"South Ossetia, payback for Kosovo"

'Recognizing Kosovo will bring nothing but trouble. No one can be denied the right to self-determination, but only within the bounds of common sense," he was quoted as saying at the time.

Walesa stressed in his statements to the Polish media that Kosovo was "with its irresponsible behavior, causing new divisions in Europe and globally and undermining international relations".

Well said Lech! The arrogant and irresponsible US has opened a Pandora's box which will cause more misery and war all over the world. I suppose the US military industrial complex is happy about this, and it seems they are still pulling the strings of all American governments, both Republican and Democrat.
On another note, what Saakashvili did on the opening day of the Olympics, firing missiles into a city and killing hundreds of civilians, is a blatant war crime. Karadzic never even contemplated doing something of this sort, even though Sarajevo could have easily been completely flattened. Will Saskashvili face justice in the Hague or any other criminal 'court'?? No, of course not. He is a puppet of the Americans, and they protect their puppets very well. As long as you are an obedient stooge, you can commit war crimes, ethnic cleansing, even genocide, all you like and they will hail you as a 'freedom fighter' or a 'democrat'. This is how the Americans operate. A Canadian friend of mine once told me that what the US has become is 'far worse than the Soviet Union'.
The decline of the American empire is very welcome to the world and international relations. I look forward to further and more rapid decline of this corrupt empire, and the rise of Russia. It will help us immensely.
Cheers!!

Well, well, well... Seems that the West is reaping what it sowes. Funny how the Kosovo UDI was "a unique case" in EU/US opinion, yet the world thinks otherwise. It is impossible to live in the 21st century and try to use the "do as I say, not as I do" attitude that the EU/US has used for Kosovo. Are the Western leaders such bobbleheads that they thought noone would notice their support for an UDI and that the rest of the world's population will just forget about their own separtist aspirations?
It's funny reading about the posts on this subject, though extremely tragic are the deaths of the innocent civilians (all civilians from both sides). Are the Western supporters and K-Albanians experiencing cognitive disonance? How can they say they want an independent Kosovo without sympathizing with the breakaway regions of Georgia? How can the K-Albanians sympathize with the Georgian's? How can the West criticize Russia? Did not the EXACT same thing happen in Serbia/Kosovo in 1999?!? Please spare me the self righteous ideaology and thinking that K-Albanians are somehow superior and worthy of the UDI while the rest of the world is not. You either are for UDI and self determination, or you are for Internation Law and Order. There is NO middle ground in this... no "Special cases"

It is unfortunate that this conflict exploded between russia and georgia which resulted a lost of lives and property.

Georgia is not an enemy but a friend who also supported serbia's territorial integrity.

The WEST lead by the US should be blamed and should be accountable.

Of course, by recognising Kosovo some USA’s lapdogs made precedent which is now very useful for all who want independence. Russia was warning all the time that this is going to happen but Russophobes decided to ignore this fact by creating silly explanation for Kosovo calling it sui generis case. Sui generis naturally turned to be pure failure because people got sick of being treated as idiots and continuously undermined by “powerful” international political “elite”.

So, after all Russia has all the rights to claim its province back since Georgia lost its credibility by killing so many civilians in only one day. The death toll is way too high to just forget it and make a peace with Georgia like nothing has happened. There will be no peace possible any soon, so Russia will rightfully take the region under its control. Furthermore, South Ossetia is not the only break away region, there are more to come.

It is just sad that knowing all these, Poland anyway decided to recognise Kosovo. And for what reason? Just to oppose Russia by all means (over Serbia’s back), to please their masters from USA without gaining anything for itself. Oh, yes, Poland will gain that shield as a huge thanks from the USA for being so cooperative. It was weak decision by Poland and once again opportunity to express their Russophobe stand.

Funckaes, You're a funny guy :) Of course Kosovo can join Albania. However, you then must allow a sizeable chunk of Albania to join Greece :)

Funcakes,

Serbia's negative growth rate and Kosovo's astronomical 2.7% growth rate would make the populations of two countries tied in no time.

-With such birth rate you create only poverty with no real vision how to provide prosperous future for al these babies that will eventually grow up. Oh I get it, the more of them will be sent to the West in order to earn for the entire family which may number some 20-30 members, at least. There is nothing to be proud off, on the contrary.

Then you continued by saying “You'd be sharing Belgrade with the Albos and speaking Shqip right now.”

-You must be joking, right? There is no way that Serbs would ever speak your language as you could never gain any important positions with such low rate of educated.

You should face the fact that Albanians just used to do nothing else but only asking for some rights that they are allegedly deprived off.

I would say consider your self lucky at the moment because you are backed by the USA and the EU and got temporarily peace of Serbian land in order to exercise a bit how to govern the province and experience self-governing. That won’t last for long, that you can be certain.

Apparently, it's not just Poland that's realizing Kosovo was a precedent for S. Ossetia. Even some officials in the US State Department are realizing this is Russia's answer to "if it's good for you, it's good for us"

Take a look at the article in the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/world/europe/10diplo.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

“There is no possibility of drawing NATO or the international community into this,” said a senior State Department official in a conference call with reporters.

- ... "there is a growing feeling among some officials in the Bush administration that perhaps the United States cannot have it all, and may have to choose its priorities, particularly when it comes to Russia."

The worst part about this, is that while Georgia is a strong US ally, we (the US) are hanging them out to dry. There is no interest in helping them, there is no interest in coming to their aid. We have basically left them at the mercy of Moscow. Let this just show you that unless your country end with

- itain, or
- srael

you're expendable to us. And the worst part about it is that we've abandoned a real country to carve out a fake one.

And herein lies the supreme irony. Both Russia and the West have indeed got themselves into a real mess over Kosovo, and we can see the results all too clearly now.

Georgia has been sacrificed by the West on the grounds that what it did in 1999, Russia has a right to do now. The danger is that Serbia and Georgia might both now find themselves sacrificed by Washington and Moscow in the name of a compromise on a long term settlement. Kosovo is recognised as independent in return for Georgia losing South Ossetia and Abkhazia to Russia.

At this point honour is restored to the US and Russia in the name of two 'unique cases', and everythign continues along as before, except for Serbia and Georgia.

Remember, countries don't have friends, they have interests.

Well,time to create new maps right, Let Russians be with Russians and Albanians with Albanians, and Serbian with Serbians. South Ossetia does only create good credentials for Kosovo Albanians. Let Kosova join Albania if South Ossetia join Russia.

Mr. bmrusila.

I don't know if you know this but the sun does not circle around Serbia, but it is the other way around. Secondly, the more languages you speak the better you are. For example, I speak your and can understand you when you curse at me but, you can not to the same. Thirdly, don't worry about the population growth among Albanians we make them we can feed them.

Hey, if the West made a deal with Russia to allow it to snatch South Ossetia & Abkhazia in exchange of Kosovo recognition, fine, have them!

Just as long as you don't touch those pipelines and recognize Kosovo, everything is cool. Those Ossetians and Abkhazi didn't wanna be in Georgia anyway so nothing wrong with that. Hopefully they are happier with Russia.

And while we're at these happy re-unions, might as well let Kosovo unite with Albania too.

The precedent game, right? ;)

Carefully chosen news by B92.

Why don't you report that the leaders of former teh eastern block Baltic countries and Poland have asked EU and NATO to condemn the imperialistic aggression of Russia.

or

Carl Bildt Swedish FM who compared Russian aggression with the Nazi German actions?


With the respect to the Polish European MP but he is a joke compared to the leaders of Baltic countries, Poland and Carl Bildt.

Com on B92 you should give up of the Serbianna propaganda if you want to be treated as democratic source.

In democracy the sovereignty of the countries comes from her people. People of Kosova never ever recognized the Serbian sovereignty. Simple like that! All the rest means violence of the democratic rules and war. Is this what you want?

There is nothing “patriotic” you can do about Kosova. The only patriotic thing that you can do is to accept and divulgate the truth: that Serbian borders should have never include Kosova since Kosovars NEVER accepted Serbia as their state, and that now this fact is acknowledged by the World. Period! It pointless that you go and hunt a declaration of insignificant ppl around the world and repackage it to suit you hegemonic plans towards Kosova.

At least the Russians can not say that they don't recognize Kosovo's separation from Serbia. But one has to remember Kosovo has 2 million souls that don't want to live with Serbia, S.Osetia has only 70.000 thousand. (a big difference).

Just trying to gather what the Serbs are saying. They say that Russia has the right to get its troops inside Georgia because the South Ossetians are Russians.
Then a simple parallelism can be made. That is, that if Albania had sent its own troops and army to Kosova then according to the Serbs it would have been ok since in Kosova Albanians were being killed.
I am amazed as to how often in such short periods of time, the Serbs change their stories.
Russia is right to defend international law, but Russia is also right to break international law. Why? Because someone else broke it before. Well someone else also defended international law. So the excuse the Russians and the Serbs have is a pretty lame one. It is lame because both of these countries have time and time again broken and raped international law. (Serbia does it on a daily basis by hiding Mladic). Once they're done breaking international law and they're cornered, they paint themselves as champions and defenders of international law. Talk about hypocrisy, and yet these countries are the first ones to point their fingers to the hypocrisy of other countries while shamelessly they are doing the same things the accuse others of.

Who is breaking the "International Law" now?
What is this all about? Till now Russia was bllabering about Kosova's independenc and now they are playing with rockets, is that a training or what???
What a shame!
What kind of joke are they trying to put on here today..

Comparing Kosova with South Ossetia is the stupidiest comment someone can make especially from a "retired" "polititian" like Valesa. He is a trade union guy....)))
Can someone tell me what is the number of the population of South Ossetia? I heared the Russian Ambassador at the UN saying 100.000....I mean one hundred thousand and not a million as the Serbs here might want to be by adding a zero))) South Ossetia can be compared with Northern Mitrovica.

Funcakes - "Serbia's negative growth rate and Kosovo's astronomical 2.7% growth rate would make the populations of two countries tied in no time." Where did you get your mickey mouse ideas from?

Let me guess, from the Kosovo dept of propaganda who also try to let the world believe they have their own state and passports? nobody is going to take your passport seriously, especially when Goofy is on the front of it.

Dan - "they will never win international recognition how kosovo has won." explain that concept to me. Are you trying to say that the world's "democracies" recognise you. We've heard this argument hundreds of times, but unfortunately you Albo's have problems counting. First, India as the world's largest democracy says NO to Kosovo, and it's population dwarfs all 43 countries TOGETHER. So more people in the "democratic" world disagree with you. Second, remind me again how many countries recognise you? ONLY 43. What do all the others countries like Brazil Argentina, South Africa, etc,etc say. Let me remind you - NO.

And the final piece in the Jigsaw, a UN seat. Do you have one? NO. Therefore you aren't a country according to a mojority of the world's population and democracies.

I wish you luck on your NATO membership though. You're perfect for the Americans to be used as cannon fodder.

I just forgot to add something addressed to funca

there are appr. 100.000 Albanians living in the serbian capital, and they live there quite well and safe.
nothing you could say about the Serbs living among Albanians in the serbian southern province.

don´t you think that this says a lot about our communities?

and there are even some Albanians from southern Serbia coming to Belgrade for medical treatment!

no matter what you write, you can´t bend the truth to absurdity.

Besides agreeing with Lech Walesa (boy, I bet now few Americans are happy to disagree with him - they instead support some communists http://tinyurl.com/5c3c73 in Kosovo) this recent conflict had nothing to do with Kosovo at begin, but after the end it may create a very different "reality on the ground".

- It was clearly started by Georgians, it was a little tongue-slip on Hungarian Népszabadság I did cite earlier and also on TV.

- The high numbers of civill casualties versus insignificant Russian military losses (14 soldiers) is the proof, indeed Georgians started the conflict by shelling the civilian houses at night.

- Huge private issues are reported around Saakashvili, thank God, not applicable to any major player (thaci/ceku/Tadic/nikolic/etc-etc) in Kosovo-conflict. I cannot confirm these, but looking at his past not impossible.

- Unlike with Ossetia you cannot drive clear ethnic lines between Serbia Proper/Kosovo/Albania. The problem with Kavkaz/Kafkas is not the unclear ethnic lines, but the number of different ethnic elements. While the language of Osets is Indo-Iranian (like Slavic or Albanian), the language of Georgians is a completely separate group and the language of Chechens belongs to Tibetian/Chinese group(!). Mix the situation with Mongol language of Kalmyks and Turkic of Azeris - now you have the Kavkaz problem:

http://tinyurl.com/6zssd9

An interesting link (in Hungarian) is an essay on Népszabadság - one of the most respectable media in Hungary:

http://www.nol.hu/cikk/502877

I am lazy to translate the entire essay (written on August 9), but it's essence is:

"Rút idõzítés" = "Ugly timing" and it's full of criticism of Saakashvili's politics, esp. because the assault was timed for the Olympics game.

The most critical is the end of the article, comparing Saakashvili with bin Laden:

"Ennél rútabb idõzítést az al-Kaida sem tudott volna kiötölni." = "Even Al-Qaeda could not do a more ugly timing".

