37

Tuesday, 05.08.2008.

11:56

Serbia to press on with ICJ plan

Despite criticism from EU countries, Serbia insists on seeking the ICJ’s view on Kosovo’s independence.

Izvor: Martin Meredith

Serbia to press on with ICJ plan IMAGE SOURCE
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37 Komentari

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Amer

pre 15 godina

Hi Peter of Sydney - it's going to be an interesting session at the UN, isn't it. I think that certain countries that have not worried about offending the US in the past may suddenly discover they are under pressure they didn't experience before, Egypt specifically. Egypt may be stubborn about, say, how it treats its domestic opposition, despite US cavils, but that is a matter of what their government views as its survival. Unlike in the case of Serbia's motion, where there is no national interest at stake (except for large amounts of foreign aid).

Abstention provides an easy way out, and for the Kosovo position it will work as well as a "no."

A lot depends here (as with other aid recipients) on how serious Russia is - are they willing to replace US funding? Could be, but their support for Serbia has been pretty tepid so far. They will "support whatever Serbia wants" - they aren't leading the charge here. For example, in a B92 interview a couple of months ago Rada Trajković said that the Russian and Chinese ambassadors were privately advising the Kosovar Serbs to deal with Prishtina. Sounds like they'd be just as happy to have the whole problem just go away.

This vote is not going to offer countries with restive minorities the option of squashing the precedent of Kosovo immediately. Their options are to leave the matter of the legality UID open (by abstaining or voting "no") or to vote to let the court actually decide the case and provide the "recognition blueprint" you mentioned. It's a bigger gamble to let it go to court and either lose big (Kosovo is ok) or lose small (Kosovo is not ok - here's how they should have done it, and how the Basques and the Kurds and the Chechens and ... should do it in the future). Better for them to abstain and leave everything up in the air and argue at home that "Kosovo was a special case."

The US State Department certainly bungled their response to the Kosovo declaration of independence - they should have insured they had enough votes to recognize it in advance and made plans to coordinate with Prishtina. Rice let the ball drop and what should have been a routine matter has escalated beyond all reason. But the US - and Geo. W. Bush in particular - does not like to lose, so I think they may be willing to put some effort into straightening this out at the last minute. If not, I'm wrong, and everything will take longer. But the Albanians of Kosovo have been living in the area for 3000+ years, they've seen the Greek, the Roman, the Byzantine, the (rather shorter-lived) Serb, and the Turkish empires come and then go. They can afford to wait. As for the US, it will soon have a new administration.

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peter, sydney

pre 15 godina

Amer:
Have already stated that getting the UN GA to ask for an advisory opinion from the ICJ will be the real challenge here, but am not quite so pessimistic about Serbia's chances in this as you.

Do not think that non-aligned countries such as Egypt will be overly worried about 'offending' the US & those countries in the western bloc that have supported K-albanian UDI - Egypt for instance didn't seem to be too worried about this 'threat' at the OIC when it opposed recognition.

And 'Kosovo' isn't that important an issue to the US et al to waste that much political capital on.

And we are also just talking about asking individual countries to vote to pass on the issue of legality to the ICJ, & not to vote on the issue itself - which makes it next to impossible to formally base any opposition to this on such with organisations such as the IMF.

With regard to countries with their own separatist issues, I would've thought that the opportunity to have the ICJ squash any idea of a 'Kosovo precedent' being set in the first place, would be of far more value to them than any worry that a negative ruling would establish some sort of a 'recognition blueprint'.


Still, Serbia needs 96 votes, which is not a given - even if 149 have not recognised 'pseudo-state', does not mean they are specifically against it. Is still plenty of work to do.

Keep building up those 'frequent-flyer miles' Vuk.

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Hand Of Moscow

pre 15 godina

Dear Dragan !

The situation is much better than many Serbs estimate it now. You have to solve your internal problem of national unity and get rid of the imposed illusions over equal membership within the happy united family of European nations. All the rest we can improve together. Worst of all is that there are elements of hypocrisy of the de facto governmet of Serbia. In fact they refused from the main striking force Serbia could obtain. I mean Russia. They support the existing level of relations only because of internal Serbian reasons cause otherwise they would loose the power. Let's hope that very soon Serbs will enjoy a more patriotic ruling elites. Lets hope that in the near future our enemies will again count us together as it has been through the centuries.

Bad news is that very likely Russia will soon be ingaged to the war in Georgia. The American puppet there has got such such instructions from his Washington headquaters. Ossetians twice has defeated the Georgians and they are ready to do it as many times as required but I am afraid the Georgians will attack our peacemakers deployed in the region ... All this is done with one aim to tie our hands for active politics in many regions of the world including Balkans. One should say that the plan is good enough. But we shall live and see. Very soon the US may have too many internal problems to conduct same agressive international politics.


Olf

"ICTY is put on place to stop the crimes and bring to justice those responsible for them ..."

Either you are a prisoner of your own imagination or you wish to hear only what you would like to hear ! This Tribunal is utmost criminal from the very begining ! It has been established to hide the crimes of the winners and nothing else. The first (Italian) head of the Tribunal once said that they prosecute only 1 % of the military criminals ! It only means that the Tribunal follows political purposes and nothing else.

" With this you are denying identity of the entire nations ..."

What about Albanians ? They too belong to Orthodox , Catholic Churches and most of them are a kind of Muslims. But it doesn't mean that they stopped to be Albanians. Same with Georgians who have 10% of muslims. Many nations in the world are divided by the religions. So what ? I personally don't care how some Serbs prefer to be called. What I really care is that they should not kill each other under outside pressure. And I am happy that my country have enough force and political will to improve the crimes committed by the international society against our Orthodox brothers. So the fake Tribunal has got not a single chance to live through the year of 2010. That year it's gonna Reast In Peace (RIP) ...

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Amer

pre 15 godina

Serbia's first challenge will be to convince the members of the General Assembly to support its request. No matter how polite the diplomats Mr. Jeremic has been talking to have been to him, their UN representative is going to have to consider what their country's vote might cost it.

Egypt, for example, receives more aid from the US than any country except Israel. Are they going to risk even a fraction of this by going against US wishes? And how many countries apply for aid from the World Bank and support from the IMF? The countries they would be voting against - the US and the European powers - have enough weight there to make such countries' lives very complicated in the future.

Also, countries with minorities seeking independence, like Spain and China and many African nations, will have to decide: do they really want a court ruling specifying the rules of the game for granting a break-away unit independence? This would undoubtedly be contained in the ruling of the ICJ, however they rule in the case of Kosova. The sheer uncertainty of the outcome of a struggle for liberation is now a major argument against even attempting it. Imagine how heartened the Basques and Tibetans will be to learn they need only achieve a limited number of objectives before obtaining legally defined independence. The last thing a country with restive minorities should want is a clearly defined pathway to independence for them.

Countries in either category that don't want to be seen as voting against the "simple" matter of asking for an advisory opinion can merely abstain and explain this to Serbia as being a sign of silent support for Serbia in their individual case but as also being necessary in their own national interests. And then Serbia can start concentrating on the path to EU membership.

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Wim Roffel

pre 15 godina

The ICJ has been a bit unclear about how it sees the status of Serbia. When Serbia sought a condemnation of the Kosovo war this was rejected because Yugoslavia was not considered a member of the UN. Yet when it came to the Bosnia genocide case the court did consider Yugoslavia a kind of member. I suppose the question by the UN is meant to circumvent this problem.

http://www.law.leidenuniv.nl/general/img/6[1][1].%20Lennert%20Breuker.%20Genocide%20Case_tcm11-37132.pdf

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The Swiss

pre 15 godina

Serbia’s initiative has come in for harsh criticism from the UK and France, who accuse the Belgrade authorities of provoking the EU, and that it might jeopardize Serbia’s further EU integration.

Interesting.....UK giving lessons after having completely missleaded the people on WOM in Irak, with the result we know today...and France being currently accused of having actively participated in the Rwanda genocide by training and off loading weapons to the rebels...

This apart, I simply can't believe that some "so called" politicians have the courage to so openely threaten a sovereign country, whichever it is, just because that particular country wants to address a clear legal issue to the ICJ.
What is happening today in Europe is simply a shame and frankly I do not know how such an Europe will be able to survive and at which cost to the tax payers!
I join your comment Mike, USA is already not that much interested anymore in Kosovo,
but it became now a burning issued in Europe!
Europe really needed this.....

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peter, sydney

pre 15 godina

shqarthi:
> The ICJ will probably say they have no jurisdiction

This is a case that is squarely in the ICJ's balliwick, & jurisdiction doesn't apply as it is the UN GA that will be asking for the advisory opinion if Serbia is successful in its lobbying efforts.

And repeating what I have said earlier, & what is said above, while an advisory opinion in Serbia's favour is not binding, it will have quite a lot of weight when it comes to any future recognitions from currently non-committed countries.

Has to do with political protocols - every country wants to be taken seriously & flying in the face of an 'advisory opinion' that says otherwise is a serious factor against recognition.

As for your ideas about 'Kosovo' seeking an 'advisory opinion' from the ICJ, dream on. Such a case would not be pursued as an 'advisory opinion', 'Kosovo isn't a country & here jurisdictional issues most certainly do apply.

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Olf

pre 15 godina

Hand of Moscow

ICTY is put on place to stop the crimes and bring to justice those responsible for them. We have to be honest and accept that crimes were not stopped completely but partially and war criminals are tried according to modern practices. You say that the war was between 4 types of Serbs to which I must add that you have gone to far on this one. With this you are denying identity of the entire nations what is not healthy in any case for you.
Mate, hero are not called people that kill 100ths of unarmed civilians, those are called cowards.

