just as the british occupation of India or other parts of the world has shown to be all but irreversible, even the temporary occupation of the southern serbian province is not irreversible.
at least a british official should know that... :)
First, India and China smack down the EU/US carved out WTO deal. A oainful sign that they can no longer call the shots in this international fora. Then, the same countries are tired of US armtwisting in the UN, and have started their own.
Kosovo is now being used as an oportunity to show off diplomatic strength and international power, it is India anc China, against the US and the EU. The former won last time, and this time they have teamed up with bot Russia and Brazil, so I guess they will win again.
The EU and the Us has to acknowledge a new world order, and in that order, a credible international law that everyone has to follow is in their interest.
So they inevitably need Belgrade's consent on any lasting Kosovo "solution". That means, they have to come up with some real carrots that Belgrade will accept.
I am looking forward to see what hese carrots will be in the end, but hot candidates would include:
1. Partition of Kosovo
2. EU security guarantee for Serbian churches and monastries, with the right to sue the EU if they fail.
3. EU security guarantee for minorities in Kosovo, with ditto rights if they fail.
4. International prosecution of the current criminal leadership of Kosovo.
5. EU membership for Serbia
6. Free travel from Serbia to Kosovo, but not the other way around (Schengen vs non-Schengen).
7. A solid budget support programme for Belgrade.
8. Prosecution of non-Serb war criminals in ICTY
Dear Mr. Wordsworth,
it has been a while since UK acts on "behalf of US" in Europe... Even Kosovo deal was done firstly to secure US interests - in spite of many strong voices against that move in EU and Europe, and as usual- UK was "eager" to push through US plans. Serbia's stand in this matter is far more principled, then that of your country.
The question is - where is EU heading? In spite it's present apparent strength - EU (and Europe) will be less and less influential factor in world economy. I think it is widely believed that 21st century will be the century of Asia ( an not of EU). Apparent "athes tic" image that EU is trying to project to the outside world (and Kosovo experiment is part of that) is designed to attract population from very theistic non-European countries (because EU has a low birth rate). So natural question arises - how would EU look like after this experiments in lets say 50 years? Where will EU be then in the world scale?
Kosovo doesn't not care about the decision of the court because Kosovo independence is Oxygen for stability and prosperity of the Kosovo itself and the Balkans as a whole.
ICJ, anyhow is just a joke. Regardless what outcome is natuarally is not bounding.
We have got used with Serbian hypocratical rhetoric who say that UNSC did not accept you thus you cannot be independent. I know even when we are accepted by the UNSC, not EVEN a year from today, Serbia WILL AGAIN say we dont care we will never accept you as an independent..
So why should Kosovars bother about Serbian affairs. We have all attributes of the state and been accepted from the cream-della-cream countries of the world.
I agree with Michael Thomas when he says being in the EU alone does not give you a western living standard. And like Matthew alluded to the EU seems to be moving the goal posts all the time.
All that means is Serbs need to work toward EU institutional standards, but at the same time keep their own foreign and domestic policy. The EU countries have far more respect for a Serbia that is strong and standing.
@village-bey "Borders will increasingly become less relevant thus, you do not need to place too much importance to border between Kosova and Serbia."
Serbia fell for that one twice already when Yugoslavia was formed. Once after WWI and then again when they made the different republics' boundaries after WWII.
The Serbian government can ask the ICJ for an opinion, but don't be surprised if the ICJ claims that it has no jurisdiction over the matter just like it refused to rule on the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999. They should expand the UN resolution to directly condemn Kosovo's UDI and the countries that recognized it and put it to a straight vote. They should also propose another resolution that gives the USA a December 31, 2008 deadline to accept the authority and rulings of the ICJ or the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty becomes null and void. Why should the USA be given the ability to arbitrarily threaten countries that have no nuclear weapons? If the USA refuses to obey international law, then its nuclear dominance should be removed.
If I read your comments correctly, the crux of your argument is that Serbia would do wise not to sue the countries that could make or break its EU membership because countries like the UK, Netherlands, etc. are the ones who call the shots, and that Serbia, if it wants to join a "democratic" club, better play by the rules.
So how then is a group of countries pressing Serbia to NOT pursue its legal right an example of democratic practice? Seems more to me like strongarming and hustling. If certain states keep Serbia out of the EU on account of BG taking them to the ICJ, regardless of the ruling, it's a clear example of might over reason.
Somehow I just don't see any EU member state barring Serbia on account of this, and if I'm wrong, the entire EU needs to be scrapped on account of a total failure in finding transnational consensus.
Dear Ataman,
Nice to see you back on the ball again. I have missed your name-calling and primitive art analogies to the current Kosova leadership. If it’s any conciliation, I too wish for a swift change of the current people, probably more than you do.
Anyway, back to our nurses again.
1. If I was a betting man, I won’t bet on it.
2. You must admit that in comparison to old days we have witnessed progress. Previously we had whole periods were nearly 50,000 men were trying to pacify the Albanians. Bearing in mind our traditional dislike for the doctors/ nurses games and lasses in uniforms, I do believe the current buffer will become a permanent feature only in the minds of people, while we will witness the demilitarisation of Serbia too. I do agree that jury is still out on this one but by their own admission Serbian side do not see a military solution to this issue or to any other issues for that matter.
3. Euro Atlantic integration could be the ideal solution for Serbia too. That would mean no border with Kosova and you can take some comfort from the fact that Kosova needs to achieve European standards on minority rights to qualify for Stabilisation Association.
4. Good old partition. That would mean less problems for everyone but you are missing one small detail. It has never been on the table. If separation was part of a civilised agreement between the two sides, yes, maybe a deal might have been struck, but that’s hardly the case. Our partition has been painful and bloody.
Everyone has learned to respect realities on the ground. It doesn’t necessarily mean partition. As things stand, Kosova Serbs are in desperate need for an alternative to the current status quo. Serb insistence on partition has no sound bases as the Serbian side has constitutional guarantees on rights and matters of concern.
You insistence stems out from a self-conceived perception of Albanians, but that too will change with emancipation and time.
5. I did not say Serb nationalism was dead but not as strong as before. Maybe is still able to kick someone in the teeth but I am glad that this time around we are not on the receiving end.
6. I complexly agree although I do wonder how he managed to find the same barber after all this years.
7. I wish Russia all the best, no skin off my nose. I was only saying that the frightful prediction where after Kosova every separatist aspiration would materialise in armed revolts where proven wrong.
8. Your argument is valid but we need to contextualise it again. Ours and theirs division are salient derivates of a post war analysis. If we were to consider your take on this, the institutionalised position of BG against independence might not suit every Serb in Kosova. People will be reluctant to bring up a family in a self-excluded lawless place. As a result, you will have more single men of a dubious past replacing families. Doesn’t take a genius to see the long-term result of such population movement.
Your argument of borders still applies to your side. Borders will increasingly become less relevant thus, you do not need to place too much importance to border between Kosova and Serbia.
"until some EU states recognize Kosovo, the EU cannot insist that Serbia does something of the kind".
In other words, yes they WILL make recognizing Kosovo a condition for EU membership. Its only a matter of time.
The Dutch have already said merely arresting Mladic and Karadzic is not enough, that Serbia needs to turn over more documents and cooperative witnesses.
70% of the Serbian population will NOT trade Kosovo for EU membership.
As much as I don’t like some of propaganda coming from the Nationalists at this time, I personally think they were right to want to ask for assurances that Serbia could join the EU without recognizing Kosovo. Had they stated their concerns in a rational manner, they might have been successful in getting their message across, instead they choose to use controversial and divisive language that only alienated moderates with valid questions about the EU.
Tadic was banking on his EU friends making it easier to join, but they just seem to be piling on the conditions now. I like Tadic very much, but he’s acting rather naïve right now.
SPS will have the distinction of having been in power when Kosovo was occupied, and when it was finally stolen by the EU. Their days as a functioning party will be over very soon. Once they serve no useful purpose to the big players, they will be discarded.
A positive ICJ ruling in Serbia's favor will not revoke Kosovo's self-perceived sense of independence, nor will it force states that have recognized to revoke recognition.
However that's not the point. The point of taking this to the ICJ is to show that the EU is in legal and material breach of its powers, and such a decision to back the unilateral declaration of independence by a separatist group is illegal. It will also serve to greatly dissuade any other countries from recognizing Kosovo since they can now point to legal means for not doing so. Lastly, it gives Serbia a far greater position at the eventual negotiation table. An embarrassed EU will undoubtedly be forced to make a certain number of concessions over Kosovo in order to ensure stability.
All part of Tadic's new strategies on Kosovo. Who knows if it's going to work, but it's a far different tactic than the expected DSS type stonewalling.
