Koštunica: Arrest “portrayed” as success

You are so correct once again Koštunica. While this NATO court releases those mass murderers that killed Serbians, this government feels it appropriate to hand over those very people that defended us!

Why on earth would any Serbian want to protect their own people when they end up being thrown to the lions by their very own? The message sent is completely wrong!

In wars, all leaders become criminals and Serbians should never subscribe to selective justice. The actions of this so-called government is disgraceful!

The US and partners in crime have successfully dismantled a strong Serbian army and infiltrated into our secret services. It now seems we have completely lost our freedom and anyone who opposes these new rulers will be dealt with and locked up.

But I do have faith - the will of the Serbian people can outlive any dictatorship and occupation. We strive for freedom and it will come to us once again!

zorank@email.com

Thank you Vojo for speaking the truth once again. You are the spiritual leader of true Serbs.
Unfortunately we have a government full of Vuk Brankovic's. It's very sad that we have such leaders.
But it's darkest before the dawn, and the lowest ebb is the turn of the tide. Serbia will soon rise out of the ashes once again, and truth and justice will be restored.
Cheers!!

there is only one thing to say:

Kostunica is right, as usual.

Is to little to late from Serbia, don’t be decived, Karadzic's army really did commit the most brutal, inhumane murders anyone can think of in Srebrenica, gathering and then killing thousands of unarmed man cold blooded, and dumping them in mass graves.

Also keeping under siege Sarajevo for years. Bombing it every day with total disregard for human life. Often cutting water supplies to make in certain areas big number of civilians wanting to get water and then bombing them to pieces.

He is now an old unimportant man. The problem is that Serbia has not yet done what it should have ,which is to confront its past.

The majority of the Serbian population votes for Nationalists, even in Serbia proper Nationalists are the biggest political force.

They see Mladic and Karadzic and Milosevic as heroes, and mainly because no politician or historian or media is willing to go out there and not only confront the reality but condemn the brutality they inflicted on the civilian populations of neighboring countries.

They see them as heroes, and moderate forces shut up, and nationalist deny the crimes, while ultra-nationalists condone them.

While this is a step forward, more should be done from Serbian politics, to totally distance themselves from this elements which belong to the darkest and most shameful pages of European and World history.

Wake up Olf, the food at Disneyland seems to be distorting your brain. Too many additives I think!

How on earth can you claim that no politician or historian or media is willing to condemn the actions of Serbians? Where have you been?

It is the Serbians in the western part of this world that seem the most vocal about defending our interests even though we were flooded, day in day out, by peace loving US and UK politicians explaining how evil we Serbians are while broadcasting innocent CNN footage showing humanitarian bombs killing our people.

When you start waking up to the fact that the Albanians, Bosnian Muslims, Croatians and NATO committed some of the worst crimes against the Serbians but have exempted themselves from prosecution and you condemn that, then you may have a point!

Now do you want fries with that also?

zorank@email.com

Since I believe Mr Kostunica there is no need to suspect any of his claims. It is only sad that our high profile politicians seating in the government do not speak honestly into the public under what a terrible pressure Serbia is. Why they hide that from the people? I guess because people are already sick of the EU and their endless conditions. Hope they are going to play wisely this game and prove not to be political dilettantes.

However, since every step taken by the EU and USA regarding Kosovo was a forceful, the existence of some so called independence of Serbian Province Kosovo and Metohija cannot last for long. It is a matter of the time when the house of the cards will collapse.

Will somebody please tackle the issue at hand rather than simply stating the obvious...
(bganon, 23 July 2008 11:24)
--
When are you going to grow some teeth bganon? Unless a toothless tiger gets hand fed mushed-up food it is pretty much dead!

When you allow the dictators to take a tooth at a time, you increasingly rely on them to feed you. That is what you are proposing bganon and then you get to the point where your very survival depends on them! You really want Serbia to be toothless and on her knees, right?

But the solution is quite simple - get off your knees and defend yourself! Protect your soul and then life begins my friend.

It seems only the DSS/SRS are prepared to do that!

ZK I reckon we have made it out of the jungle and live in civilisation.

