Russians take South Ossetia capital

Good luck to the Russians from further attacks from this NATO aggression from this NATO wannabee state. Once they are finished with Georgia, please come and help liberate us from Camp Bondsteel, which is illegally occupying sovereign Serbian soil.
Cheers!

That is a bad joke that Russian army are peace keepers. Ossetia, Abakazia are used by the Russians in their geo political games. The Russians had never any intentions of returning back to Georgia the areas or allowing the ethnic cleansed Georgians back. Russia is big part of the problem not even close to a workable solution nor want a peaceful solution. They even arm the rebel areas and do every thing they can to undermine Georgia hoping it will give up or collapse in some way.

In other reports it's quite amusing listening to Condoleeza Rice, (US cabinet officer) asking Russian forces to leave S Ossetia and for Russia to respect territorial integrity! Somehow I think the US should ask themselves about territorial integrity...Afghanistan, Iraq....and its own country! Perhaps the US will now launch a bombardment on Russian troops? No, of course not, the mighty US wouldn't pick on a bigger and better nation!!

“Permanent members Britain, the U.S. and France, are pinpointing what they say is Russia's aggression as the key factor in the slide towards war”,

-How convenient to blame Russia for the problems in Shakasvili’s Georgia. As far as I know, Russia did not encourage Ossetia to insist on any form of independence. Had Russia insisted and helped break away by all means, the situation would have been already different. Instead, after the first conflicts occurred in this disputable province Russians walked into Ossetia as peacekeepers and provided peace (without insisting on independence and respecting Georgia’s sovereignty) until the moment Shakasvili decided to attack peacekeepers.

And why did Shakasvili dare to attack million times more powerful Russia? Did they think that Russia will just seat and watch while its citizens and peacekeepers have been brutally attacked by heavy artillery backed by air strikes?

If Shakasvili got green light from the USA and the EU to provoke Russia, then they are in real trouble since no one will help them to come out from this mess. They will be just lonely players. I am sure USA and the EU will do just nothing to help them. Their help will consist of continuous appeal for finding peaceful solutions and while the final solution for the peace is found, Georgia will be already heavily wounded and will need a lot of strength to recover and rise from the ashes.

Also, lets not forget that Georgians killed 1 400 civilians in only one day, which wars in ex YU makes look like a picnic. Well, Stalin is Georgian after all. ‘

So, I can just say go Russia, go. At least you are enough powerful to defend its citizens and oppose Georgian brutality backed by the USA and EU.

How could the Russians let the Georgians get away with killing over 1,400 civilians in one day and almost completely destroying the capital of S. Ossetia in that same day?

The Georgians also destroyed a hospital which had wounded South Ossetians.

The South Ossetians had not killed any Georgian civilians in the days and weeks before Georgia slaughtered these 1,400.

Instead there were only sniper and mortar exchanges between the Georgian army which was building up on Ossetia's border. Georgia planned this. Georgia has also been building up on Abkhazia's border.

Abkhazia though is said to have just started bombing Georgians in the gorge area of their country.

South Ossetia was annexed to Georgia under Stalin. Stalin was an ethnic Georgia who stole South Ossetia for Georgia.

Georgia must be made to pay for all the civilian infrastructure damage it wrought on Ossetia since it aggressed before even one of their civilians was killed.

In addition Georgia killed 10 Russian peacekeepers in their barracks in the surprise night attack.

The Russians have a right to punish the Georgians for their murder of the Russians until the Georgians are too subdued to carry out such a bold attack ever again.

The Domino Effect has begun...

“I hope that the Serbs here agree with me when I mention the international law since the Serbs here were using the international law as an argument against Kosova's declaration of Independence. (Afrim Hoxha, 9 August 2008 09:46)”

Afrim, Russia is not going in there to create an independent state, but in response to massive civilian causalities in the Capital.

Don’t forget there were only 2,000 deaths in Kosovo before the NATO bombing (over a very long period), which was triggered by Racek, in which only 45 people died. Here we have an aggression resulting in the deaths of 1500 civilians in a single day in a single city, nearly matching the entire death figure that led up to the NATO bombing. Surely Russia has more right to keep the peace in such a far more dangerous situation. Can you imagine what would have happened in Serbia had tried something similar in Pristina before the NATO bombing?

Do not forget the Official Serbian position is in support of Peacekeepers in Kosovo and “More than autonomy, less than Independence”. So I see no contradiction in supporting a similar stance in Georgia. No one is calling for independence of those regions in Georgia, not even Russia. Serbia is not threatening nor demanding or even insinuating the desire to send tanks in Pristina to solve the current crisis.

In fact, its “Camp Kosovo” here that are the ones who are contradicting themselves. You strongly supported Independence and bombing as a result of just 2000 causalities in Kosovo (before the NATO bombing) yet fail to call for similar solutions to the problems in Georgia.

I guess 1500 innocent Russian civilians are somehow worth less than a similar number of innocent Albanian civilians. However, I’m not surprised, if your views were consistent, you would support the partition of Kosovo (as I do).

Russia and Serbia are facing similar situations, both saw areas of their country populated by their citizens (North of Kosovo, Ossetia) chopped off by Dictators of a different ethnicity (Stalin-Georgian, Tito-Croatian) and given to areas that traditionally have been hostile towards that population.

What did hitler say after the british bombed berlin? "Two can play at that game, soldier". The Russians are conducting "humanitarian bombing" in order to stop the "ethnic cleansing" of Ossetia by the "evil" Georgian military. Western hypocrisy used against it now. Again, this has nothing to do with the people in the area. Putin is rubbing bush's face in the dirt just like nato did to yeltsin in 1999. Negotiation is always the answer, but since the west refuses to negotiate, they reap what they sow.

i'm glad that russia is doing the right humanitarian thing by taking its humanitarian intervention outside of the disputed province and bombing towns in georgia, staunch western ally, as well. tbilisi should be next, and i hope tbilisians will understand that its for humanitarian reasons purely, in fact, for their own good. their regime is attacking these innocent separatists in a brutal manner and now all of georgia should be made to suffer, but humanely of course.
russians are doing well to adopt these western democratic values, this heritage almost, in dealing with ethnic and territorial disputes abroad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_bombing_of_the_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia
good luck, south ossetia, on your own way. thank you, russia and welcome back to where you belong, to being a big world power with huge humanitarian capabilities. i haven’t noticed anyone really so much as looking at Russia cross eyed for this fine humanitarian effort.

While indeed South Ossetia is a part of Georgia's integrity as per international law and Russia should not be meddling in its affairs, the fact that Georgia attacked the Ossetians with heavy weaponry, destroying 70% of the city, killing 1 600 people and creating 30 000 refugees is simply inexcusable. Here I actually agree with Russia's intervention, as indeed this situation smells a little of the 1999 war in Kosovo, except that one should replace Russia with NATO, Georgia with Serbia and Kosovo with South Ossetia.

I am curious to know what will happen next. There has been
two wars and countless insurgencies in this region, so one has to ask: can these people really live with one another under one state? I am sorry, in the past I can agree that South Ossetia was the instigator of the previous conflicts due to their aggressive separatism, but what Georgia has done now is shot itself in the foot. It has attacked and killed innocent people as well as peace keepers (which include Georgian soldiers), which has shown it has no interest whatsoever in the people of South Ossetia, just their land (under the premise of international law and hope that NATO will come and support them in their quest).

I am glad NATO is staying out of this. Russia should drive the Georgians out and bring the Georgians and Ossetians to the negotiating table under international supervision in order to discuss future status, just like in Kosovo.

In the past few days, Georgia has solidified the opinion that Shakashvili is a a tyrant like Lukashenko of Belarus, only siding with the Western Empire and not the Eastern. I pray that such a country does not enter NATO and that the people can vote for a president without this guy rigging the votes like Lukashenko has done before.

Very sad world this has become. Georgia should belong to the people and not this imperialist and his ideas (especially considering that most Georgians do not want him in power in the first place).

Hungarian TV of course also reported the fighting, but as they said, "it's unclear how it broke out" and they stay away to comment it "pro" or "contra".

The ethnic map of Kavkaz can be seen here:

http://tinyurl.com/6zssd9

If you look at it, the situation around Kosovo seem to be a piece of cake. Just consider, that Eduard Shevarnadze who was the head of Georgia before Saakashvili for extended period of his life was also the FM of USSR.

For Serbs, this is a tragedy because essentially two of their allies fight. If anyone does not know: Russian and Georgian culture is very much mingled together and this is a huge tragedy. These ought to be one whole. Russians will never forget the Georgian general Bagrationi, the hero of Borodino battle against Napoleon and of course, not the general Miloradovic, an other hero of the same battle.

Many Russians and some Georgians do blame Saakashvili, but IMO, there is also somewhat else. Saakashvili is a very talented man, but for me he seem to be young, inexperienced and not really fit for politcs. He has a lot of influence from his wife, who is a native of Netherlands and is a dual NL-Georgian citizen. She, too seem to have good intents, but the execution is a different story. Their opponent is a ruthless political chess-player who as an ex-KGB official is the best at conspiracy and politics. He is popular because after years filled with vodka he brought stability and relative prosperity, but as part of the KGB baggage he does not have empathy towards the quality of life of even own citizens. Neither his own citizens, nor traditional allies (Serbia and ex-ally Georgia) should expect from Putin more, than what he "grants" to own citizens.

Albanians should not dance in joy, because their "ally" is even worse and has a long history of abandoning - see South Vietnam, Czechoslovakia in 1968, Hungary in 1956, Taiwan.

Georgia (like Ukraine) is filled with influental American "expats", who claim to be experts of everything and know everything. In the reality, many of these "expats" have difficulty of their own life (mostly family-related) and try to find their private happiness in Ukraine or Georgia. (Guess, what does it mean). It is a mistake to equal these losers to official American politics. They are adventurers and do most things on their own. They rarely find the happiness they seek (certain things money just can't buy), but screwing (up) things in local politics is easier than just screwing around.

Getting rid of these self-proclaimed "experts" by putting them on the first airplane out of Georgia would be a good first step.

I am sure, these "experts" can be found in Pristina in great numbers. First what Albo's should do is to ask these "expert" cautiously about their family and private life. ;)

This could answer some of the questions, esp, what "bmrusila" asked. If indeed, these self-proclaimed "experts" do have much influence in Georgian politics, than such action is understandable. If Saakashvili cannot see the trees because of the forest, he is not fit to be a politician.

As for how much should we trust the media like CNN regarding this war - please look again at mixing Budapest with Belgrade if it's suits their needs:

http://tinyurl.com/6o46qo

Russia has to accept the international law and leave Georgia.
It is against the international law to send troops to Georgia since Georgia is an internationally recognized country...
I hope that the Serbs here agree with me when I mention the international law since the Serbs here were using the international law as an argument against Kosova's declaration of Independence.
lets see now if Serbs are people that keep the word and that do not change each time just because of their interest. Lets see if they still agree that the international law shouldnt be broken and that Georgia should leave the internationally recognized independent country of georgia.
Thanks

Srebrenica was military soldiers killed at the end of a war where they'd decapitated Serbs and destroyed scores of villages all around. Plus it was their commander Naser Oric who stabbed and bayoneted to death the first victim of the area - a Serb judge in Srebrenica.

Additionally they exaggerate the deaths and have even thrown in military deaths from Zepa which is a city south of Srebrenica and was another military base of Muslim soldiers in east Bosnia. They combine the Zepa dead and missing with Srebrenica to inflate their totals.

Ossetians had killed no Georgian civilians before this attack.

Further the the capital has no water and their are people buried under rubble and trapped in their homes.

Someone needs to come in an rescue the people buried under rubble from Georgian bombing. Someone also needs to get the people food and water as they have no electricity or other utilities working.

