Wednesday, 16.07.2008.
10:53
Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić says that he expects Serbia to continue to cooperate with Russia on the international scene.
Izvor: FoNet
IMAGE SOURCE
pre 15 godina
Peter Seduka. Albanian culture, is unique, is based on old traditions of illirians, has its own language, music, dances, traditional rythem and so on. You have no clue on what you talking about. Is like me saying, polish culture is closer to german then slavic. Wrong
pre 15 godina
PRN, that was the best Albanian history leason I ever had. Well, probably all comeing from the "Albanian" history book. BEN & PRN, please show me where I can read about all these great people that have Albanian blood in them. To the Serb camp here me included. We can argue till were blue in the face and these people will pull history out of their ears. Just like in Kosovo they prevoke us and we by defending ourselfs argue till no end because we know we are right. Let them have their say with fales facts that was taught to them from only their version of history. The world and Serbs know our history and they know theirs. It's all Albanian propaganda here to try to get under our skin. And I love it. They try so hard to push that propaganda on us that it make me LOL! Keep it comeing guys.
pre 15 godina
Ben,
"…..WE DO … LIVE IN A ….. DEEP in the lands controled by the ROMAN empire and first neighbors with GREEKS. BOTH OF THEM WOULD HAVE NOTICED THE "ARRIVAL" of Albanians- as they DID FOR SLAVS. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ON THIS and NOTHING HAVE SAID- for OBVIOUS reason. …"
Yes, exactly to the point, they had nothing to say about you for very obvious reason - you were not there.
You, Albanians can believe that you are living on Balkans for many thousands of years, that you are descendants of Ilirians, that you developed western civilization and who knows what else, but that doesn't mean this is actually a true.
This Ilirian theory was first formulated by the Austrian court historians, (with very specific geo - political goal in mind …), in the late 1880's. During Turkish time you didn't have Albanian identity, but Turkish.. Your propaganda turned history on it's had. You are claiming that you were victims of some kind of permanent genocide that Serbs were committed against you through the centuries. In reality, just oposite was the case - when you converted to Islam, you become privileged class in Ottoman Empire. You were systematically oppressing and terrorizing Christians, Serbs in the first place, for centuries. Muslim identity and top position in the Ottoman hierarchy, (you had more than forty Grand Vezirs), allowed Albanians to colonize Kosovo by cleansing the Serbs.
Albanian nationalist elites Albanian nationalism and hatred towards Serbs was motivated by the desire of your nationalist elite to keep their privileged position above the Serbs.
Albanian scholars interested in thruth:
http://www.geocities.com/aia_skenderbeg/albanian_sources.html
P. S. I see that you love to use capital letters. It has a similar effect as shouting. Do you think that it makes your massege more effective? Please, use less shouting and more arguments….
Mirek, you are right to point religion, Catholicism versus Orthodox Christianity, as a major division factor among the Slavs. This factor decides our loyalties. We, Serbs, feel very strongly connected with a Greece and Russia because of this major part of our identity. Catholic Slavs are loyal to Vatican. These are the facts. But to say that Catholic Slavs doesn't have anything in common with Orthodox Slavs is overstatement to put it mildly. Despite our quarrels and often, ehm, how would I say, complicated history, a lot of time that passed sinds our migrations, exposure to different foreign cultures and mixing with other races, we still have a lot in common. Our similarities are obvious to any neutral observer. For example Serbs and Croats speak same language. (Many Croat nationalists will insist their language is different, but they understand Serbs perfectly never the less …).
We Serbs, are very aware of our common heritage and feel closeness also with you, western Slavs…
pre 15 godina
ben
To finally put your argument to rest, I will print out your glaring inaccuracies in black and white for all to see:
"5. Saint ALBANI is another example of the contribution of Albanians in teh WESTERN CIVILISATION- you are Christians thanks to him. "
- Pope Clement XI was born on July 23, 1649 and died on March 19, 1721.
- Poles were among the last Slavs to be Christianized and this was in the year 966.
So please tell me how in the world could have Slavs become Christian thanks to Pope Albani if the Poles were Christianized 683 years before the Pope was even born?
"6. Scanderbeg is ILLUSTRE personality of the WESTERN CULTURE- you can here VIVALDI, look to teh portraits of Rembrandt, and meet him in MANY MANY operas of the FRENCH, ENGLISH, ITALIAN, GERMAN and (Czechand POLISH too) authors=WESTERN. HE was named by POPE the defender of Christianize- NOT a SERB or POLISH. "
I have never seen a portrait of Skenderbeg anywhere, be it in Poland, Germany or the Netherlands, be it in museums, operas or theaters, and he is not half as important to the world of Christianity as you make him out to be, especially not like Poland's Jan III Sobieski led the Holy League (Poland-Lithuania, Austria, Saxony, Bavaria, Franconia and Swabia) to the most decisive victory over the Turks at the gates of Vienna in 1683, the battle which brought about the greatest turn of the tide against the Ottoman Empire. Since that victory, they became weaker and weaker until they fell apart. Skenderbeg, while a brave fighter, achieved nothing as great.
"7. POPE Clemente XI is another personality (100 million Germans have only today their FIRST Pope) "
Your point? Pope John Paul II (born Karol Wojty³a in Wadowice, POLAND) was sometimes called the greatest Pope of all time, and guess what, he was Polish too.
Your Byzantine and Illyrian arguments I will not go into, because Albanians claiming these civilizations as their own would be like me as a Pole claiming German, Sarmatian, Hungarian, Lithuanian and Russian as my own too.
I hope I have made my point.
pre 15 godina
So many Illyrians but not one Iliya amongst them.
Your arrival in the lands of Rashka was on the coat tails of the Ottomans. I can advise you that Albania, like Croatia like Greece are Latin renditions for these regions. The people identify themselves as Shqyptars, Horvats and Hellenes respectively.
Depending on whether you subscribe to a world history according to encyclopedia Britannica or Germanica or whatever you can make your own conclusions when these people were first mentioned on these lands
Rasci was the name by which the Serbians were known and referred to by the Latins before the arrival of the Ottomans. The land of Rashka was distinctly Serbian.
I can also advise you that your UDI is nothing more than you exercising your perceived squatting rights over Serbian land. This may be acceptable in some legal jurisdictions around the world but certainly it is not a right anywhere where the legal owners are still present.
Your attempt to exterminate the Serbs and their culture from their ancestral lands has come to nothing. It was close but by any reckoning you have definitely played all your cards and all of them prematurely.
The world politic changes and yes it will change as sure as night turns to day.
The great human migration supposedly came out of Africa, into Asia and then into Europe. There are other theories but this matters not.
The question is not what culture is best or which is worth preserving over another. These are dynamic features. It is much easier to recognize which cultures are on a one way path to self destruction. This cannot be achieved by invasion alone.
I know who I have my money on.
Don’t believe me just look at your no brainer history books that you subscribe to and all will agree that when the Mongols and Manchus invaded China they became Chinese, just as the Hellenes and Romans came to ancient Egypt they took on Egypt’s universal religion, the idea of heavenly rule over the world and sacred science, and when the hordes later came to Rome, the same, or when the hordes came to Ancient Egypt, Babylon etc. The legacy of superior culture always prevails no matter what the name the rose goes by.
Europe was the domain of the Neanderthal shamans and their legacy is so profound that it is everywhere but not obvious to most people. This is the same with the later ancient cultures of southern Europe which developed during the last ice age.
How much do today’s Albanians inherit from these ancients cultures is at best minimal and at worst zero? Your attempts to look for answers beyond how you live your everyday lives is laughable so the answer is simple and requires no stories from grandfathers or blood tests or whatever is fashionable today.
Simply look in the mirror.
pre 15 godina
Mirek:
Its very clear to me the difference between Catholic and Orthodox Slavs- it is PETER that is “dancing” between with his ambiguity.
I was just answering to Peter with teh same tone that he uses.
Anyhow, OUR imprint in the WESTERN civilization is HUGE and LIVE.
1. there are NO PROVES that we have emigrated in EUROPE- NOT EVEN ONE document that proves that.
And it would be quite strange since WE DO NOT LIVE IN A CORNER OF EUROPE and BALKAn but DEEP in the lands controled by the ROMAN empire and first neighbors with GREEKS. BOTH OF THEM WOULD HAVE NOTICED THE "ARRIVAL" of Albanians- as they DID FOR SLAVS. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ON THIS and NOTHING HAVE SAID- for OBVIOUS reason.
2. DIOCELECIAN and other emperors of Illyrian origin are not PERIFERAL figures and even less NON European and WESTERN.
3. CONSTANTINE THE GREAT is not peripheral man of the WESTERN Civilisation- HE IS THE IKON of teh western civilisation and religion.
