Slovakia: No change in Kosovo position

“Small countries have no other means of survival than international law. We don’t have fighter aircraft or atom bombs to do as we please around the world, as some countries do. The only artillery we can use in discussions are the paragraphs of international law. We’re convinced that in the case of Kosovo it has been trampled on, and that’s why we see no reason to change our minds,” stressed Fico.

Those words are pure poetry. It is so nice to see that there are so many other world leaders who are not afraid to speak the truth even though it offends the 'imperial masters', like Fico. Thank you Slovakia, you are a great ally and are showing your neighbours, the Czechs, how they should behave.
Cheers!

Bravo Slovakia. Small in territory but big on guts.
You are a shining example of decency in this corrupt world.

Many thanks slovakia for backing Serbia and for not joining the shameful 45.

"Dear Slovakians you can not hide the shame you are in, regardless of whether you recognise Kosovo or not. Hungarians in Slovakia deserve self-determination too.

I think President Wilson would be terrified to see that his 'Principle of Self-Determination' in the 21st century is being caged. SHAME on Slovaks and the rest who deny any nation's self-determination."

Fortunately you don't know what you're talking about.

First of all, "Kosovars" are not a nation. They're Albanians whose right of self-determination has already been realized by formation of Albania.

You should understand that every country in the world has its own minorities as these are the fragments of other nations. If these minorities would enforce its right for self-determination as the right for creating its own state, world would be cut to pieces.

By the way, you knew that there live around 1 million Slovaks in USA and Canada? Should they declare their own state too? I already see how delighted Americans would be. Or perhaps you would like to tell us, where the limits of such "self-determination" should lie. Which group is privileged enought to possess such right and which one is already out. Is one city or one village big enough to declare its independence? Or it should be at least 1 million, 2 millions inhabitants..? I guess at least 2 millions so that Kosovo can fit in :-)

Cannot help but contrast the comments of 'Olf' above with the statesmenship of the Slovakian PM.

One uses any excuse or rationale to justify their 'cause of independence', seemingly perfectly happy to 'trample' international law when it suits them - all for the sake of their 'pseudo-state'.

The other makes a simple & dignified statement of fact, all the more telling as it is only 'small' Slovakia that he speaks for.

Well said Mr Fico.

“I think President Wilson would be terrified to see that his 'Principle of Self-Determination' in the 21st century is being caged. SHAME on Slovaks and the rest who deny any nation's self-determination.
(PRN, 19 August 2008 16:53)”

Remind us again PRN about your stance on the North of Kosovo? You support the parallel institutions and the Serb elections there obviously.

Oddly enough, I don’t seem to remember the last time you called for RS and Krajina to get independence?!?!?!

Jan Andersen, you want to know why it's a bad thing to create smaller countries.
Fist, those countries are weak and at the mercy of bigger countries.

Second, the reason why they want to break away. If just by simply becoming a majority by means of immigraion and high birth rate they think they deserve to break away, that's not good enough. You cannot move to a country and become a majority in a small part of it and then say you want to take it with you. If that were they case then five million or so Muslims in England and France would have the same right as two million Albanians in Kosovo.

It's like you taking renting a room in your house to a couple who then go onto having many children, thus making you the minority in your own house. Do you give the rest of the house to them? Theft is theft however you look at it.

Kosovo Albanians aren't called Albanians for no reason. They come from Albania. Yes, they have been in Kosovo for hundreds of years, but so have the Serbs and Kosovo is legally Serbian. How do you think they became the majority there? They weren't always the majority.

No changes expected anyway. Slovakia is soon to hold elections so they are using Kosova issue for their gains.
Slovakia is a small country unheard in EU. They are trying to make some noise but to no notice. They can still hold recognition of Kosova but they are doing no favour not harm to themselves.
International law that they mention, I think that Russia can give them a lesson on this one. Georgia respected International law and want protection of International law but it seem as International law is not applicable for them. Slovakia is the same, they can only read and interpret the law as they wish, when it comes to applicability this law would just exclude them.

What Peggy said is not really far to any hot headed Slovak nationalist. That comment would make them think as they have some kind of protection, while protection is only on papper and not applicable.

# 11

" "If these minorities would enforce its right for self-determination as the right for creating its own state, world would be cut to pieces."

And that would be bad thing because??? "

Because it would lead to imminent destabilisation of the whole world. Consequences that would arise from such approach generally applied would result in open conflicts all around the world. Besides these people here are talking about ethnical minorities. I didn't say a word about merging smaller nations into federations. I don't see any reason why Denmark should join up with Sweden or Norway.

There exists the concept of nation as the notion of specific group to which the right of self-determination is applied. But here this privileged right is mixed up with ethnical minorities that already possess their "mother" state from which they have originally emerged. I agree that generally it's healthy and natural that a country possesses, besides state-founding nation, certain ratio of citizens which identify themselves with some other nation. But these citizens also adopt citizenship of this country, and, as a result, the country expects some loyalty from them in return. In the matter of fact they are guests in someone other motherland!

But some people are suggesting, that these minorities should also possess right for self-determination. Can you see the difference now? I'm not persuading anybody. I simply asked a question where the limits of such "self-determination" should be. Ethnical minorities can count from few individuals to hundred thousands. So now what. Should we dissect existing arrangments and after every wave of immigration or population explosion revise existing frontiers? Because that's what these people are suggesting.

We understand Slovakia. It would be a suicide, internally, for Slovakia, Spain and Cyprus to recognise us right now. WE KNOW THIS.

However, not recognising Kosovo independence, Hungarian, Basques and Northern Turkish indepedence is AGAINST, international law.

Dear Slovakians you can not hide the shame you are in, regardless of whether you recognise Kosovo or not. Hungarians in Slovakia deserve self-determination too.

I think President Wilson would be terrified to see that his 'Principle of Self-Determination' in the 21st century is being caged. SHAME on Slovaks and the rest who deny any nation's self-determination.