Mike, u’ve got it wrong…
‘The point of taking this to the ICJ is to show that the EU is in legal and material breach of its powers, and such a decision to back the unilateral declaration of independence by a separatist group is illegal.’
…
‘An embarrassed EU will undoubtedly be forced to make a certain number of concessions over Kosovo in order to ensure stability.’
First, EU does not recognize states, member state of EU do.
and
Second, see the first, but add: member states vote YES/NO, who gets IN, and who stays OUT. And I don’t think UK, Netherlands, belgium and the rest would say YES if Serbia takes them to a court. Don’t think either the would make concessions, because they simply don’t care and have no reason to do so. It’s Serbia that want’s to join the club. But the club is only for democratic states, and if you don’t think the club is democratic, don’t beg so hard to get in.
Do all those who are in favor of the ICj opinion think what that opinion could be? Or they still imagine would be positive...
any analysis conducted first? What are the scenarios?
my prediction,if taken that is, ICK would say that it is not the competent body to rule on such a case, as it lays exclusively states' right to recognize another state or not. I don't know any state in the world to have STATE status given by ICJ.
1) Probably it's not the last stand, but an important stand for Serbs where they can only win. They would be foolish not to use it.
2) "Destabilization of the region" argument hard to prove or contradict. The time was to short. One is for sure, Kosovo has even more nurses and sometimes the more nurses, the easier is for the baby to get lost. I do not see any progress yet.
3) "The region moving towards Euro-Atlantic future" could be true, but it's not necessary a sign of progress. I am sure, there will be a significant pressure for military investments and corruption (see the SAAB "deal" and that they already approaching Serbia). Moving towards the "Euro" part is given, the problem is, that moving we expected to be completed by 1990, not 2020. 30 years were wasted just because JU was to big to digest as whole. But we do not know, what shape will be the EU in 2020. EU is of course quite an ugly thing, but anything else is even worse.
4) "Frozen Conflict" applies less to the Kosovo recognition by Serbia, it is more about Kosovo partition. Here it is the "new reality".
5) Serbia's nationalistic revival is an accomplished fact. Without Kosovo as it is, a small, rather insignificant fascistoid party would remain what it is and not become a what it is for people who are just patriotic (party #2).
6) The hair-style of Karadzic from 2000 till July 2008 was cooler than before and after!
7) I did not see any desperation on the Russian side. They were pretty calm. I do not know, what the game are they playing, all I know, they play game and they play for their own interest.
8) Your Independence is well-deserved and fine thing. You should be entitled gradually to many things like own militia, own representation, own constitution, own economy planing, own currency (and later to coin your own Euros with Kosovo-Albanian design). What you should not get is to be called that "own country" simply because it's history belongs to both ethnics elements. Kosovo is "your" country and "theirs" at the same time. Any artificial border will make many people mad.
The list what I write is longer and more extensive than what you would ever dream to get from the false "friends", but unfortunately there is no trust between you and Serbs, you chosen what seem to be easier for now, but it violates the mutuality, so it will be harder at the end.
You can argue that if I say, "Kosovo is 'your' country and 'theirs' at the same time", and that there shouldn't be a border between Serbia Proper and Kosovo - why is than the border between Kosovo and Albania? This would be the best argument. My answer is, that of course the border between Kosovo and Albania is completely artificial, too - and at the moment economical/social development of Albania and Serbia is on-pair, that border shouldn't exist regardless of Schengen.
saying it constituted for "a direct challenge to the EU", that will "only make cooperation and Serbia's integration into the EU more difficult".
Agh, nothing new here just parroting what we already know about US/EU/K-Albanian gangster position on Kosovo
I think Serbia has found its way: it is a solid path. We don't have to join EU if the EU is blackmailing us over Kosovo. And as much as we would want this EU membership
to happen, our integrity comes first. That position is very m uch in the line with our history of the freedom and liberty (above everything) and therefore feels like a right thing to do.
We won't accept being blackmailed. That is a very mature position, and the only thing we have to do is to stick to it indefinitely.
Who are you defying by asking a court its legal opinion on a matter. Isn't that why courts are established so a matter between 2 or more parties can solve the situation peacefully and with no bias.
It seems that the ICJ is not The Hauge and will not make rulings that the west always likes. This is the same when about a week or two ago when someone in the French government told Serbia NOT to ask the courts opinion... this rhetoric raises from advice to demand.
In any case, the EU will get over it.. Serbia needs to keep pushing forward to a better society and a society that practices basic modern, democratic and European principals that most of the EU have forgotten.
I apologize to the EU if this ruling will make the United States and its followers look like fools... but justice must prevail.
Vuk Jeremic categorically stated in last night's episode of BBC's Hard Talk that if ever posed with a choice between EU membership and retaining Kosovo as a Serbian province Serbia would say no to EU membership. I think this is a very interesting statement and I don't remember the foreign minister ever having been so explicit about this issue. You should write a report about this.
2 days ago on a BBC Hardtalk interview with Stephen Sackur, Vuk Jeremic was asked a direct question along the lines of, "if the EU demands that you recognise Kosovo as independent as a condition of EU entry, you choose to enter the EU: yes or no?"
After going around the houses a few times by saying that EU will never place this condition in the way (some hope!), he said: no.
In other words, Jeremic has now confirmed one of two things:
1) he lies through his teeth,
2) DS/ZeS recent electionneering that entry to EU was their single most important goal was a lie.
The entire interview held some very, VERY interesting comments and views. Things that are VERY important for Serbia's future. Strange that Serbian media has not covered this interview, but is happy to repeat the nonsense of Markovic, Sutanovic, Nikolic, Kostunica et al.
Mr. Wordsworth, (along with Munter), is truly a "spin doctor" who, by his words, is trying to promote his agenda of confusion, doubt, and threats. Of course the EU doesn't want a dissenting opinion of Kosovo's UDI- so let's threaten the Serbs some more by suspending ANY potential trade agreements. My confusion is that why would any Serb or Serb-representing politician succumb to these threats on our nationhood. Don't the Serbs want their own nation anymore? Do they simply want to obey their "EU Masters" and become a "zombie state"??? Listening to logic like Wordsworth's....this is what you'll get!
And as an aside, everyone and every nation makes mistakes. And it takes good and honest persons and good and honest nations to realize their mistakes and to make uncomfortable corrections to what is becoming more and more obvious that Kosovo's UDI was WRONG and so premature. As irreversible as politians would like you to believe, suspending or revoking recognitions is only as difficult as having a "little egg on your face", and correcting mistakes will only make you stronger and more respected among people and nations.
This representative of Perfidious Albion makes me ashamed to be British. The British political class have sold out England to the EU, and now they are intent on destroying Serbia too. Tell them to get lost.
That recognition of Kosovo will not be a condition sounds rather insincere. With some German diplomats saying the opposite, many people suggesting that the EU won't take up another conflict like Cyprus and every EU member having the right to put its own conditions this is at most a half truth.
A verdict from the ICJ will create exactly that what British and American politicians love so much: a new reality. It would put pressure on Kosovo to finally seek a compromise with Serbia. This would help Kosovo not alone with better relations with its neighbours; it might also force Kosovo to implement reforms like better and faster resolution of property conflicts.
So, mr. ambassador, that new reality may actually become a very good thing for Kosovo. If only you can hurry a bit in recognizing it...
ICJ consultation is the figleaf of DS's defending of Serbian sovereignty over Kosovo! They cannot drop it without admitting that they have dropped Kosovo! The only real legal way of defending Serbian sovereignty over the province would have been to sue individual countries who have recognized UDI in despite of international law. At least there would have been a binding ruling of the court!
Is this the last stand for Serbia?
What happened with the other arguments against independence?
Let me see if I can remember them.
Destabilisation of the region,,, No one seems to use that anymore, nonetheless things seem more stable than before. The other camp would suggest that the whole thing is put into a freezer for the time being but the evidence suggests that the region is moving on, towards a Euro-Atlantic future. The frozen conflict rhetoric plainly means that Serbia will not agree to recognise Kosova. Well no one is asking Serbia to do that.
A great deal of noise was made about the risk of Serbia’s nationalistic revival,,, well it seems to be dying out to me. Karadzic’s hairstyle might be back but that’s all. This part-time failed poet and full-time psychopath has become an embarrassment for the moderate majority in Serbia. His ideology of ethnic separation and territory acquisition by all means, is a thing of the past.
Pandora effect,,, apart from some desperate Russian attempt neither Pandora nor Leonora have made an appearance. South Odesia is well documented to be propagated and initiated by Russia. In effect, what Russians are doing is creating more trouble for themselves.
The only thing left is the talk about legality, which sometimes is linked to justice from a Serbian perspective.
Serb Allay made the suggestion that our Independence was a great injustice to Serbia. If you contextualise the issue of justice, you will see that justice is better served by an Independent Kosova.