Nikola

First of all I am not an Albanian national.
I think that Serbia has the support of Russia and without that support Serbia would not make much noise.
I also understand you when you say that you have not support form BRIC but that is only your wish. In today world nothing functions on its own/ without the support of someone or without a coalition so please be realistic. Wishes are wishes while reality is something else, Serbia is not a superpower but a little nothing that is getting smaller.

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Nexh

pre 15 godina

"The ICJ’s final decision will not be binding, but if Serbia’s arguments are adopted, it could slow down or block recognition of Kosovo as an independent state"

This explains everything, if Serbia decide to go with such a plan then we all know the outcome, it will NOT be binding, and most important is the work "IF".
Another point I would like to make here is that Albanians in Kosovo will never accept to be part of Serbia. Not in this lifetime. Now we are asking ourselves, who is making troubles in the region? I don't think Albanians from Kosovo are doing it. Serbian government is doing such a thing. I just wished that they would understand it once and for all that Kosovo is not part of Serbia anymore. Kosovo is now part of Kosovo for good.
Peace in the Balkans.

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ChicagoMichael

pre 15 godina

Nikola, let me address my comment in response to your recent communication. As an American of Serb ethnicity, who came to Chicago as a small child but who has been to beautiful Serbia many times, I would ask you and all Serbs to consider very carefully whether it is a good idea to join the "club" called the EU. Serbs must be fully informed as to what degree of sovereignty and decision-making you are willing to give up to Brussels. Some of the control and power that now resides with the Serbian people through Belgrade will be lost to Brussels. Do the Serbs know what governmental powers you are surrendering, or is Serbia just intoxicated with the idea of joining the West and ANY price? From where I am sitting, the West treats Serbia like a primitive stepson. Before Serbia surrenders a degree of its sovereignty, you should be fully aware what that degree is and whether you are willing to do it. You are assuming that Serbia will be able to maintain and develop relationships with the BRIC nations without Brussels' interference. Do you really know how easy or difficult it is to leave the EU if you don't like it? "Before you jump into a swimming pool, make sure you know exactly how much water is in the pool first, then decide whether to jump in". God Bless Serbia!

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Dragan

pre 15 godina

Hand of Moscow,
Thanks for your support and I'm very glad that there are Russians out there like you who know exactly what is going on. Without the help of Russia, Kosovo would already be independent and severed from Serbia. Serbs should realize this. We owe our friends and brothers aa great deal. I believe Russia will be the first country to recognize Republika Srpska, and I look forward to this.
We Serbs (true Serbs) are embarrassed by Tadic. He is not working for Serbia, but for the colonialists, and as the evidence shows, he is doing absolutely everything they tell him. Please don't believe that Serbs agree with his policies, because we don't. The election was stolen due to corrupt politicians in the SPS going against their voters and being bought for cheap.
This will not last and I hope that a resurgent Russia will work hand in hand with a resurgent Serbia. Russians are our true friends, not the EU and not the Americans. Actions speak louder than words. Tadic and his gang have not learned this, and that is why they will be out soon.
Cheers!!

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Delije

pre 15 godina

To Robin Owens, why in hell would Serbia renounce Vojvodina? It's population is about 70%-75% Serbian. Majority rules right? I think Vojvodina is happy right where it is in Serbia. Surrender Mladic, I think we have enough Serbs in the Hague for now.

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Alban of Peja

pre 15 godina

Sqarthi my Albanian Brother,

I think you are correct in concluding that the ICG will decide it does not have jurisdiction on deciding it can offer an opinion on Kosova's Independence.

However, another possibility is that Tadic suspects that the majority of UN members will vote against Serbia going before the ICJ. This way Tadic and new pro-European gov't are off the hook and can justly proclaim that they have tried all options but failed in getting back Kosova. This will eventually lead to Serbia recognizing Kosova so that Serbia can apply for EU membership which it desperately needs. QED

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shqarthi

pre 15 godina

The ICJ will probably say they have no jurisdiction. Jeremic probably knows it and is doing this just to say later that the majority of the UN supports Serbia. Even if this happens, convincing them to ask for the opinion of ICJ is not the same as supporting Serbia.

Kosovo should start doing the same thing and ask the advisory opinion of the ICJ on the massive expulsion of its citizens in 1998-1999. Even if it is not a member of the UN, Kosovo can appear in front of the ICJ.

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Stoka

pre 15 godina

@ agim

Can I just remind you all that if it wasent for Serbia starting all the wars Yougoslavia would have not broken up and we all wouldent be in this mess.

Please explain to me how Serbia stared all the Yugoslav wars! Any why in the world they would do that. Your statement make no sense

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Mike

pre 15 godina

I've always stated my full support for Serbia taking this matter to the ICJ. Apart from witholding paychecks, emminent domain is the one thing that really riles Americans, and what we did earlier this year is little more than an international application of it. By taking the matter to the ICJ, BG is showing it's sticking to the high road of legal obligations, while individuals from the EU are voicing their opinions that make them little more than strongarming smaller states rather than adhering to any sort of law.

I've yet to see, hear, or read, any definitive reason why Kosovo should be independent, rather than given large degrees of autonomy, with international guarantees of maintaining that autonomy, as well as forcing BG to engage in power sharing. Until an empirical explanation is given, I can't support, nor condone, any measures towards propping up Kosovo's so-called statehood.

Plus, the statements making Serbia's EU entry conditional on recognizing Kosovo's independence is little more than scare tactics. No proclamation has ever made such conditions official. I'm even surprised the critics are coming from the EU and not the US. Though I suspect the US has already dumped the responsibility for keeping Kosovo alive in Brussels' lap.

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dd

pre 15 godina

Agim - # 13,

You are totally wrong. That's main problem with all mess in Balkans - Mesic still takes credit and always tries to make it clear:"I am the one who breaked Yugoslavia" - Croats are the first one booing the "Hej Sloveni" - national anathem. Serbia tried to keep Yugoslavia together but it didn't worked because that scenario didn't fit Western goals.
I am still jugonostalgic and followed the thing as was happening and try to be objective.

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Delije

pre 15 godina

Picu, the only mistake was Tito letting in Albanians during his dictatorship. Dugi, "bring it on..." consider it done. Serbia will be in the EU before Albania or any Albanian inhabited area. But I hope they don't get in anyway. Olf, do we have to go over this again. Yes Serbia eventuly lost the wars because the other Side couldn't fight the Serbs on a one on one war. So the Croats had the US and their mercs for hire, Bosnia had the US and Al Qaida, K Albanians had the US, Al Qaida and Nato. I don't think we lost the Bosnian war there is the Republica Srpska. If it were not for these mighty armys to bail every one out the outcome would have been much much diffrent. Agim Serbia did what. It was the sepritists that started the wars in Yugoslavia. Serbia was oppressed by Tito, and when he died and the Serbs Started to come to power, The other REP. couldn't take it and wanted independence. So as long as Serbs were kept down it was ok with everyone. Tito cause this mess! forceing people to live together.

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Hand Of Moscow

pre 15 godina

Olf, 5 August 2008 17:05

" Which one of the Serbs indicted by ICTY is innocent according to you ? "

I can tell you that none of them comes under the jurisdiction of the International Court. If we put aside the conflict in Kosovo and Metohjia region of Serbia all the rest was a civil war within the Serbs where two parts of the Serbs (those who admit being Serbs and Montenegrins ) fought against two other parts of the Serbs (those who prefer to be called Croats and Bosniaks). So the civil war was a disaster and the tragedy of all four sorts of the Serbs.

International community not only did nothing to stop the blodsheed but even sponsored the brother killing war with the most disgusting German revenge for WW2 and same disgusting US-UK behavior. My own country was nothing better ! So the Tribunal has been established by not a neutral side but an active side in the Serbian civil war. And thus nobody today has any moral right to judge neither Serbs no Serbs believing that by changing their religion they may become Papuas or Indians.

Like any normal human being I hate those attrocities that happened on all sides including the Albanian one. But it was the badluck of the peoples involved while the outside NATO forces used this tragedy for political puposes. By the way they made the same atrocities against Orthodox Serbs supporting Muslim and Vatican Serbs. So at least they also sholuld be prosecuted in Haague.

The most severe civil wars in the history were the Boxer's Riot in China , then The American Revolution and then the civil war of 1918-20 in the Soviet Russia. Such wars were conducted in many European countries during and after WW2. But most peoples were wise enough to stop and try to forget everything. And outside those countries nobody dared to judge the involved while most of the Americans who arranged the most severe massacres are now known as heroes and painted on dollar banknotes.

As usual Serbs made exclusions both in 1945 and in the end of the century. But in any case they are the last nation to be judged in Haague for together with their brother Montenegrins they defended the existing state while all the rest including the Albanians violated both Yugoslavian and International legislations. So if the involved sides had established international court to prosecute military crimes during the civil war I would no doubt support the idea. But the discussed Tribunal reminds me a situation when the circus is gone and the clowns has remained.

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Hand Of Moscow

pre 15 godina

Dear all !

The last phrase in my post running :

"There was time when I believed that Boris is just a cinic and pragmatic western minded man"

is not full ! The prolongation of the phrase has been sencored out. Please mention that I am not a Mr.Tadic's Fan Club member !

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agim

pre 15 godina

Serbia hasn’t introduced a blockade [of Kosovo]. We just believe in peace and diplomacy


Can you believe the words that are coming out of his mouth, all of the sudden serbia is promoting peace and democracy...hypocracy at his best.

Can I just remind you all that if it wasent for Serbia starting all the wars Yougoslavia would have not broken up and we all wouldent be in this mess.