Civilisation means the rule of law is imperative. So what would you do with suspected war criminals, let them roam the streets, on account of the fact that American war criminals are not charged....

As for emotional, populist language, save it. I'm interested in solutions not demagogy.

I'm sure your sentiment is fun when rooting for Djokovic at Wimbledon but life is more serious than that. It requires responsiblity and hard answers to hard questions. You gave me no answers.

We know about dictators, remember the one that led us into the state we are today, with Kosovo etc.

Bganon, bottom line is that if the law is not just it must be challenged and not ebeyed.
Hauge is not just and therefore it must not be obeyed. It must be challenged and closed.
Nobody is saying that war criminals should not be tried but we are all saying that they cannot be tried in a court which is designed soley for the purpose of convicting only the Serbs.

I can't give you a solution to what the alternative is as I am not in a position to make any decisions but there are people who are and they must come up with an alternative.
So, all you give the a solution is just plain rubbish. Don't ask that of us ordinary folk who can only see that there is a problem. The very people who set up that mockery of a court must come up with a fair solution, not us.
You should be demanding that they do just that instead of attacking the rest of us who are willing to challenge a corrupt court.

A riddle:
Who is the high ranking Serbian politician that helped Karadzic to hide in this 10 years ?
....i have a feeling...

rolerkoster, Kosovo is the only important issue to me? Where did you get that nonsense?

Dragan - well said!

zorank@email.com

All eyes should now be with the DS lead coalition of TADIC. let see who will win is it going to be nationalism or euros. This is a big test for Serbia in many battles it had faced in the past.

"...because of the acquittals of Haradinaj and Orić, Serbia needs to open the issue of whether the Tribunal has the legitimacy to justly try war crimes suspects."

Very true -- I would also have to add Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Tony Blair, and others to the list of "diplomats" that should be tried in court.

bganon - You want a solution, here is mine... SET HIM FREE

Now before you accuse me of bieng a radical/ultra nationalist, let me give some argument to my choice of solution.

george bush, who is responsible for over 1 million iraqi deaths is not just able to roam the streets, he stays in presidential suites, he lives the high life (as far as money is concerned, not so much public opinion). Why isn't he facing justice? Because he runs the grand old US of A? Becuase Might makes Right?

Let's look at bill clinton or tony blair. They commited many war crimes in the Balkan wars but are they facing justice? Hell no, they are free as birds, able to enjoy their retirement even though during their reign in government they we're responsible for the deaths of many Serbs in the Bosnia and Kosovo campaigns.


I am a regular reader of the news and comments here on B92 and yours seem very pragmatic and practical and I support that way of thinking (I know many serbs and albos here get very emotional and make comments based on such things). However if you believe that by taking Rado to court, be it in Belgrade, the Hague or whatever do you really think that is going to make anything better for the citizens of Serbia? Is it going to draw more investments?

Is the IT company in Britan that needs some work outsourced to another country (e.g. Serbia) going to care whether the nation is refusing to hand over a 60+ year old man or will they be more interested in whether that nations' IT companies are competent and able to do a good job at a competitive price? I would imagine the latter would matter more (hehe I'm a software engineer by profession so its a natural example for me to use :)

The EU is closed, at least until the Lisbon Treaty gets in force which who knows how long that may take. So if this was an attempt by Tadic to get closer to EU, I'm sorry but it is fatal. Also, even though basiaclly all the big parties wont recognise Kosovo, Brussels implicitly demands that this is the case before entry. So even if Serbia hands over Karadzic and Mladic, there will still be the Kosovo recognition issue to stall the engine. Serbia needs to slow its political engine down and attract as much investment as possible (be it from the west or east) well this is what the government that cares for its citizens would do... which is rarely if ever the case.

By far the best news I read today is the one pertaining the building of an IT park in Serbia. This is excellent news, this is real news (when reading news regarding politics one always has to be careful and often think twice about what is bieng said and what the real story is) and I hope to see more of the kind in the future.

Cheers,

Its easy to say and agree that some tribunal verdicts have been dubious to say the least.

But what is the alternative? What is the use of having clowns with a critical opinion (even based on truth) if they are unable to suggest an alternative?