# 16 nik

"Accepting the blunt lies of president Benes about the ethnicity of the majority of the population of what today is souther Slovakia and applying the victor's justice they created a problem that remains unresolved even today when both Slovakia and Hungary are in the Eu and the Schengen zone!"

Well you fail to realize elementary principles. As do some Hungarians in their persisting desilusions of great Hungary (look at the comment from Hruz). While Austria as defeated country disintegration of Austro Hungarian Empire accepted as historical fact and today reminds it only with nostalgie, Hungarians are still taught in their schools in a great harm which has happened to them when they had to answer for their role in the war. In fact, even though they signed Treanon treaty, they never really accepted it. Besides that, Hungarians had to answer in Versaille for strong assimilation of other nations as to which the resulting borders crossed ethnically-mixed territories. But this has no meaning to resolve with you as it's typical that hungarian view deny any of these actions.

Look at Germany instead, they didn't have problems with accepting their role in 2nd WW, their self-reflection can be observed in every little move. But Hungarians, on the contrary, would like the most if the Middle Ages returns. While they should be working on their economy which is falling to recession. They behave like a dog in a cage, they argue and dispute with every one of their neighboors from Slovakia to Romania and acuse them from their own behaviour. What other country is doing this in Europe. no one, just Hungary.

"Remind us again PRN about your stance on the North of Kosovo? You support the parallel institutions and the Serb elections there obviously."

I do. They should have every right to have the same institutions as Albanians in Presevo Valley and Monte Negro have!

Many thanks slovakia for backing Serbia and for not joining the shameful 45.
(Serb Allay, 19 August 2008 14:45)

"The shameful 45" excellent way too put it Serb allay. This should be used as the slogan in the PR campaign.

Martin SVK, you are right. The Humgarian attempt tp "Magyarize" its non Magyar subjects was reprehansible. But the Treanon treaty was a recepy for disaster! Half of the Hungarian population was non Magyar. May be they had to let go more that half of their territory. But to anex two tirds of it, with the new borders cutting trough Hungarian populated majorities everywhere... that was not wise! Neither did and of the leter attempts of compromise matterialize! Pal Teleki was happy to sign a treaty with Yugoslavia for the return of the lans north of the Danube-Tisa canal, in return to nonagression pact! The attempt failed, Hungary joined the Thriple Alience... he commited suicide!
Even the small Hungarian majority authonomy in Romania, was disbanded.
I think they have aquised to their nes borders, but some transborder unification of the Hungarians in the EU is taking place.
As for the Austrians, they had many twists of faith in the 20 th century. First an empire, than a state with uncertain identity, then they actively participated in some of the nazi war crimes, then spent some time as Europe noman's land during the Cald War,finaly to become a normal member of the EU, (even the being isolated for a while for electing a war criminal for president)

If, at some point in the future, all the international conditions have been met, we’ll discuss it...” said Fico, reports the Slovakian SITA agency.
As I always say... "It is about time" when "all the international conditions" will be met, and Slovakia "we’ll discuss it" and recognize Kosovo.
It is about time. None expect Slovakia to do it now. No before Greece, Macedonia, Montenegro, Portugal and Malta. But it is about time. That time will come as independece day came for Kosovo.

Look who's talking, an arrogant nationalist, well representing a Quasi State that sits on ancient Hungarian soil.

Of course he is advocating international law now, trying to shift the topic of self determination of minorities in Slovakia and the biggest injustice of mondern history, when Hungary was divided among the its rogue neighbours, curring villages and families in half, totally neglecting basic human rights.

Followig that, they deported and looted from their properties millions of Germans and Hungarians by the Benes decree that they still refuse to anull.

Congratulations Slovakia, well done, you deserv to be in EU, and you fit well in the company of Romania (no comment needed), Greece, Cyprus and Spain.

By the way, who cares of a small country's small politician saying notging new? B92. Congratulations :)

On 19 August 2008 19:30, Martin, SVK wrote:

"If these minorities would enforce its right for self-determination as the right for creating its own state, world would be cut to pieces."

And that would be bad thing because???

I really don't understand why a few big countries are so much better than a multitude of smaller countries.

Are you suggesting that Denmark, a small nation of 5 million, should join up with Sweden and Norway to create a 20 million or so country? Because that would be better? How? Or that Luxemburg, Monaco, or Andora should take down their flags and join up with their neighbours? Why??

I have heard this argument about "independence is a bad, bad thing", but I have never heard a good explanation as to why.

“I do. They should have every right to have the same institutions as Albanians in Presevo Valley and Monte Negro have!
(Dashnori i Satam, 19 August 2008 21:18)”

Dashnori,

I actually support the partition of Kosovo, so it seems we agree. I’ve always been vocal about a negotiated and peaceful settlement. I believe if you give us the North and an agreement with our Churches similar to what Mussolini and the Vatican came to, I don’t see why we shouldn’t give you Presevo Valley and the rest of Kosovo.

In all honesty, such a broad definition for the Right To Self Determination could ONLY benefit BOTH Serbs and Albanians. So why should we fight so? We actually have a lot of common causes and regional similarities.

How bout we recognize parts of Kosovo and parts of Macedonia for you, and you recognize Krajina and RS? After all, its all up to individual nations to do what they want now.

My personal opinion is the EU will become far more centralized and function more and more like the United States. We started as more or less independent countries and lost more and more rights to the Federal government, mostly under the “interstate commerce clause”. The founding fathers believe strongly in a very weak federal government, yet we’ve found ton’s of loopholes through that. The EU will end up the same, it’ll have to.

I believe that when the EU is united into one country, that they democratic voice of Serbs (and Albanians) will be artificially diluted by being scattered among the various neighboring countries. The old view of the nation state is clearly wrong, and doesn’t fit into the new reality of the EU. Why not have constantly changing voting demographics? In the US we have a census every 10 years to determine voting districts. Wouldn’t it make a lot of sense in Europe to be able to vote by Ethnicity instead of geographic region?