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Nikola

pre 15 godina

@Olf

See olf, I never implied we need to rely on BRIC. We must not rely on anyone which is why I proposed for us to have great relationships with the BRIC countries as well as EU membership. See we Serbs will not depend or rely on anyone like your people do with the United States.


Albanians really think in their heart that America and Americans truly care about the "Kosovars"... get real.. their support for you and your people is so conditional..

What will happen Olf when the U.S. simply gets bored of helping you guys out like it got bored of helping Bosnia out.. Look at Bosnia.. its close to break up... the Muslim-Croat federation is a heart beat away from declaring bankruptcy while Republika Srpska is enjoying economic prosperity.

We Serbs will not rely on anyone but will build great beneficial relationships where the only thing Serbs depend on is Serbia and nothing else!

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bmrusila

pre 15 godina

Olf,

You just keep silent until the moment you press charges. Keep quiet and just do it, simple. That would have come as a surprise. However, just don't know is that allowed in diplomatic world.

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Olf

pre 15 godina

Hand Of Moscow

here is a question for you;

Which one of the Serbs indicted by ICTY is innocent according to you?

bmrusila

how can you keep your intentions quite when you attend to sue somebody.I pressume that you were joking!

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bmrusila

pre 15 godina

I appreciate everything that our foreign minister does but I would like him to be more discreet, meaning that he should be more quite about his intentions, at least for the time being.

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BKK

pre 15 godina

Great move Serbia. Brake away from the shadow of Brussels and continue on your way towards the world which will respect you as a country, not humiliate you like a colony.

Nikola,

I am also against Serbia going into EU, and there are few good reasons for it, one which you mentioned. Once you go in the EU, you do NOT come out. Otherwise, Poland, Denmark and UK would long be gone.
EU is exerting itself as an ultimate authority which answers to noone. This alone makes it an authoratative entity akin to dictatorship. This ''union'' is just an illusion. They're trying to create United States of Europe, with Germany calling the shots.
This is why EU as an entity is being overly defencive about Serbs going to the International court.

As an active member of UKIP, I sencerely hope that Serbia and its politicians can learn from other countries such as UK that EU is not what they would lead you to believe.

All the best to Jeremic. He is coming through as a true Serbian patriot.

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Hand Of Moscow

pre 15 godina

" European officials see this move as a direct provocation of the EU."

They also believe that the existence of Serbia is also a provocation or at least a misunderstanding to be improved.

I can tell you what the Tribunal is. It has been established with one single goal - to justify the aggressins of 1995 and 1999. So they set free coundrels like Haradinai and Oric because they all fought on one side. NATO did not forced peoples of Yugoslavia to peace but provoked civil war to support every anti-Serbian force. So if they imprison the Snake and other legal killers they have to imprison themselves too.

If the Tribunal were independent how could Holbrook promice not to prosecute Karadzic or why should Radovan trust such promices ! The thing is that from the very begining it was a tribunal over prisoners of war where the Serbs were unconditionally guilty. I donn't know how long Serbia is going to stay on it's knees and beg for the integration which upto now has made happy no new member. Hopefully they wake up very soon and see how the world has changed since 1999. With such a big force as Russia behind Serbia has good chances for revival without EU&US gang.

As for the Serbian government I don't trust a single word they say outside the US Embassy. This trip of Jeremic and the EU reaction for it are just parts of one well coordinated scenario to camouflage the Radovan's treason. There was time when I believed that Boris is just a cinic and pragmatic western minded man.

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laki bani

pre 15 godina

I think that Mr. Jeremic’s assertions sound quite immature. No mater if he does it purposely or not it won’t “garner” any wheat, for the reason that; first of all it opposes the main World’s powers (who have recognised independence of Kosovo) interests, secondly the one would become more realistic when defends the stand that affirms the strong opposition to someone’s aspiration for freedom, taking into account that (let us say) 50 % of UN participants more or less have gained their subjectivity in recent decades. Thus, the outcome of any potential vote over the declaration of independence related to the International Law may oppose the Jeremic’s expectations.
Finally, would someone explain to Mr. Jeremic the next definition: “Time is a component of a measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects” (Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). This is a real fact and can not be stopped in any way.

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picu

pre 15 godina

I think Mr. Jeremic is living in a fairytale land.

Dont shoot yourself on your foot. Indepedence of Kosovo is GAME OVER.

KLA and Western allies finally liberated Kosovo, to reverse mistakes of the early 20 century.

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Ronald (the Netherlands)

pre 15 godina

@(Nikola, 5 August 2008 12:37)

----------------------
As for the EU.. I have been the strongest advocate against membership but I suppose if its really that bad as a lot of nationalists say it is we can always leave it
----------------------

Nope, the framework off the EU does not allow seccesion of the EU once you have joined it.

This mather was fixed in the EU constitution so that state's could secceed from the EU if they wished, but as we all know the constition failed and it's successor the lisbon treaty has been shot down by the Irisch.

SO no, you can't leave the EU once you have joined it.

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Olf

pre 15 godina

I remember that not long ago Serbia recalled it’s ambassadors form countries that recognised Independence of Kosova and this move was seen as wise and correct form of revenge. Few days ago ambassador were returned to their workplaces and this move was seen as clever.

Now we have ICJ, move which is thought to be a very wise at the moment.
I wonder in few months time what will happen to ICJ or is it going to be a forgotten thing.

I agree with Nikola when he says that “his government because they control most or all corruption that goes on in Serbia... but what they are doing right now is a solid step to solidify Serbia's position in the international community and on Kosovo”. But I would like to add that they are not doing it the right way.
BRIC have never helped Serbia and will never help. They are using the situation for their own interests. All they have done for Serbia is push Serbia into 4 wars against civilians, 4 of which Serbia has lost.

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Nikola

pre 15 godina

This is a great thing the Tadic government is doing. If you read my previous posts you can tell I'm not to big on him or his government because they control most or all corruption that goes on in Serbia... but what they are doing right now is a solid step to solidify Serbia's position in the international community and on Kosovo.

As for the EU.. I have been the strongest advocate against membership but I suppose if its really that bad as a lot of nationalists say it is we can always leave it. But if it will make Serbia's very battered but highly potential economy rise and the living standard to increase then I will not be opposed to it.

However joining the EU does not mean we need to break or sever relations with the BRIC countries. Strong Brazilian, Russian, Indian and Chinese relations are also very essential for our economic growth and we need to hold on to them dearly.

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Serb Allay

pre 15 godina

Go ahead Serbia and bring this issue to the ICJ in september

The liberation of kosovo province from western / KLA occupiers should finally end.

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Serb Allay

pre 15 godina

Go ahead Serbia and bring this issue to the ICJ in september

The liberation of kosovo province from western / KLA occupiers should finally end.

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Hand Of Moscow

pre 15 godina

" European officials see this move as a direct provocation of the EU."

They also believe that the existence of Serbia is also a provocation or at least a misunderstanding to be improved.

I can tell you what the Tribunal is. It has been established with one single goal - to justify the aggressins of 1995 and 1999. So they set free coundrels like Haradinai and Oric because they all fought on one side. NATO did not forced peoples of Yugoslavia to peace but provoked civil war to support every anti-Serbian force. So if they imprison the Snake and other legal killers they have to imprison themselves too.

If the Tribunal were independent how could Holbrook promice not to prosecute Karadzic or why should Radovan trust such promices ! The thing is that from the very begining it was a tribunal over prisoners of war where the Serbs were unconditionally guilty. I donn't know how long Serbia is going to stay on it's knees and beg for the integration which upto now has made happy no new member. Hopefully they wake up very soon and see how the world has changed since 1999. With such a big force as Russia behind Serbia has good chances for revival without EU&US gang.

As for the Serbian government I don't trust a single word they say outside the US Embassy. This trip of Jeremic and the EU reaction for it are just parts of one well coordinated scenario to camouflage the Radovan's treason. There was time when I believed that Boris is just a cinic and pragmatic western minded man.

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Nikola

pre 15 godina

This is a great thing the Tadic government is doing. If you read my previous posts you can tell I'm not to big on him or his government because they control most or all corruption that goes on in Serbia... but what they are doing right now is a solid step to solidify Serbia's position in the international community and on Kosovo.

As for the EU.. I have been the strongest advocate against membership but I suppose if its really that bad as a lot of nationalists say it is we can always leave it. But if it will make Serbia's very battered but highly potential economy rise and the living standard to increase then I will not be opposed to it.

However joining the EU does not mean we need to break or sever relations with the BRIC countries. Strong Brazilian, Russian, Indian and Chinese relations are also very essential for our economic growth and we need to hold on to them dearly.

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picu

pre 15 godina

I think Mr. Jeremic is living in a fairytale land.

Dont shoot yourself on your foot. Indepedence of Kosovo is GAME OVER.

KLA and Western allies finally liberated Kosovo, to reverse mistakes of the early 20 century.

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BKK

pre 15 godina

Great move Serbia. Brake away from the shadow of Brussels and continue on your way towards the world which will respect you as a country, not humiliate you like a colony.

Nikola,

I am also against Serbia going into EU, and there are few good reasons for it, one which you mentioned. Once you go in the EU, you do NOT come out. Otherwise, Poland, Denmark and UK would long be gone.
EU is exerting itself as an ultimate authority which answers to noone. This alone makes it an authoratative entity akin to dictatorship. This ''union'' is just an illusion. They're trying to create United States of Europe, with Germany calling the shots.
This is why EU as an entity is being overly defencive about Serbs going to the International court.