Wordsworth's comments can be explained by a favorite joke among diplomats, that their job is to tell you to go to hell and convince you its worth the visit. That he worries about the outcome of the ICJ referral shows that he and other pro-independence countries realize that independence does in fact violate international law. Nothing would stop further recognitions in their tracks than a decision by a majority of the General Assembly to refer it (big, democratic India's endorsement of this referral is a strong sign that we'll win a majority), and nothing would doom Kosovo's legitimacy as an independent state forever than the almost certain ICJ legal opinion that independence is illegal. You can really sense the fear in his comments.
I read from you something realistic though I do not agree with your deductions.
Kate, Peggy and Bmrusila,
Reading your comments it proves how impossible is to change the new REALITY in Kosova in favor of Serbia. Serbia either puts up with the new REALITY or shut up. A question for three of you. Will Serbia accept the opinion of ICJ should it say that Kosova's proclamation of independence is legitimate? Or will you say that the ICJ bowed to American pressure and Serbia will continue not to recognise Kosova?
The economic success of countries like Germany, France and Great Britain has many causes most of which are due to the national characteristics of those nations. Membership of the EU is not a significant factor in any nation’s wealth. Bulgarians will not attain the living standards of Germans merely by joining the EU; to prosper they will need to work as hard as Germans and be as smart as Germans. Membership of the EU is a political ambition not an economic remedy for the financial problems of nations.
Serbia will not benefit financially from EU membership. They will most likely suffer financially as links with Russia and other non-EU countries will be severed or sabotaged by Brussels.
Politically EU membership would be a disaster for Serbia. Kosovo will be lost for ever, Raska will be given the Islamists in Bosnia, Vojvodina will be given “supervised independence” and what remains of Serbia will be carved up into autonomous regions. The Serbian army will be disbanded and Parliament will exist merely to rubber-stamp decisions handed down from Brussels, Berlin and London.
Serbia should sever all ties with the EU and build its own path the prosperity and security. There are no quick fixes for Serbia; it will take time, intelligence and hard work to make its rich and free.
I really don't have faith in this government to pursue this matter in a competent manner. As it is so close to Solana and the boys I expect that when crunch time comes, it will do a U-turn and eventually say something like "We tried but failed".
Before the UN general assembly meeting, I would expect a push for another round of recognitions.
This matter should have been lodged with the ICJ from day one to discourage recognitions from the beginning as DSS wanted but delaying it has given the US sufficient time to arm twist many nations into recognition.
Stephen Wordsworth!! your just like your bosses Brown & Bush TALKING NON-SENSE at all. What you did by taking kosovo is a grave injustice to the Serbian people.
Therefore SERBIA should proceed and get the opinion of the ICJ on september.
> Wordsworth also described Belgrade's announced initiative to have the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ... saying it constituted for "a direct challenge to the EU".
> The European Union, as an organization, cannot condition Serbia's membership with something it is not asking from its current members,
Looks like both of Mr Wordsworth's faces are talking at once.
On the one hand, he says that the EU cannot pre-condition Serbia's membership on the recognition of the K-albanian 'pseudo-state' because the EU itself has not recognised it - leaving the issue up to the individual membership.
And then on the other hand, he describes Serbia's upcoming case at the ICJ 'as a direct challenge' to the EU.
How can this be Mr Wordsworth, when the EU does not have a position with regard to the K-albanian 'pseudo-state'?
What you meant to say of course, is that Serbia's case is a direct challenge to the machinations of 'brussels' - which is dominated by the likes of the UK, Germany etc.
No need to worry about it Mr Wordsworth - that is if you think the ICJ will rule in favour of the UDI.
the EU is worried about getting egg on its face. Its blindly followed MR Bush on Kosovo independence. i bet Serbias intergration into the EU will be speeded up. I wounder if my country the UK will be so keen on Kosovo independence if Scotland vote to break away from the union? What would our goverment say if say Serbia was the first to recognise Scotland as an independent state.Mr. Wordsworth be careful what you wish for the EU is playing a dangerous game with allowing this little state independence.
That is different. If Serbia does not want to enter than they can do whatever they want. However, 20 out of 27 EU nations support Kosova and have spent Billions to make it independent so why should they accept a nation (Serbia) that works against their goals?
For Serbs: EU or Kosovo and it should be a referendum so no one politician is branded as Brankovic.
After all the warnings and threats coming form the EU members due to our intention to ask ICJ for an opinion in regard to Kosovo’s IDU legality, I get the impression that it is right thing to do. If we fail to use all the legal means (even if that means never into EU), then we don’t deserve to be treated with the respect and should never be taken seriously on anything when it comes to foreign policy.
Besides, these threats only reveal the true face of the EU since it clearly shows that (even if member of the EU) Serbia would have no any right on her say and would be treated as a second class (if not third class) country with having no rights on own stand. Who needs the EU with this kind of colonial behaviour?
Mr. Wordsworth can you tell us why it is a mistake?
Why is it a mistake for Serbia to get a legal opinion of a court? Are you afraid of what that opinion will be so you have to now resort to threats?
If Serbia asks the court to give it's opinion what are you going to do? How is Serbia going to suffer because of this?
No Sir, you made a mistake a long time ago and now you are afraid of it coming to bite you.
It is interesting, how these "diplomats" do their best to undermine the democracy and progress of Serbia they allegedly demand from Serbia.
If you think, you doing right = why worry about some international courts?
If you think, international courts are biased = why demand Hague cooperation?
If you can't compose a single sentence using a simple logic = why seek a diplomatic carrier?
(at least I have an answer to the last question: $$$£££€€€)
"...saying it constituted for "a direct challenge to the EU"."
And what is wrong with that? If there is any true justice, that is exactly what will happen.
The EU as a body would need to recognise Kosovo to have any impact, and even then they would have to negotiate with the UN. Only the Security Council can alter the resolution under which Kosovo is run as a protectorate and recognised legally as a province of a sovereign territory.
Mr. Wordsworth can you tell us why it is a mistake?
Why is it a mistake for Serbia to get a legal opinion of a court? Are you afraid of what that opinion will be so you have to now resort to threats?
If Serbia asks the court to give it's opinion what are you going to do? How is Serbia going to suffer because of this?
No Sir, you made a mistake a long time ago and now you are afraid of it coming to bite you.
"...saying it constituted for "a direct challenge to the EU"."
And what is wrong with that? If there is any true justice, that is exactly what will happen.
The EU as a body would need to recognise Kosovo to have any impact, and even then they would have to negotiate with the UN. Only the Security Council can alter the resolution under which Kosovo is run as a protectorate and recognised legally as a province of a sovereign territory.
After all the warnings and threats coming form the EU members due to our intention to ask ICJ for an opinion in regard to Kosovo’s IDU legality, I get the impression that it is right thing to do. If we fail to use all the legal means (even if that means never into EU), then we don’t deserve to be treated with the respect and should never be taken seriously on anything when it comes to foreign policy.
Besides, these threats only reveal the true face of the EU since it clearly shows that (even if member of the EU) Serbia would have no any right on her say and would be treated as a second class (if not third class) country with having no rights on own stand. Who needs the EU with this kind of colonial behaviour?
the EU is worried about getting egg on its face. Its blindly followed MR Bush on Kosovo independence. i bet Serbias intergration into the EU will be speeded up. I wounder if my country the UK will be so keen on Kosovo independence if Scotland vote to break away from the union? What would our goverment say if say Serbia was the first to recognise Scotland as an independent state.Mr. Wordsworth be careful what you wish for the EU is playing a dangerous game with allowing this little state independence.
It is interesting, how these "diplomats" do their best to undermine the democracy and progress of Serbia they allegedly demand from Serbia.
If you think, you doing right = why worry about some international courts?
If you think, international courts are biased = why demand Hague cooperation?
If you can't compose a single sentence using a simple logic = why seek a diplomatic carrier?
(at least I have an answer to the last question: $$$£££€€€)
The economic success of countries like Germany, France and Great Britain has many causes most of which are due to the national characteristics of those nations. Membership of the EU is not a significant factor in any nation’s wealth. Bulgarians will not attain the living standards of Germans merely by joining the EU; to prosper they will need to work as hard as Germans and be as smart as Germans. Membership of the EU is a political ambition not an economic remedy for the financial problems of nations.
Serbia will not benefit financially from EU membership. They will most likely suffer financially as links with Russia and other non-EU countries will be severed or sabotaged by Brussels.
Politically EU membership would be a disaster for Serbia. Kosovo will be lost for ever, Raska will be given the Islamists in Bosnia, Vojvodina will be given “supervised independence” and what remains of Serbia will be carved up into autonomous regions. The Serbian army will be disbanded and Parliament will exist merely to rubber-stamp decisions handed down from Brussels, Berlin and London.
