Parliament adjourned for two weeks

Yet further delays, how predictable.

When parties whole philosophy is to avoid work, delay, obstruct, criticise and conserve (the good and the bad) one has to expect this.

I think the current proud record holder of the filibuster is, not surprisingly, Aleksandar Vucic who spoke for three hours. I'm sure whatever he had to say was of absolutely vital importance, but no thanks.

Perhaps a parliamentary special act should be introduced to avoid this type of delay in matters of national importance.

Its high time that parliament in Serbia had more teeth to deal with deliberate and unconstructive delays. Whlst we are at it a new law, with harsh sanctions, could be brought in to ban slander and name calling as well.

It is not a kafana, its a place of work. The sooner some politicians are forced to recognise this, the better.

yeah, right, the same "party" that - by buying parts of sps - perverted their loss to parliamentary elections and the will of the MAJORITY in serbia, gives now some democratic lessons?

the same "party" that - via dulic - acted as if the skupstina is private property?

the same "party" that allowed dinkic - without electorate - again into skupstina/imunity is "protecting" tax-payers-money?

the nedic-pokret doesn´t have to give anybody lessons, just to enjoy the few weeks in power.

Very smart, get away for next to weeks to avoid dealing with new wave of recogniton of Kosova. Ej, who said that polticians are not smart?

Yes, the same party that has put the Belgrade assembly on hold for months and intends to keep it that way until it figures out a way to obtain power.

The opposition needs to hold off and even completely prevent the SAA ratification. That is in Serbia's vital interest.

Come on bganon, you are not in a position to claim the high ground.

Whilst we all like to have a dig at the 'opposition' group, I'm disappointed that nobody has made an effort to look at the real issue at stake.

Do the SRS concerns about breaches of proceedure have any substance?

If they do not, and they are simply mischievious attempts to prevent the workings of parliament, they should be rightly condemned.

On the otherhand, if they do hold merit, we should be looking rather closely at who and why these breaches of proceedure have occured rather than simply dismissing them out of hand.

If you don't bother to listen to the speeches, then you will have no idea whether Serbian democracy is being hijacked by the SRS or the DS lead government!

ZK of course I am in a position to claim the high ground.

I am not a politician and will not defend the actions of politicians I disagree with. This is just another sad attempt to use any excuse to delay and obstruct. If Serbia wanted delays and obstruction it would not have voted the way it did, rather it choose different policies.

Willie on past record I think its pretty obvious which party is in the wrong here. My old man used to tell me a story about crying wolf. When all your (one's)credibility is used up, when you are defeated, then you start talking about democratic procedure.

I've wasted far too much time listening to speeches of politicians like Vucic. All very well for you to say that by not listening we don't know the merits, but I see you don't know either! Is that because you suspect their arguments on this (SRDSS - the new superparty of the right) are a waste of time - as I do?

Lets get on with it and stop this endless procrastination and bad loosing mentality.

No, perhaps I'm wrong but I see it as ZK sees it - they are only trying to obstruct the SAA and the others are only trying to get it passed. Matters of procedure are a red herring.

Now we have to wait another 2 weeks. Ho hum, for the country that only waits.....

If Serbia wanted delays and obstruction it would not have voted the way it did, rather it choose different policies.
(bganon, 21 July 2008 18:48)
--
Serbia made its voice very clear! If one party had not deceived its voter base and otherwise been bought out then we wouldn't be in this position.

I didn't hear a word from you when the DS decided to delay Belgrade for months - in fact I heard words of support from you.

Now when the tables have turned you find it appropriate to complain. Double standards are the norm these days. Right?

Willie, democracy has been hijacked a long time ago, not only in Serbia but pretty much the whole world. When someone like Dacic (SPS) admits tycoons offered him millions to destroy Kostunica then that speak for itself.

Hello bganon,

My previous post was not directed at you - but was a general comment where I deliberatly took no sides.

I also have no interest in listening to Vucic et al, for they are all as bad as one another. As I said before, I'm not THAT interested in domestic Serbian politics - the international aspect is more my angle.