As an active member of UKIP, I sencerely hope that Serbia and its politicians can learn from other countries such as UK that EU is not what they would lead you to believe.

All the best to Jeremic. He is coming through as a true Serbian patriot.

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Nikola

pre 15 godina

@Olf

See olf, I never implied we need to rely on BRIC. We must not rely on anyone which is why I proposed for us to have great relationships with the BRIC countries as well as EU membership. See we Serbs will not depend or rely on anyone like your people do with the United States.


Albanians really think in their heart that America and Americans truly care about the "Kosovars"... get real.. their support for you and your people is so conditional..

What will happen Olf when the U.S. simply gets bored of helping you guys out like it got bored of helping Bosnia out.. Look at Bosnia.. its close to break up... the Muslim-Croat federation is a heart beat away from declaring bankruptcy while Republika Srpska is enjoying economic prosperity.

We Serbs will not rely on anyone but will build great beneficial relationships where the only thing Serbs depend on is Serbia and nothing else!

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Hand Of Moscow

pre 15 godina

Olf, 5 August 2008 17:05

" Which one of the Serbs indicted by ICTY is innocent according to you ? "

I can tell you that none of them comes under the jurisdiction of the International Court. If we put aside the conflict in Kosovo and Metohjia region of Serbia all the rest was a civil war within the Serbs where two parts of the Serbs (those who admit being Serbs and Montenegrins ) fought against two other parts of the Serbs (those who prefer to be called Croats and Bosniaks). So the civil war was a disaster and the tragedy of all four sorts of the Serbs.

International community not only did nothing to stop the blodsheed but even sponsored the brother killing war with the most disgusting German revenge for WW2 and same disgusting US-UK behavior. My own country was nothing better ! So the Tribunal has been established by not a neutral side but an active side in the Serbian civil war. And thus nobody today has any moral right to judge neither Serbs no Serbs believing that by changing their religion they may become Papuas or Indians.

Like any normal human being I hate those attrocities that happened on all sides including the Albanian one. But it was the badluck of the peoples involved while the outside NATO forces used this tragedy for political puposes. By the way they made the same atrocities against Orthodox Serbs supporting Muslim and Vatican Serbs. So at least they also sholuld be prosecuted in Haague.

The most severe civil wars in the history were the Boxer's Riot in China , then The American Revolution and then the civil war of 1918-20 in the Soviet Russia. Such wars were conducted in many European countries during and after WW2. But most peoples were wise enough to stop and try to forget everything. And outside those countries nobody dared to judge the involved while most of the Americans who arranged the most severe massacres are now known as heroes and painted on dollar banknotes.

As usual Serbs made exclusions both in 1945 and in the end of the century. But in any case they are the last nation to be judged in Haague for together with their brother Montenegrins they defended the existing state while all the rest including the Albanians violated both Yugoslavian and International legislations. So if the involved sides had established international court to prosecute military crimes during the civil war I would no doubt support the idea. But the discussed Tribunal reminds me a situation when the circus is gone and the clowns has remained.

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Hand Of Moscow

pre 15 godina

Dear all !

The last phrase in my post running :

"There was time when I believed that Boris is just a cinic and pragmatic western minded man"

is not full ! The prolongation of the phrase has been sencored out. Please mention that I am not a Mr.Tadic's Fan Club member !

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Delije

pre 15 godina

Picu, the only mistake was Tito letting in Albanians during his dictatorship. Dugi, "bring it on..." consider it done. Serbia will be in the EU before Albania or any Albanian inhabited area. But I hope they don't get in anyway. Olf, do we have to go over this again. Yes Serbia eventuly lost the wars because the other Side couldn't fight the Serbs on a one on one war. So the Croats had the US and their mercs for hire, Bosnia had the US and Al Qaida, K Albanians had the US, Al Qaida and Nato. I don't think we lost the Bosnian war there is the Republica Srpska. If it were not for these mighty armys to bail every one out the outcome would have been much much diffrent. Agim Serbia did what. It was the sepritists that started the wars in Yugoslavia. Serbia was oppressed by Tito, and when he died and the Serbs Started to come to power, The other REP. couldn't take it and wanted independence. So as long as Serbs were kept down it was ok with everyone. Tito cause this mess! forceing people to live together.

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Mike

pre 15 godina

I've always stated my full support for Serbia taking this matter to the ICJ. Apart from witholding paychecks, emminent domain is the one thing that really riles Americans, and what we did earlier this year is little more than an international application of it. By taking the matter to the ICJ, BG is showing it's sticking to the high road of legal obligations, while individuals from the EU are voicing their opinions that make them little more than strongarming smaller states rather than adhering to any sort of law.

I've yet to see, hear, or read, any definitive reason why Kosovo should be independent, rather than given large degrees of autonomy, with international guarantees of maintaining that autonomy, as well as forcing BG to engage in power sharing. Until an empirical explanation is given, I can't support, nor condone, any measures towards propping up Kosovo's so-called statehood.

Plus, the statements making Serbia's EU entry conditional on recognizing Kosovo's independence is little more than scare tactics. No proclamation has ever made such conditions official. I'm even surprised the critics are coming from the EU and not the US. Though I suspect the US has already dumped the responsibility for keeping Kosovo alive in Brussels' lap.

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bmrusila

pre 15 godina

I appreciate everything that our foreign minister does but I would like him to be more discreet, meaning that he should be more quite about his intentions, at least for the time being.

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Stoka

pre 15 godina

@ agim

Can I just remind you all that if it wasent for Serbia starting all the wars Yougoslavia would have not broken up and we all wouldent be in this mess.

Please explain to me how Serbia stared all the Yugoslav wars! Any why in the world they would do that. Your statement make no sense

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bmrusila

pre 15 godina

Olf,

You just keep silent until the moment you press charges. Keep quiet and just do it, simple. That would have come as a surprise. However, just don't know is that allowed in diplomatic world.

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Ronald (the Netherlands)

pre 15 godina

@(Nikola, 5 August 2008 12:37)

----------------------
As for the EU.. I have been the strongest advocate against membership but I suppose if its really that bad as a lot of nationalists say it is we can always leave it
----------------------

Nope, the framework off the EU does not allow seccesion of the EU once you have joined it.

This mather was fixed in the EU constitution so that state's could secceed from the EU if they wished, but as we all know the constition failed and it's successor the lisbon treaty has been shot down by the Irisch.

SO no, you can't leave the EU once you have joined it.

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Olf

pre 15 godina

I remember that not long ago Serbia recalled it’s ambassadors form countries that recognised Independence of Kosova and this move was seen as wise and correct form of revenge. Few days ago ambassador were returned to their workplaces and this move was seen as clever.

Now we have ICJ, move which is thought to be a very wise at the moment.
I wonder in few months time what will happen to ICJ or is it going to be a forgotten thing.

I agree with Nikola when he says that “his government because they control most or all corruption that goes on in Serbia... but what they are doing right now is a solid step to solidify Serbia's position in the international community and on Kosovo”. But I would like to add that they are not doing it the right way.
BRIC have never helped Serbia and will never help. They are using the situation for their own interests. All they have done for Serbia is push Serbia into 4 wars against civilians, 4 of which Serbia has lost.

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Dragan

pre 15 godina

Hand of Moscow,
Thanks for your support and I'm very glad that there are Russians out there like you who know exactly what is going on. Without the help of Russia, Kosovo would already be independent and severed from Serbia. Serbs should realize this. We owe our friends and brothers aa great deal. I believe Russia will be the first country to recognize Republika Srpska, and I look forward to this.
We Serbs (true Serbs) are embarrassed by Tadic. He is not working for Serbia, but for the colonialists, and as the evidence shows, he is doing absolutely everything they tell him. Please don't believe that Serbs agree with his policies, because we don't. The election was stolen due to corrupt politicians in the SPS going against their voters and being bought for cheap.
This will not last and I hope that a resurgent Russia will work hand in hand with a resurgent Serbia. Russians are our true friends, not the EU and not the Americans. Actions speak louder than words. Tadic and his gang have not learned this, and that is why they will be out soon.
Cheers!!

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dd

pre 15 godina

Agim - # 13,

You are totally wrong. That's main problem with all mess in Balkans - Mesic still takes credit and always tries to make it clear:"I am the one who breaked Yugoslavia" - Croats are the first one booing the "Hej Sloveni" - national anathem. Serbia tried to keep Yugoslavia together but it didn't worked because that scenario didn't fit Western goals.
I am still jugonostalgic and followed the thing as was happening and try to be objective.

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The Swiss

pre 15 godina

Serbia’s initiative has come in for harsh criticism from the UK and France, who accuse the Belgrade authorities of provoking the EU, and that it might jeopardize Serbia’s further EU integration.

Interesting.....UK giving lessons after having completely missleaded the people on WOM in Irak, with the result we know today...and France being currently accused of having actively participated in the Rwanda genocide by training and off loading weapons to the rebels...

This apart, I simply can't believe that some "so called" politicians have the courage to so openely threaten a sovereign country, whichever it is, just because that particular country wants to address a clear legal issue to the ICJ.
What is happening today in Europe is simply a shame and frankly I do not know how such an Europe will be able to survive and at which cost to the tax payers!
I join your comment Mike, USA is already not that much interested anymore in Kosovo,
but it became now a burning issued in Europe!
Europe really needed this.....