4. Constantine’s COUSIN Julian found PRISTINA=priSHtina and SKUPI=SHkupi in modern Albania- not Warsaw or Prague. The change of S in SH is typical of teh Albanian language like SKODRA in SHKODRA etc. You don't need further info on JULIAN and his reforms and THE LAW on which THE WESTERN CIVUILISATION IS BASED today.
WITH point 2 and 3 I ANSWER TO THE CONCERNS OF ALBANIANS HAVING TO DO WITH BYZANTIUM OR NOT.
OUR TODAY FLAG IS BYSANTIAN- but you ignore this facts and still pretend to SPEAK AND PREACH.
5. Saint ALBANI is another example of the contribution of Albanians in teh WESTERN CIVILISATION- you are Christians thanks to him.
6. Scanderbeg is ILLUSTRE personality of the WESTERN CULTURE- you can here VIVALDI, look to teh portraits of Rembrandt, and meet him in MANY MANY operas of the FRENCH, ENGLISH, ITALIAN, GERMAN and (Czechand POLISH too) authors=WESTERN. HE was named by POPE the defender of Christianize- NOT a SERB or POLISH.
7. POPE Clemente XI is another personality (100 million Germans have only today their FIRST Pope)
8. MOTHER THERESA is not peripheral figure in the WESTERN CIVILISATION
I can cite here other "minor" names but I guess for a reasonable for a ‘good people’ as you say WOULD BE ENAOUGH.
It is not a prepotency to say this: but NOT MANY NATIONS can claim SUCH PERSONALITIES.
To say that this NATION is NOT WESTERN=EUROPEAN is a pure IDIOTIC statement.
YOU CAN ALSO watch teh MAP- WE ALBANIANS are in teh WESTERN Balkans also FISICALY in teh EAST and NORTH EAST we have Slavs as neighbors.
If you cover yourself with PREJUDICES sooner or letter you will find your self to be a RACIST.
Albanian Culture was NEVER in the CORNER of the WESTERN civilization it is the ignorance of the people like yours dear Mirek that puts it there.
P.S. for a fair and honest debate I ask b92 to publish also my previous post and not censure- I use the words and STYLE that people here use in INSULTING Albanians. Just answer with the same STYLE.
pre 15 godina
Ben & the others,
I'm not going to go into your claim that today's Albania has something to do with Western culture. It is clearly a nonsense and there are absolutely no facts supporting your claim (in the same way anyone in Euro-Asian area could claim 'their bit' in contributing to the West, and, at least in a way it is so, doesn't mean those nations have anything common with the West as such today though...).
What I want to write about here today is your twisted concept of 'Slavs'. You probably ahve an idea there is a sort of 'Panslavism' that some people may have tried (and failed) to foster in the past. Put simply - it's a nonsense, not smaller than your 'western' claims. There is nothing like that. Countries like Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Slovenia, Croatia have nothing to do culturally with Russia, Belarus and most of the Slavic Balkans. Our culture is (and always was - even during communism/socialism) western, based on Catholicism or Protestantism and historically belonging to the Holy Roman Empire & thus Western Christianity. You can mention our languages - yes they are Slavic-based, but they belong to the group called 'Western-Slavic' languages (Czech, Polish, Slovak, Slovenian). What our clear identity is we are Central Europeans, not Eastern Europeans (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, most of Balkans, incl. all Orthodox countries, incl. Greece). There is a huge difference between us and Eastern Christians and our cultures. So if anyone tries to put all 'Slavic' people into one basket they simply don't know what they are talking about. If you still don't believe, consider this - Prague had been THE capital of the West for a few centuries, being the seat of the Holy Roman Emperor (approzimately bet. 14th & 16th centuries). All good historians know that. So if anyone in Europe, outside the obvious Western Europe, can claim they do and always have belonged to the West it's Central Europe, not South-Eastern Europe or beyond. Hope this is a good information for you. All the Best to All good people.
pre 15 godina
It is appalling to read and hear to what extent history can be manipulated.
Dear Serbian friends, ... when I say something about history of my country I mean it as I have full proof.
My Grandfather was born in Nis (today's Serbia) and his father and grandfather too, before being wiped out with 100,000s of other Albanians between late 19th and very early years of 20th century.
The Albanian families that forcibly sent in Kosovo (and TUrkey) were nicknamed and EVEN today are
called "Muhaxher"...
Does any SERB historian knows this....?
Ben is Right when he points out what we have delivered to the Western civiliastion.
Albanians left a mark in the civilisation of many countries.
Alexander the Great, Constantine the Great, Kemajl Attaturk, to the former leaders of Egypt Jordan HAD ONE THING IN COMMEN, they ALL HAD ALBANIAN BLOOD.
I could continue further I thing is pointless, as Serbian propaganda in Serbia supersedes the TRUTH.
Hope the above is clear.
pre 15 godina
I am just so glad that serbia and mother russia are such strong and fervent allies, on so many levels. i was just reading this nice little article stating that in an ongoing Russian contest to determine the "greatest russian," it remains a tight race between Czar Nicholas II (eventually executed by the Bolsheviks) and Joseph Stalin (who executed everyone including fellow Bolsheviks.) the "greatest" russians! i shudder to think who might be voted the greatest Serbian...
Now, as for some possibly overstated claims about the Illyrians, yes, i do think some of this is a tad overdone. but what do you expect when albanians are attacked and put down, day after day, in the silliest and nastiest ways. and this is just accepted as "normal." by whom?? so place the burden of guilt where it is due...
roberto/frisco
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Russia and Serbia have one thing in common: both are *losers* of the Cold War…
pre 15 godina
"It is absolutely clear to us that a Serbs can count on teh support of their Slavic brothers as they do and did but this will NEVER discourage us from fighting this Asian culture to preserve our identity.|It is absolutely clear to us that a Serbs can count on teh support of their Slavic brothers as they do and did but this will NEVER discourage us from fighting this Asian culture to preserve our identity."
"So please try to control you xenophobia and think and think again before writing non senses."
Well, as a typical Asiatic Slav that I am, I am impressed by the non xenophobic respect that you have for us and our Asiatic culture. Clearly, you are a representative of a great and tolerant civilization....
pre 15 godina
ben
Firstly, ben, please stop claiming Contantine and anything to do with Byzantium as Albanian. That would be like me claiming the achievements of Wit Stworsz or Jan Heweliusz as Polish because they were born in Poland (except then under German/Prussian rule). There is no way you can link Byzantium to Albania, like I cannot link Poland to Bismarck's Germany/Prussia..
Secondly, the Russian achievements were only the ones involving space. The Polish ones I mentioned were Mikolaj Kopernik (father of modern astronomy and founder of today's concept of our solar system) and Maria Curie-Sklodowska (revolutionary research culminating in the concept of radioactivity). You want more Poles? Ignacy Lukasiewicz, created the conept and started the first oil industry (as well as the first kerosene and parafin lamps). Guess who created kevlar as well... all Poles. In any case, the argument was about all Slavs, not just Poles, so I gave more than just Polish examples.
Finally, Western culture was born in Rome and Greece, no one ever mentioned Byzantium, Illyrium, let alone Albania as being as important or profound.
arti
The only thing ben did was to attack the Slavs, and all I did was defend. You would do the same.
pre 15 godina
Ben, you are not direct desendents of the Illyrans. That I read, a mear spin off the Illyran tree mixed with other ethnicities, But not true Illyran. Serbs were Serb And still are Serbs. Illyran, to a tribe that sounds like Albanian to, We are Albanian and invented the world and our land is all of Europe, Slavs this and Slavs that... You guys sound like a broken record. All we Serbs say is that Kosovo is Serbian and we left our mark there, untill you guys tried to wipe it off the Serbian Kosovo map. You say all of balkans is Albanian because of the Illyrans, Funny how a people work so hard and the Albanians try to take credit for it. It's funny how the Albanian version of history is diffrent from the countries that suround you. OOPS! Sorry You guys invented history. Every people has their people that put a mark on history including you guys, but when you guys turn others into being albanian just to bump up your mark in history, now that grabbing at straws just to out do someone outside of you history ring and to prove false facts. You sound pretty smart, why don't you put those brains into makeing peace in the Balkans instead of trying to prove to us that your Albanian propaganda is true. Good luck, FIFA won't even say you a independent country. Shouldn't have cut any corners when declairing independence. RES 1244, Kosovo is AND STILL Serbian
pre 15 godina
Thats funny Ben Because we did the same against the Turks and here we are Christian Serbs unlike muslim Albanians. But anyway maybe you and PRN should pick up a history book some day and read the true history of Europe not your grandfathers version of Europes history. Third world compeared to who, The the Albanians, please you still have tribes and blood feuds. Albanians made us Christians now thats good. What a joke. And the albanians taught the Serbs how to write, another joke. Western way of life started with the Greeks not the illyrans, and definetly not the albanians. Again read a book and don't rely on grand dad's history leasons. Have a nice day profesor Ben. And THANK YOU Peter Sudyka.
pre 15 godina
(Peter Sudyka, 16 July 2008 13:51)
Peter,I don't think that you need to ask as Albanians regarding the feeling towards russia.( not to all slavic nation though,don't get me wrong ).Russia historicaly has been the bigest suporter of serbia,of course due to their strategic interest too.
