Jeremić takes draft ICJ resolution to New York

> Jeremić said that following his visit to Malaysia and Singapore, the Malaysian authorities had decided to freeze the process of recognition of Kosovo’s unilaterally declared independence...

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the same 'Malaysia' that the K-albanian's were saying had recognised their 'pseudo-state'.

Now I'd call that a reversal.

> and that the Singapore leadership had confirmed that they would support Serbia’s initiative before the UN General Assembly, and that this state had no intention of recognizing Kosovo’s independence.

Now compare this with K-albanian 'diplomatic efforts':

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/comment/12350/

Well done Mr Jeremic - keep it up.

Jeremic has my full support.

But, DD, the issue clearly hasn't been resolved, has it? And does your concern for the Serbian public purse mean that you acknowledge your province's proper status as part of Serbia? Or are you just getting a bit rattled?

DD,

Russia is Serbia's oldest ally. We're talking hundreds and hundreds of years of relationship and friendship.

Because Albanians don't have this with any ther country or nation, and never have, nor ever will, you can't possibly imagine anyone else could have a such relationship.
But they can.

And why are you worried about Serbian taxpayers and where their money goes? Serbia is taking this issue to the Interntional Court, and the fact that WEstern politicians are so discontent and opposed to this move, proves this is a correct one.

If this is pointless, then why worry about it? Why even pay attention to it?

Oh...thats right.

Ahmet - Let's reflect on how things stand:

Both sides need to get 96 nations on board to (a) in the case of Kosovo have their UDI recognised; or (b) in the case of Serbia have the legal implications of the UDI reviewed.

If you were a nation, which do you think it would be easier to support? The pet project of the 'West' which is very legally dubious; or the review called by a recognised sovereign nation which wishes to go through all the proper channels in order to protect its own boundaries?

Do you think that the idea of allowing self-determination by provinces is more attractive to the majority of UN members than the protection of legally recognised borders? I don't think so.

Perhaps countries could seek the opinion of the ICJ BEFORE recognising or not. That would be the logical thing to do if there wasn't so much strong-arming going on.

By the way, a very interesting article by John Pilger in The New Statesman today about how this situation came about in the first place: http://www.newstatesman.com/europe/2008/08/pilger-kosovo-war-nato-serbs

Good Morning Mr. Jeremic,

Did you hear Mr. Lavrov today saying "Forget Gerogia's integrity". At the international level that means "Forget Serbia's integrity".

So having heard such comments from Serbia's best ally, means that all Serbia's ICJ fas is for nothing.

However, I forgot that Serbian hypocratical rhetoric sounds interesting to listen, and may convince some, such as Belarussia and North Korea.

Hypocracy at its best. (it is intersting to see the developments)

WEll done Wolf. It is imperative that the Serbian Govt go to the ICJ. This "wave of recognitions" has dwindled to a trickle and will pretty much stop. Maybe Guatamela may recognize but that's abot it. Or maybe they won't because they hate Belizians? haha. International Law is on Serbia's side and Serbia has done everything sensibly in the last 8 years. Thanks for your concern Ahmet but Serbian taxpayers cant feed the Kosovo ALbanians any longer so we must spend our money on something.

I think that Columbia and Belize have answered to Jeremic's idea of ICJ. If he needs more answers he will probably get them soon. Recognition is going according to plan, while Serbia is wasting all of it's bullets. ICJ was part of Serbian action plan that has badly failed:
Serbian Secret :-) plan contained initiatives like:
Economic Embargo
Recall of Ambassadors …
which are forgotten and used as bad examples.

So, GO GO Jeremic even though there are no concrete results. This can happen only in Serbia and Kosovo. No results but still in the cabinet

heyhey:
> Peter, don't know if anyone made that claim or not I am sure someone, somewhere may have...

Well actually, it was Sejdiu's office that made the claim back on the 20th February. Here's the link - headline reads 'Malaysia recognises independence of Kosovo':

http://www.president-ksgov.net/?id=5,67,67,67,a,651

> ...but it is not listed as an official country that has recognized Kosovo. As a matter of fact on April 24th the govt of Malaysia said they were in no hurry to consider the matter and wanted to see what developments may transpire.

Presume you got this from wikipedia's webpage 'International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence

Am well aware there was a Malay news report disputing recognition - mentioned it on the day in question on this website. But up until 26th April, Malaysia Was listed as a recognising country - primarily due to Sejdiu's misleading report above - check the 'discussion' section of the wikipedia website.

As for Mr Jeremic's recent accomplishments, Malaysia has gone from:

(1a): A country that has recognised independence - pristina's excuse for the bungle was that the Malay liason office there told them so (& who am I to disagree;), to

(1b): a country that 'welcomes' independence - the actual content of the diplomatic letter on 20/2/08 that sparked this whole thing off, to

(2): a country that is 'not in a hurry' to recognise - malay news report on 24/4/08, to

(3): a country that has 'frozen' recognition - Jeremic's statement on the outcome of talks in Malaysia.

Repeating.. I would indeed call this a reversal - all thanks to Mr 'frequent flyer' Jeremic.

Good job bub.


EUFederalist:
> Malaysia never recognized as noted above.

Didn't say they did. I said:
K-albanians (Sejdiu) said Malaysia recognised.

Preventing people from joining international organisations? Simple solution - accept autonomy. Personally oh 'EUFederalist', wouldn't care to be in the EU (if I had a choice) anyway.


Olf:
> I think that Columbia and Belize have answered to Jeremic's idea of ICJ. ... Recognition is going according to plan..

Well let's see.. Colombia & Belize - 2 countries in 2 months. Wasn't the plan 100 recognitions by September?

Somehow I don't think you'll get there - once again, thank you Mr Jeremic.