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laki bani

pre 15 godina

I think that Mr. Jeremic’s assertions sound quite immature. No mater if he does it purposely or not it won’t “garner” any wheat, for the reason that; first of all it opposes the main World’s powers (who have recognised independence of Kosovo) interests, secondly the one would become more realistic when defends the stand that affirms the strong opposition to someone’s aspiration for freedom, taking into account that (let us say) 50 % of UN participants more or less have gained their subjectivity in recent decades. Thus, the outcome of any potential vote over the declaration of independence related to the International Law may oppose the Jeremic’s expectations.
Finally, would someone explain to Mr. Jeremic the next definition: “Time is a component of a measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects” (Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). This is a real fact and can not be stopped in any way.

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agim

pre 15 godina

Serbia hasn’t introduced a blockade [of Kosovo]. We just believe in peace and diplomacy


Can you believe the words that are coming out of his mouth, all of the sudden serbia is promoting peace and democracy...hypocracy at his best.

Can I just remind you all that if it wasent for Serbia starting all the wars Yougoslavia would have not broken up and we all wouldent be in this mess.

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peter, sydney

pre 15 godina

shqarthi:
> The ICJ will probably say they have no jurisdiction

This is a case that is squarely in the ICJ's balliwick, & jurisdiction doesn't apply as it is the UN GA that will be asking for the advisory opinion if Serbia is successful in its lobbying efforts.

And repeating what I have said earlier, & what is said above, while an advisory opinion in Serbia's favour is not binding, it will have quite a lot of weight when it comes to any future recognitions from currently non-committed countries.

Has to do with political protocols - every country wants to be taken seriously & flying in the face of an 'advisory opinion' that says otherwise is a serious factor against recognition.

As for your ideas about 'Kosovo' seeking an 'advisory opinion' from the ICJ, dream on. Such a case would not be pursued as an 'advisory opinion', 'Kosovo isn't a country & here jurisdictional issues most certainly do apply.

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Hand Of Moscow

pre 15 godina

Dear Dragan !

The situation is much better than many Serbs estimate it now. You have to solve your internal problem of national unity and get rid of the imposed illusions over equal membership within the happy united family of European nations. All the rest we can improve together. Worst of all is that there are elements of hypocrisy of the de facto governmet of Serbia. In fact they refused from the main striking force Serbia could obtain. I mean Russia. They support the existing level of relations only because of internal Serbian reasons cause otherwise they would loose the power. Let's hope that very soon Serbs will enjoy a more patriotic ruling elites. Lets hope that in the near future our enemies will again count us together as it has been through the centuries.

Bad news is that very likely Russia will soon be ingaged to the war in Georgia. The American puppet there has got such such instructions from his Washington headquaters. Ossetians twice has defeated the Georgians and they are ready to do it as many times as required but I am afraid the Georgians will attack our peacemakers deployed in the region ... All this is done with one aim to tie our hands for active politics in many regions of the world including Balkans. One should say that the plan is good enough. But we shall live and see. Very soon the US may have too many internal problems to conduct same agressive international politics.


Olf

"ICTY is put on place to stop the crimes and bring to justice those responsible for them ..."

Either you are a prisoner of your own imagination or you wish to hear only what you would like to hear ! This Tribunal is utmost criminal from the very begining ! It has been established to hide the crimes of the winners and nothing else. The first (Italian) head of the Tribunal once said that they prosecute only 1 % of the military criminals ! It only means that the Tribunal follows political purposes and nothing else.

" With this you are denying identity of the entire nations ..."

What about Albanians ? They too belong to Orthodox , Catholic Churches and most of them are a kind of Muslims. But it doesn't mean that they stopped to be Albanians. Same with Georgians who have 10% of muslims. Many nations in the world are divided by the religions. So what ? I personally don't care how some Serbs prefer to be called. What I really care is that they should not kill each other under outside pressure. And I am happy that my country have enough force and political will to improve the crimes committed by the international society against our Orthodox brothers. So the fake Tribunal has got not a single chance to live through the year of 2010. That year it's gonna Reast In Peace (RIP) ...

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ChicagoMichael

pre 15 godina

Nikola, let me address my comment in response to your recent communication. As an American of Serb ethnicity, who came to Chicago as a small child but who has been to beautiful Serbia many times, I would ask you and all Serbs to consider very carefully whether it is a good idea to join the "club" called the EU. Serbs must be fully informed as to what degree of sovereignty and decision-making you are willing to give up to Brussels. Some of the control and power that now resides with the Serbian people through Belgrade will be lost to Brussels. Do the Serbs know what governmental powers you are surrendering, or is Serbia just intoxicated with the idea of joining the West and ANY price? From where I am sitting, the West treats Serbia like a primitive stepson. Before Serbia surrenders a degree of its sovereignty, you should be fully aware what that degree is and whether you are willing to do it. You are assuming that Serbia will be able to maintain and develop relationships with the BRIC nations without Brussels' interference. Do you really know how easy or difficult it is to leave the EU if you don't like it? "Before you jump into a swimming pool, make sure you know exactly how much water is in the pool first, then decide whether to jump in". God Bless Serbia!

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Nexh

pre 15 godina

"The ICJ’s final decision will not be binding, but if Serbia’s arguments are adopted, it could slow down or block recognition of Kosovo as an independent state"

This explains everything, if Serbia decide to go with such a plan then we all know the outcome, it will NOT be binding, and most important is the work "IF".
Another point I would like to make here is that Albanians in Kosovo will never accept to be part of Serbia. Not in this lifetime. Now we are asking ourselves, who is making troubles in the region? I don't think Albanians from Kosovo are doing it. Serbian government is doing such a thing. I just wished that they would understand it once and for all that Kosovo is not part of Serbia anymore. Kosovo is now part of Kosovo for good.
Peace in the Balkans.

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Olf

pre 15 godina

Hand Of Moscow

here is a question for you;

Which one of the Serbs indicted by ICTY is innocent according to you?

bmrusila

how can you keep your intentions quite when you attend to sue somebody.I pressume that you were joking!

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shqarthi

pre 15 godina

The ICJ will probably say they have no jurisdiction. Jeremic probably knows it and is doing this just to say later that the majority of the UN supports Serbia. Even if this happens, convincing them to ask for the opinion of ICJ is not the same as supporting Serbia.

Kosovo should start doing the same thing and ask the advisory opinion of the ICJ on the massive expulsion of its citizens in 1998-1999. Even if it is not a member of the UN, Kosovo can appear in front of the ICJ.

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Delije

pre 15 godina

To Robin Owens, why in hell would Serbia renounce Vojvodina? It's population is about 70%-75% Serbian. Majority rules right? I think Vojvodina is happy right where it is in Serbia. Surrender Mladic, I think we have enough Serbs in the Hague for now.

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Olf

pre 15 godina

Hand of Moscow

ICTY is put on place to stop the crimes and bring to justice those responsible for them. We have to be honest and accept that crimes were not stopped completely but partially and war criminals are tried according to modern practices. You say that the war was between 4 types of Serbs to which I must add that you have gone to far on this one. With this you are denying identity of the entire nations what is not healthy in any case for you.
Mate, hero are not called people that kill 100ths of unarmed civilians, those are called cowards.

Nikola

First of all I am not an Albanian national.
I think that Serbia has the support of Russia and without that support Serbia would not make much noise.
I also understand you when you say that you have not support form BRIC but that is only your wish. In today world nothing functions on its own/ without the support of someone or without a coalition so please be realistic. Wishes are wishes while reality is something else, Serbia is not a superpower but a little nothing that is getting smaller.

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peter, sydney

pre 15 godina

Amer:
Have already stated that getting the UN GA to ask for an advisory opinion from the ICJ will be the real challenge here, but am not quite so pessimistic about Serbia's chances in this as you.

Do not think that non-aligned countries such as Egypt will be overly worried about 'offending' the US & those countries in the western bloc that have supported K-albanian UDI - Egypt for instance didn't seem to be too worried about this 'threat' at the OIC when it opposed recognition.

And 'Kosovo' isn't that important an issue to the US et al to waste that much political capital on.

And we are also just talking about asking individual countries to vote to pass on the issue of legality to the ICJ, & not to vote on the issue itself - which makes it next to impossible to formally base any opposition to this on such with organisations such as the IMF.

With regard to countries with their own separatist issues, I would've thought that the opportunity to have the ICJ squash any idea of a 'Kosovo precedent' being set in the first place, would be of far more value to them than any worry that a negative ruling would establish some sort of a 'recognition blueprint'.


Still, Serbia needs 96 votes, which is not a given - even if 149 have not recognised 'pseudo-state', does not mean they are specifically against it. Is still plenty of work to do.

Keep building up those 'frequent-flyer miles' Vuk.

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Alban of Peja

pre 15 godina

Sqarthi my Albanian Brother,

I think you are correct in concluding that the ICG will decide it does not have jurisdiction on deciding it can offer an opinion on Kosova's Independence.

However, another possibility is that Tadic suspects that the majority of UN members will vote against Serbia going before the ICJ. This way Tadic and new pro-European gov't are off the hook and can justly proclaim that they have tried all options but failed in getting back Kosova. This will eventually lead to Serbia recognizing Kosova so that Serbia can apply for EU membership which it desperately needs. QED

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Wim Roffel

pre 15 godina

The ICJ has been a bit unclear about how it sees the status of Serbia. When Serbia sought a condemnation of the Kosovo war this was rejected because Yugoslavia was not considered a member of the UN. Yet when it came to the Bosnia genocide case the court did consider Yugoslavia a kind of member. I suppose the question by the UN is meant to circumvent this problem.

http://www.law.leidenuniv.nl/general/img/6[1][1].%20Lennert%20Breuker.%20Genocide%20Case_tcm11-37132.pdf

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Amer

pre 15 godina

Serbia's first challenge will be to convince the members of the General Assembly to support its request. No matter how polite the diplomats Mr. Jeremic has been talking to have been to him, their UN representative is going to have to consider what their country's vote might cost it.

