Russia suspends cooperation with NATO

Russia does not have the same industrial and manpower potential. The "oil power", which made her crazy will not last and is not sufficient to realize her imperialistic dreams.
(Joe, 22 August 2008 1

Iam not sure that you comprehend the meaning of your postings.Can you explain
how is Russia imperialist at
present?How many counties have they attacked the last
20 years?How many military bases does Russia have in foreigh countries?
It is the US with its actions that tries to irk Russia.Encirclement of Russia
-under the pretext of attacks
from Iran & Korea-,remember the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
Poland,by accepting the missile systems,risks a serious confrontation with Russia.Since the missile system is introduced for the protection of the US i cannot
see any tangible benefits to
Poland apart from the desire
of its leders to elevate its
image as a European power in the same league as that of Germany & France.
The truth is,though,that the
US never awarded Poland the same status as they crave.
Poland hasn't even brokered a
deal for a visa-waver for its
citizens travelling to US.

"Given NATO's own action, White House Spokesman Gordon Johndroe says Russia's decision to end military cooperation with NATO does not mean much."

This is hilarious. Americans seem to have really short memory, or complete lack of knowledge of history.

This could well be a begining of a new Cold War, and when the doody hits the fan, Americans and all those 'brave' little countries who hide behind the illusion of American power, will end up REALLY caring about Russian cooperation...NATO can only manage countries which are 100 smaller than themselves.

NATO can't deal with Afghanistan and Iraq, they're challanging Russia.

Seriously now...

BKK,

I agree with you in one thing, the second Cold War most likely started. The first one was forced upon the West by an expansionist Russia (called differently)aiming for world domination. The West and democratic Western values won it some 40 years later. The "evil empire" as it was called by president Reagan collapsed from its internal weaknesses and deprivations of human rights.
This second Cold War is also forced upon the West. People in Europe realized in the last 2 weeks that Russia did not change. It was very reveling yesterday to read the New York Times' article "Georgian Crisis brings attitude change to a flush Poland". The Russian Aggression was a wake-up call to all Europeans and especially for those of the Central and Eastern part, who suffered so much at the hand of the Russians.
The good thing is that all those countries are now in the NATO and the US is on their side. The second Cold War will also be won by the West. This one will not last as long because despite the same push for domination of neighboring countries the current Russia does not have the same industrial and manpower potential. The "oil power", which made her crazy will not last and is not sufficient to realize her imperialistic dreams.

“The Russian Aggression was a wake-up call to all Europeans and especially for those of the Central and Eastern part, who suffered so much at the hand of the Russians. (Joe, 22 August 2008 15:35)”

Actually Joe, you have it wrong blaming the crimes of the GEORGIAN Stalin on the Russians. Stalin was most certainly a monster and committed a great number of crimes, including murdering tens of millions of Russians. However, to lay the blame for those crimes on the Russians, and not Stalin is very odd. Keep in mind Stalin grew up in Gori, and the roughness and lawlessness of that town highly contributed to Stalin’s personality and resulted in the crimes we saw during his regime. Stalin was a brutal dictator and eliminated all opposition and dissent. The Russians had no say in the crimes that were committed, certainly some collaborated with him for personal gain, but there is absolutely no doubt who was firmly in charge. The Russians suffered far more under Stalin than anyone else.

Its as silly as your arguments that the Serbs are responsible for the crimes against the Hungarians in Vojvodina after WWII ended, those were ordered by Tito, a Croatian, and then carried out by a CROATIAN general. Somehow in your mind, Serbs were running Yugoslavia the entire time. If that was the case, why autonomy for Kosovo and not for Krajina?

You just like to blame whoever is convenient for your biased world view.

One thing about the US Joe, since you often seem to confuse it with a dictatorship. Here in the US we value dissent as the highest form of democracy, yet I constantly see you call for people who disagree with the current government to leave the US or that they are somehow unpatriotic or don’t deserve to live here. You have a lot to learn about your adopted country.

Kosovo is inside internationally recognized borders of Serbia but this hasn't stopped America from trying to take it.

So why should George or any other region of the world be exempt from this sort of thing? What makes Kosovo so different to the rest of the world?
Only one thing makes it different. US says it's different and that should be enough for all of us.
Such arrogance from Bush & Co.
Thank God they are leaving. Let's hope the next guy is a little more reasonable.

`U.S. President George Bush says South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of Georgia's international recognized borders and Russia must not lay claim to the territories.`
That genius Cowboy George and his posse is at it again. Talking about Georgia`s territorial integrity while trampling on Serbia`s, with not a clue as to how ridiculous this double standard sounds to the rest of the world.
Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

svojgazda,

So who are the "new rulers" ??
If there would be some new ones we all would know it. It is the 21st century when news reach people instantly. How is it that your important news of "new rulers" reached only Serbia and not the rest of the world?