Freeman:
Hard to see that 'beacon of freedom' in amongst all the other ones (Corruption, Trafficking, Smuggling, Unemployment, Poverty etc etc etc).


Ahmet Isufi:
US military aircraft? You mean the transport sitting on the tarmac at Tbilisi? Oh dear.
Stopping US navel wessels? Why on earth would they? Only way I can see this happening is if US tries to come in force (ie: a carrier group), & even Bush isn't that stupid.


miri:
> If NATO is not intervening in Georgia, that's purely for political reasons
You appear to have an over-inflated idea of the ability of US/NATO to project power into Georgia.

If it truly came down to a military contest (& you better hope it never does), the 'west' would have an extremely hard time in the caucauses - even without the commitments in Iraq etc. But given the involvement in the middle-east, it's next to impossible.

The 'only cards' the US can play there are diplomatic, & even those cards are very weak.


Filip:
> and Mr Mansor denied that Malazya had frosen the process of the recognition of Kosova.

If you're relying on Mansor as a 'source' - good luck.

He was the one that told Sejdiu back in February that Malaysia had recognised UDI :))


PRN:
Ahh... you & your recommendations are back!
That's nice.


liburni:
> Serbia has already used military means to resolve a political problem
Actually, it was Jugoslavia then.

> You cant turn back time, but you can look forward and learn from your mistakes and prevent the loss of Vojvodina or Sandjak in the future.

And just as the name has changed, so has the country. As for the UDI, until you realise that real peace can only come with compromise, you will never have it.

If the goals is to slow down recognition process by take the matter with ICJ, then he(Jeremic) is wasting a lot of taxpayers money. At all times I thought his intention was to reverse the recognition.
What a joker!!!

I already tried once to post this- but was censured by B92

I am very happy if ICJ pronounces one the Kosova’s declaration of independence. Thought, ICJ should not limit her judgment only in pure technical-juridical issue. For two reasons: 1. it will end in the dilemma of sovereignty and self-determination right- both recognised by the international law and 2. it will not have a comprehensive view on eh conflict.

ICJ should above all discuss and base her judgment on the much deeper and broader historical, economical and social factors that brought to the declaration of independence. That is it has to address questions of:

1. How in the first place Kosova ended up in Yugo/Serbia- what was the positions of the great powers after the WW 1? Why Kosova’s interest was not represented in none of the international conferences, London’s or Berlin’s? What wanted to say President W. Wilson in his letter to the British PM David Lloyd George when he was expressing his regret that non of participants addressed the issue under the perspective of the national interest of the Albanians??

2. it will have to address the question of why the Bojan accord between Albania and Yugo/Serbia who was foreseeing that Kosova in referendum will declare if it wants to be part of Yugo/Serbia or Albania was never honoured by Yugo/Serbia?

3. it will have to answer why the public investments in Kosova were significantly lower than in any other part of Yugo/Serbia. Why the infrastructure and the development of Kosova is significantly smaller than any part of Yugo/Serbia? How it was possible that the state Ygo/Serbia to 3 million Albanians ensured higher education in only one university and only in 1976.

4. it will have to answer why after only 13 years the fragile and limited self-governance of Kosova was brought to end with force and pressures?

5. and the last it will have to answer why a state organised ethnic cleansing was made in 1999 and 800 thousand people were kicked out form their homes and more IMPORNATNTLY why their IDs and other PERSONAL DOCUMENTS WERE DESTROYED IN THE BORDER BY THE SERBIAN POLICE- so they could never make their way back home and claim their land, maybe??

It is not that a man just wakes up and declares independence and than in a week time 99% of the “naïve” democracies of the world recognise this declaration of independence.

The ICJ will put shame to the so called great power of that time that arbitrarily cut Kosova and other lands form Albania.

The so called cold war only ‘froze’ conflicts of this type of arbitrary and undemocratic decisions- that in long terms are unsustainable. Albanians and especially K-Albanians will never give up of their land- this was historically proven- we waited and worked patiently since WW1 and now we are seeing the fruits of the sacrifices of many generations. The freedom has no price and K-Albanians will not spear nothing to preserve it now that they have it.

Mr. Jeremic...stop waisting public funds on issues that have been resolved. There is no going back my friend...sooner you accept this, sooner everything will fall into place and people will start living a prosperous life. BTW, now we all know that Russia's support for Serbia was only a pretext to invade and tear up Georgia.

I suppose Jeremic can relax a little knowing that if Russia help Serbia to take Kosovo back, NATO will not be able to do anything, so I guess he shouldn't worry so much about this case.
(Peter Sudyka, 14 August 2008 13:33)
Actually Peter, is the other way around.
Georgia is in Russian sphere but Serbia and Kosova are out of Russia's reach.NATO is Kosova and Kosova is NATO. Right now Serbia is a lonely child without any true friends.
By the way haven't you seen US Military aircraft flying goods to Georgia and +naval ships will sail in few days in Georgian ports. I like to see Russian navy try to stop US navy ships docking in Georgian ports.
I am suprised b92 did not report this news, which is all over western media, such as; bbc, cnn, etc...

Ahmet Isufi and miri

It was just sarcasm to emphasize NATO's lack of action when it came to this Georgia issue, that's all, I was not being serious here. I know Russia would not invade Kosovo for Serbia's sake, I am not some kind of fool, hehe.

miri

I just thought I should correct you, Russia's military spending cannot only be 9 billion dollars. Poland alone spends almost 11 billion dollars on its military, I refuse to believe that we spend more on our military than an army of over a million active troops, almost two million reservists, over 20 000 tanks and over 2 000 aircraft, not to mention over 15 000 nuclear weapons. You must have misread something.