Interestingly, the article is somewhat critical of John McCain - he is the ONLY American politician, who openly voiced support. (My opinion: McCain is completely ignorant about the backgrounds - and his stand does not speak good about him. If he ever would have a morsel of our support, it's gone by now. With 100%: three more voters for Obama!)

The article is critical about the Russians, too. Of course, Népszabadság openly supports Kosovo UDI. They say, Russians do everything their best to prevent Kosovo recognition and thus, not to be blamed of double-standard they cannot openly support Osetia independence - so they did it until now under the cover, they did not act honestly by openly supporting the territorial integrity of Georgia and their best interest is to keep Georgia under pressure by supporting the separatists.

The article is acknowledging, that now there is a completely new "reality on the ground": because of Georgian actions, Russian citizen did die. Most Osetians are double citizens. This gives Russia a blank mandate to "support own citizens" by all means. Russian forces are in Osetia under UN mandate (like NATO in Kosovo), and there is no known limitation, HOW MANY of them may be present.

Basically - it looks like - now Saakashvili with his irresponsible action "freed" Russia from being bound to certain rules.

K-Albanians, say "thank you" to Saakashvili and his American "expat advisors" (= private adventurers) for this act. It seems - according the article - they screwed you real good and set the "wild bear" free.


Otherwise still waiting from some Americans here the answer: why do they sudden disagree with such people as Lech Walesa, but do support these

http://tinyurl.com/5c3c73
http://tinyurl.com/6dk2ef

communists? Where is the logic? I asked it at least 3-4 times, here it is again:

"Why is communism good, if it comes from anti-Russian/ant-Serb side and anti-communism bad if it supports Russia or Serbia"?

"Mr. bmrusila."
(ALBANIANKOSOVAR, 10 August 2008 18:42)

That's wrong. We know the little secret, "bmrusila" is not "Mr."

---------------------

Secondly, the more languages you speak the better you are. For example, I speak your and can understand you when you curse at me but, you can not to the same.
(ALBANIANKOSOVAR, 10 August 2008 18:42)

This is one of VALID K-Albanian arguments, actually. Albanian language deserves to be learned. Otherwise it's difficult to live in one place together. Serbs should be €ncouraged and who desires to learn it, should be given more opportuniti€$. For instance, Serbia can ask €.U. or U$A to help in that matter. Let's $€€, how much talk will they (EU/US) implement in d€€d$. You know, what I mean, the "€" and "$" signs are not a typo here.

Will look very good for the EU bureaucrats, too - and discharge some of their anti-Serbian ammunition. Apropos, ammunition, the money allocated to send arms to Kosovo could be rather used for above reason, there are way to much arms in private hands on Kosovo territory already.

---------------------

there are appr. 100.000 Albanians living in the serbian capital, and they live there quite well and safe. nothing you could say about the Serbs living among Albanians in the serbian southern province. (...snip...) and there are even some Albanians from southern Serbia coming to Belgrade for medical treatment!
(Jovan, 10 August 2008 21:55)

This is 100% true. But it's not on CNN.

Romanian

Thank you for sharing that very intelligent viewpoint with us.

"No one can be denied the right to self-determination, but only within the bounds of common sense,"

self-determination is common sense enough: no foreign soldiers or police, especially given the history. For the record, once Albanians picked up weapons it was a done deal. They are now as many Albanians and Serbs in the Balkans and Serbia is very weak alone after the separations, so even if US had said no, Albanians would not have stopped and Tirana would have eventually opened up it's huge artillery depots. US /EU did not want to see such a mess in the Balkans so they stopped it. Face it, Serbia cannot hold 2 million Albanians against their will, with 4 more million in the border, especially give the history. In Ossetia we're talking about 70,000 people.

Russia is just to show that it matters: Russia is no superpower, Germany alone is stronger than them. And so is Britain, France, China, India and Canada. Even Poland alone will probably beat the Russians. Russia should worry about oil prices and the economy since it's based on minerals alone.

Strav, my comments relate to the topic perfectly.

Russia unites with Ossetia and Abkhazia, and Albania unites with Kosovo. Case closed.

Since Russia likes carrots in exchange of vetoes, the West made a sweet deal. You take that Abkhazia and Ossetia which mean nothing to us, and you don't veto Kosovo which means alot to us. You get your pro-Russian people, we get our pro-American people, and everyone's happy.

Besides, what is poor Serbia gonna do with Kosovo anyway. Serbia's negative growth rate and Kosovo's astronomical 2.7% growth rate would make the populations of two countries tied in no time.

You should consider yourself lucky that the Kosovars are contained within their country of Kosovo now. Imagine if they were to spill over to Serbia and overtake you like they're about to own Macedonia.

You'd be sharing Belgrade with the Albos and speaking Shqip right now.

Hey, if the West made a deal with Russia to allow it to snatch South Ossetia & Abkhazia in exchange of Kosovo recognition, fine, have them!

Just as long as you don't touch those pipelines and recognize Kosovo, everything is cool. Those Ossetians and Abkhazi didn't wanna be in Georgia anyway so nothing wrong with that. Hopefully they are happier with Russia.

And while we're at these happy re-unions, might as well let Kosovo unite with Albania too.

The precedent game, right? ;)
(Funcakes, 10 August 2008 14:19)

Your comments do not relate to the topic at all.

"However, you then must allow a sizeable chunk of Albania to join Greece :)"

Haha. 85% of real Greeks are in Greece already. The other 10,000 are old people. The Greeks are well inside Albania, surrounded by Labs and Chams.

On the other hand, they are over 600,000 Albanians in Greece and growing, along with 1 million Turks, Slavs etc etc. Greece also expelled some 30,000 Albanians in WWII so they (200,000 by now) will soon get back when Albanian joins EU.

So, who's worried, Albania or Greece?

south ossetia or abkhazia cant used as a kosovo percedent because no one expect russia will recognize these pseudo states called south ossetia or abkhazia. the west will never accept it.they will never win international recognition how kosovo has won.

So, after all Russia has all the rights to claim its province back since Georgia lost its credibility by killing so many civilians in only one day. The death toll is way too high to just forget it and make a peace with Georgia like nothing has happened. There will be no peace possible any soon, so Russia will rightfully take the region under its control. Furthermore, South Ossetia is not the only break away region, there are more to come.

(bmrusila, 10 August 2008 14:54)

They won't. They will openly speak over and over to "support Georgia's territorial integrity" - but station huge forces in Osetia and Abhazia. Saakashvili won't succeed, so he probably will fly. Either at the next election... or anyway. And his NATO dreams are probably over.

People are so self righteous and nations can everyone spell WAR. That is where we are all heading to WW2 will look like minor insignificant incident you're all blind!

Russia said before this war was started "if you want Kosova you should give up from Ukraine and Georgia".
So Serbias desicion to hope in "Russias veto" is wrong because Russia balance America in region in this way not by oppositing Kosovas independence.Maybe this act can anticipete Kosovas recognition by Russia

I have posted before that this is one reason for the conflict, Russia said it would recognise the breakaway regions in Georgia.

Those who quote the numbers game (2 million albanians etc)are missing the point, its about a counries borders and land. Every country has ethnic minorities, we have over 4 million muslims in the UK so does that mean they should have there own state? I think not. Russia is angry at several points, the defence shield, NATO and Kosovo. To them double standards are being played out. As for comments that Russia is not strong i would not like to put that to the test hence why NATO has not got involved in a military way. The only 2 nations who could possible stand up to Russia are the US and UK.

interesting times ahead

Hey, the cocky Poland is being paid to much attention to. But, once Ukraine joins NATO and/or the European Union Poland's role on the political world scene will begin to shrink. My congratulations to the Communist Orthodox Belarus for subjugating the Belars Poles. I hope the Ukrainians do the same to the Ukraine Poles. Viva Albania!

Believing an autoritarian government like Russia would be impressed by any appeasement policies, here immolation of Albanians, is definitely wrong. Poland, as a victim of appeasement policies knows it best. Russia is still using same soviet methods it used in Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan. Those who didn't find nothing wrong then, don't find nothing wrong yet.

I can't believe the Albanians dare to say, you can't compare Serbia vs Kosovo with Georgia vs S. Ossetia.

Why not!!! Because the population numbers are not the same. Why cares. What does that have any to do with anything. All that matters is that Kosovo, a small area of Serbia, broke away from Serbia. And S. Ossetia, a small area of Georgia, broke away from Georgia.

Once Russia and the EU/US have figured out how to settle this, the biggest losers will be Serbia, Kosovo, Georgia and S. Ossetia.

A a whole bunch of Russian and US and EU businessman will get very very rich and laugh themselves silly of how lucky they struck gold. All at the expense of your dead country men and women.

This war is heartbreaking. On the one hand we thank Georgia for its support of Serbia and on the other we that the Russians for political and economic support.

The fact that Russia has donated millions of dollars to repair the destroyed medieval monasteries in Kosovo will not be forgoten.

http://www.serbianna.com/blogs/newspost/?p=265

I like Lech. Wise words from him. The idea that Kosovo is a unique and exceptional issue has always been stupid to me, but I didn't think that a simlar issue essentially using the "Kosovo Precendent" would already arise.
Now I understand why Georgia wanted guarantees on their territory from the US/world before ever giving any recognition or stance on the Kosovo issue.
And it needs to be said that any Serb who supports a Serbian Kosovo is a complete rotten hypocrite if they support Russian interference and possible annexation of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

The count of Tskhinvali civilians killed by Georgian bombardment and ethnical cleansing that began on Friday the 8th of August is now 2000. Obviously this figure is not final as efforts are now chiefly concentrated on saving those who are still alive and remain under the rubble of houses.
Russian introduced new forces in South Ossetia on the 9th of August (the next day) to stop the complete assassination of the South Ossetian people in Tskhinvali, after Georgian forces broke through the demarcation line established in 1992. Presently, the city is in ruins and desperate efforts are being made by Russia to accommodate and offer medical assistance to the civilian population of South Ossetia. 34 thousand residents of South Ossetia have fled to North Ossetia (Russian Territory) to find refugee from the acridities that they had faced during the recent days. Stories of South Ossetian eye witnesses are horrendous revealing numerous cases of overt slaughter of children, women, aged and disabled seeking shelter in underground basement of houses into which Georgian soldiers threw hand grenades. The basements of houses were the only shelter from the incessant shelling of residential districts by heavy mortar and rocket fire.
The military infrastructure of Georgia was attacked by Russian aircraft following Georgia’s use of aircraft, heavy artillery, and rocket units in its destruction of Tskhinvali. Russian troops crossed the border of South Ossetia on the 9th of August to enforce its peacekeeping contingent following the assassination of 12 of its peacekeepers and the remorseless destruction of civilian population in Tskhinvali that began a day before. Russian forces now proceed to extrude all Georgian military forces beyond the demarcation line established in 1992. No bombing of Georgian cities as claimed by Georgian news reports and strongly supported by the western media have taken place other than the areas containing Georgian military infrastructure in which case some unavoidable damage has occurred to civilian buildings.
Russia has announced that it will address The Hague court as Georgia’s action abrogated international law. The murder of thousands of South Ossetians “citizen of Georgia” is nothing other than pure ethnical cleansing and was intended to drive the people of South Ossetia off its territory and deprive it of any signs of Ossetians. Georgia for Georgians was the motto of the former Georgian president Gamsakhudi that began the slaughter in 1992 and it remains the slogan of Saakashvili today.

Regretfully, lop sided information is reaching the western world claiming Russian troops are attacking Georgia. Little or no mention is made of why Russia introduced additional forces in South Ossetia. Russia’s peacekeeping contingent was twelve times outmatched in number and lacked any heavy weapon systems compared to the well prepared intruding Georgian military forces. The limited contingents of Russian peacekeepers was not capable of stopping the massacre of civilians in Tskhinvali nor protect its own limited contingent that was attacked by a squall of rocket blasts in the first minutes of the attack.
127 US military instructors engaged in the training of Georgian military contingent, prier to the beginning of the onslaught on South Ossetia, are now speedily leaving the country. Georgia has increased its military expenditures in the recent years by 30 times mainly assisted by gratuitous US support.

The heated polemics supporting Georgia’s becoming a member of NATO have received a clear answer. Russia will never allow any maniac to terrify or murder the people of South Ossetia or Abkhazia and will do all to restore peace on these war torn territories. Just recently, the prime minister of Russia Mr. Putin has put forward a bid of 500 million US dollars to restore the dwellings, schools, kindergartens, hospitals and infrastructure of South Ossetia totally destroyed by the Georgian bombardment.
Presently, the aim of Russian troops is to impel Georgian military forces to return to the demarcation line established and approved by the UN and sign an agreement forbidding all use of weapons.
Georgians are limited in their information sources as opposing TV channels have been closed down and Russia internet sites providing their account of the happenings have been cut off.

Those who said Kosovo would not set a precedent must feel pretty unintelligent. After the Georgian miscalculation, the Russians just made sure of this. I have great sympathy for both the Georgians and the Abkhaz, but Saakashvilli must definitely be faulted since he tried to pull off an Operation Storm type maneuver at the slightest excuse or banal provocation. The Abkhaz and S. Ossetians had been warning about this, and this was evident by the Georgian military buildup, rhetoric,over the last years, and the military actions last Friday.