Egypt, for example, receives more aid from the US than any country except Israel. Are they going to risk even a fraction of this by going against US wishes? And how many countries apply for aid from the World Bank and support from the IMF? The countries they would be voting against - the US and the European powers - have enough weight there to make such countries' lives very complicated in the future.

Also, countries with minorities seeking independence, like Spain and China and many African nations, will have to decide: do they really want a court ruling specifying the rules of the game for granting a break-away unit independence? This would undoubtedly be contained in the ruling of the ICJ, however they rule in the case of Kosova. The sheer uncertainty of the outcome of a struggle for liberation is now a major argument against even attempting it. Imagine how heartened the Basques and Tibetans will be to learn they need only achieve a limited number of objectives before obtaining legally defined independence. The last thing a country with restive minorities should want is a clearly defined pathway to independence for them.

Countries in either category that don't want to be seen as voting against the "simple" matter of asking for an advisory opinion can merely abstain and explain this to Serbia as being a sign of silent support for Serbia in their individual case but as also being necessary in their own national interests. And then Serbia can start concentrating on the path to EU membership.

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Amer

pre 15 godina

Hi Peter of Sydney - it's going to be an interesting session at the UN, isn't it. I think that certain countries that have not worried about offending the US in the past may suddenly discover they are under pressure they didn't experience before, Egypt specifically. Egypt may be stubborn about, say, how it treats its domestic opposition, despite US cavils, but that is a matter of what their government views as its survival. Unlike in the case of Serbia's motion, where there is no national interest at stake (except for large amounts of foreign aid).

Abstention provides an easy way out, and for the Kosovo position it will work as well as a "no."

A lot depends here (as with other aid recipients) on how serious Russia is - are they willing to replace US funding? Could be, but their support for Serbia has been pretty tepid so far. They will "support whatever Serbia wants" - they aren't leading the charge here. For example, in a B92 interview a couple of months ago Rada Trajković said that the Russian and Chinese ambassadors were privately advising the Kosovar Serbs to deal with Prishtina. Sounds like they'd be just as happy to have the whole problem just go away.

This vote is not going to offer countries with restive minorities the option of squashing the precedent of Kosovo immediately. Their options are to leave the matter of the legality UID open (by abstaining or voting "no") or to vote to let the court actually decide the case and provide the "recognition blueprint" you mentioned. It's a bigger gamble to let it go to court and either lose big (Kosovo is ok) or lose small (Kosovo is not ok - here's how they should have done it, and how the Basques and the Kurds and the Chechens and ... should do it in the future). Better for them to abstain and leave everything up in the air and argue at home that "Kosovo was a special case."

The US State Department certainly bungled their response to the Kosovo declaration of independence - they should have insured they had enough votes to recognize it in advance and made plans to coordinate with Prishtina. Rice let the ball drop and what should have been a routine matter has escalated beyond all reason. But the US - and Geo. W. Bush in particular - does not like to lose, so I think they may be willing to put some effort into straightening this out at the last minute. If not, I'm wrong, and everything will take longer. But the Albanians of Kosovo have been living in the area for 3000+ years, they've seen the Greek, the Roman, the Byzantine, the (rather shorter-lived) Serb, and the Turkish empires come and then go. They can afford to wait. As for the US, it will soon have a new administration.

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picu

pre 15 godina

I think Mr. Jeremic is living in a fairytale land.

Dont shoot yourself on your foot. Indepedence of Kosovo is GAME OVER.

KLA and Western allies finally liberated Kosovo, to reverse mistakes of the early 20 century.

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agim

pre 15 godina

Serbia hasn’t introduced a blockade [of Kosovo]. We just believe in peace and diplomacy


Can you believe the words that are coming out of his mouth, all of the sudden serbia is promoting peace and democracy...hypocracy at his best.

Can I just remind you all that if it wasent for Serbia starting all the wars Yougoslavia would have not broken up and we all wouldent be in this mess.

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Olf

pre 15 godina

I remember that not long ago Serbia recalled it’s ambassadors form countries that recognised Independence of Kosova and this move was seen as wise and correct form of revenge. Few days ago ambassador were returned to their workplaces and this move was seen as clever.

Now we have ICJ, move which is thought to be a very wise at the moment.
I wonder in few months time what will happen to ICJ or is it going to be a forgotten thing.

I agree with Nikola when he says that “his government because they control most or all corruption that goes on in Serbia... but what they are doing right now is a solid step to solidify Serbia's position in the international community and on Kosovo”. But I would like to add that they are not doing it the right way.
BRIC have never helped Serbia and will never help. They are using the situation for their own interests. All they have done for Serbia is push Serbia into 4 wars against civilians, 4 of which Serbia has lost.

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Olf

pre 15 godina

Hand Of Moscow

here is a question for you;

Which one of the Serbs indicted by ICTY is innocent according to you?

bmrusila

how can you keep your intentions quite when you attend to sue somebody.I pressume that you were joking!

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laki bani

pre 15 godina

I think that Mr. Jeremic’s assertions sound quite immature. No mater if he does it purposely or not it won’t “garner” any wheat, for the reason that; first of all it opposes the main World’s powers (who have recognised independence of Kosovo) interests, secondly the one would become more realistic when defends the stand that affirms the strong opposition to someone’s aspiration for freedom, taking into account that (let us say) 50 % of UN participants more or less have gained their subjectivity in recent decades. Thus, the outcome of any potential vote over the declaration of independence related to the International Law may oppose the Jeremic’s expectations.
Finally, would someone explain to Mr. Jeremic the next definition: “Time is a component of a measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects” (Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). This is a real fact and can not be stopped in any way.

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Olf

pre 15 godina

Hand of Moscow

ICTY is put on place to stop the crimes and bring to justice those responsible for them. We have to be honest and accept that crimes were not stopped completely but partially and war criminals are tried according to modern practices. You say that the war was between 4 types of Serbs to which I must add that you have gone to far on this one. With this you are denying identity of the entire nations what is not healthy in any case for you.
Mate, hero are not called people that kill 100ths of unarmed civilians, those are called cowards.

Nikola

First of all I am not an Albanian national.
I think that Serbia has the support of Russia and without that support Serbia would not make much noise.
I also understand you when you say that you have not support form BRIC but that is only your wish. In today world nothing functions on its own/ without the support of someone or without a coalition so please be realistic. Wishes are wishes while reality is something else, Serbia is not a superpower but a little nothing that is getting smaller.

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Serb Allay

pre 15 godina

Go ahead Serbia and bring this issue to the ICJ in september

The liberation of kosovo province from western / KLA occupiers should finally end.

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shqarthi

pre 15 godina

The ICJ will probably say they have no jurisdiction. Jeremic probably knows it and is doing this just to say later that the majority of the UN supports Serbia. Even if this happens, convincing them to ask for the opinion of ICJ is not the same as supporting Serbia.

Kosovo should start doing the same thing and ask the advisory opinion of the ICJ on the massive expulsion of its citizens in 1998-1999. Even if it is not a member of the UN, Kosovo can appear in front of the ICJ.

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Ronald (the Netherlands)

pre 15 godina

@(Nikola, 5 August 2008 12:37)

----------------------
As for the EU.. I have been the strongest advocate against membership but I suppose if its really that bad as a lot of nationalists say it is we can always leave it
----------------------

Nope, the framework off the EU does not allow seccesion of the EU once you have joined it.

This mather was fixed in the EU constitution so that state's could secceed from the EU if they wished, but as we all know the constition failed and it's successor the lisbon treaty has been shot down by the Irisch.

SO no, you can't leave the EU once you have joined it.

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Hand Of Moscow

pre 15 godina

" European officials see this move as a direct provocation of the EU."

They also believe that the existence of Serbia is also a provocation or at least a misunderstanding to be improved.

I can tell you what the Tribunal is. It has been established with one single goal - to justify the aggressins of 1995 and 1999. So they set free coundrels like Haradinai and Oric because they all fought on one side. NATO did not forced peoples of Yugoslavia to peace but provoked civil war to support every anti-Serbian force. So if they imprison the Snake and other legal killers they have to imprison themselves too.

If the Tribunal were independent how could Holbrook promice not to prosecute Karadzic or why should Radovan trust such promices ! The thing is that from the very begining it was a tribunal over prisoners of war where the Serbs were unconditionally guilty. I donn't know how long Serbia is going to stay on it's knees and beg for the integration which upto now has made happy no new member. Hopefully they wake up very soon and see how the world has changed since 1999. With such a big force as Russia behind Serbia has good chances for revival without EU&US gang.

As for the Serbian government I don't trust a single word they say outside the US Embassy. This trip of Jeremic and the EU reaction for it are just parts of one well coordinated scenario to camouflage the Radovan's treason. There was time when I believed that Boris is just a cinic and pragmatic western minded man.

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Nexh

pre 15 godina

"The ICJ’s final decision will not be binding, but if Serbia’s arguments are adopted, it could slow down or block recognition of Kosovo as an independent state"

This explains everything, if Serbia decide to go with such a plan then we all know the outcome, it will NOT be binding, and most important is the work "IF".
Another point I would like to make here is that Albanians in Kosovo will never accept to be part of Serbia. Not in this lifetime. Now we are asking ourselves, who is making troubles in the region? I don't think Albanians from Kosovo are doing it. Serbian government is doing such a thing. I just wished that they would understand it once and for all that Kosovo is not part of Serbia anymore. Kosovo is now part of Kosovo for good.
Peace in the Balkans.

