U.S. supports Macedonia’s NATO bid

Of course the IHT would support the fyromians. It serves the plans of the americans as always.
The funny thing is that they still try to keep their readers in the dark by posting stupid comments like this:
"Today’s International Herald Tribune also draws parallels between the dispute between Macedonia and Greece and that of Georgia and Russia.

“Macedonia must be given an invitation to join NATO immediately"
Why exactly fyrom must join "immediately"? What is the rush? What would the danger be for the region if they dont join today and they join tommorow? Either way, most of the balkan countries are in or in their way to join nato. So whats the rush? Maybe it is to alert their readers, to make them feel a kind of danger for world peace if fyrom doesnt join, in connection to the events in Ossetia?

The answer comes right after:
"which will send a decisive message to Moscow, ...//... and will stress the right to protect the territorial integrity of small countries,”
So yes, for the (usually ignorant of geopolitics and even geography) american readers, the IHT must create a crisis in the balkans, to combine it with the Ossetian crisis and so to stress the importance of a front against the bad Russians in these "dangerous" times.

But they dont stop there:
“In that way, Moscow will understand the West’s decisiveness when it comes to ‘frozen conflicts’, whether in Georgia, Macedonia or Kosovo"
So now Fyrom and Kossovo are suddenly "frozen conflicts"??
Since when? What is the conflict between Greece and fyrom? There is a name dispute, but in no case a "frozen conflict". Its not the same with Serbia and Kossovo. This is a "frozen conflict" since there is territorial dispute in the middle of this. Unless the IHT is informing us that fyrom actually HAS territorial aspirations against Greece, so yes, that would be a "frozen conflict", although the term is used to be used for the ex-USSR democracies and their disputes. Unless we Greece were also an ex soviet republic and we didnt know it.

But they also have to inform their ignorant readers that:
"(in Kossovo's case) Russia supports Serbia which is against the newly-proclaimed state’s independence".
So there you have your whole story my dear sheep readers. Russia is the bad gangster that supports the ones in denial (Serbia) and wants to punish those that go against them (Georgia).
Even the way those countries are mentioned in the article, (Georgia, fyrom, Kossovo, but not the other side of the "conflict") is pointing to the direction of which names the IHT readers should keep in mind.
"These are our people, you dont need to know the other parties, they are the bad guys."

My conclusion is:
IHT is not a newspaper to be taken seriously outside the usa. It is state subjective and so not credible.

Rice's comments epitomise the failures of US
foreign policy all over the world.Bogged down in Iraq,beaten by the Mullahs in
Afganistan and trying to save face with Iran these are
the legacies of the Bush administration.

Joe - as a pro-american albanian-i am no surprised by
your comments on Greece.It is not Greece but NATO that has violated its treaty.Article 5 says force can only be used for self-defence.Therefore,all the operations that NATO has or still is involved are illegal.BTW if the French and
the Germans have their way NATO will be history in the next few years.

How on earth is the (relatively civilised) dispute between Athens and Skopje anything like the _armed conflict_ between Russia and Georgia??? America is a power in decline and Condy knows it, Bushy knows it, Cheney knows it, the whole world knows it. That is why they want Vardar Macedonia in NATO. They just want them in just to get up Russia’s nose. Greece’s veto wasn’t a bolt out of the blue, it was a long time coming and Greece made it clear that it would use its veto. Nor was Greece’s veto unsupported. It had the support of many powerful NATO members, let’s not forget that. Nor was it the _only_ veto at Bucharest.

As a Greek I too believe Vardar Macedonia should be in NATO, but not under the name “Republic of Macedonia”. Certainly not after their government showed their true intentions in the multiple letters they have sent to various heads of states and organisations.

And one more thing. I read today that Vardar Macedonians who choose to travel to Greece for their holidays, are being held up at the border by Vardar Macedonian guards for hours in the blistering heat (with small children and babies), while buses from places like Serbia go through without a problem. What’s up with that?

"NATO will show that it is intent on enlarging and will stress the right to protect the territorial integrity of small countries. In that way, Moscow will understand the West’s decisiveness when it comes to ‘frozen conflicts’, whether in Georgia, Macedonia or Kosovo"

Does anyone see a fallacy? What about violating the territorial integrity of Serbia?

