Crveni Vuk, I totaly agree with your assessment that Serbia's new leadership will eventually recognize the inevitable and also apologize to the Kosovars
Not the old "YU" of course. The one without the communist ballast. However, I can say, "your" communism was million times better than ours. I remember well, our tourists queuing up for things like bananas, ADIDAS shirts and tickets to xxx movies. Pretty pathetic sight... And at least you had no need to hide in night trains or use some funny ways to escape to "West", a simple passport was good enough.
Otherwise I am saying what I say simply because there is no way to make any "just" border or partition in Western Balkan area. The only just border is no border. Now how you want to call that federation is up to you. With Albanians it's "easy" (at least what the language is concerned). But where is the bigger difference in language, tradition, customs:
a) Between Bavaria and Prussia (both called "German" language)
b) Between Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria (and add Ukraina, Belarus, Russia if you really want)
You know the answer. The difference between the German tribes is larger and they are proud to be different. The language spoken in Bavaria is very different from Plattendeutsch or Preußisch.
This is why I did mention the German sample. It took them 1000 years and two world wars to sort things out. So if it will take for you 50 years and "only" the bloody Balkan-conflict to make somewhat like a "West Balkan United States" than you are much better off.
Add to the Western Balkan the usual Kosovo-mess where Serbia cannot and should not live without Kosovo, but it cannot just ignore few million Albanians. What else can be a solution?
@Dashnori: Sorry, mate, your comment is completely off. You would be surprised to learn, I am not Serb/Croat/Slovene/etc. and I never lived on the territory of Jugoslavija (yet). One day hopefully much more Albanians will climb out of the self-dug mental bunker and look around.
Yugoslavia was a communist state. Quite a nasty one too. Perhaps not as nasty as Russia and some others of their time -- but a nasty place for sure. It was corrupt. It suppressed personal views. It suppressed freedoms. It suppressed democracy and many other things.
Your only hope towards any sort of future for you and your family was to become a communist and push and promote communism. And god help you if you said anything negative about them, People (many many people and entire families just disappeared into thin air back then for critisizing Tito and the communists).
The one of the good things that Tito and his commies did do was prevent the Croats and Serbs and Bosnians and so on from fighting and killing each other. Unfortunately, they didn't do it by trying to help all sides better understand each other and live better together. They did it by ruling with a very heavy hand. And when Tito and the communist governement fell apart and lost power -- the whole place blew up in smoke. Better known as the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990's.
It blew up in smoke for a couple of very simple facts. Everybody was ultra-ultra-ULTRA natonalist. They all want land and more land. And they all had and still have greedy power hungry political leaders who only know how to rally the people in one way and one way only -- by succumbing to promoting extreme nationalism and hatred against others.
So thats how you wind up with Serb's killing people in mass droves and Bosnians galavanding through the country sides chopping the heads off of old women and children as if it's the 1700's and the Croats murdering everything non-Croat in sight.
You really think the Yugoslav federation is going to make a come back. Fat chance of that ever happening.
"And as long as there are people who claim to be of "Jugoslavian" ethnic background, Jugoslavija is not dead."
Still dreaming of ruling an empire? It's over! Serbs got too greedy and Yugoslavia is gone, forever. No Slovene, no Croatian, no Albanian and definitely no Bosniak will want to be in the same state as you. If you think you can force them, think again, and again and again. You can't even beat Croatia alone, imagine a coalition of states. Let it go. Rule yourself and maybe Montenegro, the lost Serbs.
I believe, recalling the ambassadors was a deadly mistake. Many conflicts start due lack of communication. The first what Serbia needs is a very aggressive, very capable ambassador in Washington, DC. Back in early 90-s the separatist forces did a great job hiring the best PR agencies to throw as much dirt on the "Federalists" as possible. (I intentionally use the word "federalist" instead of "Serb").