Martin, SVK: I think President Wilson would be terrified to see that his 'Principle of Self-Determination' in the 21st century is being caged.

Martin, the world paid a hefty price for twarting president Wilson's principles of self determination in 1919, sepeciall in drawing the borders of the new multinational mini-empires Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. The denial of selfdetermination to the germans brought Hitler to power. Sadly the Western democracies in Munich in 1938 gave armed and treatening Hitler what they denied a flrgeling and unarmed democratic Germany two decades earlier! Accepting the blunt lies of president Benes about the ethnicity of the majority of the population of what today is souther Slovakia and applying the victor's justice they created a problem that remains unresolved even today when both Slovakia and Hungary are in the Eu and the Schengen zone! May be it's time in the Serbian textbooks to be written that the incorporation of ALL of Kosovo (and ALL of today's Macedonia) in the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovens was a grave strategic mistake!

Martin,

As someone whose parents were born in today's Slovakia and today's Romania on my father's side, and having a Slovak (not ethnic Hungarian) wife, I have very good experience through family tragedies of my grand parents boarding a train with one suitcase and thrown out of Czechoslovakia.

Tell me, how is this thing that a country which was forced into war by Austria will be punished severely, while Austria and Germany is almost intact, as they were before the war?

What sense it makes when even the "guilty" Austria that dragged us into WWI takes a bite in Hungary, taking territories?

Tell me, if it is a justice when a town is cut by half by barbed wire and the post office and the railway station remains on the other side. No need to mention pure Hungarian population.

How can you justify taking away pure Hungarian land with no Slovaks or Romanians whatsoever.

It is one thing to punish a country unjustly and taking away land with minorities, but at least the vultures at Trianon should have excercised self control. What did they achieve, WWII and that Hungary had no chioce but to ally with Germany.

Believe me no Hungarians would want back parts of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slovenia etc. Also, no reason, Slovakia is now EU country, my wife is employed in Hungary, no need for visas, etc.

If only there were no jackals like Meciar, Fico etc, Slovakia would not be the black sheep of EU.

About their economy and introducing Euro, Slovaks who commute to Hungary for employment know better that everything has a price. 20% unemployment, highest in EU. There may be no deficit in the budget but no proper health care, infrastructure, pensions etc.

Matthew: "I actually support the partition of Kosovo, so it seems we agree. I’ve always been vocal about a negotiated and peaceful settlement. I believe if you give us the North and an agreement with our Churches similar to what Mussolini and the Vatican came to, I don’t see why we shouldn’t give you Presevo Valley and the rest of Kosovo."

Matthew, you are a LONLEY, LONELY voice. Had simmilar offer been made in the early 90's (When Serbs controled Kraina) plus an offer to give Prohor Pcinski to Macedonia, Caribrod (Dimitrovgrad) to Bulgaria and Northern Vojvodina to Hungary, a common Balkan peace proposal would have emerged! Croatia would have to be satisfied with Western Slavonia.
But you know the theory of the inviolablity of the "Internationaly recognised" borders and the "administrative" borders within the defunct Yugoslavia, plus the theory of the Serbian sovereignity over ALL of Kosovo! Serbia paid dearly for the double standarts. Today Krajna is Gone! But the rest of the proposals are still viable!

Peggy said "Kosovo Albanians aren't called Albanians for no reason. They come from Albania."
But I was wondering something else to?? Where did the Srbs come from?? Who knows maybe you guys where always in Kosovo.

“Matthew, you are a LONLEY, LONELY voice.”

I know and that saddens me, but at least my views are consistent and I advocate for the same rights for Serbs and other ethnicities. It’s too bad we didn’t use this as an opportunity to re-evaluate Wilson’s ideas in the modern world. We could have avoided a lot of innocent bloodshed if we had just put some thought into what we were doing.

Unfortunately, looks like we’re headed for a messy partition of Kosovo, which is very sad…

Albanian, PPQ:

Well I don't like to disappoint you guys, but it won't happen. Slovakia offered certain guarantees to serbian government and this had happened some time ago. Even if slovak govermnent would be liable to Kosovo recognition, which it's not and this consensus goes througout all political spectrum, slovak government is tied up with parliamentary declaration from the last year that it won't recognize Kosovo. You cannot possibly expect that external expectations will change this position..

I don't know if you guys already know this, but Malta has recognised Kosovo as a Republic. Slovakia will do eventually just give it more time.

Serb Allay, make that 46.
Malta recognized today. Another EU country in the bag.

Slovakia will be feeling lonely soon.

# 23 Hruz

This is typical blind and ignorant one-side view of hungarian chauvinism.

The fact that Hungarians can express and raise their voices to such heights at all is thanks to generally open and tolerant approach towards ethnical Hungarians in Slovakia. Unfortunately Slovaks living in Hungary never had such luck.. lost behind dark curtain of Hungarian and hungarian language.

When south Czechoslovak border was set up in 1919 (after lost War that Austro Hungarian Empire initiated and pull all relevant contemporary world into), there were both geographical AND ethnical aspects taken into account. Primary purpose of "vultures" from Trianon at that time was to fulfill political and power vacuum in Central Europe between Germany and Russia. In the meantime they wanted someone who would represent (or at least won't be against) their interests as those who had won the war. Central Europe was the place where interests of major countries, major powers, interfered. As they concluded that Austro Hungarian Empire, medieval congromerate of many nations, was death, they prefered state formation that would give best chances to survival. As a result they decided for geologically homogeneous area whilst specific status of Danube as "international river" in Europe was taken into account. Hungarian aristocracy was present at that negociations, once again defending one and only territorial integrity of lost Empire.