Here's one story of what the Georgians did to the Ossetians:

http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28708

War victim trapped in basement with son’s body

A woman is trapped in the basement of her bombed-out house in Tskhinvali after Georgia launched a ferocious missile attack early on Friday. RT contacted Paisia Sytnik by phone. She told us the body of her dead 20-year-old son was beside her.

”The planes are bombing us. I am sitting here is the basement. Fire is raging above us. Let somebody come and help us. Where are the peacekeepers? I am sitting here with other people. My son has been killed. Why nobody comes to save us? We’ve got people sitting here,” Paisia Sytnik said.

Tskhinvali suffered serious damage during Georgia’s missile offensive on Thursday and Friday. South Ossetian sources say more then 2,000 people were killed in the city, a figure Georgia denies.

The humanitarian situation in the city is grim with residents left without water or power supplies…

To ben:

Hey ben? Stop saying "science fiction" stories in here! The majority of the ossetian population supports Russia, and see your countrymen as enemies!

YOUR goverment started the attack and is responsible for almost destroyning the ossetian capital in the first days of the conflict. YOUR goverment is responsible for killing more than 1400 civilians in the ossetian capital in the next days!

And you accuse Russia of being aggressive??? Because they just responded to your 100% aggresion in the first days! What did you expect, that they would no nothing, to protect their citizens?? They would just let you destroy the ossetian capital and kill innocent ossetians???This is what your coward goverment hoped for???

When YOU start a war, when YOU destroy a capital, when YOU kill more than a 1000 innocent civilians, YOU must accept the concequences!

I am not Serb or Russian, I am just Greek. From a country that is one of the oldest EU and NATO members, the organizations that your goverment asks help from, now.

And I tell you that I as the majority of my countrymen, support Russia fully in that matter, simply because they have the right with their side!!

“Dmitry Medvedev said his country had begun an operation "to force the Georgian side to peace".

I just can’t believe how arrogant and cynical Russian authorities can be.

You are sending the third wave (the first in beginning of 90s, the second this Friday and the third today) of your army there to DEFEAT and HUMILIATE Georgia.

No SERIOUS country would ever do such a thing to her neighbor for an enclave of 20,000 people who NO ONE ENDAGERS, neither Liechtenstein with 40,000 population. But this is perfectly normal for 150 million Russia.

What wants Russia in Georgia? Russian in Ossetia and Abhkasia are not even 0.001% of the Russian nation. It wants land? Why they don’t have enough- watch the map- they have almost double more land than China with 1.3 billion populations.

The shame and hypocrisy in the totalitarian cultures are unknown notions.

Following the latest developments McCain appeard immediately decicive, hard and presidential while Obama - just like expected -ridiculously weak, type of Jeamy Carter.
(Joe, 9 August 2008 16:33)

For God's sake, Joe - I understand if you feel being right to contribute to Serbian-Albanian conflict because you are coming from a country which is the neighbor of Serbia.

But can you please enlighten us, what your views/knowledge about Russia and Kavkaz are based on? You lived in Russia? You know people from Kavkaz? You are sure, Russia is evil, Sakartvelo is good? What is Sakartvelo, after all? Where is Kura, what is Ahulgo, who was Shota Rustaveli, who was Bagrationi, where Sveti Tskhoveli, where is Alaverdi, who is St. Nino, what is Tiflis, how to make a Khinkali or Harcho.... my god, this all is ELEMENTARY knowledge, I know that, I wasn't in Sakartvelo, I don't claim for a single second anything, in the fact I am really ignorant about Kavkaz...but I (kind of) know Russia, more-less. And I openly say, I do not know anything, it's really much more complicated than it seems.

Please, really, as it is said in Hungarian: "aki nem tud arabusul ne beszéljen arabusul" (who does not know Arabic, should not talk Arabic)

BTW: I am curious, what "your" McCan will do. Talk tough and send more "experts" to Sakartvelo who are lonely and urgently need a Kartvellian/Russian/Oset girl to marry? Thanks, they are abundant. Any other idea? :-(

I agree that Russia had a mandate to defend the S.O. population, and that georgian forces' attack on civilians in Tshkinvali is absolutely unheard of. however, with their actions today, like bobmbing residential areas in Georgian cities waaay out of the conflict zone, Russia has reduced themselves to the same, pitiful, level as the georgians ( and the US, for that matter). It's a disgrace, and a disgusting act of war crime.

Lunger,

source of your ridiculous claim?
If Serbs cleansed you like you keep on screaming they have, there wouldn't be as many of you in Kosovo as there are.
If Serbs were intolerant and violent, there wouldn't be 2 million of you in Kosovo.
There aren't as many of you in the Balkans as you like to think.

The point is Georgia got over confident about their 'friends' and 'allies', just like Albanians bordering on doing. Do not for a second think that you are secial, unique.

The frightening parallels of one power bombing and invading another country to "bring it to the negoitating table" aside, we're talking about massive losses in life and property. If Russia wants to protect a particular enclave for its own political interests (like the US in Kosovo), that's one thing. But to actually target and bomb other parts of the country (again as in 1999), that's a major escalation of war. I'm not exactly sure what Moscow intends to do here. The dominoes may be falling, the Pandora's Box may be opening, but no one should be happy to see it.

thank you russia for liberating s-ossetia.

and also thank you for having mercy with the orthodox nation in georgia.

they - of course - aren´t to blame for living under a us-backed dictator and war criminal.

just like the majority in serbia on 11th may didn´t vote for ds and their buddy palma, with whom they share values, but here we are, living under tadic.

Russian Democrazy at Work!!!

Hello everybody! My name is Elvina,
I'm from St.-Petersburg. I'm student of political sciens and... Sometimes I work teenager magazins.
Forgive for lovely intervention,
but it would be desirable to tell pair words (likely owing to
my rage to Georgia). Anybody from Russia now does not speak
against USA. You and me - we are people. And I think
that all can be better, If we will be respect Each other.
But, can you say me about this: you have not journalists
in Sout Osetia and you didn't see trouble that greogian
soldier force peace inhabitants and kill us and them...
You have some journalists in Greogia, when Saakashvili.
Georgians have killed about our 100 soldier. Our soldiers have
killed nearby 10 Georgian are valid calculations... And we help everybody, when Georgia kill our hospital-car...
The World of news says lies to you much... Even if and so,
I have many friends from Abkhazia and all of them hate
Georgia and call for association with Russia.
Sorry, if I have some mistakes)

"Also, lets not forget that Georgians killed 1 400 civilians in only one day, which wars in ex YU makes look like a picnic."
Srebrenica? It will always be there.

Georgia only wanted to provoke the Russians in anticipation of NATO intervention. My god, how these politicians can misread the obvious is stunning.
Georgia was hoping to play the "K-Albaninan card". It is incredible and unbelievable that the US/EU managed to play that card to begin with.
I'm sure bush is quite pleased with what Georgia has accomplished - another nail in the kosova UDI coffin.
bush is angry tonight.
Now the US/EU have to live with their studpidity and consequences of their stupidity.
Kosovo is Serbia.

Hajduk

"The brave Georgians deserve the full admiration of the world.
(Joe, 9 August 2008 20:47)"

For what Joe, leveling a city and killing almost 2 000 civilians with heavy artillery and aerial bombardment? I can say the same thing about Serbia defending itself from NATO for such a long time and taking down a stealth fighter and a few other US planes, how does that make you feel? Come on, Georgia is clearly the aggressor here with a lot of blood on their hands, yet you show zero sympathy for the dead Ossetians, but get all melodramatic when you hear of Albanian deaths? Are you so blindly against Russia and blindly for America that human suffering can be measured in terms of allegiance? I know you won't reply to me because you know that I am right.

Here's a thought, since you blame Russia historically for so many things, why not blame Georgia, who are responsible for most of the suffering of post-war Hungary, especially since the guy who ordered everything, was a Georgian?

"Don't be so quick in believing numbers of dead people etc. The number estimates are usually exact after wars end. How did they count 1400? While shooting at the same time?All within 2 days?
(shqarthi, 9 August 2008 20:18)"

Right, so of course, the 10 000 dead Albanians in Kosovo is not an exaggerated figure but the 2 000 in Ossetia is? Of course it is possible to kill so many people in two days, if you shell the city with artillery and bombs.

The Georgians have lost my support and respect for this act. They can pretty much forget about NATO after this, as the European countries will not support their bid anymore.

But to actually target and bomb other parts of the country (again as in 1999), that's a major escalation of war. I'm not exactly sure what Moscow intends to do here.

(Mike, 9 August 2008 18:20)

Mike, it maybe escaped your attention, but what city was allegedly bombed, did you notice? I bet, the name was given, without explanation. But it has a very special meaning.

Well, well, the Russians thought that they will have an easy promenade in Georgia showing up their newest armor thanks to the oil money.
But little Georgia gives so far the impression of a brave David. Under the latest flash "Russian troops raid Georgian town, scores dead" (and yes not from CNN!!!)I just read that so far 10 Russian planes were shot down and Georgian forces knocked out about 40 Russian tanks around Tikhinvali. Even if these numbers were exaggerated it would be fantastic exploit from a small David defending his country. Small Finland of 1940 comes to my mind giving such a great lesson to the invading big bear.
Big ravaging bear admitted 2 planes lost already earlier. Maybe it had no choice since 2 pilots were shown on Georgian TV.
I have the impression that the Russian badly miscalculated. Gone are the days when they got opposed only with Molotov cocktails like in Budapest in 1956.
The brave Georgians deserve the full admiration of the world.

"The city of Tskhinvali no longer exists," he said. "It is gone. The Georgian military has destroyed it."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551595.stm

Interesting to note, the Joe's "brave David" successfully killed 1500 civilians in a single day. Joe, please re-fresh your Hungarian and read the Hungarian news.

Like this: http://www.nol.hu/cikk/502908/

There you can read:

"A Dél-Oszétiában állomásozó orosz békefenntartó erõk összesen 15 katonája halt Chinvaliban meg azóta, hogy a grúz erõk csütörtök éjszaka nagyszabású hadmûveletet indítottak a szakadár tartomány fõvárosának bevételére"

Again, please re-read, who initiated the war:

"grúz erõk csütörtök éjszaka nagyszabású hadmûveletet indítottak"

Or are Hungarians Russian lapdogs lately?

An interesting thing to read is this:

"John Dorrian, az amerikai erõk európai parancsokságának szóvivõje a francia hírügynökségnek nyilatkozva hangoztatta: a Grúziában tartózkodó amerikai katonák semmilyen formában sem keveredtek bele a konfliktusba. Egy kétoldalú katonai együttmûködési program keretében a kaukázusi országban mintegy száz amerikai kiképzõtiszt tevékenykedik."

So we have - according John Dorrian (the speaker of command center of American forces in Europe) ca. 100 American military trainers in Georgia and gladly, they did stay away from the conflict. What they are doing in Georgia - sightsee the basilica of Alaverdi? Converting to Orthodox faith? ;)

An other "gem" you offered in an other post was to ask Turkish army to move-in into Sakartvelo. You know what would happen? Karvellians will cry bloody murder and it will be Saakashvili first, who will ask for Russian tanks to roll in Tbilisi, that would be a 180-degree turn. It looks, like you do not know, while the Kartvellian-Russian relationship had it's lows and highs (now it's rather low), the Kartvellian-Turkish relationship was rarely friendly. Recently it is better, but please read the history, why Sakartvelo asked Russia for protection.

Other "gems" I miss are the comments of Robert-O. Glad to know, he is already in Sarajevo, so probably some more professional insider infos about Georgia, Russia and Serbia will come soon. :(

“dont forget that Russia has in fact is the only country that has recognized the South Ossetia as independent country. (Albana, 9 August 2008 21:51)”

I’d be curious to see your source on that, as I’m 99% sure that Russia has not recognized South Ossetia., at least as recently as April.

http://eng.kavkaz-uzel.ru/newstext/engnews/id/1213158.html

“I also believe that one should not draw parallels with South ossetia and Kosovo. The 1500 number of deaths is the only version reported by Russia. They can say whatever they want and the problem is that there is no reliable data at this point given that the area is completely secluded and not many independent observers are there.”