The U.S. probably knew about this, and who ever advised on giving a green light, should think of a new career. Very careless, and misguided, albeit, I am not shocked given the many failings and countless miscalculations of the Bush Administration.

The so-called Western Saakashvilli has set back reconciliation to a point where talking about territorial integrity or reunification becomes almost absurd. Very sad day for Georgia and for long term peace. For the Abkhaz and S. Ossetians, it will create a combination of cynicism and over-confidence that may limit democratization and mean that key issues such as the refugee (IDP's, depending on who you ask) question will continue to linger. At best a good lesson, and I hope new leadership in Georgia reflects this.

The international community strongly support the victims in their justifiable need to defend themselves. The UNSC must condemn and punish violators of the peace. Russia's "inat" must be dealt with in an appropriate way. Recognize Chechnia.

Serb camp is supporting Russia, but they forget that Russia is helping Kosova in this case. If serbia tries same thing as Georgia, serbia will be punished and forced to give up more territory. Russia wins something in this done deal, so will Kosova and WEST. serbia wins nothing.

One of the first things everyone was saying back when the Kosovo separation was happening was; South Ossetia and Abkhazia will be next.

The Kosovo separate established a precendent for anyone and everyone who has any sort of beef with their country and give them a green light to try an separate.

We got exactly what we all expected to get.

@ nr 8

You are Romanian as I am maori (NOT)

Adrian

"I knew that albanians on this site used to pretend they are americans, germans or french, now it seems someone chose a romanian mask. "

Haha, I thought as much, I saw the "Viva Albania!" and the pro-Orthodox talk and just couldn't take it too seriously, though I didn't want to presume and give the guy a change, I suppose, but it also sometimes happens that I write before I think.

Besides, I knew many Romanians during my student days, and judging by their stances, they would never say something like that.

Romanian

"To the Serb-loving Pole"

1) On what do you base that?
2) What would that have to do with anything anyway?

"And exactly why is not my comment intelligent? "

Because subjugation of ethnic minorities is something that was done in the 1800's and 1900's, I would have thought you would be a little bit more up to date with your thinking, unless you were frozen under ice for 100 years, then never mind what I said.

"Ukraine has more people and a lot more territory than Poland, plus it has a highly strategic position, right next to Russia. It is way more important than Poland."

So what? How does that make Ukraine more important? Does that mean Holland and Belgium are not important as far as the EU is concerned?
If Ukraine joins the EU/NATO they will be an equal partner, no more, no less.

"I hope that will go on until complete assimilation into the Belarussian and Ukrainian nations."

Why do you say that? We have been living on those lands since time before time and only lost them to the Soviet Union after 1945 (aside from the partitions, which were just as illegal) and pose no threat to anybody, why should we be assimilated? Is it some Orthodox Christian brotherhood thing or do you just have something against us Poles? Maybe we should assimilate our Ukrainian, Belarussian, German, Kashubian and Silesian minorities too? Oh wait, I forgot, Polonization stopped almost 100 years ago and we respect their rights today!

Peter, you're wasting your time:)
I knew that albanians on this site used to pretend they are americans, germans or french, now it seems someone chose a romanian mask.
Most romanians don't even distinguish between ukrainians and russians, they are all thrown in the same bucket. I have never met a romanian in my life to have to say anything like that about ukrainians and the abusive treatment of the romanian minority in Ukraine, soviet rapture of north Bucovina, Barstroe channel, Serpent's island etc. are enough reasons for everybody to have a romanian-ukrainian relation as it is today (not good).
For most of romanians there is no orthodox brotherhood, except with the greeks and the Constantinopole patriarchate and a little with the serbs, we have been buchered and deported by "orthodox russian brothers" enough. Also, as you might know the orthodox church in Ukraine is split between many factions, having the russian patriarchate trying to imose itself. Practically between the Romanian orthodox church and Moscow patriarchate we currently have an ongoing "war" in which regards rep of Moldova.

Peter, i don`t know where this "romanian" lives or what he is, but i can assure you that we have ABSOLUTELY no problem with your country or with your population.

This August Saakashvili tried what tudjaman has done 13 years ago! It was a brave adventure, but Medvedev and Putin were no Milosevic!
So by now it is clear that Russia has won! Georgiawill have to forgot its "sovegegnity" over South Ossetia and Abkhazia for a long, long time. Its NATO nad EU ambitions are squatered. The last ting EU and NATO countries will want is ruined state on a hot faultline! And sadly, the popularity of the pro-western government will plumet! After all people want war ONLY when it means a quick victory! When the clouds are lifted nad the rubble settles, many Georgeans may opt for the relative safety of a pro-russian government!

Svabo,
many more are laughing, not only US/Russian bussinesmen.
Germany is laughing its head off. The Albanians are back into the play and Serbs are once again, on their knees (not for much longer I feel). "Germany supports rights of the minorities" !
My oppinion is that Germany's is a worse hypocricy than that one of the US who doesn't even distuinguish between Serbs, K-Albanians or whomever else.

The current Russian war against Georgia is not a consequence of the independence of Kosovo, since Russia would attack Georgia anyway, Kosovo being independent or not.

What Russia really wants is to expand its borders beyond the borders of old Russian Federated Socialist Republic by annexing Abkhazia, South Ossetia and latelly Transnistria, giving it a valuable territory that could be used as a launch pad for nuclear missiles to America and Western Europe, as the same way that happened in the launch bases of Crimea until the dissolution of the Soviet Union in the end of 1991.

I really do not understand why the Serbian posters are so jubilant. This just fulfills the prophecy that the Russian stance on Kosovo was for the separation of the two Georgian provinces.
Where do you think this is going to lead, the only way to keep them from being a "frozen conflict" is to broker a deal with the West. That leaves Serbia stabbed in the back plus robbed of their energy resources.
But not to worry Russia will take care of their old friends who will become a subserviant class to Russia.

Dear posters

How can you be so ignorant, or play like you are ignorant?! I don't beleive you don't know that everything going on in Kosovo, Serbia, Osetia, Georgia, Russia has to do with the intentions of Russia to have as much as possible territories under its control.
People, don't be so harsh and please start to think about thousands of suffering civilians. Politics can be acceptable unless it is not becoming assault and risking civilians. Is Russia thinking about Osetian people or how to have Osetia under its control?!
So deplorable...

The big picture is what US and the rest of the "Free" world is doing to help it's Georgian "Friends"?...nothing.
Precisely what they will do for "inDependent" KosovO. Recognition of KosovO never had much support in US and was based on the "fast one' pulled by this (outgoing) administration. As soon as it is revisited, and in a spirit of reversing previous administration's mistakes, that shameful decision will too go by the way side. In reality it already has. It is obvious that nothing changed in/on and around KosovO, not to mention lack of world recognition for the puppet state. The good thing is that once this is over it will be over for good. Serbia will become part of EU with KosovO within Serbian borders and 10 years from now, once the criminal element is cleard with the blessing of EU, all this will become part of history.

Kosovo has no resemblance to S.Ostesia, but i can see mirror view of Kosovo being Georgia as Russia like Serbia is going after someone else's territory.

The world is not stupid Russia cant pull something like this and expect nothing to put the blame on Georgia.

Georgia was in S.Ostesia since the begging of the Year waiting for the Georgian government to take one shot and then for Russia to flatten Georgia.

Its unacceptable and America and the EU most get on the case to sort the Russians out.

Jorge,

I beg to differ with you. All Russia accomplished, by falling into a trap, was to get itself a new NATO neighbor. How can anyone now blame Georgia for accepting an invitation to join the all powerful club called NATO.

In the meantime, Russia has to figure out how to keep the price of Oil from falling another $32 a barrel. Russia thought, by starting a war with Georgia, that the world would panic and drive up the price of Oil. Well, Russia figured wrong and now Oil, as of today, is at $114 a barrel, down from $146 a barrel just a few short weeks ago. It seems that Russia panicked when its Oil revenues tanked (no pun intended) by 20% and decided to start a little war in order to prop up the price of oil. So, Russia picked on someone she knew she could defeat. Little did Russia know that she only helped accelerate the plummet in Oil. Experts say Oil is heading for $80 per barrel.

Thank you Russia!

Kosovo is lost for good and Serbia will never join the EU unless it gives up Kosovo. France, Germany, the UK will condition Serbia's accession. Once these countries have recognized Kosovo independece they cannot withdraw the recognitions. Believing otherwise is silly.

Romanian

"Do you want me to write in Romanian? "

Sorry, I can't speak Romanian.

"I don't like Poles because they are Catholic. The Catholic church is very anti-Orthodox."

I am Polish and I have nothing against Orthodox Christians. I don't know any Poles who have anything against Orthodox.

"I also don't like Poles because in the past they have fought several occupying wars against Moldova (as you might know Moldovans are Romanians)"

I am struggling to think of a single time when Poles and Moldavians went to war with each other. In fact, I can only recall times when we fought together against the Turks. Sorry, but as far as Polish-Romanian history goes, we have stood together against common threats (Islam, Communism and Imperialism). Unless you can provide me with an example, I don't agree.

"When the Slavs came to Kosovo they stole the land from the Byzantine Empire which means the Greeks are the original inhabitants of Kosovs."

As if the Latins (Romans) and Germanic people (Vikings, Saxons, Teutons, Goths etc.) did not conquer and settle in regions inhabited by other people. Romanians were invaded by the Saxons and the Romans too, both who left their mark on architecture and culture, so what makes the Slavs so different from those two? That's European history, man, the three biggest tribes conquered and tried to influence other tribes, does not mean that we should be hated today for something that happened hundreds of years before we were even born!

"And his NATO dreams are probably over.
(Ataman, 10 August 2008 16:50)"

I still think the same way, but taking a look at Russia's behavior over the next two days, who knows? While I know that NATO won't confront Russia in war, NATO might just accept Georgia using this as some kind of pretext for it.

adrian

I think he is, he's probably quite young and has read more than he has experienced when it comes to people outside of Romania, which is understandable, because I think most people are like that at some stage (16-20).

First of all, Janusz Wojciechowski is not a member of Polish People's Party, the party which is now in the ruling coalition with Civic Platform. He was expelled from his party in 2006 because he changed his political affiliation in European Parliament - his new political group is Union for a Europe of the Nations, which is eurosceptical and conservative. Moreover, he is not an expert in the international affairs. In Poland, he worked in Supreme Chamber of Control and has no clue about international reality. I am not even sure, if he knows any foreign languages...

Regarding Lech Walesa, he is marginal person in Polish political life (actually, nobody listens his opinions in Poland). He is a very poor educated person, therefore I don't expect from him any detailed opinion on any political issue. Furthermore, I think he lost touch with reality long ago...

If someone is trying to draw parallels between Kosovo and South Ossetia than I take it the Russian should bomb Serbia and roll their tanks through Beograd.
They should refuse any peace talks and any offers of ceasefire.
What do you think of this scenario?
Is fanny how the Russian mention the right of the local population for independence.
Also their do mention that the people in that region had two referendum and more than 90% are in favour of independence.
If this is the right of a province with less than 100.000 habitants, why is not the same for Kosovo?
This situation proves exactly what the Albanian’s have been saying for many years now.
The Russian do not care about freedom, democracy, human right and that don’t care about peace in the Balkans. And never mind the right of the people for independence.
They just use the chink heads in Beograd for their political interest and for destabilizing the entire region.
If they dreaming that somehow their going to have the same influence in the world as in the old time of USSR, soon they will start having nightmares.
The civilized world is been very supportive and tolerant to the Russians. Is the time they start making a few clear points to the ex-spies of Kremlins.

Kosovo is similar to Georgia but, North Mitrovica is similar to South Ossetia.
As the United States Institute for Peace says, "No solution for Kosovo can last without a solution for Mitrovica."
http://www.usip.org/pubs/usipeace_briefings/2006/0724_mitrovica.html
Serbs number only 130,000 of Kosovo's nearly two million population. Half of Kosovo's Serbs live in North Mitrovica and its hinterland up to the border of Serbia proper.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2007/08/mil-070810-voa06.htm

KOSOVO’S INDEPENDENCE SETS A PRECEDENT FOR FURTHER BLOODSHED

Russia is gradually returning its say in world matters, though recent events in Georgia, supportive of massive western propaganda, silencing or distorting the truth of what happened in South Ossetia are exhaustively labeling Russia an Empire of Evil willing to annex foreign territories.
Russia opposed providing independence to Kosovo as did over150 other countries members of the UN, quite a number bearing in mind that there are altogether 190. The decision was made by overruling international law which forbids annexation of foreign territory. Following which, strangely enough, Kosovo was not admitted to be a precedent for others by the same discussants.

So the matter of dissolving issues of this character has been left to some uncertain, obscure and ticklish procedure that no one knows of. No one can predict how things will turn out in the other numerous well-know disputes of this kind.