Just more arrogant rhetoric from DC. They cannot accept the fact that they are not the rulers of the universe anymore. This is just the beginning. Many large nations in the world are getting stronger, both economically and militarily, while the US is getting weaker. Spread yourself thin, and you become impotent. America is truly a "Unique Case".

Leonidasi,

The answer to your question is awfully simple. After the big collapse of 1991 Russia was down and out economically. The GDP was down 40-50% or more. It was a depression type situation. The population suffered greatly. I remember that some Russians from New York made big money by sending over container-loads of used cloth (normally sent to Africa) and damaged can food, that they bought here for pennies. Than came 1998, the financial collapse, when people lost their savings, bank deposits.
Russia even had problems to feed her soldiers. Navy ships were rusting in ports, military plans were grounded due to lack of fuel. In such a situation no country can even dream to bother its neighbors.
As a result and as a rear event Russia's neighbors were safe for a short time.
But the billions of oil money changed all that. Instead of improving the lot of the population (half of it still live in deep poverty) Russia started to pump money into the military again. Threatening messages toward Poland and the Baltics became common and frequent. Old Cold War flights of Russian bombers got reinstated along the coaslines of Norway, Great Britain, Alaska, around Guam..etc to irk the West.
Lately Russia wanted to re-establish military bases in Cuba but that country did not agree. In the coming years Russia will very much try to install military bases again because they feel that financially they can efford it again.
And about the visa-waver: it is just a question of time. Definitely they deserve to get it way before the Greeks.
But in the new era of renewed Russian menace the Poles know fort well that for them national security is hundred times more important than visa free travel. What would be the use of traveling visa free if suddenly they would lose their national independence and freedom again? If they would be reduced to a satellite or colony again?

Russia will withdraw from Georgia when NATO withdraws its troops from Afghanistan, Kosovo and Iraq.

The screams and threats from the White House are ridiculous and non-justified since “unique case” seems does not work as Uncle Sam and his European satellites planned. They really look powerless as wounded beasts. Anyhow, Russia does not do anything that NATO already does not do worldwide.

Matthew,

Dissent is one thing and something healthy and democratic.
Constantly dumping on their native country, openly wishing its military and economic collapse, never expressing the slightest love for it - as I observed by so many American Serbs - is an other thing. That is not dissent, that is hostile attitude. No country needs hostile citizens. And believe me I learned a lot about my adoptive country. I had the chance to meet a lot of my fallow citizens, collegues - both US and foreign-born, many speaking with an accent - who never displayed hostility or hate for our great country but affection and pride. That is fortunately the overwhelming majority.
I hope very much that this will help you understand my views and occasional criticism. You seem to be one of the few Serbs, who do not feet the category described above.

"Given NATO's own action, White House Spokesman Gordon Johndroe says Russia's decision to end military cooperation with NATO does not mean much."
I fully agree with the above statement. Who cares about Russia.

Joe, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me in a civilized manner.

However, I do actually believe that military and/or economic collapse would do this country and our people a world of good, we need to learn humility. We have grown too arrogant, aggressive, complacent and selfish. I am actually far more radical than any of the posters here.

Many of the Serb Diaspora are tired of constantly being demonized here in the media in such a one sided manner.

Ever heard the saying “I love my Country, but fear my Government”?

Americans have a right and a duty to criticize our government and its actions in the loudest possible terms.

I strongly believe in such things as the right to burn the American Flag, one of the highest forms of dissent. Something, which I suspect you misunderstand, and probably are opposed to. The things you say, and the way you say it, are far too close to the way people who want to outlaw flag burning are like, and that frankly scares me.

It’s alright to be angry, it’s alright to shout that at the top of your lungs, and to rage against the powers that be.

That Joe, is the true strength of a democratic system and why our system is so adaptable to changing times and social structure. That Joe, is what millions of Americans were willing to put their lives at risk to protect in WWII and what we believe in here.

The right to proclaim your feelings of dissent in whatever form you feel expresses that best, without fear of exile, or sanction, or imprisonment.

I’m proud of my country, and of the role my family has played here as Congressmen, judges, doctors and teachers. We have done well and I love my freedom and I never miss an excuse to use it.

However, one thing I can not stand is someone telling me, or anyone else, how to speak about my country, what to think, or that others do not belong here for stating their opinion. That is not what democracy is.

By condemning others for voicing their opinions, no matter how offensive they may be, you only serve to bolster those forces in our society that would like to take away our freedoms, those that thrive on fear and xenophobia. I personally will not stand idly by while I see all that I love about our country taken away, and destroyed. I do not want a return to McCathyism, of “us” and “them”, “good” Americans and “bad” Americans.