What are we all supposed to do, just say no and hope the issue goes away?

Will somebody please tackle the issue at hand rather than simply stating the obvious...

A solution to the problem of accused war criminals. What did you think we are talking about?

Do you support the trial of suspected war criminals or not?
What is your alternative to the Hague tribunal? For heavens sake propose some alternative to the Hague. You will get nowhere in life if all you ever do is complain and can't put forward an alternative.

Yes the state of Israel commits crimes and your solution is what? You don't have one? What is it? Afraid that others like you will find holes in your argument. You are telling me to grow some teeth, which in your book means just to sit here and say something patriotic or radical. We high five each other and nothing gets done.

I say to you get some backbone, stand out from the crowd and propose an alternative for Serbia.

One last thing, I find your theory a little contradictory. If the solution in your book is to get some teeth and yet you infer that the system can't be changed, surely all you are advocating is more suffering for the Serbian people. You know supposed 'dignity' but in fact more pain and loss. Is that right?

bganon, a solution to what? The reason you will never find a solution is because one doesn't exist and by the time you think you've found it, the conditions change.

Also, people who think in the past, live with the dead and those that think in the future have false hopes. The place to be is in the living present and to react to the situation as it changes.

So your solution is to abide by the law, but when the law gets in the way of the dictators, that is a mere inconvenience as they know it doesn't apply to them but only to those that go against their wishes.

The laws of war were designed to be broken once someone participates so the dictators can always accuse their opponents of war crimes or even make some up while they simply exempt themselves from murder! You should know that.

Isreal commits crimes constantly and possesses weapons of mass destruction but Iraq gets bombed. On what basis? The law to bomb Iraq or Serbia didn't exist so the dictators created one. You see, you can't solve something that can outsmart your solution right?

You solution bganon will put us all under slavery unless you grow some teeth and learn to fend for yourself. I hope you get the idea.

While this NATO court releases those mass murderers that killed Serbians, this government feels it appropriate to hand over those very people that defended us! (ZK UK, 23 July 2008 11:59)

do you think, war crimes were commited by Bosnian Serbs for to defend Serbian people like you? people which never were living in Serbia ...

as Kosovo is the the only important issue for you, as YOU wrote here last time, one must think, this issue has suddenly lost importance for you, ZK.

Yes bganon, send all war criminals to trial and reconcile all of those people that once fought against each other. That would be the honourable thing to do.

The Hague was originally set up to do exactly that - NATO, Serbian, Muslim, Croatian, Albanian crimes would be investigated and those responsible would face justice.

Well, at least until the US and NATO decided to exempt itself and only investigate and convict Serbians!

You see, in that case the direction is quite simple. Any normal person would know what to do - and that is to say no to selective justice. However, that is not a solution but just a maneuver to the changing situation.

Anyway bganon, you are obviously not Serbian and you almost had me fooled.

ZK I see you still don't advocate the trial of those accused to committing war crimes. What is your solution? Just to set them all free?

Why can't you ever propose something? Why do we always have to wait for somebody else to do the running (like Djindjic for example) then only after he's dead start to realise, for example, that his policy on Kosovo would have helped? His policy on Kosovo, which Kostunica opposed (no wonder you like him so much with the same mind set).

Unlike you I'm not interested in declaring a supposed defence of my ethnic or national identity, so you can goad me all you want. But I'm not surprised that you admit to being easily fooled with the opinions you hold :)

Olf: "The majority of the Serbian population votes for Nationalists, even in Serbia proper Nationalists are the biggest political force."

Ummm...Tadic beat Nikolic in the presidential election and the SRS received 29% in the recent parliamentary election. If you cannot get some basic facts like this correct why should anyone take anything your write seriously?

Karadzic might have been in Serbia when he was caught, but is isn't a Serbian Citizen.

Kostunica's analysis, as always, is exactly right on the money. But what is Serbia supposed to do? Serbia has no choice but to give up Karadzic and Mladic, regardless how unfair that may be considering the Hague is nothing but an instrument for vindicating the US and NATO. The Palestineans have kept their pride and integrity for 60 years, and it has only led them to poverty and humiliation. Serbia has no choice but to follow Western orders.

bganon, B92 edited my post so the "you almost had me fooled" bit had more to it - and is not in the same context as originally written.

