Lessons of "Georgian experience"

What a load of nonsense. Who is this clown?

Brussels - the centre of an unstable country which is about to separate into Flemish and French part, and who have still an issue deciding if the Brussels will be French or Flemish, whith country politicans having grave trouble electing government because both French and Flemish are feeling opressed and want less of the other in the government.

This, ladies and gentlemen, according to this clown, is the pinicle of all resolution to Serbia's problems.
Let us not get carried away, shall we?

Brussels dances to Washington's tune.
What happened in Gerogia indicates, on the contrary, that West will desrt you as soon as your opposition is an equaly matched or stronger than them.
It also demonstrats that Russia will do whatever the hell it pleases, and all Brussels and Washington can do is talk talk talk, since noone dares challange Russia. For good reasons too.

All Brussels is, is Washington's side kick. A cronie that employes other cronies (most which are unwilling but have little choice) to do Washingon's biddings in Europe as it commands.

This man just insults everyone's intelligence.

I think it is a total shame for a Serbian citizen, and mostly a Serbian former minister to do such a statement.

According to his logic, people in every country that want to be different, or live under different rule - should be given the right to just break the country apart without reaction!

So, should tha same happen to Spain and the Basques, letting them break Spain apart?? Should the same happen with Turkey and the Kurds, breaking Turkey apart?? Or should probably... the IRISH BREAK APART UK so they can "live freely", because they "feel different" and they have the right to live independently???

It is quite obvious that the matter of "right to self determination" and democratic principles of "a nation to live independently" is only apllied to countries that are enemies of the west or just enemies the americans!

So Albanians have the right to live "independently" and destroy the sovereighity of Serbia but S. Ossetians in Georgia are not!!

Montenegrins have the right to live "independently" and form a country but Norhern Irish in UK are not!!!

This is what "democracy" (or better hypocrisy ...) means by the west:: Give "human rights" to the internal enemies of your enemies, but deny the same "human rights" to the internal enemies of your friends!!!

Double standards for every country, related to who "we like" and who we "don't like".

Fortunately, even some western countries have started to realize this hypocrisy of the "west" - by the americans mostly.

And I am not Serb, but just from a country that is the "cradle of the Western civilization" as the nations from the West call my country. Greece that is.

Well, If this is what "western civilization" actually means, I am totally shameful for being a part - and mostly a "cradle" of such a civilization!

No Svilanovic, what this means is that the EU, who are insisting on preserving the territorial integrity of Georgia, are a bunch of American lapdogs. Why, Gorane, don't you ask yourself why they aren't consistent and don't insist on Serbia's territorial integrity? Instead it is more double standards, more anti-Serbian policy, more huff and puff and bluster from the EU.
If anything, what this shows is that Russia is willing to put the life of its soldiers on the line to protect its interests, unlike the NATO cowards who bomb civilian targets from 15,000 ft only.
What we have just witnessed, ladies and gentlemen, is the first step of the reawakening of a mighty Russia. And it's about time!!
Cheers!!

In fact it's a lesson for the Albanians ! Now they can see how helpless the West is and how easy they get rid of their puppets ! So the best place to discuss Kosovo evidently is Belgrad city after it is set free from the comprador Serbian elites.

Finally someone in Serbia realized the rationale.

To Mirek London/Prague:

"" so stop dreaming of being a part of the West.""

First of all who told you that "I am dreaming to be a part of the west"??

Contrarily I think I am neither a part of the west nor a part of the east, and I definetely don't want to be a part of the west.

Religiously I might be considered a part of the east (christian orthodox), but my culture and civilaziation is considered a part of the west. (The whole western civilaziation is totally based on Greeks and Romans - either you admit it or not, and NOT in "many" countries generally as you claim...).

But the point is that - for you probably - to be a part of the west is an "honor", while for me it a shame.

So, I don't care to be a part of the west. And I don't want so as well. Just the whole western civilization - represented by most of the western countries - want ta claim the the Greek Culture is Western Culture, the Greek Sciences are Western sciences, and the Greek country is a western country. That's why my country is one of the oldest EU and NATO members, older that Portugal, Spain or... England! (Sorry... my country became a member of the EU, because of the Cold War too??? That's funny to hear...)

But you are right, I don't consider myself "west". Most the western people (unlike you, I know you don't...) consider me west. That's why I was put in EU before England and Spain... and that's why everybody loves the Greek culture and is proud to "cosnider" it the cradle of the western culture.

(I know you don't like that, but either you like it or not, it is true.)

Mr. Svilanovic understands that after Georgia’s war which was Bush’s and Putin’s agreement (snip)
(Toni, 12 August 2008 12:45)

Toni, how much you paid for the 'shrooms? Where these the same mushrooms what Saakashvili uses daily? Can I have some, please?

“However, in so doing, Belgrade would find itself in a Catch 22: Belgrade would have to support the principle of territorial integrity, and that would lead to conflict with Moscow officials, whose support Belgrade is counting on at the UN Security Council.”

Russia has not recognized Ossetia, nor has it called for Ossetian independence. Serbia supports “more than autonomy, less than independence” in Kosovo, a solution for Ossetia I’m sure Russia would also approve of.

I’m sorry, but I don’t see any Catch 22?

"However, in so doing, Belgrade would find itself in a Catch 22: Belgrade would have to support the principle of territorial integrity, and that would lead to conflict with Moscow officials, whose support Belgrade is counting on at the UN Security Council. "

Er, no. I find it most annoying that basic, important facts are left out.

Russia has said on multiple occasions that it supports the territorial integrity of Georgia. NATO and many western countries do not support the territorial integrity of Serbia, apparently it is a 'special' and 'unique' case. The fact that the kosovo albanians are their allies OBVIOUSLY has nothing to do with it.

Might is right.

There is no Catch-22 situation.

Russia often compared Kosova’s case with that of South Ossetia, which has around 70, 000 residents. Moscow has been harshly hitting Georgian targets, where the Russian separatist province is located, with justification that Tbilisi has been conducting genocide and ethnic cleansing. This scenario was announced earlier, when the Kosova status talks were going towards failure and the Russian ‘concern’ about the precedent, as they put it, was getting stronger and stronger.
The fight for political and economic domination in the world is ruthless and does not spare anything, not even the victims of a Russian expansionist ideology. Russian authorities have been developing a denigrating towards the regime of Mikhail Sakashvil, the Georgian President, who warned the West about the possibility for the escalation of the situation.
The Russian diplomacy had not taken such steps when Serbia applied policy against Kosova Albanians. It had not reacted at all. It had even joined Belgrade and brutal regime of Slobodan Milosevic. The parallel drawn by Moscow was unmasked as it was seen that Kosova’s case was used as a pretext for fulfilment of Russian geopolitical aggressive goals. Now, the West may get convinced that any expectation to receive Russian consensus and any dose of scepticism expressed in the talks on Kosova’s status was vain and fruitless. In this aspect, there are many other factors, like the war for energy, NATO’s expansion, clashes between Russia and US.
Kosova proved it is a unique case and the Russian claims for drawing parallels with Russian territories in former-Soviet republics got burned now. Seeing the flames and victims in Georgia, we should not forget our north, Mitrovica, where a state like Russia would not hesitate to incite tensions, violence, and interethnic conflict for its own interests.