I'm sure ur smart enough to know what I'm talking about so there's no need to go into the details.
(Peter Sudyka, 16 July 2008 16:22
Yes, Belarus and Russia are close culturally to Poland, so is the West. We speak an Eastern language, practice a Western religion and culturally we are inbetween. If you classify Albania as the West, then you must be delusional, because Mosques, poverty, crime and lack of infrastructure are not Western traits at all.
Resp:
I'm sure that ur familiar with the saying " what goes around comes back around" ? you country too was in the conditions that we're today and partially still is,West witch today is a pride word to many of as due to todays economic development, mediterranian was the same to your ancenstors if they would be lucky enough to have been classified as one.
You're right about mosques in Albania,We got plenty of them,chatolic and orthodox churches too,We got no problem with people's belief,you guys try to tag as turks,arabs God knows what just because our religion,on the other hand you forget the roots of your own religion,I cannot understand how that can happen,they both come from the same region,it's like you mentioned in the above comment about the diference betwen sllavs,it's no different.
I wish that your future comments are more subtancial than the today's one,or maybe I should blame at Ben,he really brought up the real Peter.:)
peace to all
pre 15 godina
"…. everyone who vainfully tries to split the Serbs and the Russians is an enemy for the Serbs…"
Yes, we have a lot of enemies. But don't worry, they can't succeed, our ties are much to deep and strong…. We are grateful for your present support and we will never forget your previous support, in some of the most difficult periods of our history.
It's a pity that we can't elect V. Putin for our president.
pre 15 godina
(Mirek London/Prague, 16 July 2008 17:17)
Mirek you should read my post in the light of Peters #
7.
Than you will have the real motive to laugh.
He mentions great names of the western culture as they are nothing and than starts ‘fishing’ around. From being Polish he starts to claim the merits of Russians- a complete confusion on his national identity.
He pretends to know the history but forgets facts of the European and world’s history linked with the Albanians. He misses to recognize the contribution of the Albanians to the western empires and particularly misses to mention Constantine the Great- born Kosovar that lived in Berat (central Albania( where he become Christian before becoming an emperor and declare the Christianity as official religion of Roman empire.
He ignores completely facts that the second greatest baptistery of the Roman empire after Constantinople was in Albania- his ignorance will place it in the middle east.
I will not stay here to list names and figures of the Albanian culture. Peter already made a short list.
What I would like to highlight is this: take only the Peter’s ‘short list’ and try to make a similar list for other nations- weighting them. Try to make a similar list for your nation- in this case Polish and compare it with ours. Compare this ‘short list’ with other 6-7 million European nations see if you can make it.
You cannot change facts dear Peter: the western culture has teh roots in teh Mediterranean- where we Albanians live for millenniums- not in Poland or Russia.
Last time our Peter said that Albanians are not blonds hence they are for him more middle east people- ignoring or deliberately forgetting to think about other European mediterraneans: Greeks, Italians, Spanish, Portugese, Catalans, Corsicans etc… are they Europeans for you xenophobic standards Peter?
The facts that you Mirek and Peter point out about poverty are result of teh isolation of teh Albanians form teh same west for centuries. This was truth until 1999 (if B92 would not cut my posts it would've been clear). Take a look of this speech fro this intelligent person and you will see what I mean
The independence of Kosova means above all for us Albanians and for educated Europeans a simple fact: Albanians you are Europeans as all other nations and you will be respected and will be equal among equals from now one.
pre 15 godina
veki
Strange as is but I totally agree with you. Moreover I know it for sure that not only Serbs are the victims but the Albanians as well.
Once disguided by the West after many promices for independence K-Albanians found thamselves entramped in the reservation with unclesr prospects. This autumn when dollar's collapse is expected the US may have no will or desire to take care of Kosovo. Only the God knows how soon the Europeans will start to change their views ... So K-Albanians are in nothing better situation than the Serbs.
You are right the Anglo-Saxon domination in the world for many nations mens merely hidden discriminations. But times they are changing and we shall see how the things run in a few years to come. One example : for many years NHL used to invite our ice-hockey players ignoring the existing Russian contracts. They were rich and cared little what we think or say. Today we started to do the same and they are shocked. Now our teams have much higher salaries and they do not care what NHL thinks when we buy their best players.
So best if the Albanians are ready for such developments and stop hiding behind NATO cause sooner or later you will have to deal with the Serbs. You are neighbours and none of you is going to settle on the Moon ... If other Albanians were so reasonable peace in the Balkans would be safer.
.
pre 15 godina
Ratko
D'you remember the song :
We shall overcome
We shall overcome
We shall overcome
Some day ...
Oh deep in my heart
I do believe that
We shall overcome
Some day !
Good luck !
pre 15 godina
ben with 26 recommandations
LOL!
what do Cyril and Methodius or even their disciple Clement of Ohrid have to do with your statement?!
Myself I thought that the heart of the western culture was Rome and its civilisation(itself adopting ancient greek elements), but if you say so ... :)
I too have the sensation that Mr Jeremic is starting to act like a jukebox, but, well, partially that's the job of a FM.
pre 15 godina
Jeremić: Russia is closest ally.
Good luck.
pre 15 godina
Ben, seriously, if you believe what you wrote I feel sorry for you man...wanted to react to your particular claims, but it just doesn't make sense, whole your 'comment' is made by a dreamy freak - like...
But one thing - if you are such a great nation (no matter if in Albania or Kosovo) tell me - how's that you are alternatively with Moldova THE poorest and THE least developed country in Europe, NOT having much to do with Europe anyway, but I'm now talking about infrastructure & the general degree of development? Is that because you have 'supposedly' the Illirian roots or what? Tell us, educate us, come on...why should we not have a laugh this afternoon?:)
Peter: your detestation towards Albanians is going out of control.
Historically, the contribution of teh Albanian culture to teh western culture is in no way comparable to your Polish or any other Slav nation- and you can also join forces if you wish. This is FACT. You are third world compared to us. Everything that you have is build on the culture of the ancient nations including Albanian. You write in Cyrillic because Byzantium made that possible for you. You are Christians because St. Albani in one side and on the other the Byzantium priests (of which many Albanians) made you Christians etc…
The heart of the WESTERN culture is in Mediterranean (including Albania) NOT in the SLAVIC conquered lands. So please try to control you xenophobia and think and think again before writing non senses.
FACT is that the same west to whom we BELONG and to which CULTURE was BORN also in our LAND.
In other words dear Peter: for me is MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer a i.e. a German than any other nation that you mentioned
BUT to YOU
RUSSIA and Belarus are MUCH MUCH more closer than Germans or other westerns nations. This is a FAct at least in your case dear pan-slavic defender.
Anyhow your stance and the one of Slovakia for e.g. is only making us Albanians a great honor- it tales the world that a small and ancient civiliasation is fighting with dignity to preserve HER CULTURE, from the much greater invader Slavic nation.
It is absolutely clear to us that a Serbs can count on teh support of their Slavic brothers as they do and did but this will NEVER discourage us from fighting this Asian culture to preserve our identity.
(ben, 16 July 2008 15:00)
pre 15 godina
to Oh Those Russians:
In Serbia we are very thankful for Russia's support. As you can see the alban jealousy is very evident...
pre 15 godina
It's great that Serbia's govt is keeping its strong relations with Russia, while at the same time pursuing closer EU ties. It definitely keeps more options open politically and economically.
As for some of the Albanian posters I'm not sure of why you've posted these types of comments here. I would encourage B92 to not post ridiculous comments since they do not help the dialogue.
For example look at this lol from Ben, "FACT is that the same west to whom we BELONG and to which CULTURE was BORN also in our LAND.
In other words dear Peter: for me is MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer a i.e. a German than any other nation that you mentioned"
pre 15 godina
ben
I used that argument towards PRN because his argument was one big stereotype, you obviously did not catch the hint in mine and your oversensitivity got the better of you. Calm down.
