Ukraine offers West radar warning

To Ahmet Isufi:

If there are people like yourself who want to throw the accusitions against Russia, they should be at least be better informed because they just expose themselves.

Russia militarily - by even not considering the nuclear weapons - is 100 times stronger in comparison to both Ukraine and Poland.

Ukraine has just an army personel of about 80.000 troops with about 200 last generation tanks (T-80), about 80 Su-27 airfighters and about 210 MiG-29. Considerably strong force, all taken as a "gift" by the Soviet Union.

Poland is much MUCH weaker having only 48 F-16 as last generation fighters.

Are you aware of the Russian forces?? They have about 400 last generation Su-27 aircrafts, about 50 even more sophisticated Su-35 and about 520 MiG 29's!!! That make's it more than 1000 last generation aircrafts! Their equipment in the ARMY is similar, with thousands of last generation Tanks and vehicles.

So don't claim things like "Ukraine and Poland could take over Russia". Inform yourself first...

To Peter Sudyka:

Peter all these countries and especially Poland with the Baltic countries, show an animosity against Russia that cannot be explained by ANY historical facts.

They just hate Russia, trying to harm them in any way they can, and the reason is not the "conquer or the countless wars"!

Germany during ww2, totally destroyed the polish country, killed millions and millions of Polish citizens, and made a total destruction to the polish state that was 10 times more intense than any russian! Why the polish don't have the same feelings for the Germans today, but only for Russians who did nothing compared to them???

The same is true about Ukraine and the Baltic countries (Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia). The Germans totally did destroyed them during the WW2 but nooone is talking about that today?? They remember only the Russian occupation, which did nothing to them!

That's why I tell you that there is nothing about disliking Russia, because of historical reasons. They just hate Russia and show animosity for no reason.

Europe and the EU should take that very seriously into cosnideration and just force those weak countries (that need EU money more than everything) NOT to involve EU and the west, to their animosity against Russia.

"I have said it before, they(Ruskies) should pick someone their size.
(Ahmet Isufi, 17 August 2008 11:19) "

The same can be said for Nato back in 1999.

As for Ukraine, it would be wise for her to see what's unfolding in Georgia now. Sure, the US and EU have made a lot of noise .... and little else.

To paraphrase Ahmet Isufi in irony, the West dares not pick on someone near their own size. Georgia's president is finding this out belatedly to his chagrin.

To Peter Sudyka::

So, you say that the reason that your goverment decided to put missiles on your ground against Russia is just because they haven't "apologised" for what they did in 1600???

This what you tell me? Because, really I cannot find any other possible explanation for Poland allowing missiles into their ground that are directly targeting Russia.

If you know the reason, please tell us, as well as why only your Poland has decided to put this missiles together with Chech Republic, and no other country. I would really like to hear an explanation for that...

We have problems with Turkey today - not because of history - , but because almost every single day their fighter aircrafts are violating our air space into the Aegean sea and threat our sovereigty in the islands that thousands of Greeks are living. We are actually almost in a war situation - having our aircrafts figthing with theirs, over the aegean sea almost every day. This "relationship" has no similarities with the one you have with Russia today. It's very different...

I know that Germany is investing great amounts to your economy.. so that's why you love them so much? It seems that money can help - so the millions of polish that died into the concetration camps, and the total destruction can be forgotten easily...

The Germans might be investing huge amounts of money but the infrastructure of Poland is still 30 years behind, and trully I don't believe is better than Russia. I have visited both the two countries recently and I tell you that your infrastructure is much worse.... and has nothing to do with the one of a european state. Poland is still 20 years behind in everything.

My opinion is that the EU should have never accepted countries in the EU, like Poland or the Baltic countries. They are poor, weak undeveloped and they two things you only care about is how you will get the EU money and harm Russia. Nothing else.

Peter

Poland,Georgia,Ukraine and the baltic states are putting
into practice the US foreign policy dogma which can be read in the key"do as we say,
not as we do".
It is well known that the US-
under false pretences ie rogue states Iran,North Korea
-is trying to encircle Russia.The Poles,after endless prevarication,have signed on to the missile deal
which places them squarely in
Russia's fire line.
If a crisis arose in the near
future Poland shouldn't expect the US to send any troops into its territorry any more than it could send troops to Georgia or Iran.
The US is relatively weaker now than it was 20 years ago.
The country owes trillions of
dollars to China ,Japan and other Asian countries.History
repeats itself in the sense that great powers are brought
down not by military defeats but by debt and economic failure.
Russia's newly found confidence is mainly derived
from its vast mineral resources which in itself are
a big geopolitical factor.Furthermore,its current great-power behaviour
is fuelled by resentment and a desire for payback,after the humiliation of theYeltsin
era.
My point Peter is that Poland
and the rest of former soviet
states should stop playing the games devised by the neocons in Washington DC and
instead concentrate to better
the lives of their citizens.

The whole eastern Europe is full of little slave countries: yesterday they obeyed to Russians, today they serve Americans. They day before yesterday they served Austro-Hungarians or Turks.
The only free nation in mind on this part of the continent are Serbs. That is why they are allies of Russia, and will be of America very soon too. It is Serbia that is most respectable country between Paris and Moscow.

Ahmet,

The interesting thing is that the vast majority of the Ukraine's population (and even Poland's I believe) are totally against missile shields, joining the NATO pact etc.

Russia is against the ruling cliche of these "democracies" (not the people) and how they are letting themselves be used as pawns in America's empire games.

Bit like the K-Albanians... (the smallest pawn of all)

As I said, this is just a game for America and when they realize they can't "win" in Eastern Europe, they will go home, to cause trouble somewhere else.

Serbia, Russia etc are going no where, this is our neighbourhood, and you have to live with us (as we will live with you).

Wake up and come to terms with your real neighbours!

There is still time to negotiate a comprimise with Serbia.

commentator, italy and Nikola

I know you may be surprised by Ukraine's and Poland's stance towards Russia in recent years, but don't forget that Russia has never been involved in a war with Serbia and never tried to make it a part of their empire. Our experience with Russia is different.

Both Poland and the Ukraine have been subjected to:

1) Many invasions by Russia
2) Countless wars
3) Occupation
4) Assimilation of our lands into their empire
5) Destruction of our intelligentsia and others seen as a threat to their empire
6) Brutal Russification (mostly achieved through coercion)
7) Deportation
8) Restriction of freedom of speech and expression
9) Slave labor
10) Even flat out genocide (Holodomor and Katyn)

Now how do you think Poland and Ukraine should feel after witnessing how Russia treated Georgia in the recent war? Yesterday it was them, tomorrow it could be us. Russia would have no problem assimilating the Russian parts of Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and the Ukraine. They profess to respecting international law, but then break it by invading another country based on the premise that their rivals did it 10 years ago.

It just shows Russia cannot be trusted, though since Serbia has never had such problems with Russia, I can understand your stance, but you should try and understand ours.

Peter,

I trully admire your patience with the 2 Greeks, who do not rely on historical or current facts in their comments. On one side they wanted to upset you with their polemic. On the other side they just showd that their religious bond with the Russians override everything bad the Russians ever committed. It is trully a shame that they did not have "the privilege" to be a Russian satellite. They would have been able to compare it with Turkey's long occupation.
It is a well-known fact that if not those substantial billions of EU aid Greece would be not much better off today than Albania, Armenia, etc. In the NATO they are a completely unreliable partner. If in theory (I can not imagine it in reality)there would be one day a confrontation between NATO and Russia I am sure they would side with Russia. Thank God Turkey is there and would take care of them.

To Joe:

My friend, so much hate and envy about Greece... you must really hate them!

Greece was never like Albania or Armenia and of course it will never be.

You pray to God that the Turks will "take care" of Greece??
Well, you better pray to God that you will be like Greece one day.... which I don't think so.

The government of Ukraine has gone insane! Russia right now about to snap. Ukraine is pretty much asking Russia to annex its territory. First, they invade Georgia and win. Then they see the most the United States says is "This will sever Russian-American relations".. yeah big deal.

Now Poland has signed the deal for the anti missle defence system.. and now this Ukranian business.

If this along with the Polish agreement goes through.. Russia will very well annex Ukraine, Abkazia, South Ossetia, Belarus (rather peacefully) and will point missles all around Poland.

Hell, if Russia really wanted to.. they could pull all oil exports to Germany, France and other countries who recognized Kosovo to revoke their positions. It would anger Washington but it would bring the western and eastern parts of Europe more to a common ground.. even if it is through a hasty way.


Russia is Serbia's true friend. I support Serbia joining the EU.. but so does Russia. Serbia needs to be the closest with Russia while at the same time in the EU!

Commentator I 100% agree with you.

All Russia and Serbia want is to be respected. Serbia might now be able to earn that respect right away.. but Russia will demand it and will get it with interest.

Neither Russians nor Serbians want a bad relationship with the Western Europeans. We are all from Europe and we should be on a good relationship. Western Europe takes to much orders from Washington.. and the USA just keeps giving them out without realizing or caring that it is Western Europe who will deal with the results of those actions. Washington doesn't care if Kosovo, Anti missle sheilds, support of Georgia angers Russia because they will never feel the Russian anger.. it is the western Europeans who will.


I'm not saying for the west to just change everything it believes in.. but they need to find a common ground for the good of Europe.. because Serbs and Russians see themselvs as European and do not want hostility with its real neighbours.

The Greek

I think you need to read more on the history of Poland, the Baltics and the Ukraine with regards to Russia before you say that we "hate" Russians for no reason at all. Read as from the 1600's. I could say that the Greeks hate the Turks for no reason at all, when the Germans treated them so much worse in the war as well.

The Germans did horrible things, yes, but they accepted the borders they were given, they paid reparations/worked to fix what they did to those whom they enslaved in the war and they are the biggest investor into Poland and the Baltics today. Without them, our infrastructure would look like Russia. They pumped billions of Euro into our economies, they pumped billions of Lenin. Most importantly, they acknowledged that they did something wrong and apologized. The day Russia apologizes and acknowledges for anything will be the day people actually start trusting them. I don't get why you defend them so much, is it the Orthodox Christian bond?

To Peter Sudyka:

Hey Peter! Don't present false economic data about your economy in here, and please don't twist simple things!

Yes, you are very right that your economy IN TOTAL has the amount you said but the economic level of every country is based on the Gdp PER CAPITA and NOT in total!!!

That means how much money each citizen has and not in total. That means that the 620 billion is DIVIDED by your population (38 million)while our 361 is also divided by our population (11 million).

So see the official data by the IMF for this year for two countries are:

Greece: 32,421$ PER CAPITA
Poland: 16,600$ PER CAPITA

That means that your economy is HALF ours! Or in other words the average Greek salary is double yours! This is how economy of every country is measured!

As I said, Poland has a WEAK and undeveloped economy, it is one of the POOREST countries in the EU, with a GDP PER CAPITA less than the EU average, and I prove it you by giving you the official data by the IMF.

So don't say things like you have a "good prospect" and you have "620 billion in total"!

Your country is still 20 years behind my country and either you like it or not it has one of the weakest economies in the EU. Probaly in 20 years Poland will be like Greece today - or even better if you have that growth. But you have to wait for that..... and don't present false data in here. We all know how the economy is measured in every country.

To Mountie:

Right now Greece has a higer Gdp PER CAPITA than Spain, and sligtly lower than Italy.

Official data by the IMF for 2008:

Italy Gdp PER CAPITA: 35,386$
Greece Gdp PER CAPITA: 32,421$
Spain Gdp PER CAPITA: 31,471$

I think that tells you exactly in which level the Greek economy is today...

Of course there are a lot of richer countries... but mostly.. there are much MUCH poorer. Even inside the EU (see Poland above for example..).

I lkie to see Russia try a stunt with big Ukrain like they did with tiny Georgia.
I have said it before, they(Ruskies) should pick someone their size.
Aside from nuclear weapons, even Poland can take on Russian military at any given time.

As an independent and sovereign country, Ukraine has every right making the decisions it does. But I would seriously recommenend against taking such definitive strides towards the West when Russia is their biggest neighbor.

Ethnic Russians make up anywhere from 25% - 35% of Ukraine's population, and form absolute majorities in almost all areas east of Kiev. Moreover, they look to Moscow and not Kiev for support.

Not only in demographics, but also in economics does Russia still prove to be a major influence, as it forms one of Ukraine's largest, if not the largest, trading partner.

Ukraine would be wise to tread lightly and carefully in further embracing the West, otherwise it does risk a Russian response. While we may not see a military response, Moscow can simply shut the gas off.

Therefore, if the West wants to cultivate political development and further democratization in Ukraine, they need to definitively state that NATO membership is off the table. That's enough to please Russia. Besides, last I checked, a majority of Ukrainians, regardless of ethnic and linguistic indentity, are opposed to NATO membership.

It's one thing to not find oneself appeasing Russia. It's quite another thing to find oneself deliberately angering it.