Anyway, as B92 saw it fit to remove that bit at the end, then I simply cannot continue any further as that part was important to demonstrate my intended next point.

so, here is what i see, not for the first time: some self-identified "moderate" or "liberal" serb posts a "moderate" comment, and he/she is immediately pressured by a number of the nationalists to "grow some teeth" and be more loyal to mother serbia, etc. now, first off, i do find this to be intimidating behavior, and i don't like it. BUT -- look deeper at what is going on here -- few of the nationalists comment to me directly; they mostly ignore we or make snide comments, as i (try to) ignore them. but when it comes to a fellow serb, the pressure is ON, bigtime!


now here i am not really talking just about b-92, but to the larger and more disturbing picture -- how serbs throughout the former YU have been indimidated, or worse, into going with the most extremist positions, as monsters like karadzic promoted (for their own selfish gains $$$$$.) many serbs i have met, and some interviewed, have shared this with me, and it had huge and really awful repercussions. if this project from the 90s was really one of and by the serbs, then naturally the outside world rightly would become extremely antagonistic of serbs. but if it is just "bad apples" or milosevic, or the nationalists, then that is quite a different story. that is why i, personally, have tried so hard not to divide people here into "the serb camp" v. everyone else...

a number of serb individuals that i've met, in bosnia and in serbia, have loudly rejected the nationalist mode, and some have suffered terribly for it, much worse than just social derision. some were sent into serb-run concentration camps, tortured, etc. because they listened to their consciences, and not their extremist neighbors.

so -- even if i don't always agree with these "moderate" serb posters, and clearly we have differing perspectives, i do want to reinforce their values and their standing up to extreme social pressures.

freedom, democracy, human-rights, people make fun of these concepts, trash them, trash the US, etc. it doesn't matter to me -- i know what i value, and that i must spend my life working for that. if people make fun of it or put it down, put me down, so be it. there are worse things in this world.

roberto-frisco
robertoruss@yahoo.com

The Tribunal was never meant to investigate NATO crimes, where did this notion come from? NATO is in a separate jurisdiction from the UN.

There are certain realities of the geopolitical order that nationalist Serbs refuse to recognize. Serbia can't withhold international cooperation until the US is prosecuted for their misdeeds, because that will never happen and only punish Serbia. Serbia is possibly the only country in Europe that fails to recognize the benefits of the EU and views it with skepticism. I partly blame the Schengen regime for this, since how is one to know how good life is in the EU if you cannot travel there? If you can, you receive a torrent of abuse from EU country embassies and consulates, not the best PR move. But life IS better in the EU. We Serbs would do well to cooperate and not turn our backs "iz inata". Regardless of the cost, the long term benefits will pay off. But we've never been a people paying attention to the long term.

Kostunica will save himself in any way he can. Not a surprise.

roberto you have a point.

What is true is that the patriot automatically exposes himself as a liar when he savagely attacks a fellow Serb. It shows that the truth that the love is reserved only for those that share political beliefs (Serb or not) and NOT Serbs. That is not patriotism. The real patriots may disagree with others in Serbia but they will never indulge in hatred, or they may do so and then express regret later.

But its not a problem, don't forget its the extreme nationalists that are under pressure now. They had their decade and ruined the country. Now its our turn and lets face it, it can't be any worse than those ten years.

DJ ok, fair enough, thats your view but you are forgetting something - the law. Its not just about normalisation of relations, EU integration and the economy, living standards, though these are important. It is about the rule of law. Karadzic is accused of serious crimes, he has to answer for them. My preference is in a Serbian court of law. I think it can be done, I don't want to see the guy hanged or fitted up, but I'm fed up with the lack of law and justice in Serbia. Its time to do that, not so much for outside reasons, but for ourselves.

Typical Voja, when in government he didn't have the guts to arrest the fugitives or to say explicitly that he wouldn't have them arrested. Now that he has been exposed for what he is, he tries to pretend that his government wasn't formally committed to the law on cooperation with the Hague. So much for legalism, so much for Voja.