It's a waste of time to any reply to your statements, but just to correct you on a few things here:
"Historically, the contribution of teh Albanian culture to teh western culture is in no way comparable to your Polish or any other Slav nation- and you can also join forces if you wish. This is FACT. You are third world compared to us."
Historically, Albania has contributed nothing to world, apart from the Belushi brothers, Mother Teresa, Pope Albani and viagra... that's it. Slavs on the other hand, put the first satellite, man, woman and animal into space, discovered that the sun is the center of the universe and that other planets circle it, discovered the AC current, the concept of radioactivity and other massive contributions to science, art, music, literature and other things.
"Everything that you have is build on the culture of the ancient nations including Albanian. You write in Cyrillic because Byzantium made that possible for you. You are Christians because St. Albani in one side and on the other the Byzantium priests (of which many Albanians) made you Christians etc… "
Albanians claiming to be Byzantium is just hilarious! Illyrium I can still understand, but Byzantium too? Good lord! That would be like me claiming all the German, Austrian, Czech and Hungarian contributions to society just because we are in central Europe. See how foolish that sounds?
Pope Albani lived during the 17th Century, Slavs were Christianized over a thousand years before (some later, but no later than 1000 AD). Please read up on your history, because now you are embarassing yourself.
BTW Only Orthodox Slavs write in the Cyrillic alphabet. Catholic Slavs write in the Roman alphabet, or don't you know the difference? Oh wait, Albanians invented both ;)
"In other words dear Peter: for me is MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer a i.e. a German than any other nation that you mentioned "
Speak for yourself. No offense, but I have many German friends, and I highly doubt they would consider themselves closer to Albanians than to Slavs. While it is known that Germans are generally not fond of Slavs, they tend to lump Albanians in the same category as the Turks. Go to Germany and see what I mean.
"BUT to YOU
RUSSIA and Belarus are MUCH MUCH more closer than Germans or other westerns nations. "
Yes, Belarus and Russia are close culturally to Poland, so is the West. We speak an Eastern language, practice a Western religion and culturally we are inbetween. If you classify Albania as the West, then you must be delusional, because Mosques, poverty, crime and lack of infrastructure are not Western traits at all.
To conclude, try to get the gist of what I am writing first before exploding with such things as you wrote.
Regards
Piotr
pre 15 godina
ben
Ah yes, I forgot one great Albanian: Skenderbeg.
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PRN
Judging by your argument, Albania's culture definitely puts it closer to the Middle East, North Africa and Turkey than to Europe.
Also, apart from Aleksander Lukashenko's government, what do you have against Belarus? Come to think of it, what do you have against Russia's people as well?
(Peter Sudyka, 16 July 2008 13:51)
Dear Peter Sudyka,
I did not say that there is something wrong. On the contrary, it very right to have an union as they share many things together.
As for Albanians, we do have elements from various backgrounds (Middle East, Turkey etc) BUT that makes us more cosmopolitan...
pre 15 godina
Oh those Russians !
just want to say that I can't agree with you more.My stance is pro-russian , believeing that we really need each other (Serbia needs Russia more of course).
We have the same problem: the 'civilised' West is negatively biased against us.Whatever Russians do is always looked down to as if they can't do anything which isn't brutal or conspirative. And should I stress how extremely biassed "civilized" West was and still is in the civil war in ex-YUgoslavia against the Serbs?
As you said we have to preserve who we are in spite of what 'civilized' West may think of it.They have prooven so far that they are being unobjective and disrespecful of the international Law (when it suits their intetests, and when is against ours).
Russia and Serbia have the same struggle to fight.
pre 15 godina
"Jeremić: Russia is closest ally"
Wrong: Russia was HISTORICALY the par-excellence SPONSOR and DEFENDER of Serbia. Not today but ALLWAYS
Luigi: you hit the nail! This is the “principle” Serbian politics- historically, ambiguous and unreliable.
Peter: your detestation towards Albanians is going out of control.
Historically, the contribution of teh Albanian culture to teh western culture is in no way comparable to your Polish or any other Slav nation- and you can also join forces if you wish. This is FACT. You are third world compared to us. Everything that you have is build on the culture of the ancient nations including Albanian. You write in Cyrillic because Byzantium made that possible for you. You are Christians because St. Albani in one side and on the other the Byzantium priests (of which many Albanians) made you Christians etc…
The heart of the WESTERN culture is in Mediterranean (including Albania) NOT in the SLAVIC conquered lands. So please try to control you xenophobia and think and think again before writing non senses.
FACT is that the same west to whom we BELONG and to which CULTURE was BORN also in our LAND.
In other words dear Peter: for me is MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer a i.e. a German than any other nation that you mentioned
BUT to YOU
RUSSIA and Belarus are MUCH MUCH more closer than Germans or other westerns nations. This is a FAct at least in your case dear pan-slavic defender.
Anyhow your stance and the one of Slovakia for e.g. is only making us Albanians a great honor- it tales the world that a small and ancient civiliasation is fighting with dignity to preserve HER CULTURE, from the much greater invader Slavic nation.
It is absolutely clear to us that a Serbs can count on teh support of their Slavic brothers as they do and did but this will NEVER discourage us from fighting this Asian culture to preserve our identity.
pre 15 godina
Eagle
... there are no more opportunities from Russia to Serbia, "just empty words with no deeds".
Listen Eagle what you mean with empty words ? D'you believe Serbia alone could stand against NATO and deadlock the Kosovo and Methohija stealing process ? Do you believe that without our "empty words" Serbia would enjoy the support of some 80% of the world ?
I am far from idealizing my country but everyone who vainfully tries to split the Serbs and the Russians is an enemy for the Serbs. Russia provides them with a chance to remain Serbs but not unidentified cosmopolitan human beings. Very soon recognition process will start to work in the reverse mood.
pre 15 godina
Always funny Mr.Jeremic...
When he goes to Brussels he says that EU is top priority..when he goes to Moscow he says Russia is nr.1 ally..when he goes to Washington he says Us is an important partner for Serbia...
Really he seems to me as a character of some Toto's film !!
pre 15 godina
PRN
Judging by your argument, Albania's culture definitely puts it closer to the Middle East, North Africa and Turkey than to Europe.
Also, apart from Aleksander Lukashenko's government, what do you have against Belarus? Come to think of it, what do you have against Russia's people as well?
Not a very good argument.
pre 15 godina
I believe that in general it doesn't matter who personally rules Serbia now. Both Tadic or Nikolic will have to do almost the same things. The reason is that EU doors for Serbia are closed for long if not forever. Now as you should know Sarkozy said he will veto any expansion of the union.
So despite imaginary carrots offerd for Serbia Europe can do very little. And thus ideologically close to them DS coalition can't help sticking Russia. Nikolic who is morally close to Russia will do the same for there's no other way and there's no other open door. From this point of view with different motivations both will come to the same policy.
Moreover Russia has got a lot of advantages over EU. We have enough money , will power , military force , support in the world , concentration of state power , natural resources ect. So no matter who rules Serbia now closer partnership with Russia is just a matter of time.
Besides western propagandist ducks made their job and Europeans "love" both of ouw nations the same way ... I can see accusations of the Serbs that they are like Russians ... After all it's not so bad cause it evidently means that we too are like Serbians !
Good news !
.
pre 15 godina
Everyone knows that Russia is closest ally to Serbia, but as far as it is goes now, there are no more opportunities from Russia to Serbia, "just empty words with no deeds". So, i really feel sorry about Jeremic's attempts to stop recognizing Kosova's Indepedence
pre 15 godina
Minister Jeremic, Joining the EU and making Russia a closest ally are two "contradicting" policy. It is obvious that the US & EU does not consider kosovo a part of Serbia anymore as they supported the kosovo UDI. so why do you want to have a good relation with robbers like the US?? is your party (DS) truly for preservation of Kosovo?? if so, why do you insist in joining the EU where in fact most of these states supported the kosovo UDI. I think DS have to overall its true policy about kosovo and to determine its true direction whether to the EAST or WEST
pre 15 godina
Good Luck!
A good idea would be a union between RUssia, SErbia and BEllarusia and called it
Practically all in Europe have same culture, same democracy and common history...it would definately click...
pre 15 godina
The headline of this article fails the standards for fair reporting. Jeremic says that Russia is Serbia's closest ally regarding Kosovo - while making clear that on other subjects other countries are at least as important. Yet the editor generalizes the statement to make it look as if Jeremic is anti-Western.
pre 15 godina
Mirek:
Its very clear to me the difference between Catholic and Orthodox Slavs- it is PETER that is “dancing” between with his ambiguity.
I was just answering to Peter with teh same tone that he uses.
Anyhow, OUR imprint in the WESTERN civilization is HUGE and LIVE.
