"Serbian resolution to carry moral weight"

Serbia talking about MORALS!!!!

It is indeed those 'morals' that brough you this deserved isolation. Worse is YET to come.

Ex-Yugoslav states would not stop laughing when they hear Serbia hypocritical rhetoric mentioning morals.

When you sum up everything evolving around Kosova, Serbia is wasting time, money and energy because the end result will still be the same, and that is Kosova is an Independent country.

Serbia has nothing to lose this time. If the decision defends sovereignity and territorial integrity, Serbia will have right to claim Kosovo for ever. If the decision defends self determination and secession, Serbia will have right to split Kosovo in two parts.

the ICJ shall rule for Serbia I am sure. the US and its allies are applying the SELECTIVE UNILATERALISM PRINCIPLE which is DEVILISH IN NATURE!!! Rwanda, Burma, Zimbabwe are totally ignored despite more catastrophic war and oppression happened. KOSOVO is a small country which is not too poor compared to these three mentioned countries but the US and the WEST invested and continued to invest in these place. in kosovo you can easily see huge houses even in villages, you can see luxury cars, cafe bars full of people, many petrol stations as well as HOTELS and MOTELS. and why you think the US and others are paying too much attention to this tiny place? NO OIL but a very STRATEGIC MILITARY PLACE IN THE BALKANS. Burma, Rwanda and Zimbabwe dont have nothing that interests the WEST. THESE considered, the ICJ shall rule for SERBIA against the ILLEGAL UNILATERAL ACTION OF THE WEST IN KOSOVO INDEPENDENCE.

I agree with italy.

Its a win-win for Serbia. If ICJ votes in favour, Serbia has the right to reclaim Kosovo. If it votes against Serbia's favour, Serbia should take half of Kosovo.
Win-win.
(BKK, 15 August 2008 17:02)

If it votes against Serbia, Serbia will take Republika Srpska too :)....and Russia will help us do it. Win-Win.
Cheers!!

I'm not too worried about the kneejerk comments coming from Albanian camps, either officially from Pristina or on this site. They tend to always be oversimplistic as well as absolute, as if their opinions actually matter on the world stage. They also tend to view themselves in a far too exaggerated role in the region beyond the hyper-depdendent colony they inhabit. Belgrade at least is approaching this from a far more rational perspective, being aware, it seems, that a favorable ruling will not automatically nullify sovereignty. Rather, it seems that a favorable ruling, if it does come, will give Belgrade the diplomatic capital to either push for partition or political confederalization of Kosovo in which the Serb Assembly of Mitrovica is legally recognized as a co-legitimate political government.

I wouldn't be so quick to poo-poo this initiative as some of our Albanian friends and "leaders" are quick to do. Kosovo may not be going back under Serbia, but it's incredibly limited sovereignty may get even more limited as the internal dynamic of this parastate could significantly alter to reflect the demands of the Serbs in exchange for greater peace and stability. Belgrade has nothing to lose. Pristina certainly does.

I agree with italy.

Its a win-win for Serbia. If ICJ votes in favour, Serbia has the right to reclaim Kosovo. If it votes against Serbia's favour, Serbia should take half of Kosovo.
Win-win.

There is a new reality unfolding right in front of our eyes and that is that the sovereignty of Serbia and now Georgia are inexplicably linked from now on whether we all like it or not. Given the fact that Georgia means so much to Americans, in fact a lot more than Kosovo, all this brings a totally new dimension to the future outcome. I am confident that the international law will prevail and that a substantial autonomy will be the new formula for solving both conflicts and all future ones involving ethnic minorities.

Well, have you guys ever thought what after the ICJ’s decision…..what if ICJ decides Kosova had every right to declare its independence?

Don’t forget that you’ll be fighting lawyers from best lawyer schools worldwide (whose countries recognized Kosova’s independence) such as: Harvard, Cambridge ect. And they have (or make or whatever is the English word for it) 70 % of the worlds Gross Domestic Product (GPD)…..

Very powerful countries!

In the world we live in, no one cares about moral weights anymore.

Serbian politicians need to learn that people of Serbia are familiar with “Moral Victories” and they need real results not fairy tales of somekind ICJ.

No good will come from Serbia's appeal to ICJ. At the very least , this desperate maneuver will serve only to embarrass Serbia once again in the eyes of the World. It is like a child repeatedly asking its parents for some candy only to receive the same reply: "absolutely NOT!"

If by some strange chance the General Assembly has a lapse in logic and recommends a hearing before the ICJ, there is a very good chance that the ICJ will refuse to hear the case, resulting in the coffin being sealed forever with Serbia being buried alive.