"Given NATO's own action, White House Spokesman Gordon Johndroe says Russia's decision to end military cooperation with NATO does not mean much."
I fully agree with the above statement. Who cares about Russia.

BKK,

I agree with you in one thing, the second Cold War most likely started. The first one was forced upon the West by an expansionist Russia (called differently)aiming for world domination. The West and democratic Western values won it some 40 years later. The "evil empire" as it was called by president Reagan collapsed from its internal weaknesses and deprivations of human rights.
This second Cold War is also forced upon the West. People in Europe realized in the last 2 weeks that Russia did not change. It was very reveling yesterday to read the New York Times' article "Georgian Crisis brings attitude change to a flush Poland". The Russian Aggression was a wake-up call to all Europeans and especially for those of the Central and Eastern part, who suffered so much at the hand of the Russians.
The good thing is that all those countries are now in the NATO and the US is on their side. The second Cold War will also be won by the West. This one will not last as long because despite the same push for domination of neighboring countries the current Russia does not have the same industrial and manpower potential. The "oil power", which made her crazy will not last and is not sufficient to realize her imperialistic dreams.

svojgazda,

So who are the "new rulers" ??
If there would be some new ones we all would know it. It is the 21st century when news reach people instantly. How is it that your important news of "new rulers" reached only Serbia and not the rest of the world?

Leonidasi,

The answer to your question is awfully simple. After the big collapse of 1991 Russia was down and out economically. The GDP was down 40-50% or more. It was a depression type situation. The population suffered greatly. I remember that some Russians from New York made big money by sending over container-loads of used cloth (normally sent to Africa) and damaged can food, that they bought here for pennies. Than came 1998, the financial collapse, when people lost their savings, bank deposits.
Russia even had problems to feed her soldiers. Navy ships were rusting in ports, military plans were grounded due to lack of fuel. In such a situation no country can even dream to bother its neighbors.
As a result and as a rear event Russia's neighbors were safe for a short time.
But the billions of oil money changed all that. Instead of improving the lot of the population (half of it still live in deep poverty) Russia started to pump money into the military again. Threatening messages toward Poland and the Baltics became common and frequent. Old Cold War flights of Russian bombers got reinstated along the coaslines of Norway, Great Britain, Alaska, around Guam..etc to irk the West.
Lately Russia wanted to re-establish military bases in Cuba but that country did not agree. In the coming years Russia will very much try to install military bases again because they feel that financially they can efford it again.
And about the visa-waver: it is just a question of time. Definitely they deserve to get it way before the Greeks.
But in the new era of renewed Russian menace the Poles know fort well that for them national security is hundred times more important than visa free travel. What would be the use of traveling visa free if suddenly they would lose their national independence and freedom again? If they would be reduced to a satellite or colony again?

Matthew,

Dissent is one thing and something healthy and democratic.
Constantly dumping on their native country, openly wishing its military and economic collapse, never expressing the slightest love for it - as I observed by so many American Serbs - is an other thing. That is not dissent, that is hostile attitude. No country needs hostile citizens. And believe me I learned a lot about my adoptive country. I had the chance to meet a lot of my fallow citizens, collegues - both US and foreign-born, many speaking with an accent - who never displayed hostility or hate for our great country but affection and pride. That is fortunately the overwhelming majority.
I hope very much that this will help you understand my views and occasional criticism. You seem to be one of the few Serbs, who do not feet the category described above.

Kosovo is inside internationally recognized borders of Serbia but this hasn't stopped America from trying to take it.

So why should George or any other region of the world be exempt from this sort of thing? What makes Kosovo so different to the rest of the world?
Only one thing makes it different. US says it's different and that should be enough for all of us.
Such arrogance from Bush & Co.
Thank God they are leaving. Let's hope the next guy is a little more reasonable.

"Given NATO's own action, White House Spokesman Gordon Johndroe says Russia's decision to end military cooperation with NATO does not mean much."

This is hilarious. Americans seem to have really short memory, or complete lack of knowledge of history.

This could well be a begining of a new Cold War, and when the doody hits the fan, Americans and all those 'brave' little countries who hide behind the illusion of American power, will end up REALLY caring about Russian cooperation...NATO can only manage countries which are 100 smaller than themselves.

NATO can't deal with Afghanistan and Iraq, they're challanging Russia.

Seriously now...

Just more arrogant rhetoric from DC. They cannot accept the fact that they are not the rulers of the universe anymore. This is just the beginning. Many large nations in the world are getting stronger, both economically and militarily, while the US is getting weaker. Spread yourself thin, and you become impotent. America is truly a "Unique Case".