Serbia should sever all ties with the EU and build its own path the prosperity and security. There are no quick fixes for Serbia; it will take time, intelligence and hard work to make its rich and free.
> Wordsworth also described Belgrade's announced initiative to have the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ... saying it constituted for "a direct challenge to the EU".
> The European Union, as an organization, cannot condition Serbia's membership with something it is not asking from its current members,
Looks like both of Mr Wordsworth's faces are talking at once.
On the one hand, he says that the EU cannot pre-condition Serbia's membership on the recognition of the K-albanian 'pseudo-state' because the EU itself has not recognised it - leaving the issue up to the individual membership.
And then on the other hand, he describes Serbia's upcoming case at the ICJ 'as a direct challenge' to the EU.
How can this be Mr Wordsworth, when the EU does not have a position with regard to the K-albanian 'pseudo-state'?
What you meant to say of course, is that Serbia's case is a direct challenge to the machinations of 'brussels' - which is dominated by the likes of the UK, Germany etc.
No need to worry about it Mr Wordsworth - that is if you think the ICJ will rule in favour of the UDI.
Stephen Wordsworth!! your just like your bosses Brown & Bush TALKING NON-SENSE at all. What you did by taking kosovo is a grave injustice to the Serbian people.
Therefore SERBIA should proceed and get the opinion of the ICJ on september.
Who are you defying by asking a court its legal opinion on a matter. Isn't that why courts are established so a matter between 2 or more parties can solve the situation peacefully and with no bias.
It seems that the ICJ is not The Hauge and will not make rulings that the west always likes. This is the same when about a week or two ago when someone in the French government told Serbia NOT to ask the courts opinion... this rhetoric raises from advice to demand.
In any case, the EU will get over it.. Serbia needs to keep pushing forward to a better society and a society that practices basic modern, democratic and European principals that most of the EU have forgotten.
I apologize to the EU if this ruling will make the United States and its followers look like fools... but justice must prevail.
I really don't have faith in this government to pursue this matter in a competent manner. As it is so close to Solana and the boys I expect that when crunch time comes, it will do a U-turn and eventually say something like "We tried but failed".
Before the UN general assembly meeting, I would expect a push for another round of recognitions.
This matter should have been lodged with the ICJ from day one to discourage recognitions from the beginning as DSS wanted but delaying it has given the US sufficient time to arm twist many nations into recognition.
Wordsworth's comments can be explained by a favorite joke among diplomats, that their job is to tell you to go to hell and convince you its worth the visit. That he worries about the outcome of the ICJ referral shows that he and other pro-independence countries realize that independence does in fact violate international law. Nothing would stop further recognitions in their tracks than a decision by a majority of the General Assembly to refer it (big, democratic India's endorsement of this referral is a strong sign that we'll win a majority), and nothing would doom Kosovo's legitimacy as an independent state forever than the almost certain ICJ legal opinion that independence is illegal. You can really sense the fear in his comments.
This representative of Perfidious Albion makes me ashamed to be British. The British political class have sold out England to the EU, and now they are intent on destroying Serbia too. Tell them to get lost.
Mr. Wordsworth, (along with Munter), is truly a "spin doctor" who, by his words, is trying to promote his agenda of confusion, doubt, and threats. Of course the EU doesn't want a dissenting opinion of Kosovo's UDI- so let's threaten the Serbs some more by suspending ANY potential trade agreements. My confusion is that why would any Serb or Serb-representing politician succumb to these threats on our nationhood. Don't the Serbs want their own nation anymore? Do they simply want to obey their "EU Masters" and become a "zombie state"??? Listening to logic like Wordsworth's....this is what you'll get!
And as an aside, everyone and every nation makes mistakes. And it takes good and honest persons and good and honest nations to realize their mistakes and to make uncomfortable corrections to what is becoming more and more obvious that Kosovo's UDI was WRONG and so premature. As irreversible as politians would like you to believe, suspending or revoking recognitions is only as difficult as having a "little egg on your face", and correcting mistakes will only make you stronger and more respected among people and nations.
Vuk Jeremic categorically stated in last night's episode of BBC's Hard Talk that if ever posed with a choice between EU membership and retaining Kosovo as a Serbian province Serbia would say no to EU membership. I think this is a very interesting statement and I don't remember the foreign minister ever having been so explicit about this issue. You should write a report about this.
saying it constituted for "a direct challenge to the EU", that will "only make cooperation and Serbia's integration into the EU more difficult".
Agh, nothing new here just parroting what we already know about US/EU/K-Albanian gangster position on Kosovo
I think Serbia has found its way: it is a solid path. We don't have to join EU if the EU is blackmailing us over Kosovo. And as much as we would want this EU membership
to happen, our integrity comes first. That position is very m uch in the line with our history of the freedom and liberty (above everything) and therefore feels like a right thing to do.
We won't accept being blackmailed. That is a very mature position, and the only thing we have to do is to stick to it indefinitely.
I agree with Michael Thomas when he says being in the EU alone does not give you a western living standard. And like Matthew alluded to the EU seems to be moving the goal posts all the time.
All that means is Serbs need to work toward EU institutional standards, but at the same time keep their own foreign and domestic policy. The EU countries have far more respect for a Serbia that is strong and standing.
@village-bey "Borders will increasingly become less relevant thus, you do not need to place too much importance to border between Kosova and Serbia."
Serbia fell for that one twice already when Yugoslavia was formed. Once after WWI and then again when they made the different republics' boundaries after WWII.
If I read your comments correctly, the crux of your argument is that Serbia would do wise not to sue the countries that could make or break its EU membership because countries like the UK, Netherlands, etc. are the ones who call the shots, and that Serbia, if it wants to join a "democratic" club, better play by the rules.
So how then is a group of countries pressing Serbia to NOT pursue its legal right an example of democratic practice? Seems more to me like strongarming and hustling. If certain states keep Serbia out of the EU on account of BG taking them to the ICJ, regardless of the ruling, it's a clear example of might over reason.
Somehow I just don't see any EU member state barring Serbia on account of this, and if I'm wrong, the entire EU needs to be scrapped on account of a total failure in finding transnational consensus.
That is different. If Serbia does not want to enter than they can do whatever they want. However, 20 out of 27 EU nations support Kosova and have spent Billions to make it independent so why should they accept a nation (Serbia) that works against their goals?
For Serbs: EU or Kosovo and it should be a referendum so no one politician is branded as Brankovic.
I read from you something realistic though I do not agree with your deductions.
Kate, Peggy and Bmrusila,
Reading your comments it proves how impossible is to change the new REALITY in Kosova in favor of Serbia. Serbia either puts up with the new REALITY or shut up. A question for three of you. Will Serbia accept the opinion of ICJ should it say that Kosova's proclamation of independence is legitimate? Or will you say that the ICJ bowed to American pressure and Serbia will continue not to recognise Kosova?
That recognition of Kosovo will not be a condition sounds rather insincere. With some German diplomats saying the opposite, many people suggesting that the EU won't take up another conflict like Cyprus and every EU member having the right to put its own conditions this is at most a half truth.
A verdict from the ICJ will create exactly that what British and American politicians love so much: a new reality. It would put pressure on Kosovo to finally seek a compromise with Serbia. This would help Kosovo not alone with better relations with its neighbours; it might also force Kosovo to implement reforms like better and faster resolution of property conflicts.
So, mr. ambassador, that new reality may actually become a very good thing for Kosovo. If only you can hurry a bit in recognizing it...
Is this the last stand for Serbia?
What happened with the other arguments against independence?
Let me see if I can remember them.
Destabilisation of the region,,, No one seems to use that anymore, nonetheless things seem more stable than before. The other camp would suggest that the whole thing is put into a freezer for the time being but the evidence suggests that the region is moving on, towards a Euro-Atlantic future. The frozen conflict rhetoric plainly means that Serbia will not agree to recognise Kosova. Well no one is asking Serbia to do that.
A great deal of noise was made about the risk of Serbia’s nationalistic revival,,, well it seems to be dying out to me. Karadzic’s hairstyle might be back but that’s all. This part-time failed poet and full-time psychopath has become an embarrassment for the moderate majority in Serbia. His ideology of ethnic separation and territory acquisition by all means, is a thing of the past.
Pandora effect,,, apart from some desperate Russian attempt neither Pandora nor Leonora have made an appearance. South Odesia is well documented to be propagated and initiated by Russia. In effect, what Russians are doing is creating more trouble for themselves.
The only thing left is the talk about legality, which sometimes is linked to justice from a Serbian perspective.
Serb Allay made the suggestion that our Independence was a great injustice to Serbia. If you contextualise the issue of justice, you will see that justice is better served by an Independent Kosova.
A positive ICJ ruling in Serbia's favor will not revoke Kosovo's self-perceived sense of independence, nor will it force states that have recognized to revoke recognition.