If Russia is exaggerating the deaths, wouldn’t that be exactly like Kosovo? The US claimed 100,000 dead in Kosovo before the NATO bombing, we now know it was only 2,000 at that time.

“Why Serbia does not support Georgia? how come? (i DUNNO, 10 August 2008 03:15)”

Because the current Democratic government of Serbia supports PEACEFUL solutions to such types of conflicts based on dialogue and negotiation not killing civilians en mass. We’ve learned a lot over the last two decades.

Mathhew, dont forget that Russia has in fact is the only country that has recognized the South Osettia as independent country.
(Albana)

Before posting your comment please make sure to inform yourself a bit on the topic.

Just to tell you that South Ossetia has not been recognised by any UN member country, which means that even Russians did not recognise S.Ossetia as independent country.

Provoke Russia? Perhaps they were trying to 'prove' their worth for Nato membership by trying to impress Brussels. Too bad this will backfire and they are in grave danger in loosing 20 to 30 % of their territory for good. Russia will only strengthen its resolve now to control (de-facto annex?) both South Ossentia AND Abkhasia. Moreover, the fragile Caspian pipelin to the West is now in danger of stoppage, perhaps damage. Whoever is behind this mess has miscalculated horribly and the results will be enduring. The West's oil supply just got worse. Large parts of Georgia are falling into Russia's hands. Next, Serbia will ask for Russian missles. Stay tuned sports fans. This is geting interesting.

So the naked Russian agression of bombing Georgian territory continues. This will be a rude awaikening for all those European peaceniks, who wanted to make believe that imperialist Russia changed radically.
Also in the US presidential campaign it comes at the right moment: it justifies McCain's long stated realistic views of a dangereous and revangeful Russia. Following the latest developments McCain appeard immediately decicive, hard and presidential while Obama - just like expected -ridiculously weak, type of Jeamy Carter.
Further developments in Georgia will be of great importance not only for small, agressed Georgia but also for the future of Europe and the political direction in the US.

South Ossetia and Kosovo need to sit still. Neither country shall get indepence. I think it is a shame that Russia is picking a war with Georgia and Georgia should not be fighting a war with South Ossetia. This is only the start! Way to go USA. By recognizing Kosovo you have started your master plan to dissolve countries. That is why USA will only get stronger while other countries are fighting for little pieces of land. Image how powerful the former Jugoslavia would have been if they knew how to live together!

Mathhew, dont forget that Russia has in fact is the only country that has recognized the South Osettia as independent country. The in fact russia has so much influence on osettians who also hold russian passports. Moreover, Russia has been constantly provoking Georgia and its integrity. Remember the spying jets? Its not like Georgia just woke and decided to this overnight. Anyhow I dont want to take sides. I also believe that Saakashvili undermined the russians and didnt expect their tanks rolling in so fast.
I also believe that one should not draw parallels with South ossetia and Kosovo. The 1500 number of deaths is the only version reported by Russia. They can say whatever they want and the problem is that there is no reliable data at this point given that the area is completely secluded and not many independent observers are there. Kosovo had years of suffarage through various means ending up with cleansing.I dont think saakashvili wanted to chopp off the ossetians. They simply wanted to get the area back together with the population and resolve this issue. The serbian leaders (back in 90s) wanted Kosovo BUT without the 2 million people.

Saakashvili- he is necessary to be hung up heels over head, as Mussolini. He arranged the genocide of ossetic people and the Georgian people betrayed. It is talked that orange revolyuciya- revolution of roses, although probably it stank a dung. For him in general nobody voted almost, all elections had been conducted on the money of CIA.

Ataman,

I was kind of shocked in view of your absurd statements. So according to you if someone is not from Russia or the Caucasus (as Russian you used Kavkaz, the Russian word) he should not express his opinion at all. Leave it to the dear Russkies until they create a cemetery type peace just like they did in Tchechnia in the nineties. Are you so naive as to believe that just because Western politicians and democraties know very little about the history and customs of the Georgians as opposed - as an example - to that of France they will simply give the Russkies card blanche to do whatever they wish?
Anyway to make it short you will see that a lot of democratic Western countries will keep a very close eye on Georgia and ensure that it does not become a second Hungary 1956.

Comrade Joe

It is good to see you so strongly defending the communist redrawn borders of eastern and central Europe. Keep up the good work.

Have you begun your Mandarin lessons yet?

Forget about the past think of the future.

I will bid two blankets and three beans to buy back Alaska when your economically and morally defunct US regime begins selling the family jewels.

""How could the Russians let the Georgians get away with killing over 1,400 civilians in one day and almost completely destroying the capital of S. Ossetia in that same day?"" - ida

Ask yourself then, how could the US/NATO allow Serbia to ethnically cleanse Kosovo of around 800,000 civilians?
It mgiht be impossible for some Serbs to see the parallels of the situation.
Any Serb that lets his man-love for Russia and are overjoyed to see Russia violate Georgian territory need to re-evaluate their Kosovo position, otherwise you are a hypocrite of the worst order.
I have always been a western opponent of Kosovo independence and based on those same exact principles I am opposed to Russian interference and South Ossetian and Abkhazian independence.

Ben and Albanian et al,

nowhere in the world, in history EVER have the ethnically cleansed populations, or refugees returned to the area compltely.

If your houses were burned, where exactly did you return to?
For refugees, look at the Palestine and Israel incidents, look at Iraqi refugees and Afghanistan refugees - and those were the people that were 'liberated'.

Your claims demeen the real victims of war and the real refugees who cannot return to their place of residence, not only because of fear, but because of the fact that they have nowhere to return to.

South Ossetians are protected by Russians yet they flee, and many will never return due to the utter distruction of their land.

So stop with the victim complex. Noone believes it anymore, not even your Western puppet masters.
You are a failed experiement, and Kosovo will always remain in Serbia.
America will desert you as will EU.
If you were that valuable to the EU, Albania would already have a candidate status, or even be a member.
Instead, you're poorest country in region and Europe. If you couldn't make anything of Albania, you will not make anything of Kosovo.

But that should not be a concern, since as long as there is Serbia, you will not have Kosovo i Metohia and you will not participate in any international organization. End.

Don't be so quick in believing numbers of dead people etc. The number estimates are usually exact after wars end. How did they count 1400? While shooting at the same time?All within 2 days?

Joe,

You may have your opinions. I also may have an opinion. But certain opinions like suggesting that Turkey would march in Georgia in order to help against Russia are indeed absurd. Someone who voices such opinions has not the slightest idea about the history of the region and mentality of the people.

The statement, that the word "Kavkaz" is Russian is equally absurd. That word ("Kavkaz") is used in several languages all over the region, so it's proper. For instance, AFAIK, Chechens use it. Turks use it. Circassians use it. Please make a slightest research before you make a statement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfUKy-4_vdo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-QSKZyq5SM

Don't say these are Russians and that the movie was made by Russian.

For you, these are Russians, too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkPK5fGiDn0

You can read the comment from youtube user "veaymete" who is (click on his name) certainly a Russian and the language is (for you) also in Russian:

"birbirinden güzel yavrularimiza kucak dolusu sevgiler..Kafkas,Kırım ve Laz havalarını bir potada eritip bütünleyen evlatlarımızıda büyüklerini de Tanrı Korusun.."

OK, we probably can move on with that "Russian" word Kavkaz/Kavkas.

----------------------------------------------------

Otherwise, indeed, this seem to be a puzzle: why a rather sympathetically looking, young politician who seem to be pro-democracy and firmly against the old regime, who is from a very respectable family acting like Saakashvili.

The common knowledge I just learned today from firmly "pro-Western" Russians who are normally firmly against the group around Putin is very interesting.

According these sources, Saakashvili has huge influences of the American "expats" who are NOT equal American foreign policy. That means, my opinion I did voice earlier was backed, we did not discuss it earlier. These guys are pure adveturers (but don't feel jealous about them - the main reason they are in Georgia/Sakarvelo, Ukraine and other close-by places is deeply personal and very sad, they can be described in USA as "losers")

The entire action was orchestered by this circle. It has probably zero backing of any official "Western" (including bushite!) politics, alone for the reason that no one wants a direct armed conflict with Russia. The timing was for Olympics. The proof, no one was expecting: every head of every country what counts was in Beijing.

The goal of the action: EXTERMINATE the South Ossetians as ethnic element. This explains the very high number of civilian and very low number of military casualties: 14 Russian peacekeepers versus now over 2000 civilians and 30000 refugees.

These are the news I learned today from "my" sources who are - again - very critical to Putin, "pan-slavism" and imperial ambitions. I cannot back with any proof what these people told me yet, but it (including Saakashvili being a "junker") sound plausible.

----------------------------------------------------

I fully agree with Peter Sudyka: with this action Georgia's NATO membership hopes are probably gone. It was a "guerrila action", completely uncoordinated within NATO and "politically incorrect". Saakashvili should listen less to girl-hungry American "expats" - or if what my contacts are correct - to his hallucinations during the time he "flies".

Imagine if south-ossetia was kosovo and imagine if Russia was USA and imagine if Georgia was Serbia... Do I have to say more ???.

telling you the truth, Serbia over Kosovo had it. Why Serbia does not support Georgia? how come?

Elvina,

We don’t need Western so called unbiased journalists (because they are very biased) to learn what is going on in Georgia and Ossetia.

We are all very well informed that Georgia begun to kill civilians and peacekeepers in S.Ossetia and that Russia responds the way it is supposed to, as a real country.

Those who ignore to see the truth are just Russophobes (and they are mostly Albanians who occupy this web site in order to express their views on the matter).

Rest assured that Serbia is with Russia by all its heart, but unfortunately no other support we can offer but moral one.

We hope and wish that cease fire takes place very soon and Russia taking complete control over S.Ossetia.

Best regards from Serbia and Kosovo

ben

Just one thing, the people in South Ossetia are not Russians, but Ossetians, an Iranic ethnic group and not Slavic. This area was once independent too, but it was butted onto Georgia by Stalin in the 30's because he was half Georgian and Ossetian.

"Right, so of course, the 10 000 dead Albanians in Kosovo is not an exaggerated figure but the 2 000 in Ossetia is? Of course it is possible to kill so many people in two days, if you shell the city with artillery and bombs."
(Peter Sudyka, 10 August 2008 10:53)

Peter Sudyka, I was talking about the impossibility of counting and coming up with an exact estimate of casualties in conditions of war, which by the way had just started. Not of the impossibility of killing.
Also I was talking about what is happening there now, what does the number of the Albanians have to do with what is happening between Georgia and Russia?

I have a terrible sense of deja vu. An arrogant great power violates the territorial integrity of a small state claiming that it wants to prevent a campaign of ethnic cleansing by that state. It also undertakes a bombing campaign that focuses not just on the small state's military forces in the breakaway province but also on civilian targets in the rest of the country. I therefore find it outrageous that some posters here who are the most vehement on the naked violation of Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo are also the ones defending Russia's actions in Georgia. Serbia's sympathies must stand with Georgia's, because we find ourselves in the same boat, even if geopolitically as a state our government is in no position to criticize Russia because as a small country we rely on Russia to help sustain our rightful sovereign claims to Kosovo.

"Russia has to accept the international law and leave Georgia.
It is against the international law to send troops to Georgia since Georgia is an internationally recognized country..."

wow.

let aside that there is certainly a reason for it...that this territory is called north and south OSSETIA...

just like Kosovo is a serbian name for serbian territory, while Albanians up to the present day have no explanation or just even an idea of an albanian name, and please don´t come up with "dardania", since you Albanians have no historical connection to ancient dardania at all...

no this Albanian dares to argue with international law, unbelievable! in southern Serbia they violate it, but in South Ossetia they respect it.

while S. Milosevic was called a war-criminal for the attempt to bring back serbian territory under serbian control, Mr. Sakashvili is seen as a "democratic" western-oriented leader.

