18

Friday, 25.07.2008.

10:37

"Karadžić owes USD 4.5bn to victims"

Radovan Karadžić owes USD 4.5bn that victims of the war in Bosnia received in civil suits before U.S. courts.

Izvor: Zelimir Zilnik

"Karadžiæ owes USD 4.5bn to victims" IMAGE SOURCE
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18 Komentari

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Matthew

pre 15 godina

Ida,

I will take more care to document the destruction, as you are correct of course, and I travel there nearly every year. It is a wasteland. I have some photo’s but they are more of the family nature and not of the damage. I think it could be safe to take pictures since most of these areas seem uninhabited. However, because of my last name, I have been hassled at times by figures in authority in Croatia.

“most of the victims DO NOT talk about what they suffered.”

This is most likely a result of the one-sided demonization of the crimes committed. It’s unfortunate that the Serbian victims are often ignored and the crimes against them justified. It’s very hard for them and hopefully in time this will change. Without that, true reconciliation will be difficult if not impossible.

“Was this very recently that it happened? Was the courtroom in Zagreb? Does he know the names of the Croat officials who were there?”

Let’s just say it happened since the wars in the 90’s, so somewhat recently. I will not go into specific details at this time since my cousin still lives in Croatia with his family and one of the men who did this is now a police chief. So yes, he knows exactly who did this. I will say it was a Croatian who made the call that saved his life, so there are heroes on both sides. The culprits did spend two weeks in jail for it, but that’s nothing compared to the gravity of the crime. Obviously, this is the first time I’ve mentioned this in a public forum out of concerns for his safety. I would be willing to discuss this more in detail in a private setting. I apologize for that, the truth does need to come out. However it’d be far too easy to identify who he is with any additional information.

ida

pre 15 godina

"My wife was only 16 when Operation Storm happened, she doesn’t talk about it, but she has nightmares. You can imagine the trauma she endured."

There was an American woman who was in Croatia DURING the war working for the UN and she witnessed the crimes against Serbs and said that most of the victims DO NOT talk about what they suffered. Very different than the pushed propaganda of the Bosnian Muslims and others where they are always doing stunts and going on with their atrocity tales with no proof.

"My brother in law has moved back to his village, but it’s full of swastika’s and Ustashe graffiti and not many have returned. I’ve been to Krajina numerous times."

Has he or can he take photos of the swastikas and damage? Can you do so? It seems like a record of doing this and putting it up on the web would be helpful. There's very few pictures of Krajina and the destruction wrought on the internet but those who've been through it say it's a wasteland and the image of true ethnic cleansing and genocide. Is it dangerous to take photos, with camera or camera phone, or videos? Why have you or other Serb visitors done more documentation and made it available for reference?

"My cousin (on my father’s side) had the audacity to sue some Ustashe in the courts in Croatia for wrongful death, he’s in his 80’s, yet he was thrown to the ground and had a gun put to his head in the middle of the courtroom. He was almost murdered right then and there."

Was this very recently that it happened? Was the courtroom in Zagreb? Does he know the names of the Croat officials who were there?

Matthew

pre 15 godina

Ataman,

You may very well prove to be correct, however, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. He claims to be for the victims and against nationalism and racism. Maybe I’m just naïve (I often am), but I take people for what they claim unless they prove otherwise. I will give him a chance. We will see how he responds.

As far as Village-Bey goes, that dude seriously rocks. Obviously we don’t agree on many issues, but his sense of humor is awesome, he’s an interesting intelligent guy and he stands up for his position without being offensive. I would be proud to have someone like him as a friend. He definitely adds a positive influence on the discussion in many ways. There are a number of Albanians that post here who have my deep respect but they often get drowned out by some of the more extremist Albanians. Of course there are extremists on both sides of the discussion here on B92.

“I know many people from Israel who make a strong parallel between their struggle and the one of Serbs.” The above mentioned Jonathan Levy is just such a person. I have deep respect in his struggle against the Vatican’s actions during WWII. He is a very brave and courageous man as well. Any Serbs who lost property because of the Ustashe in WWII should contact him.

bmrusila

pre 15 godina

Ataman

-It could be that Roberto was her supervisor who established the hypothesis “Evil Serbs” by just being fed by the CNN news while seating in his comfortable chair. :-)))

Or, he just likes to play the role of “objective” researcher but ended up as researcher dilettante.

Ataman

pre 15 godina

Matthew,

I would be very pleasantly surprised if I would see from Roberto what you expect - see my long rambling why. But who knows. Otherwise all respect to your cousin.

Matthew

pre 15 godina

Marko,

I have an idea what happened in Krajina. My wife was only 16 when Operation Storm happened, she doesn’t talk about it, but she has nightmares. You can imagine the trauma she endured. My brother in law has moved back to his village, but it’s full of swastika’s and Ustashe graffiti and not many have returned. I’ve been to Krajina numerous times. I lived in RS for a while.

My cousin (on my father’s side) had the audacity to sue some Ustashe in the courts in Croatia for wrongful death, he’s in his 80’s, yet he was thrown to the ground and had a gun put to his head in the middle of the courtroom. He was almost murdered right then and there. He’s a very brave man and I admire his courage greatly.

