Russians, Georgians in fierce battles

Sheer irony ..... Russian tanks go into Ossetia to "protect" Ossetians against Georgian brutality ..... just like Nato went into Kosovo to "protect" K-Albanians against Milosevic ..... and they say Kosovo will never be a precedent! what tosh!

And it is the West now who must utter the mantra about respect for the borders of all countries!

Very bad move by Georgia.

Not only have they engaged in warfare with civilians using heavy weaponry, but they are endangering NATO-Russian relations due to the fact that Georgia thinks that NATO is their new best friend and that they will support them if Russia intervenes on the side of the South Ossetians.

Very disappointing. Imagine now if Serbia threw its armies with heavy weaponry into Kosovo trying to claim it back. Actually, it would be interesting to see how NATO reacts to this issue.

Where are the strong statements of the Serbian President and government supporting Georgia in defending its territorial integrity?

Independence for me
Independence for you
If you break international law,
It'll break it too.

In the days of old
When men were bold
And diplomacy wasn't invented
They took their might
And started a fight
And went on quite contented.

And the moral of the story...

Monkey see,
Monkey do.
If it's good enough for Kosovo
It's good enough for you.

Albanians et al,

And where is America and Kosovo Albanians urging Russian independence?
Come on, support Russian minority for their independence...

Oh thats right...

Russia and Serbia had relations for hundreds and hundreds of years.
And no amount of drug/organ/human trafficking money could buy Albanians that relationship with any other country or nation.

America will sell you out, just like they sold out Saddam, just like they sold out Taliban and everyone else they ever employed while they needed them.
You share nothing with America - not common ground, not history, not religion. You are a tool for Americas obsession with Russia, the Middle East and oil. Get a grip.

Serbs and Russians traditionally had friendly relations for hundreds of years, as it will continue to do have them for hundreds more to come.

No amount of sneering and bitter comments can change that.

This conflict was just a matter of time, considering Saakashvili's unhealthy obsession with NATO and diktat.

Well, well, seems that new war has just started. Since Georgia decided to use excessive force I expect Russia will react in absolutely same manner.

Once you play with fire it is very easy for it to spiral out of control on the simpletons Russian, Georgian ,Ossetian it will be virtually impossible to put out. Other world idiots will also help by throwing gasoline on it. It is already the areas tinder box with Azerbaijan ,Armenia ,Turkey as disputing neighbors with long and very recent held war grievances.

How come west supports Georgia's territorial integrity when they found it impossible to support the territorial integrity of Serbia before?

West should send a sharp warning to Georgia to stop this aggression against South Ossetia and just shut up about territorial integrity if they don't support everywhere!

What happen to support for international law and territorial integrity of all UN member countries?
Where is Jeremic , Kostunica, and co. to protest Russia’s military interference in internal matters of another country?
Is Jeremic going to bring the issue to ICJ ?

You Serbs are so lucky that you live so far away from Russia. The Russian orthodox brothers would have done to you whatever they are doing to the orthodox Georgians. And who would have stood up for the Serbian territorial integrity? Athough Georgia doesn't support Kosova's independence I support gerorgian position in this war. The russians ethnically cleansed the georgians and created a "Republica Srpska" in South Osetia and Abkhazia.

PLEASE READ HOW THE SITUATION REALLY IS ABOUT:

South Ossetia has been a part of Russia - and NOT Georgia - until the communist revolution. Then the communists decide to give a small area of S. Ossetia to to the new soviet republic of Georgia in the beggining. Then Stalin completed the job, by giving the whole area to the Soviet Republic of Georgia, just some years later (He was a Georgian after all...).

That means that S. Ossetia was NOT a part of the Geogian state always, actually it was given to Georgia just in 1918, before it was belonging to Russia.

Now Georgia took the privillage to attack the Ossetian capital, by destroyning a big part of it already - killing a lot of innocent ossetian citizens - and it has the audacity to accuse Russia of being "aggresive" at the same time!

The whole point is that, last March - in the NATO summit in Bucharest - Germany and France denied stubbornly to accept Georgia as a NATO member. USA was pressuring hard, but simply they denied.

The reason was, as chancelor Merkel publically anounced later on, that she had "information" that the Georgian authorities want to "USE" NATO in order to sort out political differences they had with Russia.

Just some months later, it is proven how right she was!!!

Georgia wanted desperately to get into NATO because it was planning to attack S. Ossetia already, and wanted the protection of NATO (Georgia thought that Russian military forces would not dare to attack them, if they were NATO members officially, as they did retaliate finallyy).

Or, in other words - they could provocate a Russia-NATO conflict over her matters, by dragging NATO to react, when Russia would retaliate her own aggression! That's how the things really are... and that's why Georgia wanted so badly to join NATO last March. They had palnned this already.

Now is the time for the real Serbian face. Will it support Georgia for its defending its territorial integrity within its international recognized borders, or will it support Russia for its support to the separatists.

good luck russian troops protecting the innocent population of south ossetia, who are also russian citizens. moscow must now also start humanitarian bombing of tbilisi asap in addition to this humanitarian intervention. since with their recognition of kosovo sovereign international borders lost meaning as far as washington and eu are concerned each country must now do as it sees fit when it comes to sovereign international borders. we can only hope that they're responsible with this new power given by washington and eu. we serbs are as always supporting russians and understand that russia is only conducting a humanitarian intervention while remaining fully committed to international order and law. south ossetians must be protected from this aggressive regime in tbilisi that's all.

Why you all wonder about Russia’s reaction. Russia has all rights to defend and protect its citizens where ever they reside and if jeopardized by anyone. With Kosovo example the precedent is set and Russia has warned many times that this is going to happen. EU and the USA however choose to ignore this fact and since precedent is already set Russia has all rights to claim its province back. Serbia will of course stay neutral on the issue, since it is internal issue of the two countries, Russia and Georgia. And of course, no one should judge Serbs for having sympathies for the Slav’s cause. It is just natural that we are emotionally attached to the Slavs, be it Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks…., and again naturally that Russians take first place in our hearts.