...I can remember the demonstrations against him in Tbilisi in November 2007, what has been a clear proof of how democratic he really is...

he even used tear gas and rubber bullets against his own people.

so the double-standards can´t be dispalayed any clearer.

and after all that sickening hypocrisy now an Albanian dares to take the word "international law" in his mouth...

unbelievable, indeed.


as far as I see it, the Aggressor was Sakashvili here, since he violated a peace treaty from 1992 which stipulated a peace-keeping force made of Ossetian, Georgian and Russian peace-keepers.

who forced this man to start a war? does anybody here believe that Sakashvili went to war without asking Washington for permission?
and what does it say about the " one and only global superpower " when they, together with the "most powerful military alliance of the world" can only sit there and watch the Russians pacifying the war-zone?

I can remember how some smart Albanians were philosophizing about Russia being a weak military-power... or how another Albanian wrote about the "georgian David who shot down 10 russian fighter-planes " ...while today, four days after the georgian aggression, russian military controls most of south Ossetia and the Georgians are withdrawing from all fronts and their irresponsible president is publicly whining for help from the US of A ...of course without even getting a direct answer.

South Ossetia and Kosovo need to sit still. Neither country shall get indepence. I think it is a shame that Russia is picking a war with Georgia and Georgia should not be fighting a war with South Ossetia. This is only the start! Way to go USA. By recognizing Kosovo you have started your master plan to dissolve countries. That is why USA will only get stronger while other countries are fighting for little pieces of land. Image how powerful the former Jugoslavia would have been if they knew how to live together!

Hey Russia come on, isn’t South Ossetia a part of a sovereign state? Aren’t Georgians just trying to restore their right to rule over their entire geographical terrain? Aren’t Georgians with their efforts to preserve sovereignty same time protecting ‘International Law” etc? . did you forget, what you’re proclaiming everywhere more than ten years now with Kosova case? You deny the rest of the world the right for self-governance (Kosova case, 3 Million Albanians) or better saying the rest of the world who don’t agree with your regressive view of the life, but you support satellites who obey communistic rule of functioning that you prefer, no matter if they are merely some 70.000 people
But my dear Russian fellows, you should be aware of your chronically weakness; if you remember you couldn’t beat Afghanistan rebels even as USSR, together with these Georgian guys and many other allies.
Russians must keep in mind that they aren’t Americans.

The brave Georgians deserve the full admiration of the world.
(Joe, 9 August 2008 20:47)

I agree with you Joe 100%. Respect and admiration to Georgians.

Can't believe how the "defender" of the international law Russia crosses with TANKS international border with a country that herself has recognized as independent.

HIPOCRISY!

The LAW of a JUNGLE this is the law that Russia defends. Why don't they cross the border with CHINA with their bran new tanks? What are Russians trying to show that the elephant is stronger than the mouse?

You don't make a war to a neighbor for 20,000 countryman- WHO NO ONE EVER ENDAGERED. Georgia NEVER EVER in the history kicked out Russians form their homes and destroyed they ID and other documents in the border. A HUGE GIANT difference between Kosova and SO parallel.

SO its a village. Oh ye looking at the map it seems that has more land than 2 million Kosova- but of course Russinas love huge gardens ;) Expansionists!


"I am not Serb or Russian, I am just Greek. From a country that is one of the oldest EU and NATO members..."

(Pavlos, 9 August 2008 23:52)

Pavlos: you are member of those organizations because they (EU AND US) SAVED you from the Communism in your CIVIL WAR.

You are member of those organizations but NEVER been LOVED.

Paralel Kosova-SO:

Kosova is almost 40% of teh Albanian nation and was oppressed for decades by a country which is more or less big as the Albo nation but who has a strong protector and sponsor- Russia

SO has 40,000 ppl HALF of whom are Russians that is 0.0001% of the Russian nation. Moreover, RUSSIANS IN SO WERE NEVER EVER HISTORICALY OPPRESED BY GEORGIANS.

There is HUGE QUALITY AND QUANTITY DIFFRENCE between Kosova and SO case. HUGE differences, in MORAL AND IN PRINCIPLE.

"Next, Serbia will ask for Russian missles. Stay tuned sports fans. This is geting interesting."

Never. They might have them, but Serbia cannot bring Russia in the middle of Europe.

BKK,
all those Albanians leaving in trains and tractors to FYROM and Albania were going for a 3 month vacation and burned their houses before they left too. NATO thought they were ethnically cleansed and forced them to go back in Kosovo.

Well can Srbija now say "I told you so" this is not the only frozen conflict that will thaw.Everywhere that NATO goes is in trouble first
Serbs now Russians from the NATO vassal state.Please stop with the Serbs cleansed Albanians just ask the Albanians living around Beograd.It goes like this.
NATO attacked Srbija for a terror cause and NATO has backed Geogria to give the courage to attack Russia and yes Russia reacteed with a heavy had because Georgia did not respect Ossetian independence that was unitalteral just like the Albanians.Please stop with the moral high ground because no one has it especially not Kosovo.

Morten Denmark: "Imagine if south-ossetia was kosovo and imagine if Russia was USA and imagine if Georgia was Serbia... Do I have to say more ???."

It is NOT the same. Soviet federalism was a fiction. All decisions were taken in Moscow. Yugoslavian fedralism was real. Kosovo unlike South Ossetia was a real state, a subject of the Yugoslav federation. South Ossetia, like Georgia were administrativ areas.
Southe Ossetians were never more than 70 000 , few percent of the total Goegrian population. Georgia could give them any right they want and remain a uninational state. Kosovo Albanians make more than 20% of Serbia's population, provided that it remains in Serbia. If they voted in any Serbian election they could have blocked the formation of any government.
The Serbs and the Kosovars differ in religion, Ossetians, like Georgians are Orthodox! I don't know what happened in Ossetia, but in Abkhazia, the seperatist cleansed 70% of the local population, which was Georgian!

Yet the Georgian attempt to reintegrate South Ossetia proved to be a mad adventure with dire consequences.

laki bani

"Hey Russia come on, isn’t South Ossetia a part of a sovereign state? Aren’t Georgians just trying to restore their right to rule over their entire geographical terrain?"

Russia intervened to stop an army from destroying a city and killing its people. Why should NATO have attacked Serbia over Kosovo, which was a part of Serbia's sovereignty? Why shouldn't Serbia restore its right to its sovereign terrain? You think Ossetians want to live under Georgian rule? You don't need to answer me, because you know that I am right here.

"But my dear Russian fellows, you should be aware of your chronically weakness; if you remember you couldn’t beat Afghanistan rebels even as USSR, together with these Georgian guys and many other allies."

"Russians must keep in mind that they aren’t Americans."

Georgians have already been driven out of South Ossetia. Besides, America is also getting their backside kicked in Afghanistan by the Taliban.

Americans lost Vietnam, while Iraq and Afghanistan are total failures for them too, so how are they worse than Russia?

Can't believe how the "defender" of the international law Russia crosses with TANKS international border with a country that herself has recognized as independent.

HIPOCRISY!
(ben, 10 August 2008 15:16)

Because they have the mandate of UN to be present in South Osetia. Like NATO crosses international borders and it's on the Serbia's territory ( = Kosovo). You maybe do not know, but Russian tanks are allowed into South Osetia.

Hipocrisy? Yes. Precisely on your side.

---------------------------------

The World of news says lies to you much... Even if and so, I have many friends from Abkhazia and all of them hate Georgia and call for association with Russia. Sorry, if I have some mistakes)
(Elvina, 10 August 2008 18:12)

It is a very new, sad and abnormal development, that Georgia is hated in Russia or Abkhazia. However, unlike the present situation in Osetia, the war in Abkhazia was a dirty business on the Abkhaz side, backed by Russia. According the "wiki" (copy-pasting, sorry) "the ethnic cleansing of Georgians has been recognized officially by the OSCE conventions of Lisbon, Budapest and Istanbul (also mentioned in UN General Assembly Resolution GA/10708)."

Same Wiki also said, Georgian side was by far not innocent either - see the Georgian/Chechen attack on Abkhazia in 2001.

I have always been a western opponent of Kosovo independence and based on those same exact principles I am opposed to Russian interference and South Ossetian and Abkhazian independence.
(Lunger, 10 August 2008 23:51)

Same here, but there are several "twists" in the Russian-Ossetian-Abkhazian-Georgian conflict, what indeed makes it a "special case".

These twists do not exist in Kosovo, we can rather argue about Kavkaz being a "special case": there is a great number of dual/multiple citizens in the area with mutually "incompatible" citizenships, like Georgian-Russian. That means, each side of the conflict can cry out loudly and ethnic-cleanse an other with the excuse, they are protecting own citizens.

An other twist are certain "border-corrections" made by stalin by intent, to keep everyone vulnerable to somebody else. Typically, Stapanakert area, South Osetia, etc. While - arguably - Tito made some (unlucky?) efforts to put the ethnic conflicts away, stalin did the opposite: he made border corrections such way, that ethnic conflicts became pre-programed.

Russian interference is currently mandated by the UN: like NATO forces on the Serbian territory, they are the "peacekeepers" in Abkhazia and Osetia. It is of course not a good thing, but it looks increasingly, their opponent is a madman.

Saakashvili acted in the same spirit he acted in November of 2007 against own people: heavy-handed and without much thinking. He deployed "Grad" rocket lanchers and howitzers against a city. Who knows, what howitzers are for and what "Grad" does is not surprised at the high number of civil casualties.

If Serbs were intolerant and violent, there wouldn't be 2 million of you in Kosovo.


(BKK, 11 August 2008 00:50)

It is obvious that among some Serbs there is a huge probelm in accepting the reality.

In Kosova there are 2 million Albanians thanks NOT to the Serbian tolerance in 1999 but THANKS TO TEH NATO INTERNETION. the entire world knows this, but unfortunatley not many Serbs.

Peter: Thank you for precisation. Hoewer, they are naturalised Russians.

The point is that a countruy does not enter in war with her neighbour for micro-minority. In this case the pretecs ans I underlyne teh pretecs is about something more than 20,000 people. Moreover if no one endagers these people. Greorgia never historicaly did endeagered them.

The issu is that Russia through Gerogia wants to controle teh southern and with that the entire Caucasus and teh rich kaspian see area and increase the DEPENDENCE of teh west to the Russian political will.

Now I hope that it is more clearer the stake here and the which side wants what.

From the moral point of view I cannot accept that a country eners in war with neighbour for 20,000 people who no one endagers. Moreover if this country is permanent member of UNSC and is 34 times bigger than the neighbour.

Why doouesn't enetr Poland in war with Ukraine or other neighbouring country where much more significant portion of Polish people is minority there. Or Germany with Poland.

The issue is not the rights here it is simply teh controle of the routes of oil and the geo-strategic advantage that that controle will give to Russia.

By heavily bombing Georgia Russia wants to say to teh Georgians: 'you wanted your "democratic" turn with Shakashvili but whach how irresponsable he is and how unrealiable teh west is. Your fate is with Russia. You don't need western "experiments" you are much safer being close to Russia'.

And with this bring a new and more Russian friendly Gov.t in Tbilisi. This is the message.

More than owninig the natural resourses (that indeed owns a lot) Russia owns the chanels of transportation of the gas and oil- this is what is wants in Caucasus.

BKK
"If Serbs cleansed you like you keep on screaming they have, there wouldn't be as many of you in Kosovo as there are.
If Serbs were intolerant and violent, there wouldn't be 2 million of you in Kosovo."

You sure are funny...Didn't Seriba kill more than 10,000 civilians, according to your beloved UN mission settled by 1224 Resolution of SC. More than 800,000 deported, and the rest living in the mountains escaping masacres! How about villages and town burned to ground...