I personally find the idea of filing a lawsuit in the US a reasonable and safe choice.

Despite Roberto’s vehemence against the few Serbs that did commit crimes, I am sure he would support a Serbian suing some of the main players in Croatia. A victim is a victim after all.

Sounds like the kind of case Jonathan Levy would be interested in. He’s already going after the Vatican’s Ustashe gold stash.

Marko, @ The Angry Mob

pre 15 godina

@ Roberto.

You say you have been in our country but you still can't spell KOSOVO properly. To all KOSOVO is with an O at the end.

Good day to everybody.

Ataman

pre 15 godina

The comments of Roberto are not just one-sided but usually full of anti-Serb poison. So far I did no see a single comment from him being even slightly positive towards Serbia. This is a "feat" most of Serbian gang did not achieve against Albanians and I recall, some Albanians like "Village-Bey" did not achieve against Serbs. I cannot call Roberto being even remotely a "moderate" (unlike Village-Bey who IMO has a terrific sense of humor)

Few observations:

#1: Officially the place (who supports the separatists say "country") is called "KosovO". I understand if Albanians are calling it KosovA - that's their tradition and language. I wonder, why someone who is not Albanian does the same. Maybe he wants to be more catholic than the Pope? Regardless, what is the answer, we all can agree - Roberto included - he should not pretend even remotely to be objective. "KosovO" could be anything, but "KosovA" means: "I am firmly on Albo side, no matter what".

#2: Roberto wrote: "i have spent a great deal of time in the balkans, including bosnia, serbia, kosova, macedonia... and we've conducted scores of interviews, formally, and many more informally"

That means, Roberto just provided the proof: American interviewers biased to THAT degree are / were conducting interviews in West Balkans. We assume, they are probably presenting material to the American public... I can imagine, how "unbiased" is the picture they paint about Serbia.

#3: Let's think a bit further. I am glad, someone (Roberto at a later time writes "we" - who are these "we"?) did that kind of job on their own. I am sure, they were on vacation in Jugoslavija, paying for hotels, meals, transportation, technical equipment, logistics out of their own pocket. They are probably just had a mere luck to speak with Svetlana Broz meeting her by accident in Sarajevo. ;-)

Or not? Who paid for that? Probably not the government of the U.S. directly, just some "non-profit" organization. At least, as usual, "non-profit on the paper". I am sure Roberto and his team had a much more decent budget than we ever had. But I am not sure, they actually did see and understand more than we (or Mike who lived in BG). And I am sure, they had a certain "mission to accomplish" (sorry to be poisonous but since you mentioned Bush and Iraq...OK, sorry, for poison)

#4: There is one important sentence where I agree with Roberto (and of course, with Svetlana Broz) - it's about the nationalists:

"They are my natural opponents, it is completely natural that we are on opposing sides." and so with me.

But I see here some contradiction. I see the strongest outbursts of nationalism, sometimes with fascist/nazi-like coloring coming from Albanian posters. There was NOT A SINGLE SIGN, Roberto would be against. Just to the contrary: in many cases he did pour more fuel.

If he claims, that nationalists are on opposing side, he should stick with his words...

#5: I by no means have any reservation against Zionism. You call yourself a moderate Zionist. Nothing wrong with that. But we should call the game by it's name. According the wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

"Described as a "diaspora nationalism," its proponents regard it as a national liberation movement whose aim is the self-determination of the Jewish people."

Which is - again - absolutely fine with me. But please read carefully: "diaspora NATIONALISM,"

That means you are on opposing side with yourself? I think, of course not. IMO you just try to beautify your bias here.

Defending the American Jewry I have to say: after "humanitarian bombing" most of it esp. the ones with Russian or East/Central European roots univocally are in support of Serbia. Further, I know many people from Israel who make a strong parallel between their struggle and the one of Serbs. But it seems, there is always an exception...


Let's do a little test, Roberto. Buy a small gift, say, a... piece of some Native American jewelry, nothing really expensive, in the value of $10-$20. Pack it well and send it by USPS EMS service to any of your Serbian friends (if you have any!), paying on-line. USPS has a web site, you can do it. And see what happens... I will tell you: your package will return to you in few days. In few more days a friendly voice from USPS administration will call you from their center in Washington, DC and explain: you can't send any EMS mail into "such dangerous, bad country like Serbia". Happened with me! I was mad like hell and asked the lady, how she knows, it's a "dangerous, bad country". She told me, she never was there, has no idea what it is, but she was told by her supervisors to say that.