Looks like the poor (second-poor country in Europe after Moldova) FYROM "urgently" needs to spend few billion$$$ on these SAAB fighter airplanes.

And defend Western Balkan somewhere in Iraq or Afghanistan...

I think, Georgia got away cheap. As they won't enter NATO anytime soon, they won't be forced to buy these airplanes and they got 1000 people back from Iraq.

Who knows, maybe THAT was behind of Saakashvili's action? :-O

@4 Joe
"the US are getting tired of Greece's childish grandposturing with a small neighbor. Why are you not doing it with Turkey?"

Following my previous post about the IHT article, here comes the verification of my words.
The perfect example of american (and/or americanized) politics. Arrogance and ignorance. All in one package.
Lets settle the easy ones first and then the funny ones.
Why not with Turkey? What is the case with Turkey now? They want to be called "Ionia"? Sorry I didnt know that. Thanks for telling me, I am after the issue immediately.

"What was your NATO contribution anyway in the last 10-20 years? If I recall correctly absolutely nothing."
Well I am sorry to tell you but you dont recall correctly. Greece (within the nato frame but also outside of it) helped many more people than the americans decided to eliminate with their "peacekeeping".

"In 1999 you did nothing but sabotage. You anti-Americanism is close to that of Iran. I think the US was too patient with you for too long and should have a serious discussion with you."

So to you Joe, when someone has an opinion, he shouldnt be voicing it because it goes against the usa's policies. Well, that exactly is the reason of our anti-americanism as you call it. I call it free will.
So whenever the americans decide to kill innocent people and children (for example "in 1999 when we sabotaged"), everyone should shut up and go along and murder people. Well, excuse us for having a mind of our own and actually use it.
And anyways let me put it this way. If you dont like our attidute in nato then there are 2 things you can do:
1. Ask us out or
2. You get out.

Ataman,

I am not surprised that as a Russian you continue to polemize against NATO or any potential new member. NATO for you represents the only obstacle to redistribute Europe. But you can not dreem of a second Yalta anymore.
And Macedonia spending billions on new SAABs? Come on! You know very well that that poor country can not afford it. So why resort to polemic? In case of Macedonia I am sure that the US would help out with some needed hardware.

Ypnos,

NATO countries but especially the US are getting tired of Greece's childish grandposturing with a small neighbor. Why are you not doing it with Turkey?
What was your NATO contribution anyway in the last 10-20 years? If I recall correctly absolutely nothing.
In 1999 you did nothing but sabotage. You anti-Americanism is close to that of Iran. I think the US was too patient with you for too long and should have a serious discussion with you.

Ataman,

Lately - just like today - B92 apparently censured my comment to you. It looks like you are an "intouchable" in the eyes of B92. You opinions are sacrosanct. I will not make any attempt in the future to give my opposing views because by getting automatically cencured I am just losing my time.

@8 Joe
"And those readers at your great chagrin like the paper and get influenced by it a lot."
I fail to see my "great chagrin", since the IHT is one of the lowest selling papers in Europe, thus one of the lowest influencial papers, as it the right way to be.

"Also as I see you are in darkness about IHT. It is not avalaible in the US. It is for people OUTSIDE the US.
Sorry for having bursted your bubble with this revelation."

Actually my bubble is up and strong. The IHT is a paper published by the NY Times, a daughter company of it. And it actually is sold INSIDE the usa where ofcourse sells almost nothing, but the attitude is exactly the same. An american state propaganda material.
Wooooo I feel my bubble is going sky high :)

@9
"The oppression by the Greek state of Ethnic Macedonians, Greek ...//...Trial: Government stifles dissent on Macedonia."
So you base everything on 2 reports from an organisation that is financially aided from Soros (a known anti-Greek among others) that are dated 15 years ago and are based on individual "testimonies"????
Ok, you are credible :)

"Greece is acting extremely immature and insecure when putting down at every opportunity, what would otherwise be a friendly neighbor."
Greece is acting immature, when it is that Gruevski has evidently revealed to the whole world that his dream was to be a post office employe, with all those letters he is sending left and right?
And I also fail to see the "friendly neighbor" when they burn Greek flags, portait karamanlis wearing an SS uniform, defacing Greek Tourism posters in Rome, Italy in a clearly Greek exhibition, defacing the Greek flag with a swastica, stating by officials that Thessaloniki is their capital, want me to continue?