Obviously Russia in a one on one would not be able to match NATO for sheer size and firepower, but rest assured if NATO and Russia went against each other, NATO would lose thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of troops, and over something as insignificant as South Ossetia or Kosovo, it would not be worth it, that's why I hope that both powers (Russia and America), stick to their own spheres of influence and not push into others and behave with responsibility, which I am sorry, but how Russia handled Georgia and how America handled Serbia, is of an extremely poor standard with regards to maintaining cordial and peaceful relations with one another, I am sure you will agree with me here.

I am trying to figure out what Jeremic is trying to do by asking support for an "interpretation" of ICJ regarding Kosova's unilateral independence.
Kosova did not declare the independece for the sake of it. It has been a long and painful process which ended up with Ahtisari Plan. The truth is that Kosovar Albanians and Serbs would have never agree when it came "the Status". That is the REALITY. The Serbia argument that "Let's talk for decade/centuries" it means nothing just demagogy. The status quo was unacceptable for more than two million people who deserved to know about their future after all their history have been through. One question for the Serbian panel. Will Serbia accept the Court interpretation should it decide in favour UDI? Would Serbia recognise Kosova's independence in this condition? Or will Serbia say again and again that ICJ decision is made under USA and some EU members pressure and as such is unacceptable to Serbia?

“The conflict in the Caucusus has shown the dangers of the militaristic approach to problem solving,” Jeremić said, adding that “Serbia’s approach will be different, based on legal grounds and peaceful, which means seeking the opinion of the ICJ.”

Mr Jeremic, Serbias chance for peacful resolution has come and gone. Serbia has already used military means to resolve a political problem and it has fialed, and not that it has failed, it wants a chance at a peacful resolution. You cant turn back time, but you can look forward and learn from your mistakes and prevent the loss of Vojvodina or Sandjak in the future.

"I suppose Jeremic can relax a little knowing that if Russia help Serbia to take Kosovo back, NATO will not be able to do anything, so I guess he shouldn't worry so much about this case"

Are you sure Mr. Sudyka?
I would have thought is the other way around, wouldn't you? Sure enough Georgia might be under Russia's sphere of influence for thousands of different reasons, but wasn't NATO that intervened in Kosova and Russia just sat and watched and did nothing?
By the way if you ever meant this in the military terms, US military budget is 500bn dollars and Russia's budget is only 9bn, the ninth in the worls, with Britain the second country with the largest military budget. You can get a picture of what is NATO's power over Russia's. If NATO is not intervening in Georgia, that's purely for political reasons, but don't fool yourself that the same would happen if Russia was to invade Kosova.

Someone should take the srbian diplomats an bring them to the Republic of Kosovo to see how we the people of the R/Kosovo live freely, happy, without their pro-communist, pro-socialist, pro-pupin dictatorship. Kosovo has chosen a road of Democracy, Freedom of speech and happiness, so with all this said I hope that you finally understand that the Republic of Kosovo is the beacon of FREEDOM in the balkans.

miri
Russia doesn't have to invade Kosova , the US-Russia relations are very fragile at the moment , so if the war brakes out betveen NATO and Russia then Serbia might invade Kosova

Mr. Sudyka,
I probably miss quoted the numbers but, besides the point, I too believe that NATO and Russia would never engage in a conflict with each other, unless, their charter/constitution would make a call to do so.
The fact that many fail to read is that for Russia the red line is somewhere in Georgia and not Kosova, while for NATO is somewhere in Kosova and not Georgia. Both these assumptions have been proven correct for the former, the recent attack on Georgia and the later the attack on Serbia a decade earlier.

As far as parallelism of Serbia and Georgia goes,
you better look at some facts.

First, an ethnic cleansing took place in Kosova where a million of its inhabitants were driven by force and 10K dead. Nothing of the like happened in South Ossetia. On the contrary there were Georgians that were expelled from those two regions during early nineties.

Second, Kosova was simply the last piece of Yugoslav puzzle that was being snatch away. The fact that Kosova didn't enjoy Republic status in Yugoslavia doesn't change a thing. NATO intervention was above all due to the atrocities committed by Serb forces elsewhere, in Bosnia, and Croatia. The west simply stood by its promise not to let these atrocities happen again.

Third, Serb forces were well into Kosova when NATO bombing started. Negotiations with Milosevic lasted for months(Rambuille etc.) before an action was taken. Milosevic was warned several times but he thought it was a bluff.
In case of Georgia, Russia responded with an excessive force for which was no justification. Given the latest comments of Lavrov about Georgia’s territorial integrity it is clear that Russia took the opportunity to realize its long lasting goal of occupying these two provinces and give Georgia a good lesson on its flirt with the West.

The bottom line?
Kosova will continue to be independent despite of Russia's game. Georgia would probably never get those two provinces back, unless a regime that is fully pro Russian is established in Georgia. Nevertheless this conflict is the worst nightmare for Serbian nationalists since uncovers the emptiness of Russia’s “principled stance of protecting the int. law”.

Peter, don't know if anyone made that claim or not I am sure someone, somewhere may have but it is not listed as an official country that has recognized Kosovo. As a matter of fact on April 24th the govt of Malaysia said they were in no hurry to consider the matter and wanted to see what developments may transpire. So in other words he accomplished nothing other than a few days vacation. Because they still have not ruled out the possibility of a future recognition.

Today 14 of august president of The republic of Kosova, had q meeting with the head of the Malaizian office in Kosava, Mr Mustafa Mansor and Mr Mansor denied that Malazya had frosen the process of the recognition of Kosova. This shows tha Jeremic is continuing to missinform his serbian citizens with one more untruth.He did not support either the soveregnity of Georgia when Russia atached this country and by that silence he is showing dobbel standards a well.

I just have read that Obrad Kesic has criticised his government with the same arguments with which I have tried to show the difficulties for the Serbian government, caused by the handling of the Russians in the Ossetian-question.