So "tanks" for your interviews.

roberto

pre 15 godina

Wow -- so nice to know that people are reading my comments... when they stop reading, that's when i suppose i need to worry.

actually i have spent a great deal of time in the balkans, including bosnia, serbia, kosova, macedonia... and we've conducted scores of interviews, formally, and many more informally. including a # of extreme nationalists, so such comments are nothing new for me.

anyway, i do NOT represent the US govt., and have never claimed to. sometimes i support them, often i don't, esp. w/bush in office and their war in iraq. we are free here to comment and protest about US policies, and any other policies we FEEL like discussing. i do not live in russia or nazi germany, thank god. i did not grow up in communism or fascism, thank god. the us govt is surely im-perfect, but the western democracies are heaven on earth compared to some of the points of view i see in this forum.

b-92 is NOT just a forum for serbs, or to be more precise, not just a forum for "nice" serb diaspora. you do not own it, and you will NOT intimidate me or any other person here, including other serbs. your beloved milosevic is dead!, your beloved karadzic is imprisoned, your beloved mladic is soon to be imprisoned, your beloved sesejl will never be free again to terrorize people, serb or otherwise. and you have lost "your" beloved kosova. so don't even try your tricks with me, don't even try!

i feel the same way as svetlana broz, who unlike her famous gr. father, is not a communist. how do you deal with all the nationalists? i asked her. with all of the criticism against you?

"They are my natural opponents, it is completely natural that we are on opposing sides." and so with me.

i do not judge people by color or ethnicity, which is racist. i do judge them by their values, or lack thereof.

thank you.

roberto-frisco

ida

pre 15 godina

"the worse of all is this guy called Roberto from the US"

I kind of think Roberta has been in the Balkans with his associations with Otpor. He is a non-Serb Jewish American but sticks his nose to meddle with Serbian traitors and non-Serbs. He is the type that spreads all the lying exaggerated anti-Serb propaganda while getting all crabby if crimes against Serbs are mentioned. He's very for the Balkan Muslims and their permanent ethnic cleansing of Serbs and the theft of Serbian property and land.

Marko

pre 15 godina

B92, perhaps some fact checking would be helpful; namely 4 million is not 4 billion.
Further what the article fails to mention is that Karadizic was noted in default a very long time ago and the time to collect on Judgments has likely expired.

Having his belonging seized is the least of his worries as he faces the court that freed Oric.

Marko @ Tha Angry Mob

pre 15 godina

@ matthew,

if she's your wife you should know by now what happened in Krajina.

Now I really had enough of these cowboys ops americans who come here express their comments, the worse of all is this guy called Roberto from the US, they have never been to Serbia yet they have to illuminate us with their thoughts. I don't comment on US matters because I don't care, I'm not from there.

Matthew

pre 15 godina

bmrusila,

That's a very good idea. I'm going to look into that since my wife lives here in the states and is from the Krajina area.

Marko @ The Angry Mob

pre 15 godina

I wonder how many Dollars the West owes us for the bombing in 99. Just because some albanian stole someone else property.

ZK UK

pre 15 godina

Karadžić, who was represented by Ramsey Clark, participated in the case until 1997, but later stopped attending hearings. In September 2000, a jury found him guilty of the said crimes, and ordered him to pay compensation of USD 4.5mn to the victims.
--
Sure this trial was a sham but to even admit he was unrepresented - that goes beyond belief!

bmrusila

pre 15 godina

Interesting indeed. I also recommend Serbian victims to go to the USA and sue the well known commanders of Bosnia and Croatia responsible for the tragedy of Serbian victims. They can be prosecuted and have “fair” trial where I expect the verdict would be guilty. Serbs were tortured too, Serbian women raped as well, they were exterminated from certain areas in Bosnia and not to mention Croatia that ethnically cleansed all the areas inhabited by the Serbs. I think Krajina is enough to be mentioned. Serbian victims must be compensated too, at least symbolically. No, I do not feel sorry Karadzic and possibility of the confiscation of his property but I just feel that this is one farce more and once again selective justice, justice only for non-Serbs. Justice yes, but justice for all dear gentlemen.

kufr

pre 15 godina

"Those cases expanded the use of the Alien Tort Statute of 1789, which allows foreigners to bring suits for breaches of human rights committed anywhere in the world before U.S. courts."

So I expect a lot of cases coming in from Guantanamo soon...

bmrusila

pre 15 godina

Interesting indeed. I also recommend Serbian victims to go to the USA and sue the well known commanders of Bosnia and Croatia responsible for the tragedy of Serbian victims. They can be prosecuted and have “fair” trial where I expect the verdict would be guilty. Serbs were tortured too, Serbian women raped as well, they were exterminated from certain areas in Bosnia and not to mention Croatia that ethnically cleansed all the areas inhabited by the Serbs. I think Krajina is enough to be mentioned. Serbian victims must be compensated too, at least symbolically. No, I do not feel sorry Karadzic and possibility of the confiscation of his property but I just feel that this is one farce more and once again selective justice, justice only for non-Serbs. Justice yes, but justice for all dear gentlemen.

kufr

pre 15 godina

"Those cases expanded the use of the Alien Tort Statute of 1789, which allows foreigners to bring suits for breaches of human rights committed anywhere in the world before U.S. courts."

So I expect a lot of cases coming in from Guantanamo soon...

Marko @ The Angry Mob

pre 15 godina

I wonder how many Dollars the West owes us for the bombing in 99. Just because some albanian stole someone else property.

ZK UK

pre 15 godina

Karadžić, who was represented by Ramsey Clark, participated in the case until 1997, but later stopped attending hearings. In September 2000, a jury found him guilty of the said crimes, and ordered him to pay compensation of USD 4.5mn to the victims.
--
Sure this trial was a sham but to even admit he was unrepresented - that goes beyond belief!