Now the federalists have to do the same: work with the best agencies, spread the word. Don't use "do-it-yourself" tactics. America is a strange place for Europeans, there are huge cultural differences between the way how to influence the public opinion. Hiring the best LOCAL agents is the money best spent. And you need a very qualified coordinator (ambassador).
The only just solution on Balkans is the restoration of the Federation. USA had several attempts and one bloody civil war over a 100-year span until it begun to be taken seriously. Germany had 1000 years of several unification attempts, two world wars and Berlin Wall. In that retrospect Jugoslavija did not fare bad.
And as long as there are people who claim to be of "Jugoslavian" ethnic background, Jugoslavija is not dead.
What DSS and others on both sides of the argument fail to recognize that this is not any sort of sellout or acquiescence over Kosovo by DS, but a shift in strategies.
We've got to look at a number of events in order to see the big picture.
First, the arrest of Karadzic places Serbia in a better light in Europe.
Second, Serbia has returned only the European ambassadors. No mention is said of Serbia's ambassador to the US. Again, this is to put a Serbian voice back in major European capitals.
All of this is one big negotiation deal to get better leverage over Kosovo. I feel before all the cards are played, BG is positioning itself to negotiate its way towards greater control over Serb sectors of Kosovo in exchange all other outstanding requirements. And they're going to do it right within the EU.
They're playing the EU-card to EU music. A far better strategy than Kostunica's stonewalling.
The nations which have recognized the UDI have done so for their own interests(mainly to have a place to deport the thousands of illegal aliens and the vast number of criminals from their societies) and whether Serbia returns its ambassadors or not is irrelevant to their interests now that they have gone ahead and done so.It may be in Serbia's interest to have ambassadors going back and better informing the people in these countries of Serb contributions to the world.Shalom
"Minister Jeremić will have to explain to parliament how and why he abandoned the principles adopted by parliament, and who gave him the authority to, on Serbia’s behalf, legalize the EULEX mission, which represents Annex 10 of the Ahtisaari Plan for an independent Kosovo,” Mladenović said.
Does Mladenovic really realize that there is no smarter move than this?
What he expecting that government of Serbia give up its membership to international institutions and relationship with everyone just to express the anger in the most stupid way – walking out.
They DID try it and it didn’t work. He thinks that is going to work now?
MR. Jeremic promised us non-compliance and here he is selling out the Serbs for a couple of dollars. What ever happened to the determined (INAT) of the Serbs to continue digging a bigger hole for themselves. Deeper than the hole they're already in right now.Ooops, I for got the Radical party's grave digger is no longer in power, poor Serbia.Serbia must prove to the entire world that she doesn't need relations with the 43 countries who recognized Kosova's independence. Actually the whole world revovles around Serbia, didn't you already know that!
The nations which have recognized the UDI have done so for their own interests(mainly to have a place to deport the thousands of illegal aliens and the vast number of criminals from their societies) and whether Serbia returns its ambassadors or not is irrelevant to their interests now that they have gone ahead and done so.It may be in Serbia's interest to have ambassadors going back and better informing the people in these countries of Serb contributions to the world.Shalom
MR. Jeremic promised us non-compliance and here he is selling out the Serbs for a couple of dollars. What ever happened to the determined (INAT) of the Serbs to continue digging a bigger hole for themselves. Deeper than the hole they're already in right now.Ooops, I for got the Radical party's grave digger is no longer in power, poor Serbia.Serbia must prove to the entire world that she doesn't need relations with the 43 countries who recognized Kosova's independence. Actually the whole world revovles around Serbia, didn't you already know that!
What DSS and others on both sides of the argument fail to recognize that this is not any sort of sellout or acquiescence over Kosovo by DS, but a shift in strategies.
We've got to look at a number of events in order to see the big picture.
First, the arrest of Karadzic places Serbia in a better light in Europe.
Second, Serbia has returned only the European ambassadors. No mention is said of Serbia's ambassador to the US. Again, this is to put a Serbian voice back in major European capitals.