Just wonder why Milosevic never used air strikes while our police was in war with KLA. They would be cleansed from the area in 24h.

Where are the strong statements of the Serbian President and government supporting Georgia in defending its territorial integrity?
(robert, 8 August 2008 10:51)

Russia supports Georgia's territorial integrity, so there is no need to fear a secession. However, I guess Russian troops will now invade South Ossetia, for then to present Sjakaasvili with a plan for South Ossetian autonomy. Not an "Ahtisaari plan, but rather something like the proposed Tadic plan."

NATO bombs Serbia and invades Kosovo, Russia bombs Georgia, and invades South Ossetia (and probably Abkhasia). Fair and square. Except that Russians will accept autonomy rather than independence.

On 8 August 2008 10:51, robert asked:

"Where are the strong statements of the Serbian President and government supporting Georgia in defending its territorial integrity?"

I can answer that robert: Nowhere.
--

We read..."At an emergency session of the United Nations, Russia failed to push through a statement that would have called on the two sides to immediately halt all bloodshed.

Council diplomats said a phrase calling on all sides to "renounce the use of force" had been unacceptable to the Georgians, backed by the United States and the Europeans."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4484849.ece

Shame!

Who cares when the innocent die as long as these governments use every means to control the flow of Oil, Oil, Oil!

"Why 20,000 Russians in South Ossetia and 50,000 in Abkhasia cannot live in peace under Georgian rule? Will their culture be endangered?"

And let me ask: Why could not K. Albanians live under Serbian rule, with very extensive autonomy? Would their culture be endangered?

"Thanks to Uncle Sam Europe preserved her freedom"

Thanks to the US we have problems with Islamism, which you created and armed in Afghanistan in the -80's, and we have persistent instability in the Balkans, in the Caucasus, and in the Middle East. Far away from the US, perhaps, but not from Europe. Europeans in general are very, very sick and tired of you, just look how eager we are to "help" you in the mess you created in Afghanistan and Iraq.

"Again and again the same story- the Russian hegemony."

I agree that Russian hegemony would have a perfectly bad influence on most countries. However, so do current US influence. I see no difference between them, except that you guys try to fool the world by calling it "democracy". What a heist - you guys offends us everytime your President opens his mouth.

"Thanks to Uncle Sam Europe preserved her freedom"

This is the idea that makes me fed up with US hypocrisy. Hitler was perfectly fine for the US as long as he bashed the Communists and the Jews. So while the US where fooling around selling Germany oil and supplies through Latin American proxies, profiteering on the war, Europe suffered. Then, finally, after the tide had turned and the Communists crushed Hitler instead of vice versa, Uncle Sam "comes to the rescue", and think he does a favor to us. How imbecile and bigmouthed can you possibly be? Offending your so-called allies with such nonsense? And by the way, how did you "liberate" us? By napalming civilians! Very heroic indeed!

I salute the British for their heroic efforts against the Nazi's. I salute all the offers from resistance forces in Poland, the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Yugoslavia, and the likes. The US contribution in Europe was primarily in the form of finances and materials. We would have shrugged this off without you guys. It disgusts me when Americans wants to come here to be saluted for their efforts. You should feel bad about not being more serious about Hitler earlier and supported the British in 1939. You should feel bad about not taking problems in Europe seriously in the inter-war years, and you should feel bad about the napalm-terror bombing of European cities as Belgrade, Wienna, and Dresden, to mention a few.

And should feel real bad about the double standards you apply on Georgia and Serbia when it comes to secessionists movements.

Why 20,000 Russians in South Ossetia and 50,000 in Abkhasia cannot live in peace under Georgian rule? Will their culture be endangered?

Why 150 million Russia enters in war with 4.4 million Georgia to “protect” less than 100 thousand Russians who no one endangers?

Again and again the same story- the Russian hegemony.

Luigi: step by step and the barbarians will arrive to the gates of Rome- you should now this.

Russia is aggressive because is betting on the reluctance of the west (like you) to confront her- not because it really can afford herself the conflict.

If it was for Europeans like our Luigi the Berlin’s wall would have been build in the middle of the English or La Manche Channel or maybe even the Atlantic.

Thanks to Uncle Sam Europe preserved her freedom Luigi; you should know this and be ready to do something, anything for the freedom of such an old civilization as the Georgian- maybe send 500 euro to the Georgian Red Cross or MoD as I will to the second.

Peter: you amaze me each time. The question that you as Pole should make is this:

‘We Poles fought very hard during the WW2 and contributed significantly for the freedom of Europe, of Luigi. When we needed the help of Europe since Russia was invading us the same Europe (Luigi) turned her back on us. Should it be done the same to Georgians?’

Luigi: sorry to drag you one more time in this but your post is exemplar of opportunism- when I visited Poland I never saw a Grave of the Italian soldiers that have died for the freedom of Poland- and there are many graves of Polish solders in Italy.

However, it is very strange how Slavs have problems with native old civilizations; see Russia with Georgians and Serbia with Albanians.

Regardless of the pragmatic issue here, we have a very old civilization of a very small nation Georgian that is endangered by much larger aggressive neighbor Russia. The demography again is synonym of aggressivity in the Russian contest.

Now that all eyes are on the Olympic Games Russia decided that it is the right time for a Georgia invasion. The Russian Stock Market - already falling for the last few weeks - did not like the idea, dropping close to 7%, the ruble tumbled too.
It will be interesting to see how far Russia dares to go?
After Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1958 can Russia afford Georgia 2008?

What happened to Russia being the great protector of borders and international law? As we speak Russia is in the process of losing their moral high ground on the issue of Kosova...