Joe,

You seem to be losing control here.

Your arrogant comments, constantly bragging about the superiority of the USA, are offensive, embarrassing and offer nothing to global understanding.
Your high and mighty attitude only promotes discord among nations and promotes ill feelings toward the people of the United States.

I, unlike you, was born and raised in the United States and as a US citizen I find your arrogant comments to be an embarrassment.

I suggest you get off your high horse, Joe, leave your gated community and stop acting as if you’re better than everyone else.

The Greek

"So, you say that the reason that your goverment decided to put missiles on your ground against Russia is just because they haven't "apologised" for what they did in 1600??? "

Did you even bother to read what I put in my first post? Russia has and still is not giving us a single reason in the world to trust them. Even the last time we fought in a war against them, we lost hundreds of square kilometers of historically Polish land, 1.7 million people deported to slave labor camps (of which only a small number ever actually survived), raped thousands of our women and massacred over 20 000 people in the forests of Katyn. After that, we became a satellite of theirs where our economy was destroyed and where peaceful protests were put down by tanks. I don't know why the hell I am explaining this to a Greek, who never lived under Soviet rule. You never had to stand for hours in queues for rations, nor did you ever have nothing in the shops. If it weren't for you being a part of the West, Greece would be no different than Armenia.

BTW I hate America's foreign policy, but they have never done what the Russians did when it comes to us.

"Because, really I cannot find any other possible explanation for Poland allowing missiles into their ground that are directly targeting Russia. "

Go and read a history book. If Greece were a Soviet satellite, you would understand what I am talking about, otherwise I see that I am wasting my time explaining this to someone who does not want to understand because of some religious bond.

Also, how are INTERCEPTOR missiles directly targeting anybody if they are designed to DEFEND from nuke missiles?

"This "relationship" has no similarities with the one you have with Russia today. It's very different... "

Aha, so the genocide of the Pontic Greeks and 500 years of brutal Ottoman rule have nothing to do with the tensions in the Aegean Sea? I have been to both Rhodes and Crete, believe me, I know what the Greeks hate the Turks for.

"I know that Germany is investing great amounts to your economy.. so that's why you love them so much?"

No, we don't love them, we will never forget what they did to us, but this does not harm our present day relations as both sides are willing acknowledge the bad things we have done to each other and just move on. The Russians, on the other hand, are too stubborn and proud to admit.

"I have visited both the two countries recently and I tell you that your infrastructure is much worse"

Haha, now I know you have no idea what you are talking about! I have regularly been to Kaliningrad in my youth, and have visited Moscow too. Indeed Moscow is an impressive city, but the Kaliningrad Oblast is worse than even the poorest Ukrainian and Belarussian parts of south-eastern Poland, some villages have not changed since the 1900's. I doubt that any parts of Siberia, Southern Russia and Russia's Far East are any better. I don't know where you have been in Poland, but cities like Poznan, Warsaw, Krakow, Wroclaw and Gdansk are as European as can possibly be, not that much behind, just maintained less, but still years ahead of Russia and other CIS states.

BTW You think Greece would be like it is today if it weren't for the US/EU? Greece would look like the Balkans or the Caucasus if it wasn't for those terrible Germans.

"My opinion is that the EU should have never accepted countries in the EU, like Poland or the Baltic countries. They are poor, weak undeveloped and they two things you only care about is how you will get the EU money and harm Russia. Nothing else."

International Monetary Fund (2007) in millions of dollars

21 Poland 620,868
32 Greece 324,616

We are already twice as big as you are economically, and with our growth rate of 7% compared to yours of 3.4%, give us a few more years and our economy will be 4-5 times bigger than yours. We got in because we have potential, what some Greek thinks does not matter.

BTW You think if it wasn't to the foreign investments of the Dutch, Germans and the English that Greece would look remotely like Europe today?

Leonidas

And Russia should stop treating the countries that once were under their sphere of influence as their own 20 years after the Eastern Bloc fell. Given the chance, they will not hesitate to recognize and occupy South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transdniestr and Crimea, not to mention all the Russian speaking areas of their ex-Empire. Don't believe their international law lies, they have shown their morals with how the handled Georgia.

To Mirek London/Prague:

I was waiting when you will appear my friend saying the usual lies against Greece as you usually do: Let's take them one by one:

1) ""your country got to the EU only through the back door, literally begging individual EC countries (9 at the time) to pledge support for you,""

Lie! You have said that again, and I again told you that noone was begging any country. The decision was mainly French , and at that time my country had MUCH better economy than Chech Republic or other "eastern countries" (like yours I mean) today.

2) "now you are not that much richer. Slovenia is richer that you and Czech Republic is just behind you (for now)"

Total Lie!! Right now both Slovenia and even more the undeveloped Czech Republic is much MUCH behind the Greek economy.

Official data by the IMF for 2008:

Greece GDP per Capita:32,421$
Slovenia GDP per Capita:22,079
Czech GDP per Capita:17,070$

You have been liying again in other messages of yours about your economy and the Greek economy- giving "wishes" about how your economy would like it to be and how it trully is.

You see the difference now?? Your trully eastern country will be like mine probably in 15 years time.

I know that you have a great desire to "feel west" as you present this opinion in every message. That's why you depend your "westernism" only in religious matters and geographical position, simply because these two things are the only one that makes you "west" and nothing else. You never achieved anything else as a country.

And the only way to feel "west" is your religion and your geographical position, simply because there is nothing else really "west" on your country... nothing.

That's why you feel that envy about Greece. You forget about the culture. You forget about the situation of the economy now and in the past. You just say " I am west because I am christian catholic and my country is in the center of Europe, while your is christian orthodox and in the Balkans". What has your country ever accomplished really??? In economy any "western" look like? In culture any "western" thing that your country has offered. Nothing...

You can have that "thirst" about being "west" but your country has been East officially for the last 60 years... and by cosidering the current situation in Economy, where your country is still one of the most undeveloped in Europe, it is still "east".

Well, sorry to tell you but for being "west" you need other things than just "a religion" or a geographical position. You need economy. You need culture.

Keep trying being "West" Mirek. You are in a good path. In 20 years you will reach that level probanly...

""Both Poland and the Ukraine have been subjected to:

1) Many invasions by Russia
2) Countless wars
3) Occupation
4) Assimilation of our lands into their empire
5) Destruction of our intelligentsia and others seen as a threat to their empire
6) Brutal Russification (mostly achieved through coercion)
7) Deportation
8) Restriction of freedom of speech and expression
9) Slave labor
10) Even flat out genocide (Holodomor and Katyn) ""

WOW Peter Sudyka! The Albanians have been through the same thing with the Serbs, Kosovar Albanians included. Now you understand why we don't trust them and why independence is necessary for Kosovars!

Mirek,

I don't see the end to your bullying - more and more outside the topic. Relax a bit and focus more on real problem(s) - not personal offenses.
You moved to "WEST" and forgot: that's NOT only material values that counts...enjoy the heritage, love, pride, peace, dignity - etc.

Peter,

I can understand you a bit, but some countries should take a hit to stop US bullying as self-proclaimed only super power in current World.
Otherwise you can see consequences - Iraq, Kosovo, Afganistan and who know who is next on the menu.
But Mirek buys it - all plastic -french fries and burgers - drive-through thinking.

To Joe:

Man, you are a citizen of the "mightiest country" in the world - US that is - but you still avoid to tell us from which country you really are from??

Why do you do so, are you so ashamed for your origins?

What can I say... for people who even avoid to say their true roots and pretend that they are "mighty americans", I have no comment.

Tell us really where you are coming from, where your origins are really from and stop the "fairy tale" american citizenship.

Because you are if you are angolsaxon american I am trully a martian!

No lies in here, say the truth and be honest.

To Joe:

You see Joe: This is exactly what I mean! When someone feels shame about his country, when he knows that his country has always been "nothing special" by all means then he does exactly what you do!

He says: "I am mighty american" while he is not. Well, you are a hungarian immigrant in the USA my friend. An immigrant that is even avoiding to say where he is from and he wants to feel "important and special" by claiming he is something he is not. By ignoring his real "hungarian" identity and present himself as "mighty american" from the "most developed country".

If I was in the USA I wouldn't say I am "mighty american" and hide my real roots, but I would say I am a "mighty" Greek. That is our difference with you. We don't need some other identity to feel proud, because ours is not "good enough". We already are proud with our real roots.

Pavlos,

Envy about Greece??? Are you real???? I am a citizen of the mightiest and one of the richest countries on earth, the USA. And I have no ethnic roots in the Balkans (important thing to point out to a Greek).
Do you know anything about the living standard in the US?

To Peter Sudyka:

Peter I think it is at least hypocrisy, to put the development of a nation - because of others only - and say you "were just developed because of others even before the EU". That is a lie, and shows animosity as well.

Well let me tell you about the Greek economy: Greece was the only country in Europe that exactly after the destruction of WW2, passed through an even more destructive and bloody civil war that lasted until 1950 and had more than 500.000 people dead and the country in ruins.

That means that the Hellenic state had been continuously at war for more than 10 years (1939-1950) and it started it's development 5 YEARS LATER than ANY country in Europe.

From 1950 to 1970 there was a huge economic development - bigger than any european country - and this happened mainly because of the measures that the Greek goverments took to attract foreign investments and MOSTLY because of the hard work of the Greek population.

No foreign goverment gave any money to Greece (like it happened with the EU funds), they were just giving LOANS, and investing in the country by their private companies. Nothing else.

That resulted from being a country TOTALLY DESTRUCTED in 1950 (which simply no other European country was at that time - both in the east and the west)to be a strong economy only in 20 years time.

Of course the foreign investmens took a major role in the economic development. But what is that mean, that the others built the economy? Foreigh investmens come, when a country has the laws, the people and the "will" to develop those investments and develop it's standard of living. And according to your logic, you could say the same about the German or the Japannese economies which builded themselves by american investmnets after WW2??

But of course that is not the case. Both the Germans and the Japaneese made their economies, as well as the Greeks mainly due to their effort.

You must have heard about the Greek economic miracle that was achieved between 1950 and 1970 that totally transformed a country from ruins to be a strong ecomony. This is something that did not happen by "others", and it did not also happen in other countries. So, stop being "provocative" by saying the others developed you, because simply every nation is the master of it's own fate... as the Greeks were and as you are and will be. We will be here to see, how you will go, and when you will be trully developed.

PS: Not many english are leaving in Greece right now, and certainly no... dutch! I have not seen one in my life ever! Of course they have their companies, as Greece is full of foreign investments in general.

Mr Peter,
I can almost completely agree with what you wrote, but it is still very sad that Ukraine, Poland, and Tchech Republic are going from one master to another. Have you noticed that if Kascinski or the Lithuaninan president who is famous only for hating Russia, were presiding EU and not Sarkozy, they would provoke the III World War? The old part of EU will seriously consider in the near future if the East European countries that love the club only when they need budget from Brussels and the rest of the day in Washington for getting lessons, are to be kept in EU. And by the way, Sarkozy who represented France got agreements from Germany, Italy and Spain, to help the secession of Ossezia and Abkhazia from Georgia.

Peter,

I think now you should be able understand the Albanian position. Serbs and Russians are one of the same mentality.

Greek,

same can be said about Greece. concessions were made when Greece was accepted into the EU. you are not as developed as other EU countries (and weren't at the onset).

Mike,

Russia is Ukraine's main national security threat. Nato membership will help them contain that threat, and there isn't much Russia can do about it.

To Peter Sudyka:

Peter, I don't disagree that Poland both geographically and culturally is a European country. Of course your country belongs to Europe in every matter.

What I wanted to say is that your country's behaviour so far has been a real bargain for Europe, and you were behaving like a rebel inside the EU and not like the country that needs EU (and the EU funds) more than anyone.

You have had this nationalistic president-prime minister duo (the one changed but still not the other), who were causing dozens of trouble for every matter inside the EU. And most of all, your country is the one directly responsible for causing troubles between Russia and the EU most of the times.

First block the EU fundings to Russia. Second, threat to block the EU-Russia agreement on free trade.
And now, you put the missile system in your ground (which is also an EU ground...), that are directly targeting the Russian missile systems. (Which is totally unacceptable, because the "non-attack" deal was depending on the NON-DEVELOPMENT of anti-missile systems which the USA decided to violate and develop this system).

You understand what I mean? So, I don't think that your country has the right to cause so much trouble to EU in the relations with Russia and create the tensions it creates - especially when the EU wants to develop the relationship with Russia.

Try to put your feeling against Russia outside the EU, and stop behaving like the "bully" of the EU when it has to do with Russia.

You country needs the EU badly, much more than the EU needs your country. Try to understand that - consider also your country's current REAL situation - and behave like a true EU state and not like a new-nationalistic democracy that wants to use the EU it badly needs, for "pay-back" animosity against Russia.