In reality Russia was not directly opposed to Kosovo’s independence as it was to the manner in which independence was provided. There have to be rules in this grievous game. Sometimes, laws do not provide a resolution to a given matter in which case the only way out is to set a “precedent”. Doing this, extreme apprehension should be paid to the fact that this “precedent” automatically becomes a monitor and instigator for separatism for others cases even if this precedent is not recognized by the majority of other countries. You can not say that one case in point is a precedent and other similar ones are not. The people in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and other places of similar context can not comprehend why Kosovo was granted independence and they weren’t. This being the case, the chances left for resolving such problems peacefully are left to a fading chance, whereas a more common outcome becomes warfare or waging endless onslaughts of terrorism.

The precedent was set in Kosovo by the US military blasting resistance out of Serbia. I can imagine that not all territorial disputes have peaceful resolutions; I assume that in some cases force might have to be applied to minimize even more losses. Should this be the case it must be in accord to an internationally determined procedure and not adjudicated by one country or a group of countries.

The question of Kosovo is not all about Kosovo; it is something that any country can face in any turn of its history. Georgia is a very recent and illustrious example. The Ukraine with its lack of consolidation, political deviation seems to be standing in the short line of similar problems. Both Georgia and at least the president of the Ukraine and his coalition see themselves in NATO. The real reason behind this is obvious discord drawn along ethnical lines, which places a serious and haunting threat to their integrity. The Kosovo precedent makes them worry as they anticipate a likewise outcome for themselves. The Baltic countries, having a large Russian population are in the same context; they too stand in opposition to Russia fearing that Russia might be the next one to repeat the “precedent” in the same manner as the Americans did in Kosovo. America, taciturnly backed by European ambiguity quite clearly illustrated how matters of this kind may be resolved.
That Ukraine, even if hypothetically, maintains its probability of being integrated into NATO, may tip the decrepit political equilibrium inside the country, leading to an escalation of nationalistic flag-waving spates on either side of the barricades, many of which we have seen both in Georgia and the Ukraine during their colour revolutions. It would not take much effort to instigate a growth of unmanageable of violence. We all know that it takes minutes to make a brawl and years to settle it. Signs of raveling in matters that never caused the slightest reproach in the past are becoming a bone of contention in the Ukraine. It is not an odd coincidence that the endeavour into NATO by Ukraine comes together with the glorification of former veterans who served in Ukrainian Nazi military formations during WWII. Anybody who opposed Russia at any time in history, even those who fought in the ranks of fascist Germany against Russia, are granted state honours and equaled in rights to true WWII veterans . The slogan of Yushenko and his associates reads: “Anybody who is or was against Russia is our ally”. This, with a huge proportion of the population of Russian heritage; in some regions they significantly outnumber ethnical Ukrainians; any contrived division of interests may be fatal. Russia as in the case of Georgian will again be placed before a serious dilemma of how to protect the interests of ethnical Russians in the Ukraine. Entrance to NATO would enforce one side of the opposition, namely those in confrontation to Russia. Unless the Ukraine chooses a leadership that can countervail the odds dividing the country and find uniting and consolidating ideas valued by both extremes, the shade of Kosovo and Georgia will remain in suspension. Yushenko is not a political leader in the conventional meaning of the word; he supports the interests of ethnical Ukrainians whereas Yanukovich is inclined to support the Russian orientated segment of the Ukrainian population. This division has a very serious explosive element.
Now, Germany a vital element of European stability has just announced that it will support Georgia’s entrance to NATO. Germany’s conciliatory placement in resolving Kosovo’s dispute following in the steps of transatlantic relations has poured fuel to similar conflicts exasperating either side, South Ossetia and Abkhazia that they can gain independence as a precedent of Kosovo, and Georgia repeating the “precedent” of the US applying military force as an argument in resolving its territorial and ethnical disputes. The Ukraine and the Baltic countries fear that Russia will copy the military aspect of the “precedent” if problems of this kind emerge in their countries.
It is becoming increasingly more obvious that any country that has the slightest hint of similar discord within its territory should automatically be excluded of any military block. If force is required it has to be internationalized. Otherwise, a military block such as NATO with its 5th clause obliging its member states to take active part in any warfare involving its member states or Russia, which wants its interests considered, or any other country, will place a threat to world security.

The countries that have such problems must be extremely patient and ingenious in seeking a resolution, making up for the interests of all its citizens in which case there will never be any need to rely on membership in any military block leaving things to a military toss up of who happens to be the dominating military force.

In any case, there should be a very heedful, effortful, awesome and cumbersome way, in terms of international law and time constrains, for a country to seek independence. This is what we should unite our ranks around to draw out the rules so that nothing similar to what happened in Kosovo, has repeatedly happened in Georgia since 1991, will ever happen anywhere else in the world. We have to talk it out and not fight it out.

To the Serb-loving Pole
And exactly why is not my comment intelligent? Ukraine has more people and a lot more territory than Poland, plus it has a highly strategic position, right next to Russia. It is way more important than Poland. And about the subjugation of Belarus and Ukraine Poles. I hope that will go on until complete assimilation into the Belarussian and Ukrainian nations.

Some poster's obession with seeing Russia giving it back to the "ugly West" led by the USA is very strange to me.

What is good in having Russia staging a war at its borders, when it could stop it any time and seizing the control of the Caspian pipe-line?

I mean, what advantages does it bring to Serbia?

Do you realize that Georgia is exactly in the same position as Serbia with Kosovo?

(I want to state that by no means am I pro-albanian, and that I find albanian dreams in Kosovo even more deluded -than serbian ones-, but I really wish that serbian population could start thinking in a more mature way sometimes...)

Michael John - your oil argument is incorrect on a couple of points. you claim that Russia wanted to panic world markets by threatening the pipeline in Georgia. The BP pipeline you talk about was already closed after the kurdish PKK attacked it, so no oil was flowing through it anyway. As for the price of oil, even if it drops to $60 a barrel, Russia's finances will be in very healthy shape. do some research and crunch some numbers and see for yourself. As for Georgia becoming a NATO member. It has NO hope. with such a volatile situation in Georgia, NATO won't accept a country for which it might have to fight a war with Russia, in Russia's backyard.

Hey, why am I being censored?

Dear Peter Sudyka
I am as Romanian as it gets. Do you want me to write in Romanian?
You were right. I don't like Poles because they are Catholic. The Catholic church is very anti-Orthodox. In the past it has managed to convert Orthodox Christians from Romania and other Eastern European countries by creating a hybrid Greek Catholic church. I also don't like Poles because in the past they have fought several occupying wars against Moldova (as you might know Moldovans are Romanians)
Let me tell you why I don't like the Serbs. It is because in Serbia, in Timocka Krajina Romanians called vlasi (Wallachians) are being denationalized and assimilated.
I am glad Kosovo is independent. In most Kosovo villages there is no Serb living which means that Serbian continuity no longer exists, which means Albanians are indigenous there. When a village is 100% Albanian, Albanians become indigenous. Of course in towns and in few villages there are still Serbs living. All of these towns and villages which are not enclaves surrounded by Albanian settlements should belong to Serbia and not to an independent Kosovo. Anyway Serbs are not the original inhabitants of Kosovo. When the Slavs came to Kosovo they stole the land from the Byzantine Empire which means the Greeks are the original inhabitants of Kosovs.

Michael John,

Good point about Georgia joining NATO. I do believe that if Russia keeps overreacting there will be calls for Georgia and others to join NATO more quickly. Nevertheless, the definition of territorial integrity for Georgia will be redefined and one would not rule formal exclusion of Abkhazia and S. Ossetia as part of a Georgian NATO membership. This could be a new equilibrium point. The Russian troops will stay in these areas and they will remain far beyond the reconciliation point where they can reunite with Georgia.

As far oil, it appears that downward trends were already taking place before last Friday, so don't give the Russians credit. Recall the Russian action was a reaction so the timing with falling oil prices was a coincidence. Oil is falling because of other factors including talk of decreased long and short term demand, more forgiving hurricanes, and talk of supply increases by releasing barrels from the strategic reserve. Russia is not the biggest player in oil and the Europeans know that it has no interest in reducing supply. Any way, the oil is a tangent regarding the conflict, so let s not get distracted here.

Jorge,

Perhaps you are the one that was distracted while reading my post #56, otherwise you would not have missed my points in the second paragraph concerning the huge drop in the price of oil recently. Yes, the Russians attacked Georgia after Oil plummeted in the last few weeks, but that is precisely why they chose to attack now so as to cause a panic in the world oil markets. However, this ploy didn't work and the price of Oil will continue to decline because the Europeans now know that Russia needs them more than they need Russia. Hence, Russia will lose in, two ways, first, it will lose revenue due to the drop in the Oil price, up till now a 22% decrease, as well as the cost of the war with Georgia. Second, it will lose face in the eyes of the world since all Russia accomplished by being a bully was having another NATO country appear at her doorstep.

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with Jovan and Ataman and conclude that you have been watching too much CNN!

I really wish that serbian population could start thinking in a more mature way sometimes...)
(Johnson, 12 August 2008 09:11)

Take away the 'sometimes' and I am with you Johnson.

SO and Kosova have similarities to both of them central Gov.t want to impost their ruel with force: Tbilisi and Belgrade.

It would probably be a good idea to differentiate between So. Ossetia and Abkhazia here. So. Ossetia has a majority of Russian-leaning Ossetians (with Russian passports), Abkhazia is majority Georgian, counting the refugees who want to return. Split the difference - let Russia have the Ossetians, and Georgia gets Abkhazia back, with the right of return for refugees, extensive autonomy, etc. This would salvage Russian pride by forcing Georgia to swallow a bitter pill and also allow it to be seen as upholding the inviolability of international borders. Which, with Chechnya still restive, they most certainly want to do.

Hi Zoran,

It seems as if you didn't read my post #56 very carefully. I never mentioned anywhere in my previous posts the BP pipeline that goes through the region including Georgia. However, I'm quite aware that it has been closed for sometime. You seem to be confusing grandmothers with frogs! btw, As I write, the price of Oil is down another $1.25 and hovering around $113.00 a per barrel. At this price Russia might contemplate invading Abkhazia as well as South Ossetia in order to attempt to keep the price of Oil from plummeting any further. Russia's oil revenues have fallen nearly 25% in the last few weeks. To make the point clearer to you: could you live on only 75% of your current wages, I think not! Same goes for Russia. Like Serbia, Russia is still in arrears when it comes to paying their military. I don't think Russian soldiers will be very enthusiastic in fighting another war of aggression for no pay.

Now let me address your so-called research and number crunching methods. I doubt very much that you have accurate information otherwise your results would not be off by so much. Zoran, would you be so kind as to state where you obtained your data and how current it is. That would be very helpful in determining where you erred.

As far as NATO membership for Georgia is concerned, there has been much discussion for quite sometime now about starting the process just as it has begun for Albania, Croatia and Macedonia. Who knows, perhaps even Serbia may qualify sometime in the distant future, but not until Kosova is a NATO Member. However, make no mistake, Russia's naked aggression will certainly make the time frame much shorter for Georgia. Remember, Just a short time ago Croatia was engaged in a war and she is now on her way to becoming a member of NATO. Therefore, your argument does not hold water.

Michael John - My figures are spot on, unlike your guesses. Take your pick as to where you source your data, there are plenty of choices. Let's choose the IMF for example. Russia has NO debts and is running a surplus, which for the benefit of the financially illiterate such as yourself, means that Russia is earning more than it's spending i.e. it's earning more than it's BUDGETED spending plans. Plus, it also has HUGE foreign currency reserves. So even if the worst came to the worst, it has nearly 0.5 TRILLION dollars of foreign currency reserves to live off before it would have to resort to borrowing more capital. On the other hand, if we take a look at the US, UK, France, etc, they really are up shit creek without a paddle, financially.

So to clarify, seeing as you seem to be confusing grandmothers with frogs if, you run a surplus and your revenue drops 25% and you are STILL in surplus, then your standard of living is UNALTERED.

So, like I said, Russia has a huge cushion to fall back on even if the oil price falls significantly from where it is today (which I think it will).It isn't Russia that needs to worry, but the WEST. To put it buluntly, they are the world's debtors and the rest of the world are their creditors. The US isn't in a position to dictate terms to Russia when it's in such a weak financial position.

"However, make no mistake, Russia's naked aggression will certainly make the time frame much shorter for Georgia. Remember, Just a short time ago Croatia was engaged in a war and she is now on her way to becoming a member of NATO." Unfortunately for you, you've managed to highlight EXACTLY why Croatia is being offered NATO membership and why Georgia won't in the near future. The war in Croatia finished many years ago and hence Croatia is deemed to be a stable country, Georgia is deemed anything but stable. NATO have stated EXPLICTLY that Georgia must settle it's border dispute with Abkhazia and S.O BEFORE it can enter NATO.

Judging by how stupid the current Georgian presidency is, I'm pretty certain that under their leadership, Georgia are going nowhere fast when it comes to NATO.

Zoran,

If the USA and other Western nations are in such a financial crisis, as you so mistakenly claim, then why is Serbia begging us for money? And, why is Serbia so anxious to join the EU if the West is about to go broke? It seems that Tadic and Company should consulte you first before taking the Serbian people down such a foolish path. Now Zoran, do you see how weak your arguments are! While were at it, why is it necessary for the USA to feed a significant portion of the Russian people, especially the elderly, that are destitute.