In 1992, both sides signed a UN brokered cease-fire, guaranteed by the Russians.

2007, Saakashvili breaks the cease-fire for the first time by sending paramilitaries into the Khodori gorge.

2008, Saakasvili does it again. He doesn't have a leg to stand on. He's clearly taken a leaf out of the West and NATO's book that you can ignore any type of international law or agreement as long as you have strong backers. Very democratic!

Serbia supports peacekeepers on the ground and autonomy for Kosovo.

Which is what both Serbia and Russia support for Georgia.

No one is calling for independence for the separatist regions of Georgia, so I see no contradiction in policies.

laki NY and Burim Kelmendi

What you say is true, but let us please agree on one thing: America and Russia are the puppeteers, Serbia, Georgia, Ossetia and Kosovo are the puppets in the puppet show?

ben

Before I continue, I spent a weekend in Vienna some time ago, and saw a section in the Vienna Art museum dedicated to Skenderbeg. In the past I said I never saw any dedication or recognition to Skenderbeg in Western Europe, I was wrong. Please forgive my ignorance!

Regarding the question I should be asking you, however, I just have one difference to point out: Poland was attacked by the Soviet Union in 1939, but the question is, did South Ossetia attack Georgia in 2008? You can't compare the two, Georgia attacked civilians with rockets and aircraft, Poland did not attack Soviet civilians.

Regarding how Slavs treat ancient, native peoples, please tell me how Poland has done anything bad to anyone based on ethnicity? Hungarians are our best friends, we were in a Commonwealth with the Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians, while in our own country today, we have large amounts of Germans living with full minority rights. Why lump all Slavs as one and the same?

Mike

A very good and true composition! 10 / 10 !

bmrusila, Iowe and smile

I agree with you guys 100%, and I am waiting patiently to see how moral NATO will prove to be in this matter if it escalates into total war.

I fully agree that with its agression - that's what Russia did, an agression - against Georgia, Russia has lost its moral ground in giving lessons to others.

Adrian Gashi

"NATO should make a firm stand on the side of its ally Georgia and send in troops to protect the small republic from the Russian aggression, as well as start urgently the procedures for accepting Georgia as a full member. Turkey has nearby a million solders that will be happy to teach Russians a good lesson they will never forget."

Firstly, Georgians started this whole mess by shelling and bombarding innocent civilians and destroying a large part of the city, so who is the aggressor? Secondly, Turkey stands no chance against Russia, and should not be painted as some kind of good guy either, especially considering that they still have not apologized for the genocide of many millions of Armenians, Greeks and Kurds.

this was always the threat that mother russia was making -- and now once again russian tanks are coming to show their conception of "justice."

oh, dear nationalists, what a twisted path you and your "protector" take...

roberto, back in my beloved sarajevo

Adrian Gashi

NATO has said it will remain neutral in this issue and rightfully so. As much as you hate Russia (I don't know for what reason Albanians hate Russians, since Russia has done nothing wrong to them in the past, it must be this blind following of whatever America says that has you thinking this way), they are not the aggressors here, considering that Georgian artillery and aircraft have almost totally destroyed Tshinkvalli, killed 1 600 civilians and driven 30 000 out of South Ossetia to Russia. How can you take Georgia's stand on this matter when they are killing innocent civilians for nothing? NATO should not be taking an aggressive country like Georgia into its organization.

Nato will not do anything..
Georgia is nothing for Nato actually...So where is the problem ? How many wars had been in Caucasus in the last 400 years? how many more will be ?

The WEST had been "biased" on this issue. they recognized the separatists in Pristina but why they are against the aspirations of the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia??

THis is a clear double standard and a clear cheating by the BUSHmen.

Georgia has no match with Russia.

@Adrian Gashi

1)Very comical comment by you.
I don`t want to threaten anybody but:If Turkey or anybody else to confront the Russian army there will be H-bombs raining on Istanbul.

2)We know very well that without the help of NATO Kosovo would be taken by the Serbian army within 12 hours.

3)If Albanians were so brave in deeds like they are in words they would not have fled the Serbian army in 1998 and 99.

The murderer of peacekeepers and thousands of civilians in a population of just 80,000 is truly a crime of immense magnitude. The response must result in maximum retribution against these US lapdogs.

Message to other US lapdogs need not be wasted in the process.

While the forces are cleaning up the rubbish in SO remind them that this is a failed Operation Storm. Mop up what is left of the outside "advisors" first and then add an extra dose of thank you to the entire military infrastructure for this nation spawning the likes of Stalin, Shevardnadze and Sakashvili.

Joe the econometrician has crunched the numbers and has concluded Russia is on its economic knees. Please Joe invest your time and super computer wisely and start learning your Mandarin, quick smart. Haven't you been watching the Beijing Olympics in your defunct, has been nation.

Get to learn the ways and customs of your country's future master.

rolerkoster: You seem to forget Georgia started the aggression, they gambled on the west helping out, Also this dumb soviet bombing was adopted by us in the west, Iraq, Serbia and maybe soon Iran.

Territorial integrity and international law: Again we in the west are guilty of abusing this law, we bombed Serbia and gave away part of its land.

What people have to realise that the US, UK, EU and Russia act in their interests, Kosovo,Serbia, Georgia are all tools for this purpose.

And yes i do live in the west but what a wonderful tool the interent and 24/7 news coverage is, you get to see all parts of the arguement.

Rolerkoster Britain has had many wars for its freedom, we have used war to gain lands, so yes sometimes freedom is brought by the tank or gun.

The Russian response right or wrong has come about with a series of advents

1) Missle defense shield
2) NATO expansion
3) Kosovo independence

At the end of the day Georgia made a huge error and are now being punished for it, the only way NATO may get involved is if the oil stops flowing.

firstly i hope peace comes to Georgia very soon. I think the Georgian leadership has mis judged how the west would respond. NATO will not use force against Russia. Why has this happened? Well 1) the missile defence shield 2) Georgia wanting to join NATO 3) the west recognition of Kosovo.