Let's live together as true European allies. Our problems with other countries should be sorted out by us, and not envolving the EU.

PS: Greece became a member of the EU in 1980 - not in 1982. And when it did, it had much higher Gdp than Portugal, Spain and even Ireland from day one, at that time. Without any EU funds.

> The Greek:

My opinion is that the EU should have never accepted countries in the EU, like Poland or the Baltic countries. They are poor, weak undeveloped and they two things you only care about is how you will get the EU money and harm Russia. Nothing else.

Dear Greek, my opinion is that the EU should have never accepted non-western countries like yours that have a totally different culture from ours (western), based on Eastern Christianity and basically the way of doing things.

You prefer to forget that apart from belonging to eastern civilisation your country got to the EU only through the back door, literally begging individual EC countries (9 at the time) to pledge support for you, and then collectively they were not able to reverse that pledge.

Don't forget that you were much much poorer at the time of your accession (1981) than the countries that entered the EU in 2004, and even now you are not that much richer. Slovenia is richer that you and Czech Republic is just behind you (for now). If any country got proper EU money it was yours and Spain. If we ever got that much money our countries would be doing much better than you do as we are much more efficient than Greece. Wake up, your important part in history finished 2000 years ago. Central Europe (and individual countries of CE) now plays much more important role than any country in Balkans or the Balkans altogether. We have the know-how, we have the western culture and the quality of our human resources & education.

My view is that the EU should reconsider the Greek membership in the Community as you give us more trouble than anything (e.g. supporting the anti-Western forces, typically Russia). Why don't you join (maybe with some other Balkan country as well) a union with Russia, that way you'd be culturally 'home' and at least everyone would have a reason to be happy, knowing where that stand...

Any country that thinks america will go to war with russia because of them needs to have another think, and a long one, and have its president phone saakashvili for first hand experience. hopefully that country will be reasonable enough to see the new reality, the bear is back, it's close to you, it's dangerous. But it will let you be if you dont poke it. if you poke it and it gets angry, neither the donkey nor the elephant will come to your rescue and there will be sorry mess that will be bad for everyone in europe and beyond. So, poland, ukraine, georgia, all of you, and i think there's dozens of you, just learn to live with this new reality and make rational moves. to us serbs the bear is a soft cuddly teddy. why do you think you cant achieve the same kind of relationship with russia?

"All Russia and Serbia want is to be respected."

Serbia tried getting "respect" by force: it lost all the republics and Kosovo, destroyed its economy and reputation in the world. And only Cuba supported Russia, bot even Serbia or Belarus.

Peter,

You are absolutely right with the importance and future prospects of Poland within the EU. Poland is already very important. It is the only country among the new members that the 4-5 big older members can not push around. We all know from what level Poland had to start due to WWII and 50 years of communism. But Poland will not only catch up but even bypass countries like Greece per GDP/capita because their citizens are hard-workers like all Central-Europeans.
Greece got to its current level mainly because the EU was pumping in billions and billions after the 1982 admission to lift it from a poor, underdeveloped state.
Four years ago the same EU could not afford the same largesse with the new members anymore.

"The only free nation in mind on this part of the continent are Serbs."

Yeah, you only had one master: Russia (and Turks before that.) Albanians fought the Turks more than you and the Greeks. Albanians even started the 'Greek' revolution.

p, what i'm saying is that it’s an extremely ill thought through move to offer americans to build missile shield on your soil. it’s a knee jerk reaction. by the americans. all they can do now is push irresponsible leaders of small dependencies into knee jerk reactions and use ridiculous russophobe rhetoric.
sure they will pat your subservient politicians on the back and some of them are even looking at lucrative futures in brussels monster administration, but the gist of this is that while russia is fully prepared to strike at poland if it feels threatened by something on polish territory, clearly not by poles themselves, the united states will NOT strike back at russia. this is the reality. they will sacrifice any number of georgias in order to avoid a world war when they are bogged down on two big fronts, or really, whenever. and the beauty of this is that russians know it. it will be good for all of us if the little countries on russian borders realize this and just plain restrain themselves from thoughtless provocation. don’t poke the bear, i beg of you.
as for turkey, your comparison is just simplistic. if poland was dominated by russia it was dominated by a culture superior to your own. we on the other hand were exposed to brutal hordes that were directly opposite to everything our medieval empire was and stood for. our nation for generations upon generations paid a huge price just to remain christian let alone anything else.

and yet i don’t feel any rancour that you seem to be feeling toward russians who surely made your country better, not worse, in many ways. when i look in the mirror, when i say my name, i know we won, my ancestors did a good job, i'm christian, i'm slavic, i'm fine. who cares about turkey? anyway if turkey were as big as russia and we were on turkish borders i wouldn’t be friends with them but i would not needlessly provoke them to please someone 20000 miles away who wont come to my rescue.

also if i may address this ludicrous attempt by some to belittle greece of all nations.. i'm very much against what they're doing in macedonia but that has nothing to do with the fact that greece is the heart of europe. its the home of europe. saying anything else is really, really silly.

The Greek

Of course I am not saying that living standards in Poland are higher than Greece, or anything like that, I know how economics work and I know that proportionately, Greece is still considerably stronger than Poland, but remember that the argument was why Poland was taken into the EU. Poland was taken into the EU because:

1) It is a European country geographically, socio-culturally and historically no less than any other country in the EU now.

2) It is a large country in terms of area and population, very rich in terms of natural resources and investment opportunity and has the potential of becoming a truly big power in the EU, comparable to Spain even.

Now I know that Greece is far ahead of us in terms of economic development, but also remember that Greece joined the EU in 1982, Poland joined in 2004, naturally Greece would have a great head-start over Poland. Also don't forget that our economy was almost annihilated by 50 years of communism, and that transition into a Western economy takes many, many years. Also another thing to remember is that small countries, like Slovenia, Czech Republic and Estonia are much easier to develop quickly than a giant country like Poland is, but in 20-30 years time, Poland will sit alongside Germany, the UK, France, Italy and Spain as one of the big EU players as a prosperous and rich country, something we could not possibly achieve under Russia.

Joe,

You are really flying high - especially due to the gift of cyberspace.

But you should be smart as most Americans are - taking napsacks with Canadian Flags to avoid big problems.

Take napsack with visible "American flag" on it and try to take the Long Journey Around the World.
I guess that you'll get hard landing in just couple of days - your trip will be cut short and better be prepared and armed with good Insurance Coverage.

p, i'm not a brick, thanks brother :), but i may easily be a pro-russian wall. this transformation :) happened to me when i saw the government in moscow do more for the preservation of my people and state than any government in belgrade in my lifetime and surely not this one ruling collusion. these are no small matters. i'm amazed in a way that every generation of serbs finds out the big truth. you think, nah, i'm pro western, i live this way, i work this way, i dress this way, and then the time comes when it hits you, no i'm not, those are my enemies pretending to be friends, while russia is not a friend but mother, like our parents and grandparents said but we thought, what a silly thing to say.
now as for you i dont know that russians forbade you to speak your language or exterminated you. i see you're there in good numbers in your home country and indeed abroad ;) speaking with those lovely consonant groups all packed together and i'm happy for you. surely though at least a spec of shame goes into someone who relativises the crimes of nazi germany, the worst shame to humanity in its history. if all it will take for you to drop the russophobia is for russia to give you money, for godsakes, russians, give poles some money already.

for your main argument, shield is defensive, and that. it may well be true. but it makes no difference. russia is now a power that interprets actions on its borders with its own mind. and might makes right as some clever git said the other day. i was talking about the perception of those who can strike you, their perception of actions encouraged by those who will not protect you. i wasn’t talking about what's fair and what not. justice and international law will not be there to protect you in the post kosovo world because its a new world where fundamental rules have changed, in fact disappeared, no matter how hard some argue trying to obscure it. this is why russia can support us serbs in Kosovo, keep chechnya, and at the same time recognize south ossetia and abkhazia. this is why bush can talk about georgia's territorial integrity with a straight face. it’s a free for all. and it isn’t russians who made it possible.
again, small nations on russian borders must work to cooperate with russia, not to provoke it. i stand by that as a rational practical and sane argument.

and again to entertaining greece bashers, obviously when i'm talking about greece i'm talking about european values such as democracy, science, arts, and just about any other achievement of the civilization we belong to one can think of. i'm not thinking of other 'values and achievements' from some other parts of europe such as racist supremacy, nazism, fascism, delusions of grandeur and the like. each unto his own.

Peter: They profess to respecting international law, but then break it by invading another country based on the premise that their rivals did it 10 years ago.

They had to invade Georgia for you to learn this? Russians and Serbians are one and the same, period.

On 17 August 2008 19:47, Peter Sudyka wrote:

"they (Germany) acknowledged that they did something wrong and apologized. The day Russia apologizes and acknowledges for anything will be the day people actually start trusting them."

Indeed. I have watched Brandt and Kohl apologize for what their predecessors, the Nazi government, did, but I must have missed the news where Gorbatjov, Jeltsin or Putin renounced the actions by the Soviet Union in the same way.

The Greek

"What I wanted to say is that your country's behaviour so far has been a real bargain for Europe, and you were behaving like a rebel inside the EU and not like the country that needs EU (and the EU funds) more than anyone. "

This is because we had two complexed, primitive little beings in chearge of our country. This has changed with Tusk as head of government and will change even more when he is president and Pawlak is PM.

"You have had this nationalistic president-prime minister duo (the one changed but still not the other), who were causing dozens of trouble for every matter inside the EU. "

Well, the fact that the PM's party lost the elections so badly that the new PM was able to form the new cabinet by himself with only ratification needed from the president, I think it shows you that Poland is tired of those Xeroxes and voted far more for Tusk. The other one is staying to the end of his term, but in the next presidential elections, he will lose power and Tusk will take over from him.

"First block the EU fundings to Russia. Second, threat to block the EU-Russia agreement on free trade.
And now, you put the missile system in your ground (which is also an EU ground...), that are directly targeting the Russian missile systems."

This was done because:

1) Russia put an embargo on our food products.
2) Russia upped our gas prices for no reason.
3) Russia planned to build a pipeline that specifically does not go through any ex-Eastern Bloc state West of them, only due to the offense it took because of us joining or wanting to join the EU and NATO.

"Try to put your feeling against Russia outside the EU, and stop behaving like the "bully" of the EU when it has to do with Russia. "

Just two days ago, this country threatened to target us (Poland) and also the Ukraine with nukes. I think it shows who is the real bully around here when it comes to the EU and Russia.

"You country needs the EU badly, much more than the EU needs your country."

It's a mutual relationship, why did the EU take Poland into its ranks if it did not need it? Poland is not a charity case to the EU, it is giving something back.

"Greece became a member of the EU in 1980 - not in 1982. And when it did, it had much higher Gdp than Portugal, Spain and even Ireland from day one, at that time. Without any EU funds."

You are only partly right here, Greece was already receiving massive investments from the rich EU states as early as the 50's. The EU has made Greece the country it is today, even before Greece became a member. Consider the amount of English, German and especially Dutch people that are living in Greece and the amount of Western companies there. All it took was for Greece's government to take a pro-Western stance.

Joe

As a Hungarian, you can also tell the Greeks and Serbs who have never been Soviet satellites about what I have been saying here. It really is not an attack on the Russian people or being some kind of American pet, it is, at most, an attack on the Russian authorities and their neo-Imperialism. I am sure if the Serbs or the Greeks felt what Hungary felt in 1956 where thousands were killed tens of thousands wounded, they would understand us more.

Mark (Shqype)

I totally understand your position, it's just the question of how it was handled that I may be criticial of sometimes.

The action of Russia against tiny but brave Georgia is becoming like a boomerang to Russia because now Russia is loosing its respect even in slavic countries/eastern countries who now are more than ever eager to join the western alliance because they fear Russia's bullying.
Serbia is lucky its not in border with Russia because otherwise it would be engulfed by Russian old tanks and by russian planes who were flown by old retired russian pilots because Russia has no new pilots to fly th planes.

Mirek,

You are 100% right. Greece supporting anti-Western forces, typically Russia does not belong neither in EU or NATO. The Greeks represent the sixth column for Russia and s/b excluded.

The last time i checked, Greece was in the EU. And the last time i checked, the EU was a democratic based union of nations. So, as Joe the patriot and know-it- all of the USA should admit, everyone can express their opinion in a democracy. Am i right? So for all of you hyporcites (because thats what you really are) that are agreeing with Greece being kicked out of the EU, please remember that in a democracy you are allowed to disagree and not get punished.

Joe, in the US, you are allowed to express your feelings about the actions that your goverment takes. And if people agree that their American foreign policy is wrong and Russia's is right, then they can say so without harm. Thats "freedom of speech", something that the USA is based upon.

And what you said about serbian americans not contributing is blatantly subjective and shows your bias. Your like Fox News, your forum posts are obviously not impartial.