Marko @ Tha Angry Mob

pre 15 godina

@ matthew,

if she's your wife you should know by now what happened in Krajina.

Now I really had enough of these cowboys ops americans who come here express their comments, the worse of all is this guy called Roberto from the US, they have never been to Serbia yet they have to illuminate us with their thoughts. I don't comment on US matters because I don't care, I'm not from there.

Matthew

pre 15 godina

Marko,

I have an idea what happened in Krajina. My wife was only 16 when Operation Storm happened, she doesn’t talk about it, but she has nightmares. You can imagine the trauma she endured. My brother in law has moved back to his village, but it’s full of swastika’s and Ustashe graffiti and not many have returned. I’ve been to Krajina numerous times. I lived in RS for a while.

My cousin (on my father’s side) had the audacity to sue some Ustashe in the courts in Croatia for wrongful death, he’s in his 80’s, yet he was thrown to the ground and had a gun put to his head in the middle of the courtroom. He was almost murdered right then and there. He’s a very brave man and I admire his courage greatly.

I personally find the idea of filing a lawsuit in the US a reasonable and safe choice.

Despite Roberto’s vehemence against the few Serbs that did commit crimes, I am sure he would support a Serbian suing some of the main players in Croatia. A victim is a victim after all.

Sounds like the kind of case Jonathan Levy would be interested in. He’s already going after the Vatican’s Ustashe gold stash.

Matthew

pre 15 godina

bmrusila,

That's a very good idea. I'm going to look into that since my wife lives here in the states and is from the Krajina area.

Marko

pre 15 godina

B92, perhaps some fact checking would be helpful; namely 4 million is not 4 billion.
Further what the article fails to mention is that Karadizic was noted in default a very long time ago and the time to collect on Judgments has likely expired.

Having his belonging seized is the least of his worries as he faces the court that freed Oric.

Marko, @ The Angry Mob

pre 15 godina

@ Roberto.

You say you have been in our country but you still can't spell KOSOVO properly. To all KOSOVO is with an O at the end.

Good day to everybody.

ida

pre 15 godina

"the worse of all is this guy called Roberto from the US"

I kind of think Roberta has been in the Balkans with his associations with Otpor. He is a non-Serb Jewish American but sticks his nose to meddle with Serbian traitors and non-Serbs. He is the type that spreads all the lying exaggerated anti-Serb propaganda while getting all crabby if crimes against Serbs are mentioned. He's very for the Balkan Muslims and their permanent ethnic cleansing of Serbs and the theft of Serbian property and land.

Ataman

pre 15 godina

The comments of Roberto are not just one-sided but usually full of anti-Serb poison. So far I did no see a single comment from him being even slightly positive towards Serbia. This is a "feat" most of Serbian gang did not achieve against Albanians and I recall, some Albanians like "Village-Bey" did not achieve against Serbs. I cannot call Roberto being even remotely a "moderate" (unlike Village-Bey who IMO has a terrific sense of humor)

Few observations:

#1: Officially the place (who supports the separatists say "country") is called "KosovO". I understand if Albanians are calling it KosovA - that's their tradition and language. I wonder, why someone who is not Albanian does the same. Maybe he wants to be more catholic than the Pope? Regardless, what is the answer, we all can agree - Roberto included - he should not pretend even remotely to be objective. "KosovO" could be anything, but "KosovA" means: "I am firmly on Albo side, no matter what".

#2: Roberto wrote: "i have spent a great deal of time in the balkans, including bosnia, serbia, kosova, macedonia... and we've conducted scores of interviews, formally, and many more informally"

That means, Roberto just provided the proof: American interviewers biased to THAT degree are / were conducting interviews in West Balkans. We assume, they are probably presenting material to the American public... I can imagine, how "unbiased" is the picture they paint about Serbia.

#3: Let's think a bit further. I am glad, someone (Roberto at a later time writes "we" - who are these "we"?) did that kind of job on their own. I am sure, they were on vacation in Jugoslavija, paying for hotels, meals, transportation, technical equipment, logistics out of their own pocket. They are probably just had a mere luck to speak with Svetlana Broz meeting her by accident in Sarajevo. ;-)

Or not? Who paid for that? Probably not the government of the U.S. directly, just some "non-profit" organization. At least, as usual, "non-profit on the paper". I am sure Roberto and his team had a much more decent budget than we ever had. But I am not sure, they actually did see and understand more than we (or Mike who lived in BG). And I am sure, they had a certain "mission to accomplish" (sorry to be poisonous but since you mentioned Bush and Iraq...OK, sorry, for poison)

#4: There is one important sentence where I agree with Roberto (and of course, with Svetlana Broz) - it's about the nationalists:

"They are my natural opponents, it is completely natural that we are on opposing sides." and so with me.

But I see here some contradiction. I see the strongest outbursts of nationalism, sometimes with fascist/nazi-like coloring coming from Albanian posters. There was NOT A SINGLE SIGN, Roberto would be against. Just to the contrary: in many cases he did pour more fuel.

If he claims, that nationalists are on opposing side, he should stick with his words...