If our western goverments thought that there would not be a ripple effect to Kosovos independence then they have totally mis read the situation.

Laki you may have a point in what you say but MR Bush has done exactly the same thing with the recognition of Kosovo. The EU and US have shot themselves in the foot, It cant be one rule for one and another rule for another, Georgias breakaway states are also a "special case". The difference though between Kosovo and Georgia is an oil pipe line. As for another comment Turkey is no match to the Russians, only the US can match Russia.

Best solution is talking, i think to begin with Kosovo independence should be reversed by the west.

@Ben
I have already posted many messages about the deal...it's clear that a bargain has been offered to the Russian...you do what you want with Georgia and later Ukraine and we do what we want in the Balkans..seems to me it's working for the moment...
Regarding Polish cemetry..well as you know Polish people are very welcomed in Italy (we remember)and that's all...

"Russia supports Georgia's territorial integrity, so there is no need to fear a secession. However, I guess Russian troops will now invade South Ossetia, for then to present Sjakaasvili with a plan for South Ossetian autonomy."

So, Russia will invade South Ossetia - that up until now has had de facto independence - so it can give it back to Georgia as an autonomous province, when Russia and S Ossetia has been clamoring for independence??? This doesn't make any sense at all.

Russia most likely plans to either invade S Ossetia and keep it, or invade the whole of Georgia. In either case, it flies in the face of Russia portraying itself as the protector of International Law and the sovereignty and territorial integrity of countries, and exposing the Russian hypocrisy for all to see.

NATO should make a firm stand on the side of its ally Georgia and send in troops to protect the small republic from the Russian aggression, as well as start urgently the procedures for accepting Georgia as a full member. Turkey has nearby a million solders that will be happy to teach Russians a good lesson they will never forget. And remember, the newly appointed head of TAF, Ylker Basbug, is an ethnic Albanian that will take full pleasure to humiliate the Ruskies.

I love this, how serbs become the experts of international law and how everything. Serbs are big hipocrypts, they supports territorial integrity, but yet approve others doing it.
For many of you, they want to integrate that georgian region to russia, the last time I checked, Kosova is not joining Albania EVER. Russia advocates for international law but then wants to annex parts of other countries. Kosova was occupied and forcefully taken away from Albania. While these territories were given to Georgia, and the thing is that Russia recognizes this territory as Georgian Territory.
So in short words, russia is doing some stupid things, and it will bite them soon.

Adrian Gashi,

Yes NATO has to make a firm stand against this naked Russian invasion. Otherwise it will lose all credibility and become a paper tiger. Sending Turkish NATO troops to Georgia is an excellent idea.

georgia has me full support in this war.

the west must help georgia!

Joe the self professed econometrician has crunched the numbers and has concluded Russia is on its economic knees. Please Joe invest your time and super computer wisely and start learning Mandarin. Haven't you been watching the Beijing Olympics in your US economically defunct, has-been nation.

Get to learn the ways and customs of your country's future master. Reality and the inevitable will eventually catch up.

There is also a very big difference between a Cossack and a Soviet which some posters will realise in their own lifetime. A history lesson here would be a waste of time.

Kosovo set a example for those who wants to break away. Well as we have seen Russia was not having any of that. Now Georgia is getting it's lunch handed to them and people are losing there lives because of believing NATO will come running to help unfortunately Georgia will suffer because of this belief. Who in there right mind who think Russia will listen to anyone. They won't they have nukes and they have oil.

I guess territorial integrity and international law means nothing to Russia when it comes to their interest.

Now they are off bombing Georgia.

I agree to Peter, comment no.1, VERY stupid and unreasonable move by the georgian president. I´d say he´s responsible for nearly 2000 dead people. very stupid indeed.

according to some smart kids here, now Mr. Tadic should condemn the russian protection of russian citizens? where is the brain of those, who ask the serbian officials for strong words in favor of Georgia´s territorial integrity, when it is just the Georgians who started a violent crackdown on civilian targets? please remember, there was a peace-treaty that guaranteed a peaceful status-quo,which was violated by the quite stupid georgian government.

by the way, my dear albanian friends, doesn´t it sound quite untrustworthy when Mr.Bush is verbally supporting the territorial integrity of Georgia just after having violated this principle of international law in Serbia?

south ossetia was given to Georgia by Stalin, while Kosovo was always serbian throughout history, except ottoman occupation of course.

“ There has been no Western reaction to the advance by Russian troops so far.

President Saakashvili, who is seeking NATO membership for Georgia, has pledged to bring South Ossetia, home to around 80,000 people, along with breakaway Abkhazia, back under central control, and has accused Russia of trying to annex the regions.”

Sadly the question is that Russia this year surpassed Saudi Arabia as the biggest oil producer of the world. And this gives the country a giant power all over the world, mainly Europe, where many of its leaders are reluctant, to say the least, to offer anything to countries that were part of the Soviet Union before 1940 — like Georgia and Ukraine.

“ Now is the time for the real Serbian face. Will it support Georgia for its defending its territorial integrity within its international recognized borders, or will it support Russia for its support to the separatists.”

Certainly, the Serbian nationalists will support the separatists inside Georgia… and Moldova, too.

Best solution is talking, i think to begin with Kosovo independence should be reversed by the west. (Dave B (UK), 9 August 2008 17:36)

with this dumb soviet-strategy Russia bombs Georgia into the NATO. after it's blamable support for Yugoslavia, Russia has lost it's face in Serbia.

I guess you already live to far in West to understand the children of your ancestors. they don't think, that freedom is a result, which is brought by tanks.

