Fighting continues, Russia sinks Georgian ship

Perhaps Georgia is planning some other strategy. We will see soon what all is about, is it real withdrawal of Georgian troops or just a moment of taking deep breath before launching a new series of attacks.

One thing is for sure, Georgia has lost all possibilities to claim Ossetia back under its borders. South Ossetia is on its way of final separation from Georgia.

Shakasvili made a fool of himself by calculating so wrongly that the USA and EU will help Georgia by any means.

alright albanians, it took georgia three days to surrender and it took you three days to come up with hope that russia's formidable humanitarian intervention means it will recognize kosovo, instead of that it means the flimsy kosovo special unique case argument of your owners has been debunked. well, what it actually means is that russia proved being right all along about kosovo opening up doors for napalm like heating of frozen conflicts besides being a huge security risk for europe. lets see the wave of recognitions after south ossetia shall we.
btw tadic, serbia's version of saakashvili is more likely to recognize you than russia. russia remains the boa constrictor around the neck of the stillborn. in fact russia's the one that turned the rosy cheeked abomination into a stillborn. now the best thing, would be for russia to annex south ossetia. then our albanians might want to get themselves annexed to albania. then we sit back and watch them have that argument with their masters nato, eu, u.s.
didn’t russians use the phrase pandora's box? they told everyone willing to listen. the bear is an extremely dangerous animal especially when provoked and its having trouble stopping itself right now. lesson to the wise, don’t try it again. i somehow don’t think georgia will.
for mr. bush who complained somewhere about the size of russian bombers used, that’s his argument today, he let go of territorial integrity speak :) george, if you think russian planes are big, try b1, b2, b52 for size. they were used to brutally assaulted my country with disproportionate force just because it was guarding its territorial integrity against separatists, once upon a time when i was a kid. used to assault me, and every living being in serbia.
and with that, although that is not what i want to express on public forums. but my heart, all of it, goes out to all who suffer in the war tonight.

The US/EU should be blamed on this war coz they fuelled it by providing Georgia with arms supplies and promises of military support / back up but didnt came.

It is unfortunate that many lives have been lost on both sides which George Bush / WEST should be held accountable.

I largely agree with Jevic's appraisal of the situation, but not entirely. Yes the west armed and funded Sakashvili's military and rose revolution and made promises that they could never sa tisfy. Yes Mr. Sakasshvili was likely given the plans for his own Croatian inspired operation storm by the death architects at Nato; but it was his choice to engage the separatists militarily and he has thee blood of Civilians on his hands. Russia tried to resolve this peacefully but was blocked at the security counsel; their mistake in this was not giving Georgia an ultimatum in the first place removing all doubt about their intentions in the case that their peace keepers were fired upon and the Ossetians were moved upon. Because they did not make it perfectly clear, the Georgians chose to go on a bad adventure and now there is an Orthodox country (Georgia was Orthodox even before the Russians) that is in ruins and will likely resent the Russians even more. The Russians have failed the people of Georgia and their resolve to be anti Russian will only increase as a result of the Russian retaliation.

Meanwhile Albanian posters gloat about all of this never considering that the West is only a fair weather friend and will not endanger income or millitary when their smaller friends are in trouble

Marko

You should be aware that there are reports coming from RT Russia Today (via Vesti FM) that the Gruzi were attacking a church where dozens of people were sheltering and burnt it down with everyone inside. The methods of killing women and children is too shocking to summarise here. Watch RT for the latest news.

Sound familiar to the Nazis and Ustasha but not to any Christian ideals at all.

Sakhashvili has betrayed the Gruzi. Unlike the Armenians they don't seem to appreciate their very existence today and in the past is only as a result of Russia protecting them from the Turks.

The strange thing is that Ossetia-Alania is home to the Alans. This is the homeland of the real King Arthur of native British legend. A legendary hero steeped in myth so central to the native British peoples struggle against the Nemci. The Serbs have many real people hailed as mythical heroes in similar struggles with invaders.

You would have to think that the BBC being the mouthpiece of Britain would be more accommodating to the plight of the people and lands from which their native hero hails from, but not so.

Excellent news, maybe now a ceasefire can be implemented. I just hope Russia will stop bombing Georgia, because that is definitely going too far!

Georgia has really gone and shot themselves in the foot.

First of all, the chances of integrating Abkhazia and South Ossetia into Georgia again have all gone to hell, I really would not be surprised if this ends up the same way as Kosovo did, as Georgia has given the world a reason to look at these frozen conflicts from a different perspective.