But my point still stands. Does the SRS criticism hold any merit?

It's naive to jump on a criticism bandwagon - either bandwagon - without know what it is that your criticising.

ZK all parties deceive their voter base to some degree, so no change there.
(bganon, 21 July 2008 21:52)
--
Yes bganon, you are correct, we all get deceived to a certain degree but 180 degrees? That is not normal and is basically pure deception coming from the SPS. But hey, nothing surprising there really.

As Abraham Lincoln once said "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."

Willie, I am not particularly familiar with Serbian politics but I can smell sell-outs a mile away - and this new government is exactly that!

Democracy in this world is simply a myth. The world dictators use it to control the people and take over nations as far as I'm concerned.

However, ignorance is bliss!

Hello ZK UK,

I feel you're a little out of touch with the realities in Serbia at the moment.

The entire political mess that we now see ourselves caught up in is a direct result of ordinary Serbs convincing themselves that they understand what is happening around them, but quite unable to see through the smoke and mirrors rhetoric put out by the various political parties.

ZK all parties deceive their voter base to some degree, so no change there.

What I find interesting is the fact that you thought that SPS were previously a party of integrity, even though its clear what SPS rule has meant for Serbia and its people. So now they have changed 'sides'. Big wow! Just a continuation in their lack of principle from the start. But lets forget about the decade they ruined the country and focus on this.... Or perhaps you might start to take more seriously the claims on just how much SPS ruined this country in the past? That ruin, I might add, is a lot more serious than what the current lot have done and, as you know, led to international troops being stationed in sovereign Serbian territory.
Let me be as clear as crystal. SPS are careerist trash, always were. God knows that lot were born with (red) silver spoons in their mouths , nicely jumping ship from the Communists to SPS. But, and its a big but, there is a chance that they can become a serious party of the left. So I'll put my fingers on my nose...


I have made no surprise of my belief that anything is preferable to DSS / SRS rule. I firmly believe that this alliance would have hurt the economy and set back Serbia on a number of levels. My belief is the same at Belgrade level. So lets not get wide eyed about my belief that this alliance is the worst option for the town I live in.

And I've never made any secret of the fact that a DS led government means abandoning the hold still, or retreat course on reform. Its time to rev up the car and press the accelerator to the floor. The passenger who only backseat drives, keeps screaming to slam on the brakes, or to put her in reverse has now been ejected. And thank god for that. That is my genuine belief and you probably won't find a more cynical or individualist approach than mine.

'But my point still stands. Does the SRS criticism hold any merit?'

Willie, unless you find out what the criticism is, there isn't really much point in our discussing the issue. I am not going to waste my time finding out and I am not going check and recheck every single opinion I have every hour of every day to make sure some variables have not changed. It isn't even workable let alone desirable.

For the time being SRS / DSS are a waste of space. I hope they will reform in the future. DSS have to drop Kostunica and increase party democracy. SRS have still to reform. In the meantime my opinion is that we have the least worst option in the driving seat. For the moment I'm not grumbling.

Hello bganon,

You wrote, "unless you find out what the criticism is, there isn't really much point in our discussing the issue."

The criticism is your words in the first post at the top of this page.

You have chosen to criticise SRS tactics in parliament without even knowing what you're criticising - other than the fact that anything connected with SRS should be criticised and anything concerning DS should be praised and supported.

Just seems a little blinkered to me.

I am a simple mind, with a simple brain. If I was the leader of a majority, and a minority was blocking the daily work with protests of "breach on procedures", I would simply let the opposition have it their way. Let them put together an agenda, with the issues they thought were important, and put it all to vote. Once the minority gets their agenda approved, there can be no more claim of breach of parliamentary procedure - they will have accepted that the current parliament is valid, that the members are duely elected etc.

Start the voting on the issues, and if they are a minority, the results should be clear. And in any case, now that any questions about procedures has been effectively put in the grave, the majority can quickly come up with their own agenda, and possibly reverse any decision voted on previously.

End of story - if it wasn't for the big egos of some people...