"The bile-spitting of ultra-nationalists like Nikitas definitely doesn't help."
And all of the above help?

Look, you have a problem. A serious one. Ask that boy in the post office to either be serious or move out if you want fyrom to get in any kind of international organisation. You are not "macedonians", you are never going to be and start living with it. Want to progress? Be constructive. Want to dissolve? Keep on doing what you are doing. In a few years you will be either albanian or Bulgarian if you keep up like this, and then it will be you to blame for the new nationalistic sparks in the Balkans.
Think about it and then try and think again if I am tha ultra-nationalist or you (the fyromians) are the ones jeopardising stability in the region.

Joe

“NATO countries but especially the US are getting tired of Greece's childish grandposturing with a small neighbor.”

Who exactly is this “the US” you refer to? Their government? Last I heard, relations weren’t too bad. They’ll only get better when Obama is voted in as he has stated he’s going to take sides on the naming issue and it’ll be Greece’s side. Oh and “grandposturing” isn’t a word.

“Why are you not doing it with Turkey?”

Doing what? Are you under the impression that we’re scared of Turkey? Their economy is so fragile right now that if their army ventured outside their borders, the supply line wouldn’t last a week.

“What was your NATO contribution anyway in the last 10-20 years?”

Plenty, read up on it. The answers will disappoint the bloodthirsty ones though, as it was all humanitarian. Not all NATO contributions come in the form of bullets and bombs.

“In 1999 you did nothing but sabotage.”

Sabotage whom? The KLA war criminals? The bombing of Serbian schools and hospitals? If by sabotage you mean a conscientious choice to _not_ take the American line and bomb our allies, brothers and sisters then yes and proud of it.

“You anti-Americanism is close to that of Iran. I think the US was too patient with you for too long and should have a serious discussion with you.”

And who cares what you think? What are the Americans going to do? Bomb a NATO ally? And for what? To appease some Albanians in a backwater country? Get real – every single US administration has made it clear to you people. “Do not expect the US to turn its back on an old and traditional ally.”

Gjorgjievski - when you decide to elect a government that isn't run by a bunch of cranky _ultra-nationalist_ ex-Greeks (Milososki, aka the Milosis family from Florina) - then we can talk. Also interesting that all your ex-leaders have decided to bolt for the Bulgarian border, take on Bulgarian nationalities and climb aboard the EU gravy train.

I also note that you haven't posted a link about the human rights violations in your own country. Allow me to oblige.
(http://www.hrw.org/worldreport99/europe/macedonia.html)

"Macedonia’s ethnic communities—Albanians, Turks, Roma, and Bulgarians, among others—were especially susceptible to abuse. But violations cut across ethnic lines: all ethnic groups in Macedonia suffered violence at the hands of the police, as well asprocedural violations, almost always with no recourse through the courts. The common characteristic among victims, rather than ethnicity, was usually the person’s oppositional political activity or low social-economic status."

How much longer do you think Albanians are going to put up with this before they Kosovise your tiny country?

Nikitas,

The problem for you and Greeks in general is that those are the readers in Europe, who decide if IHT is serious or not. And those readers at your great chagrin like the paper and get influenced by it a lot.
Also as I see you are in darkness about IHT. It is not avalaible in the US. It is for people OUTSIDE the US.
Sorry for having bursted your bubble with this revelation.

The oppression by the Greek state of Ethnic Macedonians, Greek citizens, in Greek Macedonia, and the persecution of Ethnic Macedonian activists who are exercising their human right to free speech and self expression, is best documented by the Human Rights Watch/Helsinki Monitor (www.hrw.org) in their two reports: Denying Ethnic Identity: The Macedonians of Greece and Greece Free Speech on Trial: Government stifles dissent on Macedonia.

As probably everybody already knows, The Human Rights Watch is one of the oldest and most respected organization dedicated to protecting the human rights of people around the world, which investigates and exposes human rights violations and holds abusers accountable.

I agree with Ypnos above that the parallel of Greece/Macedonia dispute with the Georgia/Russia one is far fetched, but that doesn't diminish the fact that Greece is acting extremely immature and insecure when putting down at every opportunity, what would otherwise be a friendly neighbor.

The bile-spitting of ultra-nationalists like Nikitas definitely doesn't help.