Secondly, Georgia has also lost all chances of joining NATO. Firstly, no country with ethnic conflict is taken into the organization if the government has an aggressive policy towards them, secondly, only America, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are anti-Russian enough to still push for their membership, though I doubt that strategic NATO partners, like Germany, Italy, Britain and France, will take Georgia seriously anymore as a potential future member (even at the last NATO summit, they were against the idea, now this last act of Georgian barbarism will solidify their opinions on this matter).

So can someone please explain to me, what was the point of Georgia's attack on Ossetia? Did they think NATO would run to their aid? Did they think they stood a chance in hell against Russia? Did they think they would integrate their separatist regions by force?

I foresee that this Shakashvilli will soon lose power over Georgia, if this is his political strategy. I truly feel sorry for his people and wish them a far better president than him.

There are reports of probably American mercenaries among the dead Georgian troops in Ossetia. There are claims that many are "blacks" found dead near a school.

Should be pointed out that the Ossetian refugees claim of tanks firing into homes and preventing them from leaving their rubbled houses for water . Pictures show a city annihilated.

I do not believe Russia should stop until it degrades Georgia's potential of doing this again.

The Georgian defense minister is still bragging about how the Israeli and American weapons and training helped them perform. He is also bragging that Georgian forces are still actually in there. So Russia should not stop.

The Russians are aiming at legitimate military targets and the number of Georgian civilians is very low. The ratio of civilian to military is much lower than U.S./NATO operations, for instance and infinitely lower than the Georgians who killed around 2,000 (there are people still buried in the rubble to be found) while none of their civilians had been killed by Ossetians before this savage genocidal attack.

There needs to be war crimes trials for the Georgians involved in this as it was a pure unprovoked attack against civilians.

Found this fine piece of CNN propaganda (hope, no one objects my cross-posting):

http://tinyurl.com/5rjv2z

Please read carefully:

"Georgian soldiers search for victims after bombardments in Gori. A Russian news agency said the death toll was at least 2,000 in the capital of South Ossetia"

Wait, Gori is the birthplace of.... (whom??? Anyone's guess??? ) and it's NOT the capital of South Ossetia. The entire picture suggests, Russian army killed over 2,000 in Gori and the Georgian soldiers are searching for the victims. In the reality, the capital of South Ossetia is Tskhinvali. Here is the "truth", presented to American public.

Gori is the birthplace of იოსებ ბესრიონის სტალინი.

http://tinyurl.com/58l6r3
http://tinyurl.com/6js3qk
http://tinyurl.com/592q8k

That's the railway station of Gori:

http://tinyurl.com/6pstex

Again, just because I "enjoy" that picture of that "gentleman" soooo much:

http://tinyurl.com/6b9eux

Isn't it a lovely city? :(

An other nice portrait from Wiki... http://tinyurl.com/2meeux

It looks, it's lately OK in America to be not just a communist,

http://tinyurl.com/5c3c73
http://tinyurl.com/6dk2ef

but even love stalin - provided it's accompanied with anti-Russian or anti-Serbian propaganda.

An American,Joe Mestas, living in South Ossetia witnessed "running over by tanks of children and women" by the Georgian military and other atrocities along with the complete destruction.

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28788

August 10, 2008, 22:24

American says U.S. and Georgia to answer for violence in South Ossetia

Joe Mestas, American citizen living in South Ossetia, who witnessed everything that happening in the region, talked to RT and blamed U.S. and Georgian leaders for the outbreak of violence.

“I thought that since U.S. is supporting Georgia there would be some control over the situation in South Ossetia and that there would be a peaceful solution to the conflict. But what is happening there now it’s not just war, but war crimes. George Bush and [Georgian president] Mikhail Saakashvili should answere to the crimes that are being committed – the killing of innocent people, running over by tanks of children and women, throwing grenades into cellars where people are hiding,” Joe Mestas said.

“The war is when military fight against military. But the Georgina army is killing innocent civilians. This is genocide,” he added.

Joe

I know that there has been a great deal of provocation from the Russian/South Ossetian side, I do not deny this, but I do criticize Georgia's approach. Instead of counter-insurgency measures by special forces, for example, they chose to level the city with artillery and bombers. That's what I am against.

Regarding my anti-Americanism, it only goes as far as America's foreign policy, that's all. It is a great country (I even have family in Chicago), but their foreign policy in the last 15 years is what I have come to dislike.

Finally, regarding Russia, there is much I am against when it comes to Russia, but stopping Georgian bombardment of civilians is not one of them, no side is right/wrong all of the time, I try to be impartial.

EU/USA/NATO official politics are not directly to blame for this action. Instead, there are three reasons, one very much proven, an other just a rumor (it is a common knowledge I just learned today from firmly "pro-Western" Russians who are normally firmly against the group around Putin) and the third is a fact.