For my Albanian friends...

How is it going to feel to be known as the ones who created a future global mess for years to come? Don't believe me? Just do a Google search on Google news about Georgia and Kosovo. Then again, I know many of you will respond with "no comaprison" arguments that are both flawed and arrogant. I know, you got yours (independence, somewhat) and you don't care about anyone else who has the same beef or better(Kurds, Basques, etc..). That's the problem with you guys, NO LONG TERM THINKING and arrogance. Or maybe you guys just don't think much beyond the Balkans and Western Europe. You've opened a pandora's box and many of you are trying to damage control all over the Internet.....

Btw, you should thank B92 for allowing your voices. I just tried many Albanian sites (New Kosova and other Albanian sites) who refuse to publish dissenting arguments about how Osetia has nothing to do with "Kosova" I want to thank B92 for allowing us to discuss this in a civilized way...

laki NY:
Since you're taking 'liberties', might as well go all the way - right?

Human Rights Watch has never condemned NATO/US for those same civilian deaths ('collateral damage' using NATO's euphemisms).

HRW didn't condemn NATO/US for the direct attack on that TV station in Belgrade as much of the world's media did at the time.

HRW has never condemned the US for the estimated 1,000,000 civilian deaths in Iraq.

And HRW's 'official tally' of those same iraqi civilian deaths matches that of the Iraq body count project - which only takes into account those deaths reported in 'approved media sources' - which incidentally is also used by the US govt.

The figures HRW provides are only useful when setting a lower limit.

And that's all their figure of approx. 500 for the civilian deaths caused by NATO's bombing is - a lower limit.

Mr. Svilanovic understands that after Georgia’s war which was Bush’s and Putin’s agreement the Kosovo resolution will past Security Council. So now he is trying to avoid USA and Russia because of their deal that they made even before Independence of Kosova. No my friend the deal has been made and it will get implemented, Abkhazia and Ossetia will get their state hood based on international law because USA will not veto the resolution and Kosova will gain its international law ground because Russia will not veto the up coming resolution. So Mr. Svilanovic is very smart he knows what is going to happen after the conflict ends in Georgia.

�If you have a homogenous national minority on a territory, you cannot preserve that territory through undemocratic means,� Svilanovi� stressed.

By that logic Croatia should hand Krajina back (I'm a Krajinian, didn't want to be a Croat, and I got expelled for it "South Ossetian style").

Brussels endorsed Croatia's genocide.... they celebrate it as a public holiday and nobody cares!

What about RS in Bosnia - they aren't interested in BiH - can they have independence?

Brussels say no way.

Completely wrong Goran, the answers to these problems is still in Moscow and Washington.

Without Washington, NATO is nothing (do you think Belgium would have bombed Serbia without the US in the lead?).

Without some Russian backing, Serbia will dissapear from the maps completely.

From the article:

"Instead of seeking a peaceful solution for the problem of South Ossetia, the Georgian side chose to resort to a military method. Such unilateral use of force should be placed in the same order as other illegal unilateral steps such as the bombardment of Serbia, the invasion on Iraq, or the unilateral proclamation of the independence of Kosovo," [Russian diplomat Aleksandr] Konuzin was quoted as saying.

Let me just make one thing absolutely, 100 % clear:

Proclamations of any kind has NEVER killed people. Not even proclamations of independence.

Bormbardments and invasions are what kills people, not proclamations.

This "Georgian experience" can only be drawn up once Russia shows its endgame hand.

If Russia is only interested in forcing Georgian troops out of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia, ensuring the autonomy they had prior to Aug. 6, maintaining Russian dominance and support to these two parastates, and keeping them within Georgia, thus "maintaining Georiga's territorial integrity", then we can say that Georgia is what should have happened to Serbia in 1999, and in 2008.

If on the other hand Russia is interested in pounding Georgia into the ground, overthrowing the pro-American regime in Tiblisi, AND annexing both breakaway regions, Georigia is to Russia what Iraq is to the US, and a new phase in international relations in which might makes right is now a legitimate form of diplomacy.

It's no surprise Serbia is remaining silent on this because they don't know how far Russia is going. They can see parallels all over, but are unsure whether Russia will be just as belligerent as Washington (in which case Kosovo is now perfectly justifed as spoils of war and BG can no longer rely on Russia), or whether Russia is really working to ensure the status quo doesn't change (in which Kosovo looks even more illegal and Russia has a stronger hand to play on the international front)

Dear 'Russian',

Why on earth does the Kremlin have to cut a deal with the west in a Kosovo/Georgia swap?

Russia is being ignored in Kosovo anyway and has won hands down in Georgia because they kept their military objectives reasonable and legal. There's very little the west can do unless they prefer to buy their energy from somewhere else, Kosovo maybe?

Sure, the US and buddies can go and bomb/nuke Iran without UN sanction, but that would destroy the UN. Russian cooperation is needed on a whole host of international diplomatic issues. The west has over extended itself and is paying the price.

I wonder if Vuk Jeremic is jotting any notes down? I doubt it, but there's definitely something here that can learn.

What I am going to write maybe doesn’t relate directly to the subject matter but to clarify one piece of serbian propaganda: when NATO bombed Serbia there went thousand of thousand and hundreds of thousand of civilian killed. Serbian government purposely didn’t conduct an official tally, so it can earn victims credit on the misfortune of its own citizens.

“Human Rights Watch concludes that as few as 489 and as many as 528 Yugoslav civilians were killed in the ninety separate incidents in Operation Allied Force“

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/nato/Natbm200-01.htm

> Well, If this is what "western civilization" actually means, I am totally shameful for being a part - and mostly a "cradle" of such a civilization!
(Pavlos, 12 August 2008 15:11)

Well Pavlos, it is not, Greece is a Balkan Southeastern European country with Eastern Christianity (Orthodox church) as any other such as Serbia. Cold War is over so stop dreaming of being a part of the West.
Greece of course contributed to the creation (by other countries in Western & Central Europe many centuries later) of the 'West' in its antique period, but it was only artificially considered part of the West as such during the bipolar world (Cold War) period based on the decision by Stalin & Churchill at the end of the WWII.
So don't be ashamed of something you are not.
All the best to all good people.

On 12 August 2008 10:54, BKK wrote:

"What a load of nonsense. Who is this clown?