All of this is one big negotiation deal to get better leverage over Kosovo. I feel before all the cards are played, BG is positioning itself to negotiate its way towards greater control over Serb sectors of Kosovo in exchange all other outstanding requirements. And they're going to do it right within the EU.
They're playing the EU-card to EU music. A far better strategy than Kostunica's stonewalling.
"Minister Jeremić will have to explain to parliament how and why he abandoned the principles adopted by parliament, and who gave him the authority to, on Serbia’s behalf, legalize the EULEX mission, which represents Annex 10 of the Ahtisaari Plan for an independent Kosovo,” Mladenović said.
Does Mladenovic really realize that there is no smarter move than this?
What he expecting that government of Serbia give up its membership to international institutions and relationship with everyone just to express the anger in the most stupid way – walking out.
They DID try it and it didn’t work. He thinks that is going to work now?
Yugoslavia was a communist state. Quite a nasty one too. Perhaps not as nasty as Russia and some others of their time -- but a nasty place for sure. It was corrupt. It suppressed personal views. It suppressed freedoms. It suppressed democracy and many other things.
Your only hope towards any sort of future for you and your family was to become a communist and push and promote communism. And god help you if you said anything negative about them, People (many many people and entire families just disappeared into thin air back then for critisizing Tito and the communists).
The one of the good things that Tito and his commies did do was prevent the Croats and Serbs and Bosnians and so on from fighting and killing each other. Unfortunately, they didn't do it by trying to help all sides better understand each other and live better together. They did it by ruling with a very heavy hand. And when Tito and the communist governement fell apart and lost power -- the whole place blew up in smoke. Better known as the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990's.
It blew up in smoke for a couple of very simple facts. Everybody was ultra-ultra-ULTRA natonalist. They all want land and more land. And they all had and still have greedy power hungry political leaders who only know how to rally the people in one way and one way only -- by succumbing to promoting extreme nationalism and hatred against others.
So thats how you wind up with Serb's killing people in mass droves and Bosnians galavanding through the country sides chopping the heads off of old women and children as if it's the 1700's and the Croats murdering everything non-Croat in sight.
You really think the Yugoslav federation is going to make a come back. Fat chance of that ever happening.
I believe, recalling the ambassadors was a deadly mistake. Many conflicts start due lack of communication. The first what Serbia needs is a very aggressive, very capable ambassador in Washington, DC. Back in early 90-s the separatist forces did a great job hiring the best PR agencies to throw as much dirt on the "Federalists" as possible. (I intentionally use the word "federalist" instead of "Serb").
Now the federalists have to do the same: work with the best agencies, spread the word. Don't use "do-it-yourself" tactics. America is a strange place for Europeans, there are huge cultural differences between the way how to influence the public opinion. Hiring the best LOCAL agents is the money best spent. And you need a very qualified coordinator (ambassador).
The only just solution on Balkans is the restoration of the Federation. USA had several attempts and one bloody civil war over a 100-year span until it begun to be taken seriously. Germany had 1000 years of several unification attempts, two world wars and Berlin Wall. In that retrospect Jugoslavija did not fare bad.
And as long as there are people who claim to be of "Jugoslavian" ethnic background, Jugoslavija is not dead.
"And as long as there are people who claim to be of "Jugoslavian" ethnic background, Jugoslavija is not dead."
Still dreaming of ruling an empire? It's over! Serbs got too greedy and Yugoslavia is gone, forever. No Slovene, no Croatian, no Albanian and definitely no Bosniak will want to be in the same state as you. If you think you can force them, think again, and again and again. You can't even beat Croatia alone, imagine a coalition of states. Let it go. Rule yourself and maybe Montenegro, the lost Serbs.
Crveni Vuk, I totaly agree with your assessment that Serbia's new leadership will eventually recognize the inevitable and also apologize to the Kosovars
Not the old "YU" of course. The one without the communist ballast. However, I can say, "your" communism was million times better than ours. I remember well, our tourists queuing up for things like bananas, ADIDAS shirts and tickets to xxx movies. Pretty pathetic sight... And at least you had no need to hide in night trains or use some funny ways to escape to "West", a simple passport was good enough.