1) Georgia is literally "infested" with American adventurers who have nothing to do with official politics. Closeness to oil, muddy politics, "gold-rush"-like fever on one site, on the other site the "cheapness" of local corruption (easy and cheap to climb up), personal sexual problems (never underestimate these!) attract these losers. They are not equal to "Western"/USA/NATO politics. They have huge involvement in Georgian domestic politics. For them even a small chance of success of such action is a big thing, while failure does not mean much. These circles are very close to Saakashvili.

2) Saakashvili himself is reported to be a "junker". There is no proof, just widespread talk all over the region + Russia + Ukraine. There is/was never official proof, Jelcin had alcohol problem either, but it is now widely accepted.

3) There could be a conflict of interests - like in Ukraine, where the wife of Yuschenko is American.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_E._Roelofs

Oddly, the common stereotype does support the #2.


Regarding the conflict: nothing was expected and the attack came as surprise for everyone. The high level of civilian casualties is explained that

- Civilians were directly targeted
- Russian army wasted 24 hours

The very high number of civilian versus very low number of Russian military casualties is also a proof, who was the initiator of the conflict and what really happened.

"Excellent news, maybe now a ceasefire can be implemented. I just hope Russia will stop bombing Georgia, because that is definitely going too far!

Georgia has really gone and shot themselves in the foot."
(Peter Sudyka, 10 August 2008 15:29)

Indeed, and Russia is going to shoot itself in the foot, too - if they continue any act against the territory of "Georgia Proper". Hope, this won't happen. But after this act, they have all mandate to increase their troops stationed under UN resolution in Abhazia and Osetia as they like.

What is not clear for me, why was the reason behind the fact, port of Poti destroyed. To prevent Georgian fleet to engage Russian fleet as they moved into Abkhazia? To knock down oil revenues of Georgia?

"So can someone please explain to me, what was the point of Georgia's attack on Ossetia? Did they think NATO would run to their aid? Did they think they stood a chance in hell against Russia? Did they think they would integrate their separatist regions by force?"
(Peter Sudyka, 10 August 2008 15:29)

Some American "advisors" who are acting on their own, and the timing with Olympics when everyone in Russia and NATO was away (so probably they won't notice). Very stupid, indeed.


"I foresee that this Shakashvilli will soon lose power over Georgia, if this is his political strategy. I truly feel sorry for his people and wish them a far better president than him."
(Peter Sudyka, 10 August 2008 15:29)

Well, he will fly anyway. Either one or the other way - or both. Wish him a happy family life with his Holland wife and kids and private success outside of politics. He may open a "coffee shop", too, I don't care.

This is what happens when people refuse to negotiate and take unilateral actions. You reap what you sow.

btw tadic, serbia's version of saakashvili is more likely to recognize you than russia. russia remains the boa constrictor around the neck of the stillborn. in fact russia's the one that turned the rosy cheeked abomination into a stillborn.
(smile, 11 August 2008 00:18)

This is wrong.

1) Tadic is not Saakashvili. Look at Saakashvili's human rights record on wiki. The only where they seem to be close is that neither of them will recognize break-away separatist entities. Tadic work is constantly sabotaged by clumsiness of "Western" politics, Saakashvili plays the lap-dog role, but very clumsy way. On the personal level, Tadic is not reported to have any issue.

2) Russia did not do much about Kosovo. In the fact, their moves regarding Kosovo could be significantly more aggressive. They have the mandate to deploy several thousand of their troops near Pristina airport. It did not happen. They blocked probably less, what they could and certainly they did not back SRS.

3) IMO, Jeremic was the boa constructor. He did a terrific job. SRS just exercised their voice. One reason why they lost was lack of support from Russian politicians. As part of their chess game, Russian politicians envision Serbia being in EU as a "fifth column". They don't care less about own people, even less about Kosovo. Nikolic wanted a marriage, but the bride run away.

Bravo, south Ossetia freed from Georgian Stalinist troops.

Ataman,

Wiki seemes to be your Bible. However Wiki is no way neutral. It shows twice as much from the Russian side in a very favorable light. Reading it one gets almost the impression that he reads the "free" Russian media.
So if you read Wiki and both the Russian and Hungarian media than "voila" as say the French you get a biased opinion.
Checking the Hungarian media in the last few days I noticed their pro-Russian stand. Maybe they forgot already the "good old days" under the Russian boot. Maybe they should have the "brotherly" emrace again for a while to regain their sobriety.