Brussels - the centre of an unstable country which is about to separate into Flemish and French part, and who have still an issue deciding if the Brussels will be French or Flemish, whith country politicans having grave trouble electing government because both French and Flemish are feeling opressed and want less of the other in the government."

The clown here is you BKK! Brussels, whether it is French, Flemish or Purple, is where the European Commision (the "EU government") has its seat. That the Brussel Capital Region happens to be situated in Belgium is of no consequence whatsoever. As the article said, the EU Commision is part of the solution to the crisis in and around Kosovo and Georgia.

--

On 12 August 2008 15:11, Pavlos wrote:

"According to his logic, people in every country that want to be different, or live under different rule - should be given the right to just break the country apart without reaction!"

Yes, of course. Why not?

Pavlos: "So, should tha same happen to Spain and the Basques, letting them break Spain apart??"

Yes, of course. Why not? What is the harm done by that? Do you imagine that people from Catalonia wanting to visit Basque country will be blocked and turned away at the new Basque border? What good purpose would such an action serve?

Pavlos: "Should the same happen with Turkey and the Kurds, breaking Turkey apart??"

Yes, of course. Why not? Why is this such a terrible idea?

Pavlos: "Or should probably... the IRISH BREAK APART UK so they can "live freely", because they "feel different" and they have the right to live independently???"

Yes, of course. Or not. Ireland is already an independent country :)

Pavlos: "So Albanians have the right to live "independently" and destroy the sovereighity of Serbia but S. Ossetians in Georgia are not!!"

Say who? Not me. I say Independence for all! Twice on Sundays!!!

Pavlos: "Montenegrins have the right to live "independently" and form a country but Norhern Irish in UK are not!!!"

The people living in the north-east corner of Ireland known as Northern Ireland should OF COURSE be allowed to have independence - if the people living here can agree on it (or at least can show that a majority of them desire independence, e.g. in some kind of referendum).

Why are people (and governments) so damn afraid of independence??

--

"Medvedev also said "sovereignty is based on the will of the people" and "territorial integrity can be demonstrated by the actual facts on the ground."

Serbian brothers,

Our corrupt russian leaders have cut a deal with Washington. Russians have agreed to let Kosovo go. Try to get the north asap, before the deal is announced.

Peace.

Long Live Serbia

To Mirek London/Prague:

Firstly: Again you are repeating the same things without really having the knowledge or the information - and you exposing yourslef.

When Greece became a member of the European Union (the decision was taken in 1979 and not 1981) the ONLY one that was begging was the French president to the other european countries. Of course Greece wanted very much too, but definetely was NOT begging. At that time, the whole opposition parties of Greece were screaming NOT to be a part of the EU by all means! Actually after the PASOK opposition party was elected - it was threating to leave the EU in the first years, but was convinced by France mostly to stay.

Secondly: Who said that I underestimate the culture of Balkans?? You are the one that underestimates the Greek culture and trying to put it into the same "basket" with other balkan countries.

Well, sorry to tell you but the Greek culture is in a higher level that ANY culture not only from Balkans but from the whole world.

If the majority of the today sciences is based on the practical sciences that were TOTALLY invenvted by Greeks - this makes it exceptional - not only in the balkan region but in the whole planet. And not only practical sciences but Astronomy, Philosophy, Architecture and so on...

Thridly: What do you mean "eastern countries"?? Do you categorise them - only by religion? Because if that is so, then yes we are christian orthodox and PROUD OF IT!

But if you relate them with culture... sorry to tell you, Your western culture, arts and sciences is totally based on Greek culture (the Romans simply did not invent ANY sciences actually but "borrowed the Greek ones)!

So again I say: Don't try to put Greece on the same basket with the other eastern countries. Greece today has an economy that is 20 to 30 years in front of ANY balkan or eastern european country (including serbia) no matter if it took - quite long as you say.

And Spain's nominal GDP per capita right now according to the IMF is 31,471$ while Greece's is 32,421$. That makes it considerably HIGHER and not lower as you falsely mention...

To Ben:

Hey Ben! It is obvious that you are not that aware of economy. GDP per CAPITA means how much time individually each citizen earns and NOT the economy in total. This is how the economy standard of every country is counted. Go to the official data of the IMF and see in which place Greece is and Italy... (and much MUCH lower you can also check Albania and the other "eastern" countries").

I toatly agree with Goran Svilanovic.

You cannot rule people that don't want you. It is simply raping!

Attention: we Albanians are not afraid of this principle at all, although it could be applied to us as well (see N. Kosova).

Why? Because our land was grabbed.

Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone... of course Pavlos it's a pure coincidence you post here ;))

What is so wrong in self determination??

what do you think? how we got almost 200 countries in UN today when there were only about 50 after WW2?????

It was G. Bush and neocons that made them??? ;)

And you still dear to speak about double standards. Hypocrites!

(Rote Kapelle, 12 August 2008 10:27)

You “mighty” army is winning because in teh DICTATORIAL countries like YOURS the dictators do not have to report and answer to their citizens (IT IS CALLED FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS) about teh costs that their actions bear.

This is the main difference between the TOTALITARIAN regimes and democracies. Something you Russians will never learn- that’s why no one that knows you likes you- just ask Baltic countries, Polish, Hungarians, Chechens, Georgians etc... the crude reality ;)


Often in life time a man meets bullies, to whom doesn’t stand up to, but not because the bully is always stronger, it is most often because of the reluctance to confront him.

DEMOCRACIES AND BULLIES.

I don't understand Goran Svilanović. Brussel is weak when it comes to foreign policy. Did he really forgot that it was Germany that recognized Croatia first and not the EU? It is in this divided Europe that the US can play a big role.

His opinion on minorities is even more strange. It is very hard to find a place with a "homogenous national minority". Everywhere there are other ethnic groups with other interests. So ethnic policy is always a balancing act. That is the reason why you cannot just separate territory from a state and declare it independent.

Serbian brothers,

Our corrupt russian leaders have cut a deal with Washington. Russians have agreed to let Kosovo go. Try to get the north asap, before the deal is announced.
(Russian, 12 August 2008 19:34)

Looks, like we found many undercover Hungarians and Russians here. But I have no idea how one can pass the obligatory language exam and get the citizenship without knowing the language.

To R Guraziu, London:

So they put Portugal in EU because of... "security"?? What "security" could Portugal offer to the EU, could you please explain that??

I think you just misunderstand NATO with the EU here...

And yes these economies at that time were weaker (not very much just some...) in comparison to the northern countries but... does these make them "less Western" according to you?? So because Portugal had a weaker economy was... less "west" than UK?

Come on. You are just exposing yourself with what you say. Greece was put to the EU (and not NATO - don't misunderstand thse two organizations) ONLY because it was supposed a "pure west" state in the balkan region that was "pure east". And the so-called western countries wanted BADLY to put Greece into the EU at that time, much sooner than many other "western countries".