How on earth is the (relatively civilised) dispute between Athens and Skopje anything like the _armed conflict_ between Russia and Georgia??? America is a power in decline and Condy knows it, Bushy knows it, Cheney knows it, the whole world knows it. That is why they want Vardar Macedonia in NATO. They just want them in just to get up Russia’s nose. Greece’s veto wasn’t a bolt out of the blue, it was a long time coming and Greece made it clear that it would use its veto. Nor was Greece’s veto unsupported. It had the support of many powerful NATO members, let’s not forget that. Nor was it the _only_ veto at Bucharest.

As a Greek I too believe Vardar Macedonia should be in NATO, but not under the name “Republic of Macedonia”. Certainly not after their government showed their true intentions in the multiple letters they have sent to various heads of states and organisations.

And one more thing. I read today that Vardar Macedonians who choose to travel to Greece for their holidays, are being held up at the border by Vardar Macedonian guards for hours in the blistering heat (with small children and babies), while buses from places like Serbia go through without a problem. What’s up with that?

Looks like the poor (second-poor country in Europe after Moldova) FYROM "urgently" needs to spend few billion$$$ on these SAAB fighter airplanes.

And defend Western Balkan somewhere in Iraq or Afghanistan...

I think, Georgia got away cheap. As they won't enter NATO anytime soon, they won't be forced to buy these airplanes and they got 1000 people back from Iraq.

Who knows, maybe THAT was behind of Saakashvili's action? :-O

The oppression by the Greek state of Ethnic Macedonians, Greek citizens, in Greek Macedonia, and the persecution of Ethnic Macedonian activists who are exercising their human right to free speech and self expression, is best documented by the Human Rights Watch/Helsinki Monitor (www.hrw.org) in their two reports: Denying Ethnic Identity: The Macedonians of Greece and Greece Free Speech on Trial: Government stifles dissent on Macedonia.

As probably everybody already knows, The Human Rights Watch is one of the oldest and most respected organization dedicated to protecting the human rights of people around the world, which investigates and exposes human rights violations and holds abusers accountable.

I agree with Ypnos above that the parallel of Greece/Macedonia dispute with the Georgia/Russia one is far fetched, but that doesn't diminish the fact that Greece is acting extremely immature and insecure when putting down at every opportunity, what would otherwise be a friendly neighbor.

The bile-spitting of ultra-nationalists like Nikitas definitely doesn't help.

@4 Joe
"the US are getting tired of Greece's childish grandposturing with a small neighbor. Why are you not doing it with Turkey?"

Following my previous post about the IHT article, here comes the verification of my words.
The perfect example of american (and/or americanized) politics. Arrogance and ignorance. All in one package.
Lets settle the easy ones first and then the funny ones.
Why not with Turkey? What is the case with Turkey now? They want to be called "Ionia"? Sorry I didnt know that. Thanks for telling me, I am after the issue immediately.

"What was your NATO contribution anyway in the last 10-20 years? If I recall correctly absolutely nothing."
Well I am sorry to tell you but you dont recall correctly. Greece (within the nato frame but also outside of it) helped many more people than the americans decided to eliminate with their "peacekeeping".

"In 1999 you did nothing but sabotage. You anti-Americanism is close to that of Iran. I think the US was too patient with you for too long and should have a serious discussion with you."

So to you Joe, when someone has an opinion, he shouldnt be voicing it because it goes against the usa's policies. Well, that exactly is the reason of our anti-americanism as you call it. I call it free will.
So whenever the americans decide to kill innocent people and children (for example "in 1999 when we sabotaged"), everyone should shut up and go along and murder people. Well, excuse us for having a mind of our own and actually use it.
And anyways let me put it this way. If you dont like our attidute in nato then there are 2 things you can do:
1. Ask us out or
2. You get out.

Gjorgjievski - when you decide to elect a government that isn't run by a bunch of cranky _ultra-nationalist_ ex-Greeks (Milososki, aka the Milosis family from Florina) - then we can talk. Also interesting that all your ex-leaders have decided to bolt for the Bulgarian border, take on Bulgarian nationalities and climb aboard the EU gravy train.

