...was Srpska Krajina a unique case, in your mind?
pre 15 godina
Ben,
Serbs were a majority in Krajina and many parts of Bosnia BEFORE the wars of the 90’s, and even more so before they suffered genocide in WWII. I have no idea where you get the idea that they were not. If the fact that ethnic cleansing was committed by some Serbs somehow invalidates this, then you’re saying Kosovo doesn’t deserve independence either since some elements of the Albanian population in Kosovo engaged in ethnic cleansing after the NATO bombing.
So now you’re adding oppression, being European and having a minimum of 1.8 million people to the requirements for being unique?
As far as being European, that enforces my argument that it’s a racist policy.
However, taking all that into account, since Turkey is considered European, the Kurds still have a better and stronger case on every single item you mentioned. They have 30 million to your 10, and they don’t even have one country. 30,000 people have died in the conflict in recent years in Turkey alone, 15 times the amount that led to the NATO bombing in Kosovo. They’ve had chemical weapons used against them by Saddam, a form of oppression you never had to experience. They’ve been fighting for independence for centuries, far longer than your people.
Nothing you’ve said makes Kosovo unique in any way. Those are just arguments to support Kosovo independence or arguments against Serb areas being treated in the same manner (racism perhaps?).
“Now you will take other cases arround teh world but I could say let them make their case.”
I think you’re basically admitting there really is in reality nothing whatsoever unique about Kosovo, in fact it closely shares many similarities to other regions in the immediate vicinity, and other areas of the world have even stronger arguments supporting their independence drives. You seem to be confusing the difference between being “Unique” and being morally entitled to independence.
You’re not “unique” but the problem is your international partners have made it a requirement that it must be “unique” so it does not affect the stability of the rest of the world. Already we’re seeing the effects of the abandonment of the negotiating process.
For the stability of the planet, you should have discussed partition. Your people are only slightly better at treating their minorities than Serbs are, there’s no moral justification for you ruling over the Serbian areas of Kosovo. You’ve proven over the last decade that you’re just as capable of dishing out the vengeance as are the Serbs.
BTW Ben, by constantly using the term “teh” you give away your age. My kids type like that and so do trolls. Do not feed the Trolls.
pre 15 godina
Doni, if after all those centuries you haven't left a trace how can you prove you were there in any substantial numbers at all?
In case of Serbs, there is plenty of proof. Centuries old churches and monasteries.
This proves Serbian ownership of the land.
How can you tell us that Serbs had Kosovo only recently? Who built on that land for centuries then?
I would love to see a map of Albania where it shows Kosovo being part of it. Now how about you guys show us that and I will agree that Kosovo is indeed Albanian.
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