Concerning ethnical side of the problem. Let me remind you of hard Magyarization of non-hungarian nations and of hegemonic position of hungarian language in Austro Hungarian Empire which begans in the middle of 19th century and lasted until its dissolution in 1918. Discrimination of non-hungarian ethnic, abolishment of non-hungarian schools, magyarization of Slovaks. Faked census with demographically impossible increases in hungarian population: at the beginning, Slovaks were listed as "non-hungarians speaking hungarian", next census "Hungarians speaking slovak", and finally only "Hungarians".. very smart approach, don't you think? So much about "pure hungarian majority".

In a matter of fact, when south border was drawn in 1919, there were estimates of 400-500 thousands Slovaks (or speaking slovak language) in the territory of nowdays Hungary. Today, slovak minority in Hungary count to 20 000 at maximum, yet in 1990 there were around 100 000 slovak speaking inhabitants in Hungary.

And pure hungarian land? There isn't even such thing as "pure Hungarian". When old Magyars came into Europe somewhere from middle Asia (or preciously invaded it), Carpahnian basin was already inhabited by Slavs. Since then, Magyars have been integral part of Central Europe and in subsequent centuries they mixed their blood with surrounding slavs. I doubt that Magyars of today are even from 10% old Magyars that came to Europe in 9th century.

It's strange, not so surprising however, that you don't have problems taking slovak woman as your wife, yet, at the same time, you don't have problems throwing dirt at Slovak Republic. I just wonder for how long will hold that awareness of slovak roots, especially when when I see talking you about Slovakia as "Quasi State sitting on ancient Hungarian soil".


some citations:

"About their economy and introducing Euro, Slovaks who commute to Hungary for employment know better that everything has a price. 20% unemployment, highest in EU."

Your information are outdated to say at least. Or you deliberately lie. Unemployment in Slovakia is falling since 2004 and was at level of 11.1% in 2007. If you don't believe me, feel free to check eurostat databases at http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat. EU average is around 7% which is also rate of unemployment in Hungary. I don't know where you get an information that economic growth is necessary in contradiction with decreasing unemployment. I didn't even hear about Slovaks commuting to Hungary. Maybe your wife is, but you should reconsider taking her the representative sample of slovak population. I heard however about Hungarians reinstating their enterprises in Slovakia because of untransparent tax system in Hungary. And I also heard about Hungarians registering their vehicles in Slovakia for some absurd restrictions that your govermnent is enforcing..


"There may be no deficit in the budget but no proper health care, infrastructure, pensions etc."

Approval for Euro and economy growth in Slovakia, which in fact was the highest in Europe last year (and even one of the highest in the world!), is thanks to the reforms of tax, pension and healthy system from 2004-2006 which Slovakia brought to an end as the only one from all four V4 countries. That are exactly those reforms your govermnent is so reluctant to adopt and even to begin with. That's why hungarian GDP growth is stalling at 1% while slovak GDP raised by 10% in 2007.
You and your goverment are rather wasting your time with so popular national agenda, don't miss any opportunity to catch up every little Slota's word (whose SNS voting potential in fact is limited to maximum 13-14%) and don't forget throw dirt on Slovakia abroad every time you can. While in the meantime your Fidezs party, which silently supports paramilitary Magyar Garda - organisation that should have been dissolved long time ago, continue to gain popularity. That's very nice picture of yours that you are presenting.

Martin

A nice survey to reflect on the Slovak mind: 57.7 % of Slovaks from the 15 year old population think that Slovakia fro Slovaks, and Hungarians should go back behind the Danube. "Madari za Dunaj!" 63% think that Hungarians should not be allowed to speak in Hungarian only in Slovakian in Slovakia. (source, Bratislava Open Society Institute CVEK)

Explain this! And the towns and villages and cut in half by Trianon.

# 28 Hruz

"A nice survey to reflect on the Slovak mind: 57.7 % of Slovaks from the 15 year old population think that Slovakia fro Slovaks, and Hungarians should go back behind the Danube. "Madari za Dunaj!" 63% think that Hungarians should not be allowed to speak in Hungarian only in Slovakian in Slovakia. (source, Bratislava Open Society Institute CVEK)"

Go and search on youtube www.youtube.com for keyword "Slovakia". You'll find a quantum of insults from your fellow-citizens on Slovaks. Lots of them hiding behind hungarian language. They don't even defer to instult in discussions under videos with slovak anthem. On rather you can just straight search for keyword "Felvidék". So what do you expect from them when they see this? Besides that preferences of Fidesz in Hungary are not result of support from adolescents. That one you presented yourselves after all. Take self-reflection at yourselves first.

"And the towns and villages and cut in half by Trianon."

For how long will you cry over split milk? Either you don't realize or don't wan't to realize what type of compromis had there to be taken. Delegations from Central Europe played role of figurants at that negotiations. France, Britain, Italy took into consideration their opinions just in cases that were in their direct concern. Hungarian delegation was there, lobbing for its side. Borders crossed ethnically mixed territories and behind frontier, on the hungarian territory, lived around 500 000 slovak speakers to whom Magyars even didn't allow to open slovak schools. Slovak presence was practically eraticated from there till today. That hungarian historicians deny to give you these information, highlighting only "great hungarian cuture", that's your problem and your image.

That border crossed a village when the principle one to one was applied? What do you expect me to say to that? Were they forbidden to cross border too? Or were they divided by a great wall like when Berlin was split?

What happened to slovak speakers on hungarian territory? Why there were only 18 000 Slovaks listed in hungarian census? Even in Serbia or Romania slovak minority count greater numbers. In spite of the fact, that in times of Austro Hungarian Empire dissolution, there lived many more Slovaks on hungarian territory which is just round the corner that in distant Serbia or Romania.

Like recently this year, when hungarian regionals displaced ethical Slovaks in hungarian village Mlynky from slovak cultural house which they built by their own. Last village in Hungary where more that half of its population declare to be of slovak origin. Only after direct intervention of slovak government and prime minister Fico on highest international level, when Slovakia threatened to take it even to Brussels, even promised to finance rebuilding of new cultural house if necessary, thinks began to move on. Or do you really take us for such fools? Go and take a look at yourselves first.