However, in the most unlikely outcome, if the ICJ rules for Serbia, by then Kosova will have earned at least 100 recognitions and there will be no further appeals left for Serbia to waste the time of everyone!

http://www.new statesman.com/europe/2008/08/pilger-kosovo-war-nato-serbs

Hi B92
This link that Kate has sent is very important as it was written by John Pilger who is a renowed respected journalist.
He writes in depth honest articles in the UK press and presents Documtaries on uk tv.
Just a suggestion but i think you should really highlight this fact and keep the link for others to see.
Regards Branko

Michael John, are you living in the same world as the rest of us?
John Pilger's article is very well written. This article dismisses the claims by Albanians that there was some sort of ethnic cleansing being done against them.
If Kosovo is 90% Albanian, how exactly is that ethnic cleansing? It looks very much like the Serbs were ethnically cleansed as they have been reduced to only 10%.
I was very fortunate to be able to attend a speech by John Pilger when he came to Melbourne and was very impressed by him. I have read his books and find him very courageous to be willing to tell the truth when telling the truth is very unpopular and brings on attacks against him.

It is very interesting that Albanians here worry so much about Serbia's image and finances. Constantly warning Serbia not to waste her money or time going to ICJ.
Albanians, please don't worry too much about these things.
If Serbia is wrong to do this they will end up with egg on their face so let's just see what happens.

Whichever way it goes it's going to be a win for Serbia.
If the court rules that every minority has a right to secede then RS and North Kosovo will do exactly the same as you have done. Once they join with Serbia proper they will make Serbia that much bigger and better.
If the court rules the opposite they have lost nothing again.
Either way, win win for Serbia. I suppose this is what you are really worried about.

Serbia doesn't deserve to have whole Kosovo (it's not workable anymore - to be real) BUT,

Albanians doesn't deserve it too, for sure.
Division should be obvious solution - but on what terms?

Kosovo - "leaders" backed by US don't want to give up anything - but they don't realise without Serbain blessing they still don't have much.

So - DIVISION or FROZEN conflict forever???

Who will suffer more in a future - time will show.

I think Serbia is using this kind of chances to condole serbian peoples from lose.
If this request dosent past in ICJ Serbia should stop its anti-recognision of Kosova because it cant work against ICJ decisions.

not only has the situation changed in regard to Russia´s international weight, although only our albanian friends have had doubts about that - no, Serbia is gaining support from more and more states worldwide.

now even Indonesia the worlds biggest muslim country, in regard to population numbers, is openly supporting Serbia over Kosovo. then Brasil, Russia, China, India, Spain, Slovakia, Greece, Cyprus, Romania etc...

and I still wait for the "wave" of "recognitions"...

as for Ahmed
"In the world we live in, no one cares about moral weights anymore.
(Ahmet Isufi, 15 August 2008 16:42)"

I truly believe you that you don´t live in a world of moral values! but, just wait a little bit, until Serbia re-integrates it´s southern province again, and you will be located in a state BASED on moral values.

let´s just see what future brings!

Isufi says..."In the world we live in, no one cares about moral weights anymore"

Another dangerous generalization.

I know many people who are morally strong.

Please speak for yourself.

"parastate" "colony" "overlysimplistic"

Mike, you always speak as if your opinions carry some sort of expertise. Your knowledge of international affairs is elementary at best. Jeremic's inititative abroad paralel Putnam's two-level game coneptualization. This initiative's main objective is to strenghten the government's political credibility in the domestic political system, thereby maintaining their rule.

As much as you don't seem to recognize, your so called "leaders" in Kosovo are gaining more executive power.

Although, I agree that the ICJ initiative should concern Kosovo, it's effect would most likely wont even be felt. ICJ will most likely rule in favor of Kosovo.

Peggy,

the "ethnic cleansing in Kosovo argument" is one area of debate that should never be discussed by the Serb government. If we were to be arguing in a court of law, it would be a political suicide for the Serb side to even bring that argument in. History is very well documented. The articles that you post--and I have read them-- are just overused semantics utilized prove/disprove elements of logic. The unit of analysis is not the LOGIC, the unit is the FACTS. With the advent of information highway, and the education of the world on the Balkans, Kosovo and Serbia, have rendered that tactic obsolete.

I am not being overly optimistic, but I am sure of one thing, while NATO, UN, EU remain in Kosovo, Serbia has no de jure power over the situation in Kosovo--besides sabotage. With that said, an agreement would have to be reached between Prishtina and the Serb community in Northern Mitrovica.

I would just like to reiterate the concept of the two-level game. Its diplmoacy 101.