Carefully chosen news by B92.

Why don't you report that the leaders of former teh eastern block Baltic countries and Poland have asked EU and NATO to condemn the imperialistic aggression of Russia.

or

Carl Bildt Swedish FM who compared Russian aggression with the Nazi German actions?


With the respect to the Polish European MP but he is a joke compared to the leaders of Baltic countries, Poland and Carl Bildt.

Com on B92 you should give up of the Serbianna propaganda if you want to be treated as democratic source.

In democracy the sovereignty of the countries comes from her people. People of Kosova never ever recognized the Serbian sovereignty. Simple like that! All the rest means violence of the democratic rules and war. Is this what you want?

There is nothing “patriotic” you can do about Kosova. The only patriotic thing that you can do is to accept and divulgate the truth: that Serbian borders should have never include Kosova since Kosovars NEVER accepted Serbia as their state, and that now this fact is acknowledged by the World. Period! It pointless that you go and hunt a declaration of insignificant ppl around the world and repackage it to suit you hegemonic plans towards Kosova.

Hey, if the West made a deal with Russia to allow it to snatch South Ossetia & Abkhazia in exchange of Kosovo recognition, fine, have them!

Just as long as you don't touch those pipelines and recognize Kosovo, everything is cool. Those Ossetians and Abkhazi didn't wanna be in Georgia anyway so nothing wrong with that. Hopefully they are happier with Russia.

And while we're at these happy re-unions, might as well let Kosovo unite with Albania too.

The precedent game, right? ;)

Well,time to create new maps right, Let Russians be with Russians and Albanians with Albanians, and Serbian with Serbians. South Ossetia does only create good credentials for Kosovo Albanians. Let Kosova join Albania if South Ossetia join Russia.

Strav, my comments relate to the topic perfectly.

Russia unites with Ossetia and Abkhazia, and Albania unites with Kosovo. Case closed.

Since Russia likes carrots in exchange of vetoes, the West made a sweet deal. You take that Abkhazia and Ossetia which mean nothing to us, and you don't veto Kosovo which means alot to us. You get your pro-Russian people, we get our pro-American people, and everyone's happy.

Besides, what is poor Serbia gonna do with Kosovo anyway. Serbia's negative growth rate and Kosovo's astronomical 2.7% growth rate would make the populations of two countries tied in no time.

You should consider yourself lucky that the Kosovars are contained within their country of Kosovo now. Imagine if they were to spill over to Serbia and overtake you like they're about to own Macedonia.

You'd be sharing Belgrade with the Albos and speaking Shqip right now.

"No one can be denied the right to self-determination, but only within the bounds of common sense,"

self-determination is common sense enough: no foreign soldiers or police, especially given the history. For the record, once Albanians picked up weapons it was a done deal. They are now as many Albanians and Serbs in the Balkans and Serbia is very weak alone after the separations, so even if US had said no, Albanians would not have stopped and Tirana would have eventually opened up it's huge artillery depots. US /EU did not want to see such a mess in the Balkans so they stopped it. Face it, Serbia cannot hold 2 million Albanians against their will, with 4 more million in the border, especially give the history. In Ossetia we're talking about 70,000 people.

Russia is just to show that it matters: Russia is no superpower, Germany alone is stronger than them. And so is Britain, France, China, India and Canada. Even Poland alone will probably beat the Russians. Russia should worry about oil prices and the economy since it's based on minerals alone.

At least the Russians can not say that they don't recognize Kosovo's separation from Serbia. But one has to remember Kosovo has 2 million souls that don't want to live with Serbia, S.Osetia has only 70.000 thousand. (a big difference).

Who is breaking the "International Law" now?
What is this all about? Till now Russia was bllabering about Kosova's independenc and now they are playing with rockets, is that a training or what???
What a shame!
What kind of joke are they trying to put on here today..

south ossetia or abkhazia cant used as a kosovo percedent because no one expect russia will recognize these pseudo states called south ossetia or abkhazia. the west will never accept it.they will never win international recognition how kosovo has won.

"However, you then must allow a sizeable chunk of Albania to join Greece :)"

Haha. 85% of real Greeks are in Greece already. The other 10,000 are old people. The Greeks are well inside Albania, surrounded by Labs and Chams.

On the other hand, they are over 600,000 Albanians in Greece and growing, along with 1 million Turks, Slavs etc etc. Greece also expelled some 30,000 Albanians in WWII so they (200,000 by now) will soon get back when Albanian joins EU.

So, who's worried, Albania or Greece?

Hey, the cocky Poland is being paid to much attention to. But, once Ukraine joins NATO and/or the European Union Poland's role on the political world scene will begin to shrink. My congratulations to the Communist Orthodox Belarus for subjugating the Belars Poles. I hope the Ukrainians do the same to the Ukraine Poles. Viva Albania!

Mr. bmrusila.

I don't know if you know this but the sun does not circle around Serbia, but it is the other way around. Secondly, the more languages you speak the better you are. For example, I speak your and can understand you when you curse at me but, you can not to the same. Thirdly, don't worry about the population growth among Albanians we make them we can feed them.

It is unfortunate that this conflict exploded between russia and georgia which resulted a lost of lives and property.

Georgia is not an enemy but a friend who also supported serbia's territorial integrity.

The WEST lead by the US should be blamed and should be accountable.

The international community strongly support the victims in their justifiable need to defend themselves. The UNSC must condemn and punish violators of the peace. Russia's "inat" must be dealt with in an appropriate way. Recognize Chechnia.

'Recognizing Kosovo will bring nothing but trouble. No one can be denied the right to self-determination, but only within the bounds of common sense," he was quoted as saying at the time.

Walesa stressed in his statements to the Polish media that Kosovo was "with its irresponsible behavior, causing new divisions in Europe and globally and undermining international relations".

Well said Lech! The arrogant and irresponsible US has opened a Pandora's box which will cause more misery and war all over the world. I suppose the US military industrial complex is happy about this, and it seems they are still pulling the strings of all American governments, both Republican and Democrat.
On another note, what Saakashvili did on the opening day of the Olympics, firing missiles into a city and killing hundreds of civilians, is a blatant war crime. Karadzic never even contemplated doing something of this sort, even though Sarajevo could have easily been completely flattened. Will Saskashvili face justice in the Hague or any other criminal 'court'?? No, of course not. He is a puppet of the Americans, and they protect their puppets very well. As long as you are an obedient stooge, you can commit war crimes, ethnic cleansing, even genocide, all you like and they will hail you as a 'freedom fighter' or a 'democrat'. This is how the Americans operate. A Canadian friend of mine once told me that what the US has become is 'far worse than the Soviet Union'.
The decline of the American empire is very welcome to the world and international relations. I look forward to further and more rapid decline of this corrupt empire, and the rise of Russia. It will help us immensely.
Cheers!!

Just trying to gather what the Serbs are saying. They say that Russia has the right to get its troops inside Georgia because the South Ossetians are Russians.
Then a simple parallelism can be made. That is, that if Albania had sent its own troops and army to Kosova then according to the Serbs it would have been ok since in Kosova Albanians were being killed.
I am amazed as to how often in such short periods of time, the Serbs change their stories.
Russia is right to defend international law, but Russia is also right to break international law. Why? Because someone else broke it before. Well someone else also defended international law. So the excuse the Russians and the Serbs have is a pretty lame one. It is lame because both of these countries have time and time again broken and raped international law. (Serbia does it on a daily basis by hiding Mladic). Once they're done breaking international law and they're cornered, they paint themselves as champions and defenders of international law. Talk about hypocrisy, and yet these countries are the first ones to point their fingers to the hypocrisy of other countries while shamelessly they are doing the same things the accuse others of.

Comparing Kosova with South Ossetia is the stupidiest comment someone can make especially from a "retired" "polititian" like Valesa. He is a trade union guy....)))
Can someone tell me what is the number of the population of South Ossetia? I heared the Russian Ambassador at the UN saying 100.000....I mean one hundred thousand and not a million as the Serbs here might want to be by adding a zero))) South Ossetia can be compared with Northern Mitrovica.

Well, well, well... Seems that the West is reaping what it sowes. Funny how the Kosovo UDI was "a unique case" in EU/US opinion, yet the world thinks otherwise. It is impossible to live in the 21st century and try to use the "do as I say, not as I do" attitude that the EU/US has used for Kosovo. Are the Western leaders such bobbleheads that they thought noone would notice their support for an UDI and that the rest of the world's population will just forget about their own separtist aspirations?
It's funny reading about the posts on this subject, though extremely tragic are the deaths of the innocent civilians (all civilians from both sides). Are the Western supporters and K-Albanians experiencing cognitive disonance? How can they say they want an independent Kosovo without sympathizing with the breakaway regions of Georgia? How can the K-Albanians sympathize with the Georgian's? How can the West criticize Russia? Did not the EXACT same thing happen in Serbia/Kosovo in 1999?!? Please spare me the self righteous ideaology and thinking that K-Albanians are somehow superior and worthy of the UDI while the rest of the world is not. You either are for UDI and self determination, or you are for Internation Law and Order. There is NO middle ground in this... no "Special cases"

Funckaes, You're a funny guy :) Of course Kosovo can join Albania. However, you then must allow a sizeable chunk of Albania to join Greece :)

Of course, by recognising Kosovo some USA’s lapdogs made precedent which is now very useful for all who want independence. Russia was warning all the time that this is going to happen but Russophobes decided to ignore this fact by creating silly explanation for Kosovo calling it sui generis case. Sui generis naturally turned to be pure failure because people got sick of being treated as idiots and continuously undermined by “powerful” international political “elite”.

So, after all Russia has all the rights to claim its province back since Georgia lost its credibility by killing so many civilians in only one day. The death toll is way too high to just forget it and make a peace with Georgia like nothing has happened. There will be no peace possible any soon, so Russia will rightfully take the region under its control. Furthermore, South Ossetia is not the only break away region, there are more to come.

It is just sad that knowing all these, Poland anyway decided to recognise Kosovo. And for what reason? Just to oppose Russia by all means (over Serbia’s back), to please their masters from USA without gaining anything for itself. Oh, yes, Poland will gain that shield as a huge thanks from the USA for being so cooperative. It was weak decision by Poland and once again opportunity to express their Russophobe stand.

Hey, if the West made a deal with Russia to allow it to snatch South Ossetia & Abkhazia in exchange of Kosovo recognition, fine, have them!

Just as long as you don't touch those pipelines and recognize Kosovo, everything is cool. Those Ossetians and Abkhazi didn't wanna be in Georgia anyway so nothing wrong with that. Hopefully they are happier with Russia.

And while we're at these happy re-unions, might as well let Kosovo unite with Albania too.

The precedent game, right? ;)
(Funcakes, 10 August 2008 14:19)

Your comments do not relate to the topic at all.

Serb camp is supporting Russia, but they forget that Russia is helping Kosova in this case. If serbia tries same thing as Georgia, serbia will be punished and forced to give up more territory. Russia wins something in this done deal, so will Kosova and WEST. serbia wins nothing.

Russia said before this war was started "if you want Kosova you should give up from Ukraine and Georgia".
So Serbias desicion to hope in "Russias veto" is wrong because Russia balance America in region in this way not by oppositing Kosovas independence.Maybe this act can anticipete Kosovas recognition by Russia

Believing an autoritarian government like Russia would be impressed by any appeasement policies, here immolation of Albanians, is definitely wrong. Poland, as a victim of appeasement policies knows it best. Russia is still using same soviet methods it used in Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan. Those who didn't find nothing wrong then, don't find nothing wrong yet.

To the Serb-loving Pole
And exactly why is not my comment intelligent? Ukraine has more people and a lot more territory than Poland, plus it has a highly strategic position, right next to Russia. It is way more important than Poland. And about the subjugation of Belarus and Ukraine Poles. I hope that will go on until complete assimilation into the Belarussian and Ukrainian nations.

The current Russian war against Georgia is not a consequence of the independence of Kosovo, since Russia would attack Georgia anyway, Kosovo being independent or not.

What Russia really wants is to expand its borders beyond the borders of old Russian Federated Socialist Republic by annexing Abkhazia, South Ossetia and latelly Transnistria, giving it a valuable territory that could be used as a launch pad for nuclear missiles to America and Western Europe, as the same way that happened in the launch bases of Crimea until the dissolution of the Soviet Union in the end of 1991.

I really do not understand why the Serbian posters are so jubilant. This just fulfills the prophecy that the Russian stance on Kosovo was for the separation of the two Georgian provinces.
Where do you think this is going to lead, the only way to keep them from being a "frozen conflict" is to broker a deal with the West. That leaves Serbia stabbed in the back plus robbed of their energy resources.
But not to worry Russia will take care of their old friends who will become a subserviant class to Russia.

Kosovo has no resemblance to S.Ostesia, but i can see mirror view of Kosovo being Georgia as Russia like Serbia is going after someone else's territory.

The world is not stupid Russia cant pull something like this and expect nothing to put the blame on Georgia.

Georgia was in S.Ostesia since the begging of the Year waiting for the Georgian government to take one shot and then for Russia to flatten Georgia.