Otherwise I am saying what I say simply because there is no way to make any "just" border or partition in Western Balkan area. The only just border is no border. Now how you want to call that federation is up to you. With Albanians it's "easy" (at least what the language is concerned). But where is the bigger difference in language, tradition, customs:
a) Between Bavaria and Prussia (both called "German" language)
b) Between Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria (and add Ukraina, Belarus, Russia if you really want)
You know the answer. The difference between the German tribes is larger and they are proud to be different. The language spoken in Bavaria is very different from Plattendeutsch or Preußisch.
This is why I did mention the German sample. It took them 1000 years and two world wars to sort things out. So if it will take for you 50 years and "only" the bloody Balkan-conflict to make somewhat like a "West Balkan United States" than you are much better off.
Add to the Western Balkan the usual Kosovo-mess where Serbia cannot and should not live without Kosovo, but it cannot just ignore few million Albanians. What else can be a solution?
@Dashnori: Sorry, mate, your comment is completely off. You would be surprised to learn, I am not Serb/Croat/Slovene/etc. and I never lived on the territory of Jugoslavija (yet). One day hopefully much more Albanians will climb out of the self-dug mental bunker and look around.
MR. Jeremic promised us non-compliance and here he is selling out the Serbs for a couple of dollars. What ever happened to the determined (INAT) of the Serbs to continue digging a bigger hole for themselves. Deeper than the hole they're already in right now.Ooops, I for got the Radical party's grave digger is no longer in power, poor Serbia.Serbia must prove to the entire world that she doesn't need relations with the 43 countries who recognized Kosova's independence. Actually the whole world revovles around Serbia, didn't you already know that!
The nations which have recognized the UDI have done so for their own interests(mainly to have a place to deport the thousands of illegal aliens and the vast number of criminals from their societies) and whether Serbia returns its ambassadors or not is irrelevant to their interests now that they have gone ahead and done so.It may be in Serbia's interest to have ambassadors going back and better informing the people in these countries of Serb contributions to the world.Shalom
What DSS and others on both sides of the argument fail to recognize that this is not any sort of sellout or acquiescence over Kosovo by DS, but a shift in strategies.
We've got to look at a number of events in order to see the big picture.
First, the arrest of Karadzic places Serbia in a better light in Europe.
Second, Serbia has returned only the European ambassadors. No mention is said of Serbia's ambassador to the US. Again, this is to put a Serbian voice back in major European capitals.
All of this is one big negotiation deal to get better leverage over Kosovo. I feel before all the cards are played, BG is positioning itself to negotiate its way towards greater control over Serb sectors of Kosovo in exchange all other outstanding requirements. And they're going to do it right within the EU.
They're playing the EU-card to EU music. A far better strategy than Kostunica's stonewalling.
"Minister Jeremić will have to explain to parliament how and why he abandoned the principles adopted by parliament, and who gave him the authority to, on Serbia’s behalf, legalize the EULEX mission, which represents Annex 10 of the Ahtisaari Plan for an independent Kosovo,” Mladenović said.
Does Mladenovic really realize that there is no smarter move than this?
What he expecting that government of Serbia give up its membership to international institutions and relationship with everyone just to express the anger in the most stupid way – walking out.
They DID try it and it didn’t work. He thinks that is going to work now?
Not the old "YU" of course. The one without the communist ballast. However, I can say, "your" communism was million times better than ours. I remember well, our tourists queuing up for things like bananas, ADIDAS shirts and tickets to xxx movies. Pretty pathetic sight... And at least you had no need to hide in night trains or use some funny ways to escape to "West", a simple passport was good enough.