WVU-Mountie worte.

Peggy,

the "ethnic cleansing in Kosovo argument" is one area of debate that should never be discussed by the Serb government. If we were to be arguing in a court of law, it would be a political suicide for the Serb side to even bring that argument in. History is very well documented. The articles that you post--and I have read them-- are just overused semantics utilized prove/disprove elements of logic. The unit of analysis is not the LOGIC, the unit is the FACTS. With the advent of information highway, and the education of the world on the Balkans, Kosovo and Serbia, have rendered that tactic obsolete.

I for one would love to see this debated in court. You see, in court you need proof and Albanians don't have any.
It's all propaganda and over inflated numbers. In court all the facts would come out not just what you want to present to the world and then we would see exactly how many Serbs were ethnically cleansed and over what period of time. I am confident it would not come out your way.

Stating that 90% Albanian population in Kosovo does not constitute ethnic cleansing is logical, yes, but also factual. How do you explain this percentage if you had ethnic cleansing. How do you explain a higher percentage than before the war. Should't it be lower just like the percentage of Serbs there is lower now than before?

In court you will need to explain all this and more. Good luck.

Real Canadian, you talk about Vojvodina going to the Hungarians. What makes you so sure that that would happen? Have you polled the population there to know how many would vote that way in a referendum? I love the way the Albanians love to fabricate figures. Besides Vojvodina is not Hungarian territory so it cannot go there. When you settle in a country you do not have the right to eventually break away from it. If that were true then four million Muslims should take a huge chunk of England and France with them and make those territories their own countries.
Having huge families does not give you the right to take someone else's territory.

Whichever way it goes it's going to be a win for Serbia.
If the court rules that every minority has a right to secede then RS and North Kosovo will do exactly the same as you have done. Once they join with Serbia proper they will make Serbia that much bigger and better.
If the court rules the opposite they have lost nothing again.
Either way, win win for Serbia. I suppose this is what you are really worried about.
(Peggy, 16 August 2008 10:09)

What about Presevo Valley Albanian part going to Kosova/o or Vojvodina Hungarians parts going to Hungary? Just wondered your expert opinion on a win-win solution...Anyway lets see what happens it's going to be interesting by all means...My gut feeling is that UN will not side with Serbia.
EU is the prosperity way, why not pay more attention on that front? there you can actually win something... the other way there is no win...

Serbia talking about MORALS!!!!

It is indeed those 'morals' that brough you this deserved isolation. Worse is YET to come.

Ex-Yugoslav states would not stop laughing when they hear Serbia hypocritical rhetoric mentioning morals.

When you sum up everything evolving around Kosova, Serbia is wasting time, money and energy because the end result will still be the same, and that is Kosova is an Independent country.

No good will come from Serbia's appeal to ICJ. At the very least , this desperate maneuver will serve only to embarrass Serbia once again in the eyes of the World. It is like a child repeatedly asking its parents for some candy only to receive the same reply: "absolutely NOT!"

If by some strange chance the General Assembly has a lapse in logic and recommends a hearing before the ICJ, there is a very good chance that the ICJ will refuse to hear the case, resulting in the coffin being sealed forever with Serbia being buried alive.

However, in the most unlikely outcome, if the ICJ rules for Serbia, by then Kosova will have earned at least 100 recognitions and there will be no further appeals left for Serbia to waste the time of everyone!

Well, have you guys ever thought what after the ICJ’s decision…..what if ICJ decides Kosova had every right to declare its independence?

Don’t forget that you’ll be fighting lawyers from best lawyer schools worldwide (whose countries recognized Kosova’s independence) such as: Harvard, Cambridge ect. And they have (or make or whatever is the English word for it) 70 % of the worlds Gross Domestic Product (GPD)…..

Very powerful countries!

Serbia has nothing to lose this time. If the decision defends sovereignity and territorial integrity, Serbia will have right to claim Kosovo for ever. If the decision defends self determination and secession, Serbia will have right to split Kosovo in two parts.

There is a new reality unfolding right in front of our eyes and that is that the sovereignty of Serbia and now Georgia are inexplicably linked from now on whether we all like it or not. Given the fact that Georgia means so much to Americans, in fact a lot more than Kosovo, all this brings a totally new dimension to the future outcome. I am confident that the international law will prevail and that a substantial autonomy will be the new formula for solving both conflicts and all future ones involving ethnic minorities.