1. there are NO PROVES that we have emigrated in EUROPE- NOT EVEN ONE document that proves that.
And it would be quite strange since WE DO NOT LIVE IN A CORNER OF EUROPE and BALKAn but DEEP in the lands controled by the ROMAN empire and first neighbors with GREEKS. BOTH OF THEM WOULD HAVE NOTICED THE "ARRIVAL" of Albanians- as they DID FOR SLAVS. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ON THIS and NOTHING HAVE SAID- for OBVIOUS reason.
2. DIOCELECIAN and other emperors of Illyrian origin are not PERIFERAL figures and even less NON European and WESTERN.
3. CONSTANTINE THE GREAT is not peripheral man of the WESTERN Civilisation- HE IS THE IKON of teh western civilisation and religion.
4. Constantine’s COUSIN Julian found PRISTINA=priSHtina and SKUPI=SHkupi in modern Albania- not Warsaw or Prague. The change of S in SH is typical of teh Albanian language like SKODRA in SHKODRA etc. You don't need further info on JULIAN and his reforms and THE LAW on which THE WESTERN CIVUILISATION IS BASED today.
WITH point 2 and 3 I ANSWER TO THE CONCERNS OF ALBANIANS HAVING TO DO WITH BYZANTIUM OR NOT.
OUR TODAY FLAG IS BYSANTIAN- but you ignore this facts and still pretend to SPEAK AND PREACH.
5. Saint ALBANI is another example of the contribution of Albanians in teh WESTERN CIVILISATION- you are Christians thanks to him.
6. Scanderbeg is ILLUSTRE personality of the WESTERN CULTURE- you can here VIVALDI, look to teh portraits of Rembrandt, and meet him in MANY MANY operas of the FRENCH, ENGLISH, ITALIAN, GERMAN and (Czechand POLISH too) authors=WESTERN. HE was named by POPE the defender of Christianize- NOT a SERB or POLISH.
7. POPE Clemente XI is another personality (100 million Germans have only today their FIRST Pope)
8. MOTHER THERESA is not peripheral figure in the WESTERN CIVILISATION
I can cite here other "minor" names but I guess for a reasonable for a ‘good people’ as you say WOULD BE ENAOUGH.
It is not a prepotency to say this: but NOT MANY NATIONS can claim SUCH PERSONALITIES.
To say that this NATION is NOT WESTERN=EUROPEAN is a pure IDIOTIC statement.
YOU CAN ALSO watch teh MAP- WE ALBANIANS are in teh WESTERN Balkans also FISICALY in teh EAST and NORTH EAST we have Slavs as neighbors.
If you cover yourself with PREJUDICES sooner or letter you will find your self to be a RACIST.
Albanian Culture was NEVER in the CORNER of the WESTERN civilization it is the ignorance of the people like yours dear Mirek that puts it there.
P.S. for a fair and honest debate I ask b92 to publish also my previous post and not censure- I use the words and STYLE that people here use in INSULTING Albanians. Just answer with the same STYLE.
pre 15 godina
"Jeremić: Russia is closest ally"
Wrong: Russia was HISTORICALY the par-excellence SPONSOR and DEFENDER of Serbia. Not today but ALLWAYS
Luigi: you hit the nail! This is the “principle” Serbian politics- historically, ambiguous and unreliable.
Peter: your detestation towards Albanians is going out of control.
Historically, the contribution of teh Albanian culture to teh western culture is in no way comparable to your Polish or any other Slav nation- and you can also join forces if you wish. This is FACT. You are third world compared to us. Everything that you have is build on the culture of the ancient nations including Albanian. You write in Cyrillic because Byzantium made that possible for you. You are Christians because St. Albani in one side and on the other the Byzantium priests (of which many Albanians) made you Christians etc…
The heart of the WESTERN culture is in Mediterranean (including Albania) NOT in the SLAVIC conquered lands. So please try to control you xenophobia and think and think again before writing non senses.
FACT is that the same west to whom we BELONG and to which CULTURE was BORN also in our LAND.
In other words dear Peter: for me is MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer a i.e. a German than any other nation that you mentioned
BUT to YOU
RUSSIA and Belarus are MUCH MUCH more closer than Germans or other westerns nations. This is a FAct at least in your case dear pan-slavic defender.
Anyhow your stance and the one of Slovakia for e.g. is only making us Albanians a great honor- it tales the world that a small and ancient civiliasation is fighting with dignity to preserve HER CULTURE, from the much greater invader Slavic nation.
It is absolutely clear to us that a Serbs can count on teh support of their Slavic brothers as they do and did but this will NEVER discourage us from fighting this Asian culture to preserve our identity.
pre 15 godina
I believe that in general it doesn't matter who personally rules Serbia now. Both Tadic or Nikolic will have to do almost the same things. The reason is that EU doors for Serbia are closed for long if not forever. Now as you should know Sarkozy said he will veto any expansion of the union.
So despite imaginary carrots offerd for Serbia Europe can do very little. And thus ideologically close to them DS coalition can't help sticking Russia. Nikolic who is morally close to Russia will do the same for there's no other way and there's no other open door. From this point of view with different motivations both will come to the same policy.
Moreover Russia has got a lot of advantages over EU. We have enough money , will power , military force , support in the world , concentration of state power , natural resources ect. So no matter who rules Serbia now closer partnership with Russia is just a matter of time.
Besides western propagandist ducks made their job and Europeans "love" both of ouw nations the same way ... I can see accusations of the Serbs that they are like Russians ... After all it's not so bad cause it evidently means that we too are like Serbians !
Good news !
.
pre 15 godina
Eagle
... there are no more opportunities from Russia to Serbia, "just empty words with no deeds".
Listen Eagle what you mean with empty words ? D'you believe Serbia alone could stand against NATO and deadlock the Kosovo and Methohija stealing process ? Do you believe that without our "empty words" Serbia would enjoy the support of some 80% of the world ?
I am far from idealizing my country but everyone who vainfully tries to split the Serbs and the Russians is an enemy for the Serbs. Russia provides them with a chance to remain Serbs but not unidentified cosmopolitan human beings. Very soon recognition process will start to work in the reverse mood.
pre 15 godina
to Oh Those Russians:
In Serbia we are very thankful for Russia's support. As you can see the alban jealousy is very evident...
pre 15 godina
Oh those Russians !
just want to say that I can't agree with you more.My stance is pro-russian , believeing that we really need each other (Serbia needs Russia more of course).
We have the same problem: the 'civilised' West is negatively biased against us.Whatever Russians do is always looked down to as if they can't do anything which isn't brutal or conspirative. And should I stress how extremely biassed "civilized" West was and still is in the civil war in ex-YUgoslavia against the Serbs?
As you said we have to preserve who we are in spite of what 'civilized' West may think of it.They have prooven so far that they are being unobjective and disrespecful of the international Law (when it suits their intetests, and when is against ours).
Russia and Serbia have the same struggle to fight.
pre 15 godina
It's great that Serbia's govt is keeping its strong relations with Russia, while at the same time pursuing closer EU ties. It definitely keeps more options open politically and economically.
As for some of the Albanian posters I'm not sure of why you've posted these types of comments here. I would encourage B92 to not post ridiculous comments since they do not help the dialogue.
For example look at this lol from Ben, "FACT is that the same west to whom we BELONG and to which CULTURE was BORN also in our LAND.
In other words dear Peter: for me is MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer a i.e. a German than any other nation that you mentioned"
pre 15 godina
PRN
Judging by your argument, Albania's culture definitely puts it closer to the Middle East, North Africa and Turkey than to Europe.
Also, apart from Aleksander Lukashenko's government, what do you have against Belarus? Come to think of it, what do you have against Russia's people as well?
Not a very good argument.
pre 15 godina
Ratko
D'you remember the song :
We shall overcome
We shall overcome
We shall overcome
Some day ...
Oh deep in my heart
I do believe that
We shall overcome
Some day !
Good luck !
pre 15 godina
It is appalling to read and hear to what extent history can be manipulated.
Dear Serbian friends, ... when I say something about history of my country I mean it as I have full proof.
My Grandfather was born in Nis (today's Serbia) and his father and grandfather too, before being wiped out with 100,000s of other Albanians between late 19th and very early years of 20th century.
The Albanian families that forcibly sent in Kosovo (and TUrkey) were nicknamed and EVEN today are
called "Muhaxher"...
Does any SERB historian knows this....?
Ben is Right when he points out what we have delivered to the Western civiliastion.
Albanians left a mark in the civilisation of many countries.
Alexander the Great, Constantine the Great, Kemajl Attaturk, to the former leaders of Egypt Jordan HAD ONE THING IN COMMEN, they ALL HAD ALBANIAN BLOOD.