The Greek

"You must have heard about the Greek economic miracle that was achieved between 1950 and 1970 that totally transformed a country from ruins to be a strong ecomony."

Don't forget that Greece was a part of the US Marshall Plan, so it already had a big headstart (as with the rest of Western alligned Europe), while we on the other side of the Iron Curtain were not blessed with that sort of money. Had we been blessed with being a part of the Marshall Plan and received the kind of investment you did, we would be on the same level as the rest of Europe, and you know it, I really don't get why you look down on us when you know we were not a fraction as privileged as you were.

"Both the Germans and the Japaneese made their economies, as well as the Greeks mainly due to their effort."

The Germans and Japanese were also a part of the Marshall Plan, and received massive investments too.

"So, stop being "provocative" by saying the others developed you, because simply every nation is the master of it's own fate... as the Greeks were and as you are and will be."

Hard when our attempts to be masters of our own destiny were annihilated by tanks, armored cars and armed police in Poznan 1956, Budapest 1956 and Prague 1968. Going back to the original point, we are now free and only now are our economies rising. Under Russian influence, we had no chance and this influence has still left its mark on our developmental levels.

I hope I have made my point clear to you that we fought for 50 years to free ourselves from destructive Russian domination and will do anything to ensure we or any other former Soviet state does not have to go through the same hell again.

Would you like Greece to go back to Turkish rule?

smile

"So, poland, ukraine, georgia, all of you, and i think there's dozens of you, just learn to live with this new reality and make rational moves."

How was the bombardment of Gori and threatening to fire nukes at Poland rational?

"to us serbs the bear is a soft cuddly teddy. why do you think you cant achieve the same kind of relationship with russia?"

Because that teddy bear has never invaded, occupied, suppressed, deported, enslaved and murdered the Serbs. They have done it to the Ukrainians, Poles, Georgians, Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians and still not acknowledged or apologized for any of it.

Why don't you go back to living together with Turkey?

> The Greek:

...for being "west" you need other things than just "a religion" or a geographical position. You need economy. You need culture.

You can only resort to offences in arguing with me & Peter Sudyka who clearly explained the position of Central Europeans and why we never ever can trust Russia (unless - as Peter said - it apologizes for the cruel crimes it has committed to us & other nations in Europe, then the process of 'building trust' can somehow commence).

Of course - you prefer to know none of that as you were enjoying all the support of the US & Europe while we were suffering the way you can never imagine. Not necessarily in material way - our people have always been very efficient so even during the Russian occupation we did manage to live in a decent way - despite the Russians abusing us day & night.

After 1989 our countries were liberated and the true potential of our people has been showing up since then.

Basically what is happening is, that country like Greece has been losing havily as Central Europe as well as your 'almost' neighbours like Slovenia & Croatia now stand much higher in importance in the West & for the West and you know it.

The time's up for artificial position of Greece when the country is not offering much else than beaches & ruins & bad infrastructure. For example Croatia offers much nicer sea & increasingly better infrastructure.

As for dreaming of the West - do you seriously thing that anyone in CEE has ever considered you - Greece - a rich & Western country??

By the way - did you know that Czechoslovakia was THE 10TH richest country in the world in 1930's?? Bet you didn't (so now the correction of your lack of knowledge...) Where was Greece then? A poor country on par with Albania or Turkey.

As for culture & what a country has achieved. Culture is - as those who know do know - is directly related to religion & values that prevail in a given country/society and any country's culture is firmly based on those values, even for people who don't even care about a church, let alone being religious etc. Everything that happens in a society is somehow related to its culture based on it's religion/set of values for centuries. As yours is Eastern Orthodox, you are officially an Eastern country with lifestyle & values close to Russia & the whole Orthodox world.

By the way: for your GDP data I have another that you will not like that much:

Czech Republic: $24,236 per head
Greece: $29,172 per head
Slovenia: $27,205 per head
Spain: $30,120 per head

So, Spain is still richer than Greece and Slovenia & Czech Republic are not far behind, so stop inventing dreams about your greatness:))

If you don't believe me, check the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

> Romanian: The Czech people hasn't achieved anytihng in all fields in their history. They have never had an empire like the Poles and Greeks, no famous Czechs.

Romanian - leaving aside your remark that Czech people never had an empire - is that a measure of success? Is the enslaving other nations a good thing to do you think? Isn't it better to be a developed, friendly & cultured nation that can boost so many personalities that most other nations can be only envy of ours - to name but a few:

Charles IV (Karel IV.), who also became the Holy Roman Emperor, thus turning Prague into the capital of the West for several centuries, founding Charles University (my Alma Matter) in 1348, first in CE & a top world university.

Writer Franz Kafka (born in Prague) wrote most of his works in Prague

Poet Jaroslav Seifert was awarded the Nobel Literature Prize.

Mikoláš Aleš was a painter, known for redesigning the Prague National Theatre.

Composers Bedøich Smetana and Antonín Dvoøák have also been praised and the latter continued his work in New York, USA

Film director Miloš Forman, known best for his movie, One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest is of Czech origin and started his career in the Czech Republic.

Václav Havel, who became the first president of the independent Czech Republic

* Tennis- Ivan Lendl, Martina Navrátilová
* Soccer- Karel Poborsky, Josef Masopust
* Hockey- Jaromír Jágr, Dominik Hašek
* Athletics - Emil Zátopek, Roman Šebrle

How can you seriously claim Czechs have never achieved anything in history?? What about Romanians or Greeks (at least in last millenium please, 2000 years ago is a long time ins't it?).


> The Czech people were very rich at the beginning of the 20th century (the 20s and 30s) because of the massive investment of the Austrians in their economy.

You got it wrong - Czechs were the richest part of the old Austria-Hungary Empire and the most industrialised. Nothing any Balkan has ever achieved - partly a reason why we are now - as always - doing much better than Eastern Eropean nations, Central Europe has always been more developed and continues to be...

I have to say I'm not surprised by your remarks Romanian - defending a country that belongs to the same your Eastern civilization. See - if a crunch time comes, you will all side with Russia against us - the West. That is why the EU & NATO should include only culturally & politically Western countries.

Mirek

I guess you can't explain that we had it hard under Russia if Greece has a religious bond and never had it bad under Russia.

smile

"p, what i'm saying is that it’s an extremely ill thought through move to offer americans to build missile shield on your soil."

These are not nuclear ICBMs, these are DEFENSIVE air defense missiles. Why is Russia so against a set of missiles that are used in DEFENSE and not offense? If it makes Russia feel better, why don't they build a missile shield on Cuba? Why do they insist on threatening Poland over an internal NATO matter that, in no way, can harm Russia?

"sure they will pat your subservient politicians on the back and some of them are even looking at lucrative futures in brussels monster administration, but the gist of this is that while russia is fully prepared to strike at poland if it feels threatened by something on polish territory, clearly not by poles themselves, the united states will NOT strike back at russia."

Threatened by what, I ask? If they feel threatened by a DEFENSIVE shield and are prepared to launch a nuke at it, how can we trust them?

BTW I think Xeroczynski is behaving like a typical complexed, little primitive when it comes to Russia, I definitely prefer the moderate approach of Donald Tusk and cannot wait for him to be voted out of power, but I don't think Russia should be taking this missile shield too harshly.

"our nation for generations upon generations paid a huge price just to remain christian let alone anything else. "

Well our nation for generations upon generations had to pay a huge price just to be able to use our own language, to write our own literature, to write our own poems just to remain Polish. Most of Belarus are just Russified Poles and Lithuanians, while eastern Ukraine is mostly Russified Ukrainians as well, thankfully we resisted that.

"and yet i don’t feel any rancour that you seem to be feeling toward russians who surely made your country better, not worse, in many ways. "

I am trying to think of one. Maybe you can help me to find one. At least the Germans who were equally bad to us in the past as Russia have at least given us money to build our infrastructure and have acknowledged and apologized to Poland for what they have done, and recompensated the Poles they used for slave labour in Germany during the war, not to mention normalizing relations with us. Of course you don't feel the rancour that others in Eastern Europe do because the Russians never tried to invade you, to assimilate you into their empire, to suppress our culture, language and heritage, to deport or murder those they considered threats (mostly intelligentsia, artists and other hamrless, innocent people), to deport large numbers of your population to be worked to death in the gulags, to massacre whole villages in pogroms or to ethnically cleanse your population from their age old lands to be given to someone else. I get the feeling that I am talking to a brick wall so I will stop.

Just because as a Serbian American you were born in the US it does not give you special rights. Most of the Serbian Americans - who highlight that they were born here - did only one thing on this site: dump on their native country the US and praising "democratic" Russia.
The big embarrassment for me is that there are some people, who are Americans only on paper.

to Mirek
The Czech people hasn't achieved anytihng in all fields in their history. They have never had an empire like the Poles and Greeks, no famous Czechs (or maybe one or two almost famous, nothing like Platon, Aristoteles, Socrates anyway, etc). The Czech people were very rich at the beginning of the 20th century (the 20s and 30s) because of the massive investment of the Austrians in their economy. By the way how do you say theater or museum in your beautiful consonantic language? I'm sure your language has more Greek origin words than Greek language does Czech words. Probably they only Czech word in Greek is robot (I don't speak Greek so I wouldn't know).

to Mirek
We can't fool us. The Austrian Empire has industrialized the Czech lands during the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries. That's why you were so rich. Anyway I see you are the one who is offending the Greeks and not the other way around. As I said before your countrymen haven't accomplished anything major during their whole history. As if that weren't enough a part of your nation has split from it becoming the Slovak nation, although in the past Slovak was merely a Czech dialect. Not to mention the language: so full and consonants and so beautiful.

For Peter:

I know Peter, if someone does not want to even consider your arguments and are using empty ones themselves then it's better to stop wasting your time...

> Romanian: We can't fool us. The Austrian Empire has industrialized the Czech lands during the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries. That's why you were so rich.

You prefer to omit one important fact - we, Czechs were part of the Austria-Hungary, one of the nations, so it is not 'they' equipped us - we developed our capabilities through our people and were supplying the whole Monarchy/Empire & beyond...just check a history book, then you'll see.

> Anyway I see you are the one who is offending the Greeks and not the other way around.

Really?? Am I? So then you don't understand what an offense is or isn't man...As far as I see it (and surely I'm not alone), The Greek with your diligent help is trying to look down on Central Europeans in general. Why?

Anyway, he is looking down on you as well, so can't understand why you support his lies. Your problem in the end, isn't it? At least you get the facts right for your own good, he simply does not want to...his loss.

> smile: also if i may address this ludicrous attempt by some to belittle greece of all nations.. the fact that greece is the heart of europe. its the home of europe. saying anything else is really, really silly.

Really?? Maybe the heart of Eastern Europe, that I would understand (maybe for Balkan nations anyway). But try to ask a Czech, German or French..do you think that ANY of them would say Greece is the heart of Europe? Don't be ridiculous...Antique period was great, but 2000 years later it has worn out a bit, don't you think? No Western or Central European (i.e. the real 'Europeans') would agree with you man.

All the Best to All Good People

The Greek,

I didn't realize how important it is for you the root of an American. While in the US we esteem our citizens by their contributions to our great country you see them through an old-fashioned Balkan angle.
Peter already responded for me partially and to the point.
As a Hungarian-American I can tell you that I am very proud of my roots and the contribution of the Hungarians to the country.

@alban

if Serbs are ruled by Russians and Turks, then that would mean that were ruled by two nations.

Furthermore, Serbs were ruled by Turks, Hungarians, and various other ethnicities, just like Albanians were.

OK, I apologize. You had a few famous people. As you probably know the Greeks had dozens of Byzantine emperors. Even Wallachia and Moldavia had dozens of Greek
princes in the 18th and early 19th centuries. I have heard about Smetana, Dvorak and Forman. I've even had a Smetana CD. Very beautiful music. I don't know any famous Greeks from the 20th century except Nikos Kazantzakis (I think he got the Nobel prize). You must admit though that the names you mentioned are not by far so important as the Greek playwrights, historians, philosophers of the antiquity.

On 18 August 2008 22:45, smile wrote:

"(...) just learn to live with this new reality and make rational moves."

Wow!! Did smile really encourage people to live and accept reality? Like the reality in Kosovo? Did pigs also learn to fly?
--

I would like to clarify some points to the commentators here who excel in hating Russia thus consuming their lives in hate speech. Russia has been an empire for centuries, and the recent 15 years of pause has been only an anomalia that is corrected now. When a country is an empire for such a long time, its elite is prepared to have long time policy and is not at all afraid of momentary petty problems. Russia not in the most subconsciuos dream has intention to have close to it NATO countries: which means that Poland, Tchech Republic, Estonia, Lithuania, Ukraina, and Georgia must come to senses to abid in peace by the strong master, in order to survive. The West will not help them. The West was interested in the little slave countries only to the point to understand if thorough them it could eventually conquer Russia: but the task has proven improbable. Best regards.