By the way:
In another article with the remarks of the Russian ambassador I noticed some sentences that are familiar from 1999 and NATO's decision for the intervention against Serbia. On some parts just fill in Serbia(n) for Georgia(n).

I suppose Jeremic can relax a little knowing that if Russia help Serbia to take Kosovo back, NATO will not be able to do anything, so I guess he shouldn't worry so much about this case.

Malaysia never recognized as noted above.

Also, does anyone else think that preventing people from living in our globalized world (like attempting to stop them joining international organizations) is a violation of human rights?

"I suppose Jeremic can relax a little knowing that if Russia help Serbia to take Kosovo back, NATO will not be able to do anything, so I guess he shouldn't worry so much about this case"

Russia would have to go through Poland before reaching Serbia and Kosovo.

I think PRN that you are right: a new problem for the Serbian ICJ-initiative has risen by the way their alley Russia is handling the Georgian case.
Though I have the opinion that it is a failure to say that the situation of Kosova and that of South-Ossetia lay on the same level, the question of the propagated 'defense of the integrity of the country' in the future certainly has become more complicated for the Serbian government.
Their firm supporter in the UNSC is violating them-self the integrity of a nation: Georgia. Of course the Serbian government is aware of that and hasitates to take a stance on the Ossetian issue.
Pro Georgian integrity means being a critic of the Russian alley. Accepting the Russian actions means accepting Kosova's independence. Of course "Kosova's Western alleys" have the same problem.
The difference is that Serbia would like to profit from good relations with "Kosova's Western alleys" too and the Georgians know what it means to be under the paw of the Russian bear. That's why in the NATO especially the former East-European countries want to have Russia stopped, if necessary by force.
Under this new situation I think that Serbia's plea for the ICJ will not have a chance. It becomes time for Jeremic to go to Putin to demand an immediate halt of the agression against Georgia, otherwise all his efforts to convince the nations of the world of Serbia's legal rights are in vain. That is where friends are for!!

Jan Andersen, DK:
Amusing analogy. Only problem is that it is all based on a false premise.

If we all lived in an ideal world, then your 'nose' principle would be fine - as indeed would your ideal on the whole concept of a world without borders. But such is not the case now, nor will it ever be unless human nature undergoes a radical overhaul.

Question is what happens when 'noses touch'. Until & if everyone turns into an 'eskimo', some 'touches' will become 'bumps', & some of those 'bumps' will become 'shoves' etc.

> do you really think that is a principle that we need to compromise on?
Extending your analogy even further, without compromise, All 'touches' will become 'bumps', rather than just some.

Repeating.. in the case of Kosovo as with any other conflict, real peace will only come with compromise.


EA:
You've already asked these questions & been answered. Rather than continuing in that vein, why not debate the points raised?

Play 'follow the links' & start with this one (post #13):

http://xs4.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=52291


ps: re. the broken link in post #23 above, will try again. In the event it still fails to translate properly (as I suspect it might), the following procedure will get you to the right place:

1. select the text that follows '[link]' & copy it (ctrl-c).
2. click on '[link]'.
3. after the page loads, position the cursor at the end of the text in the address bar & paste the selected text (ctrl-v).
4. press .

http://www.president-ksgov.net/?id=5,67,67,67,a,651

also 100 ICJs wont help you because no country must respect ICJ court its just waste of time.

"Russia doesn't have to invade Kosova , the US-Russia relations are very fragile at the moment , so if the war brakes out betveen NATO and Russia then Serbia might invade Kosova"

Is that your only hope?
Well,then good luck with that.

@ ben - Excellent post about the things the ICJ should consider.

On 14 August 2008 19:10, peter, sydney, wrote:

"As for the UDI, until you realise that real peace can only come with compromise, you will never have it."

I don't see the need for any compromising as long as everyone agree on a very simple principle: "That your rights end where my nose begin". And of course the other way around: That my rights end where your nose begin. If everyone could agree to such a simple principle there would be peace everywhere.

In practical terms, we would need to extend the concept to noses to include a lot more. Like things that I own. E.g. you will have no right to sit in my front lawn because it is part of my "nose", and you would have no right to steal my car.

Does this all sound fair?

If so, it should come as no surprise that I what to extend the "nose" even further. If me and my neighbour decides that we will not allow anyone but our own families to sit on our front lawns, would not that be a reasonable extension of where noses and rights ends?

And if a whole city decided that only people that actually owned a house, an apartment or had a contract for a rented apartment in that city were allowed to enter, would that not also be fair? If the people actually owned the land city was built on, should they not be allowed to decide who could, and who could not enter?

If so, why should 2, 3, 5, 10 cities, a whole region not be allowed to decide who could enter, and who could not? In effect, declaring independence from the surrounding area.

Is that not the logical extension of "your rights ends where my nose begin"? Or do you really think that is a principle that we need to compromise on?
--

If you ask me Kosovo would be better off economically as part of Serbia than independant. They can't live off Serbia's prosperity forever instead of actually working for a living, heck they've been doing it for like 30 years...why stop now?

I've come to understand that nothing is done without a good degree of planning. Russia and the United States have seen their roles within the world marginalized every since that iron curtain came down. It serves their interests quite well to re-ignite this east-west rivalry. For starters, their military programs and defense contractors will get a big boost. Secondly, countries such as Poland, Serbia, Croatia, etc. will be forced to take sides. The problem countries will be those that want alliances with either Russia or the United States, but fall out of their spheres of influence (for example, Serbia will be a problem because it falls in the wests sphere of influence, Georgia for Russia). But, at the end of the day, Russia and the US will get exactly what they wanted... the old cold war back. And the world, once again, will have to rely on them for security and peace. Damn those guys are smart!