#5: I by no means have any reservation against Zionism. You call yourself a moderate Zionist. Nothing wrong with that. But we should call the game by it's name. According the wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

"Described as a "diaspora nationalism," its proponents regard it as a national liberation movement whose aim is the self-determination of the Jewish people."

Which is - again - absolutely fine with me. But please read carefully: "diaspora NATIONALISM,"

That means you are on opposing side with yourself? I think, of course not. IMO you just try to beautify your bias here.

Defending the American Jewry I have to say: after "humanitarian bombing" most of it esp. the ones with Russian or East/Central European roots univocally are in support of Serbia. Further, I know many people from Israel who make a strong parallel between their struggle and the one of Serbs. But it seems, there is always an exception...


Let's do a little test, Roberto. Buy a small gift, say, a... piece of some Native American jewelry, nothing really expensive, in the value of $10-$20. Pack it well and send it by USPS EMS service to any of your Serbian friends (if you have any!), paying on-line. USPS has a web site, you can do it. And see what happens... I will tell you: your package will return to you in few days. In few more days a friendly voice from USPS administration will call you from their center in Washington, DC and explain: you can't send any EMS mail into "such dangerous, bad country like Serbia". Happened with me! I was mad like hell and asked the lady, how she knows, it's a "dangerous, bad country". She told me, she never was there, has no idea what it is, but she was told by her supervisors to say that.

So "tanks" for your interviews.

Ataman

pre 15 godina

Matthew,

I would be very pleasantly surprised if I would see from Roberto what you expect - see my long rambling why. But who knows. Otherwise all respect to your cousin.

ida

pre 15 godina

"My wife was only 16 when Operation Storm happened, she doesn’t talk about it, but she has nightmares. You can imagine the trauma she endured."

There was an American woman who was in Croatia DURING the war working for the UN and she witnessed the crimes against Serbs and said that most of the victims DO NOT talk about what they suffered. Very different than the pushed propaganda of the Bosnian Muslims and others where they are always doing stunts and going on with their atrocity tales with no proof.

"My brother in law has moved back to his village, but it’s full of swastika’s and Ustashe graffiti and not many have returned. I’ve been to Krajina numerous times."

Has he or can he take photos of the swastikas and damage? Can you do so? It seems like a record of doing this and putting it up on the web would be helpful. There's very few pictures of Krajina and the destruction wrought on the internet but those who've been through it say it's a wasteland and the image of true ethnic cleansing and genocide. Is it dangerous to take photos, with camera or camera phone, or videos? Why have you or other Serb visitors done more documentation and made it available for reference?

"My cousin (on my father’s side) had the audacity to sue some Ustashe in the courts in Croatia for wrongful death, he’s in his 80’s, yet he was thrown to the ground and had a gun put to his head in the middle of the courtroom. He was almost murdered right then and there."

Was this very recently that it happened? Was the courtroom in Zagreb? Does he know the names of the Croat officials who were there?

Matthew

pre 15 godina

Ataman,

You may very well prove to be correct, however, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. He claims to be for the victims and against nationalism and racism. Maybe I’m just naïve (I often am), but I take people for what they claim unless they prove otherwise. I will give him a chance. We will see how he responds.

As far as Village-Bey goes, that dude seriously rocks. Obviously we don’t agree on many issues, but his sense of humor is awesome, he’s an interesting intelligent guy and he stands up for his position without being offensive. I would be proud to have someone like him as a friend. He definitely adds a positive influence on the discussion in many ways. There are a number of Albanians that post here who have my deep respect but they often get drowned out by some of the more extremist Albanians. Of course there are extremists on both sides of the discussion here on B92.

“I know many people from Israel who make a strong parallel between their struggle and the one of Serbs.” The above mentioned Jonathan Levy is just such a person. I have deep respect in his struggle against the Vatican’s actions during WWII. He is a very brave and courageous man as well. Any Serbs who lost property because of the Ustashe in WWII should contact him.

Matthew

pre 15 godina

Ida,

I will take more care to document the destruction, as you are correct of course, and I travel there nearly every year. It is a wasteland. I have some photo’s but they are more of the family nature and not of the damage. I think it could be safe to take pictures since most of these areas seem uninhabited. However, because of my last name, I have been hassled at times by figures in authority in Croatia.

“most of the victims DO NOT talk about what they suffered.”

This is most likely a result of the one-sided demonization of the crimes committed. It’s unfortunate that the Serbian victims are often ignored and the crimes against them justified. It’s very hard for them and hopefully in time this will change. Without that, true reconciliation will be difficult if not impossible.

“Was this very recently that it happened? Was the courtroom in Zagreb? Does he know the names of the Croat officials who were there?”