I also note that you haven't posted a link about the human rights violations in your own country. Allow me to oblige.
(http://www.hrw.org/worldreport99/europe/macedonia.html)

"Macedonia’s ethnic communities—Albanians, Turks, Roma, and Bulgarians, among others—were especially susceptible to abuse. But violations cut across ethnic lines: all ethnic groups in Macedonia suffered violence at the hands of the police, as well asprocedural violations, almost always with no recourse through the courts. The common characteristic among victims, rather than ethnicity, was usually the person’s oppositional political activity or low social-economic status."

How much longer do you think Albanians are going to put up with this before they Kosovise your tiny country?

"NATO will show that it is intent on enlarging and will stress the right to protect the territorial integrity of small countries. In that way, Moscow will understand the West’s decisiveness when it comes to ‘frozen conflicts’, whether in Georgia, Macedonia or Kosovo"

Does anyone see a fallacy? What about violating the territorial integrity of Serbia?

Ypnos,

NATO countries but especially the US are getting tired of Greece's childish grandposturing with a small neighbor. Why are you not doing it with Turkey?
What was your NATO contribution anyway in the last 10-20 years? If I recall correctly absolutely nothing.
In 1999 you did nothing but sabotage. You anti-Americanism is close to that of Iran. I think the US was too patient with you for too long and should have a serious discussion with you.

Ataman,

I am not surprised that as a Russian you continue to polemize against NATO or any potential new member. NATO for you represents the only obstacle to redistribute Europe. But you can not dreem of a second Yalta anymore.
And Macedonia spending billions on new SAABs? Come on! You know very well that that poor country can not afford it. So why resort to polemic? In case of Macedonia I am sure that the US would help out with some needed hardware.

Of course the IHT would support the fyromians. It serves the plans of the americans as always.
The funny thing is that they still try to keep their readers in the dark by posting stupid comments like this:
"Today’s International Herald Tribune also draws parallels between the dispute between Macedonia and Greece and that of Georgia and Russia.

“Macedonia must be given an invitation to join NATO immediately"
Why exactly fyrom must join "immediately"? What is the rush? What would the danger be for the region if they dont join today and they join tommorow? Either way, most of the balkan countries are in or in their way to join nato. So whats the rush? Maybe it is to alert their readers, to make them feel a kind of danger for world peace if fyrom doesnt join, in connection to the events in Ossetia?

The answer comes right after:
"which will send a decisive message to Moscow, ...//... and will stress the right to protect the territorial integrity of small countries,”
So yes, for the (usually ignorant of geopolitics and even geography) american readers, the IHT must create a crisis in the balkans, to combine it with the Ossetian crisis and so to stress the importance of a front against the bad Russians in these "dangerous" times.

But they dont stop there:
“In that way, Moscow will understand the West’s decisiveness when it comes to ‘frozen conflicts’, whether in Georgia, Macedonia or Kosovo"
So now Fyrom and Kossovo are suddenly "frozen conflicts"??
Since when? What is the conflict between Greece and fyrom? There is a name dispute, but in no case a "frozen conflict". Its not the same with Serbia and Kossovo. This is a "frozen conflict" since there is territorial dispute in the middle of this. Unless the IHT is informing us that fyrom actually HAS territorial aspirations against Greece, so yes, that would be a "frozen conflict", although the term is used to be used for the ex-USSR democracies and their disputes. Unless we Greece were also an ex soviet republic and we didnt know it.

But they also have to inform their ignorant readers that:
"(in Kossovo's case) Russia supports Serbia which is against the newly-proclaimed state’s independence".
So there you have your whole story my dear sheep readers. Russia is the bad gangster that supports the ones in denial (Serbia) and wants to punish those that go against them (Georgia).
Even the way those countries are mentioned in the article, (Georgia, fyrom, Kossovo, but not the other side of the "conflict") is pointing to the direction of which names the IHT readers should keep in mind.
"These are our people, you dont need to know the other parties, they are the bad guys."

My conclusion is:
IHT is not a newspaper to be taken seriously outside the usa. It is state subjective and so not credible.

Ataman,

Lately - just like today - B92 apparently censured my comment to you. It looks like you are an "intouchable" in the eyes of B92. You opinions are sacrosanct. I will not make any attempt in the future to give my opposing views because by getting automatically cencured I am just losing my time.