Mr. Jeremic...stop waisting public funds on issues that have been resolved. There is no going back my friend...sooner you accept this, sooner everything will fall into place and people will start living a prosperous life. BTW, now we all know that Russia's support for Serbia was only a pretext to invade and tear up Georgia.

Someone should take the srbian diplomats an bring them to the Republic of Kosovo to see how we the people of the R/Kosovo live freely, happy, without their pro-communist, pro-socialist, pro-pupin dictatorship. Kosovo has chosen a road of Democracy, Freedom of speech and happiness, so with all this said I hope that you finally understand that the Republic of Kosovo is the beacon of FREEDOM in the balkans.

If the goals is to slow down recognition process by take the matter with ICJ, then he(Jeremic) is wasting a lot of taxpayers money. At all times I thought his intention was to reverse the recognition.
What a joker!!!

I suppose Jeremic can relax a little knowing that if Russia help Serbia to take Kosovo back, NATO will not be able to do anything, so I guess he shouldn't worry so much about this case.
(Peter Sudyka, 14 August 2008 13:33)
Actually Peter, is the other way around.
Georgia is in Russian sphere but Serbia and Kosova are out of Russia's reach.NATO is Kosova and Kosova is NATO. Right now Serbia is a lonely child without any true friends.
By the way haven't you seen US Military aircraft flying goods to Georgia and +naval ships will sail in few days in Georgian ports. I like to see Russian navy try to stop US navy ships docking in Georgian ports.
I am suprised b92 did not report this news, which is all over western media, such as; bbc, cnn, etc...

Peter, don't know if anyone made that claim or not I am sure someone, somewhere may have but it is not listed as an official country that has recognized Kosovo. As a matter of fact on April 24th the govt of Malaysia said they were in no hurry to consider the matter and wanted to see what developments may transpire. So in other words he accomplished nothing other than a few days vacation. Because they still have not ruled out the possibility of a future recognition.

I think that Columbia and Belize have answered to Jeremic's idea of ICJ. If he needs more answers he will probably get them soon. Recognition is going according to plan, while Serbia is wasting all of it's bullets. ICJ was part of Serbian action plan that has badly failed:
Serbian Secret :-) plan contained initiatives like:
Economic Embargo
Recall of Ambassadors …
which are forgotten and used as bad examples.

So, GO GO Jeremic even though there are no concrete results. This can happen only in Serbia and Kosovo. No results but still in the cabinet

Today 14 of august president of The republic of Kosova, had q meeting with the head of the Malaizian office in Kosava, Mr Mustafa Mansor and Mr Mansor denied that Malazya had frosen the process of the recognition of Kosova. This shows tha Jeremic is continuing to missinform his serbian citizens with one more untruth.He did not support either the soveregnity of Georgia when Russia atached this country and by that silence he is showing dobbel standards a well.

also 100 ICJs wont help you because no country must respect ICJ court its just waste of time.

Good Morning Mr. Jeremic,

Did you hear Mr. Lavrov today saying "Forget Gerogia's integrity". At the international level that means "Forget Serbia's integrity".

So having heard such comments from Serbia's best ally, means that all Serbia's ICJ fas is for nothing.

However, I forgot that Serbian hypocratical rhetoric sounds interesting to listen, and may convince some, such as Belarussia and North Korea.

Hypocracy at its best. (it is intersting to see the developments)

“The conflict in the Caucusus has shown the dangers of the militaristic approach to problem solving,” Jeremić said, adding that “Serbia’s approach will be different, based on legal grounds and peaceful, which means seeking the opinion of the ICJ.”

Mr Jeremic, Serbias chance for peacful resolution has come and gone. Serbia has already used military means to resolve a political problem and it has fialed, and not that it has failed, it wants a chance at a peacful resolution. You cant turn back time, but you can look forward and learn from your mistakes and prevent the loss of Vojvodina or Sandjak in the future.

I suppose Jeremic can relax a little knowing that if Russia help Serbia to take Kosovo back, NATO will not be able to do anything, so I guess he shouldn't worry so much about this case.

"I suppose Jeremic can relax a little knowing that if Russia help Serbia to take Kosovo back, NATO will not be able to do anything, so I guess he shouldn't worry so much about this case"

Are you sure Mr. Sudyka?
I would have thought is the other way around, wouldn't you? Sure enough Georgia might be under Russia's sphere of influence for thousands of different reasons, but wasn't NATO that intervened in Kosova and Russia just sat and watched and did nothing?
By the way if you ever meant this in the military terms, US military budget is 500bn dollars and Russia's budget is only 9bn, the ninth in the worls, with Britain the second country with the largest military budget. You can get a picture of what is NATO's power over Russia's. If NATO is not intervening in Georgia, that's purely for political reasons, but don't fool yourself that the same would happen if Russia was to invade Kosova.

I already tried once to post this- but was censured by B92

I am very happy if ICJ pronounces one the Kosova’s declaration of independence. Thought, ICJ should not limit her judgment only in pure technical-juridical issue. For two reasons: 1. it will end in the dilemma of sovereignty and self-determination right- both recognised by the international law and 2. it will not have a comprehensive view on eh conflict.

ICJ should above all discuss and base her judgment on the much deeper and broader historical, economical and social factors that brought to the declaration of independence. That is it has to address questions of:

1. How in the first place Kosova ended up in Yugo/Serbia- what was the positions of the great powers after the WW 1? Why Kosova’s interest was not represented in none of the international conferences, London’s or Berlin’s? What wanted to say President W. Wilson in his letter to the British PM David Lloyd George when he was expressing his regret that non of participants addressed the issue under the perspective of the national interest of the Albanians??