Its unacceptable and America and the EU most get on the case to sort the Russians out.

Dear posters

How can you be so ignorant, or play like you are ignorant?! I don't beleive you don't know that everything going on in Kosovo, Serbia, Osetia, Georgia, Russia has to do with the intentions of Russia to have as much as possible territories under its control.
People, don't be so harsh and please start to think about thousands of suffering civilians. Politics can be acceptable unless it is not becoming assault and risking civilians. Is Russia thinking about Osetian people or how to have Osetia under its control?!
So deplorable...

And herein lies the supreme irony. Both Russia and the West have indeed got themselves into a real mess over Kosovo, and we can see the results all too clearly now.

Georgia has been sacrificed by the West on the grounds that what it did in 1999, Russia has a right to do now. The danger is that Serbia and Georgia might both now find themselves sacrificed by Washington and Moscow in the name of a compromise on a long term settlement. Kosovo is recognised as independent in return for Georgia losing South Ossetia and Abkhazia to Russia.

At this point honour is restored to the US and Russia in the name of two 'unique cases', and everythign continues along as before, except for Serbia and Georgia.

Remember, countries don't have friends, they have interests.

Apparently, it's not just Poland that's realizing Kosovo was a precedent for S. Ossetia. Even some officials in the US State Department are realizing this is Russia's answer to "if it's good for you, it's good for us"

Take a look at the article in the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/world/europe/10diplo.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

“There is no possibility of drawing NATO or the international community into this,” said a senior State Department official in a conference call with reporters.

- ... "there is a growing feeling among some officials in the Bush administration that perhaps the United States cannot have it all, and may have to choose its priorities, particularly when it comes to Russia."

The worst part about this, is that while Georgia is a strong US ally, we (the US) are hanging them out to dry. There is no interest in helping them, there is no interest in coming to their aid. We have basically left them at the mercy of Moscow. Let this just show you that unless your country end with

- itain, or
- srael

you're expendable to us. And the worst part about it is that we've abandoned a real country to carve out a fake one.

Funcakes,

Serbia's negative growth rate and Kosovo's astronomical 2.7% growth rate would make the populations of two countries tied in no time.

-With such birth rate you create only poverty with no real vision how to provide prosperous future for al these babies that will eventually grow up. Oh I get it, the more of them will be sent to the West in order to earn for the entire family which may number some 20-30 members, at least. There is nothing to be proud off, on the contrary.

Then you continued by saying “You'd be sharing Belgrade with the Albos and speaking Shqip right now.”

-You must be joking, right? There is no way that Serbs would ever speak your language as you could never gain any important positions with such low rate of educated.

You should face the fact that Albanians just used to do nothing else but only asking for some rights that they are allegedly deprived off.

I would say consider your self lucky at the moment because you are backed by the USA and the EU and got temporarily peace of Serbian land in order to exercise a bit how to govern the province and experience self-governing. That won’t last for long, that you can be certain.

I have posted before that this is one reason for the conflict, Russia said it would recognise the breakaway regions in Georgia.

Those who quote the numbers game (2 million albanians etc)are missing the point, its about a counries borders and land. Every country has ethnic minorities, we have over 4 million muslims in the UK so does that mean they should have there own state? I think not. Russia is angry at several points, the defence shield, NATO and Kosovo. To them double standards are being played out. As for comments that Russia is not strong i would not like to put that to the test hence why NATO has not got involved in a military way. The only 2 nations who could possible stand up to Russia are the US and UK.

interesting times ahead

Funcakes - "Serbia's negative growth rate and Kosovo's astronomical 2.7% growth rate would make the populations of two countries tied in no time." Where did you get your mickey mouse ideas from?

Let me guess, from the Kosovo dept of propaganda who also try to let the world believe they have their own state and passports? nobody is going to take your passport seriously, especially when Goofy is on the front of it.

Dan - "they will never win international recognition how kosovo has won." explain that concept to me. Are you trying to say that the world's "democracies" recognise you. We've heard this argument hundreds of times, but unfortunately you Albo's have problems counting. First, India as the world's largest democracy says NO to Kosovo, and it's population dwarfs all 43 countries TOGETHER. So more people in the "democratic" world disagree with you. Second, remind me again how many countries recognise you? ONLY 43. What do all the others countries like Brazil Argentina, South Africa, etc,etc say. Let me remind you - NO.

And the final piece in the Jigsaw, a UN seat. Do you have one? NO. Therefore you aren't a country according to a mojority of the world's population and democracies.

I wish you luck on your NATO membership though. You're perfect for the Americans to be used as cannon fodder.

I just forgot to add something addressed to funca

there are appr. 100.000 Albanians living in the serbian capital, and they live there quite well and safe.
nothing you could say about the Serbs living among Albanians in the serbian southern province.

don´t you think that this says a lot about our communities?

and there are even some Albanians from southern Serbia coming to Belgrade for medical treatment!

no matter what you write, you can´t bend the truth to absurdity.

I like Lech. Wise words from him. The idea that Kosovo is a unique and exceptional issue has always been stupid to me, but I didn't think that a simlar issue essentially using the "Kosovo Precendent" would already arise.
Now I understand why Georgia wanted guarantees on their territory from the US/world before ever giving any recognition or stance on the Kosovo issue.
And it needs to be said that any Serb who supports a Serbian Kosovo is a complete rotten hypocrite if they support Russian interference and possible annexation of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

This war is heartbreaking. On the one hand we thank Georgia for its support of Serbia and on the other we that the Russians for political and economic support.

The fact that Russia has donated millions of dollars to repair the destroyed medieval monasteries in Kosovo will not be forgoten.

http://www.serbianna.com/blogs/newspost/?p=265

Hey, why am I being censored?

Romanian

"Do you want me to write in Romanian? "

Sorry, I can't speak Romanian.

"I don't like Poles because they are Catholic. The Catholic church is very anti-Orthodox."

I am Polish and I have nothing against Orthodox Christians. I don't know any Poles who have anything against Orthodox.

"I also don't like Poles because in the past they have fought several occupying wars against Moldova (as you might know Moldovans are Romanians)"

I am struggling to think of a single time when Poles and Moldavians went to war with each other. In fact, I can only recall times when we fought together against the Turks. Sorry, but as far as Polish-Romanian history goes, we have stood together against common threats (Islam, Communism and Imperialism). Unless you can provide me with an example, I don't agree.

"When the Slavs came to Kosovo they stole the land from the Byzantine Empire which means the Greeks are the original inhabitants of Kosovs."

As if the Latins (Romans) and Germanic people (Vikings, Saxons, Teutons, Goths etc.) did not conquer and settle in regions inhabited by other people. Romanians were invaded by the Saxons and the Romans too, both who left their mark on architecture and culture, so what makes the Slavs so different from those two? That's European history, man, the three biggest tribes conquered and tried to influence other tribes, does not mean that we should be hated today for something that happened hundreds of years before we were even born!

"And his NATO dreams are probably over.
(Ataman, 10 August 2008 16:50)"

I still think the same way, but taking a look at Russia's behavior over the next two days, who knows? While I know that NATO won't confront Russia in war, NATO might just accept Georgia using this as some kind of pretext for it.

adrian

I think he is, he's probably quite young and has read more than he has experienced when it comes to people outside of Romania, which is understandable, because I think most people are like that at some stage (16-20).

Besides agreeing with Lech Walesa (boy, I bet now few Americans are happy to disagree with him - they instead support some communists http://tinyurl.com/5c3c73 in Kosovo) this recent conflict had nothing to do with Kosovo at begin, but after the end it may create a very different "reality on the ground".

- It was clearly started by Georgians, it was a little tongue-slip on Hungarian Népszabadság I did cite earlier and also on TV.

- The high numbers of civill casualties versus insignificant Russian military losses (14 soldiers) is the proof, indeed Georgians started the conflict by shelling the civilian houses at night.

- Huge private issues are reported around Saakashvili, thank God, not applicable to any major player (thaci/ceku/Tadic/nikolic/etc-etc) in Kosovo-conflict. I cannot confirm these, but looking at his past not impossible.

- Unlike with Ossetia you cannot drive clear ethnic lines between Serbia Proper/Kosovo/Albania. The problem with Kavkaz/Kafkas is not the unclear ethnic lines, but the number of different ethnic elements. While the language of Osets is Indo-Iranian (like Slavic or Albanian), the language of Georgians is a completely separate group and the language of Chechens belongs to Tibetian/Chinese group(!). Mix the situation with Mongol language of Kalmyks and Turkic of Azeris - now you have the Kavkaz problem:

http://tinyurl.com/6zssd9

An interesting link (in Hungarian) is an essay on Népszabadság - one of the most respectable media in Hungary:

http://www.nol.hu/cikk/502877

I am lazy to translate the entire essay (written on August 9), but it's essence is:

"Rút idõzítés" = "Ugly timing" and it's full of criticism of Saakashvili's politics, esp. because the assault was timed for the Olympics game.

The most critical is the end of the article, comparing Saakashvili with bin Laden:

"Ennél rútabb idõzítést az al-Kaida sem tudott volna kiötölni." = "Even Al-Qaeda could not do a more ugly timing".

Interestingly, the article is somewhat critical of John McCain - he is the ONLY American politician, who openly voiced support. (My opinion: McCain is completely ignorant about the backgrounds - and his stand does not speak good about him. If he ever would have a morsel of our support, it's gone by now. With 100%: three more voters for Obama!)

The article is critical about the Russians, too. Of course, Népszabadság openly supports Kosovo UDI. They say, Russians do everything their best to prevent Kosovo recognition and thus, not to be blamed of double-standard they cannot openly support Osetia independence - so they did it until now under the cover, they did not act honestly by openly supporting the territorial integrity of Georgia and their best interest is to keep Georgia under pressure by supporting the separatists.

The article is acknowledging, that now there is a completely new "reality on the ground": because of Georgian actions, Russian citizen did die. Most Osetians are double citizens. This gives Russia a blank mandate to "support own citizens" by all means. Russian forces are in Osetia under UN mandate (like NATO in Kosovo), and there is no known limitation, HOW MANY of them may be present.

Basically - it looks like - now Saakashvili with his irresponsible action "freed" Russia from being bound to certain rules.

K-Albanians, say "thank you" to Saakashvili and his American "expat advisors" (= private adventurers) for this act. It seems - according the article - they screwed you real good and set the "wild bear" free.


Otherwise still waiting from some Americans here the answer: why do they sudden disagree with such people as Lech Walesa, but do support these

http://tinyurl.com/5c3c73
http://tinyurl.com/6dk2ef

communists? Where is the logic? I asked it at least 3-4 times, here it is again:

"Why is communism good, if it comes from anti-Russian/ant-Serb side and anti-communism bad if it supports Russia or Serbia"?

So, after all Russia has all the rights to claim its province back since Georgia lost its credibility by killing so many civilians in only one day. The death toll is way too high to just forget it and make a peace with Georgia like nothing has happened. There will be no peace possible any soon, so Russia will rightfully take the region under its control. Furthermore, South Ossetia is not the only break away region, there are more to come.

(bmrusila, 10 August 2008 14:54)

They won't. They will openly speak over and over to "support Georgia's territorial integrity" - but station huge forces in Osetia and Abhazia. Saakashvili won't succeed, so he probably will fly. Either at the next election... or anyway. And his NATO dreams are probably over.

People are so self righteous and nations can everyone spell WAR. That is where we are all heading to WW2 will look like minor insignificant incident you're all blind!

Romanian

Thank you for sharing that very intelligent viewpoint with us.

Romanian

"To the Serb-loving Pole"

1) On what do you base that?
2) What would that have to do with anything anyway?

"And exactly why is not my comment intelligent? "

Because subjugation of ethnic minorities is something that was done in the 1800's and 1900's, I would have thought you would be a little bit more up to date with your thinking, unless you were frozen under ice for 100 years, then never mind what I said.

"Ukraine has more people and a lot more territory than Poland, plus it has a highly strategic position, right next to Russia. It is way more important than Poland."

So what? How does that make Ukraine more important? Does that mean Holland and Belgium are not important as far as the EU is concerned?
If Ukraine joins the EU/NATO they will be an equal partner, no more, no less.

"I hope that will go on until complete assimilation into the Belarussian and Ukrainian nations."

Why do you say that? We have been living on those lands since time before time and only lost them to the Soviet Union after 1945 (aside from the partitions, which were just as illegal) and pose no threat to anybody, why should we be assimilated? Is it some Orthodox Christian brotherhood thing or do you just have something against us Poles? Maybe we should assimilate our Ukrainian, Belarussian, German, Kashubian and Silesian minorities too? Oh wait, I forgot, Polonization stopped almost 100 years ago and we respect their rights today!

Adrian

"I knew that albanians on this site used to pretend they are americans, germans or french, now it seems someone chose a romanian mask. "

Haha, I thought as much, I saw the "Viva Albania!" and the pro-Orthodox talk and just couldn't take it too seriously, though I didn't want to presume and give the guy a change, I suppose, but it also sometimes happens that I write before I think.

Besides, I knew many Romanians during my student days, and judging by their stances, they would never say something like that.