Now to try to put at the same basket Greece and Serbia, and present them as "equal eastern countries" is trully rediculous and noone can really take that consideration seriously.

Greece and Serbia are the biggest friends, I believe. But Greece's glorious past, culture and sciences cannot be compared by ANY WAY to Serbian - which was just a slav nation, coming to the region into the 6th century.

Greece contribution to the so-called western world (I don't believe that - the western world does) is tremendous. Greece actually invented Maths, Physics, Philosophy, Astronomy, Poetry, Architecture.. when your compatriots in UK were climbing on the trees to protect themselves from the beasts!

And for THOSE reasons every western country consider Greece pure "west" now. And for those reasons it was one of the first countries that became member of the European Union almost 30 years ago.

So don't say that Greece is just one more "eastern" country, because you simply show animosity against my country.

Greece is neither west nor east. Greece is just... Greece! No need to belong somewhere. A country with the most glorious history and culture in the whole planet... that today had a developed economy (similar to that of Italy and Spain) and a very strong military. Nothing else.

The domino effect Serbia/Russia were hoping for is absolutely not working in Serbia's favor. Read here

"The Russian foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov, said separately in a radio interview that Georgia “can forget about” its territorial integrity because the Georgian government under President Mikheil Saakashvili had committed so many atrocities that the two breakaway regions could never live under Georgian rule." NYTIMES

Pavles, just to enlighten you a bit regarding the EU's expansion, below is an extract of my paper on EU enlargement,

"the UK realised that they had made a mistake for not joining the EEC, and they decided to apply for the membership in 1961, but the President de Gaulle vetoed her application in 1963. The British made another application to join the EEC in 1967 under the Labour Government of Harold Wilson; however, de Gaulle blocked their application again. The French leader believed that Britain was still more pro American than pro European. De Gaulle resigned in 1969. Now that de Gaulle was out of the way, the UK had a greater chance in joining the EEC. Eventually in 1 January 1973, the UK together with Denmark and Ireland joined the EEC.
Following the first enlargement, which comprised the northern European countries, the EEC began expanding south. GREECE joined the EEC on 1 January 1981 followed by PORTUGAL and SPAIN in 1986 although all three economies were ‘quite weak’ the main reason behind the enlargement was do to with the concerns over security. By this time, the EEC was not only getting larger but even more integrated."

> Pavlos: Well, sorry to tell you but the Greek culture is in a higher level that ANY culture not only from Balkans but from the whole world.

Well Pavlos, the tragedy of what you said above is that it is only Greece that believes something like that(some Greek people, not everyone surely, as you do have educated people too who can make a qualified assessment of the place of their country in today's world objectively ). Why do you like looking down on other nations? Doesn't that say how it really is with Greece more than anything else? Everyone make your own judgment please...

All the Best to All Great Nations (that is 'to All nations').

Cheers!

Dear Pavlos,

Greece has also a foreign debt that is at least 20-30 times larger than that of any country in the Balkans, in fact is 150 times larger than the Albanian one, 12 times that of Serbia and so on. So one can see very clearly who BUILD GREECE.

Lessons we learn from Georgia experience? For a start wellcome to the Russian world order. This goes especially to all naive Europeans, who think US is too cocky. Russia already controls most of the oil pipelines in Europe, and one day it will US again who will save naive Europeans from Russian girth.

brake away from the past let as have a future,a future of equals

Pavlos:

> Greece was put to the EU (and not NATO - don't misunderstand these two organizations) ONLY because it was supposed a "pure west" state in the balkan region that was "pure east". And the so-called western countries wanted BADLY to put Greece into the EU at that time

The truth is Greece begged EU countries to let it in (as it was very poor and backward and belonging to eastern civilisation). Greece was savvy, it begged them individually as colectivelly they definitely did not want to accept it. The only reason they might have even thought of it was security - at that time - high tension between the US & Russia.

When Greece successfully got backing of all individual EU members (considering the number was 9, it was not much a problem I guess, definitely not compared to current 27 members) and when it came to the the time when the deal was to be done they just could not say 'no' even collectively as they assured Greece individually.

> Now to try to put at the same basket Greece and Serbia, and present them as "equal eastern countries" is trully rediculous and noone can really take that consideration seriously.

Why? Both are Eastern Orthodox (i.e. belonging to Eastern Christianity/Civilisation/Culture), both are purely 100% Balkan. What do you have against other Balkan countries that you object to the reality of being one of them? I believe all Balkan countries have a great & interesting culture, other Europeans appreciate it very much in general and so do I. So why do you have a problem with that?

> Greece actually invented Maths, Physics, Philosophy, Astronomy, Poetry, Architecture..

Greece laid foundations of philosophy & science in general - yes. But that does not equal being western. has China not invented many important things the whole world uses now (paper, compass...etc.)?

> And for THOSE reasons every western country consider Greece pure "west" now.

What is western about what you mentioned? Yes, physics, math, technology have been very fundamental things for the development of the west, but it is not the fundamental thing about the west in general - the western culture, based on western Christianity (as developed in the Holy Roman Empire, not in Greece). You laid foundations to science, but it was developed only later, in today's Western & Central Europe (i.e. countries with western culture).

> And for those reasons it was one of the first countries that became member of the European Union almost 30 years ago.

Greece was the 10th country to enter in 1981, is that 'one of the first'? Really?

> So don't say that Greece is just one more "eastern" country, because you simply show animosity against my country.

No, no animosity, or looking down or whatever, I think Greece is a great country as is Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria. I'm just stating the facts as opposed to what you prefer to believe to.

> Greece is neither west nor east. Greece is just... Greece! No need to belong somewhere. A country with the most glorious history and culture in the whole planet... that today had a developed economy (similar to that of Italy and Spain) and a very strong military. Nothing else.

Any country in Europe could claim that. Yes Greece finally after so many years of Brussels subsidizes has managed to get a higher GDP that is almost on par with Spain (though still considerably lower) and left Portugal behind. But it took time really...

As for the history, yes Greece has a great history, but the great part in it finished 2 thousand years ago. How has it contributed substantially to Europe since then (unlike e.g. countries once part of the Roman Empire)? You can't live just from the past...

All the Best to All good people - from Balkans or elsewhere. Cheers!

Greece is just... Greece! No need to belong somewhere. A country with the most glorious history and culture in the whole planet... that today had a developed economy (similar to that of Italy and Spain) and a very strong military. Nothing else.
(Pavlos, 13 August 2008 15:00)

Apparently like in the entire Balkans the sobriety is not much loved in Greece.

Italy is the sixth/seventh largest economy in teh World. Do you want to say that Greece is the eighth or ninth? ;)

I mean only a one mafia organization teh Calabrese La N'drangeta have a higher turn-over than the Greek GDP. Com on.

Strong Army? Invest your money in something else.