That is a bad joke that Russian army are peace keepers. Ossetia, Abakazia are used by the Russians in their geo political games. The Russians had never any intentions of returning back to Georgia the areas or allowing the ethnic cleansed Georgians back. Russia is big part of the problem not even close to a workable solution nor want a peaceful solution. They even arm the rebel areas and do every thing they can to undermine Georgia hoping it will give up or collapse in some way.

“Dmitry Medvedev said his country had begun an operation "to force the Georgian side to peace".

I just can’t believe how arrogant and cynical Russian authorities can be.

You are sending the third wave (the first in beginning of 90s, the second this Friday and the third today) of your army there to DEFEAT and HUMILIATE Georgia.

No SERIOUS country would ever do such a thing to her neighbor for an enclave of 20,000 people who NO ONE ENDAGERS, neither Liechtenstein with 40,000 population. But this is perfectly normal for 150 million Russia.

What wants Russia in Georgia? Russian in Ossetia and Abhkasia are not even 0.001% of the Russian nation. It wants land? Why they don’t have enough- watch the map- they have almost double more land than China with 1.3 billion populations.

The shame and hypocrisy in the totalitarian cultures are unknown notions.

So the naked Russian agression of bombing Georgian territory continues. This will be a rude awaikening for all those European peaceniks, who wanted to make believe that imperialist Russia changed radically.
Also in the US presidential campaign it comes at the right moment: it justifies McCain's long stated realistic views of a dangereous and revangeful Russia. Following the latest developments McCain appeard immediately decicive, hard and presidential while Obama - just like expected -ridiculously weak, type of Jeamy Carter.
Further developments in Georgia will be of great importance not only for small, agressed Georgia but also for the future of Europe and the political direction in the US.

Russia has to accept the international law and leave Georgia.
It is against the international law to send troops to Georgia since Georgia is an internationally recognized country...
I hope that the Serbs here agree with me when I mention the international law since the Serbs here were using the international law as an argument against Kosova's declaration of Independence.
lets see now if Serbs are people that keep the word and that do not change each time just because of their interest. Lets see if they still agree that the international law shouldnt be broken and that Georgia should leave the internationally recognized independent country of georgia.
Thanks

Good luck to the Russians from further attacks from this NATO aggression from this NATO wannabee state. Once they are finished with Georgia, please come and help liberate us from Camp Bondsteel, which is illegally occupying sovereign Serbian soil.
Cheers!

Well, well, the Russians thought that they will have an easy promenade in Georgia showing up their newest armor thanks to the oil money.
But little Georgia gives so far the impression of a brave David. Under the latest flash "Russian troops raid Georgian town, scores dead" (and yes not from CNN!!!)I just read that so far 10 Russian planes were shot down and Georgian forces knocked out about 40 Russian tanks around Tikhinvali. Even if these numbers were exaggerated it would be fantastic exploit from a small David defending his country. Small Finland of 1940 comes to my mind giving such a great lesson to the invading big bear.
Big ravaging bear admitted 2 planes lost already earlier. Maybe it had no choice since 2 pilots were shown on Georgian TV.
I have the impression that the Russian badly miscalculated. Gone are the days when they got opposed only with Molotov cocktails like in Budapest in 1956.
The brave Georgians deserve the full admiration of the world.

Ataman,

I was kind of shocked in view of your absurd statements. So according to you if someone is not from Russia or the Caucasus (as Russian you used Kavkaz, the Russian word) he should not express his opinion at all. Leave it to the dear Russkies until they create a cemetery type peace just like they did in Tchechnia in the nineties. Are you so naive as to believe that just because Western politicians and democraties know very little about the history and customs of the Georgians as opposed - as an example - to that of France they will simply give the Russkies card blanche to do whatever they wish?
Anyway to make it short you will see that a lot of democratic Western countries will keep a very close eye on Georgia and ensure that it does not become a second Hungary 1956.

“Permanent members Britain, the U.S. and France, are pinpointing what they say is Russia's aggression as the key factor in the slide towards war”,

-How convenient to blame Russia for the problems in Shakasvili’s Georgia. As far as I know, Russia did not encourage Ossetia to insist on any form of independence. Had Russia insisted and helped break away by all means, the situation would have been already different. Instead, after the first conflicts occurred in this disputable province Russians walked into Ossetia as peacekeepers and provided peace (without insisting on independence and respecting Georgia’s sovereignty) until the moment Shakasvili decided to attack peacekeepers.

And why did Shakasvili dare to attack million times more powerful Russia? Did they think that Russia will just seat and watch while its citizens and peacekeepers have been brutally attacked by heavy artillery backed by air strikes?

If Shakasvili got green light from the USA and the EU to provoke Russia, then they are in real trouble since no one will help them to come out from this mess. They will be just lonely players. I am sure USA and the EU will do just nothing to help them. Their help will consist of continuous appeal for finding peaceful solutions and while the final solution for the peace is found, Georgia will be already heavily wounded and will need a lot of strength to recover and rise from the ashes.

Also, lets not forget that Georgians killed 1 400 civilians in only one day, which wars in ex YU makes look like a picnic. Well, Stalin is Georgian after all. ‘

So, I can just say go Russia, go. At least you are enough powerful to defend its citizens and oppose Georgian brutality backed by the USA and EU.

How could the Russians let the Georgians get away with killing over 1,400 civilians in one day and almost completely destroying the capital of S. Ossetia in that same day?

The Georgians also destroyed a hospital which had wounded South Ossetians.

The South Ossetians had not killed any Georgian civilians in the days and weeks before Georgia slaughtered these 1,400.

Instead there were only sniper and mortar exchanges between the Georgian army which was building up on Ossetia's border. Georgia planned this. Georgia has also been building up on Abkhazia's border.

Abkhazia though is said to have just started bombing Georgians in the gorge area of their country.

South Ossetia was annexed to Georgia under Stalin. Stalin was an ethnic Georgia who stole South Ossetia for Georgia.

Georgia must be made to pay for all the civilian infrastructure damage it wrought on Ossetia since it aggressed before even one of their civilians was killed.

In addition Georgia killed 10 Russian peacekeepers in their barracks in the surprise night attack.

The Russians have a right to punish the Georgians for their murder of the Russians until the Georgians are too subdued to carry out such a bold attack ever again.

"Also, lets not forget that Georgians killed 1 400 civilians in only one day, which wars in ex YU makes look like a picnic."
Srebrenica? It will always be there.

Srebrenica was military soldiers killed at the end of a war where they'd decapitated Serbs and destroyed scores of villages all around. Plus it was their commander Naser Oric who stabbed and bayoneted to death the first victim of the area - a Serb judge in Srebrenica.

Additionally they exaggerate the deaths and have even thrown in military deaths from Zepa which is a city south of Srebrenica and was another military base of Muslim soldiers in east Bosnia. They combine the Zepa dead and missing with Srebrenica to inflate their totals.

Ossetians had killed no Georgian civilians before this attack.

Further the the capital has no water and their are people buried under rubble and trapped in their homes.

Someone needs to come in an rescue the people buried under rubble from Georgian bombing. Someone also needs to get the people food and water as they have no electricity or other utilities working.

Here's one story of what the Georgians did to the Ossetians:

http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28708

War victim trapped in basement with son’s body

A woman is trapped in the basement of her bombed-out house in Tskhinvali after Georgia launched a ferocious missile attack early on Friday. RT contacted Paisia Sytnik by phone. She told us the body of her dead 20-year-old son was beside her.

”The planes are bombing us. I am sitting here is the basement. Fire is raging above us. Let somebody come and help us. Where are the peacekeepers? I am sitting here with other people. My son has been killed. Why nobody comes to save us? We’ve got people sitting here,” Paisia Sytnik said.

Tskhinvali suffered serious damage during Georgia’s missile offensive on Thursday and Friday. South Ossetian sources say more then 2,000 people were killed in the city, a figure Georgia denies.

The humanitarian situation in the city is grim with residents left without water or power supplies…

Russian Democrazy at Work!!!

Mathhew, dont forget that Russia has in fact is the only country that has recognized the South Osettia as independent country. The in fact russia has so much influence on osettians who also hold russian passports. Moreover, Russia has been constantly provoking Georgia and its integrity. Remember the spying jets? Its not like Georgia just woke and decided to this overnight. Anyhow I dont want to take sides. I also believe that Saakashvili undermined the russians and didnt expect their tanks rolling in so fast.
I also believe that one should not draw parallels with South ossetia and Kosovo. The 1500 number of deaths is the only version reported by Russia. They can say whatever they want and the problem is that there is no reliable data at this point given that the area is completely secluded and not many independent observers are there. Kosovo had years of suffarage through various means ending up with cleansing.I dont think saakashvili wanted to chopp off the ossetians. They simply wanted to get the area back together with the population and resolve this issue. The serbian leaders (back in 90s) wanted Kosovo BUT without the 2 million people.

The frightening parallels of one power bombing and invading another country to "bring it to the negoitating table" aside, we're talking about massive losses in life and property. If Russia wants to protect a particular enclave for its own political interests (like the US in Kosovo), that's one thing. But to actually target and bomb other parts of the country (again as in 1999), that's a major escalation of war. I'm not exactly sure what Moscow intends to do here. The dominoes may be falling, the Pandora's Box may be opening, but no one should be happy to see it.

i'm glad that russia is doing the right humanitarian thing by taking its humanitarian intervention outside of the disputed province and bombing towns in georgia, staunch western ally, as well. tbilisi should be next, and i hope tbilisians will understand that its for humanitarian reasons purely, in fact, for their own good. their regime is attacking these innocent separatists in a brutal manner and now all of georgia should be made to suffer, but humanely of course.
russians are doing well to adopt these western democratic values, this heritage almost, in dealing with ethnic and territorial disputes abroad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_bombing_of_the_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia
good luck, south ossetia, on your own way. thank you, russia and welcome back to where you belong, to being a big world power with huge humanitarian capabilities. i haven’t noticed anyone really so much as looking at Russia cross eyed for this fine humanitarian effort.

Don't be so quick in believing numbers of dead people etc. The number estimates are usually exact after wars end. How did they count 1400? While shooting at the same time?All within 2 days?

South Ossetia and Kosovo need to sit still. Neither country shall get indepence. I think it is a shame that Russia is picking a war with Georgia and Georgia should not be fighting a war with South Ossetia. This is only the start! Way to go USA. By recognizing Kosovo you have started your master plan to dissolve countries. That is why USA will only get stronger while other countries are fighting for little pieces of land. Image how powerful the former Jugoslavia would have been if they knew how to live together!

The brave Georgians deserve the full admiration of the world.
(Joe, 9 August 2008 20:47)

I agree with you Joe 100%. Respect and admiration to Georgians.

Can't believe how the "defender" of the international law Russia crosses with TANKS international border with a country that herself has recognized as independent.

HIPOCRISY!

The LAW of a JUNGLE this is the law that Russia defends. Why don't they cross the border with CHINA with their bran new tanks? What are Russians trying to show that the elephant is stronger than the mouse?

You don't make a war to a neighbor for 20,000 countryman- WHO NO ONE EVER ENDAGERED. Georgia NEVER EVER in the history kicked out Russians form their homes and destroyed they ID and other documents in the border. A HUGE GIANT difference between Kosova and SO parallel.

SO its a village. Oh ye looking at the map it seems that has more land than 2 million Kosova- but of course Russinas love huge gardens ;) Expansionists!


"I am not Serb or Russian, I am just Greek. From a country that is one of the oldest EU and NATO members..."

(Pavlos, 9 August 2008 23:52)

Pavlos: you are member of those organizations because they (EU AND US) SAVED you from the Communism in your CIVIL WAR.

You are member of those organizations but NEVER been LOVED.