Anyway, a good article about the Georgian-Russian conflict over South Ossetia can be found here: (http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373298)

Where are the strong statements of the Serbian President and government supporting Georgia in defending its territorial integrity?

this was always the threat that mother russia was making -- and now once again russian tanks are coming to show their conception of "justice."

oh, dear nationalists, what a twisted path you and your "protector" take...

roberto, back in my beloved sarajevo

I love this, how serbs become the experts of international law and how everything. Serbs are big hipocrypts, they supports territorial integrity, but yet approve others doing it.
For many of you, they want to integrate that georgian region to russia, the last time I checked, Kosova is not joining Albania EVER. Russia advocates for international law but then wants to annex parts of other countries. Kosova was occupied and forcefully taken away from Albania. While these territories were given to Georgia, and the thing is that Russia recognizes this territory as Georgian Territory.
So in short words, russia is doing some stupid things, and it will bite them soon.

I fully agree that with its agression - that's what Russia did, an agression - against Georgia, Russia has lost its moral ground in giving lessons to others.

You Serbs are so lucky that you live so far away from Russia. The Russian orthodox brothers would have done to you whatever they are doing to the orthodox Georgians. And who would have stood up for the Serbian territorial integrity? Athough Georgia doesn't support Kosova's independence I support gerorgian position in this war. The russians ethnically cleansed the georgians and created a "Republica Srpska" in South Osetia and Abkhazia.

What happen to support for international law and territorial integrity of all UN member countries?
Where is Jeremic , Kostunica, and co. to protest Russia’s military interference in internal matters of another country?
Is Jeremic going to bring the issue to ICJ ?

Now that all eyes are on the Olympic Games Russia decided that it is the right time for a Georgia invasion. The Russian Stock Market - already falling for the last few weeks - did not like the idea, dropping close to 7%, the ruble tumbled too.
It will be interesting to see how far Russia dares to go?
After Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1958 can Russia afford Georgia 2008?

What happened to Russia being the great protector of borders and international law? As we speak Russia is in the process of losing their moral high ground on the issue of Kosova...

Why 20,000 Russians in South Ossetia and 50,000 in Abkhasia cannot live in peace under Georgian rule? Will their culture be endangered?

Why 150 million Russia enters in war with 4.4 million Georgia to “protect” less than 100 thousand Russians who no one endangers?

Again and again the same story- the Russian hegemony.

Luigi: step by step and the barbarians will arrive to the gates of Rome- you should now this.

Russia is aggressive because is betting on the reluctance of the west (like you) to confront her- not because it really can afford herself the conflict.

If it was for Europeans like our Luigi the Berlin’s wall would have been build in the middle of the English or La Manche Channel or maybe even the Atlantic.

Thanks to Uncle Sam Europe preserved her freedom Luigi; you should know this and be ready to do something, anything for the freedom of such an old civilization as the Georgian- maybe send 500 euro to the Georgian Red Cross or MoD as I will to the second.

Peter: you amaze me each time. The question that you as Pole should make is this:

‘We Poles fought very hard during the WW2 and contributed significantly for the freedom of Europe, of Luigi. When we needed the help of Europe since Russia was invading us the same Europe (Luigi) turned her back on us. Should it be done the same to Georgians?’

Luigi: sorry to drag you one more time in this but your post is exemplar of opportunism- when I visited Poland I never saw a Grave of the Italian soldiers that have died for the freedom of Poland- and there are many graves of Polish solders in Italy.

However, it is very strange how Slavs have problems with native old civilizations; see Russia with Georgians and Serbia with Albanians.

Regardless of the pragmatic issue here, we have a very old civilization of a very small nation Georgian that is endangered by much larger aggressive neighbor Russia. The demography again is synonym of aggressivity in the Russian contest.

Now is the time for the real Serbian face. Will it support Georgia for its defending its territorial integrity within its international recognized borders, or will it support Russia for its support to the separatists.

On 8 August 2008 10:51, robert asked:

"Where are the strong statements of the Serbian President and government supporting Georgia in defending its territorial integrity?"

I can answer that robert: Nowhere.
--

Albanians et al,

And where is America and Kosovo Albanians urging Russian independence?
Come on, support Russian minority for their independence...

Oh thats right...

Russia and Serbia had relations for hundreds and hundreds of years.
And no amount of drug/organ/human trafficking money could buy Albanians that relationship with any other country or nation.

America will sell you out, just like they sold out Saddam, just like they sold out Taliban and everyone else they ever employed while they needed them.
You share nothing with America - not common ground, not history, not religion. You are a tool for Americas obsession with Russia, the Middle East and oil. Get a grip.

Serbs and Russians traditionally had friendly relations for hundreds of years, as it will continue to do have them for hundreds more to come.

No amount of sneering and bitter comments can change that.

This conflict was just a matter of time, considering Saakashvili's unhealthy obsession with NATO and diktat.

georgia has me full support in this war.

the west must help georgia!

Very bad move by Georgia.

Not only have they engaged in warfare with civilians using heavy weaponry, but they are endangering NATO-Russian relations due to the fact that Georgia thinks that NATO is their new best friend and that they will support them if Russia intervenes on the side of the South Ossetians.

Very disappointing. Imagine now if Serbia threw its armies with heavy weaponry into Kosovo trying to claim it back. Actually, it would be interesting to see how NATO reacts to this issue.

Well, well, seems that new war has just started. Since Georgia decided to use excessive force I expect Russia will react in absolutely same manner.

Where are the strong statements of the Serbian President and government supporting Georgia in defending its territorial integrity?
(robert, 8 August 2008 10:51)

Russia supports Georgia's territorial integrity, so there is no need to fear a secession. However, I guess Russian troops will now invade South Ossetia, for then to present Sjakaasvili with a plan for South Ossetian autonomy. Not an "Ahtisaari plan, but rather something like the proposed Tadic plan."