Serbian politicians need to learn that people of Serbia are familiar with “Moral Victories” and they need real results not fairy tales of somekind ICJ.

the ICJ shall rule for Serbia I am sure. the US and its allies are applying the SELECTIVE UNILATERALISM PRINCIPLE which is DEVILISH IN NATURE!!! Rwanda, Burma, Zimbabwe are totally ignored despite more catastrophic war and oppression happened. KOSOVO is a small country which is not too poor compared to these three mentioned countries but the US and the WEST invested and continued to invest in these place. in kosovo you can easily see huge houses even in villages, you can see luxury cars, cafe bars full of people, many petrol stations as well as HOTELS and MOTELS. and why you think the US and others are paying too much attention to this tiny place? NO OIL but a very STRATEGIC MILITARY PLACE IN THE BALKANS. Burma, Rwanda and Zimbabwe dont have nothing that interests the WEST. THESE considered, the ICJ shall rule for SERBIA against the ILLEGAL UNILATERAL ACTION OF THE WEST IN KOSOVO INDEPENDENCE.

I'm not too worried about the kneejerk comments coming from Albanian camps, either officially from Pristina or on this site. They tend to always be oversimplistic as well as absolute, as if their opinions actually matter on the world stage. They also tend to view themselves in a far too exaggerated role in the region beyond the hyper-depdendent colony they inhabit. Belgrade at least is approaching this from a far more rational perspective, being aware, it seems, that a favorable ruling will not automatically nullify sovereignty. Rather, it seems that a favorable ruling, if it does come, will give Belgrade the diplomatic capital to either push for partition or political confederalization of Kosovo in which the Serb Assembly of Mitrovica is legally recognized as a co-legitimate political government.

I wouldn't be so quick to poo-poo this initiative as some of our Albanian friends and "leaders" are quick to do. Kosovo may not be going back under Serbia, but it's incredibly limited sovereignty may get even more limited as the internal dynamic of this parastate could significantly alter to reflect the demands of the Serbs in exchange for greater peace and stability. Belgrade has nothing to lose. Pristina certainly does.

In the world we live in, no one cares about moral weights anymore.

Serbia doesn't deserve to have whole Kosovo (it's not workable anymore - to be real) BUT,

Albanians doesn't deserve it too, for sure.
Division should be obvious solution - but on what terms?

Kosovo - "leaders" backed by US don't want to give up anything - but they don't realise without Serbain blessing they still don't have much.

So - DIVISION or FROZEN conflict forever???

Who will suffer more in a future - time will show.

I agree with italy.

Its a win-win for Serbia. If ICJ votes in favour, Serbia has the right to reclaim Kosovo. If it votes against Serbia's favour, Serbia should take half of Kosovo.
Win-win.

I think Serbia is using this kind of chances to condole serbian peoples from lose.
If this request dosent past in ICJ Serbia should stop its anti-recognision of Kosova because it cant work against ICJ decisions.

I agree with italy.

Its a win-win for Serbia. If ICJ votes in favour, Serbia has the right to reclaim Kosovo. If it votes against Serbia's favour, Serbia should take half of Kosovo.
Win-win.
(BKK, 15 August 2008 17:02)

If it votes against Serbia, Serbia will take Republika Srpska too :)....and Russia will help us do it. Win-Win.
Cheers!!

"parastate" "colony" "overlysimplistic"

Mike, you always speak as if your opinions carry some sort of expertise. Your knowledge of international affairs is elementary at best. Jeremic's inititative abroad paralel Putnam's two-level game coneptualization. This initiative's main objective is to strenghten the government's political credibility in the domestic political system, thereby maintaining their rule.

As much as you don't seem to recognize, your so called "leaders" in Kosovo are gaining more executive power.

Although, I agree that the ICJ initiative should concern Kosovo, it's effect would most likely wont even be felt. ICJ will most likely rule in favor of Kosovo.

Peggy,

the "ethnic cleansing in Kosovo argument" is one area of debate that should never be discussed by the Serb government. If we were to be arguing in a court of law, it would be a political suicide for the Serb side to even bring that argument in. History is very well documented. The articles that you post--and I have read them-- are just overused semantics utilized prove/disprove elements of logic. The unit of analysis is not the LOGIC, the unit is the FACTS. With the advent of information highway, and the education of the world on the Balkans, Kosovo and Serbia, have rendered that tactic obsolete.

I am not being overly optimistic, but I am sure of one thing, while NATO, UN, EU remain in Kosovo, Serbia has no de jure power over the situation in Kosovo--besides sabotage. With that said, an agreement would have to be reached between Prishtina and the Serb community in Northern Mitrovica.

I would just like to reiterate the concept of the two-level game. Its diplmoacy 101.