Peter,

I like some of your balanced comments on other topics but when it come to anything Russian you seem to defend their actions almost blindly. You also seem to have a problem with the sheer existence of the NATO. Also your deep-seated anti-Americanism seems to match that of Chirac and Schroeder.
But enough of this "introduction" because B92 censure me very easily and faster than other people.
I hope B92 will be gracious enough to allow me to answer your main question...what was the reason behind Georgia's move on Friday?
Well there was a well-planned long string of provocative events from the Russians to push Georgia to do this. The last step, which broke the camel's back was their incitement of the South-Ossetiens to shell nearby Georgian villages with regularity. The Georgians just could not take it any longer. But the main question is this: what is Putin's aim?
It is very clear and simple.
Stop Georgia becoming a NATO member by ALL MEANS. No ex-Soviet republic of prior 1940 (Baltics excluded) is allowed to become a NATO member.
Last fall through her agents Russia spent big money to organize demonstrations and labor disruptions to try to reverse Georgia's pro-Western and pro-NATO course through elections. That attempt failed miserably and Putin feels that there is nothing left but the military option.
But Russians were always clumsy with their military might. They always used it disproportionately like now betraying their imperial, imperialistic motives. The US Administration was quick to point it out.
And now the conclusion and deep desappointment for both you and the Russians: there will be even more push for Georgia's NATO membership. Georgia will become a member despite the reticence of the Germans, who are pretty affraid that by voting for it they will spend a lot of cold nights without Russian gas.

"what is Putin's aim?
It is very clear and simple.
Stop Georgia becoming a NATO member by ALL MEANS."
(Joe, 10 August 2008 20:34)

This is so far the first and only statement where I agree.

Joe,

Your post was confusing to say the least. Neither Peter nor myself support Putin's domestic politics and we regularly disagree with some posters from Russia and more radical Serbs.

American politics lately did not add a bit to the world's stability, just to contrary. Their acts delayed the democracy and prolonged the political life of dictators like Saddam or Miloshevic. There is no "deep-seated anti-Americanism" saying that. To it's shame, America now is what USSR used to be.

My family has a long history of opposing Soviets, so we do oppose this new insanity.

Joe, if you know that much, please work with "Wiki", not try to fight some small guys here on B92. Here is the current article on Wiki about the war, please convince them and contribute:

http://tinyurl.com/62f78x

Just as I stated under #9 Russia's aim to prevent Georgia to become a NATO member by military means get confirmed more and more as time passes. Little Georgia stoped all military action but Russia continues bombing Georgian cities - sofar 15 - and continues its invasion into Central Georgia. Merkel, Sarkozy, the pope and Bush ask Russia to stop otherwise there will be consequences. I don't think Putin will stop. The next days will be dramatic!!

Ida,

Just because somebody is an American citizen it does not mean that he is telling the truth. This "American" is apparently a naturelized Ossetien, who played to his special audience and made it "dramatic". Otherwise RT wouldn't have been interested to "his story". Also knowing your love for America, Bush and allies of America you would not have picked up his story either.
But otherwise Good Evening, Dobro Vecer!

Ataman

"Indeed, and Russia is going to shoot itself in the foot, too - if they continue any act against the territory of "Georgia Proper". Hope, this won't happen."

As you can see, it is not getting any better there. You're right, now both sides have shot each other in the foot. Do you think they will save each others' other ones?

"He may open a "coffee shop", too, I don't care."

I suspect his wife may have had an impact on his rationale as a result of a particular substance which the Dutch consider a normal thing, hehe.

Peter wrote:

Joe

I know that there has been a great deal of provocation from the Russian/South Ossetian side, I do not deny this, but I do criticize Georgia's approach. Instead of counter-insurgency measures by special forces, for example, they chose to level the city with artillery and bombers. That's what I am against.
......

I'd have to agree with Peter on this one. Georgia did not need to kill a fly with a sledgehammer.

I have no love for Russia's policies and now that the war has begun, I truly hope that the Russian 58th army is made to bleed heavily. Still this move by Georgia was simply reckless, stupid and potentially suicidal.

On 10 August 2008 15:29, Peter Sudyka wrote:

"So can someone please explain to me, what was the point of Georgia's attack on Ossetia? Did they think NATO would run to their aid? Did they think they stood a chance in hell against Russia? Did they think they would integrate their separatist regions by force?"

I must admit that I have only followed the events in and around Georgia with half an eye. Never thought it would escalate this fast, and in this manner. Now, to Peters question...

If it wasn't for the fact that Georgia recently had presidential elections, I would have thought it was yet another case of "rallying the people in support of the sitting government". Wars always has that effect. Whether it by Saddam against Iran, Iran against Iraq, Serbia against most of the Balkans, USA against most of the world, or the mess down in Africa.

Maybe it is simply a case of stupidity? Of Saakashvili surrounding himself with Yes-men, that only tells him what he likes to hear (much like Bush do). After a time, that kind of people tend to start believing that they are always right, that they are political geniuses. And it is only later that reality comes crashing down on them - HARD.