`U.S. President George Bush says South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of Georgia's international recognized borders and Russia must not lay claim to the territories.`
That genius Cowboy George and his posse is at it again. Talking about Georgia`s territorial integrity while trampling on Serbia`s, with not a clue as to how ridiculous this double standard sounds to the rest of the world.
Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

Russia does not have the same industrial and manpower potential. The "oil power", which made her crazy will not last and is not sufficient to realize her imperialistic dreams.
(Joe, 22 August 2008 1

Iam not sure that you comprehend the meaning of your postings.Can you explain
how is Russia imperialist at
present?How many counties have they attacked the last
20 years?How many military bases does Russia have in foreigh countries?
It is the US with its actions that tries to irk Russia.Encirclement of Russia
-under the pretext of attacks
from Iran & Korea-,remember the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
Poland,by accepting the missile systems,risks a serious confrontation with Russia.Since the missile system is introduced for the protection of the US i cannot
see any tangible benefits to
Poland apart from the desire
of its leders to elevate its
image as a European power in the same league as that of Germany & France.
The truth is,though,that the
US never awarded Poland the same status as they crave.
Poland hasn't even brokered a
deal for a visa-waver for its
citizens travelling to US.

“The Russian Aggression was a wake-up call to all Europeans and especially for those of the Central and Eastern part, who suffered so much at the hand of the Russians. (Joe, 22 August 2008 15:35)”

Actually Joe, you have it wrong blaming the crimes of the GEORGIAN Stalin on the Russians. Stalin was most certainly a monster and committed a great number of crimes, including murdering tens of millions of Russians. However, to lay the blame for those crimes on the Russians, and not Stalin is very odd. Keep in mind Stalin grew up in Gori, and the roughness and lawlessness of that town highly contributed to Stalin’s personality and resulted in the crimes we saw during his regime. Stalin was a brutal dictator and eliminated all opposition and dissent. The Russians had no say in the crimes that were committed, certainly some collaborated with him for personal gain, but there is absolutely no doubt who was firmly in charge. The Russians suffered far more under Stalin than anyone else.

Its as silly as your arguments that the Serbs are responsible for the crimes against the Hungarians in Vojvodina after WWII ended, those were ordered by Tito, a Croatian, and then carried out by a CROATIAN general. Somehow in your mind, Serbs were running Yugoslavia the entire time. If that was the case, why autonomy for Kosovo and not for Krajina?

You just like to blame whoever is convenient for your biased world view.

One thing about the US Joe, since you often seem to confuse it with a dictatorship. Here in the US we value dissent as the highest form of democracy, yet I constantly see you call for people who disagree with the current government to leave the US or that they are somehow unpatriotic or don’t deserve to live here. You have a lot to learn about your adopted country.

Russia will withdraw from Georgia when NATO withdraws its troops from Afghanistan, Kosovo and Iraq.

The screams and threats from the White House are ridiculous and non-justified since “unique case” seems does not work as Uncle Sam and his European satellites planned. They really look powerless as wounded beasts. Anyhow, Russia does not do anything that NATO already does not do worldwide.

Joe, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me in a civilized manner.

However, I do actually believe that military and/or economic collapse would do this country and our people a world of good, we need to learn humility. We have grown too arrogant, aggressive, complacent and selfish. I am actually far more radical than any of the posters here.

Many of the Serb Diaspora are tired of constantly being demonized here in the media in such a one sided manner.

Ever heard the saying “I love my Country, but fear my Government”?

Americans have a right and a duty to criticize our government and its actions in the loudest possible terms.

I strongly believe in such things as the right to burn the American Flag, one of the highest forms of dissent. Something, which I suspect you misunderstand, and probably are opposed to. The things you say, and the way you say it, are far too close to the way people who want to outlaw flag burning are like, and that frankly scares me.

It’s alright to be angry, it’s alright to shout that at the top of your lungs, and to rage against the powers that be.

That Joe, is the true strength of a democratic system and why our system is so adaptable to changing times and social structure. That Joe, is what millions of Americans were willing to put their lives at risk to protect in WWII and what we believe in here.

The right to proclaim your feelings of dissent in whatever form you feel expresses that best, without fear of exile, or sanction, or imprisonment.

I’m proud of my country, and of the role my family has played here as Congressmen, judges, doctors and teachers. We have done well and I love my freedom and I never miss an excuse to use it.

However, one thing I can not stand is someone telling me, or anyone else, how to speak about my country, what to think, or that others do not belong here for stating their opinion. That is not what democracy is.

By condemning others for voicing their opinions, no matter how offensive they may be, you only serve to bolster those forces in our society that would like to take away our freedoms, those that thrive on fear and xenophobia. I personally will not stand idly by while I see all that I love about our country taken away, and destroyed. I do not want a return to McCathyism, of “us” and “them”, “good” Americans and “bad” Americans.