This August Saakashvili tried what tudjaman has done 13 years ago! It was a brave adventure, but Medvedev and Putin were no Milosevic!
So by now it is clear that Russia has won! Georgiawill have to forgot its "sovegegnity" over South Ossetia and Abkhazia for a long, long time. Its NATO nad EU ambitions are squatered. The last ting EU and NATO countries will want is ruined state on a hot faultline! And sadly, the popularity of the pro-western government will plumet! After all people want war ONLY when it means a quick victory! When the clouds are lifted nad the rubble settles, many Georgeans may opt for the relative safety of a pro-russian government!

Dear Peter Sudyka
I am as Romanian as it gets. Do you want me to write in Romanian?
You were right. I don't like Poles because they are Catholic. The Catholic church is very anti-Orthodox. In the past it has managed to convert Orthodox Christians from Romania and other Eastern European countries by creating a hybrid Greek Catholic church. I also don't like Poles because in the past they have fought several occupying wars against Moldova (as you might know Moldovans are Romanians)
Let me tell you why I don't like the Serbs. It is because in Serbia, in Timocka Krajina Romanians called vlasi (Wallachians) are being denationalized and assimilated.
I am glad Kosovo is independent. In most Kosovo villages there is no Serb living which means that Serbian continuity no longer exists, which means Albanians are indigenous there. When a village is 100% Albanian, Albanians become indigenous. Of course in towns and in few villages there are still Serbs living. All of these towns and villages which are not enclaves surrounded by Albanian settlements should belong to Serbia and not to an independent Kosovo. Anyway Serbs are not the original inhabitants of Kosovo. When the Slavs came to Kosovo they stole the land from the Byzantine Empire which means the Greeks are the original inhabitants of Kosovs.

The big picture is what US and the rest of the "Free" world is doing to help it's Georgian "Friends"?...nothing.
Precisely what they will do for "inDependent" KosovO. Recognition of KosovO never had much support in US and was based on the "fast one' pulled by this (outgoing) administration. As soon as it is revisited, and in a spirit of reversing previous administration's mistakes, that shameful decision will too go by the way side. In reality it already has. It is obvious that nothing changed in/on and around KosovO, not to mention lack of world recognition for the puppet state. The good thing is that once this is over it will be over for good. Serbia will become part of EU with KosovO within Serbian borders and 10 years from now, once the criminal element is cleard with the blessing of EU, all this will become part of history.

If someone is trying to draw parallels between Kosovo and South Ossetia than I take it the Russian should bomb Serbia and roll their tanks through Beograd.
They should refuse any peace talks and any offers of ceasefire.
What do you think of this scenario?
Is fanny how the Russian mention the right of the local population for independence.
Also their do mention that the people in that region had two referendum and more than 90% are in favour of independence.
If this is the right of a province with less than 100.000 habitants, why is not the same for Kosovo?
This situation proves exactly what the Albanian’s have been saying for many years now.
The Russian do not care about freedom, democracy, human right and that don’t care about peace in the Balkans. And never mind the right of the people for independence.
They just use the chink heads in Beograd for their political interest and for destabilizing the entire region.
If they dreaming that somehow their going to have the same influence in the world as in the old time of USSR, soon they will start having nightmares.
The civilized world is been very supportive and tolerant to the Russians. Is the time they start making a few clear points to the ex-spies of Kremlins.

Michael John,

Good point about Georgia joining NATO. I do believe that if Russia keeps overreacting there will be calls for Georgia and others to join NATO more quickly. Nevertheless, the definition of territorial integrity for Georgia will be redefined and one would not rule formal exclusion of Abkhazia and S. Ossetia as part of a Georgian NATO membership. This could be a new equilibrium point. The Russian troops will stay in these areas and they will remain far beyond the reconciliation point where they can reunite with Georgia.

As far oil, it appears that downward trends were already taking place before last Friday, so don't give the Russians credit. Recall the Russian action was a reaction so the timing with falling oil prices was a coincidence. Oil is falling because of other factors including talk of decreased long and short term demand, more forgiving hurricanes, and talk of supply increases by releasing barrels from the strategic reserve. Russia is not the biggest player in oil and the Europeans know that it has no interest in reducing supply. Any way, the oil is a tangent regarding the conflict, so let s not get distracted here.

Jorge,

Perhaps you are the one that was distracted while reading my post #56, otherwise you would not have missed my points in the second paragraph concerning the huge drop in the price of oil recently. Yes, the Russians attacked Georgia after Oil plummeted in the last few weeks, but that is precisely why they chose to attack now so as to cause a panic in the world oil markets. However, this ploy didn't work and the price of Oil will continue to decline because the Europeans now know that Russia needs them more than they need Russia. Hence, Russia will lose in, two ways, first, it will lose revenue due to the drop in the Oil price, up till now a 22% decrease, as well as the cost of the war with Georgia. Second, it will lose face in the eyes of the world since all Russia accomplished by being a bully was having another NATO country appear at her doorstep.

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with Jovan and Ataman and conclude that you have been watching too much CNN!

"Mr. bmrusila."
(ALBANIANKOSOVAR, 10 August 2008 18:42)

That's wrong. We know the little secret, "bmrusila" is not "Mr."

---------------------

Secondly, the more languages you speak the better you are. For example, I speak your and can understand you when you curse at me but, you can not to the same.
(ALBANIANKOSOVAR, 10 August 2008 18:42)

This is one of VALID K-Albanian arguments, actually. Albanian language deserves to be learned. Otherwise it's difficult to live in one place together. Serbs should be €ncouraged and who desires to learn it, should be given more opportuniti€$. For instance, Serbia can ask €.U. or U$A to help in that matter. Let's $€€, how much talk will they (EU/US) implement in d€€d$. You know, what I mean, the "€" and "$" signs are not a typo here.

Will look very good for the EU bureaucrats, too - and discharge some of their anti-Serbian ammunition. Apropos, ammunition, the money allocated to send arms to Kosovo could be rather used for above reason, there are way to much arms in private hands on Kosovo territory already.

---------------------

there are appr. 100.000 Albanians living in the serbian capital, and they live there quite well and safe. nothing you could say about the Serbs living among Albanians in the serbian southern province. (...snip...) and there are even some Albanians from southern Serbia coming to Belgrade for medical treatment!
(Jovan, 10 August 2008 21:55)

This is 100% true. But it's not on CNN.

I can't believe the Albanians dare to say, you can't compare Serbia vs Kosovo with Georgia vs S. Ossetia.

Why not!!! Because the population numbers are not the same. Why cares. What does that have any to do with anything. All that matters is that Kosovo, a small area of Serbia, broke away from Serbia. And S. Ossetia, a small area of Georgia, broke away from Georgia.

Once Russia and the EU/US have figured out how to settle this, the biggest losers will be Serbia, Kosovo, Georgia and S. Ossetia.

A a whole bunch of Russian and US and EU businessman will get very very rich and laugh themselves silly of how lucky they struck gold. All at the expense of your dead country men and women.

One of the first things everyone was saying back when the Kosovo separation was happening was; South Ossetia and Abkhazia will be next.

The Kosovo separate established a precendent for anyone and everyone who has any sort of beef with their country and give them a green light to try an separate.

We got exactly what we all expected to get.

Svabo,
many more are laughing, not only US/Russian bussinesmen.
Germany is laughing its head off. The Albanians are back into the play and Serbs are once again, on their knees (not for much longer I feel). "Germany supports rights of the minorities" !
My oppinion is that Germany's is a worse hypocricy than that one of the US who doesn't even distuinguish between Serbs, K-Albanians or whomever else.

@ nr 8

You are Romanian as I am maori (NOT)

The count of Tskhinvali civilians killed by Georgian bombardment and ethnical cleansing that began on Friday the 8th of August is now 2000. Obviously this figure is not final as efforts are now chiefly concentrated on saving those who are still alive and remain under the rubble of houses.
Russian introduced new forces in South Ossetia on the 9th of August (the next day) to stop the complete assassination of the South Ossetian people in Tskhinvali, after Georgian forces broke through the demarcation line established in 1992. Presently, the city is in ruins and desperate efforts are being made by Russia to accommodate and offer medical assistance to the civilian population of South Ossetia. 34 thousand residents of South Ossetia have fled to North Ossetia (Russian Territory) to find refugee from the acridities that they had faced during the recent days. Stories of South Ossetian eye witnesses are horrendous revealing numerous cases of overt slaughter of children, women, aged and disabled seeking shelter in underground basement of houses into which Georgian soldiers threw hand grenades. The basements of houses were the only shelter from the incessant shelling of residential districts by heavy mortar and rocket fire.
The military infrastructure of Georgia was attacked by Russian aircraft following Georgia’s use of aircraft, heavy artillery, and rocket units in its destruction of Tskhinvali. Russian troops crossed the border of South Ossetia on the 9th of August to enforce its peacekeeping contingent following the assassination of 12 of its peacekeepers and the remorseless destruction of civilian population in Tskhinvali that began a day before. Russian forces now proceed to extrude all Georgian military forces beyond the demarcation line established in 1992. No bombing of Georgian cities as claimed by Georgian news reports and strongly supported by the western media have taken place other than the areas containing Georgian military infrastructure in which case some unavoidable damage has occurred to civilian buildings.
Russia has announced that it will address The Hague court as Georgia’s action abrogated international law. The murder of thousands of South Ossetians “citizen of Georgia” is nothing other than pure ethnical cleansing and was intended to drive the people of South Ossetia off its territory and deprive it of any signs of Ossetians. Georgia for Georgians was the motto of the former Georgian president Gamsakhudi that began the slaughter in 1992 and it remains the slogan of Saakashvili today.

Regretfully, lop sided information is reaching the western world claiming Russian troops are attacking Georgia. Little or no mention is made of why Russia introduced additional forces in South Ossetia. Russia’s peacekeeping contingent was twelve times outmatched in number and lacked any heavy weapon systems compared to the well prepared intruding Georgian military forces. The limited contingents of Russian peacekeepers was not capable of stopping the massacre of civilians in Tskhinvali nor protect its own limited contingent that was attacked by a squall of rocket blasts in the first minutes of the attack.
127 US military instructors engaged in the training of Georgian military contingent, prier to the beginning of the onslaught on South Ossetia, are now speedily leaving the country. Georgia has increased its military expenditures in the recent years by 30 times mainly assisted by gratuitous US support.

The heated polemics supporting Georgia’s becoming a member of NATO have received a clear answer. Russia will never allow any maniac to terrify or murder the people of South Ossetia or Abkhazia and will do all to restore peace on these war torn territories. Just recently, the prime minister of Russia Mr. Putin has put forward a bid of 500 million US dollars to restore the dwellings, schools, kindergartens, hospitals and infrastructure of South Ossetia totally destroyed by the Georgian bombardment.
Presently, the aim of Russian troops is to impel Georgian military forces to return to the demarcation line established and approved by the UN and sign an agreement forbidding all use of weapons.
Georgians are limited in their information sources as opposing TV channels have been closed down and Russia internet sites providing their account of the happenings have been cut off.

Peter, you're wasting your time:)
I knew that albanians on this site used to pretend they are americans, germans or french, now it seems someone chose a romanian mask.
Most romanians don't even distinguish between ukrainians and russians, they are all thrown in the same bucket. I have never met a romanian in my life to have to say anything like that about ukrainians and the abusive treatment of the romanian minority in Ukraine, soviet rapture of north Bucovina, Barstroe channel, Serpent's island etc. are enough reasons for everybody to have a romanian-ukrainian relation as it is today (not good).
For most of romanians there is no orthodox brotherhood, except with the greeks and the Constantinopole patriarchate and a little with the serbs, we have been buchered and deported by "orthodox russian brothers" enough. Also, as you might know the orthodox church in Ukraine is split between many factions, having the russian patriarchate trying to imose itself. Practically between the Romanian orthodox church and Moscow patriarchate we currently have an ongoing "war" in which regards rep of Moldova.

Peter, i don`t know where this "romanian" lives or what he is, but i can assure you that we have ABSOLUTELY no problem with your country or with your population.

Those who said Kosovo would not set a precedent must feel pretty unintelligent. After the Georgian miscalculation, the Russians just made sure of this. I have great sympathy for both the Georgians and the Abkhaz, but Saakashvilli must definitely be faulted since he tried to pull off an Operation Storm type maneuver at the slightest excuse or banal provocation. The Abkhaz and S. Ossetians had been warning about this, and this was evident by the Georgian military buildup, rhetoric,over the last years, and the military actions last Friday.

The U.S. probably knew about this, and who ever advised on giving a green light, should think of a new career. Very careless, and misguided, albeit, I am not shocked given the many failings and countless miscalculations of the Bush Administration.

The so-called Western Saakashvilli has set back reconciliation to a point where talking about territorial integrity or reunification becomes almost absurd. Very sad day for Georgia and for long term peace. For the Abkhaz and S. Ossetians, it will create a combination of cynicism and over-confidence that may limit democratization and mean that key issues such as the refugee (IDP's, depending on who you ask) question will continue to linger. At best a good lesson, and I hope new leadership in Georgia reflects this.