Ida,

Just because somebody is an American citizen it does not mean that he is telling the truth. This "American" is apparently a naturelized Ossetien, who played to his special audience and made it "dramatic". Otherwise RT wouldn't have been interested to "his story". Also knowing your love for America, Bush and allies of America you would not have picked up his story either.
But otherwise Good Evening, Dobro Vecer!

Peter,

I like some of your balanced comments on other topics but when it come to anything Russian you seem to defend their actions almost blindly. You also seem to have a problem with the sheer existence of the NATO. Also your deep-seated anti-Americanism seems to match that of Chirac and Schroeder.
But enough of this "introduction" because B92 censure me very easily and faster than other people.
I hope B92 will be gracious enough to allow me to answer your main question...what was the reason behind Georgia's move on Friday?
Well there was a well-planned long string of provocative events from the Russians to push Georgia to do this. The last step, which broke the camel's back was their incitement of the South-Ossetiens to shell nearby Georgian villages with regularity. The Georgians just could not take it any longer. But the main question is this: what is Putin's aim?
It is very clear and simple.
Stop Georgia becoming a NATO member by ALL MEANS. No ex-Soviet republic of prior 1940 (Baltics excluded) is allowed to become a NATO member.
Last fall through her agents Russia spent big money to organize demonstrations and labor disruptions to try to reverse Georgia's pro-Western and pro-NATO course through elections. That attempt failed miserably and Putin feels that there is nothing left but the military option.
But Russians were always clumsy with their military might. They always used it disproportionately like now betraying their imperial, imperialistic motives. The US Administration was quick to point it out.
And now the conclusion and deep desappointment for both you and the Russians: there will be even more push for Georgia's NATO membership. Georgia will become a member despite the reticence of the Germans, who are pretty affraid that by voting for it they will spend a lot of cold nights without Russian gas.

The US/EU should be blamed on this war coz they fuelled it by providing Georgia with arms supplies and promises of military support / back up but didnt came.

It is unfortunate that many lives have been lost on both sides which George Bush / WEST should be held accountable.

Perhaps Georgia is planning some other strategy. We will see soon what all is about, is it real withdrawal of Georgian troops or just a moment of taking deep breath before launching a new series of attacks.

One thing is for sure, Georgia has lost all possibilities to claim Ossetia back under its borders. South Ossetia is on its way of final separation from Georgia.

Shakasvili made a fool of himself by calculating so wrongly that the USA and EU will help Georgia by any means.

I largely agree with Jevic's appraisal of the situation, but not entirely. Yes the west armed and funded Sakashvili's military and rose revolution and made promises that they could never sa tisfy. Yes Mr. Sakasshvili was likely given the plans for his own Croatian inspired operation storm by the death architects at Nato; but it was his choice to engage the separatists militarily and he has thee blood of Civilians on his hands. Russia tried to resolve this peacefully but was blocked at the security counsel; their mistake in this was not giving Georgia an ultimatum in the first place removing all doubt about their intentions in the case that their peace keepers were fired upon and the Ossetians were moved upon. Because they did not make it perfectly clear, the Georgians chose to go on a bad adventure and now there is an Orthodox country (Georgia was Orthodox even before the Russians) that is in ruins and will likely resent the Russians even more. The Russians have failed the people of Georgia and their resolve to be anti Russian will only increase as a result of the Russian retaliation.

Meanwhile Albanian posters gloat about all of this never considering that the West is only a fair weather friend and will not endanger income or millitary when their smaller friends are in trouble

Marko

You should be aware that there are reports coming from RT Russia Today (via Vesti FM) that the Gruzi were attacking a church where dozens of people were sheltering and burnt it down with everyone inside. The methods of killing women and children is too shocking to summarise here. Watch RT for the latest news.

Sound familiar to the Nazis and Ustasha but not to any Christian ideals at all.

Sakhashvili has betrayed the Gruzi. Unlike the Armenians they don't seem to appreciate their very existence today and in the past is only as a result of Russia protecting them from the Turks.

The strange thing is that Ossetia-Alania is home to the Alans. This is the homeland of the real King Arthur of native British legend. A legendary hero steeped in myth so central to the native British peoples struggle against the Nemci. The Serbs have many real people hailed as mythical heroes in similar struggles with invaders.

You would have to think that the BBC being the mouthpiece of Britain would be more accommodating to the plight of the people and lands from which their native hero hails from, but not so.

EU/USA/NATO official politics are not directly to blame for this action. Instead, there are three reasons, one very much proven, an other just a rumor (it is a common knowledge I just learned today from firmly "pro-Western" Russians who are normally firmly against the group around Putin) and the third is a fact.