I lkie to see Russia try a stunt with big Ukrain like they did with tiny Georgia.
I have said it before, they(Ruskies) should pick someone their size.
Aside from nuclear weapons, even Poland can take on Russian military at any given time.

"All Russia and Serbia want is to be respected."

Serbia tried getting "respect" by force: it lost all the republics and Kosovo, destroyed its economy and reputation in the world. And only Cuba supported Russia, bot even Serbia or Belarus.

To Ahmet Isufi:

If there are people like yourself who want to throw the accusitions against Russia, they should be at least be better informed because they just expose themselves.

Russia militarily - by even not considering the nuclear weapons - is 100 times stronger in comparison to both Ukraine and Poland.

Ukraine has just an army personel of about 80.000 troops with about 200 last generation tanks (T-80), about 80 Su-27 airfighters and about 210 MiG-29. Considerably strong force, all taken as a "gift" by the Soviet Union.

Poland is much MUCH weaker having only 48 F-16 as last generation fighters.

Are you aware of the Russian forces?? They have about 400 last generation Su-27 aircrafts, about 50 even more sophisticated Su-35 and about 520 MiG 29's!!! That make's it more than 1000 last generation aircrafts! Their equipment in the ARMY is similar, with thousands of last generation Tanks and vehicles.

So don't claim things like "Ukraine and Poland could take over Russia". Inform yourself first...

To Peter Sudyka:

Peter all these countries and especially Poland with the Baltic countries, show an animosity against Russia that cannot be explained by ANY historical facts.

They just hate Russia, trying to harm them in any way they can, and the reason is not the "conquer or the countless wars"!

Germany during ww2, totally destroyed the polish country, killed millions and millions of Polish citizens, and made a total destruction to the polish state that was 10 times more intense than any russian! Why the polish don't have the same feelings for the Germans today, but only for Russians who did nothing compared to them???

The same is true about Ukraine and the Baltic countries (Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia). The Germans totally did destroyed them during the WW2 but nooone is talking about that today?? They remember only the Russian occupation, which did nothing to them!

That's why I tell you that there is nothing about disliking Russia, because of historical reasons. They just hate Russia and show animosity for no reason.

Europe and the EU should take that very seriously into cosnideration and just force those weak countries (that need EU money more than everything) NOT to involve EU and the west, to their animosity against Russia.

Ahmet,

The interesting thing is that the vast majority of the Ukraine's population (and even Poland's I believe) are totally against missile shields, joining the NATO pact etc.

Russia is against the ruling cliche of these "democracies" (not the people) and how they are letting themselves be used as pawns in America's empire games.

Bit like the K-Albanians... (the smallest pawn of all)

As I said, this is just a game for America and when they realize they can't "win" in Eastern Europe, they will go home, to cause trouble somewhere else.

Serbia, Russia etc are going no where, this is our neighbourhood, and you have to live with us (as we will live with you).

Wake up and come to terms with your real neighbours!

There is still time to negotiate a comprimise with Serbia.

commentator, italy and Nikola

I know you may be surprised by Ukraine's and Poland's stance towards Russia in recent years, but don't forget that Russia has never been involved in a war with Serbia and never tried to make it a part of their empire. Our experience with Russia is different.

Both Poland and the Ukraine have been subjected to:

1) Many invasions by Russia
2) Countless wars
3) Occupation
4) Assimilation of our lands into their empire
5) Destruction of our intelligentsia and others seen as a threat to their empire
6) Brutal Russification (mostly achieved through coercion)
7) Deportation
8) Restriction of freedom of speech and expression
9) Slave labor
10) Even flat out genocide (Holodomor and Katyn)

Now how do you think Poland and Ukraine should feel after witnessing how Russia treated Georgia in the recent war? Yesterday it was them, tomorrow it could be us. Russia would have no problem assimilating the Russian parts of Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and the Ukraine. They profess to respecting international law, but then break it by invading another country based on the premise that their rivals did it 10 years ago.

It just shows Russia cannot be trusted, though since Serbia has never had such problems with Russia, I can understand your stance, but you should try and understand ours.

"The only free nation in mind on this part of the continent are Serbs."

Yeah, you only had one master: Russia (and Turks before that.) Albanians fought the Turks more than you and the Greeks. Albanians even started the 'Greek' revolution.

The Greek

"What I wanted to say is that your country's behaviour so far has been a real bargain for Europe, and you were behaving like a rebel inside the EU and not like the country that needs EU (and the EU funds) more than anyone. "

This is because we had two complexed, primitive little beings in chearge of our country. This has changed with Tusk as head of government and will change even more when he is president and Pawlak is PM.

"You have had this nationalistic president-prime minister duo (the one changed but still not the other), who were causing dozens of trouble for every matter inside the EU. "

Well, the fact that the PM's party lost the elections so badly that the new PM was able to form the new cabinet by himself with only ratification needed from the president, I think it shows you that Poland is tired of those Xeroxes and voted far more for Tusk. The other one is staying to the end of his term, but in the next presidential elections, he will lose power and Tusk will take over from him.

"First block the EU fundings to Russia. Second, threat to block the EU-Russia agreement on free trade.
And now, you put the missile system in your ground (which is also an EU ground...), that are directly targeting the Russian missile systems."

This was done because:

1) Russia put an embargo on our food products.
2) Russia upped our gas prices for no reason.
3) Russia planned to build a pipeline that specifically does not go through any ex-Eastern Bloc state West of them, only due to the offense it took because of us joining or wanting to join the EU and NATO.

"Try to put your feeling against Russia outside the EU, and stop behaving like the "bully" of the EU when it has to do with Russia. "

Just two days ago, this country threatened to target us (Poland) and also the Ukraine with nukes. I think it shows who is the real bully around here when it comes to the EU and Russia.

"You country needs the EU badly, much more than the EU needs your country."

It's a mutual relationship, why did the EU take Poland into its ranks if it did not need it? Poland is not a charity case to the EU, it is giving something back.

"Greece became a member of the EU in 1980 - not in 1982. And when it did, it had much higher Gdp than Portugal, Spain and even Ireland from day one, at that time. Without any EU funds."

You are only partly right here, Greece was already receiving massive investments from the rich EU states as early as the 50's. The EU has made Greece the country it is today, even before Greece became a member. Consider the amount of English, German and especially Dutch people that are living in Greece and the amount of Western companies there. All it took was for Greece's government to take a pro-Western stance.

Joe

As a Hungarian, you can also tell the Greeks and Serbs who have never been Soviet satellites about what I have been saying here. It really is not an attack on the Russian people or being some kind of American pet, it is, at most, an attack on the Russian authorities and their neo-Imperialism. I am sure if the Serbs or the Greeks felt what Hungary felt in 1956 where thousands were killed tens of thousands wounded, they would understand us more.

Mark (Shqype)

I totally understand your position, it's just the question of how it was handled that I may be criticial of sometimes.

"I have said it before, they(Ruskies) should pick someone their size.
(Ahmet Isufi, 17 August 2008 11:19) "

The same can be said for Nato back in 1999.

As for Ukraine, it would be wise for her to see what's unfolding in Georgia now. Sure, the US and EU have made a lot of noise .... and little else.

To paraphrase Ahmet Isufi in irony, the West dares not pick on someone near their own size. Georgia's president is finding this out belatedly to his chagrin.

The whole eastern Europe is full of little slave countries: yesterday they obeyed to Russians, today they serve Americans. They day before yesterday they served Austro-Hungarians or Turks.
The only free nation in mind on this part of the continent are Serbs. That is why they are allies of Russia, and will be of America very soon too. It is Serbia that is most respectable country between Paris and Moscow.

The government of Ukraine has gone insane! Russia right now about to snap. Ukraine is pretty much asking Russia to annex its territory. First, they invade Georgia and win. Then they see the most the United States says is "This will sever Russian-American relations".. yeah big deal.

Now Poland has signed the deal for the anti missle defence system.. and now this Ukranian business.

If this along with the Polish agreement goes through.. Russia will very well annex Ukraine, Abkazia, South Ossetia, Belarus (rather peacefully) and will point missles all around Poland.

Hell, if Russia really wanted to.. they could pull all oil exports to Germany, France and other countries who recognized Kosovo to revoke their positions. It would anger Washington but it would bring the western and eastern parts of Europe more to a common ground.. even if it is through a hasty way.


Russia is Serbia's true friend. I support Serbia joining the EU.. but so does Russia. Serbia needs to be the closest with Russia while at the same time in the EU!

Commentator I 100% agree with you.

All Russia and Serbia want is to be respected. Serbia might now be able to earn that respect right away.. but Russia will demand it and will get it with interest.

Neither Russians nor Serbians want a bad relationship with the Western Europeans. We are all from Europe and we should be on a good relationship. Western Europe takes to much orders from Washington.. and the USA just keeps giving them out without realizing or caring that it is Western Europe who will deal with the results of those actions. Washington doesn't care if Kosovo, Anti missle sheilds, support of Georgia angers Russia because they will never feel the Russian anger.. it is the western Europeans who will.


I'm not saying for the west to just change everything it believes in.. but they need to find a common ground for the good of Europe.. because Serbs and Russians see themselvs as European and do not want hostility with its real neighbours.

Peter: They profess to respecting international law, but then break it by invading another country based on the premise that their rivals did it 10 years ago.

They had to invade Georgia for you to learn this? Russians and Serbians are one and the same, period.

The Greek

I think you need to read more on the history of Poland, the Baltics and the Ukraine with regards to Russia before you say that we "hate" Russians for no reason at all. Read as from the 1600's. I could say that the Greeks hate the Turks for no reason at all, when the Germans treated them so much worse in the war as well.

The Germans did horrible things, yes, but they accepted the borders they were given, they paid reparations/worked to fix what they did to those whom they enslaved in the war and they are the biggest investor into Poland and the Baltics today. Without them, our infrastructure would look like Russia. They pumped billions of Euro into our economies, they pumped billions of Lenin. Most importantly, they acknowledged that they did something wrong and apologized. The day Russia apologizes and acknowledges for anything will be the day people actually start trusting them. I don't get why you defend them so much, is it the Orthodox Christian bond?

To Peter Sudyka::

So, you say that the reason that your goverment decided to put missiles on your ground against Russia is just because they haven't "apologised" for what they did in 1600???

This what you tell me? Because, really I cannot find any other possible explanation for Poland allowing missiles into their ground that are directly targeting Russia.

If you know the reason, please tell us, as well as why only your Poland has decided to put this missiles together with Chech Republic, and no other country. I would really like to hear an explanation for that...

We have problems with Turkey today - not because of history - , but because almost every single day their fighter aircrafts are violating our air space into the Aegean sea and threat our sovereigty in the islands that thousands of Greeks are living. We are actually almost in a war situation - having our aircrafts figthing with theirs, over the aegean sea almost every day. This "relationship" has no similarities with the one you have with Russia today. It's very different...

I know that Germany is investing great amounts to your economy.. so that's why you love them so much? It seems that money can help - so the millions of polish that died into the concetration camps, and the total destruction can be forgotten easily...

The Germans might be investing huge amounts of money but the infrastructure of Poland is still 30 years behind, and trully I don't believe is better than Russia. I have visited both the two countries recently and I tell you that your infrastructure is much worse.... and has nothing to do with the one of a european state. Poland is still 20 years behind in everything.

My opinion is that the EU should have never accepted countries in the EU, like Poland or the Baltic countries. They are poor, weak undeveloped and they two things you only care about is how you will get the EU money and harm Russia. Nothing else.

Peter

Poland,Georgia,Ukraine and the baltic states are putting
into practice the US foreign policy dogma which can be read in the key"do as we say,
not as we do".
It is well known that the US-
under false pretences ie rogue states Iran,North Korea
-is trying to encircle Russia.The Poles,after endless prevarication,have signed on to the missile deal
which places them squarely in
Russia's fire line.
If a crisis arose in the near
future Poland shouldn't expect the US to send any troops into its territorry any more than it could send troops to Georgia or Iran.
The US is relatively weaker now than it was 20 years ago.
The country owes trillions of
dollars to China ,Japan and other Asian countries.History
repeats itself in the sense that great powers are brought
down not by military defeats but by debt and economic failure.
Russia's newly found confidence is mainly derived
from its vast mineral resources which in itself are
a big geopolitical factor.Furthermore,its current great-power behaviour
is fuelled by resentment and a desire for payback,after the humiliation of theYeltsin
era.
My point Peter is that Poland
and the rest of former soviet
states should stop playing the games devised by the neocons in Washington DC and
instead concentrate to better
the lives of their citizens.