However that's not the point. The point of taking this to the ICJ is to show that the EU is in legal and material breach of its powers, and such a decision to back the unilateral declaration of independence by a separatist group is illegal. It will also serve to greatly dissuade any other countries from recognizing Kosovo since they can now point to legal means for not doing so. Lastly, it gives Serbia a far greater position at the eventual negotiation table. An embarrassed EU will undoubtedly be forced to make a certain number of concessions over Kosovo in order to ensure stability.
All part of Tadic's new strategies on Kosovo. Who knows if it's going to work, but it's a far different tactic than the expected DSS type stonewalling.
2 days ago on a BBC Hardtalk interview with Stephen Sackur, Vuk Jeremic was asked a direct question along the lines of, "if the EU demands that you recognise Kosovo as independent as a condition of EU entry, you choose to enter the EU: yes or no?"
After going around the houses a few times by saying that EU will never place this condition in the way (some hope!), he said: no.
In other words, Jeremic has now confirmed one of two things:
1) he lies through his teeth,
2) DS/ZeS recent electionneering that entry to EU was their single most important goal was a lie.
The entire interview held some very, VERY interesting comments and views. Things that are VERY important for Serbia's future. Strange that Serbian media has not covered this interview, but is happy to repeat the nonsense of Markovic, Sutanovic, Nikolic, Kostunica et al.
ICJ consultation is the figleaf of DS's defending of Serbian sovereignty over Kosovo! They cannot drop it without admitting that they have dropped Kosovo! The only real legal way of defending Serbian sovereignty over the province would have been to sue individual countries who have recognized UDI in despite of international law. At least there would have been a binding ruling of the court!
1) Probably it's not the last stand, but an important stand for Serbs where they can only win. They would be foolish not to use it.
2) "Destabilization of the region" argument hard to prove or contradict. The time was to short. One is for sure, Kosovo has even more nurses and sometimes the more nurses, the easier is for the baby to get lost. I do not see any progress yet.
3) "The region moving towards Euro-Atlantic future" could be true, but it's not necessary a sign of progress. I am sure, there will be a significant pressure for military investments and corruption (see the SAAB "deal" and that they already approaching Serbia). Moving towards the "Euro" part is given, the problem is, that moving we expected to be completed by 1990, not 2020. 30 years were wasted just because JU was to big to digest as whole. But we do not know, what shape will be the EU in 2020. EU is of course quite an ugly thing, but anything else is even worse.
4) "Frozen Conflict" applies less to the Kosovo recognition by Serbia, it is more about Kosovo partition. Here it is the "new reality".
5) Serbia's nationalistic revival is an accomplished fact. Without Kosovo as it is, a small, rather insignificant fascistoid party would remain what it is and not become a what it is for people who are just patriotic (party #2).
6) The hair-style of Karadzic from 2000 till July 2008 was cooler than before and after!
7) I did not see any desperation on the Russian side. They were pretty calm. I do not know, what the game are they playing, all I know, they play game and they play for their own interest.
8) Your Independence is well-deserved and fine thing. You should be entitled gradually to many things like own militia, own representation, own constitution, own economy planing, own currency (and later to coin your own Euros with Kosovo-Albanian design). What you should not get is to be called that "own country" simply because it's history belongs to both ethnics elements. Kosovo is "your" country and "theirs" at the same time. Any artificial border will make many people mad.
The list what I write is longer and more extensive than what you would ever dream to get from the false "friends", but unfortunately there is no trust between you and Serbs, you chosen what seem to be easier for now, but it violates the mutuality, so it will be harder at the end.
You can argue that if I say, "Kosovo is 'your' country and 'theirs' at the same time", and that there shouldn't be a border between Serbia Proper and Kosovo - why is than the border between Kosovo and Albania? This would be the best argument. My answer is, that of course the border between Kosovo and Albania is completely artificial, too - and at the moment economical/social development of Albania and Serbia is on-pair, that border shouldn't exist regardless of Schengen.
Mike, u’ve got it wrong…
‘The point of taking this to the ICJ is to show that the EU is in legal and material breach of its powers, and such a decision to back the unilateral declaration of independence by a separatist group is illegal.’
…
‘An embarrassed EU will undoubtedly be forced to make a certain number of concessions over Kosovo in order to ensure stability.’
First, EU does not recognize states, member state of EU do.
and
Second, see the first, but add: member states vote YES/NO, who gets IN, and who stays OUT. And I don’t think UK, Netherlands, belgium and the rest would say YES if Serbia takes them to a court. Don’t think either the would make concessions, because they simply don’t care and have no reason to do so. It’s Serbia that want’s to join the club. But the club is only for democratic states, and if you don’t think the club is democratic, don’t beg so hard to get in.
"until some EU states recognize Kosovo, the EU cannot insist that Serbia does something of the kind".
In other words, yes they WILL make recognizing Kosovo a condition for EU membership. Its only a matter of time.
The Dutch have already said merely arresting Mladic and Karadzic is not enough, that Serbia needs to turn over more documents and cooperative witnesses.
70% of the Serbian population will NOT trade Kosovo for EU membership.
As much as I don’t like some of propaganda coming from the Nationalists at this time, I personally think they were right to want to ask for assurances that Serbia could join the EU without recognizing Kosovo. Had they stated their concerns in a rational manner, they might have been successful in getting their message across, instead they choose to use controversial and divisive language that only alienated moderates with valid questions about the EU.
Tadic was banking on his EU friends making it easier to join, but they just seem to be piling on the conditions now. I like Tadic very much, but he’s acting rather naïve right now.
SPS will have the distinction of having been in power when Kosovo was occupied, and when it was finally stolen by the EU. Their days as a functioning party will be over very soon. Once they serve no useful purpose to the big players, they will be discarded.
First, India and China smack down the EU/US carved out WTO deal. A oainful sign that they can no longer call the shots in this international fora. Then, the same countries are tired of US armtwisting in the UN, and have started their own.
Kosovo is now being used as an oportunity to show off diplomatic strength and international power, it is India anc China, against the US and the EU. The former won last time, and this time they have teamed up with bot Russia and Brazil, so I guess they will win again.
The EU and the Us has to acknowledge a new world order, and in that order, a credible international law that everyone has to follow is in their interest.
So they inevitably need Belgrade's consent on any lasting Kosovo "solution". That means, they have to come up with some real carrots that Belgrade will accept.
I am looking forward to see what hese carrots will be in the end, but hot candidates would include:
1. Partition of Kosovo
2. EU security guarantee for Serbian churches and monastries, with the right to sue the EU if they fail.
3. EU security guarantee for minorities in Kosovo, with ditto rights if they fail.
4. International prosecution of the current criminal leadership of Kosovo.
5. EU membership for Serbia
6. Free travel from Serbia to Kosovo, but not the other way around (Schengen vs non-Schengen).
7. A solid budget support programme for Belgrade.
8. Prosecution of non-Serb war criminals in ICTY
Dear Mr. Wordsworth,
it has been a while since UK acts on "behalf of US" in Europe... Even Kosovo deal was done firstly to secure US interests - in spite of many strong voices against that move in EU and Europe, and as usual- UK was "eager" to push through US plans. Serbia's stand in this matter is far more principled, then that of your country.
The question is - where is EU heading? In spite it's present apparent strength - EU (and Europe) will be less and less influential factor in world economy. I think it is widely believed that 21st century will be the century of Asia ( an not of EU). Apparent "athes tic" image that EU is trying to project to the outside world (and Kosovo experiment is part of that) is designed to attract population from very theistic non-European countries (because EU has a low birth rate). So natural question arises - how would EU look like after this experiments in lets say 50 years? Where will EU be then in the world scale?
Dear Ataman,
Nice to see you back on the ball again. I have missed your name-calling and primitive art analogies to the current Kosova leadership. If it’s any conciliation, I too wish for a swift change of the current people, probably more than you do.
Anyway, back to our nurses again.
1. If I was a betting man, I won’t bet on it.
2. You must admit that in comparison to old days we have witnessed progress. Previously we had whole periods were nearly 50,000 men were trying to pacify the Albanians. Bearing in mind our traditional dislike for the doctors/ nurses games and lasses in uniforms, I do believe the current buffer will become a permanent feature only in the minds of people, while we will witness the demilitarisation of Serbia too. I do agree that jury is still out on this one but by their own admission Serbian side do not see a military solution to this issue or to any other issues for that matter.
3. Euro Atlantic integration could be the ideal solution for Serbia too. That would mean no border with Kosova and you can take some comfort from the fact that Kosova needs to achieve European standards on minority rights to qualify for Stabilisation Association.
4. Good old partition. That would mean less problems for everyone but you are missing one small detail. It has never been on the table. If separation was part of a civilised agreement between the two sides, yes, maybe a deal might have been struck, but that’s hardly the case. Our partition has been painful and bloody.