Paralel Kosova-SO:

Kosova is almost 40% of teh Albanian nation and was oppressed for decades by a country which is more or less big as the Albo nation but who has a strong protector and sponsor- Russia

SO has 40,000 ppl HALF of whom are Russians that is 0.0001% of the Russian nation. Moreover, RUSSIANS IN SO WERE NEVER EVER HISTORICALY OPPRESED BY GEORGIANS.

There is HUGE QUALITY AND QUANTITY DIFFRENCE between Kosova and SO case. HUGE differences, in MORAL AND IN PRINCIPLE.

"Next, Serbia will ask for Russian missles. Stay tuned sports fans. This is geting interesting."

Never. They might have them, but Serbia cannot bring Russia in the middle of Europe.

BKK,
all those Albanians leaving in trains and tractors to FYROM and Albania were going for a 3 month vacation and burned their houses before they left too. NATO thought they were ethnically cleansed and forced them to go back in Kosovo.

If Serbs were intolerant and violent, there wouldn't be 2 million of you in Kosovo.


(BKK, 11 August 2008 00:50)

It is obvious that among some Serbs there is a huge probelm in accepting the reality.

In Kosova there are 2 million Albanians thanks NOT to the Serbian tolerance in 1999 but THANKS TO TEH NATO INTERNETION. the entire world knows this, but unfortunatley not many Serbs.

Peter: Thank you for precisation. Hoewer, they are naturalised Russians.

The point is that a countruy does not enter in war with her neighbour for micro-minority. In this case the pretecs ans I underlyne teh pretecs is about something more than 20,000 people. Moreover if no one endagers these people. Greorgia never historicaly did endeagered them.

The issu is that Russia through Gerogia wants to controle teh southern and with that the entire Caucasus and teh rich kaspian see area and increase the DEPENDENCE of teh west to the Russian political will.

Now I hope that it is more clearer the stake here and the which side wants what.

From the moral point of view I cannot accept that a country eners in war with neighbour for 20,000 people who no one endagers. Moreover if this country is permanent member of UNSC and is 34 times bigger than the neighbour.

Why doouesn't enetr Poland in war with Ukraine or other neighbouring country where much more significant portion of Polish people is minority there. Or Germany with Poland.

The issue is not the rights here it is simply teh controle of the routes of oil and the geo-strategic advantage that that controle will give to Russia.

By heavily bombing Georgia Russia wants to say to teh Georgians: 'you wanted your "democratic" turn with Shakashvili but whach how irresponsable he is and how unrealiable teh west is. Your fate is with Russia. You don't need western "experiments" you are much safer being close to Russia'.

And with this bring a new and more Russian friendly Gov.t in Tbilisi. This is the message.

More than owninig the natural resourses (that indeed owns a lot) Russia owns the chanels of transportation of the gas and oil- this is what is wants in Caucasus.

BKK
"If Serbs cleansed you like you keep on screaming they have, there wouldn't be as many of you in Kosovo as there are.
If Serbs were intolerant and violent, there wouldn't be 2 million of you in Kosovo."

You sure are funny...Didn't Seriba kill more than 10,000 civilians, according to your beloved UN mission settled by 1224 Resolution of SC. More than 800,000 deported, and the rest living in the mountains escaping masacres! How about villages and town burned to ground...

Morten Denmark: "Imagine if south-ossetia was kosovo and imagine if Russia was USA and imagine if Georgia was Serbia... Do I have to say more ???."

It is NOT the same. Soviet federalism was a fiction. All decisions were taken in Moscow. Yugoslavian fedralism was real. Kosovo unlike South Ossetia was a real state, a subject of the Yugoslav federation. South Ossetia, like Georgia were administrativ areas.
Southe Ossetians were never more than 70 000 , few percent of the total Goegrian population. Georgia could give them any right they want and remain a uninational state. Kosovo Albanians make more than 20% of Serbia's population, provided that it remains in Serbia. If they voted in any Serbian election they could have blocked the formation of any government.
The Serbs and the Kosovars differ in religion, Ossetians, like Georgians are Orthodox! I don't know what happened in Ossetia, but in Abkhazia, the seperatist cleansed 70% of the local population, which was Georgian!

Yet the Georgian attempt to reintegrate South Ossetia proved to be a mad adventure with dire consequences.

In other reports it's quite amusing listening to Condoleeza Rice, (US cabinet officer) asking Russian forces to leave S Ossetia and for Russia to respect territorial integrity! Somehow I think the US should ask themselves about territorial integrity...Afghanistan, Iraq....and its own country! Perhaps the US will now launch a bombardment on Russian troops? No, of course not, the mighty US wouldn't pick on a bigger and better nation!!

While indeed South Ossetia is a part of Georgia's integrity as per international law and Russia should not be meddling in its affairs, the fact that Georgia attacked the Ossetians with heavy weaponry, destroying 70% of the city, killing 1 600 people and creating 30 000 refugees is simply inexcusable. Here I actually agree with Russia's intervention, as indeed this situation smells a little of the 1999 war in Kosovo, except that one should replace Russia with NATO, Georgia with Serbia and Kosovo with South Ossetia.

I am curious to know what will happen next. There has been
two wars and countless insurgencies in this region, so one has to ask: can these people really live with one another under one state? I am sorry, in the past I can agree that South Ossetia was the instigator of the previous conflicts due to their aggressive separatism, but what Georgia has done now is shot itself in the foot. It has attacked and killed innocent people as well as peace keepers (which include Georgian soldiers), which has shown it has no interest whatsoever in the people of South Ossetia, just their land (under the premise of international law and hope that NATO will come and support them in their quest).

I am glad NATO is staying out of this. Russia should drive the Georgians out and bring the Georgians and Ossetians to the negotiating table under international supervision in order to discuss future status, just like in Kosovo.

In the past few days, Georgia has solidified the opinion that Shakashvili is a a tyrant like Lukashenko of Belarus, only siding with the Western Empire and not the Eastern. I pray that such a country does not enter NATO and that the people can vote for a president without this guy rigging the votes like Lukashenko has done before.

Very sad world this has become. Georgia should belong to the people and not this imperialist and his ideas (especially considering that most Georgians do not want him in power in the first place).

The Domino Effect has begun...

Hungarian TV of course also reported the fighting, but as they said, "it's unclear how it broke out" and they stay away to comment it "pro" or "contra".

The ethnic map of Kavkaz can be seen here:

http://tinyurl.com/6zssd9

If you look at it, the situation around Kosovo seem to be a piece of cake. Just consider, that Eduard Shevarnadze who was the head of Georgia before Saakashvili for extended period of his life was also the FM of USSR.

For Serbs, this is a tragedy because essentially two of their allies fight. If anyone does not know: Russian and Georgian culture is very much mingled together and this is a huge tragedy. These ought to be one whole. Russians will never forget the Georgian general Bagrationi, the hero of Borodino battle against Napoleon and of course, not the general Miloradovic, an other hero of the same battle.

Many Russians and some Georgians do blame Saakashvili, but IMO, there is also somewhat else. Saakashvili is a very talented man, but for me he seem to be young, inexperienced and not really fit for politcs. He has a lot of influence from his wife, who is a native of Netherlands and is a dual NL-Georgian citizen. She, too seem to have good intents, but the execution is a different story. Their opponent is a ruthless political chess-player who as an ex-KGB official is the best at conspiracy and politics. He is popular because after years filled with vodka he brought stability and relative prosperity, but as part of the KGB baggage he does not have empathy towards the quality of life of even own citizens. Neither his own citizens, nor traditional allies (Serbia and ex-ally Georgia) should expect from Putin more, than what he "grants" to own citizens.

Albanians should not dance in joy, because their "ally" is even worse and has a long history of abandoning - see South Vietnam, Czechoslovakia in 1968, Hungary in 1956, Taiwan.

Georgia (like Ukraine) is filled with influental American "expats", who claim to be experts of everything and know everything. In the reality, many of these "expats" have difficulty of their own life (mostly family-related) and try to find their private happiness in Ukraine or Georgia. (Guess, what does it mean). It is a mistake to equal these losers to official American politics. They are adventurers and do most things on their own. They rarely find the happiness they seek (certain things money just can't buy), but screwing (up) things in local politics is easier than just screwing around.

Getting rid of these self-proclaimed "experts" by putting them on the first airplane out of Georgia would be a good first step.

I am sure, these "experts" can be found in Pristina in great numbers. First what Albo's should do is to ask these "expert" cautiously about their family and private life. ;)

This could answer some of the questions, esp, what "bmrusila" asked. If indeed, these self-proclaimed "experts" do have much influence in Georgian politics, than such action is understandable. If Saakashvili cannot see the trees because of the forest, he is not fit to be a politician.

As for how much should we trust the media like CNN regarding this war - please look again at mixing Budapest with Belgrade if it's suits their needs:

http://tinyurl.com/6o46qo

What did hitler say after the british bombed berlin? "Two can play at that game, soldier". The Russians are conducting "humanitarian bombing" in order to stop the "ethnic cleansing" of Ossetia by the "evil" Georgian military. Western hypocrisy used against it now. Again, this has nothing to do with the people in the area. Putin is rubbing bush's face in the dirt just like nato did to yeltsin in 1999. Negotiation is always the answer, but since the west refuses to negotiate, they reap what they sow.

South Ossetia and Kosovo need to sit still. Neither country shall get indepence. I think it is a shame that Russia is picking a war with Georgia and Georgia should not be fighting a war with South Ossetia. This is only the start! Way to go USA. By recognizing Kosovo you have started your master plan to dissolve countries. That is why USA will only get stronger while other countries are fighting for little pieces of land. Image how powerful the former Jugoslavia would have been if they knew how to live together!

Following the latest developments McCain appeard immediately decicive, hard and presidential while Obama - just like expected -ridiculously weak, type of Jeamy Carter.
(Joe, 9 August 2008 16:33)

For God's sake, Joe - I understand if you feel being right to contribute to Serbian-Albanian conflict because you are coming from a country which is the neighbor of Serbia.

But can you please enlighten us, what your views/knowledge about Russia and Kavkaz are based on? You lived in Russia? You know people from Kavkaz? You are sure, Russia is evil, Sakartvelo is good? What is Sakartvelo, after all? Where is Kura, what is Ahulgo, who was Shota Rustaveli, who was Bagrationi, where Sveti Tskhoveli, where is Alaverdi, who is St. Nino, what is Tiflis, how to make a Khinkali or Harcho.... my god, this all is ELEMENTARY knowledge, I know that, I wasn't in Sakartvelo, I don't claim for a single second anything, in the fact I am really ignorant about Kavkaz...but I (kind of) know Russia, more-less. And I openly say, I do not know anything, it's really much more complicated than it seems.

Please, really, as it is said in Hungarian: "aki nem tud arabusul ne beszéljen arabusul" (who does not know Arabic, should not talk Arabic)

BTW: I am curious, what "your" McCan will do. Talk tough and send more "experts" to Sakartvelo who are lonely and urgently need a Kartvellian/Russian/Oset girl to marry? Thanks, they are abundant. Any other idea? :-(

thank you russia for liberating s-ossetia.

and also thank you for having mercy with the orthodox nation in georgia.

they - of course - aren´t to blame for living under a us-backed dictator and war criminal.

just like the majority in serbia on 11th may didn´t vote for ds and their buddy palma, with whom they share values, but here we are, living under tadic.

But to actually target and bomb other parts of the country (again as in 1999), that's a major escalation of war. I'm not exactly sure what Moscow intends to do here.

(Mike, 9 August 2008 18:20)

Mike, it maybe escaped your attention, but what city was allegedly bombed, did you notice? I bet, the name was given, without explanation. But it has a very special meaning.

“I hope that the Serbs here agree with me when I mention the international law since the Serbs here were using the international law as an argument against Kosova's declaration of Independence. (Afrim Hoxha, 9 August 2008 09:46)”

Afrim, Russia is not going in there to create an independent state, but in response to massive civilian causalities in the Capital.