The Greek

"So, you say that the reason that your goverment decided to put missiles on your ground against Russia is just because they haven't "apologised" for what they did in 1600??? "

Did you even bother to read what I put in my first post? Russia has and still is not giving us a single reason in the world to trust them. Even the last time we fought in a war against them, we lost hundreds of square kilometers of historically Polish land, 1.7 million people deported to slave labor camps (of which only a small number ever actually survived), raped thousands of our women and massacred over 20 000 people in the forests of Katyn. After that, we became a satellite of theirs where our economy was destroyed and where peaceful protests were put down by tanks. I don't know why the hell I am explaining this to a Greek, who never lived under Soviet rule. You never had to stand for hours in queues for rations, nor did you ever have nothing in the shops. If it weren't for you being a part of the West, Greece would be no different than Armenia.

BTW I hate America's foreign policy, but they have never done what the Russians did when it comes to us.

"Because, really I cannot find any other possible explanation for Poland allowing missiles into their ground that are directly targeting Russia. "

Go and read a history book. If Greece were a Soviet satellite, you would understand what I am talking about, otherwise I see that I am wasting my time explaining this to someone who does not want to understand because of some religious bond.

Also, how are INTERCEPTOR missiles directly targeting anybody if they are designed to DEFEND from nuke missiles?

"This "relationship" has no similarities with the one you have with Russia today. It's very different... "

Aha, so the genocide of the Pontic Greeks and 500 years of brutal Ottoman rule have nothing to do with the tensions in the Aegean Sea? I have been to both Rhodes and Crete, believe me, I know what the Greeks hate the Turks for.

"I know that Germany is investing great amounts to your economy.. so that's why you love them so much?"

No, we don't love them, we will never forget what they did to us, but this does not harm our present day relations as both sides are willing acknowledge the bad things we have done to each other and just move on. The Russians, on the other hand, are too stubborn and proud to admit.

"I have visited both the two countries recently and I tell you that your infrastructure is much worse"

Haha, now I know you have no idea what you are talking about! I have regularly been to Kaliningrad in my youth, and have visited Moscow too. Indeed Moscow is an impressive city, but the Kaliningrad Oblast is worse than even the poorest Ukrainian and Belarussian parts of south-eastern Poland, some villages have not changed since the 1900's. I doubt that any parts of Siberia, Southern Russia and Russia's Far East are any better. I don't know where you have been in Poland, but cities like Poznan, Warsaw, Krakow, Wroclaw and Gdansk are as European as can possibly be, not that much behind, just maintained less, but still years ahead of Russia and other CIS states.

BTW You think Greece would be like it is today if it weren't for the US/EU? Greece would look like the Balkans or the Caucasus if it wasn't for those terrible Germans.

"My opinion is that the EU should have never accepted countries in the EU, like Poland or the Baltic countries. They are poor, weak undeveloped and they two things you only care about is how you will get the EU money and harm Russia. Nothing else."

International Monetary Fund (2007) in millions of dollars

21 Poland 620,868
32 Greece 324,616

We are already twice as big as you are economically, and with our growth rate of 7% compared to yours of 3.4%, give us a few more years and our economy will be 4-5 times bigger than yours. We got in because we have potential, what some Greek thinks does not matter.

BTW You think if it wasn't to the foreign investments of the Dutch, Germans and the English that Greece would look remotely like Europe today?

Leonidas

And Russia should stop treating the countries that once were under their sphere of influence as their own 20 years after the Eastern Bloc fell. Given the chance, they will not hesitate to recognize and occupy South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transdniestr and Crimea, not to mention all the Russian speaking areas of their ex-Empire. Don't believe their international law lies, they have shown their morals with how the handled Georgia.

To Peter Sudyka:

Hey Peter! Don't present false economic data about your economy in here, and please don't twist simple things!

Yes, you are very right that your economy IN TOTAL has the amount you said but the economic level of every country is based on the Gdp PER CAPITA and NOT in total!!!

That means how much money each citizen has and not in total. That means that the 620 billion is DIVIDED by your population (38 million)while our 361 is also divided by our population (11 million).

So see the official data by the IMF for this year for two countries are:

Greece: 32,421$ PER CAPITA
Poland: 16,600$ PER CAPITA

That means that your economy is HALF ours! Or in other words the average Greek salary is double yours! This is how economy of every country is measured!

As I said, Poland has a WEAK and undeveloped economy, it is one of the POOREST countries in the EU, with a GDP PER CAPITA less than the EU average, and I prove it you by giving you the official data by the IMF.

So don't say things like you have a "good prospect" and you have "620 billion in total"!

Your country is still 20 years behind my country and either you like it or not it has one of the weakest economies in the EU. Probaly in 20 years Poland will be like Greece today - or even better if you have that growth. But you have to wait for that..... and don't present false data in here. We all know how the economy is measured in every country.

To Mountie:

Right now Greece has a higer Gdp PER CAPITA than Spain, and sligtly lower than Italy.

Official data by the IMF for 2008:

Italy Gdp PER CAPITA: 35,386$
Greece Gdp PER CAPITA: 32,421$
Spain Gdp PER CAPITA: 31,471$

I think that tells you exactly in which level the Greek economy is today...

Of course there are a lot of richer countries... but mostly.. there are much MUCH poorer. Even inside the EU (see Poland above for example..).

Peter,

I trully admire your patience with the 2 Greeks, who do not rely on historical or current facts in their comments. On one side they wanted to upset you with their polemic. On the other side they just showd that their religious bond with the Russians override everything bad the Russians ever committed. It is trully a shame that they did not have "the privilege" to be a Russian satellite. They would have been able to compare it with Turkey's long occupation.
It is a well-known fact that if not those substantial billions of EU aid Greece would be not much better off today than Albania, Armenia, etc. In the NATO they are a completely unreliable partner. If in theory (I can not imagine it in reality)there would be one day a confrontation between NATO and Russia I am sure they would side with Russia. Thank God Turkey is there and would take care of them.

To Joe:

My friend, so much hate and envy about Greece... you must really hate them!

Greece was never like Albania or Armenia and of course it will never be.

You pray to God that the Turks will "take care" of Greece??
Well, you better pray to God that you will be like Greece one day.... which I don't think so.

""Both Poland and the Ukraine have been subjected to:

1) Many invasions by Russia
2) Countless wars
3) Occupation
4) Assimilation of our lands into their empire
5) Destruction of our intelligentsia and others seen as a threat to their empire
6) Brutal Russification (mostly achieved through coercion)
7) Deportation
8) Restriction of freedom of speech and expression
9) Slave labor
10) Even flat out genocide (Holodomor and Katyn) ""

WOW Peter Sudyka! The Albanians have been through the same thing with the Serbs, Kosovar Albanians included. Now you understand why we don't trust them and why independence is necessary for Kosovars!

The Greek

Of course I am not saying that living standards in Poland are higher than Greece, or anything like that, I know how economics work and I know that proportionately, Greece is still considerably stronger than Poland, but remember that the argument was why Poland was taken into the EU. Poland was taken into the EU because:

1) It is a European country geographically, socio-culturally and historically no less than any other country in the EU now.

2) It is a large country in terms of area and population, very rich in terms of natural resources and investment opportunity and has the potential of becoming a truly big power in the EU, comparable to Spain even.

Now I know that Greece is far ahead of us in terms of economic development, but also remember that Greece joined the EU in 1982, Poland joined in 2004, naturally Greece would have a great head-start over Poland. Also don't forget that our economy was almost annihilated by 50 years of communism, and that transition into a Western economy takes many, many years. Also another thing to remember is that small countries, like Slovenia, Czech Republic and Estonia are much easier to develop quickly than a giant country like Poland is, but in 20-30 years time, Poland will sit alongside Germany, the UK, France, Italy and Spain as one of the big EU players as a prosperous and rich country, something we could not possibly achieve under Russia.

On 17 August 2008 19:47, Peter Sudyka wrote:

"they (Germany) acknowledged that they did something wrong and apologized. The day Russia apologizes and acknowledges for anything will be the day people actually start trusting them."

Indeed. I have watched Brandt and Kohl apologize for what their predecessors, the Nazi government, did, but I must have missed the news where Gorbatjov, Jeltsin or Putin renounced the actions by the Soviet Union in the same way.

Pavlos,

Envy about Greece??? Are you real???? I am a citizen of the mightiest and one of the richest countries on earth, the USA. And I have no ethnic roots in the Balkans (important thing to point out to a Greek).
Do you know anything about the living standard in the US?

To Peter Sudyka:

Peter, I don't disagree that Poland both geographically and culturally is a European country. Of course your country belongs to Europe in every matter.

What I wanted to say is that your country's behaviour so far has been a real bargain for Europe, and you were behaving like a rebel inside the EU and not like the country that needs EU (and the EU funds) more than anyone.

You have had this nationalistic president-prime minister duo (the one changed but still not the other), who were causing dozens of trouble for every matter inside the EU. And most of all, your country is the one directly responsible for causing troubles between Russia and the EU most of the times.

First block the EU fundings to Russia. Second, threat to block the EU-Russia agreement on free trade.
And now, you put the missile system in your ground (which is also an EU ground...), that are directly targeting the Russian missile systems. (Which is totally unacceptable, because the "non-attack" deal was depending on the NON-DEVELOPMENT of anti-missile systems which the USA decided to violate and develop this system).

You understand what I mean? So, I don't think that your country has the right to cause so much trouble to EU in the relations with Russia and create the tensions it creates - especially when the EU wants to develop the relationship with Russia.

Try to put your feeling against Russia outside the EU, and stop behaving like the "bully" of the EU when it has to do with Russia.

You country needs the EU badly, much more than the EU needs your country. Try to understand that - consider also your country's current REAL situation - and behave like a true EU state and not like a new-nationalistic democracy that wants to use the EU it badly needs, for "pay-back" animosity against Russia.

Let's live together as true European allies. Our problems with other countries should be sorted out by us, and not envolving the EU.

PS: Greece became a member of the EU in 1980 - not in 1982. And when it did, it had much higher Gdp than Portugal, Spain and even Ireland from day one, at that time. Without any EU funds.

Peter,

You are absolutely right with the importance and future prospects of Poland within the EU. Poland is already very important. It is the only country among the new members that the 4-5 big older members can not push around. We all know from what level Poland had to start due to WWII and 50 years of communism. But Poland will not only catch up but even bypass countries like Greece per GDP/capita because their citizens are hard-workers like all Central-Europeans.
Greece got to its current level mainly because the EU was pumping in billions and billions after the 1982 admission to lift it from a poor, underdeveloped state.
Four years ago the same EU could not afford the same largesse with the new members anymore.

To Joe:

Man, you are a citizen of the "mightiest country" in the world - US that is - but you still avoid to tell us from which country you really are from??

Why do you do so, are you so ashamed for your origins?

What can I say... for people who even avoid to say their true roots and pretend that they are "mighty americans", I have no comment.

Tell us really where you are coming from, where your origins are really from and stop the "fairy tale" american citizenship.

Because you are if you are angolsaxon american I am trully a martian!

No lies in here, say the truth and be honest.

Joe,

You seem to be losing control here.

Your arrogant comments, constantly bragging about the superiority of the USA, are offensive, embarrassing and offer nothing to global understanding.
Your high and mighty attitude only promotes discord among nations and promotes ill feelings toward the people of the United States.

I, unlike you, was born and raised in the United States and as a US citizen I find your arrogant comments to be an embarrassment.

I suggest you get off your high horse, Joe, leave your gated community and stop acting as if you’re better than everyone else.

To Peter Sudyka:

Peter I think it is at least hypocrisy, to put the development of a nation - because of others only - and say you "were just developed because of others even before the EU". That is a lie, and shows animosity as well.

Well let me tell you about the Greek economy: Greece was the only country in Europe that exactly after the destruction of WW2, passed through an even more destructive and bloody civil war that lasted until 1950 and had more than 500.000 people dead and the country in ruins.

That means that the Hellenic state had been continuously at war for more than 10 years (1939-1950) and it started it's development 5 YEARS LATER than ANY country in Europe.

From 1950 to 1970 there was a huge economic development - bigger than any european country - and this happened mainly because of the measures that the Greek goverments took to attract foreign investments and MOSTLY because of the hard work of the Greek population.

No foreign goverment gave any money to Greece (like it happened with the EU funds), they were just giving LOANS, and investing in the country by their private companies. Nothing else.

That resulted from being a country TOTALLY DESTRUCTED in 1950 (which simply no other European country was at that time - both in the east and the west)to be a strong economy only in 20 years time.

Of course the foreign investmens took a major role in the economic development. But what is that mean, that the others built the economy? Foreigh investmens come, when a country has the laws, the people and the "will" to develop those investments and develop it's standard of living. And according to your logic, you could say the same about the German or the Japannese economies which builded themselves by american investmnets after WW2??

But of course that is not the case. Both the Germans and the Japaneese made their economies, as well as the Greeks mainly due to their effort.

You must have heard about the Greek economic miracle that was achieved between 1950 and 1970 that totally transformed a country from ruins to be a strong ecomony. This is something that did not happen by "others", and it did not also happen in other countries. So, stop being "provocative" by saying the others developed you, because simply every nation is the master of it's own fate... as the Greeks were and as you are and will be. We will be here to see, how you will go, and when you will be trully developed.