NATO bombs Serbia and invades Kosovo, Russia bombs Georgia, and invades South Ossetia (and probably Abkhasia). Fair and square. Except that Russians will accept autonomy rather than independence.

Why you all wonder about Russia’s reaction. Russia has all rights to defend and protect its citizens where ever they reside and if jeopardized by anyone. With Kosovo example the precedent is set and Russia has warned many times that this is going to happen. EU and the USA however choose to ignore this fact and since precedent is already set Russia has all rights to claim its province back. Serbia will of course stay neutral on the issue, since it is internal issue of the two countries, Russia and Georgia. And of course, no one should judge Serbs for having sympathies for the Slav’s cause. It is just natural that we are emotionally attached to the Slavs, be it Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks…., and again naturally that Russians take first place in our hearts.

Just wonder why Milosevic never used air strikes while our police was in war with KLA. They would be cleansed from the area in 24h.

"Russia supports Georgia's territorial integrity, so there is no need to fear a secession. However, I guess Russian troops will now invade South Ossetia, for then to present Sjakaasvili with a plan for South Ossetian autonomy."

So, Russia will invade South Ossetia - that up until now has had de facto independence - so it can give it back to Georgia as an autonomous province, when Russia and S Ossetia has been clamoring for independence??? This doesn't make any sense at all.

Russia most likely plans to either invade S Ossetia and keep it, or invade the whole of Georgia. In either case, it flies in the face of Russia portraying itself as the protector of International Law and the sovereignty and territorial integrity of countries, and exposing the Russian hypocrisy for all to see.

NATO should make a firm stand on the side of its ally Georgia and send in troops to protect the small republic from the Russian aggression, as well as start urgently the procedures for accepting Georgia as a full member. Turkey has nearby a million solders that will be happy to teach Russians a good lesson they will never forget. And remember, the newly appointed head of TAF, Ylker Basbug, is an ethnic Albanian that will take full pleasure to humiliate the Ruskies.

Anyway, a good article about the Georgian-Russian conflict over South Ossetia can be found here: (http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373298)

Adrian Gashi,

Yes NATO has to make a firm stand against this naked Russian invasion. Otherwise it will lose all credibility and become a paper tiger. Sending Turkish NATO troops to Georgia is an excellent idea.

@Adrian Gashi

1)Very comical comment by you.
I don`t want to threaten anybody but:If Turkey or anybody else to confront the Russian army there will be H-bombs raining on Istanbul.

2)We know very well that without the help of NATO Kosovo would be taken by the Serbian army within 12 hours.

3)If Albanians were so brave in deeds like they are in words they would not have fled the Serbian army in 1998 and 99.

The WEST had been "biased" on this issue. they recognized the separatists in Pristina but why they are against the aspirations of the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia??

THis is a clear double standard and a clear cheating by the BUSHmen.

Georgia has no match with Russia.

The murderer of peacekeepers and thousands of civilians in a population of just 80,000 is truly a crime of immense magnitude. The response must result in maximum retribution against these US lapdogs.

Message to other US lapdogs need not be wasted in the process.

While the forces are cleaning up the rubbish in SO remind them that this is a failed Operation Storm. Mop up what is left of the outside "advisors" first and then add an extra dose of thank you to the entire military infrastructure for this nation spawning the likes of Stalin, Shevardnadze and Sakashvili.

Joe the econometrician has crunched the numbers and has concluded Russia is on its economic knees. Please Joe invest your time and super computer wisely and start learning your Mandarin, quick smart. Haven't you been watching the Beijing Olympics in your defunct, has been nation.

Get to learn the ways and customs of your country's future master.

Adrian Gashi

NATO has said it will remain neutral in this issue and rightfully so. As much as you hate Russia (I don't know for what reason Albanians hate Russians, since Russia has done nothing wrong to them in the past, it must be this blind following of whatever America says that has you thinking this way), they are not the aggressors here, considering that Georgian artillery and aircraft have almost totally destroyed Tshinkvalli, killed 1 600 civilians and driven 30 000 out of South Ossetia to Russia. How can you take Georgia's stand on this matter when they are killing innocent civilians for nothing? NATO should not be taking an aggressive country like Georgia into its organization.

Nato will not do anything..
Georgia is nothing for Nato actually...So where is the problem ? How many wars had been in Caucasus in the last 400 years? how many more will be ?

How come west supports Georgia's territorial integrity when they found it impossible to support the territorial integrity of Serbia before?

West should send a sharp warning to Georgia to stop this aggression against South Ossetia and just shut up about territorial integrity if they don't support everywhere!

Independence for me
Independence for you
If you break international law,
It'll break it too.

In the days of old
When men were bold
And diplomacy wasn't invented
They took their might
And started a fight
And went on quite contented.

And the moral of the story...

Monkey see,
Monkey do.
If it's good enough for Kosovo
It's good enough for you.

@Ben
I have already posted many messages about the deal...it's clear that a bargain has been offered to the Russian...you do what you want with Georgia and later Ukraine and we do what we want in the Balkans..seems to me it's working for the moment...
Regarding Polish cemetry..well as you know Polish people are very welcomed in Italy (we remember)and that's all...

Sheer irony ..... Russian tanks go into Ossetia to "protect" Ossetians against Georgian brutality ..... just like Nato went into Kosovo to "protect" K-Albanians against Milosevic ..... and they say Kosovo will never be a precedent! what tosh!

And it is the West now who must utter the mantra about respect for the borders of all countries!

"Why 20,000 Russians in South Ossetia and 50,000 in Abkhasia cannot live in peace under Georgian rule? Will their culture be endangered?"

And let me ask: Why could not K. Albanians live under Serbian rule, with very extensive autonomy? Would their culture be endangered?