1) Georgia is literally "infested" with American adventurers who have nothing to do with official politics. Closeness to oil, muddy politics, "gold-rush"-like fever on one site, on the other site the "cheapness" of local corruption (easy and cheap to climb up), personal sexual problems (never underestimate these!) attract these losers. They are not equal to "Western"/USA/NATO politics. They have huge involvement in Georgian domestic politics. For them even a small chance of success of such action is a big thing, while failure does not mean much. These circles are very close to Saakashvili.

2) Saakashvili himself is reported to be a "junker". There is no proof, just widespread talk all over the region + Russia + Ukraine. There is/was never official proof, Jelcin had alcohol problem either, but it is now widely accepted.

3) There could be a conflict of interests - like in Ukraine, where the wife of Yuschenko is American.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_E._Roelofs

Oddly, the common stereotype does support the #2.


Regarding the conflict: nothing was expected and the attack came as surprise for everyone. The high level of civilian casualties is explained that

- Civilians were directly targeted
- Russian army wasted 24 hours

The very high number of civilian versus very low number of Russian military casualties is also a proof, who was the initiator of the conflict and what really happened.

Excellent news, maybe now a ceasefire can be implemented. I just hope Russia will stop bombing Georgia, because that is definitely going too far!

Georgia has really gone and shot themselves in the foot.

First of all, the chances of integrating Abkhazia and South Ossetia into Georgia again have all gone to hell, I really would not be surprised if this ends up the same way as Kosovo did, as Georgia has given the world a reason to look at these frozen conflicts from a different perspective.

Secondly, Georgia has also lost all chances of joining NATO. Firstly, no country with ethnic conflict is taken into the organization if the government has an aggressive policy towards them, secondly, only America, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are anti-Russian enough to still push for their membership, though I doubt that strategic NATO partners, like Germany, Italy, Britain and France, will take Georgia seriously anymore as a potential future member (even at the last NATO summit, they were against the idea, now this last act of Georgian barbarism will solidify their opinions on this matter).

So can someone please explain to me, what was the point of Georgia's attack on Ossetia? Did they think NATO would run to their aid? Did they think they stood a chance in hell against Russia? Did they think they would integrate their separatist regions by force?

I foresee that this Shakashvilli will soon lose power over Georgia, if this is his political strategy. I truly feel sorry for his people and wish them a far better president than him.

"Excellent news, maybe now a ceasefire can be implemented. I just hope Russia will stop bombing Georgia, because that is definitely going too far!

Georgia has really gone and shot themselves in the foot."
(Peter Sudyka, 10 August 2008 15:29)

Indeed, and Russia is going to shoot itself in the foot, too - if they continue any act against the territory of "Georgia Proper". Hope, this won't happen. But after this act, they have all mandate to increase their troops stationed under UN resolution in Abhazia and Osetia as they like.

What is not clear for me, why was the reason behind the fact, port of Poti destroyed. To prevent Georgian fleet to engage Russian fleet as they moved into Abkhazia? To knock down oil revenues of Georgia?

"So can someone please explain to me, what was the point of Georgia's attack on Ossetia? Did they think NATO would run to their aid? Did they think they stood a chance in hell against Russia? Did they think they would integrate their separatist regions by force?"
(Peter Sudyka, 10 August 2008 15:29)

Some American "advisors" who are acting on their own, and the timing with Olympics when everyone in Russia and NATO was away (so probably they won't notice). Very stupid, indeed.


"I foresee that this Shakashvilli will soon lose power over Georgia, if this is his political strategy. I truly feel sorry for his people and wish them a far better president than him."
(Peter Sudyka, 10 August 2008 15:29)

Well, he will fly anyway. Either one or the other way - or both. Wish him a happy family life with his Holland wife and kids and private success outside of politics. He may open a "coffee shop", too, I don't care.

Found this fine piece of CNN propaganda (hope, no one objects my cross-posting):

http://tinyurl.com/5rjv2z

Please read carefully:

"Georgian soldiers search for victims after bombardments in Gori. A Russian news agency said the death toll was at least 2,000 in the capital of South Ossetia"

Wait, Gori is the birthplace of.... (whom??? Anyone's guess??? ) and it's NOT the capital of South Ossetia. The entire picture suggests, Russian army killed over 2,000 in Gori and the Georgian soldiers are searching for the victims. In the reality, the capital of South Ossetia is Tskhinvali. Here is the "truth", presented to American public.