Everyone has learned to respect realities on the ground. It doesn’t necessarily mean partition. As things stand, Kosova Serbs are in desperate need for an alternative to the current status quo. Serb insistence on partition has no sound bases as the Serbian side has constitutional guarantees on rights and matters of concern.
You insistence stems out from a self-conceived perception of Albanians, but that too will change with emancipation and time.
5. I did not say Serb nationalism was dead but not as strong as before. Maybe is still able to kick someone in the teeth but I am glad that this time around we are not on the receiving end.
6. I complexly agree although I do wonder how he managed to find the same barber after all this years.
7. I wish Russia all the best, no skin off my nose. I was only saying that the frightful prediction where after Kosova every separatist aspiration would materialise in armed revolts where proven wrong.
8. Your argument is valid but we need to contextualise it again. Ours and theirs division are salient derivates of a post war analysis. If we were to consider your take on this, the institutionalised position of BG against independence might not suit every Serb in Kosova. People will be reluctant to bring up a family in a self-excluded lawless place. As a result, you will have more single men of a dubious past replacing families. Doesn’t take a genius to see the long-term result of such population movement.
Your argument of borders still applies to your side. Borders will increasingly become less relevant thus, you do not need to place too much importance to border between Kosova and Serbia.
Kosovo doesn't not care about the decision of the court because Kosovo independence is Oxygen for stability and prosperity of the Kosovo itself and the Balkans as a whole.
ICJ, anyhow is just a joke. Regardless what outcome is natuarally is not bounding.
We have got used with Serbian hypocratical rhetoric who say that UNSC did not accept you thus you cannot be independent. I know even when we are accepted by the UNSC, not EVEN a year from today, Serbia WILL AGAIN say we dont care we will never accept you as an independent..
So why should Kosovars bother about Serbian affairs. We have all attributes of the state and been accepted from the cream-della-cream countries of the world.
just as the british occupation of India or other parts of the world has shown to be all but irreversible, even the temporary occupation of the southern serbian province is not irreversible.
at least a british official should know that... :)
The Serbian government can ask the ICJ for an opinion, but don't be surprised if the ICJ claims that it has no jurisdiction over the matter just like it refused to rule on the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999. They should expand the UN resolution to directly condemn Kosovo's UDI and the countries that recognized it and put it to a straight vote. They should also propose another resolution that gives the USA a December 31, 2008 deadline to accept the authority and rulings of the ICJ or the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty becomes null and void. Why should the USA be given the ability to arbitrarily threaten countries that have no nuclear weapons? If the USA refuses to obey international law, then its nuclear dominance should be removed.
Do all those who are in favor of the ICj opinion think what that opinion could be? Or they still imagine would be positive...
any analysis conducted first? What are the scenarios?
my prediction,if taken that is, ICK would say that it is not the competent body to rule on such a case, as it lays exclusively states' right to recognize another state or not. I don't know any state in the world to have STATE status given by ICJ.
That is different. If Serbia does not want to enter than they can do whatever they want. However, 20 out of 27 EU nations support Kosova and have spent Billions to make it independent so why should they accept a nation (Serbia) that works against their goals?
For Serbs: EU or Kosovo and it should be a referendum so no one politician is branded as Brankovic.
Is this the last stand for Serbia?
What happened with the other arguments against independence?
Let me see if I can remember them.
Destabilisation of the region,,, No one seems to use that anymore, nonetheless things seem more stable than before. The other camp would suggest that the whole thing is put into a freezer for the time being but the evidence suggests that the region is moving on, towards a Euro-Atlantic future. The frozen conflict rhetoric plainly means that Serbia will not agree to recognise Kosova. Well no one is asking Serbia to do that.
A great deal of noise was made about the risk of Serbia’s nationalistic revival,,, well it seems to be dying out to me. Karadzic’s hairstyle might be back but that’s all. This part-time failed poet and full-time psychopath has become an embarrassment for the moderate majority in Serbia. His ideology of ethnic separation and territory acquisition by all means, is a thing of the past.
Pandora effect,,, apart from some desperate Russian attempt neither Pandora nor Leonora have made an appearance. South Odesia is well documented to be propagated and initiated by Russia. In effect, what Russians are doing is creating more trouble for themselves.
The only thing left is the talk about legality, which sometimes is linked to justice from a Serbian perspective.
Serb Allay made the suggestion that our Independence was a great injustice to Serbia. If you contextualise the issue of justice, you will see that justice is better served by an Independent Kosova.
I read from you something realistic though I do not agree with your deductions.
Kate, Peggy and Bmrusila,
Reading your comments it proves how impossible is to change the new REALITY in Kosova in favor of Serbia. Serbia either puts up with the new REALITY or shut up. A question for three of you. Will Serbia accept the opinion of ICJ should it say that Kosova's proclamation of independence is legitimate? Or will you say that the ICJ bowed to American pressure and Serbia will continue not to recognise Kosova?
2 days ago on a BBC Hardtalk interview with Stephen Sackur, Vuk Jeremic was asked a direct question along the lines of, "if the EU demands that you recognise Kosovo as independent as a condition of EU entry, you choose to enter the EU: yes or no?"
After going around the houses a few times by saying that EU will never place this condition in the way (some hope!), he said: no.
In other words, Jeremic has now confirmed one of two things:
1) he lies through his teeth,
2) DS/ZeS recent electionneering that entry to EU was their single most important goal was a lie.
The entire interview held some very, VERY interesting comments and views. Things that are VERY important for Serbia's future. Strange that Serbian media has not covered this interview, but is happy to repeat the nonsense of Markovic, Sutanovic, Nikolic, Kostunica et al.
Dear Ataman,
Nice to see you back on the ball again. I have missed your name-calling and primitive art analogies to the current Kosova leadership. If it’s any conciliation, I too wish for a swift change of the current people, probably more than you do.
Anyway, back to our nurses again.
1. If I was a betting man, I won’t bet on it.
2. You must admit that in comparison to old days we have witnessed progress. Previously we had whole periods were nearly 50,000 men were trying to pacify the Albanians. Bearing in mind our traditional dislike for the doctors/ nurses games and lasses in uniforms, I do believe the current buffer will become a permanent feature only in the minds of people, while we will witness the demilitarisation of Serbia too. I do agree that jury is still out on this one but by their own admission Serbian side do not see a military solution to this issue or to any other issues for that matter.
3. Euro Atlantic integration could be the ideal solution for Serbia too. That would mean no border with Kosova and you can take some comfort from the fact that Kosova needs to achieve European standards on minority rights to qualify for Stabilisation Association.
4. Good old partition. That would mean less problems for everyone but you are missing one small detail. It has never been on the table. If separation was part of a civilised agreement between the two sides, yes, maybe a deal might have been struck, but that’s hardly the case. Our partition has been painful and bloody.
Everyone has learned to respect realities on the ground. It doesn’t necessarily mean partition. As things stand, Kosova Serbs are in desperate need for an alternative to the current status quo. Serb insistence on partition has no sound bases as the Serbian side has constitutional guarantees on rights and matters of concern.
You insistence stems out from a self-conceived perception of Albanians, but that too will change with emancipation and time.
5. I did not say Serb nationalism was dead but not as strong as before. Maybe is still able to kick someone in the teeth but I am glad that this time around we are not on the receiving end.
6. I complexly agree although I do wonder how he managed to find the same barber after all this years.
7. I wish Russia all the best, no skin off my nose. I was only saying that the frightful prediction where after Kosova every separatist aspiration would materialise in armed revolts where proven wrong.
8. Your argument is valid but we need to contextualise it again. Ours and theirs division are salient derivates of a post war analysis. If we were to consider your take on this, the institutionalised position of BG against independence might not suit every Serb in Kosova. People will be reluctant to bring up a family in a self-excluded lawless place. As a result, you will have more single men of a dubious past replacing families. Doesn’t take a genius to see the long-term result of such population movement.
Your argument of borders still applies to your side. Borders will increasingly become less relevant thus, you do not need to place too much importance to border between Kosova and Serbia.
Stephen Wordsworth!! your just like your bosses Brown & Bush TALKING NON-SENSE at all. What you did by taking kosovo is a grave injustice to the Serbian people.
Therefore SERBIA should proceed and get the opinion of the ICJ on september.
the EU is worried about getting egg on its face. Its blindly followed MR Bush on Kosovo independence. i bet Serbias intergration into the EU will be speeded up. I wounder if my country the UK will be so keen on Kosovo independence if Scotland vote to break away from the union? What would our goverment say if say Serbia was the first to recognise Scotland as an independent state.Mr. Wordsworth be careful what you wish for the EU is playing a dangerous game with allowing this little state independence.