"Thanks to Uncle Sam Europe preserved her freedom"

Thanks to the US we have problems with Islamism, which you created and armed in Afghanistan in the -80's, and we have persistent instability in the Balkans, in the Caucasus, and in the Middle East. Far away from the US, perhaps, but not from Europe. Europeans in general are very, very sick and tired of you, just look how eager we are to "help" you in the mess you created in Afghanistan and Iraq.

"Again and again the same story- the Russian hegemony."

I agree that Russian hegemony would have a perfectly bad influence on most countries. However, so do current US influence. I see no difference between them, except that you guys try to fool the world by calling it "democracy". What a heist - you guys offends us everytime your President opens his mouth.

"Thanks to Uncle Sam Europe preserved her freedom"

This is the idea that makes me fed up with US hypocrisy. Hitler was perfectly fine for the US as long as he bashed the Communists and the Jews. So while the US where fooling around selling Germany oil and supplies through Latin American proxies, profiteering on the war, Europe suffered. Then, finally, after the tide had turned and the Communists crushed Hitler instead of vice versa, Uncle Sam "comes to the rescue", and think he does a favor to us. How imbecile and bigmouthed can you possibly be? Offending your so-called allies with such nonsense? And by the way, how did you "liberate" us? By napalming civilians! Very heroic indeed!

I salute the British for their heroic efforts against the Nazi's. I salute all the offers from resistance forces in Poland, the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Yugoslavia, and the likes. The US contribution in Europe was primarily in the form of finances and materials. We would have shrugged this off without you guys. It disgusts me when Americans wants to come here to be saluted for their efforts. You should feel bad about not being more serious about Hitler earlier and supported the British in 1939. You should feel bad about not taking problems in Europe seriously in the inter-war years, and you should feel bad about the napalm-terror bombing of European cities as Belgrade, Wienna, and Dresden, to mention a few.

And should feel real bad about the double standards you apply on Georgia and Serbia when it comes to secessionists movements.

PLEASE READ HOW THE SITUATION REALLY IS ABOUT:

South Ossetia has been a part of Russia - and NOT Georgia - until the communist revolution. Then the communists decide to give a small area of S. Ossetia to to the new soviet republic of Georgia in the beggining. Then Stalin completed the job, by giving the whole area to the Soviet Republic of Georgia, just some years later (He was a Georgian after all...).

That means that S. Ossetia was NOT a part of the Geogian state always, actually it was given to Georgia just in 1918, before it was belonging to Russia.

Now Georgia took the privillage to attack the Ossetian capital, by destroyning a big part of it already - killing a lot of innocent ossetian citizens - and it has the audacity to accuse Russia of being "aggresive" at the same time!

The whole point is that, last March - in the NATO summit in Bucharest - Germany and France denied stubbornly to accept Georgia as a NATO member. USA was pressuring hard, but simply they denied.

The reason was, as chancelor Merkel publically anounced later on, that she had "information" that the Georgian authorities want to "USE" NATO in order to sort out political differences they had with Russia.

Just some months later, it is proven how right she was!!!

Georgia wanted desperately to get into NATO because it was planning to attack S. Ossetia already, and wanted the protection of NATO (Georgia thought that Russian military forces would not dare to attack them, if they were NATO members officially, as they did retaliate finallyy).

Or, in other words - they could provocate a Russia-NATO conflict over her matters, by dragging NATO to react, when Russia would retaliate her own aggression! That's how the things really are... and that's why Georgia wanted so badly to join NATO last March. They had palnned this already.

Adrian Gashi

"NATO should make a firm stand on the side of its ally Georgia and send in troops to protect the small republic from the Russian aggression, as well as start urgently the procedures for accepting Georgia as a full member. Turkey has nearby a million solders that will be happy to teach Russians a good lesson they will never forget."

Firstly, Georgians started this whole mess by shelling and bombarding innocent civilians and destroying a large part of the city, so who is the aggressor? Secondly, Turkey stands no chance against Russia, and should not be painted as some kind of good guy either, especially considering that they still have not apologized for the genocide of many millions of Armenians, Greeks and Kurds.

firstly i hope peace comes to Georgia very soon. I think the Georgian leadership has mis judged how the west would respond. NATO will not use force against Russia. Why has this happened? Well 1) the missile defence shield 2) Georgia wanting to join NATO 3) the west recognition of Kosovo.

If our western goverments thought that there would not be a ripple effect to Kosovos independence then they have totally mis read the situation.

Laki you may have a point in what you say but MR Bush has done exactly the same thing with the recognition of Kosovo. The EU and US have shot themselves in the foot, It cant be one rule for one and another rule for another, Georgias breakaway states are also a "special case". The difference though between Kosovo and Georgia is an oil pipe line. As for another comment Turkey is no match to the Russians, only the US can match Russia.

Best solution is talking, i think to begin with Kosovo independence should be reversed by the west.

Best solution is talking, i think to begin with Kosovo independence should be reversed by the west. (Dave B (UK), 9 August 2008 17:36)

with this dumb soviet-strategy Russia bombs Georgia into the NATO. after it's blamable support for Yugoslavia, Russia has lost it's face in Serbia.

I guess you already live to far in West to understand the children of your ancestors. they don't think, that freedom is a result, which is brought by tanks.

We read..."At an emergency session of the United Nations, Russia failed to push through a statement that would have called on the two sides to immediately halt all bloodshed.

Council diplomats said a phrase calling on all sides to "renounce the use of force" had been unacceptable to the Georgians, backed by the United States and the Europeans."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4484849.ece

Shame!

Who cares when the innocent die as long as these governments use every means to control the flow of Oil, Oil, Oil!

good luck russian troops protecting the innocent population of south ossetia, who are also russian citizens. moscow must now also start humanitarian bombing of tbilisi asap in addition to this humanitarian intervention. since with their recognition of kosovo sovereign international borders lost meaning as far as washington and eu are concerned each country must now do as it sees fit when it comes to sovereign international borders. we can only hope that they're responsible with this new power given by washington and eu. we serbs are as always supporting russians and understand that russia is only conducting a humanitarian intervention while remaining fully committed to international order and law. south ossetians must be protected from this aggressive regime in tbilisi that's all.