2. it will have to address the question of why the Bojan accord between Albania and Yugo/Serbia who was foreseeing that Kosova in referendum will declare if it wants to be part of Yugo/Serbia or Albania was never honoured by Yugo/Serbia?

3. it will have to answer why the public investments in Kosova were significantly lower than in any other part of Yugo/Serbia. Why the infrastructure and the development of Kosova is significantly smaller than any part of Yugo/Serbia? How it was possible that the state Ygo/Serbia to 3 million Albanians ensured higher education in only one university and only in 1976.

4. it will have to answer why after only 13 years the fragile and limited self-governance of Kosova was brought to end with force and pressures?

5. and the last it will have to answer why a state organised ethnic cleansing was made in 1999 and 800 thousand people were kicked out form their homes and more IMPORNATNTLY why their IDs and other PERSONAL DOCUMENTS WERE DESTROYED IN THE BORDER BY THE SERBIAN POLICE- so they could never make their way back home and claim their land, maybe??

It is not that a man just wakes up and declares independence and than in a week time 99% of the “naïve” democracies of the world recognise this declaration of independence.

The ICJ will put shame to the so called great power of that time that arbitrarily cut Kosova and other lands form Albania.

The so called cold war only ‘froze’ conflicts of this type of arbitrary and undemocratic decisions- that in long terms are unsustainable. Albanians and especially K-Albanians will never give up of their land- this was historically proven- we waited and worked patiently since WW1 and now we are seeing the fruits of the sacrifices of many generations. The freedom has no price and K-Albanians will not spear nothing to preserve it now that they have it.

Mr. Sudyka,
I probably miss quoted the numbers but, besides the point, I too believe that NATO and Russia would never engage in a conflict with each other, unless, their charter/constitution would make a call to do so.
The fact that many fail to read is that for Russia the red line is somewhere in Georgia and not Kosova, while for NATO is somewhere in Kosova and not Georgia. Both these assumptions have been proven correct for the former, the recent attack on Georgia and the later the attack on Serbia a decade earlier.

As far as parallelism of Serbia and Georgia goes,
you better look at some facts.

First, an ethnic cleansing took place in Kosova where a million of its inhabitants were driven by force and 10K dead. Nothing of the like happened in South Ossetia. On the contrary there were Georgians that were expelled from those two regions during early nineties.

Second, Kosova was simply the last piece of Yugoslav puzzle that was being snatch away. The fact that Kosova didn't enjoy Republic status in Yugoslavia doesn't change a thing. NATO intervention was above all due to the atrocities committed by Serb forces elsewhere, in Bosnia, and Croatia. The west simply stood by its promise not to let these atrocities happen again.

Third, Serb forces were well into Kosova when NATO bombing started. Negotiations with Milosevic lasted for months(Rambuille etc.) before an action was taken. Milosevic was warned several times but he thought it was a bluff.
In case of Georgia, Russia responded with an excessive force for which was no justification. Given the latest comments of Lavrov about Georgia’s territorial integrity it is clear that Russia took the opportunity to realize its long lasting goal of occupying these two provinces and give Georgia a good lesson on its flirt with the West.

The bottom line?
Kosova will continue to be independent despite of Russia's game. Georgia would probably never get those two provinces back, unless a regime that is fully pro Russian is established in Georgia. Nevertheless this conflict is the worst nightmare for Serbian nationalists since uncovers the emptiness of Russia’s “principled stance of protecting the int. law”.

I am trying to figure out what Jeremic is trying to do by asking support for an "interpretation" of ICJ regarding Kosova's unilateral independence.
Kosova did not declare the independece for the sake of it. It has been a long and painful process which ended up with Ahtisari Plan. The truth is that Kosovar Albanians and Serbs would have never agree when it came "the Status". That is the REALITY. The Serbia argument that "Let's talk for decade/centuries" it means nothing just demagogy. The status quo was unacceptable for more than two million people who deserved to know about their future after all their history have been through. One question for the Serbian panel. Will Serbia accept the Court interpretation should it decide in favour UDI? Would Serbia recognise Kosova's independence in this condition? Or will Serbia say again and again that ICJ decision is made under USA and some EU members pressure and as such is unacceptable to Serbia?

WEll done Wolf. It is imperative that the Serbian Govt go to the ICJ. This "wave of recognitions" has dwindled to a trickle and will pretty much stop. Maybe Guatamela may recognize but that's abot it. Or maybe they won't because they hate Belizians? haha. International Law is on Serbia's side and Serbia has done everything sensibly in the last 8 years. Thanks for your concern Ahmet but Serbian taxpayers cant feed the Kosovo ALbanians any longer so we must spend our money on something.

miri
Russia doesn't have to invade Kosova , the US-Russia relations are very fragile at the moment , so if the war brakes out betveen NATO and Russia then Serbia might invade Kosova

I think PRN that you are right: a new problem for the Serbian ICJ-initiative has risen by the way their alley Russia is handling the Georgian case.
Though I have the opinion that it is a failure to say that the situation of Kosova and that of South-Ossetia lay on the same level, the question of the propagated 'defense of the integrity of the country' in the future certainly has become more complicated for the Serbian government.
Their firm supporter in the UNSC is violating them-self the integrity of a nation: Georgia. Of course the Serbian government is aware of that and hasitates to take a stance on the Ossetian issue.
Pro Georgian integrity means being a critic of the Russian alley. Accepting the Russian actions means accepting Kosova's independence. Of course "Kosova's Western alleys" have the same problem.
The difference is that Serbia would like to profit from good relations with "Kosova's Western alleys" too and the Georgians know what it means to be under the paw of the Russian bear. That's why in the NATO especially the former East-European countries want to have Russia stopped, if necessary by force.
Under this new situation I think that Serbia's plea for the ICJ will not have a chance. It becomes time for Jeremic to go to Putin to demand an immediate halt of the agression against Georgia, otherwise all his efforts to convince the nations of the world of Serbia's legal rights are in vain. That is where friends are for!!