PS: Not many english are leaving in Greece right now, and certainly no... dutch! I have not seen one in my life ever! Of course they have their companies, as Greece is full of foreign investments in general.

> The Greek:

My opinion is that the EU should have never accepted countries in the EU, like Poland or the Baltic countries. They are poor, weak undeveloped and they two things you only care about is how you will get the EU money and harm Russia. Nothing else.

Dear Greek, my opinion is that the EU should have never accepted non-western countries like yours that have a totally different culture from ours (western), based on Eastern Christianity and basically the way of doing things.

You prefer to forget that apart from belonging to eastern civilisation your country got to the EU only through the back door, literally begging individual EC countries (9 at the time) to pledge support for you, and then collectively they were not able to reverse that pledge.

Don't forget that you were much much poorer at the time of your accession (1981) than the countries that entered the EU in 2004, and even now you are not that much richer. Slovenia is richer that you and Czech Republic is just behind you (for now). If any country got proper EU money it was yours and Spain. If we ever got that much money our countries would be doing much better than you do as we are much more efficient than Greece. Wake up, your important part in history finished 2000 years ago. Central Europe (and individual countries of CE) now plays much more important role than any country in Balkans or the Balkans altogether. We have the know-how, we have the western culture and the quality of our human resources & education.

My view is that the EU should reconsider the Greek membership in the Community as you give us more trouble than anything (e.g. supporting the anti-Western forces, typically Russia). Why don't you join (maybe with some other Balkan country as well) a union with Russia, that way you'd be culturally 'home' and at least everyone would have a reason to be happy, knowing where that stand...

Mirek,

I don't see the end to your bullying - more and more outside the topic. Relax a bit and focus more on real problem(s) - not personal offenses.
You moved to "WEST" and forgot: that's NOT only material values that counts...enjoy the heritage, love, pride, peace, dignity - etc.

Peter,

I can understand you a bit, but some countries should take a hit to stop US bullying as self-proclaimed only super power in current World.
Otherwise you can see consequences - Iraq, Kosovo, Afganistan and who know who is next on the menu.
But Mirek buys it - all plastic -french fries and burgers - drive-through thinking.

I would like to clarify some points to the commentators here who excel in hating Russia thus consuming their lives in hate speech. Russia has been an empire for centuries, and the recent 15 years of pause has been only an anomalia that is corrected now. When a country is an empire for such a long time, its elite is prepared to have long time policy and is not at all afraid of momentary petty problems. Russia not in the most subconsciuos dream has intention to have close to it NATO countries: which means that Poland, Tchech Republic, Estonia, Lithuania, Ukraina, and Georgia must come to senses to abid in peace by the strong master, in order to survive. The West will not help them. The West was interested in the little slave countries only to the point to understand if thorough them it could eventually conquer Russia: but the task has proven improbable. Best regards.

Mr Peter,
I can almost completely agree with what you wrote, but it is still very sad that Ukraine, Poland, and Tchech Republic are going from one master to another. Have you noticed that if Kascinski or the Lithuaninan president who is famous only for hating Russia, were presiding EU and not Sarkozy, they would provoke the III World War? The old part of EU will seriously consider in the near future if the East European countries that love the club only when they need budget from Brussels and the rest of the day in Washington for getting lessons, are to be kept in EU. And by the way, Sarkozy who represented France got agreements from Germany, Italy and Spain, to help the secession of Ossezia and Abkhazia from Georgia.

As an independent and sovereign country, Ukraine has every right making the decisions it does. But I would seriously recommenend against taking such definitive strides towards the West when Russia is their biggest neighbor.

Ethnic Russians make up anywhere from 25% - 35% of Ukraine's population, and form absolute majorities in almost all areas east of Kiev. Moreover, they look to Moscow and not Kiev for support.

Not only in demographics, but also in economics does Russia still prove to be a major influence, as it forms one of Ukraine's largest, if not the largest, trading partner.

Ukraine would be wise to tread lightly and carefully in further embracing the West, otherwise it does risk a Russian response. While we may not see a military response, Moscow can simply shut the gas off.

Therefore, if the West wants to cultivate political development and further democratization in Ukraine, they need to definitively state that NATO membership is off the table. That's enough to please Russia. Besides, last I checked, a majority of Ukrainians, regardless of ethnic and linguistic indentity, are opposed to NATO membership.

It's one thing to not find oneself appeasing Russia. It's quite another thing to find oneself deliberately angering it.

Peter,

I think now you should be able understand the Albanian position. Serbs and Russians are one of the same mentality.

Greek,

same can be said about Greece. concessions were made when Greece was accepted into the EU. you are not as developed as other EU countries (and weren't at the onset).

Mike,

Russia is Ukraine's main national security threat. Nato membership will help them contain that threat, and there isn't much Russia can do about it.

The Greek,

I didn't realize how important it is for you the root of an American. While in the US we esteem our citizens by their contributions to our great country you see them through an old-fashioned Balkan angle.
Peter already responded for me partially and to the point.
As a Hungarian-American I can tell you that I am very proud of my roots and the contribution of the Hungarians to the country.

Joe,

You are really flying high - especially due to the gift of cyberspace.

But you should be smart as most Americans are - taking napsacks with Canadian Flags to avoid big problems.

Take napsack with visible "American flag" on it and try to take the Long Journey Around the World.
I guess that you'll get hard landing in just couple of days - your trip will be cut short and better be prepared and armed with good Insurance Coverage.

The action of Russia against tiny but brave Georgia is becoming like a boomerang to Russia because now Russia is loosing its respect even in slavic countries/eastern countries who now are more than ever eager to join the western alliance because they fear Russia's bullying.
Serbia is lucky its not in border with Russia because otherwise it would be engulfed by Russian old tanks and by russian planes who were flown by old retired russian pilots because Russia has no new pilots to fly th planes.

To Mirek London/Prague:

I was waiting when you will appear my friend saying the usual lies against Greece as you usually do: Let's take them one by one:

1) ""your country got to the EU only through the back door, literally begging individual EC countries (9 at the time) to pledge support for you,""

Lie! You have said that again, and I again told you that noone was begging any country. The decision was mainly French , and at that time my country had MUCH better economy than Chech Republic or other "eastern countries" (like yours I mean) today.

2) "now you are not that much richer. Slovenia is richer that you and Czech Republic is just behind you (for now)"

Total Lie!! Right now both Slovenia and even more the undeveloped Czech Republic is much MUCH behind the Greek economy.

Official data by the IMF for 2008:

Greece GDP per Capita:32,421$
Slovenia GDP per Capita:22,079
Czech GDP per Capita:17,070$

You have been liying again in other messages of yours about your economy and the Greek economy- giving "wishes" about how your economy would like it to be and how it trully is.

You see the difference now?? Your trully eastern country will be like mine probably in 15 years time.

I know that you have a great desire to "feel west" as you present this opinion in every message. That's why you depend your "westernism" only in religious matters and geographical position, simply because these two things are the only one that makes you "west" and nothing else. You never achieved anything else as a country.

And the only way to feel "west" is your religion and your geographical position, simply because there is nothing else really "west" on your country... nothing.

That's why you feel that envy about Greece. You forget about the culture. You forget about the situation of the economy now and in the past. You just say " I am west because I am christian catholic and my country is in the center of Europe, while your is christian orthodox and in the Balkans". What has your country ever accomplished really??? In economy any "western" look like? In culture any "western" thing that your country has offered. Nothing...

You can have that "thirst" about being "west" but your country has been East officially for the last 60 years... and by cosidering the current situation in Economy, where your country is still one of the most undeveloped in Europe, it is still "east".

Well, sorry to tell you but for being "west" you need other things than just "a religion" or a geographical position. You need economy. You need culture.

Keep trying being "West" Mirek. You are in a good path. In 20 years you will reach that level probanly...

To Joe:

You see Joe: This is exactly what I mean! When someone feels shame about his country, when he knows that his country has always been "nothing special" by all means then he does exactly what you do!

He says: "I am mighty american" while he is not. Well, you are a hungarian immigrant in the USA my friend. An immigrant that is even avoiding to say where he is from and he wants to feel "important and special" by claiming he is something he is not. By ignoring his real "hungarian" identity and present himself as "mighty american" from the "most developed country".

If I was in the USA I wouldn't say I am "mighty american" and hide my real roots, but I would say I am a "mighty" Greek. That is our difference with you. We don't need some other identity to feel proud, because ours is not "good enough". We already are proud with our real roots.

Just because as a Serbian American you were born in the US it does not give you special rights. Most of the Serbian Americans - who highlight that they were born here - did only one thing on this site: dump on their native country the US and praising "democratic" Russia.
The big embarrassment for me is that there are some people, who are Americans only on paper.

Mirek,

You are 100% right. Greece supporting anti-Western forces, typically Russia does not belong neither in EU or NATO. The Greeks represent the sixth column for Russia and s/b excluded.

Any country that thinks america will go to war with russia because of them needs to have another think, and a long one, and have its president phone saakashvili for first hand experience. hopefully that country will be reasonable enough to see the new reality, the bear is back, it's close to you, it's dangerous. But it will let you be if you dont poke it. if you poke it and it gets angry, neither the donkey nor the elephant will come to your rescue and there will be sorry mess that will be bad for everyone in europe and beyond. So, poland, ukraine, georgia, all of you, and i think there's dozens of you, just learn to live with this new reality and make rational moves. to us serbs the bear is a soft cuddly teddy. why do you think you cant achieve the same kind of relationship with russia?

to Mirek
The Czech people hasn't achieved anytihng in all fields in their history. They have never had an empire like the Poles and Greeks, no famous Czechs (or maybe one or two almost famous, nothing like Platon, Aristoteles, Socrates anyway, etc). The Czech people were very rich at the beginning of the 20th century (the 20s and 30s) because of the massive investment of the Austrians in their economy. By the way how do you say theater or museum in your beautiful consonantic language? I'm sure your language has more Greek origin words than Greek language does Czech words. Probably they only Czech word in Greek is robot (I don't speak Greek so I wouldn't know).

The last time i checked, Greece was in the EU. And the last time i checked, the EU was a democratic based union of nations. So, as Joe the patriot and know-it- all of the USA should admit, everyone can express their opinion in a democracy. Am i right? So for all of you hyporcites (because thats what you really are) that are agreeing with Greece being kicked out of the EU, please remember that in a democracy you are allowed to disagree and not get punished.

Joe, in the US, you are allowed to express your feelings about the actions that your goverment takes. And if people agree that their American foreign policy is wrong and Russia's is right, then they can say so without harm. Thats "freedom of speech", something that the USA is based upon.

And what you said about serbian americans not contributing is blatantly subjective and shows your bias. Your like Fox News, your forum posts are obviously not impartial.

@alban

if Serbs are ruled by Russians and Turks, then that would mean that were ruled by two nations.

Furthermore, Serbs were ruled by Turks, Hungarians, and various other ethnicities, just like Albanians were.

The Greek

"You must have heard about the Greek economic miracle that was achieved between 1950 and 1970 that totally transformed a country from ruins to be a strong ecomony."

Don't forget that Greece was a part of the US Marshall Plan, so it already had a big headstart (as with the rest of Western alligned Europe), while we on the other side of the Iron Curtain were not blessed with that sort of money. Had we been blessed with being a part of the Marshall Plan and received the kind of investment you did, we would be on the same level as the rest of Europe, and you know it, I really don't get why you look down on us when you know we were not a fraction as privileged as you were.

"Both the Germans and the Japaneese made their economies, as well as the Greeks mainly due to their effort."

The Germans and Japanese were also a part of the Marshall Plan, and received massive investments too.

"So, stop being "provocative" by saying the others developed you, because simply every nation is the master of it's own fate... as the Greeks were and as you are and will be."

Hard when our attempts to be masters of our own destiny were annihilated by tanks, armored cars and armed police in Poznan 1956, Budapest 1956 and Prague 1968. Going back to the original point, we are now free and only now are our economies rising. Under Russian influence, we had no chance and this influence has still left its mark on our developmental levels.

I hope I have made my point clear to you that we fought for 50 years to free ourselves from destructive Russian domination and will do anything to ensure we or any other former Soviet state does not have to go through the same hell again.

Would you like Greece to go back to Turkish rule?

smile

"So, poland, ukraine, georgia, all of you, and i think there's dozens of you, just learn to live with this new reality and make rational moves."

How was the bombardment of Gori and threatening to fire nukes at Poland rational?

"to us serbs the bear is a soft cuddly teddy. why do you think you cant achieve the same kind of relationship with russia?"

Because that teddy bear has never invaded, occupied, suppressed, deported, enslaved and murdered the Serbs. They have done it to the Ukrainians, Poles, Georgians, Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians and still not acknowledged or apologized for any of it.