Is to little to late from Serbia, don’t be decived, Karadzic's army really did commit the most brutal, inhumane murders anyone can think of in Srebrenica, gathering and then killing thousands of unarmed man cold blooded, and dumping them in mass graves.

Also keeping under siege Sarajevo for years. Bombing it every day with total disregard for human life. Often cutting water supplies to make in certain areas big number of civilians wanting to get water and then bombing them to pieces.

He is now an old unimportant man. The problem is that Serbia has not yet done what it should have ,which is to confront its past.

The majority of the Serbian population votes for Nationalists, even in Serbia proper Nationalists are the biggest political force.

They see Mladic and Karadzic and Milosevic as heroes, and mainly because no politician or historian or media is willing to go out there and not only confront the reality but condemn the brutality they inflicted on the civilian populations of neighboring countries.

They see them as heroes, and moderate forces shut up, and nationalist deny the crimes, while ultra-nationalists condone them.

While this is a step forward, more should be done from Serbian politics, to totally distance themselves from this elements which belong to the darkest and most shameful pages of European and World history.

While this NATO court releases those mass murderers that killed Serbians, this government feels it appropriate to hand over those very people that defended us! (ZK UK, 23 July 2008 11:59)

do you think, war crimes were commited by Bosnian Serbs for to defend Serbian people like you? people which never were living in Serbia ...

as Kosovo is the the only important issue for you, as YOU wrote here last time, one must think, this issue has suddenly lost importance for you, ZK.

ZK I reckon we have made it out of the jungle and live in civilisation.

Civilisation means the rule of law is imperative. So what would you do with suspected war criminals, let them roam the streets, on account of the fact that American war criminals are not charged....

As for emotional, populist language, save it. I'm interested in solutions not demagogy.

I'm sure your sentiment is fun when rooting for Djokovic at Wimbledon but life is more serious than that. It requires responsiblity and hard answers to hard questions. You gave me no answers.

We know about dictators, remember the one that led us into the state we are today, with Kosovo etc.

A riddle:
Who is the high ranking Serbian politician that helped Karadzic to hide in this 10 years ?
....i have a feeling...

You are so correct once again Koštunica. While this NATO court releases those mass murderers that killed Serbians, this government feels it appropriate to hand over those very people that defended us!

Why on earth would any Serbian want to protect their own people when they end up being thrown to the lions by their very own? The message sent is completely wrong!

In wars, all leaders become criminals and Serbians should never subscribe to selective justice. The actions of this so-called government is disgraceful!

The US and partners in crime have successfully dismantled a strong Serbian army and infiltrated into our secret services. It now seems we have completely lost our freedom and anyone who opposes these new rulers will be dealt with and locked up.

But I do have faith - the will of the Serbian people can outlive any dictatorship and occupation. We strive for freedom and it will come to us once again!

zorank@email.com

Wake up Olf, the food at Disneyland seems to be distorting your brain. Too many additives I think!

How on earth can you claim that no politician or historian or media is willing to condemn the actions of Serbians? Where have you been?

It is the Serbians in the western part of this world that seem the most vocal about defending our interests even though we were flooded, day in day out, by peace loving US and UK politicians explaining how evil we Serbians are while broadcasting innocent CNN footage showing humanitarian bombs killing our people.

When you start waking up to the fact that the Albanians, Bosnian Muslims, Croatians and NATO committed some of the worst crimes against the Serbians but have exempted themselves from prosecution and you condemn that, then you may have a point!

Now do you want fries with that also?

zorank@email.com

Kostunica's analysis, as always, is exactly right on the money. But what is Serbia supposed to do? Serbia has no choice but to give up Karadzic and Mladic, regardless how unfair that may be considering the Hague is nothing but an instrument for vindicating the US and NATO. The Palestineans have kept their pride and integrity for 60 years, and it has only led them to poverty and humiliation. Serbia has no choice but to follow Western orders.

Yes bganon, send all war criminals to trial and reconcile all of those people that once fought against each other. That would be the honourable thing to do.

The Hague was originally set up to do exactly that - NATO, Serbian, Muslim, Croatian, Albanian crimes would be investigated and those responsible would face justice.