Let’s just say it happened since the wars in the 90’s, so somewhat recently. I will not go into specific details at this time since my cousin still lives in Croatia with his family and one of the men who did this is now a police chief. So yes, he knows exactly who did this. I will say it was a Croatian who made the call that saved his life, so there are heroes on both sides. The culprits did spend two weeks in jail for it, but that’s nothing compared to the gravity of the crime. Obviously, this is the first time I’ve mentioned this in a public forum out of concerns for his safety. I would be willing to discuss this more in detail in a private setting. I apologize for that, the truth does need to come out. However it’d be far too easy to identify who he is with any additional information.

roberto

pre 15 godina

Wow -- so nice to know that people are reading my comments... when they stop reading, that's when i suppose i need to worry.

actually i have spent a great deal of time in the balkans, including bosnia, serbia, kosova, macedonia... and we've conducted scores of interviews, formally, and many more informally. including a # of extreme nationalists, so such comments are nothing new for me.

anyway, i do NOT represent the US govt., and have never claimed to. sometimes i support them, often i don't, esp. w/bush in office and their war in iraq. we are free here to comment and protest about US policies, and any other policies we FEEL like discussing. i do not live in russia or nazi germany, thank god. i did not grow up in communism or fascism, thank god. the us govt is surely im-perfect, but the western democracies are heaven on earth compared to some of the points of view i see in this forum.

b-92 is NOT just a forum for serbs, or to be more precise, not just a forum for "nice" serb diaspora. you do not own it, and you will NOT intimidate me or any other person here, including other serbs. your beloved milosevic is dead!, your beloved karadzic is imprisoned, your beloved mladic is soon to be imprisoned, your beloved sesejl will never be free again to terrorize people, serb or otherwise. and you have lost "your" beloved kosova. so don't even try your tricks with me, don't even try!

i feel the same way as svetlana broz, who unlike her famous gr. father, is not a communist. how do you deal with all the nationalists? i asked her. with all of the criticism against you?

"They are my natural opponents, it is completely natural that we are on opposing sides." and so with me.

i do not judge people by color or ethnicity, which is racist. i do judge them by their values, or lack thereof.

thank you.

roberto-frisco

bmrusila

pre 15 godina

Ataman

-It could be that Roberto was her supervisor who established the hypothesis “Evil Serbs” by just being fed by the CNN news while seating in his comfortable chair. :-)))

Or, he just likes to play the role of “objective” researcher but ended up as researcher dilettante.

roberto

pre 15 godina

Wow -- so nice to know that people are reading my comments... when they stop reading, that's when i suppose i need to worry.

actually i have spent a great deal of time in the balkans, including bosnia, serbia, kosova, macedonia... and we've conducted scores of interviews, formally, and many more informally. including a # of extreme nationalists, so such comments are nothing new for me.

anyway, i do NOT represent the US govt., and have never claimed to. sometimes i support them, often i don't, esp. w/bush in office and their war in iraq. we are free here to comment and protest about US policies, and any other policies we FEEL like discussing. i do not live in russia or nazi germany, thank god. i did not grow up in communism or fascism, thank god. the us govt is surely im-perfect, but the western democracies are heaven on earth compared to some of the points of view i see in this forum.

b-92 is NOT just a forum for serbs, or to be more precise, not just a forum for "nice" serb diaspora. you do not own it, and you will NOT intimidate me or any other person here, including other serbs. your beloved milosevic is dead!, your beloved karadzic is imprisoned, your beloved mladic is soon to be imprisoned, your beloved sesejl will never be free again to terrorize people, serb or otherwise. and you have lost "your" beloved kosova. so don't even try your tricks with me, don't even try!

i feel the same way as svetlana broz, who unlike her famous gr. father, is not a communist. how do you deal with all the nationalists? i asked her. with all of the criticism against you?

"They are my natural opponents, it is completely natural that we are on opposing sides." and so with me.

i do not judge people by color or ethnicity, which is racist. i do judge them by their values, or lack thereof.

thank you.

roberto-frisco

ZK UK

pre 15 godina

Karadžić, who was represented by Ramsey Clark, participated in the case until 1997, but later stopped attending hearings. In September 2000, a jury found him guilty of the said crimes, and ordered him to pay compensation of USD 4.5mn to the victims.
--
Sure this trial was a sham but to even admit he was unrepresented - that goes beyond belief!

Matthew

pre 15 godina

bmrusila,

That's a very good idea. I'm going to look into that since my wife lives here in the states and is from the Krajina area.

kufr

pre 15 godina

"Those cases expanded the use of the Alien Tort Statute of 1789, which allows foreigners to bring suits for breaches of human rights committed anywhere in the world before U.S. courts."

So I expect a lot of cases coming in from Guantanamo soon...

bmrusila

pre 15 godina

Interesting indeed. I also recommend Serbian victims to go to the USA and sue the well known commanders of Bosnia and Croatia responsible for the tragedy of Serbian victims. They can be prosecuted and have “fair” trial where I expect the verdict would be guilty. Serbs were tortured too, Serbian women raped as well, they were exterminated from certain areas in Bosnia and not to mention Croatia that ethnically cleansed all the areas inhabited by the Serbs. I think Krajina is enough to be mentioned. Serbian victims must be compensated too, at least symbolically. No, I do not feel sorry Karadzic and possibility of the confiscation of his property but I just feel that this is one farce more and once again selective justice, justice only for non-Serbs. Justice yes, but justice for all dear gentlemen.

Marko @ The Angry Mob

pre 15 godina

I wonder how many Dollars the West owes us for the bombing in 99. Just because some albanian stole someone else property.

Marko @ Tha Angry Mob

pre 15 godina

@ matthew,

if she's your wife you should know by now what happened in Krajina.