No changes expected anyway. Slovakia is soon to hold elections so they are using Kosova issue for their gains.
Slovakia is a small country unheard in EU. They are trying to make some noise but to no notice. They can still hold recognition of Kosova but they are doing no favour not harm to themselves.
International law that they mention, I think that Russia can give them a lesson on this one. Georgia respected International law and want protection of International law but it seem as International law is not applicable for them. Slovakia is the same, they can only read and interpret the law as they wish, when it comes to applicability this law would just exclude them.

What Peggy said is not really far to any hot headed Slovak nationalist. That comment would make them think as they have some kind of protection, while protection is only on papper and not applicable.

If, at some point in the future, all the international conditions have been met, we’ll discuss it...” said Fico, reports the Slovakian SITA agency.
As I always say... "It is about time" when "all the international conditions" will be met, and Slovakia "we’ll discuss it" and recognize Kosovo.
It is about time. None expect Slovakia to do it now. No before Greece, Macedonia, Montenegro, Portugal and Malta. But it is about time. That time will come as independece day came for Kosovo.

We understand Slovakia. It would be a suicide, internally, for Slovakia, Spain and Cyprus to recognise us right now. WE KNOW THIS.

However, not recognising Kosovo independence, Hungarian, Basques and Northern Turkish indepedence is AGAINST, international law.

Dear Slovakians you can not hide the shame you are in, regardless of whether you recognise Kosovo or not. Hungarians in Slovakia deserve self-determination too.

I think President Wilson would be terrified to see that his 'Principle of Self-Determination' in the 21st century is being caged. SHAME on Slovaks and the rest who deny any nation's self-determination.

"Remind us again PRN about your stance on the North of Kosovo? You support the parallel institutions and the Serb elections there obviously."

I do. They should have every right to have the same institutions as Albanians in Presevo Valley and Monte Negro have!

On 19 August 2008 19:30, Martin, SVK wrote:

"If these minorities would enforce its right for self-determination as the right for creating its own state, world would be cut to pieces."

And that would be bad thing because???

I really don't understand why a few big countries are so much better than a multitude of smaller countries.

Are you suggesting that Denmark, a small nation of 5 million, should join up with Sweden and Norway to create a 20 million or so country? Because that would be better? How? Or that Luxemburg, Monaco, or Andora should take down their flags and join up with their neighbours? Why??

I have heard this argument about "independence is a bad, bad thing", but I have never heard a good explanation as to why.

Peggy said "Kosovo Albanians aren't called Albanians for no reason. They come from Albania."
But I was wondering something else to?? Where did the Srbs come from?? Who knows maybe you guys where always in Kosovo.

Look who's talking, an arrogant nationalist, well representing a Quasi State that sits on ancient Hungarian soil.

Of course he is advocating international law now, trying to shift the topic of self determination of minorities in Slovakia and the biggest injustice of mondern history, when Hungary was divided among the its rogue neighbours, curring villages and families in half, totally neglecting basic human rights.

Followig that, they deported and looted from their properties millions of Germans and Hungarians by the Benes decree that they still refuse to anull.

Congratulations Slovakia, well done, you deserv to be in EU, and you fit well in the company of Romania (no comment needed), Greece, Cyprus and Spain.

By the way, who cares of a small country's small politician saying notging new? B92. Congratulations :)

Bravo Slovakia. Small in territory but big on guts.
You are a shining example of decency in this corrupt world.

Many thanks slovakia for backing Serbia and for not joining the shameful 45.

Cannot help but contrast the comments of 'Olf' above with the statesmenship of the Slovakian PM.

One uses any excuse or rationale to justify their 'cause of independence', seemingly perfectly happy to 'trample' international law when it suits them - all for the sake of their 'pseudo-state'.

The other makes a simple & dignified statement of fact, all the more telling as it is only 'small' Slovakia that he speaks for.

Well said Mr Fico.

“Small countries have no other means of survival than international law. We don’t have fighter aircraft or atom bombs to do as we please around the world, as some countries do. The only artillery we can use in discussions are the paragraphs of international law. We’re convinced that in the case of Kosovo it has been trampled on, and that’s why we see no reason to change our minds,” stressed Fico.

Those words are pure poetry. It is so nice to see that there are so many other world leaders who are not afraid to speak the truth even though it offends the 'imperial masters', like Fico. Thank you Slovakia, you are a great ally and are showing your neighbours, the Czechs, how they should behave.
Cheers!

“I think President Wilson would be terrified to see that his 'Principle of Self-Determination' in the 21st century is being caged. SHAME on Slovaks and the rest who deny any nation's self-determination.
(PRN, 19 August 2008 16:53)”

Remind us again PRN about your stance on the North of Kosovo? You support the parallel institutions and the Serb elections there obviously.

Oddly enough, I don’t seem to remember the last time you called for RS and Krajina to get independence?!?!?!

Jan Andersen, you want to know why it's a bad thing to create smaller countries.
Fist, those countries are weak and at the mercy of bigger countries.

Second, the reason why they want to break away. If just by simply becoming a majority by means of immigraion and high birth rate they think they deserve to break away, that's not good enough. You cannot move to a country and become a majority in a small part of it and then say you want to take it with you. If that were they case then five million or so Muslims in England and France would have the same right as two million Albanians in Kosovo.

It's like you taking renting a room in your house to a couple who then go onto having many children, thus making you the minority in your own house. Do you give the rest of the house to them? Theft is theft however you look at it.

Kosovo Albanians aren't called Albanians for no reason. They come from Albania. Yes, they have been in Kosovo for hundreds of years, but so have the Serbs and Kosovo is legally Serbian. How do you think they became the majority there? They weren't always the majority.

Matthew: "I actually support the partition of Kosovo, so it seems we agree. I’ve always been vocal about a negotiated and peaceful settlement. I believe if you give us the North and an agreement with our Churches similar to what Mussolini and the Vatican came to, I don’t see why we shouldn’t give you Presevo Valley and the rest of Kosovo."