Well, at least until the US and NATO decided to exempt itself and only investigate and convict Serbians!

You see, in that case the direction is quite simple. Any normal person would know what to do - and that is to say no to selective justice. However, that is not a solution but just a maneuver to the changing situation.

Anyway bganon, you are obviously not Serbian and you almost had me fooled.

Typical Voja, when in government he didn't have the guts to arrest the fugitives or to say explicitly that he wouldn't have them arrested. Now that he has been exposed for what he is, he tries to pretend that his government wasn't formally committed to the law on cooperation with the Hague. So much for legalism, so much for Voja.

Its easy to say and agree that some tribunal verdicts have been dubious to say the least.

But what is the alternative? What is the use of having clowns with a critical opinion (even based on truth) if they are unable to suggest an alternative?

What are we all supposed to do, just say no and hope the issue goes away?

Will somebody please tackle the issue at hand rather than simply stating the obvious...

Since I believe Mr Kostunica there is no need to suspect any of his claims. It is only sad that our high profile politicians seating in the government do not speak honestly into the public under what a terrible pressure Serbia is. Why they hide that from the people? I guess because people are already sick of the EU and their endless conditions. Hope they are going to play wisely this game and prove not to be political dilettantes.

However, since every step taken by the EU and USA regarding Kosovo was a forceful, the existence of some so called independence of Serbian Province Kosovo and Metohija cannot last for long. It is a matter of the time when the house of the cards will collapse.

there is only one thing to say:

Kostunica is right, as usual.

bganon, a solution to what? The reason you will never find a solution is because one doesn't exist and by the time you think you've found it, the conditions change.

Also, people who think in the past, live with the dead and those that think in the future have false hopes. The place to be is in the living present and to react to the situation as it changes.

So your solution is to abide by the law, but when the law gets in the way of the dictators, that is a mere inconvenience as they know it doesn't apply to them but only to those that go against their wishes.

The laws of war were designed to be broken once someone participates so the dictators can always accuse their opponents of war crimes or even make some up while they simply exempt themselves from murder! You should know that.

Isreal commits crimes constantly and possesses weapons of mass destruction but Iraq gets bombed. On what basis? The law to bomb Iraq or Serbia didn't exist so the dictators created one. You see, you can't solve something that can outsmart your solution right?

You solution bganon will put us all under slavery unless you grow some teeth and learn to fend for yourself. I hope you get the idea.

A solution to the problem of accused war criminals. What did you think we are talking about?

Do you support the trial of suspected war criminals or not?
What is your alternative to the Hague tribunal? For heavens sake propose some alternative to the Hague. You will get nowhere in life if all you ever do is complain and can't put forward an alternative.

Yes the state of Israel commits crimes and your solution is what? You don't have one? What is it? Afraid that others like you will find holes in your argument. You are telling me to grow some teeth, which in your book means just to sit here and say something patriotic or radical. We high five each other and nothing gets done.

I say to you get some backbone, stand out from the crowd and propose an alternative for Serbia.

One last thing, I find your theory a little contradictory. If the solution in your book is to get some teeth and yet you infer that the system can't be changed, surely all you are advocating is more suffering for the Serbian people. You know supposed 'dignity' but in fact more pain and loss. Is that right?

ZK I see you still don't advocate the trial of those accused to committing war crimes. What is your solution? Just to set them all free?

Why can't you ever propose something? Why do we always have to wait for somebody else to do the running (like Djindjic for example) then only after he's dead start to realise, for example, that his policy on Kosovo would have helped? His policy on Kosovo, which Kostunica opposed (no wonder you like him so much with the same mind set).

Unlike you I'm not interested in declaring a supposed defence of my ethnic or national identity, so you can goad me all you want. But I'm not surprised that you admit to being easily fooled with the opinions you hold :)

Bganon, bottom line is that if the law is not just it must be challenged and not ebeyed.
Hauge is not just and therefore it must not be obeyed. It must be challenged and closed.
Nobody is saying that war criminals should not be tried but we are all saying that they cannot be tried in a court which is designed soley for the purpose of convicting only the Serbs.