Now I really had enough of these cowboys ops americans who come here express their comments, the worse of all is this guy called Roberto from the US, they have never been to Serbia yet they have to illuminate us with their thoughts. I don't comment on US matters because I don't care, I'm not from there.

Marko

pre 15 godina

B92, perhaps some fact checking would be helpful; namely 4 million is not 4 billion.
Further what the article fails to mention is that Karadizic was noted in default a very long time ago and the time to collect on Judgments has likely expired.

Having his belonging seized is the least of his worries as he faces the court that freed Oric.

ida

pre 15 godina

"the worse of all is this guy called Roberto from the US"

I kind of think Roberta has been in the Balkans with his associations with Otpor. He is a non-Serb Jewish American but sticks his nose to meddle with Serbian traitors and non-Serbs. He is the type that spreads all the lying exaggerated anti-Serb propaganda while getting all crabby if crimes against Serbs are mentioned. He's very for the Balkan Muslims and their permanent ethnic cleansing of Serbs and the theft of Serbian property and land.

Ataman

pre 15 godina

The comments of Roberto are not just one-sided but usually full of anti-Serb poison. So far I did no see a single comment from him being even slightly positive towards Serbia. This is a "feat" most of Serbian gang did not achieve against Albanians and I recall, some Albanians like "Village-Bey" did not achieve against Serbs. I cannot call Roberto being even remotely a "moderate" (unlike Village-Bey who IMO has a terrific sense of humor)

Few observations:

#1: Officially the place (who supports the separatists say "country") is called "KosovO". I understand if Albanians are calling it KosovA - that's their tradition and language. I wonder, why someone who is not Albanian does the same. Maybe he wants to be more catholic than the Pope? Regardless, what is the answer, we all can agree - Roberto included - he should not pretend even remotely to be objective. "KosovO" could be anything, but "KosovA" means: "I am firmly on Albo side, no matter what".

#2: Roberto wrote: "i have spent a great deal of time in the balkans, including bosnia, serbia, kosova, macedonia... and we've conducted scores of interviews, formally, and many more informally"

That means, Roberto just provided the proof: American interviewers biased to THAT degree are / were conducting interviews in West Balkans. We assume, they are probably presenting material to the American public... I can imagine, how "unbiased" is the picture they paint about Serbia.

#3: Let's think a bit further. I am glad, someone (Roberto at a later time writes "we" - who are these "we"?) did that kind of job on their own. I am sure, they were on vacation in Jugoslavija, paying for hotels, meals, transportation, technical equipment, logistics out of their own pocket. They are probably just had a mere luck to speak with Svetlana Broz meeting her by accident in Sarajevo. ;-)

Or not? Who paid for that? Probably not the government of the U.S. directly, just some "non-profit" organization. At least, as usual, "non-profit on the paper". I am sure Roberto and his team had a much more decent budget than we ever had. But I am not sure, they actually did see and understand more than we (or Mike who lived in BG). And I am sure, they had a certain "mission to accomplish" (sorry to be poisonous but since you mentioned Bush and Iraq...OK, sorry, for poison)

#4: There is one important sentence where I agree with Roberto (and of course, with Svetlana Broz) - it's about the nationalists:

"They are my natural opponents, it is completely natural that we are on opposing sides." and so with me.

But I see here some contradiction. I see the strongest outbursts of nationalism, sometimes with fascist/nazi-like coloring coming from Albanian posters. There was NOT A SINGLE SIGN, Roberto would be against. Just to the contrary: in many cases he did pour more fuel.

If he claims, that nationalists are on opposing side, he should stick with his words...

#5: I by no means have any reservation against Zionism. You call yourself a moderate Zionist. Nothing wrong with that. But we should call the game by it's name. According the wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

"Described as a "diaspora nationalism," its proponents regard it as a national liberation movement whose aim is the self-determination of the Jewish people."

Which is - again - absolutely fine with me. But please read carefully: "diaspora NATIONALISM,"

That means you are on opposing side with yourself? I think, of course not. IMO you just try to beautify your bias here.

Defending the American Jewry I have to say: after "humanitarian bombing" most of it esp. the ones with Russian or East/Central European roots univocally are in support of Serbia. Further, I know many people from Israel who make a strong parallel between their struggle and the one of Serbs. But it seems, there is always an exception...


Let's do a little test, Roberto. Buy a small gift, say, a... piece of some Native American jewelry, nothing really expensive, in the value of $10-$20. Pack it well and send it by USPS EMS service to any of your Serbian friends (if you have any!), paying on-line. USPS has a web site, you can do it. And see what happens... I will tell you: your package will return to you in few days. In few more days a friendly voice from USPS administration will call you from their center in Washington, DC and explain: you can't send any EMS mail into "such dangerous, bad country like Serbia". Happened with me! I was mad like hell and asked the lady, how she knows, it's a "dangerous, bad country". She told me, she never was there, has no idea what it is, but she was told by her supervisors to say that.

So "tanks" for your interviews.

Marko, @ The Angry Mob

pre 15 godina

@ Roberto.

You say you have been in our country but you still can't spell KOSOVO properly. To all KOSOVO is with an O at the end.

Good day to everybody.