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Nikola

pre 15 godina

This is a great thing the Tadic government is doing. If you read my previous posts you can tell I'm not to big on him or his government because they control most or all corruption that goes on in Serbia... but what they are doing right now is a solid step to solidify Serbia's position in the international community and on Kosovo.

As for the EU.. I have been the strongest advocate against membership but I suppose if its really that bad as a lot of nationalists say it is we can always leave it. But if it will make Serbia's very battered but highly potential economy rise and the living standard to increase then I will not be opposed to it.

However joining the EU does not mean we need to break or sever relations with the BRIC countries. Strong Brazilian, Russian, Indian and Chinese relations are also very essential for our economic growth and we need to hold on to them dearly.

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BKK

pre 15 godina

Great move Serbia. Brake away from the shadow of Brussels and continue on your way towards the world which will respect you as a country, not humiliate you like a colony.

Nikola,

I am also against Serbia going into EU, and there are few good reasons for it, one which you mentioned. Once you go in the EU, you do NOT come out. Otherwise, Poland, Denmark and UK would long be gone.
EU is exerting itself as an ultimate authority which answers to noone. This alone makes it an authoratative entity akin to dictatorship. This ''union'' is just an illusion. They're trying to create United States of Europe, with Germany calling the shots.
This is why EU as an entity is being overly defencive about Serbs going to the International court.

As an active member of UKIP, I sencerely hope that Serbia and its politicians can learn from other countries such as UK that EU is not what they would lead you to believe.

All the best to Jeremic. He is coming through as a true Serbian patriot.

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Nikola

pre 15 godina

@Olf

See olf, I never implied we need to rely on BRIC. We must not rely on anyone which is why I proposed for us to have great relationships with the BRIC countries as well as EU membership. See we Serbs will not depend or rely on anyone like your people do with the United States.


Albanians really think in their heart that America and Americans truly care about the "Kosovars"... get real.. their support for you and your people is so conditional..

What will happen Olf when the U.S. simply gets bored of helping you guys out like it got bored of helping Bosnia out.. Look at Bosnia.. its close to break up... the Muslim-Croat federation is a heart beat away from declaring bankruptcy while Republika Srpska is enjoying economic prosperity.

We Serbs will not rely on anyone but will build great beneficial relationships where the only thing Serbs depend on is Serbia and nothing else!

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bmrusila

pre 15 godina

Olf,

You just keep silent until the moment you press charges. Keep quiet and just do it, simple. That would have come as a surprise. However, just don't know is that allowed in diplomatic world.

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Alban of Peja

pre 15 godina

Sqarthi my Albanian Brother,

I think you are correct in concluding that the ICG will decide it does not have jurisdiction on deciding it can offer an opinion on Kosova's Independence.

However, another possibility is that Tadic suspects that the majority of UN members will vote against Serbia going before the ICJ. This way Tadic and new pro-European gov't are off the hook and can justly proclaim that they have tried all options but failed in getting back Kosova. This will eventually lead to Serbia recognizing Kosova so that Serbia can apply for EU membership which it desperately needs. QED

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Hand Of Moscow

pre 15 godina

Dear Dragan !

The situation is much better than many Serbs estimate it now. You have to solve your internal problem of national unity and get rid of the imposed illusions over equal membership within the happy united family of European nations. All the rest we can improve together. Worst of all is that there are elements of hypocrisy of the de facto governmet of Serbia. In fact they refused from the main striking force Serbia could obtain. I mean Russia. They support the existing level of relations only because of internal Serbian reasons cause otherwise they would loose the power. Let's hope that very soon Serbs will enjoy a more patriotic ruling elites. Lets hope that in the near future our enemies will again count us together as it has been through the centuries.

Bad news is that very likely Russia will soon be ingaged to the war in Georgia. The American puppet there has got such such instructions from his Washington headquaters. Ossetians twice has defeated the Georgians and they are ready to do it as many times as required but I am afraid the Georgians will attack our peacemakers deployed in the region ... All this is done with one aim to tie our hands for active politics in many regions of the world including Balkans. One should say that the plan is good enough. But we shall live and see. Very soon the US may have too many internal problems to conduct same agressive international politics.


Olf

"ICTY is put on place to stop the crimes and bring to justice those responsible for them ..."

Either you are a prisoner of your own imagination or you wish to hear only what you would like to hear ! This Tribunal is utmost criminal from the very begining ! It has been established to hide the crimes of the winners and nothing else. The first (Italian) head of the Tribunal once said that they prosecute only 1 % of the military criminals ! It only means that the Tribunal follows political purposes and nothing else.

" With this you are denying identity of the entire nations ..."

What about Albanians ? They too belong to Orthodox , Catholic Churches and most of them are a kind of Muslims. But it doesn't mean that they stopped to be Albanians. Same with Georgians who have 10% of muslims. Many nations in the world are divided by the religions. So what ? I personally don't care how some Serbs prefer to be called. What I really care is that they should not kill each other under outside pressure. And I am happy that my country have enough force and political will to improve the crimes committed by the international society against our Orthodox brothers. So the fake Tribunal has got not a single chance to live through the year of 2010. That year it's gonna Reast In Peace (RIP) ...

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bmrusila

pre 15 godina

I appreciate everything that our foreign minister does but I would like him to be more discreet, meaning that he should be more quite about his intentions, at least for the time being.

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Hand Of Moscow

pre 15 godina

Olf, 5 August 2008 17:05

" Which one of the Serbs indicted by ICTY is innocent according to you ? "

I can tell you that none of them comes under the jurisdiction of the International Court. If we put aside the conflict in Kosovo and Metohjia region of Serbia all the rest was a civil war within the Serbs where two parts of the Serbs (those who admit being Serbs and Montenegrins ) fought against two other parts of the Serbs (those who prefer to be called Croats and Bosniaks). So the civil war was a disaster and the tragedy of all four sorts of the Serbs.

International community not only did nothing to stop the blodsheed but even sponsored the brother killing war with the most disgusting German revenge for WW2 and same disgusting US-UK behavior. My own country was nothing better ! So the Tribunal has been established by not a neutral side but an active side in the Serbian civil war. And thus nobody today has any moral right to judge neither Serbs no Serbs believing that by changing their religion they may become Papuas or Indians.

Like any normal human being I hate those attrocities that happened on all sides including the Albanian one. But it was the badluck of the peoples involved while the outside NATO forces used this tragedy for political puposes. By the way they made the same atrocities against Orthodox Serbs supporting Muslim and Vatican Serbs. So at least they also sholuld be prosecuted in Haague.

The most severe civil wars in the history were the Boxer's Riot in China , then The American Revolution and then the civil war of 1918-20 in the Soviet Russia. Such wars were conducted in many European countries during and after WW2. But most peoples were wise enough to stop and try to forget everything. And outside those countries nobody dared to judge the involved while most of the Americans who arranged the most severe massacres are now known as heroes and painted on dollar banknotes.

As usual Serbs made exclusions both in 1945 and in the end of the century. But in any case they are the last nation to be judged in Haague for together with their brother Montenegrins they defended the existing state while all the rest including the Albanians violated both Yugoslavian and International legislations. So if the involved sides had established international court to prosecute military crimes during the civil war I would no doubt support the idea. But the discussed Tribunal reminds me a situation when the circus is gone and the clowns has remained.

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Delije

pre 15 godina

Picu, the only mistake was Tito letting in Albanians during his dictatorship. Dugi, "bring it on..." consider it done. Serbia will be in the EU before Albania or any Albanian inhabited area. But I hope they don't get in anyway. Olf, do we have to go over this again. Yes Serbia eventuly lost the wars because the other Side couldn't fight the Serbs on a one on one war. So the Croats had the US and their mercs for hire, Bosnia had the US and Al Qaida, K Albanians had the US, Al Qaida and Nato. I don't think we lost the Bosnian war there is the Republica Srpska. If it were not for these mighty armys to bail every one out the outcome would have been much much diffrent. Agim Serbia did what. It was the sepritists that started the wars in Yugoslavia. Serbia was oppressed by Tito, and when he died and the Serbs Started to come to power, The other REP. couldn't take it and wanted independence. So as long as Serbs were kept down it was ok with everyone. Tito cause this mess! forceing people to live together.

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Hand Of Moscow

pre 15 godina

Dear all !

The last phrase in my post running :

"There was time when I believed that Boris is just a cinic and pragmatic western minded man"

is not full ! The prolongation of the phrase has been sencored out. Please mention that I am not a Mr.Tadic's Fan Club member !

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Mike

pre 15 godina

I've always stated my full support for Serbia taking this matter to the ICJ. Apart from witholding paychecks, emminent domain is the one thing that really riles Americans, and what we did earlier this year is little more than an international application of it. By taking the matter to the ICJ, BG is showing it's sticking to the high road of legal obligations, while individuals from the EU are voicing their opinions that make them little more than strongarming smaller states rather than adhering to any sort of law.

I've yet to see, hear, or read, any definitive reason why Kosovo should be independent, rather than given large degrees of autonomy, with international guarantees of maintaining that autonomy, as well as forcing BG to engage in power sharing. Until an empirical explanation is given, I can't support, nor condone, any measures towards propping up Kosovo's so-called statehood.

Plus, the statements making Serbia's EU entry conditional on recognizing Kosovo's independence is little more than scare tactics. No proclamation has ever made such conditions official. I'm even surprised the critics are coming from the EU and not the US. Though I suspect the US has already dumped the responsibility for keeping Kosovo alive in Brussels' lap.

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Stoka

pre 15 godina

@ agim

Can I just remind you all that if it wasent for Serbia starting all the wars Yougoslavia would have not broken up and we all wouldent be in this mess.