I can't give you a solution to what the alternative is as I am not in a position to make any decisions but there are people who are and they must come up with an alternative.
So, all you give the a solution is just plain rubbish. Don't ask that of us ordinary folk who can only see that there is a problem. The very people who set up that mockery of a court must come up with a fair solution, not us.
You should be demanding that they do just that instead of attacking the rest of us who are willing to challenge a corrupt court.

so, here is what i see, not for the first time: some self-identified "moderate" or "liberal" serb posts a "moderate" comment, and he/she is immediately pressured by a number of the nationalists to "grow some teeth" and be more loyal to mother serbia, etc. now, first off, i do find this to be intimidating behavior, and i don't like it. BUT -- look deeper at what is going on here -- few of the nationalists comment to me directly; they mostly ignore we or make snide comments, as i (try to) ignore them. but when it comes to a fellow serb, the pressure is ON, bigtime!


now here i am not really talking just about b-92, but to the larger and more disturbing picture -- how serbs throughout the former YU have been indimidated, or worse, into going with the most extremist positions, as monsters like karadzic promoted (for their own selfish gains $$$$$.) many serbs i have met, and some interviewed, have shared this with me, and it had huge and really awful repercussions. if this project from the 90s was really one of and by the serbs, then naturally the outside world rightly would become extremely antagonistic of serbs. but if it is just "bad apples" or milosevic, or the nationalists, then that is quite a different story. that is why i, personally, have tried so hard not to divide people here into "the serb camp" v. everyone else...

a number of serb individuals that i've met, in bosnia and in serbia, have loudly rejected the nationalist mode, and some have suffered terribly for it, much worse than just social derision. some were sent into serb-run concentration camps, tortured, etc. because they listened to their consciences, and not their extremist neighbors.

so -- even if i don't always agree with these "moderate" serb posters, and clearly we have differing perspectives, i do want to reinforce their values and their standing up to extreme social pressures.

freedom, democracy, human-rights, people make fun of these concepts, trash them, trash the US, etc. it doesn't matter to me -- i know what i value, and that i must spend my life working for that. if people make fun of it or put it down, put me down, so be it. there are worse things in this world.

roberto-frisco
robertoruss@yahoo.com

The Tribunal was never meant to investigate NATO crimes, where did this notion come from? NATO is in a separate jurisdiction from the UN.

There are certain realities of the geopolitical order that nationalist Serbs refuse to recognize. Serbia can't withhold international cooperation until the US is prosecuted for their misdeeds, because that will never happen and only punish Serbia. Serbia is possibly the only country in Europe that fails to recognize the benefits of the EU and views it with skepticism. I partly blame the Schengen regime for this, since how is one to know how good life is in the EU if you cannot travel there? If you can, you receive a torrent of abuse from EU country embassies and consulates, not the best PR move. But life IS better in the EU. We Serbs would do well to cooperate and not turn our backs "iz inata". Regardless of the cost, the long term benefits will pay off. But we've never been a people paying attention to the long term.

Kostunica will save himself in any way he can. Not a surprise.

roberto you have a point.

What is true is that the patriot automatically exposes himself as a liar when he savagely attacks a fellow Serb. It shows that the truth that the love is reserved only for those that share political beliefs (Serb or not) and NOT Serbs. That is not patriotism. The real patriots may disagree with others in Serbia but they will never indulge in hatred, or they may do so and then express regret later.

But its not a problem, don't forget its the extreme nationalists that are under pressure now. They had their decade and ruined the country. Now its our turn and lets face it, it can't be any worse than those ten years.

DJ ok, fair enough, thats your view but you are forgetting something - the law. Its not just about normalisation of relations, EU integration and the economy, living standards, though these are important. It is about the rule of law. Karadzic is accused of serious crimes, he has to answer for them. My preference is in a Serbian court of law. I think it can be done, I don't want to see the guy hanged or fitted up, but I'm fed up with the lack of law and justice in Serbia. Its time to do that, not so much for outside reasons, but for ourselves.

Will somebody please tackle the issue at hand rather than simply stating the obvious...
(bganon, 23 July 2008 11:24)
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When are you going to grow some teeth bganon? Unless a toothless tiger gets hand fed mushed-up food it is pretty much dead!