This representative of Perfidious Albion makes me ashamed to be British. The British political class have sold out England to the EU, and now they are intent on destroying Serbia too. Tell them to get lost.
That recognition of Kosovo will not be a condition sounds rather insincere. With some German diplomats saying the opposite, many people suggesting that the EU won't take up another conflict like Cyprus and every EU member having the right to put its own conditions this is at most a half truth.
A verdict from the ICJ will create exactly that what British and American politicians love so much: a new reality. It would put pressure on Kosovo to finally seek a compromise with Serbia. This would help Kosovo not alone with better relations with its neighbours; it might also force Kosovo to implement reforms like better and faster resolution of property conflicts.
So, mr. ambassador, that new reality may actually become a very good thing for Kosovo. If only you can hurry a bit in recognizing it...
Mike, u’ve got it wrong…
‘The point of taking this to the ICJ is to show that the EU is in legal and material breach of its powers, and such a decision to back the unilateral declaration of independence by a separatist group is illegal.’
…
‘An embarrassed EU will undoubtedly be forced to make a certain number of concessions over Kosovo in order to ensure stability.’
First, EU does not recognize states, member state of EU do.
and
Second, see the first, but add: member states vote YES/NO, who gets IN, and who stays OUT. And I don’t think UK, Netherlands, belgium and the rest would say YES if Serbia takes them to a court. Don’t think either the would make concessions, because they simply don’t care and have no reason to do so. It’s Serbia that want’s to join the club. But the club is only for democratic states, and if you don’t think the club is democratic, don’t beg so hard to get in.
Mr. Wordsworth can you tell us why it is a mistake?
Why is it a mistake for Serbia to get a legal opinion of a court? Are you afraid of what that opinion will be so you have to now resort to threats?
If Serbia asks the court to give it's opinion what are you going to do? How is Serbia going to suffer because of this?
No Sir, you made a mistake a long time ago and now you are afraid of it coming to bite you.
"...saying it constituted for "a direct challenge to the EU"."
And what is wrong with that? If there is any true justice, that is exactly what will happen.
The EU as a body would need to recognise Kosovo to have any impact, and even then they would have to negotiate with the UN. Only the Security Council can alter the resolution under which Kosovo is run as a protectorate and recognised legally as a province of a sovereign territory.
It is interesting, how these "diplomats" do their best to undermine the democracy and progress of Serbia they allegedly demand from Serbia.
If you think, you doing right = why worry about some international courts?
If you think, international courts are biased = why demand Hague cooperation?
If you can't compose a single sentence using a simple logic = why seek a diplomatic carrier?
(at least I have an answer to the last question: $$$£££€€€)
After all the warnings and threats coming form the EU members due to our intention to ask ICJ for an opinion in regard to Kosovo’s IDU legality, I get the impression that it is right thing to do. If we fail to use all the legal means (even if that means never into EU), then we don’t deserve to be treated with the respect and should never be taken seriously on anything when it comes to foreign policy.
Besides, these threats only reveal the true face of the EU since it clearly shows that (even if member of the EU) Serbia would have no any right on her say and would be treated as a second class (if not third class) country with having no rights on own stand. Who needs the EU with this kind of colonial behaviour?
> Wordsworth also described Belgrade's announced initiative to have the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ... saying it constituted for "a direct challenge to the EU".
> The European Union, as an organization, cannot condition Serbia's membership with something it is not asking from its current members,
Looks like both of Mr Wordsworth's faces are talking at once.
On the one hand, he says that the EU cannot pre-condition Serbia's membership on the recognition of the K-albanian 'pseudo-state' because the EU itself has not recognised it - leaving the issue up to the individual membership.
And then on the other hand, he describes Serbia's upcoming case at the ICJ 'as a direct challenge' to the EU.
How can this be Mr Wordsworth, when the EU does not have a position with regard to the K-albanian 'pseudo-state'?
What you meant to say of course, is that Serbia's case is a direct challenge to the machinations of 'brussels' - which is dominated by the likes of the UK, Germany etc.
No need to worry about it Mr Wordsworth - that is if you think the ICJ will rule in favour of the UDI.
I really don't have faith in this government to pursue this matter in a competent manner. As it is so close to Solana and the boys I expect that when crunch time comes, it will do a U-turn and eventually say something like "We tried but failed".
Before the UN general assembly meeting, I would expect a push for another round of recognitions.
This matter should have been lodged with the ICJ from day one to discourage recognitions from the beginning as DSS wanted but delaying it has given the US sufficient time to arm twist many nations into recognition.
Wordsworth's comments can be explained by a favorite joke among diplomats, that their job is to tell you to go to hell and convince you its worth the visit. That he worries about the outcome of the ICJ referral shows that he and other pro-independence countries realize that independence does in fact violate international law. Nothing would stop further recognitions in their tracks than a decision by a majority of the General Assembly to refer it (big, democratic India's endorsement of this referral is a strong sign that we'll win a majority), and nothing would doom Kosovo's legitimacy as an independent state forever than the almost certain ICJ legal opinion that independence is illegal. You can really sense the fear in his comments.
Mr. Wordsworth, (along with Munter), is truly a "spin doctor" who, by his words, is trying to promote his agenda of confusion, doubt, and threats. Of course the EU doesn't want a dissenting opinion of Kosovo's UDI- so let's threaten the Serbs some more by suspending ANY potential trade agreements. My confusion is that why would any Serb or Serb-representing politician succumb to these threats on our nationhood. Don't the Serbs want their own nation anymore? Do they simply want to obey their "EU Masters" and become a "zombie state"??? Listening to logic like Wordsworth's....this is what you'll get!
And as an aside, everyone and every nation makes mistakes. And it takes good and honest persons and good and honest nations to realize their mistakes and to make uncomfortable corrections to what is becoming more and more obvious that Kosovo's UDI was WRONG and so premature. As irreversible as politians would like you to believe, suspending or revoking recognitions is only as difficult as having a "little egg on your face", and correcting mistakes will only make you stronger and more respected among people and nations.
A positive ICJ ruling in Serbia's favor will not revoke Kosovo's self-perceived sense of independence, nor will it force states that have recognized to revoke recognition.
However that's not the point. The point of taking this to the ICJ is to show that the EU is in legal and material breach of its powers, and such a decision to back the unilateral declaration of independence by a separatist group is illegal. It will also serve to greatly dissuade any other countries from recognizing Kosovo since they can now point to legal means for not doing so. Lastly, it gives Serbia a far greater position at the eventual negotiation table. An embarrassed EU will undoubtedly be forced to make a certain number of concessions over Kosovo in order to ensure stability.
All part of Tadic's new strategies on Kosovo. Who knows if it's going to work, but it's a far different tactic than the expected DSS type stonewalling.
Kosovo doesn't not care about the decision of the court because Kosovo independence is Oxygen for stability and prosperity of the Kosovo itself and the Balkans as a whole.
ICJ, anyhow is just a joke. Regardless what outcome is natuarally is not bounding.
We have got used with Serbian hypocratical rhetoric who say that UNSC did not accept you thus you cannot be independent. I know even when we are accepted by the UNSC, not EVEN a year from today, Serbia WILL AGAIN say we dont care we will never accept you as an independent..
So why should Kosovars bother about Serbian affairs. We have all attributes of the state and been accepted from the cream-della-cream countries of the world.
First, India and China smack down the EU/US carved out WTO deal. A oainful sign that they can no longer call the shots in this international fora. Then, the same countries are tired of US armtwisting in the UN, and have started their own.
Kosovo is now being used as an oportunity to show off diplomatic strength and international power, it is India anc China, against the US and the EU. The former won last time, and this time they have teamed up with bot Russia and Brazil, so I guess they will win again.
The EU and the Us has to acknowledge a new world order, and in that order, a credible international law that everyone has to follow is in their interest.
So they inevitably need Belgrade's consent on any lasting Kosovo "solution". That means, they have to come up with some real carrots that Belgrade will accept.
I am looking forward to see what hese carrots will be in the end, but hot candidates would include:
1. Partition of Kosovo
2. EU security guarantee for Serbian churches and monastries, with the right to sue the EU if they fail.
3. EU security guarantee for minorities in Kosovo, with ditto rights if they fail.
4. International prosecution of the current criminal leadership of Kosovo.
5. EU membership for Serbia
6. Free travel from Serbia to Kosovo, but not the other way around (Schengen vs non-Schengen).
7. A solid budget support programme for Belgrade.
8. Prosecution of non-Serb war criminals in ICTY
The economic success of countries like Germany, France and Great Britain has many causes most of which are due to the national characteristics of those nations. Membership of the EU is not a significant factor in any nation’s wealth. Bulgarians will not attain the living standards of Germans merely by joining the EU; to prosper they will need to work as hard as Germans and be as smart as Germans. Membership of the EU is a political ambition not an economic remedy for the financial problems of nations.