@ ben - Excellent post about the things the ICJ should consider.

On 14 August 2008 19:10, peter, sydney, wrote:

"As for the UDI, until you realise that real peace can only come with compromise, you will never have it."

I don't see the need for any compromising as long as everyone agree on a very simple principle: "That your rights end where my nose begin". And of course the other way around: That my rights end where your nose begin. If everyone could agree to such a simple principle there would be peace everywhere.

In practical terms, we would need to extend the concept to noses to include a lot more. Like things that I own. E.g. you will have no right to sit in my front lawn because it is part of my "nose", and you would have no right to steal my car.

Does this all sound fair?

If so, it should come as no surprise that I what to extend the "nose" even further. If me and my neighbour decides that we will not allow anyone but our own families to sit on our front lawns, would not that be a reasonable extension of where noses and rights ends?

And if a whole city decided that only people that actually owned a house, an apartment or had a contract for a rented apartment in that city were allowed to enter, would that not also be fair? If the people actually owned the land city was built on, should they not be allowed to decide who could, and who could not enter?

If so, why should 2, 3, 5, 10 cities, a whole region not be allowed to decide who could enter, and who could not? In effect, declaring independence from the surrounding area.

Is that not the logical extension of "your rights ends where my nose begin"? Or do you really think that is a principle that we need to compromise on?
--

Malaysia never recognized as noted above.

Also, does anyone else think that preventing people from living in our globalized world (like attempting to stop them joining international organizations) is a violation of human rights?

Jeremic has my full support.

Ahmet Isufi and miri

It was just sarcasm to emphasize NATO's lack of action when it came to this Georgia issue, that's all, I was not being serious here. I know Russia would not invade Kosovo for Serbia's sake, I am not some kind of fool, hehe.

miri

I just thought I should correct you, Russia's military spending cannot only be 9 billion dollars. Poland alone spends almost 11 billion dollars on its military, I refuse to believe that we spend more on our military than an army of over a million active troops, almost two million reservists, over 20 000 tanks and over 2 000 aircraft, not to mention over 15 000 nuclear weapons. You must have misread something.

Obviously Russia in a one on one would not be able to match NATO for sheer size and firepower, but rest assured if NATO and Russia went against each other, NATO would lose thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of troops, and over something as insignificant as South Ossetia or Kosovo, it would not be worth it, that's why I hope that both powers (Russia and America), stick to their own spheres of influence and not push into others and behave with responsibility, which I am sorry, but how Russia handled Georgia and how America handled Serbia, is of an extremely poor standard with regards to maintaining cordial and peaceful relations with one another, I am sure you will agree with me here.

heyhey:
> Peter, don't know if anyone made that claim or not I am sure someone, somewhere may have...

Well actually, it was Sejdiu's office that made the claim back on the 20th February. Here's the link - headline reads 'Malaysia recognises independence of Kosovo':

http://www.president-ksgov.net/?id=5,67,67,67,a,651

> ...but it is not listed as an official country that has recognized Kosovo. As a matter of fact on April 24th the govt of Malaysia said they were in no hurry to consider the matter and wanted to see what developments may transpire.

Presume you got this from wikipedia's webpage 'International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence

Am well aware there was a Malay news report disputing recognition - mentioned it on the day in question on this website. But up until 26th April, Malaysia Was listed as a recognising country - primarily due to Sejdiu's misleading report above - check the 'discussion' section of the wikipedia website.

As for Mr Jeremic's recent accomplishments, Malaysia has gone from:

(1a): A country that has recognised independence - pristina's excuse for the bungle was that the Malay liason office there told them so (& who am I to disagree;), to

(1b): a country that 'welcomes' independence - the actual content of the diplomatic letter on 20/2/08 that sparked this whole thing off, to

(2): a country that is 'not in a hurry' to recognise - malay news report on 24/4/08, to

(3): a country that has 'frozen' recognition - Jeremic's statement on the outcome of talks in Malaysia.

Repeating.. I would indeed call this a reversal - all thanks to Mr 'frequent flyer' Jeremic.

Good job bub.


EUFederalist:
> Malaysia never recognized as noted above.

Didn't say they did. I said:
K-albanians (Sejdiu) said Malaysia recognised.

Preventing people from joining international organisations? Simple solution - accept autonomy. Personally oh 'EUFederalist', wouldn't care to be in the EU (if I had a choice) anyway.


Olf:
> I think that Columbia and Belize have answered to Jeremic's idea of ICJ. ... Recognition is going according to plan..

Well let's see.. Colombia & Belize - 2 countries in 2 months. Wasn't the plan 100 recognitions by September?

Somehow I don't think you'll get there - once again, thank you Mr Jeremic.


Freeman:
Hard to see that 'beacon of freedom' in amongst all the other ones (Corruption, Trafficking, Smuggling, Unemployment, Poverty etc etc etc).


Ahmet Isufi:
US military aircraft? You mean the transport sitting on the tarmac at Tbilisi? Oh dear.
Stopping US navel wessels? Why on earth would they? Only way I can see this happening is if US tries to come in force (ie: a carrier group), & even Bush isn't that stupid.


miri:
> If NATO is not intervening in Georgia, that's purely for political reasons
You appear to have an over-inflated idea of the ability of US/NATO to project power into Georgia.

If it truly came down to a military contest (& you better hope it never does), the 'west' would have an extremely hard time in the caucauses - even without the commitments in Iraq etc. But given the involvement in the middle-east, it's next to impossible.

The 'only cards' the US can play there are diplomatic, & even those cards are very weak.