When you allow the dictators to take a tooth at a time, you increasingly rely on them to feed you. That is what you are proposing bganon and then you get to the point where your very survival depends on them! You really want Serbia to be toothless and on her knees, right?

But the solution is quite simple - get off your knees and defend yourself! Protect your soul and then life begins my friend.

It seems only the DSS/SRS are prepared to do that!

All eyes should now be with the DS lead coalition of TADIC. let see who will win is it going to be nationalism or euros. This is a big test for Serbia in many battles it had faced in the past.

Olf: "The majority of the Serbian population votes for Nationalists, even in Serbia proper Nationalists are the biggest political force."

Ummm...Tadic beat Nikolic in the presidential election and the SRS received 29% in the recent parliamentary election. If you cannot get some basic facts like this correct why should anyone take anything your write seriously?

Karadzic might have been in Serbia when he was caught, but is isn't a Serbian Citizen.

Thank you Vojo for speaking the truth once again. You are the spiritual leader of true Serbs.
Unfortunately we have a government full of Vuk Brankovic's. It's very sad that we have such leaders.
But it's darkest before the dawn, and the lowest ebb is the turn of the tide. Serbia will soon rise out of the ashes once again, and truth and justice will be restored.
Cheers!!

rolerkoster, Kosovo is the only important issue to me? Where did you get that nonsense?

Dragan - well said!

zorank@email.com

bganon, B92 edited my post so the "you almost had me fooled" bit had more to it - and is not in the same context as originally written.

Anyway, as B92 saw it fit to remove that bit at the end, then I simply cannot continue any further as that part was important to demonstrate my intended next point.

"...because of the acquittals of Haradinaj and Orić, Serbia needs to open the issue of whether the Tribunal has the legitimacy to justly try war crimes suspects."

Very true -- I would also have to add Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Tony Blair, and others to the list of "diplomats" that should be tried in court.

bganon - You want a solution, here is mine... SET HIM FREE

Now before you accuse me of bieng a radical/ultra nationalist, let me give some argument to my choice of solution.

george bush, who is responsible for over 1 million iraqi deaths is not just able to roam the streets, he stays in presidential suites, he lives the high life (as far as money is concerned, not so much public opinion). Why isn't he facing justice? Because he runs the grand old US of A? Becuase Might makes Right?

Let's look at bill clinton or tony blair. They commited many war crimes in the Balkan wars but are they facing justice? Hell no, they are free as birds, able to enjoy their retirement even though during their reign in government they we're responsible for the deaths of many Serbs in the Bosnia and Kosovo campaigns.


I am a regular reader of the news and comments here on B92 and yours seem very pragmatic and practical and I support that way of thinking (I know many serbs and albos here get very emotional and make comments based on such things). However if you believe that by taking Rado to court, be it in Belgrade, the Hague or whatever do you really think that is going to make anything better for the citizens of Serbia? Is it going to draw more investments?

Is the IT company in Britan that needs some work outsourced to another country (e.g. Serbia) going to care whether the nation is refusing to hand over a 60+ year old man or will they be more interested in whether that nations' IT companies are competent and able to do a good job at a competitive price? I would imagine the latter would matter more (hehe I'm a software engineer by profession so its a natural example for me to use :)

The EU is closed, at least until the Lisbon Treaty gets in force which who knows how long that may take. So if this was an attempt by Tadic to get closer to EU, I'm sorry but it is fatal. Also, even though basiaclly all the big parties wont recognise Kosovo, Brussels implicitly demands that this is the case before entry. So even if Serbia hands over Karadzic and Mladic, there will still be the Kosovo recognition issue to stall the engine. Serbia needs to slow its political engine down and attract as much investment as possible (be it from the west or east) well this is what the government that cares for its citizens would do... which is rarely if ever the case.

By far the best news I read today is the one pertaining the building of an IT park in Serbia. This is excellent news, this is real news (when reading news regarding politics one always has to be careful and often think twice about what is bieng said and what the real story is) and I hope to see more of the kind in the future.

Cheers,