Nikitas,

The problem for you and Greeks in general is that those are the readers in Europe, who decide if IHT is serious or not. And those readers at your great chagrin like the paper and get influenced by it a lot.
Also as I see you are in darkness about IHT. It is not avalaible in the US. It is for people OUTSIDE the US.
Sorry for having bursted your bubble with this revelation.

Rice's comments epitomise the failures of US
foreign policy all over the world.Bogged down in Iraq,beaten by the Mullahs in
Afganistan and trying to save face with Iran these are
the legacies of the Bush administration.

Joe - as a pro-american albanian-i am no surprised by
your comments on Greece.It is not Greece but NATO that has violated its treaty.Article 5 says force can only be used for self-defence.Therefore,all the operations that NATO has or still is involved are illegal.BTW if the French and
the Germans have their way NATO will be history in the next few years.

@8 Joe
"And those readers at your great chagrin like the paper and get influenced by it a lot."
I fail to see my "great chagrin", since the IHT is one of the lowest selling papers in Europe, thus one of the lowest influencial papers, as it the right way to be.

"Also as I see you are in darkness about IHT. It is not avalaible in the US. It is for people OUTSIDE the US.
Sorry for having bursted your bubble with this revelation."

Actually my bubble is up and strong. The IHT is a paper published by the NY Times, a daughter company of it. And it actually is sold INSIDE the usa where ofcourse sells almost nothing, but the attitude is exactly the same. An american state propaganda material.
Wooooo I feel my bubble is going sky high :)

@9
"The oppression by the Greek state of Ethnic Macedonians, Greek ...//...Trial: Government stifles dissent on Macedonia."
So you base everything on 2 reports from an organisation that is financially aided from Soros (a known anti-Greek among others) that are dated 15 years ago and are based on individual "testimonies"????
Ok, you are credible :)

"Greece is acting extremely immature and insecure when putting down at every opportunity, what would otherwise be a friendly neighbor."
Greece is acting immature, when it is that Gruevski has evidently revealed to the whole world that his dream was to be a post office employe, with all those letters he is sending left and right?
And I also fail to see the "friendly neighbor" when they burn Greek flags, portait karamanlis wearing an SS uniform, defacing Greek Tourism posters in Rome, Italy in a clearly Greek exhibition, defacing the Greek flag with a swastica, stating by officials that Thessaloniki is their capital, want me to continue?

"The bile-spitting of ultra-nationalists like Nikitas definitely doesn't help."
And all of the above help?

Look, you have a problem. A serious one. Ask that boy in the post office to either be serious or move out if you want fyrom to get in any kind of international organisation. You are not "macedonians", you are never going to be and start living with it. Want to progress? Be constructive. Want to dissolve? Keep on doing what you are doing. In a few years you will be either albanian or Bulgarian if you keep up like this, and then it will be you to blame for the new nationalistic sparks in the Balkans.
Think about it and then try and think again if I am tha ultra-nationalist or you (the fyromians) are the ones jeopardising stability in the region.

Joe

“NATO countries but especially the US are getting tired of Greece's childish grandposturing with a small neighbor.”

Who exactly is this “the US” you refer to? Their government? Last I heard, relations weren’t too bad. They’ll only get better when Obama is voted in as he has stated he’s going to take sides on the naming issue and it’ll be Greece’s side. Oh and “grandposturing” isn’t a word.

“Why are you not doing it with Turkey?”

Doing what? Are you under the impression that we’re scared of Turkey? Their economy is so fragile right now that if their army ventured outside their borders, the supply line wouldn’t last a week.

“What was your NATO contribution anyway in the last 10-20 years?”

Plenty, read up on it. The answers will disappoint the bloodthirsty ones though, as it was all humanitarian. Not all NATO contributions come in the form of bullets and bombs.

“In 1999 you did nothing but sabotage.”

Sabotage whom? The KLA war criminals? The bombing of Serbian schools and hospitals? If by sabotage you mean a conscientious choice to _not_ take the American line and bomb our allies, brothers and sisters then yes and proud of it.

“You anti-Americanism is close to that of Iran. I think the US was too patient with you for too long and should have a serious discussion with you.”

And who cares what you think? What are the Americans going to do? Bomb a NATO ally? And for what? To appease some Albanians in a backwater country? Get real – every single US administration has made it clear to you people. “Do not expect the US to turn its back on an old and traditional ally.”