Russia often compared Kosova’s case with that of South Ossetia, which has around 70, 000 residents. Moscow has been harshly hitting Georgian targets, where the Russian separatist province is located, with justification that Tbilisi has been conducting genocide and ethnic cleansing. This scenario was announced earlier, when the Kosova status talks were going towards failure and the Russian ‘concern’ about the precedent, as they put it, was getting stronger and stronger.
The fight for political and economic domination in the world is ruthless and does not spare anything, not even the victims of a Russian expansionist ideology. Russian authorities have been developing a denigrating towards the regime of Mikhail Sakashvil, the Georgian President, who warned the West about the possibility for the escalation of the situation.
The Russian diplomacy had not taken such steps when Serbia applied policy against Kosova Albanians. It had not reacted at all. It had even joined Belgrade and brutal regime of Slobodan Milosevic. The parallel drawn by Moscow was unmasked as it was seen that Kosova’s case was used as a pretext for fulfilment of Russian geopolitical aggressive goals. Now, the West may get convinced that any expectation to receive Russian consensus and any dose of scepticism expressed in the talks on Kosova’s status was vain and fruitless. In this aspect, there are many other factors, like the war for energy, NATO’s expansion, clashes between Russia and US.
Kosova proved it is a unique case and the Russian claims for drawing parallels with Russian territories in former-Soviet republics got burned now. Seeing the flames and victims in Georgia, we should not forget our north, Mitrovica, where a state like Russia would not hesitate to incite tensions, violence, and interethnic conflict for its own interests.

> Well, If this is what "western civilization" actually means, I am totally shameful for being a part - and mostly a "cradle" of such a civilization!
(Pavlos, 12 August 2008 15:11)

Well Pavlos, it is not, Greece is a Balkan Southeastern European country with Eastern Christianity (Orthodox church) as any other such as Serbia. Cold War is over so stop dreaming of being a part of the West.
Greece of course contributed to the creation (by other countries in Western & Central Europe many centuries later) of the 'West' in its antique period, but it was only artificially considered part of the West as such during the bipolar world (Cold War) period based on the decision by Stalin & Churchill at the end of the WWII.
So don't be ashamed of something you are not.
All the best to all good people.

On 12 August 2008 10:54, BKK wrote:

"What a load of nonsense. Who is this clown?

Brussels - the centre of an unstable country which is about to separate into Flemish and French part, and who have still an issue deciding if the Brussels will be French or Flemish, whith country politicans having grave trouble electing government because both French and Flemish are feeling opressed and want less of the other in the government."

The clown here is you BKK! Brussels, whether it is French, Flemish or Purple, is where the European Commision (the "EU government") has its seat. That the Brussel Capital Region happens to be situated in Belgium is of no consequence whatsoever. As the article said, the EU Commision is part of the solution to the crisis in and around Kosovo and Georgia.

--

On 12 August 2008 15:11, Pavlos wrote:

"According to his logic, people in every country that want to be different, or live under different rule - should be given the right to just break the country apart without reaction!"

Yes, of course. Why not?

Pavlos: "So, should tha same happen to Spain and the Basques, letting them break Spain apart??"

Yes, of course. Why not? What is the harm done by that? Do you imagine that people from Catalonia wanting to visit Basque country will be blocked and turned away at the new Basque border? What good purpose would such an action serve?

Pavlos: "Should the same happen with Turkey and the Kurds, breaking Turkey apart??"

Yes, of course. Why not? Why is this such a terrible idea?

Pavlos: "Or should probably... the IRISH BREAK APART UK so they can "live freely", because they "feel different" and they have the right to live independently???"

Yes, of course. Or not. Ireland is already an independent country :)

Pavlos: "So Albanians have the right to live "independently" and destroy the sovereighity of Serbia but S. Ossetians in Georgia are not!!"

Say who? Not me. I say Independence for all! Twice on Sundays!!!

Pavlos: "Montenegrins have the right to live "independently" and form a country but Norhern Irish in UK are not!!!"

The people living in the north-east corner of Ireland known as Northern Ireland should OF COURSE be allowed to have independence - if the people living here can agree on it (or at least can show that a majority of them desire independence, e.g. in some kind of referendum).

Why are people (and governments) so damn afraid of independence??

--

I toatly agree with Goran Svilanovic.

You cannot rule people that don't want you. It is simply raping!

Attention: we Albanians are not afraid of this principle at all, although it could be applied to us as well (see N. Kosova).

Why? Because our land was grabbed.

Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone... of course Pavlos it's a pure coincidence you post here ;))

What is so wrong in self determination??

what do you think? how we got almost 200 countries in UN today when there were only about 50 after WW2?????

It was G. Bush and neocons that made them??? ;)

And you still dear to speak about double standards. Hypocrites!

(Rote Kapelle, 12 August 2008 10:27)

You “mighty” army is winning because in teh DICTATORIAL countries like YOURS the dictators do not have to report and answer to their citizens (IT IS CALLED FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS) about teh costs that their actions bear.

This is the main difference between the TOTALITARIAN regimes and democracies. Something you Russians will never learn- that’s why no one that knows you likes you- just ask Baltic countries, Polish, Hungarians, Chechens, Georgians etc... the crude reality ;)


Often in life time a man meets bullies, to whom doesn’t stand up to, but not because the bully is always stronger, it is most often because of the reluctance to confront him.

DEMOCRACIES AND BULLIES.

Mr. Svilanovic understands that after Georgia’s war which was Bush’s and Putin’s agreement the Kosovo resolution will past Security Council. So now he is trying to avoid USA and Russia because of their deal that they made even before Independence of Kosova. No my friend the deal has been made and it will get implemented, Abkhazia and Ossetia will get their state hood based on international law because USA will not veto the resolution and Kosova will gain its international law ground because Russia will not veto the up coming resolution. So Mr. Svilanovic is very smart he knows what is going to happen after the conflict ends in Georgia.

Mr. Svilanovic understands that after Georgia’s war which was Bush’s and Putin’s agreement (snip)
(Toni, 12 August 2008 12:45)

Toni, how much you paid for the 'shrooms? Where these the same mushrooms what Saakashvili uses daily? Can I have some, please?

What I am going to write maybe doesn’t relate directly to the subject matter but to clarify one piece of serbian propaganda: when NATO bombed Serbia there went thousand of thousand and hundreds of thousand of civilian killed. Serbian government purposely didn’t conduct an official tally, so it can earn victims credit on the misfortune of its own citizens.

“Human Rights Watch concludes that as few as 489 and as many as 528 Yugoslav civilians were killed in the ninety separate incidents in Operation Allied Force“

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/nato/Natbm200-01.htm

Finally someone in Serbia realized the rationale.

I wonder if Vuk Jeremic is jotting any notes down? I doubt it, but there's definitely something here that can learn.