Matthew

pre 15 godina

Marko,

I have an idea what happened in Krajina. My wife was only 16 when Operation Storm happened, she doesn’t talk about it, but she has nightmares. You can imagine the trauma she endured. My brother in law has moved back to his village, but it’s full of swastika’s and Ustashe graffiti and not many have returned. I’ve been to Krajina numerous times. I lived in RS for a while.

My cousin (on my father’s side) had the audacity to sue some Ustashe in the courts in Croatia for wrongful death, he’s in his 80’s, yet he was thrown to the ground and had a gun put to his head in the middle of the courtroom. He was almost murdered right then and there. He’s a very brave man and I admire his courage greatly.

I personally find the idea of filing a lawsuit in the US a reasonable and safe choice.

Despite Roberto’s vehemence against the few Serbs that did commit crimes, I am sure he would support a Serbian suing some of the main players in Croatia. A victim is a victim after all.

Sounds like the kind of case Jonathan Levy would be interested in. He’s already going after the Vatican’s Ustashe gold stash.

Ataman

pre 15 godina

Matthew,

I would be very pleasantly surprised if I would see from Roberto what you expect - see my long rambling why. But who knows. Otherwise all respect to your cousin.

bmrusila

pre 15 godina

Ataman

-It could be that Roberto was her supervisor who established the hypothesis “Evil Serbs” by just being fed by the CNN news while seating in his comfortable chair. :-)))

Or, he just likes to play the role of “objective” researcher but ended up as researcher dilettante.

ida

pre 15 godina

"My wife was only 16 when Operation Storm happened, she doesn’t talk about it, but she has nightmares. You can imagine the trauma she endured."

There was an American woman who was in Croatia DURING the war working for the UN and she witnessed the crimes against Serbs and said that most of the victims DO NOT talk about what they suffered. Very different than the pushed propaganda of the Bosnian Muslims and others where they are always doing stunts and going on with their atrocity tales with no proof.

"My brother in law has moved back to his village, but it’s full of swastika’s and Ustashe graffiti and not many have returned. I’ve been to Krajina numerous times."

Has he or can he take photos of the swastikas and damage? Can you do so? It seems like a record of doing this and putting it up on the web would be helpful. There's very few pictures of Krajina and the destruction wrought on the internet but those who've been through it say it's a wasteland and the image of true ethnic cleansing and genocide. Is it dangerous to take photos, with camera or camera phone, or videos? Why have you or other Serb visitors done more documentation and made it available for reference?

"My cousin (on my father’s side) had the audacity to sue some Ustashe in the courts in Croatia for wrongful death, he’s in his 80’s, yet he was thrown to the ground and had a gun put to his head in the middle of the courtroom. He was almost murdered right then and there."

Was this very recently that it happened? Was the courtroom in Zagreb? Does he know the names of the Croat officials who were there?

Matthew

pre 15 godina

Ataman,

You may very well prove to be correct, however, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. He claims to be for the victims and against nationalism and racism. Maybe I’m just naïve (I often am), but I take people for what they claim unless they prove otherwise. I will give him a chance. We will see how he responds.

As far as Village-Bey goes, that dude seriously rocks. Obviously we don’t agree on many issues, but his sense of humor is awesome, he’s an interesting intelligent guy and he stands up for his position without being offensive. I would be proud to have someone like him as a friend. He definitely adds a positive influence on the discussion in many ways. There are a number of Albanians that post here who have my deep respect but they often get drowned out by some of the more extremist Albanians. Of course there are extremists on both sides of the discussion here on B92.

“I know many people from Israel who make a strong parallel between their struggle and the one of Serbs.” The above mentioned Jonathan Levy is just such a person. I have deep respect in his struggle against the Vatican’s actions during WWII. He is a very brave and courageous man as well. Any Serbs who lost property because of the Ustashe in WWII should contact him.

Matthew

pre 15 godina

Ida,

I will take more care to document the destruction, as you are correct of course, and I travel there nearly every year. It is a wasteland. I have some photo’s but they are more of the family nature and not of the damage. I think it could be safe to take pictures since most of these areas seem uninhabited. However, because of my last name, I have been hassled at times by figures in authority in Croatia.

“most of the victims DO NOT talk about what they suffered.”

This is most likely a result of the one-sided demonization of the crimes committed. It’s unfortunate that the Serbian victims are often ignored and the crimes against them justified. It’s very hard for them and hopefully in time this will change. Without that, true reconciliation will be difficult if not impossible.

“Was this very recently that it happened? Was the courtroom in Zagreb? Does he know the names of the Croat officials who were there?”

Let’s just say it happened since the wars in the 90’s, so somewhat recently. I will not go into specific details at this time since my cousin still lives in Croatia with his family and one of the men who did this is now a police chief. So yes, he knows exactly who did this. I will say it was a Croatian who made the call that saved his life, so there are heroes on both sides. The culprits did spend two weeks in jail for it, but that’s nothing compared to the gravity of the crime. Obviously, this is the first time I’ve mentioned this in a public forum out of concerns for his safety. I would be willing to discuss this more in detail in a private setting. I apologize for that, the truth does need to come out. However it’d be far too easy to identify who he is with any additional information.