Yet further delays, how predictable.

When parties whole philosophy is to avoid work, delay, obstruct, criticise and conserve (the good and the bad) one has to expect this.

I think the current proud record holder of the filibuster is, not surprisingly, Aleksandar Vucic who spoke for three hours. I'm sure whatever he had to say was of absolutely vital importance, but no thanks.

Perhaps a parliamentary special act should be introduced to avoid this type of delay in matters of national importance.

Its high time that parliament in Serbia had more teeth to deal with deliberate and unconstructive delays. Whlst we are at it a new law, with harsh sanctions, could be brought in to ban slander and name calling as well.

It is not a kafana, its a place of work. The sooner some politicians are forced to recognise this, the better.

Very smart, get away for next to weeks to avoid dealing with new wave of recogniton of Kosova. Ej, who said that polticians are not smart?

ZK of course I am in a position to claim the high ground.

I am not a politician and will not defend the actions of politicians I disagree with. This is just another sad attempt to use any excuse to delay and obstruct. If Serbia wanted delays and obstruction it would not have voted the way it did, rather it choose different policies.

Willie on past record I think its pretty obvious which party is in the wrong here. My old man used to tell me a story about crying wolf. When all your (one's)credibility is used up, when you are defeated, then you start talking about democratic procedure.

I've wasted far too much time listening to speeches of politicians like Vucic. All very well for you to say that by not listening we don't know the merits, but I see you don't know either! Is that because you suspect their arguments on this (SRDSS - the new superparty of the right) are a waste of time - as I do?

Lets get on with it and stop this endless procrastination and bad loosing mentality.

No, perhaps I'm wrong but I see it as ZK sees it - they are only trying to obstruct the SAA and the others are only trying to get it passed. Matters of procedure are a red herring.

Now we have to wait another 2 weeks. Ho hum, for the country that only waits.....

yeah, right, the same "party" that - by buying parts of sps - perverted their loss to parliamentary elections and the will of the MAJORITY in serbia, gives now some democratic lessons?

the same "party" that - via dulic - acted as if the skupstina is private property?

the same "party" that allowed dinkic - without electorate - again into skupstina/imunity is "protecting" tax-payers-money?

the nedic-pokret doesn´t have to give anybody lessons, just to enjoy the few weeks in power.

Yes, the same party that has put the Belgrade assembly on hold for months and intends to keep it that way until it figures out a way to obtain power.

The opposition needs to hold off and even completely prevent the SAA ratification. That is in Serbia's vital interest.

Come on bganon, you are not in a position to claim the high ground.

Whilst we all like to have a dig at the 'opposition' group, I'm disappointed that nobody has made an effort to look at the real issue at stake.

Do the SRS concerns about breaches of proceedure have any substance?

If they do not, and they are simply mischievious attempts to prevent the workings of parliament, they should be rightly condemned.

On the otherhand, if they do hold merit, we should be looking rather closely at who and why these breaches of proceedure have occured rather than simply dismissing them out of hand.

If you don't bother to listen to the speeches, then you will have no idea whether Serbian democracy is being hijacked by the SRS or the DS lead government!

If Serbia wanted delays and obstruction it would not have voted the way it did, rather it choose different policies.
(bganon, 21 July 2008 18:48)
--
Serbia made its voice very clear! If one party had not deceived its voter base and otherwise been bought out then we wouldn't be in this position.

I didn't hear a word from you when the DS decided to delay Belgrade for months - in fact I heard words of support from you.

Now when the tables have turned you find it appropriate to complain. Double standards are the norm these days. Right?

Willie, democracy has been hijacked a long time ago, not only in Serbia but pretty much the whole world. When someone like Dacic (SPS) admits tycoons offered him millions to destroy Kostunica then that speak for itself.

Hello bganon,

My previous post was not directed at you - but was a general comment where I deliberatly took no sides.

I also have no interest in listening to Vucic et al, for they are all as bad as one another. As I said before, I'm not THAT interested in domestic Serbian politics - the international aspect is more my angle.