Otherwise I am saying what I say simply because there is no way to make any "just" border or partition in Western Balkan area. The only just border is no border. Now how you want to call that federation is up to you. With Albanians it's "easy" (at least what the language is concerned). But where is the bigger difference in language, tradition, customs:
a) Between Bavaria and Prussia (both called "German" language)
b) Between Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria (and add Ukraina, Belarus, Russia if you really want)
You know the answer. The difference between the German tribes is larger and they are proud to be different. The language spoken in Bavaria is very different from Plattendeutsch or Preußisch.
This is why I did mention the German sample. It took them 1000 years and two world wars to sort things out. So if it will take for you 50 years and "only" the bloody Balkan-conflict to make somewhat like a "West Balkan United States" than you are much better off.
Add to the Western Balkan the usual Kosovo-mess where Serbia cannot and should not live without Kosovo, but it cannot just ignore few million Albanians. What else can be a solution?
@Dashnori: Sorry, mate, your comment is completely off. You would be surprised to learn, I am not Serb/Croat/Slovene/etc. and I never lived on the territory of Jugoslavija (yet). One day hopefully much more Albanians will climb out of the self-dug mental bunker and look around.
I believe, recalling the ambassadors was a deadly mistake. Many conflicts start due lack of communication. The first what Serbia needs is a very aggressive, very capable ambassador in Washington, DC. Back in early 90-s the separatist forces did a great job hiring the best PR agencies to throw as much dirt on the "Federalists" as possible. (I intentionally use the word "federalist" instead of "Serb").
Now the federalists have to do the same: work with the best agencies, spread the word. Don't use "do-it-yourself" tactics. America is a strange place for Europeans, there are huge cultural differences between the way how to influence the public opinion. Hiring the best LOCAL agents is the money best spent. And you need a very qualified coordinator (ambassador).
The only just solution on Balkans is the restoration of the Federation. USA had several attempts and one bloody civil war over a 100-year span until it begun to be taken seriously. Germany had 1000 years of several unification attempts, two world wars and Berlin Wall. In that retrospect Jugoslavija did not fare bad.
And as long as there are people who claim to be of "Jugoslavian" ethnic background, Jugoslavija is not dead.
"And as long as there are people who claim to be of "Jugoslavian" ethnic background, Jugoslavija is not dead."
Still dreaming of ruling an empire? It's over! Serbs got too greedy and Yugoslavia is gone, forever. No Slovene, no Croatian, no Albanian and definitely no Bosniak will want to be in the same state as you. If you think you can force them, think again, and again and again. You can't even beat Croatia alone, imagine a coalition of states. Let it go. Rule yourself and maybe Montenegro, the lost Serbs.
Yugoslavia was a communist state. Quite a nasty one too. Perhaps not as nasty as Russia and some others of their time -- but a nasty place for sure. It was corrupt. It suppressed personal views. It suppressed freedoms. It suppressed democracy and many other things.
Your only hope towards any sort of future for you and your family was to become a communist and push and promote communism. And god help you if you said anything negative about them, People (many many people and entire families just disappeared into thin air back then for critisizing Tito and the communists).
The one of the good things that Tito and his commies did do was prevent the Croats and Serbs and Bosnians and so on from fighting and killing each other. Unfortunately, they didn't do it by trying to help all sides better understand each other and live better together. They did it by ruling with a very heavy hand. And when Tito and the communist governement fell apart and lost power -- the whole place blew up in smoke. Better known as the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990's.
It blew up in smoke for a couple of very simple facts. Everybody was ultra-ultra-ULTRA natonalist. They all want land and more land. And they all had and still have greedy power hungry political leaders who only know how to rally the people in one way and one way only -- by succumbing to promoting extreme nationalism and hatred against others.
So thats how you wind up with Serb's killing people in mass droves and Bosnians galavanding through the country sides chopping the heads off of old women and children as if it's the 1700's and the Croats murdering everything non-Croat in sight.
You really think the Yugoslav federation is going to make a come back. Fat chance of that ever happening.
Crveni Vuk, I totaly agree with your assessment that Serbia's new leadership will eventually recognize the inevitable and also apologize to the Kosovars
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