I could continue further I thing is pointless, as Serbian propaganda in Serbia supersedes the TRUTH.
Hope the above is clear.
pre 15 godina
veki
Strange as is but I totally agree with you. Moreover I know it for sure that not only Serbs are the victims but the Albanians as well.
Once disguided by the West after many promices for independence K-Albanians found thamselves entramped in the reservation with unclesr prospects. This autumn when dollar's collapse is expected the US may have no will or desire to take care of Kosovo. Only the God knows how soon the Europeans will start to change their views ... So K-Albanians are in nothing better situation than the Serbs.
You are right the Anglo-Saxon domination in the world for many nations mens merely hidden discriminations. But times they are changing and we shall see how the things run in a few years to come. One example : for many years NHL used to invite our ice-hockey players ignoring the existing Russian contracts. They were rich and cared little what we think or say. Today we started to do the same and they are shocked. Now our teams have much higher salaries and they do not care what NHL thinks when we buy their best players.
So best if the Albanians are ready for such developments and stop hiding behind NATO cause sooner or later you will have to deal with the Serbs. You are neighbours and none of you is going to settle on the Moon ... If other Albanians were so reasonable peace in the Balkans would be safer.
.
pre 15 godina
Good Luck!
A good idea would be a union between RUssia, SErbia and BEllarusia and called it
Practically all in Europe have same culture, same democracy and common history...it would definately click...
pre 15 godina
Minister Jeremic, Joining the EU and making Russia a closest ally are two "contradicting" policy. It is obvious that the US & EU does not consider kosovo a part of Serbia anymore as they supported the kosovo UDI. so why do you want to have a good relation with robbers like the US?? is your party (DS) truly for preservation of Kosovo?? if so, why do you insist in joining the EU where in fact most of these states supported the kosovo UDI. I think DS have to overall its true policy about kosovo and to determine its true direction whether to the EAST or WEST
pre 15 godina
ben
I used that argument towards PRN because his argument was one big stereotype, you obviously did not catch the hint in mine and your oversensitivity got the better of you. Calm down.
It's a waste of time to any reply to your statements, but just to correct you on a few things here:
"Historically, the contribution of teh Albanian culture to teh western culture is in no way comparable to your Polish or any other Slav nation- and you can also join forces if you wish. This is FACT. You are third world compared to us."
Historically, Albania has contributed nothing to world, apart from the Belushi brothers, Mother Teresa, Pope Albani and viagra... that's it. Slavs on the other hand, put the first satellite, man, woman and animal into space, discovered that the sun is the center of the universe and that other planets circle it, discovered the AC current, the concept of radioactivity and other massive contributions to science, art, music, literature and other things.
"Everything that you have is build on the culture of the ancient nations including Albanian. You write in Cyrillic because Byzantium made that possible for you. You are Christians because St. Albani in one side and on the other the Byzantium priests (of which many Albanians) made you Christians etc… "
Albanians claiming to be Byzantium is just hilarious! Illyrium I can still understand, but Byzantium too? Good lord! That would be like me claiming all the German, Austrian, Czech and Hungarian contributions to society just because we are in central Europe. See how foolish that sounds?
Pope Albani lived during the 17th Century, Slavs were Christianized over a thousand years before (some later, but no later than 1000 AD). Please read up on your history, because now you are embarassing yourself.
BTW Only Orthodox Slavs write in the Cyrillic alphabet. Catholic Slavs write in the Roman alphabet, or don't you know the difference? Oh wait, Albanians invented both ;)
"In other words dear Peter: for me is MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer a i.e. a German than any other nation that you mentioned "
Speak for yourself. No offense, but I have many German friends, and I highly doubt they would consider themselves closer to Albanians than to Slavs. While it is known that Germans are generally not fond of Slavs, they tend to lump Albanians in the same category as the Turks. Go to Germany and see what I mean.
"BUT to YOU
RUSSIA and Belarus are MUCH MUCH more closer than Germans or other westerns nations. "
Yes, Belarus and Russia are close culturally to Poland, so is the West. We speak an Eastern language, practice a Western religion and culturally we are inbetween. If you classify Albania as the West, then you must be delusional, because Mosques, poverty, crime and lack of infrastructure are not Western traits at all.
To conclude, try to get the gist of what I am writing first before exploding with such things as you wrote.
Regards
Piotr
pre 15 godina
Thats funny Ben Because we did the same against the Turks and here we are Christian Serbs unlike muslim Albanians. But anyway maybe you and PRN should pick up a history book some day and read the true history of Europe not your grandfathers version of Europes history. Third world compeared to who, The the Albanians, please you still have tribes and blood feuds. Albanians made us Christians now thats good. What a joke. And the albanians taught the Serbs how to write, another joke. Western way of life started with the Greeks not the illyrans, and definetly not the albanians. Again read a book and don't rely on grand dad's history leasons. Have a nice day profesor Ben. And THANK YOU Peter Sudyka.
pre 15 godina
Always funny Mr.Jeremic...
When he goes to Brussels he says that EU is top priority..when he goes to Moscow he says Russia is nr.1 ally..when he goes to Washington he says Us is an important partner for Serbia...
Really he seems to me as a character of some Toto's film !!
pre 15 godina
"…. everyone who vainfully tries to split the Serbs and the Russians is an enemy for the Serbs…"
Yes, we have a lot of enemies. But don't worry, they can't succeed, our ties are much to deep and strong…. We are grateful for your present support and we will never forget your previous support, in some of the most difficult periods of our history.
It's a pity that we can't elect V. Putin for our president.
pre 15 godina
Everyone knows that Russia is closest ally to Serbia, but as far as it is goes now, there are no more opportunities from Russia to Serbia, "just empty words with no deeds". So, i really feel sorry about Jeremic's attempts to stop recognizing Kosova's Indepedence
pre 15 godina
ben with 26 recommandations
LOL!
what do Cyril and Methodius or even their disciple Clement of Ohrid have to do with your statement?!
Myself I thought that the heart of the western culture was Rome and its civilisation(itself adopting ancient greek elements), but if you say so ... :)
I too have the sensation that Mr Jeremic is starting to act like a jukebox, but, well, partially that's the job of a FM.
pre 15 godina
ben
Firstly, ben, please stop claiming Contantine and anything to do with Byzantium as Albanian. That would be like me claiming the achievements of Wit Stworsz or Jan Heweliusz as Polish because they were born in Poland (except then under German/Prussian rule). There is no way you can link Byzantium to Albania, like I cannot link Poland to Bismarck's Germany/Prussia..
Secondly, the Russian achievements were only the ones involving space. The Polish ones I mentioned were Mikolaj Kopernik (father of modern astronomy and founder of today's concept of our solar system) and Maria Curie-Sklodowska (revolutionary research culminating in the concept of radioactivity). You want more Poles? Ignacy Lukasiewicz, created the conept and started the first oil industry (as well as the first kerosene and parafin lamps). Guess who created kevlar as well... all Poles. In any case, the argument was about all Slavs, not just Poles, so I gave more than just Polish examples.
Finally, Western culture was born in Rome and Greece, no one ever mentioned Byzantium, Illyrium, let alone Albania as being as important or profound.
arti
The only thing ben did was to attack the Slavs, and all I did was defend. You would do the same.
pre 15 godina
Ben, you are not direct desendents of the Illyrans. That I read, a mear spin off the Illyran tree mixed with other ethnicities, But not true Illyran. Serbs were Serb And still are Serbs. Illyran, to a tribe that sounds like Albanian to, We are Albanian and invented the world and our land is all of Europe, Slavs this and Slavs that... You guys sound like a broken record. All we Serbs say is that Kosovo is Serbian and we left our mark there, untill you guys tried to wipe it off the Serbian Kosovo map. You say all of balkans is Albanian because of the Illyrans, Funny how a people work so hard and the Albanians try to take credit for it. It's funny how the Albanian version of history is diffrent from the countries that suround you. OOPS! Sorry You guys invented history. Every people has their people that put a mark on history including you guys, but when you guys turn others into being albanian just to bump up your mark in history, now that grabbing at straws just to out do someone outside of you history ring and to prove false facts. You sound pretty smart, why don't you put those brains into makeing peace in the Balkans instead of trying to prove to us that your Albanian propaganda is true. Good luck, FIFA won't even say you a independent country. Shouldn't have cut any corners when declairing independence. RES 1244, Kosovo is AND STILL Serbian
pre 15 godina
The headline of this article fails the standards for fair reporting. Jeremic says that Russia is Serbia's closest ally regarding Kosovo - while making clear that on other subjects other countries are at least as important. Yet the editor generalizes the statement to make it look as if Jeremic is anti-Western.
pre 15 godina
PRN
Judging by your argument, Albania's culture definitely puts it closer to the Middle East, North Africa and Turkey than to Europe.