From the article:

"Instead of seeking a peaceful solution for the problem of South Ossetia, the Georgian side chose to resort to a military method. Such unilateral use of force should be placed in the same order as other illegal unilateral steps such as the bombardment of Serbia, the invasion on Iraq, or the unilateral proclamation of the independence of Kosovo," [Russian diplomat Aleksandr] Konuzin was quoted as saying.

Let me just make one thing absolutely, 100 % clear:

Proclamations of any kind has NEVER killed people. Not even proclamations of independence.

Bormbardments and invasions are what kills people, not proclamations.

In fact it's a lesson for the Albanians ! Now they can see how helpless the West is and how easy they get rid of their puppets ! So the best place to discuss Kosovo evidently is Belgrad city after it is set free from the comprador Serbian elites.

What a load of nonsense. Who is this clown?

Brussels - the centre of an unstable country which is about to separate into Flemish and French part, and who have still an issue deciding if the Brussels will be French or Flemish, whith country politicans having grave trouble electing government because both French and Flemish are feeling opressed and want less of the other in the government.

This, ladies and gentlemen, according to this clown, is the pinicle of all resolution to Serbia's problems.
Let us not get carried away, shall we?

Brussels dances to Washington's tune.
What happened in Gerogia indicates, on the contrary, that West will desrt you as soon as your opposition is an equaly matched or stronger than them.
It also demonstrats that Russia will do whatever the hell it pleases, and all Brussels and Washington can do is talk talk talk, since noone dares challange Russia. For good reasons too.

All Brussels is, is Washington's side kick. A cronie that employes other cronies (most which are unwilling but have little choice) to do Washingon's biddings in Europe as it commands.

This man just insults everyone's intelligence.

�If you have a homogenous national minority on a territory, you cannot preserve that territory through undemocratic means,� Svilanovi� stressed.

By that logic Croatia should hand Krajina back (I'm a Krajinian, didn't want to be a Croat, and I got expelled for it "South Ossetian style").

Brussels endorsed Croatia's genocide.... they celebrate it as a public holiday and nobody cares!

What about RS in Bosnia - they aren't interested in BiH - can they have independence?

Brussels say no way.

Completely wrong Goran, the answers to these problems is still in Moscow and Washington.

Without Washington, NATO is nothing (do you think Belgium would have bombed Serbia without the US in the lead?).

Without some Russian backing, Serbia will dissapear from the maps completely.

No Svilanovic, what this means is that the EU, who are insisting on preserving the territorial integrity of Georgia, are a bunch of American lapdogs. Why, Gorane, don't you ask yourself why they aren't consistent and don't insist on Serbia's territorial integrity? Instead it is more double standards, more anti-Serbian policy, more huff and puff and bluster from the EU.
If anything, what this shows is that Russia is willing to put the life of its soldiers on the line to protect its interests, unlike the NATO cowards who bomb civilian targets from 15,000 ft only.
What we have just witnessed, ladies and gentlemen, is the first step of the reawakening of a mighty Russia. And it's about time!!
Cheers!!

I think it is a total shame for a Serbian citizen, and mostly a Serbian former minister to do such a statement.

According to his logic, people in every country that want to be different, or live under different rule - should be given the right to just break the country apart without reaction!

So, should tha same happen to Spain and the Basques, letting them break Spain apart?? Should the same happen with Turkey and the Kurds, breaking Turkey apart?? Or should probably... the IRISH BREAK APART UK so they can "live freely", because they "feel different" and they have the right to live independently???

It is quite obvious that the matter of "right to self determination" and democratic principles of "a nation to live independently" is only apllied to countries that are enemies of the west or just enemies the americans!

So Albanians have the right to live "independently" and destroy the sovereighity of Serbia but S. Ossetians in Georgia are not!!

Montenegrins have the right to live "independently" and form a country but Norhern Irish in UK are not!!!

This is what "democracy" (or better hypocrisy ...) means by the west:: Give "human rights" to the internal enemies of your enemies, but deny the same "human rights" to the internal enemies of your friends!!!

Double standards for every country, related to who "we like" and who we "don't like".

Fortunately, even some western countries have started to realize this hypocrisy of the "west" - by the americans mostly.

And I am not Serb, but just from a country that is the "cradle of the Western civilization" as the nations from the West call my country. Greece that is.

Well, If this is what "western civilization" actually means, I am totally shameful for being a part - and mostly a "cradle" of such a civilization!

“However, in so doing, Belgrade would find itself in a Catch 22: Belgrade would have to support the principle of territorial integrity, and that would lead to conflict with Moscow officials, whose support Belgrade is counting on at the UN Security Council.”

Russia has not recognized Ossetia, nor has it called for Ossetian independence. Serbia supports “more than autonomy, less than independence” in Kosovo, a solution for Ossetia I’m sure Russia would also approve of.

I’m sorry, but I don’t see any Catch 22?

This "Georgian experience" can only be drawn up once Russia shows its endgame hand.

If Russia is only interested in forcing Georgian troops out of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia, ensuring the autonomy they had prior to Aug. 6, maintaining Russian dominance and support to these two parastates, and keeping them within Georgia, thus "maintaining Georiga's territorial integrity", then we can say that Georgia is what should have happened to Serbia in 1999, and in 2008.

If on the other hand Russia is interested in pounding Georgia into the ground, overthrowing the pro-American regime in Tiblisi, AND annexing both breakaway regions, Georigia is to Russia what Iraq is to the US, and a new phase in international relations in which might makes right is now a legitimate form of diplomacy.

It's no surprise Serbia is remaining silent on this because they don't know how far Russia is going. They can see parallels all over, but are unsure whether Russia will be just as belligerent as Washington (in which case Kosovo is now perfectly justifed as spoils of war and BG can no longer rely on Russia), or whether Russia is really working to ensure the status quo doesn't change (in which Kosovo looks even more illegal and Russia has a stronger hand to play on the international front)

"However, in so doing, Belgrade would find itself in a Catch 22: Belgrade would have to support the principle of territorial integrity, and that would lead to conflict with Moscow officials, whose support Belgrade is counting on at the UN Security Council. "

Er, no. I find it most annoying that basic, important facts are left out.

Russia has said on multiple occasions that it supports the territorial integrity of Georgia. NATO and many western countries do not support the territorial integrity of Serbia, apparently it is a 'special' and 'unique' case. The fact that the kosovo albanians are their allies OBVIOUSLY has nothing to do with it.

Might is right.

There is no Catch-22 situation.

brake away from the past let as have a future,a future of equals

"Medvedev also said "sovereignty is based on the will of the people" and "territorial integrity can be demonstrated by the actual facts on the ground."

Serbian brothers,

Our corrupt russian leaders have cut a deal with Washington. Russians have agreed to let Kosovo go. Try to get the north asap, before the deal is announced.