Whichever way it goes it's going to be a win for Serbia.
If the court rules that every minority has a right to secede then RS and North Kosovo will do exactly the same as you have done. Once they join with Serbia proper they will make Serbia that much bigger and better.
If the court rules the opposite they have lost nothing again.
Either way, win win for Serbia. I suppose this is what you are really worried about.
(Peggy, 16 August 2008 10:09)

What about Presevo Valley Albanian part going to Kosova/o or Vojvodina Hungarians parts going to Hungary? Just wondered your expert opinion on a win-win solution...Anyway lets see what happens it's going to be interesting by all means...My gut feeling is that UN will not side with Serbia.
EU is the prosperity way, why not pay more attention on that front? there you can actually win something... the other way there is no win...

http://www.new statesman.com/europe/2008/08/pilger-kosovo-war-nato-serbs

Hi B92
This link that Kate has sent is very important as it was written by John Pilger who is a renowed respected journalist.
He writes in depth honest articles in the UK press and presents Documtaries on uk tv.
Just a suggestion but i think you should really highlight this fact and keep the link for others to see.
Regards Branko

Isufi says..."In the world we live in, no one cares about moral weights anymore"

Another dangerous generalization.

I know many people who are morally strong.

Please speak for yourself.

Michael John, are you living in the same world as the rest of us?
John Pilger's article is very well written. This article dismisses the claims by Albanians that there was some sort of ethnic cleansing being done against them.
If Kosovo is 90% Albanian, how exactly is that ethnic cleansing? It looks very much like the Serbs were ethnically cleansed as they have been reduced to only 10%.
I was very fortunate to be able to attend a speech by John Pilger when he came to Melbourne and was very impressed by him. I have read his books and find him very courageous to be willing to tell the truth when telling the truth is very unpopular and brings on attacks against him.

It is very interesting that Albanians here worry so much about Serbia's image and finances. Constantly warning Serbia not to waste her money or time going to ICJ.
Albanians, please don't worry too much about these things.
If Serbia is wrong to do this they will end up with egg on their face so let's just see what happens.

Whichever way it goes it's going to be a win for Serbia.
If the court rules that every minority has a right to secede then RS and North Kosovo will do exactly the same as you have done. Once they join with Serbia proper they will make Serbia that much bigger and better.
If the court rules the opposite they have lost nothing again.
Either way, win win for Serbia. I suppose this is what you are really worried about.

not only has the situation changed in regard to Russia´s international weight, although only our albanian friends have had doubts about that - no, Serbia is gaining support from more and more states worldwide.

now even Indonesia the worlds biggest muslim country, in regard to population numbers, is openly supporting Serbia over Kosovo. then Brasil, Russia, China, India, Spain, Slovakia, Greece, Cyprus, Romania etc...

and I still wait for the "wave" of "recognitions"...

as for Ahmed
"In the world we live in, no one cares about moral weights anymore.
(Ahmet Isufi, 15 August 2008 16:42)"

I truly believe you that you don´t live in a world of moral values! but, just wait a little bit, until Serbia re-integrates it´s southern province again, and you will be located in a state BASED on moral values.

let´s just see what future brings!

WVU-Mountie worte.

Peggy,

the "ethnic cleansing in Kosovo argument" is one area of debate that should never be discussed by the Serb government. If we were to be arguing in a court of law, it would be a political suicide for the Serb side to even bring that argument in. History is very well documented. The articles that you post--and I have read them-- are just overused semantics utilized prove/disprove elements of logic. The unit of analysis is not the LOGIC, the unit is the FACTS. With the advent of information highway, and the education of the world on the Balkans, Kosovo and Serbia, have rendered that tactic obsolete.

I for one would love to see this debated in court. You see, in court you need proof and Albanians don't have any.
It's all propaganda and over inflated numbers. In court all the facts would come out not just what you want to present to the world and then we would see exactly how many Serbs were ethnically cleansed and over what period of time. I am confident it would not come out your way.

Stating that 90% Albanian population in Kosovo does not constitute ethnic cleansing is logical, yes, but also factual. How do you explain this percentage if you had ethnic cleansing. How do you explain a higher percentage than before the war. Should't it be lower just like the percentage of Serbs there is lower now than before?

In court you will need to explain all this and more. Good luck.

Real Canadian, you talk about Vojvodina going to the Hungarians. What makes you so sure that that would happen? Have you polled the population there to know how many would vote that way in a referendum? I love the way the Albanians love to fabricate figures. Besides Vojvodina is not Hungarian territory so it cannot go there. When you settle in a country you do not have the right to eventually break away from it. If that were true then four million Muslims should take a huge chunk of England and France with them and make those territories their own countries.
Having huge families does not give you the right to take someone else's territory.