Gori is the birthplace of იოსებ ბესრიონის სტალინი.

http://tinyurl.com/58l6r3
http://tinyurl.com/6js3qk
http://tinyurl.com/592q8k

That's the railway station of Gori:

http://tinyurl.com/6pstex

Again, just because I "enjoy" that picture of that "gentleman" soooo much:

http://tinyurl.com/6b9eux

Isn't it a lovely city? :(

An other nice portrait from Wiki... http://tinyurl.com/2meeux

It looks, it's lately OK in America to be not just a communist,

http://tinyurl.com/5c3c73
http://tinyurl.com/6dk2ef

but even love stalin - provided it's accompanied with anti-Russian or anti-Serbian propaganda.

There are reports of probably American mercenaries among the dead Georgian troops in Ossetia. There are claims that many are "blacks" found dead near a school.

Should be pointed out that the Ossetian refugees claim of tanks firing into homes and preventing them from leaving their rubbled houses for water . Pictures show a city annihilated.

I do not believe Russia should stop until it degrades Georgia's potential of doing this again.

The Georgian defense minister is still bragging about how the Israeli and American weapons and training helped them perform. He is also bragging that Georgian forces are still actually in there. So Russia should not stop.

The Russians are aiming at legitimate military targets and the number of Georgian civilians is very low. The ratio of civilian to military is much lower than U.S./NATO operations, for instance and infinitely lower than the Georgians who killed around 2,000 (there are people still buried in the rubble to be found) while none of their civilians had been killed by Ossetians before this savage genocidal attack.

There needs to be war crimes trials for the Georgians involved in this as it was a pure unprovoked attack against civilians.

Joe

I know that there has been a great deal of provocation from the Russian/South Ossetian side, I do not deny this, but I do criticize Georgia's approach. Instead of counter-insurgency measures by special forces, for example, they chose to level the city with artillery and bombers. That's what I am against.

Regarding my anti-Americanism, it only goes as far as America's foreign policy, that's all. It is a great country (I even have family in Chicago), but their foreign policy in the last 15 years is what I have come to dislike.

Finally, regarding Russia, there is much I am against when it comes to Russia, but stopping Georgian bombardment of civilians is not one of them, no side is right/wrong all of the time, I try to be impartial.

An American,Joe Mestas, living in South Ossetia witnessed "running over by tanks of children and women" by the Georgian military and other atrocities along with the complete destruction.

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28788

August 10, 2008, 22:24

American says U.S. and Georgia to answer for violence in South Ossetia

Joe Mestas, American citizen living in South Ossetia, who witnessed everything that happening in the region, talked to RT and blamed U.S. and Georgian leaders for the outbreak of violence.

“I thought that since U.S. is supporting Georgia there would be some control over the situation in South Ossetia and that there would be a peaceful solution to the conflict. But what is happening there now it’s not just war, but war crimes. George Bush and [Georgian president] Mikhail Saakashvili should answere to the crimes that are being committed – the killing of innocent people, running over by tanks of children and women, throwing grenades into cellars where people are hiding,” Joe Mestas said.

“The war is when military fight against military. But the Georgina army is killing innocent civilians. This is genocide,” he added.

alright albanians, it took georgia three days to surrender and it took you three days to come up with hope that russia's formidable humanitarian intervention means it will recognize kosovo, instead of that it means the flimsy kosovo special unique case argument of your owners has been debunked. well, what it actually means is that russia proved being right all along about kosovo opening up doors for napalm like heating of frozen conflicts besides being a huge security risk for europe. lets see the wave of recognitions after south ossetia shall we.
btw tadic, serbia's version of saakashvili is more likely to recognize you than russia. russia remains the boa constrictor around the neck of the stillborn. in fact russia's the one that turned the rosy cheeked abomination into a stillborn. now the best thing, would be for russia to annex south ossetia. then our albanians might want to get themselves annexed to albania. then we sit back and watch them have that argument with their masters nato, eu, u.s.
didn’t russians use the phrase pandora's box? they told everyone willing to listen. the bear is an extremely dangerous animal especially when provoked and its having trouble stopping itself right now. lesson to the wise, don’t try it again. i somehow don’t think georgia will.
for mr. bush who complained somewhere about the size of russian bombers used, that’s his argument today, he let go of territorial integrity speak :) george, if you think russian planes are big, try b1, b2, b52 for size. they were used to brutally assaulted my country with disproportionate force just because it was guarding its territorial integrity against separatists, once upon a time when i was a kid. used to assault me, and every living being in serbia.
and with that, although that is not what i want to express on public forums. but my heart, all of it, goes out to all who suffer in the war tonight.

"what is Putin's aim?
It is very clear and simple.
Stop Georgia becoming a NATO member by ALL MEANS."
(Joe, 10 August 2008 20:34)

This is so far the first and only statement where I agree.

Joe,

Your post was confusing to say the least. Neither Peter nor myself support Putin's domestic politics and we regularly disagree with some posters from Russia and more radical Serbs.