Jorge,

I beg to differ with you. All Russia accomplished, by falling into a trap, was to get itself a new NATO neighbor. How can anyone now blame Georgia for accepting an invitation to join the all powerful club called NATO.

In the meantime, Russia has to figure out how to keep the price of Oil from falling another $32 a barrel. Russia thought, by starting a war with Georgia, that the world would panic and drive up the price of Oil. Well, Russia figured wrong and now Oil, as of today, is at $114 a barrel, down from $146 a barrel just a few short weeks ago. It seems that Russia panicked when its Oil revenues tanked (no pun intended) by 20% and decided to start a little war in order to prop up the price of oil. So, Russia picked on someone she knew she could defeat. Little did Russia know that she only helped accelerate the plummet in Oil. Experts say Oil is heading for $80 per barrel.

Thank you Russia!

Kosovo is lost for good and Serbia will never join the EU unless it gives up Kosovo. France, Germany, the UK will condition Serbia's accession. Once these countries have recognized Kosovo independece they cannot withdraw the recognitions. Believing otherwise is silly.

First of all, Janusz Wojciechowski is not a member of Polish People's Party, the party which is now in the ruling coalition with Civic Platform. He was expelled from his party in 2006 because he changed his political affiliation in European Parliament - his new political group is Union for a Europe of the Nations, which is eurosceptical and conservative. Moreover, he is not an expert in the international affairs. In Poland, he worked in Supreme Chamber of Control and has no clue about international reality. I am not even sure, if he knows any foreign languages...

Regarding Lech Walesa, he is marginal person in Polish political life (actually, nobody listens his opinions in Poland). He is a very poor educated person, therefore I don't expect from him any detailed opinion on any political issue. Furthermore, I think he lost touch with reality long ago...

Some poster's obession with seeing Russia giving it back to the "ugly West" led by the USA is very strange to me.

What is good in having Russia staging a war at its borders, when it could stop it any time and seizing the control of the Caspian pipe-line?

I mean, what advantages does it bring to Serbia?

Do you realize that Georgia is exactly in the same position as Serbia with Kosovo?

(I want to state that by no means am I pro-albanian, and that I find albanian dreams in Kosovo even more deluded -than serbian ones-, but I really wish that serbian population could start thinking in a more mature way sometimes...)

Michael John - your oil argument is incorrect on a couple of points. you claim that Russia wanted to panic world markets by threatening the pipeline in Georgia. The BP pipeline you talk about was already closed after the kurdish PKK attacked it, so no oil was flowing through it anyway. As for the price of oil, even if it drops to $60 a barrel, Russia's finances will be in very healthy shape. do some research and crunch some numbers and see for yourself. As for Georgia becoming a NATO member. It has NO hope. with such a volatile situation in Georgia, NATO won't accept a country for which it might have to fight a war with Russia, in Russia's backyard.

I really wish that serbian population could start thinking in a more mature way sometimes...)
(Johnson, 12 August 2008 09:11)

Take away the 'sometimes' and I am with you Johnson.

SO and Kosova have similarities to both of them central Gov.t want to impost their ruel with force: Tbilisi and Belgrade.

It would probably be a good idea to differentiate between So. Ossetia and Abkhazia here. So. Ossetia has a majority of Russian-leaning Ossetians (with Russian passports), Abkhazia is majority Georgian, counting the refugees who want to return. Split the difference - let Russia have the Ossetians, and Georgia gets Abkhazia back, with the right of return for refugees, extensive autonomy, etc. This would salvage Russian pride by forcing Georgia to swallow a bitter pill and also allow it to be seen as upholding the inviolability of international borders. Which, with Chechnya still restive, they most certainly want to do.

Hi Zoran,

It seems as if you didn't read my post #56 very carefully. I never mentioned anywhere in my previous posts the BP pipeline that goes through the region including Georgia. However, I'm quite aware that it has been closed for sometime. You seem to be confusing grandmothers with frogs! btw, As I write, the price of Oil is down another $1.25 and hovering around $113.00 a per barrel. At this price Russia might contemplate invading Abkhazia as well as South Ossetia in order to attempt to keep the price of Oil from plummeting any further. Russia's oil revenues have fallen nearly 25% in the last few weeks. To make the point clearer to you: could you live on only 75% of your current wages, I think not! Same goes for Russia. Like Serbia, Russia is still in arrears when it comes to paying their military. I don't think Russian soldiers will be very enthusiastic in fighting another war of aggression for no pay.

Now let me address your so-called research and number crunching methods. I doubt very much that you have accurate information otherwise your results would not be off by so much. Zoran, would you be so kind as to state where you obtained your data and how current it is. That would be very helpful in determining where you erred.

As far as NATO membership for Georgia is concerned, there has been much discussion for quite sometime now about starting the process just as it has begun for Albania, Croatia and Macedonia. Who knows, perhaps even Serbia may qualify sometime in the distant future, but not until Kosova is a NATO Member. However, make no mistake, Russia's naked aggression will certainly make the time frame much shorter for Georgia. Remember, Just a short time ago Croatia was engaged in a war and she is now on her way to becoming a member of NATO. Therefore, your argument does not hold water.

Michael John - My figures are spot on, unlike your guesses. Take your pick as to where you source your data, there are plenty of choices. Let's choose the IMF for example. Russia has NO debts and is running a surplus, which for the benefit of the financially illiterate such as yourself, means that Russia is earning more than it's spending i.e. it's earning more than it's BUDGETED spending plans. Plus, it also has HUGE foreign currency reserves. So even if the worst came to the worst, it has nearly 0.5 TRILLION dollars of foreign currency reserves to live off before it would have to resort to borrowing more capital. On the other hand, if we take a look at the US, UK, France, etc, they really are up shit creek without a paddle, financially.

So to clarify, seeing as you seem to be confusing grandmothers with frogs if, you run a surplus and your revenue drops 25% and you are STILL in surplus, then your standard of living is UNALTERED.

So, like I said, Russia has a huge cushion to fall back on even if the oil price falls significantly from where it is today (which I think it will).It isn't Russia that needs to worry, but the WEST. To put it buluntly, they are the world's debtors and the rest of the world are their creditors. The US isn't in a position to dictate terms to Russia when it's in such a weak financial position.

"However, make no mistake, Russia's naked aggression will certainly make the time frame much shorter for Georgia. Remember, Just a short time ago Croatia was engaged in a war and she is now on her way to becoming a member of NATO." Unfortunately for you, you've managed to highlight EXACTLY why Croatia is being offered NATO membership and why Georgia won't in the near future. The war in Croatia finished many years ago and hence Croatia is deemed to be a stable country, Georgia is deemed anything but stable. NATO have stated EXPLICTLY that Georgia must settle it's border dispute with Abkhazia and S.O BEFORE it can enter NATO.

Judging by how stupid the current Georgian presidency is, I'm pretty certain that under their leadership, Georgia are going nowhere fast when it comes to NATO.

Zoran,

If the USA and other Western nations are in such a financial crisis, as you so mistakenly claim, then why is Serbia begging us for money? And, why is Serbia so anxious to join the EU if the West is about to go broke? It seems that Tadic and Company should consulte you first before taking the Serbian people down such a foolish path. Now Zoran, do you see how weak your arguments are! While were at it, why is it necessary for the USA to feed a significant portion of the Russian people, especially the elderly, that are destitute.

Kosovo is similar to Georgia but, North Mitrovica is similar to South Ossetia.
As the United States Institute for Peace says, "No solution for Kosovo can last without a solution for Mitrovica."
http://www.usip.org/pubs/usipeace_briefings/2006/0724_mitrovica.html
Serbs number only 130,000 of Kosovo's nearly two million population. Half of Kosovo's Serbs live in North Mitrovica and its hinterland up to the border of Serbia proper.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2007/08/mil-070810-voa06.htm

KOSOVO’S INDEPENDENCE SETS A PRECEDENT FOR FURTHER BLOODSHED

Russia is gradually returning its say in world matters, though recent events in Georgia, supportive of massive western propaganda, silencing or distorting the truth of what happened in South Ossetia are exhaustively labeling Russia an Empire of Evil willing to annex foreign territories.
Russia opposed providing independence to Kosovo as did over150 other countries members of the UN, quite a number bearing in mind that there are altogether 190. The decision was made by overruling international law which forbids annexation of foreign territory. Following which, strangely enough, Kosovo was not admitted to be a precedent for others by the same discussants.

So the matter of dissolving issues of this character has been left to some uncertain, obscure and ticklish procedure that no one knows of. No one can predict how things will turn out in the other numerous well-know disputes of this kind.

In reality Russia was not directly opposed to Kosovo’s independence as it was to the manner in which independence was provided. There have to be rules in this grievous game. Sometimes, laws do not provide a resolution to a given matter in which case the only way out is to set a “precedent”. Doing this, extreme apprehension should be paid to the fact that this “precedent” automatically becomes a monitor and instigator for separatism for others cases even if this precedent is not recognized by the majority of other countries. You can not say that one case in point is a precedent and other similar ones are not. The people in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and other places of similar context can not comprehend why Kosovo was granted independence and they weren’t. This being the case, the chances left for resolving such problems peacefully are left to a fading chance, whereas a more common outcome becomes warfare or waging endless onslaughts of terrorism.

The precedent was set in Kosovo by the US military blasting resistance out of Serbia. I can imagine that not all territorial disputes have peaceful resolutions; I assume that in some cases force might have to be applied to minimize even more losses. Should this be the case it must be in accord to an internationally determined procedure and not adjudicated by one country or a group of countries.

The question of Kosovo is not all about Kosovo; it is something that any country can face in any turn of its history. Georgia is a very recent and illustrious example. The Ukraine with its lack of consolidation, political deviation seems to be standing in the short line of similar problems. Both Georgia and at least the president of the Ukraine and his coalition see themselves in NATO. The real reason behind this is obvious discord drawn along ethnical lines, which places a serious and haunting threat to their integrity. The Kosovo precedent makes them worry as they anticipate a likewise outcome for themselves. The Baltic countries, having a large Russian population are in the same context; they too stand in opposition to Russia fearing that Russia might be the next one to repeat the “precedent” in the same manner as the Americans did in Kosovo. America, taciturnly backed by European ambiguity quite clearly illustrated how matters of this kind may be resolved.
That Ukraine, even if hypothetically, maintains its probability of being integrated into NATO, may tip the decrepit political equilibrium inside the country, leading to an escalation of nationalistic flag-waving spates on either side of the barricades, many of which we have seen both in Georgia and the Ukraine during their colour revolutions. It would not take much effort to instigate a growth of unmanageable of violence. We all know that it takes minutes to make a brawl and years to settle it. Signs of raveling in matters that never caused the slightest reproach in the past are becoming a bone of contention in the Ukraine. It is not an odd coincidence that the endeavour into NATO by Ukraine comes together with the glorification of former veterans who served in Ukrainian Nazi military formations during WWII. Anybody who opposed Russia at any time in history, even those who fought in the ranks of fascist Germany against Russia, are granted state honours and equaled in rights to true WWII veterans . The slogan of Yushenko and his associates reads: “Anybody who is or was against Russia is our ally”. This, with a huge proportion of the population of Russian heritage; in some regions they significantly outnumber ethnical Ukrainians; any contrived division of interests may be fatal. Russia as in the case of Georgian will again be placed before a serious dilemma of how to protect the interests of ethnical Russians in the Ukraine. Entrance to NATO would enforce one side of the opposition, namely those in confrontation to Russia. Unless the Ukraine chooses a leadership that can countervail the odds dividing the country and find uniting and consolidating ideas valued by both extremes, the shade of Kosovo and Georgia will remain in suspension. Yushenko is not a political leader in the conventional meaning of the word; he supports the interests of ethnical Ukrainians whereas Yanukovich is inclined to support the Russian orientated segment of the Ukrainian population. This division has a very serious explosive element.
Now, Germany a vital element of European stability has just announced that it will support Georgia’s entrance to NATO. Germany’s conciliatory placement in resolving Kosovo’s dispute following in the steps of transatlantic relations has poured fuel to similar conflicts exasperating either side, South Ossetia and Abkhazia that they can gain independence as a precedent of Kosovo, and Georgia repeating the “precedent” of the US applying military force as an argument in resolving its territorial and ethnical disputes. The Ukraine and the Baltic countries fear that Russia will copy the military aspect of the “precedent” if problems of this kind emerge in their countries.
It is becoming increasingly more obvious that any country that has the slightest hint of similar discord within its territory should automatically be excluded of any military block. If force is required it has to be internationalized. Otherwise, a military block such as NATO with its 5th clause obliging its member states to take active part in any warfare involving its member states or Russia, which wants its interests considered, or any other country, will place a threat to world security.

The countries that have such problems must be extremely patient and ingenious in seeking a resolution, making up for the interests of all its citizens in which case there will never be any need to rely on membership in any military block leaving things to a military toss up of who happens to be the dominating military force.

In any case, there should be a very heedful, effortful, awesome and cumbersome way, in terms of international law and time constrains, for a country to seek independence. This is what we should unite our ranks around to draw out the rules so that nothing similar to what happened in Kosovo, has repeatedly happened in Georgia since 1991, will ever happen anywhere else in the world. We have to talk it out and not fight it out.