Matthew, you are a LONLEY, LONELY voice. Had simmilar offer been made in the early 90's (When Serbs controled Kraina) plus an offer to give Prohor Pcinski to Macedonia, Caribrod (Dimitrovgrad) to Bulgaria and Northern Vojvodina to Hungary, a common Balkan peace proposal would have emerged! Croatia would have to be satisfied with Western Slavonia.
But you know the theory of the inviolablity of the "Internationaly recognised" borders and the "administrative" borders within the defunct Yugoslavia, plus the theory of the Serbian sovereignity over ALL of Kosovo! Serbia paid dearly for the double standarts. Today Krajna is Gone! But the rest of the proposals are still viable!

"Dear Slovakians you can not hide the shame you are in, regardless of whether you recognise Kosovo or not. Hungarians in Slovakia deserve self-determination too.

I think President Wilson would be terrified to see that his 'Principle of Self-Determination' in the 21st century is being caged. SHAME on Slovaks and the rest who deny any nation's self-determination."

Fortunately you don't know what you're talking about.

First of all, "Kosovars" are not a nation. They're Albanians whose right of self-determination has already been realized by formation of Albania.

You should understand that every country in the world has its own minorities as these are the fragments of other nations. If these minorities would enforce its right for self-determination as the right for creating its own state, world would be cut to pieces.

By the way, you knew that there live around 1 million Slovaks in USA and Canada? Should they declare their own state too? I already see how delighted Americans would be. Or perhaps you would like to tell us, where the limits of such "self-determination" should lie. Which group is privileged enought to possess such right and which one is already out. Is one city or one village big enough to declare its independence? Or it should be at least 1 million, 2 millions inhabitants..? I guess at least 2 millions so that Kosovo can fit in :-)

# 11

" "If these minorities would enforce its right for self-determination as the right for creating its own state, world would be cut to pieces."

And that would be bad thing because??? "

Because it would lead to imminent destabilisation of the whole world. Consequences that would arise from such approach generally applied would result in open conflicts all around the world. Besides these people here are talking about ethnical minorities. I didn't say a word about merging smaller nations into federations. I don't see any reason why Denmark should join up with Sweden or Norway.

There exists the concept of nation as the notion of specific group to which the right of self-determination is applied. But here this privileged right is mixed up with ethnical minorities that already possess their "mother" state from which they have originally emerged. I agree that generally it's healthy and natural that a country possesses, besides state-founding nation, certain ratio of citizens which identify themselves with some other nation. But these citizens also adopt citizenship of this country, and, as a result, the country expects some loyalty from them in return. In the matter of fact they are guests in someone other motherland!

But some people are suggesting, that these minorities should also possess right for self-determination. Can you see the difference now? I'm not persuading anybody. I simply asked a question where the limits of such "self-determination" should be. Ethnical minorities can count from few individuals to hundred thousands. So now what. Should we dissect existing arrangments and after every wave of immigration or population explosion revise existing frontiers? Because that's what these people are suggesting.

“I do. They should have every right to have the same institutions as Albanians in Presevo Valley and Monte Negro have!
(Dashnori i Satam, 19 August 2008 21:18)”

Dashnori,

I actually support the partition of Kosovo, so it seems we agree. I’ve always been vocal about a negotiated and peaceful settlement. I believe if you give us the North and an agreement with our Churches similar to what Mussolini and the Vatican came to, I don’t see why we shouldn’t give you Presevo Valley and the rest of Kosovo.

In all honesty, such a broad definition for the Right To Self Determination could ONLY benefit BOTH Serbs and Albanians. So why should we fight so? We actually have a lot of common causes and regional similarities.

How bout we recognize parts of Kosovo and parts of Macedonia for you, and you recognize Krajina and RS? After all, its all up to individual nations to do what they want now.

My personal opinion is the EU will become far more centralized and function more and more like the United States. We started as more or less independent countries and lost more and more rights to the Federal government, mostly under the “interstate commerce clause”. The founding fathers believe strongly in a very weak federal government, yet we’ve found ton’s of loopholes through that. The EU will end up the same, it’ll have to.

I believe that when the EU is united into one country, that they democratic voice of Serbs (and Albanians) will be artificially diluted by being scattered among the various neighboring countries. The old view of the nation state is clearly wrong, and doesn’t fit into the new reality of the EU. Why not have constantly changing voting demographics? In the US we have a census every 10 years to determine voting districts. Wouldn’t it make a lot of sense in Europe to be able to vote by Ethnicity instead of geographic region?

Martin, SVK: I think President Wilson would be terrified to see that his 'Principle of Self-Determination' in the 21st century is being caged.

Martin, the world paid a hefty price for twarting president Wilson's principles of self determination in 1919, sepeciall in drawing the borders of the new multinational mini-empires Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. The denial of selfdetermination to the germans brought Hitler to power. Sadly the Western democracies in Munich in 1938 gave armed and treatening Hitler what they denied a flrgeling and unarmed democratic Germany two decades earlier! Accepting the blunt lies of president Benes about the ethnicity of the majority of the population of what today is souther Slovakia and applying the victor's justice they created a problem that remains unresolved even today when both Slovakia and Hungary are in the Eu and the Schengen zone! May be it's time in the Serbian textbooks to be written that the incorporation of ALL of Kosovo (and ALL of today's Macedonia) in the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovens was a grave strategic mistake!

Many thanks slovakia for backing Serbia and for not joining the shameful 45.
(Serb Allay, 19 August 2008 14:45)

"The shameful 45" excellent way too put it Serb allay. This should be used as the slogan in the PR campaign.

“Matthew, you are a LONLEY, LONELY voice.”

I know and that saddens me, but at least my views are consistent and I advocate for the same rights for Serbs and other ethnicities. It’s too bad we didn’t use this as an opportunity to re-evaluate Wilson’s ideas in the modern world. We could have avoided a lot of innocent bloodshed if we had just put some thought into what we were doing.