Serbia will not benefit financially from EU membership. They will most likely suffer financially as links with Russia and other non-EU countries will be severed or sabotaged by Brussels.
Politically EU membership would be a disaster for Serbia. Kosovo will be lost for ever, Raska will be given the Islamists in Bosnia, Vojvodina will be given “supervised independence” and what remains of Serbia will be carved up into autonomous regions. The Serbian army will be disbanded and Parliament will exist merely to rubber-stamp decisions handed down from Brussels, Berlin and London.
Serbia should sever all ties with the EU and build its own path the prosperity and security. There are no quick fixes for Serbia; it will take time, intelligence and hard work to make its rich and free.
ICJ consultation is the figleaf of DS's defending of Serbian sovereignty over Kosovo! They cannot drop it without admitting that they have dropped Kosovo! The only real legal way of defending Serbian sovereignty over the province would have been to sue individual countries who have recognized UDI in despite of international law. At least there would have been a binding ruling of the court!
Vuk Jeremic categorically stated in last night's episode of BBC's Hard Talk that if ever posed with a choice between EU membership and retaining Kosovo as a Serbian province Serbia would say no to EU membership. I think this is a very interesting statement and I don't remember the foreign minister ever having been so explicit about this issue. You should write a report about this.
Who are you defying by asking a court its legal opinion on a matter. Isn't that why courts are established so a matter between 2 or more parties can solve the situation peacefully and with no bias.
It seems that the ICJ is not The Hauge and will not make rulings that the west always likes. This is the same when about a week or two ago when someone in the French government told Serbia NOT to ask the courts opinion... this rhetoric raises from advice to demand.
In any case, the EU will get over it.. Serbia needs to keep pushing forward to a better society and a society that practices basic modern, democratic and European principals that most of the EU have forgotten.
I apologize to the EU if this ruling will make the United States and its followers look like fools... but justice must prevail.
saying it constituted for "a direct challenge to the EU", that will "only make cooperation and Serbia's integration into the EU more difficult".
Agh, nothing new here just parroting what we already know about US/EU/K-Albanian gangster position on Kosovo
I think Serbia has found its way: it is a solid path. We don't have to join EU if the EU is blackmailing us over Kosovo. And as much as we would want this EU membership
to happen, our integrity comes first. That position is very m uch in the line with our history of the freedom and liberty (above everything) and therefore feels like a right thing to do.
We won't accept being blackmailed. That is a very mature position, and the only thing we have to do is to stick to it indefinitely.
1) Probably it's not the last stand, but an important stand for Serbs where they can only win. They would be foolish not to use it.
2) "Destabilization of the region" argument hard to prove or contradict. The time was to short. One is for sure, Kosovo has even more nurses and sometimes the more nurses, the easier is for the baby to get lost. I do not see any progress yet.
3) "The region moving towards Euro-Atlantic future" could be true, but it's not necessary a sign of progress. I am sure, there will be a significant pressure for military investments and corruption (see the SAAB "deal" and that they already approaching Serbia). Moving towards the "Euro" part is given, the problem is, that moving we expected to be completed by 1990, not 2020. 30 years were wasted just because JU was to big to digest as whole. But we do not know, what shape will be the EU in 2020. EU is of course quite an ugly thing, but anything else is even worse.
4) "Frozen Conflict" applies less to the Kosovo recognition by Serbia, it is more about Kosovo partition. Here it is the "new reality".
5) Serbia's nationalistic revival is an accomplished fact. Without Kosovo as it is, a small, rather insignificant fascistoid party would remain what it is and not become a what it is for people who are just patriotic (party #2).
6) The hair-style of Karadzic from 2000 till July 2008 was cooler than before and after!
7) I did not see any desperation on the Russian side. They were pretty calm. I do not know, what the game are they playing, all I know, they play game and they play for their own interest.
8) Your Independence is well-deserved and fine thing. You should be entitled gradually to many things like own militia, own representation, own constitution, own economy planing, own currency (and later to coin your own Euros with Kosovo-Albanian design). What you should not get is to be called that "own country" simply because it's history belongs to both ethnics elements. Kosovo is "your" country and "theirs" at the same time. Any artificial border will make many people mad.
The list what I write is longer and more extensive than what you would ever dream to get from the false "friends", but unfortunately there is no trust between you and Serbs, you chosen what seem to be easier for now, but it violates the mutuality, so it will be harder at the end.
You can argue that if I say, "Kosovo is 'your' country and 'theirs' at the same time", and that there shouldn't be a border between Serbia Proper and Kosovo - why is than the border between Kosovo and Albania? This would be the best argument. My answer is, that of course the border between Kosovo and Albania is completely artificial, too - and at the moment economical/social development of Albania and Serbia is on-pair, that border shouldn't exist regardless of Schengen.
Do all those who are in favor of the ICj opinion think what that opinion could be? Or they still imagine would be positive...
any analysis conducted first? What are the scenarios?
my prediction,if taken that is, ICK would say that it is not the competent body to rule on such a case, as it lays exclusively states' right to recognize another state or not. I don't know any state in the world to have STATE status given by ICJ.
"until some EU states recognize Kosovo, the EU cannot insist that Serbia does something of the kind".
In other words, yes they WILL make recognizing Kosovo a condition for EU membership. Its only a matter of time.
The Dutch have already said merely arresting Mladic and Karadzic is not enough, that Serbia needs to turn over more documents and cooperative witnesses.
70% of the Serbian population will NOT trade Kosovo for EU membership.
As much as I don’t like some of propaganda coming from the Nationalists at this time, I personally think they were right to want to ask for assurances that Serbia could join the EU without recognizing Kosovo. Had they stated their concerns in a rational manner, they might have been successful in getting their message across, instead they choose to use controversial and divisive language that only alienated moderates with valid questions about the EU.
Tadic was banking on his EU friends making it easier to join, but they just seem to be piling on the conditions now. I like Tadic very much, but he’s acting rather naïve right now.
SPS will have the distinction of having been in power when Kosovo was occupied, and when it was finally stolen by the EU. Their days as a functioning party will be over very soon. Once they serve no useful purpose to the big players, they will be discarded.
If I read your comments correctly, the crux of your argument is that Serbia would do wise not to sue the countries that could make or break its EU membership because countries like the UK, Netherlands, etc. are the ones who call the shots, and that Serbia, if it wants to join a "democratic" club, better play by the rules.
So how then is a group of countries pressing Serbia to NOT pursue its legal right an example of democratic practice? Seems more to me like strongarming and hustling. If certain states keep Serbia out of the EU on account of BG taking them to the ICJ, regardless of the ruling, it's a clear example of might over reason.
Somehow I just don't see any EU member state barring Serbia on account of this, and if I'm wrong, the entire EU needs to be scrapped on account of a total failure in finding transnational consensus.
The Serbian government can ask the ICJ for an opinion, but don't be surprised if the ICJ claims that it has no jurisdiction over the matter just like it refused to rule on the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999. They should expand the UN resolution to directly condemn Kosovo's UDI and the countries that recognized it and put it to a straight vote. They should also propose another resolution that gives the USA a December 31, 2008 deadline to accept the authority and rulings of the ICJ or the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty becomes null and void. Why should the USA be given the ability to arbitrarily threaten countries that have no nuclear weapons? If the USA refuses to obey international law, then its nuclear dominance should be removed.
I agree with Michael Thomas when he says being in the EU alone does not give you a western living standard. And like Matthew alluded to the EU seems to be moving the goal posts all the time.
All that means is Serbs need to work toward EU institutional standards, but at the same time keep their own foreign and domestic policy. The EU countries have far more respect for a Serbia that is strong and standing.
@village-bey "Borders will increasingly become less relevant thus, you do not need to place too much importance to border between Kosova and Serbia."
Serbia fell for that one twice already when Yugoslavia was formed. Once after WWI and then again when they made the different republics' boundaries after WWII.
Dear Mr. Wordsworth,
it has been a while since UK acts on "behalf of US" in Europe... Even Kosovo deal was done firstly to secure US interests - in spite of many strong voices against that move in EU and Europe, and as usual- UK was "eager" to push through US plans. Serbia's stand in this matter is far more principled, then that of your country.
The question is - where is EU heading? In spite it's present apparent strength - EU (and Europe) will be less and less influential factor in world economy. I think it is widely believed that 21st century will be the century of Asia ( an not of EU). Apparent "athes tic" image that EU is trying to project to the outside world (and Kosovo experiment is part of that) is designed to attract population from very theistic non-European countries (because EU has a low birth rate). So natural question arises - how would EU look like after this experiments in lets say 50 years? Where will EU be then in the world scale?
just as the british occupation of India or other parts of the world has shown to be all but irreversible, even the temporary occupation of the southern serbian province is not irreversible.
at least a british official should know that... :)
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