Filip:
> and Mr Mansor denied that Malazya had frosen the process of the recognition of Kosova.

If you're relying on Mansor as a 'source' - good luck.

He was the one that told Sejdiu back in February that Malaysia had recognised UDI :))


PRN:
Ahh... you & your recommendations are back!
That's nice.


liburni:
> Serbia has already used military means to resolve a political problem
Actually, it was Jugoslavia then.

> You cant turn back time, but you can look forward and learn from your mistakes and prevent the loss of Vojvodina or Sandjak in the future.

And just as the name has changed, so has the country. As for the UDI, until you realise that real peace can only come with compromise, you will never have it.

"Russia doesn't have to invade Kosova , the US-Russia relations are very fragile at the moment , so if the war brakes out betveen NATO and Russia then Serbia might invade Kosova"

Is that your only hope?
Well,then good luck with that.

I just have read that Obrad Kesic has criticised his government with the same arguments with which I have tried to show the difficulties for the Serbian government, caused by the handling of the Russians in the Ossetian-question.

By the way:
In another article with the remarks of the Russian ambassador I noticed some sentences that are familiar from 1999 and NATO's decision for the intervention against Serbia. On some parts just fill in Serbia(n) for Georgia(n).

"I suppose Jeremic can relax a little knowing that if Russia help Serbia to take Kosovo back, NATO will not be able to do anything, so I guess he shouldn't worry so much about this case"

Russia would have to go through Poland before reaching Serbia and Kosovo.

If you ask me Kosovo would be better off economically as part of Serbia than independant. They can't live off Serbia's prosperity forever instead of actually working for a living, heck they've been doing it for like 30 years...why stop now?

> Jeremić said that following his visit to Malaysia and Singapore, the Malaysian authorities had decided to freeze the process of recognition of Kosovo’s unilaterally declared independence...

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the same 'Malaysia' that the K-albanian's were saying had recognised their 'pseudo-state'.

Now I'd call that a reversal.

> and that the Singapore leadership had confirmed that they would support Serbia’s initiative before the UN General Assembly, and that this state had no intention of recognizing Kosovo’s independence.

Now compare this with K-albanian 'diplomatic efforts':

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/comment/12350/

Well done Mr Jeremic - keep it up.

DD,

Russia is Serbia's oldest ally. We're talking hundreds and hundreds of years of relationship and friendship.

Because Albanians don't have this with any ther country or nation, and never have, nor ever will, you can't possibly imagine anyone else could have a such relationship.
But they can.

And why are you worried about Serbian taxpayers and where their money goes? Serbia is taking this issue to the Interntional Court, and the fact that WEstern politicians are so discontent and opposed to this move, proves this is a correct one.

If this is pointless, then why worry about it? Why even pay attention to it?

Oh...thats right.

But, DD, the issue clearly hasn't been resolved, has it? And does your concern for the Serbian public purse mean that you acknowledge your province's proper status as part of Serbia? Or are you just getting a bit rattled?

Ahmet - Let's reflect on how things stand:

Both sides need to get 96 nations on board to (a) in the case of Kosovo have their UDI recognised; or (b) in the case of Serbia have the legal implications of the UDI reviewed.

If you were a nation, which do you think it would be easier to support? The pet project of the 'West' which is very legally dubious; or the review called by a recognised sovereign nation which wishes to go through all the proper channels in order to protect its own boundaries?

Do you think that the idea of allowing self-determination by provinces is more attractive to the majority of UN members than the protection of legally recognised borders? I don't think so.

Perhaps countries could seek the opinion of the ICJ BEFORE recognising or not. That would be the logical thing to do if there wasn't so much strong-arming going on.

By the way, a very interesting article by John Pilger in The New Statesman today about how this situation came about in the first place: http://www.newstatesman.com/europe/2008/08/pilger-kosovo-war-nato-serbs

I've come to understand that nothing is done without a good degree of planning. Russia and the United States have seen their roles within the world marginalized every since that iron curtain came down. It serves their interests quite well to re-ignite this east-west rivalry. For starters, their military programs and defense contractors will get a big boost. Secondly, countries such as Poland, Serbia, Croatia, etc. will be forced to take sides. The problem countries will be those that want alliances with either Russia or the United States, but fall out of their spheres of influence (for example, Serbia will be a problem because it falls in the wests sphere of influence, Georgia for Russia). But, at the end of the day, Russia and the US will get exactly what they wanted... the old cold war back. And the world, once again, will have to rely on them for security and peace. Damn those guys are smart!

Jan Andersen, DK:
Amusing analogy. Only problem is that it is all based on a false premise.

If we all lived in an ideal world, then your 'nose' principle would be fine - as indeed would your ideal on the whole concept of a world without borders. But such is not the case now, nor will it ever be unless human nature undergoes a radical overhaul.

Question is what happens when 'noses touch'. Until & if everyone turns into an 'eskimo', some 'touches' will become 'bumps', & some of those 'bumps' will become 'shoves' etc.

> do you really think that is a principle that we need to compromise on?
Extending your analogy even further, without compromise, All 'touches' will become 'bumps', rather than just some.

Repeating.. in the case of Kosovo as with any other conflict, real peace will only come with compromise.


EA:
You've already asked these questions & been answered. Rather than continuing in that vein, why not debate the points raised?

Play 'follow the links' & start with this one (post #13):

http://xs4.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=52291


ps: re. the broken link in post #23 above, will try again. In the event it still fails to translate properly (as I suspect it might), the following procedure will get you to the right place:

1. select the text that follows '[link]' & copy it (ctrl-c).
2. click on '[link]'.
3. after the page loads, position the cursor at the end of the text in the address bar & paste the selected text (ctrl-v).
4. press .

http://www.president-ksgov.net/?id=5,67,67,67,a,651