Unfortunately, looks like we’re headed for a messy partition of Kosovo, which is very sad…

# 16 nik

"Accepting the blunt lies of president Benes about the ethnicity of the majority of the population of what today is souther Slovakia and applying the victor's justice they created a problem that remains unresolved even today when both Slovakia and Hungary are in the Eu and the Schengen zone!"

Well you fail to realize elementary principles. As do some Hungarians in their persisting desilusions of great Hungary (look at the comment from Hruz). While Austria as defeated country disintegration of Austro Hungarian Empire accepted as historical fact and today reminds it only with nostalgie, Hungarians are still taught in their schools in a great harm which has happened to them when they had to answer for their role in the war. In fact, even though they signed Treanon treaty, they never really accepted it. Besides that, Hungarians had to answer in Versaille for strong assimilation of other nations as to which the resulting borders crossed ethnically-mixed territories. But this has no meaning to resolve with you as it's typical that hungarian view deny any of these actions.

Look at Germany instead, they didn't have problems with accepting their role in 2nd WW, their self-reflection can be observed in every little move. But Hungarians, on the contrary, would like the most if the Middle Ages returns. While they should be working on their economy which is falling to recession. They behave like a dog in a cage, they argue and dispute with every one of their neighboors from Slovakia to Romania and acuse them from their own behaviour. What other country is doing this in Europe. no one, just Hungary.

Martin SVK, you are right. The Humgarian attempt tp "Magyarize" its non Magyar subjects was reprehansible. But the Treanon treaty was a recepy for disaster! Half of the Hungarian population was non Magyar. May be they had to let go more that half of their territory. But to anex two tirds of it, with the new borders cutting trough Hungarian populated majorities everywhere... that was not wise! Neither did and of the leter attempts of compromise matterialize! Pal Teleki was happy to sign a treaty with Yugoslavia for the return of the lans north of the Danube-Tisa canal, in return to nonagression pact! The attempt failed, Hungary joined the Thriple Alience... he commited suicide!
Even the small Hungarian majority authonomy in Romania, was disbanded.
I think they have aquised to their nes borders, but some transborder unification of the Hungarians in the EU is taking place.
As for the Austrians, they had many twists of faith in the 20 th century. First an empire, than a state with uncertain identity, then they actively participated in some of the nazi war crimes, then spent some time as Europe noman's land during the Cald War,finaly to become a normal member of the EU, (even the being isolated for a while for electing a war criminal for president)

Martin,

As someone whose parents were born in today's Slovakia and today's Romania on my father's side, and having a Slovak (not ethnic Hungarian) wife, I have very good experience through family tragedies of my grand parents boarding a train with one suitcase and thrown out of Czechoslovakia.

Tell me, how is this thing that a country which was forced into war by Austria will be punished severely, while Austria and Germany is almost intact, as they were before the war?

What sense it makes when even the "guilty" Austria that dragged us into WWI takes a bite in Hungary, taking territories?

Tell me, if it is a justice when a town is cut by half by barbed wire and the post office and the railway station remains on the other side. No need to mention pure Hungarian population.

How can you justify taking away pure Hungarian land with no Slovaks or Romanians whatsoever.

It is one thing to punish a country unjustly and taking away land with minorities, but at least the vultures at Trianon should have excercised self control. What did they achieve, WWII and that Hungary had no chioce but to ally with Germany.

Believe me no Hungarians would want back parts of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slovenia etc. Also, no reason, Slovakia is now EU country, my wife is employed in Hungary, no need for visas, etc.

If only there were no jackals like Meciar, Fico etc, Slovakia would not be the black sheep of EU.

About their economy and introducing Euro, Slovaks who commute to Hungary for employment know better that everything has a price. 20% unemployment, highest in EU. There may be no deficit in the budget but no proper health care, infrastructure, pensions etc.

I don't know if you guys already know this, but Malta has recognised Kosovo as a Republic. Slovakia will do eventually just give it more time.

Serb Allay, make that 46.
Malta recognized today. Another EU country in the bag.

Slovakia will be feeling lonely soon.

# 23 Hruz

This is typical blind and ignorant one-side view of hungarian chauvinism.

The fact that Hungarians can express and raise their voices to such heights at all is thanks to generally open and tolerant approach towards ethnical Hungarians in Slovakia. Unfortunately Slovaks living in Hungary never had such luck.. lost behind dark curtain of Hungarian and hungarian language.

When south Czechoslovak border was set up in 1919 (after lost War that Austro Hungarian Empire initiated and pull all relevant contemporary world into), there were both geographical AND ethnical aspects taken into account. Primary purpose of "vultures" from Trianon at that time was to fulfill political and power vacuum in Central Europe between Germany and Russia. In the meantime they wanted someone who would represent (or at least won't be against) their interests as those who had won the war. Central Europe was the place where interests of major countries, major powers, interfered. As they concluded that Austro Hungarian Empire, medieval congromerate of many nations, was death, they prefered state formation that would give best chances to survival. As a result they decided for geologically homogeneous area whilst specific status of Danube as "international river" in Europe was taken into account. Hungarian aristocracy was present at that negociations, once again defending one and only territorial integrity of lost Empire.

Concerning ethnical side of the problem. Let me remind you of hard Magyarization of non-hungarian nations and of hegemonic position of hungarian language in Austro Hungarian Empire which begans in the middle of 19th century and lasted until its dissolution in 1918. Discrimination of non-hungarian ethnic, abolishment of non-hungarian schools, magyarization of Slovaks. Faked census with demographically impossible increases in hungarian population: at the beginning, Slovaks were listed as "non-hungarians speaking hungarian", next census "Hungarians speaking slovak", and finally only "Hungarians".. very smart approach, don't you think? So much about "pure hungarian majority".