Peace.

Long Live Serbia

laki NY:
Since you're taking 'liberties', might as well go all the way - right?

Human Rights Watch has never condemned NATO/US for those same civilian deaths ('collateral damage' using NATO's euphemisms).

HRW didn't condemn NATO/US for the direct attack on that TV station in Belgrade as much of the world's media did at the time.

HRW has never condemned the US for the estimated 1,000,000 civilian deaths in Iraq.

And HRW's 'official tally' of those same iraqi civilian deaths matches that of the Iraq body count project - which only takes into account those deaths reported in 'approved media sources' - which incidentally is also used by the US govt.

The figures HRW provides are only useful when setting a lower limit.

And that's all their figure of approx. 500 for the civilian deaths caused by NATO's bombing is - a lower limit.

To Mirek London/Prague:

"" so stop dreaming of being a part of the West.""

First of all who told you that "I am dreaming to be a part of the west"??

Contrarily I think I am neither a part of the west nor a part of the east, and I definetely don't want to be a part of the west.

Religiously I might be considered a part of the east (christian orthodox), but my culture and civilaziation is considered a part of the west. (The whole western civilaziation is totally based on Greeks and Romans - either you admit it or not, and NOT in "many" countries generally as you claim...).

But the point is that - for you probably - to be a part of the west is an "honor", while for me it a shame.

So, I don't care to be a part of the west. And I don't want so as well. Just the whole western civilization - represented by most of the western countries - want ta claim the the Greek Culture is Western Culture, the Greek Sciences are Western sciences, and the Greek country is a western country. That's why my country is one of the oldest EU and NATO members, older that Portugal, Spain or... England! (Sorry... my country became a member of the EU, because of the Cold War too??? That's funny to hear...)

But you are right, I don't consider myself "west". Most the western people (unlike you, I know you don't...) consider me west. That's why I was put in EU before England and Spain... and that's why everybody loves the Greek culture and is proud to "cosnider" it the cradle of the western culture.

(I know you don't like that, but either you like it or not, it is true.)

For my Albanian friends...

How is it going to feel to be known as the ones who created a future global mess for years to come? Don't believe me? Just do a Google search on Google news about Georgia and Kosovo. Then again, I know many of you will respond with "no comaprison" arguments that are both flawed and arrogant. I know, you got yours (independence, somewhat) and you don't care about anyone else who has the same beef or better(Kurds, Basques, etc..). That's the problem with you guys, NO LONG TERM THINKING and arrogance. Or maybe you guys just don't think much beyond the Balkans and Western Europe. You've opened a pandora's box and many of you are trying to damage control all over the Internet.....

Btw, you should thank B92 for allowing your voices. I just tried many Albanian sites (New Kosova and other Albanian sites) who refuse to publish dissenting arguments about how Osetia has nothing to do with "Kosova" I want to thank B92 for allowing us to discuss this in a civilized way...

I don't understand Goran Svilanović. Brussel is weak when it comes to foreign policy. Did he really forgot that it was Germany that recognized Croatia first and not the EU? It is in this divided Europe that the US can play a big role.

His opinion on minorities is even more strange. It is very hard to find a place with a "homogenous national minority". Everywhere there are other ethnic groups with other interests. So ethnic policy is always a balancing act. That is the reason why you cannot just separate territory from a state and declare it independent.

Dear 'Russian',

Why on earth does the Kremlin have to cut a deal with the west in a Kosovo/Georgia swap?

Russia is being ignored in Kosovo anyway and has won hands down in Georgia because they kept their military objectives reasonable and legal. There's very little the west can do unless they prefer to buy their energy from somewhere else, Kosovo maybe?

Sure, the US and buddies can go and bomb/nuke Iran without UN sanction, but that would destroy the UN. Russian cooperation is needed on a whole host of international diplomatic issues. The west has over extended itself and is paying the price.

Pavles, just to enlighten you a bit regarding the EU's expansion, below is an extract of my paper on EU enlargement,

"the UK realised that they had made a mistake for not joining the EEC, and they decided to apply for the membership in 1961, but the President de Gaulle vetoed her application in 1963. The British made another application to join the EEC in 1967 under the Labour Government of Harold Wilson; however, de Gaulle blocked their application again. The French leader believed that Britain was still more pro American than pro European. De Gaulle resigned in 1969. Now that de Gaulle was out of the way, the UK had a greater chance in joining the EEC. Eventually in 1 January 1973, the UK together with Denmark and Ireland joined the EEC.
Following the first enlargement, which comprised the northern European countries, the EEC began expanding south. GREECE joined the EEC on 1 January 1981 followed by PORTUGAL and SPAIN in 1986 although all three economies were ‘quite weak’ the main reason behind the enlargement was do to with the concerns over security. By this time, the EEC was not only getting larger but even more integrated."

Serbian brothers,

Our corrupt russian leaders have cut a deal with Washington. Russians have agreed to let Kosovo go. Try to get the north asap, before the deal is announced.
(Russian, 12 August 2008 19:34)

Looks, like we found many undercover Hungarians and Russians here. But I have no idea how one can pass the obligatory language exam and get the citizenship without knowing the language.

To R Guraziu, London:

So they put Portugal in EU because of... "security"?? What "security" could Portugal offer to the EU, could you please explain that??

I think you just misunderstand NATO with the EU here...

And yes these economies at that time were weaker (not very much just some...) in comparison to the northern countries but... does these make them "less Western" according to you?? So because Portugal had a weaker economy was... less "west" than UK?

Come on. You are just exposing yourself with what you say. Greece was put to the EU (and not NATO - don't misunderstand thse two organizations) ONLY because it was supposed a "pure west" state in the balkan region that was "pure east". And the so-called western countries wanted BADLY to put Greece into the EU at that time, much sooner than many other "western countries".

Now to try to put at the same basket Greece and Serbia, and present them as "equal eastern countries" is trully rediculous and noone can really take that consideration seriously.

Greece and Serbia are the biggest friends, I believe. But Greece's glorious past, culture and sciences cannot be compared by ANY WAY to Serbian - which was just a slav nation, coming to the region into the 6th century.

Greece contribution to the so-called western world (I don't believe that - the western world does) is tremendous. Greece actually invented Maths, Physics, Philosophy, Astronomy, Poetry, Architecture.. when your compatriots in UK were climbing on the trees to protect themselves from the beasts!

And for THOSE reasons every western country consider Greece pure "west" now. And for those reasons it was one of the first countries that became member of the European Union almost 30 years ago.

So don't say that Greece is just one more "eastern" country, because you simply show animosity against my country.

Greece is neither west nor east. Greece is just... Greece! No need to belong somewhere. A country with the most glorious history and culture in the whole planet... that today had a developed economy (similar to that of Italy and Spain) and a very strong military. Nothing else.