Also, apart from Aleksander Lukashenko's government, what do you have against Belarus? Come to think of it, what do you have against Russia's people as well?
(Peter Sudyka, 16 July 2008 13:51)
Dear Peter Sudyka,
I did not say that there is something wrong. On the contrary, it very right to have an union as they share many things together.
As for Albanians, we do have elements from various backgrounds (Middle East, Turkey etc) BUT that makes us more cosmopolitan...
pre 15 godina
ben
Ah yes, I forgot one great Albanian: Skenderbeg.
pre 15 godina
ben
To finally put your argument to rest, I will print out your glaring inaccuracies in black and white for all to see:
"5. Saint ALBANI is another example of the contribution of Albanians in teh WESTERN CIVILISATION- you are Christians thanks to him. "
- Pope Clement XI was born on July 23, 1649 and died on March 19, 1721.
- Poles were among the last Slavs to be Christianized and this was in the year 966.
So please tell me how in the world could have Slavs become Christian thanks to Pope Albani if the Poles were Christianized 683 years before the Pope was even born?
"6. Scanderbeg is ILLUSTRE personality of the WESTERN CULTURE- you can here VIVALDI, look to teh portraits of Rembrandt, and meet him in MANY MANY operas of the FRENCH, ENGLISH, ITALIAN, GERMAN and (Czechand POLISH too) authors=WESTERN. HE was named by POPE the defender of Christianize- NOT a SERB or POLISH. "
I have never seen a portrait of Skenderbeg anywhere, be it in Poland, Germany or the Netherlands, be it in museums, operas or theaters, and he is not half as important to the world of Christianity as you make him out to be, especially not like Poland's Jan III Sobieski led the Holy League (Poland-Lithuania, Austria, Saxony, Bavaria, Franconia and Swabia) to the most decisive victory over the Turks at the gates of Vienna in 1683, the battle which brought about the greatest turn of the tide against the Ottoman Empire. Since that victory, they became weaker and weaker until they fell apart. Skenderbeg, while a brave fighter, achieved nothing as great.
"7. POPE Clemente XI is another personality (100 million Germans have only today their FIRST Pope) "
Your point? Pope John Paul II (born Karol Wojty³a in Wadowice, POLAND) was sometimes called the greatest Pope of all time, and guess what, he was Polish too.
Your Byzantine and Illyrian arguments I will not go into, because Albanians claiming these civilizations as their own would be like me as a Pole claiming German, Sarmatian, Hungarian, Lithuanian and Russian as my own too.
I hope I have made my point.
pre 15 godina
Ben, seriously, if you believe what you wrote I feel sorry for you man...wanted to react to your particular claims, but it just doesn't make sense, whole your 'comment' is made by a dreamy freak - like...
But one thing - if you are such a great nation (no matter if in Albania or Kosovo) tell me - how's that you are alternatively with Moldova THE poorest and THE least developed country in Europe, NOT having much to do with Europe anyway, but I'm now talking about infrastructure & the general degree of development? Is that because you have 'supposedly' the Illirian roots or what? Tell us, educate us, come on...why should we not have a laugh this afternoon?:)
Peter: your detestation towards Albanians is going out of control.
Historically, the contribution of teh Albanian culture to teh western culture is in no way comparable to your Polish or any other Slav nation- and you can also join forces if you wish. This is FACT. You are third world compared to us. Everything that you have is build on the culture of the ancient nations including Albanian. You write in Cyrillic because Byzantium made that possible for you. You are Christians because St. Albani in one side and on the other the Byzantium priests (of which many Albanians) made you Christians etc…
The heart of the WESTERN culture is in Mediterranean (including Albania) NOT in the SLAVIC conquered lands. So please try to control you xenophobia and think and think again before writing non senses.
FACT is that the same west to whom we BELONG and to which CULTURE was BORN also in our LAND.
In other words dear Peter: for me is MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer a i.e. a German than any other nation that you mentioned
BUT to YOU
RUSSIA and Belarus are MUCH MUCH more closer than Germans or other westerns nations. This is a FAct at least in your case dear pan-slavic defender.
Anyhow your stance and the one of Slovakia for e.g. is only making us Albanians a great honor- it tales the world that a small and ancient civiliasation is fighting with dignity to preserve HER CULTURE, from the much greater invader Slavic nation.
It is absolutely clear to us that a Serbs can count on teh support of their Slavic brothers as they do and did but this will NEVER discourage us from fighting this Asian culture to preserve our identity.
(ben, 16 July 2008 15:00)
pre 15 godina
"It is absolutely clear to us that a Serbs can count on teh support of their Slavic brothers as they do and did but this will NEVER discourage us from fighting this Asian culture to preserve our identity.|It is absolutely clear to us that a Serbs can count on teh support of their Slavic brothers as they do and did but this will NEVER discourage us from fighting this Asian culture to preserve our identity."
"So please try to control you xenophobia and think and think again before writing non senses."
Well, as a typical Asiatic Slav that I am, I am impressed by the non xenophobic respect that you have for us and our Asiatic culture. Clearly, you are a representative of a great and tolerant civilization....
pre 15 godina
So many Illyrians but not one Iliya amongst them.
Your arrival in the lands of Rashka was on the coat tails of the Ottomans. I can advise you that Albania, like Croatia like Greece are Latin renditions for these regions. The people identify themselves as Shqyptars, Horvats and Hellenes respectively.
Depending on whether you subscribe to a world history according to encyclopedia Britannica or Germanica or whatever you can make your own conclusions when these people were first mentioned on these lands
Rasci was the name by which the Serbians were known and referred to by the Latins before the arrival of the Ottomans. The land of Rashka was distinctly Serbian.
I can also advise you that your UDI is nothing more than you exercising your perceived squatting rights over Serbian land. This may be acceptable in some legal jurisdictions around the world but certainly it is not a right anywhere where the legal owners are still present.
Your attempt to exterminate the Serbs and their culture from their ancestral lands has come to nothing. It was close but by any reckoning you have definitely played all your cards and all of them prematurely.
The world politic changes and yes it will change as sure as night turns to day.
The great human migration supposedly came out of Africa, into Asia and then into Europe. There are other theories but this matters not.
The question is not what culture is best or which is worth preserving over another. These are dynamic features. It is much easier to recognize which cultures are on a one way path to self destruction. This cannot be achieved by invasion alone.
I know who I have my money on.
Don’t believe me just look at your no brainer history books that you subscribe to and all will agree that when the Mongols and Manchus invaded China they became Chinese, just as the Hellenes and Romans came to ancient Egypt they took on Egypt’s universal religion, the idea of heavenly rule over the world and sacred science, and when the hordes later came to Rome, the same, or when the hordes came to Ancient Egypt, Babylon etc. The legacy of superior culture always prevails no matter what the name the rose goes by.
Europe was the domain of the Neanderthal shamans and their legacy is so profound that it is everywhere but not obvious to most people. This is the same with the later ancient cultures of southern Europe which developed during the last ice age.
How much do today’s Albanians inherit from these ancients cultures is at best minimal and at worst zero? Your attempts to look for answers beyond how you live your everyday lives is laughable so the answer is simple and requires no stories from grandfathers or blood tests or whatever is fashionable today.
Simply look in the mirror.
pre 15 godina
(Mirek London/Prague, 16 July 2008 17:17)
Mirek you should read my post in the light of Peters #
7.
Than you will have the real motive to laugh.
He mentions great names of the western culture as they are nothing and than starts ‘fishing’ around. From being Polish he starts to claim the merits of Russians- a complete confusion on his national identity.
He pretends to know the history but forgets facts of the European and world’s history linked with the Albanians. He misses to recognize the contribution of the Albanians to the western empires and particularly misses to mention Constantine the Great- born Kosovar that lived in Berat (central Albania( where he become Christian before becoming an emperor and declare the Christianity as official religion of Roman empire.
He ignores completely facts that the second greatest baptistery of the Roman empire after Constantinople was in Albania- his ignorance will place it in the middle east.
I will not stay here to list names and figures of the Albanian culture. Peter already made a short list.
What I would like to highlight is this: take only the Peter’s ‘short list’ and try to make a similar list for other nations- weighting them. Try to make a similar list for your nation- in this case Polish and compare it with ours. Compare this ‘short list’ with other 6-7 million European nations see if you can make it.
You cannot change facts dear Peter: the western culture has teh roots in teh Mediterranean- where we Albanians live for millenniums- not in Poland or Russia.