In a matter of fact, when south border was drawn in 1919, there were estimates of 400-500 thousands Slovaks (or speaking slovak language) in the territory of nowdays Hungary. Today, slovak minority in Hungary count to 20 000 at maximum, yet in 1990 there were around 100 000 slovak speaking inhabitants in Hungary.

And pure hungarian land? There isn't even such thing as "pure Hungarian". When old Magyars came into Europe somewhere from middle Asia (or preciously invaded it), Carpahnian basin was already inhabited by Slavs. Since then, Magyars have been integral part of Central Europe and in subsequent centuries they mixed their blood with surrounding slavs. I doubt that Magyars of today are even from 10% old Magyars that came to Europe in 9th century.

It's strange, not so surprising however, that you don't have problems taking slovak woman as your wife, yet, at the same time, you don't have problems throwing dirt at Slovak Republic. I just wonder for how long will hold that awareness of slovak roots, especially when when I see talking you about Slovakia as "Quasi State sitting on ancient Hungarian soil".


some citations:

"About their economy and introducing Euro, Slovaks who commute to Hungary for employment know better that everything has a price. 20% unemployment, highest in EU."

Your information are outdated to say at least. Or you deliberately lie. Unemployment in Slovakia is falling since 2004 and was at level of 11.1% in 2007. If you don't believe me, feel free to check eurostat databases at http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat. EU average is around 7% which is also rate of unemployment in Hungary. I don't know where you get an information that economic growth is necessary in contradiction with decreasing unemployment. I didn't even hear about Slovaks commuting to Hungary. Maybe your wife is, but you should reconsider taking her the representative sample of slovak population. I heard however about Hungarians reinstating their enterprises in Slovakia because of untransparent tax system in Hungary. And I also heard about Hungarians registering their vehicles in Slovakia for some absurd restrictions that your govermnent is enforcing..


"There may be no deficit in the budget but no proper health care, infrastructure, pensions etc."

Approval for Euro and economy growth in Slovakia, which in fact was the highest in Europe last year (and even one of the highest in the world!), is thanks to the reforms of tax, pension and healthy system from 2004-2006 which Slovakia brought to an end as the only one from all four V4 countries. That are exactly those reforms your govermnent is so reluctant to adopt and even to begin with. That's why hungarian GDP growth is stalling at 1% while slovak GDP raised by 10% in 2007.
You and your goverment are rather wasting your time with so popular national agenda, don't miss any opportunity to catch up every little Slota's word (whose SNS voting potential in fact is limited to maximum 13-14%) and don't forget throw dirt on Slovakia abroad every time you can. While in the meantime your Fidezs party, which silently supports paramilitary Magyar Garda - organisation that should have been dissolved long time ago, continue to gain popularity. That's very nice picture of yours that you are presenting.

Albanian, PPQ:

Well I don't like to disappoint you guys, but it won't happen. Slovakia offered certain guarantees to serbian government and this had happened some time ago. Even if slovak govermnent would be liable to Kosovo recognition, which it's not and this consensus goes througout all political spectrum, slovak government is tied up with parliamentary declaration from the last year that it won't recognize Kosovo. You cannot possibly expect that external expectations will change this position..

Martin

A nice survey to reflect on the Slovak mind: 57.7 % of Slovaks from the 15 year old population think that Slovakia fro Slovaks, and Hungarians should go back behind the Danube. "Madari za Dunaj!" 63% think that Hungarians should not be allowed to speak in Hungarian only in Slovakian in Slovakia. (source, Bratislava Open Society Institute CVEK)

Explain this! And the towns and villages and cut in half by Trianon.

# 28 Hruz

"A nice survey to reflect on the Slovak mind: 57.7 % of Slovaks from the 15 year old population think that Slovakia fro Slovaks, and Hungarians should go back behind the Danube. "Madari za Dunaj!" 63% think that Hungarians should not be allowed to speak in Hungarian only in Slovakian in Slovakia. (source, Bratislava Open Society Institute CVEK)"

Go and search on youtube www.youtube.com for keyword "Slovakia". You'll find a quantum of insults from your fellow-citizens on Slovaks. Lots of them hiding behind hungarian language. They don't even defer to instult in discussions under videos with slovak anthem. On rather you can just straight search for keyword "Felvidék". So what do you expect from them when they see this? Besides that preferences of Fidesz in Hungary are not result of support from adolescents. That one you presented yourselves after all. Take self-reflection at yourselves first.

"And the towns and villages and cut in half by Trianon."

For how long will you cry over split milk? Either you don't realize or don't wan't to realize what type of compromis had there to be taken. Delegations from Central Europe played role of figurants at that negotiations. France, Britain, Italy took into consideration their opinions just in cases that were in their direct concern. Hungarian delegation was there, lobbing for its side. Borders crossed ethnically mixed territories and behind frontier, on the hungarian territory, lived around 500 000 slovak speakers to whom Magyars even didn't allow to open slovak schools. Slovak presence was practically eraticated from there till today. That hungarian historicians deny to give you these information, highlighting only "great hungarian cuture", that's your problem and your image.

That border crossed a village when the principle one to one was applied? What do you expect me to say to that? Were they forbidden to cross border too? Or were they divided by a great wall like when Berlin was split?

What happened to slovak speakers on hungarian territory? Why there were only 18 000 Slovaks listed in hungarian census? Even in Serbia or Romania slovak minority count greater numbers. In spite of the fact, that in times of Austro Hungarian Empire dissolution, there lived many more Slovaks on hungarian territory which is just round the corner that in distant Serbia or Romania.

Like recently this year, when hungarian regionals displaced ethical Slovaks in hungarian village Mlynky from slovak cultural house which they built by their own. Last village in Hungary where more that half of its population declare to be of slovak origin. Only after direct intervention of slovak government and prime minister Fico on highest international level, when Slovakia threatened to take it even to Brussels, even promised to finance rebuilding of new cultural house if necessary, thinks began to move on. Or do you really take us for such fools? Go and take a look at yourselves first.