American politics lately did not add a bit to the world's stability, just to contrary. Their acts delayed the democracy and prolonged the political life of dictators like Saddam or Miloshevic. There is no "deep-seated anti-Americanism" saying that. To it's shame, America now is what USSR used to be.

My family has a long history of opposing Soviets, so we do oppose this new insanity.

Joe, if you know that much, please work with "Wiki", not try to fight some small guys here on B92. Here is the current article on Wiki about the war, please convince them and contribute:

http://tinyurl.com/62f78x

Just as I stated under #9 Russia's aim to prevent Georgia to become a NATO member by military means get confirmed more and more as time passes. Little Georgia stoped all military action but Russia continues bombing Georgian cities - sofar 15 - and continues its invasion into Central Georgia. Merkel, Sarkozy, the pope and Bush ask Russia to stop otherwise there will be consequences. I don't think Putin will stop. The next days will be dramatic!!

btw tadic, serbia's version of saakashvili is more likely to recognize you than russia. russia remains the boa constrictor around the neck of the stillborn. in fact russia's the one that turned the rosy cheeked abomination into a stillborn.
(smile, 11 August 2008 00:18)

This is wrong.

1) Tadic is not Saakashvili. Look at Saakashvili's human rights record on wiki. The only where they seem to be close is that neither of them will recognize break-away separatist entities. Tadic work is constantly sabotaged by clumsiness of "Western" politics, Saakashvili plays the lap-dog role, but very clumsy way. On the personal level, Tadic is not reported to have any issue.

2) Russia did not do much about Kosovo. In the fact, their moves regarding Kosovo could be significantly more aggressive. They have the mandate to deploy several thousand of their troops near Pristina airport. It did not happen. They blocked probably less, what they could and certainly they did not back SRS.

3) IMO, Jeremic was the boa constructor. He did a terrific job. SRS just exercised their voice. One reason why they lost was lack of support from Russian politicians. As part of their chess game, Russian politicians envision Serbia being in EU as a "fifth column". They don't care less about own people, even less about Kosovo. Nikolic wanted a marriage, but the bride run away.

Bravo, south Ossetia freed from Georgian Stalinist troops.

This is what happens when people refuse to negotiate and take unilateral actions. You reap what you sow.

Ataman,

Wiki seemes to be your Bible. However Wiki is no way neutral. It shows twice as much from the Russian side in a very favorable light. Reading it one gets almost the impression that he reads the "free" Russian media.
So if you read Wiki and both the Russian and Hungarian media than "voila" as say the French you get a biased opinion.
Checking the Hungarian media in the last few days I noticed their pro-Russian stand. Maybe they forgot already the "good old days" under the Russian boot. Maybe they should have the "brotherly" emrace again for a while to regain their sobriety.

Peter wrote:

Joe

I know that there has been a great deal of provocation from the Russian/South Ossetian side, I do not deny this, but I do criticize Georgia's approach. Instead of counter-insurgency measures by special forces, for example, they chose to level the city with artillery and bombers. That's what I am against.
......

I'd have to agree with Peter on this one. Georgia did not need to kill a fly with a sledgehammer.

I have no love for Russia's policies and now that the war has begun, I truly hope that the Russian 58th army is made to bleed heavily. Still this move by Georgia was simply reckless, stupid and potentially suicidal.

On 10 August 2008 15:29, Peter Sudyka wrote:

"So can someone please explain to me, what was the point of Georgia's attack on Ossetia? Did they think NATO would run to their aid? Did they think they stood a chance in hell against Russia? Did they think they would integrate their separatist regions by force?"

I must admit that I have only followed the events in and around Georgia with half an eye. Never thought it would escalate this fast, and in this manner. Now, to Peters question...

If it wasn't for the fact that Georgia recently had presidential elections, I would have thought it was yet another case of "rallying the people in support of the sitting government". Wars always has that effect. Whether it by Saddam against Iran, Iran against Iraq, Serbia against most of the Balkans, USA against most of the world, or the mess down in Africa.

Maybe it is simply a case of stupidity? Of Saakashvili surrounding himself with Yes-men, that only tells him what he likes to hear (much like Bush do). After a time, that kind of people tend to start believing that they are always right, that they are political geniuses. And it is only later that reality comes crashing down on them - HARD.

Ataman

"Indeed, and Russia is going to shoot itself in the foot, too - if they continue any act against the territory of "Georgia Proper". Hope, this won't happen."

As you can see, it is not getting any better there. You're right, now both sides have shot each other in the foot. Do you think they will save each others' other ones?

"He may open a "coffee shop", too, I don't care."

I suspect his wife may have had an impact on his rationale as a result of a particular substance which the Dutch consider a normal thing, hehe.