But my point still stands. Does the SRS criticism hold any merit?

It's naive to jump on a criticism bandwagon - either bandwagon - without know what it is that your criticising.

Hello ZK UK,

I feel you're a little out of touch with the realities in Serbia at the moment.

The entire political mess that we now see ourselves caught up in is a direct result of ordinary Serbs convincing themselves that they understand what is happening around them, but quite unable to see through the smoke and mirrors rhetoric put out by the various political parties.

ZK all parties deceive their voter base to some degree, so no change there.

What I find interesting is the fact that you thought that SPS were previously a party of integrity, even though its clear what SPS rule has meant for Serbia and its people. So now they have changed 'sides'. Big wow! Just a continuation in their lack of principle from the start. But lets forget about the decade they ruined the country and focus on this.... Or perhaps you might start to take more seriously the claims on just how much SPS ruined this country in the past? That ruin, I might add, is a lot more serious than what the current lot have done and, as you know, led to international troops being stationed in sovereign Serbian territory.
Let me be as clear as crystal. SPS are careerist trash, always were. God knows that lot were born with (red) silver spoons in their mouths , nicely jumping ship from the Communists to SPS. But, and its a big but, there is a chance that they can become a serious party of the left. So I'll put my fingers on my nose...


I have made no surprise of my belief that anything is preferable to DSS / SRS rule. I firmly believe that this alliance would have hurt the economy and set back Serbia on a number of levels. My belief is the same at Belgrade level. So lets not get wide eyed about my belief that this alliance is the worst option for the town I live in.

And I've never made any secret of the fact that a DS led government means abandoning the hold still, or retreat course on reform. Its time to rev up the car and press the accelerator to the floor. The passenger who only backseat drives, keeps screaming to slam on the brakes, or to put her in reverse has now been ejected. And thank god for that. That is my genuine belief and you probably won't find a more cynical or individualist approach than mine.

'But my point still stands. Does the SRS criticism hold any merit?'

Willie, unless you find out what the criticism is, there isn't really much point in our discussing the issue. I am not going to waste my time finding out and I am not going check and recheck every single opinion I have every hour of every day to make sure some variables have not changed. It isn't even workable let alone desirable.

For the time being SRS / DSS are a waste of space. I hope they will reform in the future. DSS have to drop Kostunica and increase party democracy. SRS have still to reform. In the meantime my opinion is that we have the least worst option in the driving seat. For the moment I'm not grumbling.

Hello bganon,

You wrote, "unless you find out what the criticism is, there isn't really much point in our discussing the issue."

The criticism is your words in the first post at the top of this page.

You have chosen to criticise SRS tactics in parliament without even knowing what you're criticising - other than the fact that anything connected with SRS should be criticised and anything concerning DS should be praised and supported.

Just seems a little blinkered to me.

ZK all parties deceive their voter base to some degree, so no change there.
(bganon, 21 July 2008 21:52)
--
Yes bganon, you are correct, we all get deceived to a certain degree but 180 degrees? That is not normal and is basically pure deception coming from the SPS. But hey, nothing surprising there really.

As Abraham Lincoln once said "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."

Willie, I am not particularly familiar with Serbian politics but I can smell sell-outs a mile away - and this new government is exactly that!

Democracy in this world is simply a myth. The world dictators use it to control the people and take over nations as far as I'm concerned.

However, ignorance is bliss!

I am a simple mind, with a simple brain. If I was the leader of a majority, and a minority was blocking the daily work with protests of "breach on procedures", I would simply let the opposition have it their way. Let them put together an agenda, with the issues they thought were important, and put it all to vote. Once the minority gets their agenda approved, there can be no more claim of breach of parliamentary procedure - they will have accepted that the current parliament is valid, that the members are duely elected etc.

Start the voting on the issues, and if they are a minority, the results should be clear. And in any case, now that any questions about procedures has been effectively put in the grave, the majority can quickly come up with their own agenda, and possibly reverse any decision voted on previously.

End of story - if it wasn't for the big egos of some people...