Pavlos:

> Greece was put to the EU (and not NATO - don't misunderstand these two organizations) ONLY because it was supposed a "pure west" state in the balkan region that was "pure east". And the so-called western countries wanted BADLY to put Greece into the EU at that time

The truth is Greece begged EU countries to let it in (as it was very poor and backward and belonging to eastern civilisation). Greece was savvy, it begged them individually as colectivelly they definitely did not want to accept it. The only reason they might have even thought of it was security - at that time - high tension between the US & Russia.

When Greece successfully got backing of all individual EU members (considering the number was 9, it was not much a problem I guess, definitely not compared to current 27 members) and when it came to the the time when the deal was to be done they just could not say 'no' even collectively as they assured Greece individually.

> Now to try to put at the same basket Greece and Serbia, and present them as "equal eastern countries" is trully rediculous and noone can really take that consideration seriously.

Why? Both are Eastern Orthodox (i.e. belonging to Eastern Christianity/Civilisation/Culture), both are purely 100% Balkan. What do you have against other Balkan countries that you object to the reality of being one of them? I believe all Balkan countries have a great & interesting culture, other Europeans appreciate it very much in general and so do I. So why do you have a problem with that?

> Greece actually invented Maths, Physics, Philosophy, Astronomy, Poetry, Architecture..

Greece laid foundations of philosophy & science in general - yes. But that does not equal being western. has China not invented many important things the whole world uses now (paper, compass...etc.)?

> And for THOSE reasons every western country consider Greece pure "west" now.

What is western about what you mentioned? Yes, physics, math, technology have been very fundamental things for the development of the west, but it is not the fundamental thing about the west in general - the western culture, based on western Christianity (as developed in the Holy Roman Empire, not in Greece). You laid foundations to science, but it was developed only later, in today's Western & Central Europe (i.e. countries with western culture).

> And for those reasons it was one of the first countries that became member of the European Union almost 30 years ago.

Greece was the 10th country to enter in 1981, is that 'one of the first'? Really?

> So don't say that Greece is just one more "eastern" country, because you simply show animosity against my country.

No, no animosity, or looking down or whatever, I think Greece is a great country as is Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria. I'm just stating the facts as opposed to what you prefer to believe to.

> Greece is neither west nor east. Greece is just... Greece! No need to belong somewhere. A country with the most glorious history and culture in the whole planet... that today had a developed economy (similar to that of Italy and Spain) and a very strong military. Nothing else.

Any country in Europe could claim that. Yes Greece finally after so many years of Brussels subsidizes has managed to get a higher GDP that is almost on par with Spain (though still considerably lower) and left Portugal behind. But it took time really...

As for the history, yes Greece has a great history, but the great part in it finished 2 thousand years ago. How has it contributed substantially to Europe since then (unlike e.g. countries once part of the Roman Empire)? You can't live just from the past...

All the Best to All good people - from Balkans or elsewhere. Cheers!

Greece is just... Greece! No need to belong somewhere. A country with the most glorious history and culture in the whole planet... that today had a developed economy (similar to that of Italy and Spain) and a very strong military. Nothing else.
(Pavlos, 13 August 2008 15:00)

Apparently like in the entire Balkans the sobriety is not much loved in Greece.

Italy is the sixth/seventh largest economy in teh World. Do you want to say that Greece is the eighth or ninth? ;)

I mean only a one mafia organization teh Calabrese La N'drangeta have a higher turn-over than the Greek GDP. Com on.

Strong Army? Invest your money in something else.

To Mirek London/Prague:

Firstly: Again you are repeating the same things without really having the knowledge or the information - and you exposing yourslef.

When Greece became a member of the European Union (the decision was taken in 1979 and not 1981) the ONLY one that was begging was the French president to the other european countries. Of course Greece wanted very much too, but definetely was NOT begging. At that time, the whole opposition parties of Greece were screaming NOT to be a part of the EU by all means! Actually after the PASOK opposition party was elected - it was threating to leave the EU in the first years, but was convinced by France mostly to stay.

Secondly: Who said that I underestimate the culture of Balkans?? You are the one that underestimates the Greek culture and trying to put it into the same "basket" with other balkan countries.

Well, sorry to tell you but the Greek culture is in a higher level that ANY culture not only from Balkans but from the whole world.

If the majority of the today sciences is based on the practical sciences that were TOTALLY invenvted by Greeks - this makes it exceptional - not only in the balkan region but in the whole planet. And not only practical sciences but Astronomy, Philosophy, Architecture and so on...

Thridly: What do you mean "eastern countries"?? Do you categorise them - only by religion? Because if that is so, then yes we are christian orthodox and PROUD OF IT!

But if you relate them with culture... sorry to tell you, Your western culture, arts and sciences is totally based on Greek culture (the Romans simply did not invent ANY sciences actually but "borrowed the Greek ones)!

So again I say: Don't try to put Greece on the same basket with the other eastern countries. Greece today has an economy that is 20 to 30 years in front of ANY balkan or eastern european country (including serbia) no matter if it took - quite long as you say.

And Spain's nominal GDP per capita right now according to the IMF is 31,471$ while Greece's is 32,421$. That makes it considerably HIGHER and not lower as you falsely mention...

To Ben:

Hey Ben! It is obvious that you are not that aware of economy. GDP per CAPITA means how much time individually each citizen earns and NOT the economy in total. This is how the economy standard of every country is counted. Go to the official data of the IMF and see in which place Greece is and Italy... (and much MUCH lower you can also check Albania and the other "eastern" countries").

> Pavlos: Well, sorry to tell you but the Greek culture is in a higher level that ANY culture not only from Balkans but from the whole world.

Well Pavlos, the tragedy of what you said above is that it is only Greece that believes something like that(some Greek people, not everyone surely, as you do have educated people too who can make a qualified assessment of the place of their country in today's world objectively ). Why do you like looking down on other nations? Doesn't that say how it really is with Greece more than anything else? Everyone make your own judgment please...

All the Best to All Great Nations (that is 'to All nations').

Cheers!

Dear Pavlos,

Greece has also a foreign debt that is at least 20-30 times larger than that of any country in the Balkans, in fact is 150 times larger than the Albanian one, 12 times that of Serbia and so on. So one can see very clearly who BUILD GREECE.

Lessons we learn from Georgia experience? For a start wellcome to the Russian world order. This goes especially to all naive Europeans, who think US is too cocky. Russia already controls most of the oil pipelines in Europe, and one day it will US again who will save naive Europeans from Russian girth.

The domino effect Serbia/Russia were hoping for is absolutely not working in Serbia's favor. Read here

"The Russian foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov, said separately in a radio interview that Georgia “can forget about” its territorial integrity because the Georgian government under President Mikheil Saakashvili had committed so many atrocities that the two breakaway regions could never live under Georgian rule." NYTIMES