Don’t forget there were only 2,000 deaths in Kosovo before the NATO bombing (over a very long period), which was triggered by Racek, in which only 45 people died. Here we have an aggression resulting in the deaths of 1500 civilians in a single day in a single city, nearly matching the entire death figure that led up to the NATO bombing. Surely Russia has more right to keep the peace in such a far more dangerous situation. Can you imagine what would have happened in Serbia had tried something similar in Pristina before the NATO bombing?

Do not forget the Official Serbian position is in support of Peacekeepers in Kosovo and “More than autonomy, less than Independence”. So I see no contradiction in supporting a similar stance in Georgia. No one is calling for independence of those regions in Georgia, not even Russia. Serbia is not threatening nor demanding or even insinuating the desire to send tanks in Pristina to solve the current crisis.

In fact, its “Camp Kosovo” here that are the ones who are contradicting themselves. You strongly supported Independence and bombing as a result of just 2000 causalities in Kosovo (before the NATO bombing) yet fail to call for similar solutions to the problems in Georgia.

I guess 1500 innocent Russian civilians are somehow worth less than a similar number of innocent Albanian civilians. However, I’m not surprised, if your views were consistent, you would support the partition of Kosovo (as I do).

Russia and Serbia are facing similar situations, both saw areas of their country populated by their citizens (North of Kosovo, Ossetia) chopped off by Dictators of a different ethnicity (Stalin-Georgian, Tito-Croatian) and given to areas that traditionally have been hostile towards that population.

Saakashvili- he is necessary to be hung up heels over head, as Mussolini. He arranged the genocide of ossetic people and the Georgian people betrayed. It is talked that orange revolyuciya- revolution of roses, although probably it stank a dung. For him in general nobody voted almost, all elections had been conducted on the money of CIA.

"The city of Tskhinvali no longer exists," he said. "It is gone. The Georgian military has destroyed it."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551595.stm

Interesting to note, the Joe's "brave David" successfully killed 1500 civilians in a single day. Joe, please re-fresh your Hungarian and read the Hungarian news.

Like this: http://www.nol.hu/cikk/502908/

There you can read:

"A Dél-Oszétiában állomásozó orosz békefenntartó erõk összesen 15 katonája halt Chinvaliban meg azóta, hogy a grúz erõk csütörtök éjszaka nagyszabású hadmûveletet indítottak a szakadár tartomány fõvárosának bevételére"

Again, please re-read, who initiated the war:

"grúz erõk csütörtök éjszaka nagyszabású hadmûveletet indítottak"

Or are Hungarians Russian lapdogs lately?

An interesting thing to read is this:

"John Dorrian, az amerikai erõk európai parancsokságának szóvivõje a francia hírügynökségnek nyilatkozva hangoztatta: a Grúziában tartózkodó amerikai katonák semmilyen formában sem keveredtek bele a konfliktusba. Egy kétoldalú katonai együttmûködési program keretében a kaukázusi országban mintegy száz amerikai kiképzõtiszt tevékenykedik."

So we have - according John Dorrian (the speaker of command center of American forces in Europe) ca. 100 American military trainers in Georgia and gladly, they did stay away from the conflict. What they are doing in Georgia - sightsee the basilica of Alaverdi? Converting to Orthodox faith? ;)

An other "gem" you offered in an other post was to ask Turkish army to move-in into Sakartvelo. You know what would happen? Karvellians will cry bloody murder and it will be Saakashvili first, who will ask for Russian tanks to roll in Tbilisi, that would be a 180-degree turn. It looks, like you do not know, while the Kartvellian-Russian relationship had it's lows and highs (now it's rather low), the Kartvellian-Turkish relationship was rarely friendly. Recently it is better, but please read the history, why Sakartvelo asked Russia for protection.

Other "gems" I miss are the comments of Robert-O. Glad to know, he is already in Sarajevo, so probably some more professional insider infos about Georgia, Russia and Serbia will come soon. :(

Imagine if south-ossetia was kosovo and imagine if Russia was USA and imagine if Georgia was Serbia... Do I have to say more ???.

To ben:

Hey ben? Stop saying "science fiction" stories in here! The majority of the ossetian population supports Russia, and see your countrymen as enemies!

YOUR goverment started the attack and is responsible for almost destroyning the ossetian capital in the first days of the conflict. YOUR goverment is responsible for killing more than 1400 civilians in the ossetian capital in the next days!

And you accuse Russia of being aggressive??? Because they just responded to your 100% aggresion in the first days! What did you expect, that they would no nothing, to protect their citizens?? They would just let you destroy the ossetian capital and kill innocent ossetians???This is what your coward goverment hoped for???

When YOU start a war, when YOU destroy a capital, when YOU kill more than a 1000 innocent civilians, YOU must accept the concequences!

I am not Serb or Russian, I am just Greek. From a country that is one of the oldest EU and NATO members, the organizations that your goverment asks help from, now.

And I tell you that I as the majority of my countrymen, support Russia fully in that matter, simply because they have the right with their side!!

Comrade Joe

It is good to see you so strongly defending the communist redrawn borders of eastern and central Europe. Keep up the good work.

Have you begun your Mandarin lessons yet?

Forget about the past think of the future.

I will bid two blankets and three beans to buy back Alaska when your economically and morally defunct US regime begins selling the family jewels.

I agree that Russia had a mandate to defend the S.O. population, and that georgian forces' attack on civilians in Tshkinvali is absolutely unheard of. however, with their actions today, like bobmbing residential areas in Georgian cities waaay out of the conflict zone, Russia has reduced themselves to the same, pitiful, level as the georgians ( and the US, for that matter). It's a disgrace, and a disgusting act of war crime.

Georgia only wanted to provoke the Russians in anticipation of NATO intervention. My god, how these politicians can misread the obvious is stunning.
Georgia was hoping to play the "K-Albaninan card". It is incredible and unbelievable that the US/EU managed to play that card to begin with.
I'm sure bush is quite pleased with what Georgia has accomplished - another nail in the kosova UDI coffin.
bush is angry tonight.
Now the US/EU have to live with their studpidity and consequences of their stupidity.
Kosovo is Serbia.

Hajduk

telling you the truth, Serbia over Kosovo had it. Why Serbia does not support Georgia? how come?

Hey Russia come on, isn’t South Ossetia a part of a sovereign state? Aren’t Georgians just trying to restore their right to rule over their entire geographical terrain? Aren’t Georgians with their efforts to preserve sovereignty same time protecting ‘International Law” etc? . did you forget, what you’re proclaiming everywhere more than ten years now with Kosova case? You deny the rest of the world the right for self-governance (Kosova case, 3 Million Albanians) or better saying the rest of the world who don’t agree with your regressive view of the life, but you support satellites who obey communistic rule of functioning that you prefer, no matter if they are merely some 70.000 people
But my dear Russian fellows, you should be aware of your chronically weakness; if you remember you couldn’t beat Afghanistan rebels even as USSR, together with these Georgian guys and many other allies.
Russians must keep in mind that they aren’t Americans.

"The brave Georgians deserve the full admiration of the world.
(Joe, 9 August 2008 20:47)"

For what Joe, leveling a city and killing almost 2 000 civilians with heavy artillery and aerial bombardment? I can say the same thing about Serbia defending itself from NATO for such a long time and taking down a stealth fighter and a few other US planes, how does that make you feel? Come on, Georgia is clearly the aggressor here with a lot of blood on their hands, yet you show zero sympathy for the dead Ossetians, but get all melodramatic when you hear of Albanian deaths? Are you so blindly against Russia and blindly for America that human suffering can be measured in terms of allegiance? I know you won't reply to me because you know that I am right.

Here's a thought, since you blame Russia historically for so many things, why not blame Georgia, who are responsible for most of the suffering of post-war Hungary, especially since the guy who ordered everything, was a Georgian?

"Don't be so quick in believing numbers of dead people etc. The number estimates are usually exact after wars end. How did they count 1400? While shooting at the same time?All within 2 days?
(shqarthi, 9 August 2008 20:18)"

Right, so of course, the 10 000 dead Albanians in Kosovo is not an exaggerated figure but the 2 000 in Ossetia is? Of course it is possible to kill so many people in two days, if you shell the city with artillery and bombs.

The Georgians have lost my support and respect for this act. They can pretty much forget about NATO after this, as the European countries will not support their bid anymore.

“dont forget that Russia has in fact is the only country that has recognized the South Ossetia as independent country. (Albana, 9 August 2008 21:51)”

I’d be curious to see your source on that, as I’m 99% sure that Russia has not recognized South Ossetia., at least as recently as April.

http://eng.kavkaz-uzel.ru/newstext/engnews/id/1213158.html

“I also believe that one should not draw parallels with South ossetia and Kosovo. The 1500 number of deaths is the only version reported by Russia. They can say whatever they want and the problem is that there is no reliable data at this point given that the area is completely secluded and not many independent observers are there.”

If Russia is exaggerating the deaths, wouldn’t that be exactly like Kosovo? The US claimed 100,000 dead in Kosovo before the NATO bombing, we now know it was only 2,000 at that time.

“Why Serbia does not support Georgia? how come? (i DUNNO, 10 August 2008 03:15)”

Because the current Democratic government of Serbia supports PEACEFUL solutions to such types of conflicts based on dialogue and negotiation not killing civilians en mass. We’ve learned a lot over the last two decades.

Mathhew, dont forget that Russia has in fact is the only country that has recognized the South Osettia as independent country.
(Albana)

Before posting your comment please make sure to inform yourself a bit on the topic.

Just to tell you that South Ossetia has not been recognised by any UN member country, which means that even Russians did not recognise S.Ossetia as independent country.

Joe,

You may have your opinions. I also may have an opinion. But certain opinions like suggesting that Turkey would march in Georgia in order to help against Russia are indeed absurd. Someone who voices such opinions has not the slightest idea about the history of the region and mentality of the people.

The statement, that the word "Kavkaz" is Russian is equally absurd. That word ("Kavkaz") is used in several languages all over the region, so it's proper. For instance, AFAIK, Chechens use it. Turks use it. Circassians use it. Please make a slightest research before you make a statement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfUKy-4_vdo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-QSKZyq5SM

Don't say these are Russians and that the movie was made by Russian.

For you, these are Russians, too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkPK5fGiDn0

You can read the comment from youtube user "veaymete" who is (click on his name) certainly a Russian and the language is (for you) also in Russian:

"birbirinden güzel yavrularimiza kucak dolusu sevgiler..Kafkas,Kırım ve Laz havalarını bir potada eritip bütünleyen evlatlarımızıda büyüklerini de Tanrı Korusun.."

OK, we probably can move on with that "Russian" word Kavkaz/Kavkas.

----------------------------------------------------

Otherwise, indeed, this seem to be a puzzle: why a rather sympathetically looking, young politician who seem to be pro-democracy and firmly against the old regime, who is from a very respectable family acting like Saakashvili.

The common knowledge I just learned today from firmly "pro-Western" Russians who are normally firmly against the group around Putin is very interesting.

According these sources, Saakashvili has huge influences of the American "expats" who are NOT equal American foreign policy. That means, my opinion I did voice earlier was backed, we did not discuss it earlier. These guys are pure adveturers (but don't feel jealous about them - the main reason they are in Georgia/Sakarvelo, Ukraine and other close-by places is deeply personal and very sad, they can be described in USA as "losers")

The entire action was orchestered by this circle. It has probably zero backing of any official "Western" (including bushite!) politics, alone for the reason that no one wants a direct armed conflict with Russia. The timing was for Olympics. The proof, no one was expecting: every head of every country what counts was in Beijing.

The goal of the action: EXTERMINATE the South Ossetians as ethnic element. This explains the very high number of civilian and very low number of military casualties: 14 Russian peacekeepers versus now over 2000 civilians and 30000 refugees.