Once you play with fire it is very easy for it to spiral out of control on the simpletons Russian, Georgian ,Ossetian it will be virtually impossible to put out. Other world idiots will also help by throwing gasoline on it. It is already the areas tinder box with Azerbaijan ,Armenia ,Turkey as disputing neighbors with long and very recent held war grievances.

laki NY and Burim Kelmendi

What you say is true, but let us please agree on one thing: America and Russia are the puppeteers, Serbia, Georgia, Ossetia and Kosovo are the puppets in the puppet show?

ben

Before I continue, I spent a weekend in Vienna some time ago, and saw a section in the Vienna Art museum dedicated to Skenderbeg. In the past I said I never saw any dedication or recognition to Skenderbeg in Western Europe, I was wrong. Please forgive my ignorance!

Regarding the question I should be asking you, however, I just have one difference to point out: Poland was attacked by the Soviet Union in 1939, but the question is, did South Ossetia attack Georgia in 2008? You can't compare the two, Georgia attacked civilians with rockets and aircraft, Poland did not attack Soviet civilians.

Regarding how Slavs treat ancient, native peoples, please tell me how Poland has done anything bad to anyone based on ethnicity? Hungarians are our best friends, we were in a Commonwealth with the Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians, while in our own country today, we have large amounts of Germans living with full minority rights. Why lump all Slavs as one and the same?

Mike

A very good and true composition! 10 / 10 !

bmrusila, Iowe and smile

I agree with you guys 100%, and I am waiting patiently to see how moral NATO will prove to be in this matter if it escalates into total war.

In 1992, both sides signed a UN brokered cease-fire, guaranteed by the Russians.

2007, Saakashvili breaks the cease-fire for the first time by sending paramilitaries into the Khodori gorge.

2008, Saakasvili does it again. He doesn't have a leg to stand on. He's clearly taken a leaf out of the West and NATO's book that you can ignore any type of international law or agreement as long as you have strong backers. Very democratic!

“ There has been no Western reaction to the advance by Russian troops so far.

President Saakashvili, who is seeking NATO membership for Georgia, has pledged to bring South Ossetia, home to around 80,000 people, along with breakaway Abkhazia, back under central control, and has accused Russia of trying to annex the regions.”

Sadly the question is that Russia this year surpassed Saudi Arabia as the biggest oil producer of the world. And this gives the country a giant power all over the world, mainly Europe, where many of its leaders are reluctant, to say the least, to offer anything to countries that were part of the Soviet Union before 1940 — like Georgia and Ukraine.

“ Now is the time for the real Serbian face. Will it support Georgia for its defending its territorial integrity within its international recognized borders, or will it support Russia for its support to the separatists.”

Certainly, the Serbian nationalists will support the separatists inside Georgia… and Moldova, too.

Serbia supports peacekeepers on the ground and autonomy for Kosovo.

Which is what both Serbia and Russia support for Georgia.

No one is calling for independence for the separatist regions of Georgia, so I see no contradiction in policies.

Joe the self professed econometrician has crunched the numbers and has concluded Russia is on its economic knees. Please Joe invest your time and super computer wisely and start learning Mandarin. Haven't you been watching the Beijing Olympics in your US economically defunct, has-been nation.

Get to learn the ways and customs of your country's future master. Reality and the inevitable will eventually catch up.

There is also a very big difference between a Cossack and a Soviet which some posters will realise in their own lifetime. A history lesson here would be a waste of time.

I guess territorial integrity and international law means nothing to Russia when it comes to their interest.

Now they are off bombing Georgia.

Kosovo set a example for those who wants to break away. Well as we have seen Russia was not having any of that. Now Georgia is getting it's lunch handed to them and people are losing there lives because of believing NATO will come running to help unfortunately Georgia will suffer because of this belief. Who in there right mind who think Russia will listen to anyone. They won't they have nukes and they have oil.

rolerkoster: You seem to forget Georgia started the aggression, they gambled on the west helping out, Also this dumb soviet bombing was adopted by us in the west, Iraq, Serbia and maybe soon Iran.

Territorial integrity and international law: Again we in the west are guilty of abusing this law, we bombed Serbia and gave away part of its land.

What people have to realise that the US, UK, EU and Russia act in their interests, Kosovo,Serbia, Georgia are all tools for this purpose.

And yes i do live in the west but what a wonderful tool the interent and 24/7 news coverage is, you get to see all parts of the arguement.

Rolerkoster Britain has had many wars for its freedom, we have used war to gain lands, so yes sometimes freedom is brought by the tank or gun.

The Russian response right or wrong has come about with a series of advents

1) Missle defense shield
2) NATO expansion
3) Kosovo independence

At the end of the day Georgia made a huge error and are now being punished for it, the only way NATO may get involved is if the oil stops flowing.

I agree to Peter, comment no.1, VERY stupid and unreasonable move by the georgian president. I´d say he´s responsible for nearly 2000 dead people. very stupid indeed.

according to some smart kids here, now Mr. Tadic should condemn the russian protection of russian citizens? where is the brain of those, who ask the serbian officials for strong words in favor of Georgia´s territorial integrity, when it is just the Georgians who started a violent crackdown on civilian targets? please remember, there was a peace-treaty that guaranteed a peaceful status-quo,which was violated by the quite stupid georgian government.

by the way, my dear albanian friends, doesn´t it sound quite untrustworthy when Mr.Bush is verbally supporting the territorial integrity of Georgia just after having violated this principle of international law in Serbia?

south ossetia was given to Georgia by Stalin, while Kosovo was always serbian throughout history, except ottoman occupation of course.