Why don't you go back to living together with Turkey?

> The Greek:

...for being "west" you need other things than just "a religion" or a geographical position. You need economy. You need culture.

You can only resort to offences in arguing with me & Peter Sudyka who clearly explained the position of Central Europeans and why we never ever can trust Russia (unless - as Peter said - it apologizes for the cruel crimes it has committed to us & other nations in Europe, then the process of 'building trust' can somehow commence).

Of course - you prefer to know none of that as you were enjoying all the support of the US & Europe while we were suffering the way you can never imagine. Not necessarily in material way - our people have always been very efficient so even during the Russian occupation we did manage to live in a decent way - despite the Russians abusing us day & night.

After 1989 our countries were liberated and the true potential of our people has been showing up since then.

Basically what is happening is, that country like Greece has been losing havily as Central Europe as well as your 'almost' neighbours like Slovenia & Croatia now stand much higher in importance in the West & for the West and you know it.

The time's up for artificial position of Greece when the country is not offering much else than beaches & ruins & bad infrastructure. For example Croatia offers much nicer sea & increasingly better infrastructure.

As for dreaming of the West - do you seriously thing that anyone in CEE has ever considered you - Greece - a rich & Western country??

By the way - did you know that Czechoslovakia was THE 10TH richest country in the world in 1930's?? Bet you didn't (so now the correction of your lack of knowledge...) Where was Greece then? A poor country on par with Albania or Turkey.

As for culture & what a country has achieved. Culture is - as those who know do know - is directly related to religion & values that prevail in a given country/society and any country's culture is firmly based on those values, even for people who don't even care about a church, let alone being religious etc. Everything that happens in a society is somehow related to its culture based on it's religion/set of values for centuries. As yours is Eastern Orthodox, you are officially an Eastern country with lifestyle & values close to Russia & the whole Orthodox world.

By the way: for your GDP data I have another that you will not like that much:

Czech Republic: $24,236 per head
Greece: $29,172 per head
Slovenia: $27,205 per head
Spain: $30,120 per head

So, Spain is still richer than Greece and Slovenia & Czech Republic are not far behind, so stop inventing dreams about your greatness:))

If you don't believe me, check the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

> Romanian: The Czech people hasn't achieved anytihng in all fields in their history. They have never had an empire like the Poles and Greeks, no famous Czechs.

Romanian - leaving aside your remark that Czech people never had an empire - is that a measure of success? Is the enslaving other nations a good thing to do you think? Isn't it better to be a developed, friendly & cultured nation that can boost so many personalities that most other nations can be only envy of ours - to name but a few:

Charles IV (Karel IV.), who also became the Holy Roman Emperor, thus turning Prague into the capital of the West for several centuries, founding Charles University (my Alma Matter) in 1348, first in CE & a top world university.

Writer Franz Kafka (born in Prague) wrote most of his works in Prague

Poet Jaroslav Seifert was awarded the Nobel Literature Prize.

Mikoláš Aleš was a painter, known for redesigning the Prague National Theatre.

Composers Bedøich Smetana and Antonín Dvoøák have also been praised and the latter continued his work in New York, USA

Film director Miloš Forman, known best for his movie, One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest is of Czech origin and started his career in the Czech Republic.

Václav Havel, who became the first president of the independent Czech Republic

* Tennis- Ivan Lendl, Martina Navrátilová
* Soccer- Karel Poborsky, Josef Masopust
* Hockey- Jaromír Jágr, Dominik Hašek
* Athletics - Emil Zátopek, Roman Šebrle

How can you seriously claim Czechs have never achieved anything in history?? What about Romanians or Greeks (at least in last millenium please, 2000 years ago is a long time ins't it?).


> The Czech people were very rich at the beginning of the 20th century (the 20s and 30s) because of the massive investment of the Austrians in their economy.

You got it wrong - Czechs were the richest part of the old Austria-Hungary Empire and the most industrialised. Nothing any Balkan has ever achieved - partly a reason why we are now - as always - doing much better than Eastern Eropean nations, Central Europe has always been more developed and continues to be...

I have to say I'm not surprised by your remarks Romanian - defending a country that belongs to the same your Eastern civilization. See - if a crunch time comes, you will all side with Russia against us - the West. That is why the EU & NATO should include only culturally & politically Western countries.

to Mirek
We can't fool us. The Austrian Empire has industrialized the Czech lands during the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries. That's why you were so rich. Anyway I see you are the one who is offending the Greeks and not the other way around. As I said before your countrymen haven't accomplished anything major during their whole history. As if that weren't enough a part of your nation has split from it becoming the Slovak nation, although in the past Slovak was merely a Czech dialect. Not to mention the language: so full and consonants and so beautiful.

Mirek

I guess you can't explain that we had it hard under Russia if Greece has a religious bond and never had it bad under Russia.

p, what i'm saying is that it’s an extremely ill thought through move to offer americans to build missile shield on your soil. it’s a knee jerk reaction. by the americans. all they can do now is push irresponsible leaders of small dependencies into knee jerk reactions and use ridiculous russophobe rhetoric.
sure they will pat your subservient politicians on the back and some of them are even looking at lucrative futures in brussels monster administration, but the gist of this is that while russia is fully prepared to strike at poland if it feels threatened by something on polish territory, clearly not by poles themselves, the united states will NOT strike back at russia. this is the reality. they will sacrifice any number of georgias in order to avoid a world war when they are bogged down on two big fronts, or really, whenever. and the beauty of this is that russians know it. it will be good for all of us if the little countries on russian borders realize this and just plain restrain themselves from thoughtless provocation. don’t poke the bear, i beg of you.
as for turkey, your comparison is just simplistic. if poland was dominated by russia it was dominated by a culture superior to your own. we on the other hand were exposed to brutal hordes that were directly opposite to everything our medieval empire was and stood for. our nation for generations upon generations paid a huge price just to remain christian let alone anything else.

and yet i don’t feel any rancour that you seem to be feeling toward russians who surely made your country better, not worse, in many ways. when i look in the mirror, when i say my name, i know we won, my ancestors did a good job, i'm christian, i'm slavic, i'm fine. who cares about turkey? anyway if turkey were as big as russia and we were on turkish borders i wouldn’t be friends with them but i would not needlessly provoke them to please someone 20000 miles away who wont come to my rescue.

also if i may address this ludicrous attempt by some to belittle greece of all nations.. i'm very much against what they're doing in macedonia but that has nothing to do with the fact that greece is the heart of europe. its the home of europe. saying anything else is really, really silly.

OK, I apologize. You had a few famous people. As you probably know the Greeks had dozens of Byzantine emperors. Even Wallachia and Moldavia had dozens of Greek
princes in the 18th and early 19th centuries. I have heard about Smetana, Dvorak and Forman. I've even had a Smetana CD. Very beautiful music. I don't know any famous Greeks from the 20th century except Nikos Kazantzakis (I think he got the Nobel prize). You must admit though that the names you mentioned are not by far so important as the Greek playwrights, historians, philosophers of the antiquity.

For Peter:

I know Peter, if someone does not want to even consider your arguments and are using empty ones themselves then it's better to stop wasting your time...

> Romanian: We can't fool us. The Austrian Empire has industrialized the Czech lands during the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries. That's why you were so rich.

You prefer to omit one important fact - we, Czechs were part of the Austria-Hungary, one of the nations, so it is not 'they' equipped us - we developed our capabilities through our people and were supplying the whole Monarchy/Empire & beyond...just check a history book, then you'll see.

> Anyway I see you are the one who is offending the Greeks and not the other way around.

Really?? Am I? So then you don't understand what an offense is or isn't man...As far as I see it (and surely I'm not alone), The Greek with your diligent help is trying to look down on Central Europeans in general. Why?

Anyway, he is looking down on you as well, so can't understand why you support his lies. Your problem in the end, isn't it? At least you get the facts right for your own good, he simply does not want to...his loss.

> smile: also if i may address this ludicrous attempt by some to belittle greece of all nations.. the fact that greece is the heart of europe. its the home of europe. saying anything else is really, really silly.

Really?? Maybe the heart of Eastern Europe, that I would understand (maybe for Balkan nations anyway). But try to ask a Czech, German or French..do you think that ANY of them would say Greece is the heart of Europe? Don't be ridiculous...Antique period was great, but 2000 years later it has worn out a bit, don't you think? No Western or Central European (i.e. the real 'Europeans') would agree with you man.

All the Best to All Good People

smile

"p, what i'm saying is that it’s an extremely ill thought through move to offer americans to build missile shield on your soil."

These are not nuclear ICBMs, these are DEFENSIVE air defense missiles. Why is Russia so against a set of missiles that are used in DEFENSE and not offense? If it makes Russia feel better, why don't they build a missile shield on Cuba? Why do they insist on threatening Poland over an internal NATO matter that, in no way, can harm Russia?

"sure they will pat your subservient politicians on the back and some of them are even looking at lucrative futures in brussels monster administration, but the gist of this is that while russia is fully prepared to strike at poland if it feels threatened by something on polish territory, clearly not by poles themselves, the united states will NOT strike back at russia."

Threatened by what, I ask? If they feel threatened by a DEFENSIVE shield and are prepared to launch a nuke at it, how can we trust them?

BTW I think Xeroczynski is behaving like a typical complexed, little primitive when it comes to Russia, I definitely prefer the moderate approach of Donald Tusk and cannot wait for him to be voted out of power, but I don't think Russia should be taking this missile shield too harshly.

"our nation for generations upon generations paid a huge price just to remain christian let alone anything else. "

Well our nation for generations upon generations had to pay a huge price just to be able to use our own language, to write our own literature, to write our own poems just to remain Polish. Most of Belarus are just Russified Poles and Lithuanians, while eastern Ukraine is mostly Russified Ukrainians as well, thankfully we resisted that.

"and yet i don’t feel any rancour that you seem to be feeling toward russians who surely made your country better, not worse, in many ways. "

I am trying to think of one. Maybe you can help me to find one. At least the Germans who were equally bad to us in the past as Russia have at least given us money to build our infrastructure and have acknowledged and apologized to Poland for what they have done, and recompensated the Poles they used for slave labour in Germany during the war, not to mention normalizing relations with us. Of course you don't feel the rancour that others in Eastern Europe do because the Russians never tried to invade you, to assimilate you into their empire, to suppress our culture, language and heritage, to deport or murder those they considered threats (mostly intelligentsia, artists and other hamrless, innocent people), to deport large numbers of your population to be worked to death in the gulags, to massacre whole villages in pogroms or to ethnically cleanse your population from their age old lands to be given to someone else. I get the feeling that I am talking to a brick wall so I will stop.

On 18 August 2008 22:45, smile wrote:

"(...) just learn to live with this new reality and make rational moves."

Wow!! Did smile really encourage people to live and accept reality? Like the reality in Kosovo? Did pigs also learn to fly?
--

p, i'm not a brick, thanks brother :), but i may easily be a pro-russian wall. this transformation :) happened to me when i saw the government in moscow do more for the preservation of my people and state than any government in belgrade in my lifetime and surely not this one ruling collusion. these are no small matters. i'm amazed in a way that every generation of serbs finds out the big truth. you think, nah, i'm pro western, i live this way, i work this way, i dress this way, and then the time comes when it hits you, no i'm not, those are my enemies pretending to be friends, while russia is not a friend but mother, like our parents and grandparents said but we thought, what a silly thing to say.
now as for you i dont know that russians forbade you to speak your language or exterminated you. i see you're there in good numbers in your home country and indeed abroad ;) speaking with those lovely consonant groups all packed together and i'm happy for you. surely though at least a spec of shame goes into someone who relativises the crimes of nazi germany, the worst shame to humanity in its history. if all it will take for you to drop the russophobia is for russia to give you money, for godsakes, russians, give poles some money already.

for your main argument, shield is defensive, and that. it may well be true. but it makes no difference. russia is now a power that interprets actions on its borders with its own mind. and might makes right as some clever git said the other day. i was talking about the perception of those who can strike you, their perception of actions encouraged by those who will not protect you. i wasn’t talking about what's fair and what not. justice and international law will not be there to protect you in the post kosovo world because its a new world where fundamental rules have changed, in fact disappeared, no matter how hard some argue trying to obscure it. this is why russia can support us serbs in Kosovo, keep chechnya, and at the same time recognize south ossetia and abkhazia. this is why bush can talk about georgia's territorial integrity with a straight face. it’s a free for all. and it isn’t russians who made it possible.
again, small nations on russian borders must work to cooperate with russia, not to provoke it. i stand by that as a rational practical and sane argument.

and again to entertaining greece bashers, obviously when i'm talking about greece i'm talking about european values such as democracy, science, arts, and just about any other achievement of the civilization we belong to one can think of. i'm not thinking of other 'values and achievements' from some other parts of europe such as racist supremacy, nazism, fascism, delusions of grandeur and the like. each unto his own.