These are the news I learned today from "my" sources who are - again - very critical to Putin, "pan-slavism" and imperial ambitions. I cannot back with any proof what these people told me yet, but it (including Saakashvili being a "junker") sound plausible.

----------------------------------------------------

I fully agree with Peter Sudyka: with this action Georgia's NATO membership hopes are probably gone. It was a "guerrila action", completely uncoordinated within NATO and "politically incorrect". Saakashvili should listen less to girl-hungry American "expats" - or if what my contacts are correct - to his hallucinations during the time he "flies".

laki bani

"Hey Russia come on, isn’t South Ossetia a part of a sovereign state? Aren’t Georgians just trying to restore their right to rule over their entire geographical terrain?"

Russia intervened to stop an army from destroying a city and killing its people. Why should NATO have attacked Serbia over Kosovo, which was a part of Serbia's sovereignty? Why shouldn't Serbia restore its right to its sovereign terrain? You think Ossetians want to live under Georgian rule? You don't need to answer me, because you know that I am right here.

"But my dear Russian fellows, you should be aware of your chronically weakness; if you remember you couldn’t beat Afghanistan rebels even as USSR, together with these Georgian guys and many other allies."

"Russians must keep in mind that they aren’t Americans."

Georgians have already been driven out of South Ossetia. Besides, America is also getting their backside kicked in Afghanistan by the Taliban.

Americans lost Vietnam, while Iraq and Afghanistan are total failures for them too, so how are they worse than Russia?

Hello everybody! My name is Elvina,
I'm from St.-Petersburg. I'm student of political sciens and... Sometimes I work teenager magazins.
Forgive for lovely intervention,
but it would be desirable to tell pair words (likely owing to
my rage to Georgia). Anybody from Russia now does not speak
against USA. You and me - we are people. And I think
that all can be better, If we will be respect Each other.
But, can you say me about this: you have not journalists
in Sout Osetia and you didn't see trouble that greogian
soldier force peace inhabitants and kill us and them...
You have some journalists in Greogia, when Saakashvili.
Georgians have killed about our 100 soldier. Our soldiers have
killed nearby 10 Georgian are valid calculations... And we help everybody, when Georgia kill our hospital-car...
The World of news says lies to you much... Even if and so,
I have many friends from Abkhazia and all of them hate
Georgia and call for association with Russia.
Sorry, if I have some mistakes)

Can't believe how the "defender" of the international law Russia crosses with TANKS international border with a country that herself has recognized as independent.

HIPOCRISY!
(ben, 10 August 2008 15:16)

Because they have the mandate of UN to be present in South Osetia. Like NATO crosses international borders and it's on the Serbia's territory ( = Kosovo). You maybe do not know, but Russian tanks are allowed into South Osetia.

Hipocrisy? Yes. Precisely on your side.

---------------------------------

The World of news says lies to you much... Even if and so, I have many friends from Abkhazia and all of them hate Georgia and call for association with Russia. Sorry, if I have some mistakes)
(Elvina, 10 August 2008 18:12)

It is a very new, sad and abnormal development, that Georgia is hated in Russia or Abkhazia. However, unlike the present situation in Osetia, the war in Abkhazia was a dirty business on the Abkhaz side, backed by Russia. According the "wiki" (copy-pasting, sorry) "the ethnic cleansing of Georgians has been recognized officially by the OSCE conventions of Lisbon, Budapest and Istanbul (also mentioned in UN General Assembly Resolution GA/10708)."

Same Wiki also said, Georgian side was by far not innocent either - see the Georgian/Chechen attack on Abkhazia in 2001.

Elvina,

We don’t need Western so called unbiased journalists (because they are very biased) to learn what is going on in Georgia and Ossetia.

We are all very well informed that Georgia begun to kill civilians and peacekeepers in S.Ossetia and that Russia responds the way it is supposed to, as a real country.

Those who ignore to see the truth are just Russophobes (and they are mostly Albanians who occupy this web site in order to express their views on the matter).

Rest assured that Serbia is with Russia by all its heart, but unfortunately no other support we can offer but moral one.

We hope and wish that cease fire takes place very soon and Russia taking complete control over S.Ossetia.

Best regards from Serbia and Kosovo

ben

Just one thing, the people in South Ossetia are not Russians, but Ossetians, an Iranic ethnic group and not Slavic. This area was once independent too, but it was butted onto Georgia by Stalin in the 30's because he was half Georgian and Ossetian.

Provoke Russia? Perhaps they were trying to 'prove' their worth for Nato membership by trying to impress Brussels. Too bad this will backfire and they are in grave danger in loosing 20 to 30 % of their territory for good. Russia will only strengthen its resolve now to control (de-facto annex?) both South Ossentia AND Abkhasia. Moreover, the fragile Caspian pipelin to the West is now in danger of stoppage, perhaps damage. Whoever is behind this mess has miscalculated horribly and the results will be enduring. The West's oil supply just got worse. Large parts of Georgia are falling into Russia's hands. Next, Serbia will ask for Russian missles. Stay tuned sports fans. This is geting interesting.

"Right, so of course, the 10 000 dead Albanians in Kosovo is not an exaggerated figure but the 2 000 in Ossetia is? Of course it is possible to kill so many people in two days, if you shell the city with artillery and bombs."
(Peter Sudyka, 10 August 2008 10:53)

Peter Sudyka, I was talking about the impossibility of counting and coming up with an exact estimate of casualties in conditions of war, which by the way had just started. Not of the impossibility of killing.
Also I was talking about what is happening there now, what does the number of the Albanians have to do with what is happening between Georgia and Russia?

""How could the Russians let the Georgians get away with killing over 1,400 civilians in one day and almost completely destroying the capital of S. Ossetia in that same day?"" - ida

Ask yourself then, how could the US/NATO allow Serbia to ethnically cleanse Kosovo of around 800,000 civilians?
It mgiht be impossible for some Serbs to see the parallels of the situation.
Any Serb that lets his man-love for Russia and are overjoyed to see Russia violate Georgian territory need to re-evaluate their Kosovo position, otherwise you are a hypocrite of the worst order.
I have always been a western opponent of Kosovo independence and based on those same exact principles I am opposed to Russian interference and South Ossetian and Abkhazian independence.

Lunger,

source of your ridiculous claim?
If Serbs cleansed you like you keep on screaming they have, there wouldn't be as many of you in Kosovo as there are.
If Serbs were intolerant and violent, there wouldn't be 2 million of you in Kosovo.
There aren't as many of you in the Balkans as you like to think.

The point is Georgia got over confident about their 'friends' and 'allies', just like Albanians bordering on doing. Do not for a second think that you are secial, unique.

I have always been a western opponent of Kosovo independence and based on those same exact principles I am opposed to Russian interference and South Ossetian and Abkhazian independence.
(Lunger, 10 August 2008 23:51)

Same here, but there are several "twists" in the Russian-Ossetian-Abkhazian-Georgian conflict, what indeed makes it a "special case".

These twists do not exist in Kosovo, we can rather argue about Kavkaz being a "special case": there is a great number of dual/multiple citizens in the area with mutually "incompatible" citizenships, like Georgian-Russian. That means, each side of the conflict can cry out loudly and ethnic-cleanse an other with the excuse, they are protecting own citizens.

An other twist are certain "border-corrections" made by stalin by intent, to keep everyone vulnerable to somebody else. Typically, Stapanakert area, South Osetia, etc. While - arguably - Tito made some (unlucky?) efforts to put the ethnic conflicts away, stalin did the opposite: he made border corrections such way, that ethnic conflicts became pre-programed.

Russian interference is currently mandated by the UN: like NATO forces on the Serbian territory, they are the "peacekeepers" in Abkhazia and Osetia. It is of course not a good thing, but it looks increasingly, their opponent is a madman.

Saakashvili acted in the same spirit he acted in November of 2007 against own people: heavy-handed and without much thinking. He deployed "Grad" rocket lanchers and howitzers against a city. Who knows, what howitzers are for and what "Grad" does is not surprised at the high number of civil casualties.

Well can Srbija now say "I told you so" this is not the only frozen conflict that will thaw.Everywhere that NATO goes is in trouble first
Serbs now Russians from the NATO vassal state.Please stop with the Serbs cleansed Albanians just ask the Albanians living around Beograd.It goes like this.
NATO attacked Srbija for a terror cause and NATO has backed Geogria to give the courage to attack Russia and yes Russia reacteed with a heavy had because Georgia did not respect Ossetian independence that was unitalteral just like the Albanians.Please stop with the moral high ground because no one has it especially not Kosovo.

Ben and Albanian et al,

nowhere in the world, in history EVER have the ethnically cleansed populations, or refugees returned to the area compltely.

If your houses were burned, where exactly did you return to?
For refugees, look at the Palestine and Israel incidents, look at Iraqi refugees and Afghanistan refugees - and those were the people that were 'liberated'.

Your claims demeen the real victims of war and the real refugees who cannot return to their place of residence, not only because of fear, but because of the fact that they have nowhere to return to.

South Ossetians are protected by Russians yet they flee, and many will never return due to the utter distruction of their land.

So stop with the victim complex. Noone believes it anymore, not even your Western puppet masters.
You are a failed experiement, and Kosovo will always remain in Serbia.
America will desert you as will EU.
If you were that valuable to the EU, Albania would already have a candidate status, or even be a member.
Instead, you're poorest country in region and Europe. If you couldn't make anything of Albania, you will not make anything of Kosovo.

But that should not be a concern, since as long as there is Serbia, you will not have Kosovo i Metohia and you will not participate in any international organization. End.

I have a terrible sense of deja vu. An arrogant great power violates the territorial integrity of a small state claiming that it wants to prevent a campaign of ethnic cleansing by that state. It also undertakes a bombing campaign that focuses not just on the small state's military forces in the breakaway province but also on civilian targets in the rest of the country. I therefore find it outrageous that some posters here who are the most vehement on the naked violation of Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo are also the ones defending Russia's actions in Georgia. Serbia's sympathies must stand with Georgia's, because we find ourselves in the same boat, even if geopolitically as a state our government is in no position to criticize Russia because as a small country we rely on Russia to help sustain our rightful sovereign claims to Kosovo.

"Russia has to accept the international law and leave Georgia.
It is against the international law to send troops to Georgia since Georgia is an internationally recognized country..."

wow.

let aside that there is certainly a reason for it...that this territory is called north and south OSSETIA...

just like Kosovo is a serbian name for serbian territory, while Albanians up to the present day have no explanation or just even an idea of an albanian name, and please don´t come up with "dardania", since you Albanians have no historical connection to ancient dardania at all...

no this Albanian dares to argue with international law, unbelievable! in southern Serbia they violate it, but in South Ossetia they respect it.

while S. Milosevic was called a war-criminal for the attempt to bring back serbian territory under serbian control, Mr. Sakashvili is seen as a "democratic" western-oriented leader.

...I can remember the demonstrations against him in Tbilisi in November 2007, what has been a clear proof of how democratic he really is...

he even used tear gas and rubber bullets against his own people.

so the double-standards can´t be dispalayed any clearer.

and after all that sickening hypocrisy now an Albanian dares to take the word "international law" in his mouth...

unbelievable, indeed.


as far as I see it, the Aggressor was Sakashvili here, since he violated a peace treaty from 1992 which stipulated a peace-keeping force made of Ossetian, Georgian and Russian peace-keepers.

who forced this man to start a war? does anybody here believe that Sakashvili went to war without asking Washington for permission?
and what does it say about the " one and only global superpower " when they, together with the "most powerful military alliance of the world" can only sit there and watch the Russians pacifying the war-zone?

I can remember how some smart Albanians were philosophizing about Russia being a weak military-power... or how another Albanian wrote about the "georgian David who shot down 10 russian fighter-planes " ...while today, four days after the georgian aggression, russian military controls most of south Ossetia and the Georgians are withdrawing from all fronts and their irresponsible president is publicly whining for help from the US of A ...of course without even getting a direct answer.