Please explain to me how Serbia stared all the Yugoslav wars! Any why in the world they would do that. Your statement make no sense

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dd

pre 15 godina

Agim - # 13,

You are totally wrong. That's main problem with all mess in Balkans - Mesic still takes credit and always tries to make it clear:"I am the one who breaked Yugoslavia" - Croats are the first one booing the "Hej Sloveni" - national anathem. Serbia tried to keep Yugoslavia together but it didn't worked because that scenario didn't fit Western goals.
I am still jugonostalgic and followed the thing as was happening and try to be objective.

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Delije

pre 15 godina

To Robin Owens, why in hell would Serbia renounce Vojvodina? It's population is about 70%-75% Serbian. Majority rules right? I think Vojvodina is happy right where it is in Serbia. Surrender Mladic, I think we have enough Serbs in the Hague for now.

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Dragan

pre 15 godina

Hand of Moscow,
Thanks for your support and I'm very glad that there are Russians out there like you who know exactly what is going on. Without the help of Russia, Kosovo would already be independent and severed from Serbia. Serbs should realize this. We owe our friends and brothers aa great deal. I believe Russia will be the first country to recognize Republika Srpska, and I look forward to this.
We Serbs (true Serbs) are embarrassed by Tadic. He is not working for Serbia, but for the colonialists, and as the evidence shows, he is doing absolutely everything they tell him. Please don't believe that Serbs agree with his policies, because we don't. The election was stolen due to corrupt politicians in the SPS going against their voters and being bought for cheap.
This will not last and I hope that a resurgent Russia will work hand in hand with a resurgent Serbia. Russians are our true friends, not the EU and not the Americans. Actions speak louder than words. Tadic and his gang have not learned this, and that is why they will be out soon.
Cheers!!

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ChicagoMichael

pre 15 godina

Nikola, let me address my comment in response to your recent communication. As an American of Serb ethnicity, who came to Chicago as a small child but who has been to beautiful Serbia many times, I would ask you and all Serbs to consider very carefully whether it is a good idea to join the "club" called the EU. Serbs must be fully informed as to what degree of sovereignty and decision-making you are willing to give up to Brussels. Some of the control and power that now resides with the Serbian people through Belgrade will be lost to Brussels. Do the Serbs know what governmental powers you are surrendering, or is Serbia just intoxicated with the idea of joining the West and ANY price? From where I am sitting, the West treats Serbia like a primitive stepson. Before Serbia surrenders a degree of its sovereignty, you should be fully aware what that degree is and whether you are willing to do it. You are assuming that Serbia will be able to maintain and develop relationships with the BRIC nations without Brussels' interference. Do you really know how easy or difficult it is to leave the EU if you don't like it? "Before you jump into a swimming pool, make sure you know exactly how much water is in the pool first, then decide whether to jump in". God Bless Serbia!

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The Swiss

pre 15 godina

Serbia’s initiative has come in for harsh criticism from the UK and France, who accuse the Belgrade authorities of provoking the EU, and that it might jeopardize Serbia’s further EU integration.

Interesting.....UK giving lessons after having completely missleaded the people on WOM in Irak, with the result we know today...and France being currently accused of having actively participated in the Rwanda genocide by training and off loading weapons to the rebels...

This apart, I simply can't believe that some "so called" politicians have the courage to so openely threaten a sovereign country, whichever it is, just because that particular country wants to address a clear legal issue to the ICJ.
What is happening today in Europe is simply a shame and frankly I do not know how such an Europe will be able to survive and at which cost to the tax payers!
I join your comment Mike, USA is already not that much interested anymore in Kosovo,
but it became now a burning issued in Europe!
Europe really needed this.....

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peter, sydney

pre 15 godina

shqarthi:
> The ICJ will probably say they have no jurisdiction

This is a case that is squarely in the ICJ's balliwick, & jurisdiction doesn't apply as it is the UN GA that will be asking for the advisory opinion if Serbia is successful in its lobbying efforts.

And repeating what I have said earlier, & what is said above, while an advisory opinion in Serbia's favour is not binding, it will have quite a lot of weight when it comes to any future recognitions from currently non-committed countries.

Has to do with political protocols - every country wants to be taken seriously & flying in the face of an 'advisory opinion' that says otherwise is a serious factor against recognition.

As for your ideas about 'Kosovo' seeking an 'advisory opinion' from the ICJ, dream on. Such a case would not be pursued as an 'advisory opinion', 'Kosovo isn't a country & here jurisdictional issues most certainly do apply.

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Wim Roffel

pre 15 godina

The ICJ has been a bit unclear about how it sees the status of Serbia. When Serbia sought a condemnation of the Kosovo war this was rejected because Yugoslavia was not considered a member of the UN. Yet when it came to the Bosnia genocide case the court did consider Yugoslavia a kind of member. I suppose the question by the UN is meant to circumvent this problem.

http://www.law.leidenuniv.nl/general/img/6[1][1].%20Lennert%20Breuker.%20Genocide%20Case_tcm11-37132.pdf

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Amer

pre 15 godina

Serbia's first challenge will be to convince the members of the General Assembly to support its request. No matter how polite the diplomats Mr. Jeremic has been talking to have been to him, their UN representative is going to have to consider what their country's vote might cost it.

Egypt, for example, receives more aid from the US than any country except Israel. Are they going to risk even a fraction of this by going against US wishes? And how many countries apply for aid from the World Bank and support from the IMF? The countries they would be voting against - the US and the European powers - have enough weight there to make such countries' lives very complicated in the future.

Also, countries with minorities seeking independence, like Spain and China and many African nations, will have to decide: do they really want a court ruling specifying the rules of the game for granting a break-away unit independence? This would undoubtedly be contained in the ruling of the ICJ, however they rule in the case of Kosova. The sheer uncertainty of the outcome of a struggle for liberation is now a major argument against even attempting it. Imagine how heartened the Basques and Tibetans will be to learn they need only achieve a limited number of objectives before obtaining legally defined independence. The last thing a country with restive minorities should want is a clearly defined pathway to independence for them.

Countries in either category that don't want to be seen as voting against the "simple" matter of asking for an advisory opinion can merely abstain and explain this to Serbia as being a sign of silent support for Serbia in their individual case but as also being necessary in their own national interests. And then Serbia can start concentrating on the path to EU membership.

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peter, sydney

pre 15 godina

Amer:
Have already stated that getting the UN GA to ask for an advisory opinion from the ICJ will be the real challenge here, but am not quite so pessimistic about Serbia's chances in this as you.

Do not think that non-aligned countries such as Egypt will be overly worried about 'offending' the US & those countries in the western bloc that have supported K-albanian UDI - Egypt for instance didn't seem to be too worried about this 'threat' at the OIC when it opposed recognition.

And 'Kosovo' isn't that important an issue to the US et al to waste that much political capital on.

And we are also just talking about asking individual countries to vote to pass on the issue of legality to the ICJ, & not to vote on the issue itself - which makes it next to impossible to formally base any opposition to this on such with organisations such as the IMF.

With regard to countries with their own separatist issues, I would've thought that the opportunity to have the ICJ squash any idea of a 'Kosovo precedent' being set in the first place, would be of far more value to them than any worry that a negative ruling would establish some sort of a 'recognition blueprint'.


Still, Serbia needs 96 votes, which is not a given - even if 149 have not recognised 'pseudo-state', does not mean they are specifically against it. Is still plenty of work to do.

Keep building up those 'frequent-flyer miles' Vuk.

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Amer

pre 15 godina

Hi Peter of Sydney - it's going to be an interesting session at the UN, isn't it. I think that certain countries that have not worried about offending the US in the past may suddenly discover they are under pressure they didn't experience before, Egypt specifically. Egypt may be stubborn about, say, how it treats its domestic opposition, despite US cavils, but that is a matter of what their government views as its survival. Unlike in the case of Serbia's motion, where there is no national interest at stake (except for large amounts of foreign aid).

Abstention provides an easy way out, and for the Kosovo position it will work as well as a "no."

A lot depends here (as with other aid recipients) on how serious Russia is - are they willing to replace US funding? Could be, but their support for Serbia has been pretty tepid so far. They will "support whatever Serbia wants" - they aren't leading the charge here. For example, in a B92 interview a couple of months ago Rada Trajković said that the Russian and Chinese ambassadors were privately advising the Kosovar Serbs to deal with Prishtina. Sounds like they'd be just as happy to have the whole problem just go away.

This vote is not going to offer countries with restive minorities the option of squashing the precedent of Kosovo immediately. Their options are to leave the matter of the legality UID open (by abstaining or voting "no") or to vote to let the court actually decide the case and provide the "recognition blueprint" you mentioned. It's a bigger gamble to let it go to court and either lose big (Kosovo is ok) or lose small (Kosovo is not ok - here's how they should have done it, and how the Basques and the Kurds and the Chechens and ... should do it in the future). Better for them to abstain and leave everything up in the air and argue at home that "Kosovo was a special case."

The US State Department certainly bungled their response to the Kosovo declaration of independence - they should have insured they had enough votes to recognize it in advance and made plans to coordinate with Prishtina. Rice let the ball drop and what should have been a routine matter has escalated beyond all reason. But the US - and Geo. W. Bush in particular - does not like to lose, so I think they may be willing to put some effort into straightening this out at the last minute. If not, I'm wrong, and everything will take longer. But the Albanians of Kosovo have been living in the area for 3000+ years, they've seen the Greek, the Roman, the Byzantine, the (rather shorter-lived) Serb, and the Turkish empires come and then go. They can afford to wait. As for the US, it will soon have a new administration.

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