Last time our Peter said that Albanians are not blonds hence they are for him more middle east people- ignoring or deliberately forgetting to think about other European mediterraneans: Greeks, Italians, Spanish, Portugese, Catalans, Corsicans etc… are they Europeans for you xenophobic standards Peter?
The facts that you Mirek and Peter point out about poverty are result of teh isolation of teh Albanians form teh same west for centuries. This was truth until 1999 (if B92 would not cut my posts it would've been clear). Take a look of this speech fro this intelligent person and you will see what I mean
The independence of Kosova means above all for us Albanians and for educated Europeans a simple fact: Albanians you are Europeans as all other nations and you will be respected and will be equal among equals from now one.
pre 15 godina
Ben,
"…..WE DO … LIVE IN A ….. DEEP in the lands controled by the ROMAN empire and first neighbors with GREEKS. BOTH OF THEM WOULD HAVE NOTICED THE "ARRIVAL" of Albanians- as they DID FOR SLAVS. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ON THIS and NOTHING HAVE SAID- for OBVIOUS reason. …"
Yes, exactly to the point, they had nothing to say about you for very obvious reason - you were not there.
You, Albanians can believe that you are living on Balkans for many thousands of years, that you are descendants of Ilirians, that you developed western civilization and who knows what else, but that doesn't mean this is actually a true.
This Ilirian theory was first formulated by the Austrian court historians, (with very specific geo - political goal in mind …), in the late 1880's. During Turkish time you didn't have Albanian identity, but Turkish.. Your propaganda turned history on it's had. You are claiming that you were victims of some kind of permanent genocide that Serbs were committed against you through the centuries. In reality, just oposite was the case - when you converted to Islam, you become privileged class in Ottoman Empire. You were systematically oppressing and terrorizing Christians, Serbs in the first place, for centuries. Muslim identity and top position in the Ottoman hierarchy, (you had more than forty Grand Vezirs), allowed Albanians to colonize Kosovo by cleansing the Serbs.
Albanian nationalist elites Albanian nationalism and hatred towards Serbs was motivated by the desire of your nationalist elite to keep their privileged position above the Serbs.
Albanian scholars interested in thruth:
http://www.geocities.com/aia_skenderbeg/albanian_sources.html
P. S. I see that you love to use capital letters. It has a similar effect as shouting. Do you think that it makes your massege more effective? Please, use less shouting and more arguments….
Mirek, you are right to point religion, Catholicism versus Orthodox Christianity, as a major division factor among the Slavs. This factor decides our loyalties. We, Serbs, feel very strongly connected with a Greece and Russia because of this major part of our identity. Catholic Slavs are loyal to Vatican. These are the facts. But to say that Catholic Slavs doesn't have anything in common with Orthodox Slavs is overstatement to put it mildly. Despite our quarrels and often, ehm, how would I say, complicated history, a lot of time that passed sinds our migrations, exposure to different foreign cultures and mixing with other races, we still have a lot in common. Our similarities are obvious to any neutral observer. For example Serbs and Croats speak same language. (Many Croat nationalists will insist their language is different, but they understand Serbs perfectly never the less …).
We Serbs, are very aware of our common heritage and feel closeness also with you, western Slavs…
pre 15 godina
Peter Seduka. Albanian culture, is unique, is based on old traditions of illirians, has its own language, music, dances, traditional rythem and so on. You have no clue on what you talking about. Is like me saying, polish culture is closer to german then slavic. Wrong
pre 15 godina
Jeremić: Russia is closest ally.
Good luck.
pre 15 godina
Russia and Serbia have one thing in common: both are *losers* of the Cold War…
pre 15 godina
Ben & the others,
I'm not going to go into your claim that today's Albania has something to do with Western culture. It is clearly a nonsense and there are absolutely no facts supporting your claim (in the same way anyone in Euro-Asian area could claim 'their bit' in contributing to the West, and, at least in a way it is so, doesn't mean those nations have anything common with the West as such today though...).
What I want to write about here today is your twisted concept of 'Slavs'. You probably ahve an idea there is a sort of 'Panslavism' that some people may have tried (and failed) to foster in the past. Put simply - it's a nonsense, not smaller than your 'western' claims. There is nothing like that. Countries like Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Slovenia, Croatia have nothing to do culturally with Russia, Belarus and most of the Slavic Balkans. Our culture is (and always was - even during communism/socialism) western, based on Catholicism or Protestantism and historically belonging to the Holy Roman Empire & thus Western Christianity. You can mention our languages - yes they are Slavic-based, but they belong to the group called 'Western-Slavic' languages (Czech, Polish, Slovak, Slovenian). What our clear identity is we are Central Europeans, not Eastern Europeans (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, most of Balkans, incl. all Orthodox countries, incl. Greece). There is a huge difference between us and Eastern Christians and our cultures. So if anyone tries to put all 'Slavic' people into one basket they simply don't know what they are talking about. If you still don't believe, consider this - Prague had been THE capital of the West for a few centuries, being the seat of the Holy Roman Emperor (approzimately bet. 14th & 16th centuries). All good historians know that. So if anyone in Europe, outside the obvious Western Europe, can claim they do and always have belonged to the West it's Central Europe, not South-Eastern Europe or beyond. Hope this is a good information for you. All the Best to All good people.
pre 15 godina
(Peter Sudyka, 16 July 2008 13:51)
Peter,I don't think that you need to ask as Albanians regarding the feeling towards russia.( not to all slavic nation though,don't get me wrong ).Russia historicaly has been the bigest suporter of serbia,of course due to their strategic interest too.
I'm sure ur smart enough to know what I'm talking about so there's no need to go into the details.
(Peter Sudyka, 16 July 2008 16:22
Yes, Belarus and Russia are close culturally to Poland, so is the West. We speak an Eastern language, practice a Western religion and culturally we are inbetween. If you classify Albania as the West, then you must be delusional, because Mosques, poverty, crime and lack of infrastructure are not Western traits at all.
Resp:
I'm sure that ur familiar with the saying " what goes around comes back around" ? you country too was in the conditions that we're today and partially still is,West witch today is a pride word to many of as due to todays economic development, mediterranian was the same to your ancenstors if they would be lucky enough to have been classified as one.
You're right about mosques in Albania,We got plenty of them,chatolic and orthodox churches too,We got no problem with people's belief,you guys try to tag as turks,arabs God knows what just because our religion,on the other hand you forget the roots of your own religion,I cannot understand how that can happen,they both come from the same region,it's like you mentioned in the above comment about the diference betwen sllavs,it's no different.
I wish that your future comments are more subtancial than the today's one,or maybe I should blame at Ben,he really brought up the real Peter.:)
peace to all
pre 15 godina
PRN, that was the best Albanian history leason I ever had. Well, probably all comeing from the "Albanian" history book. BEN & PRN, please show me where I can read about all these great people that have Albanian blood in them. To the Serb camp here me included. We can argue till were blue in the face and these people will pull history out of their ears. Just like in Kosovo they prevoke us and we by defending ourselfs argue till no end because we know we are right. Let them have their say with fales facts that was taught to them from only their version of history. The world and Serbs know our history and they know theirs. It's all Albanian propaganda here to try to get under our skin. And I love it. They try so hard to push that propaganda on us that it make me LOL! Keep it comeing guys.
pre 15 godina
I am just so glad that serbia and mother russia are such strong and fervent allies, on so many levels. i was just reading this nice little article stating that in an ongoing Russian contest to determine the "greatest russian," it remains a tight race between Czar Nicholas II (eventually executed by the Bolsheviks) and Joseph Stalin (who executed everyone including fellow Bolsheviks.) the "greatest" russians! i shudder to think who might be voted the greatest Serbian...
Now, as for some possibly overstated claims about the Illyrians, yes, i do think some of this is a tad overdone. but what do you expect when albanians are attacked and put down, day after day, in the silliest and nastiest ways. and this is just accepted as "normal." by whom?? so place the burden of guilt where it is due...
roberto/frisco
pre 15 godina
Everyone knows that Russia is closest ally to Serbia, but as far as it is goes now, there are no more opportunities from Russia to Serbia, "just empty words with no deeds". So, i really feel sorry about Jeremic's attempts to stop recognizing Kosova's Indepedence
pre 15 godina
"Jeremić: Russia is closest ally"
Wrong: Russia was HISTORICALY the par-excellence SPONSOR and DEFENDER of Serbia. Not today but ALLWAYS
Luigi: you hit the nail! This is the “principle” Serbian politics- historically, ambiguous and unreliable.
Peter: your detestation towards Albanians is going out of control.
Historically, the contribution of teh Albanian culture to teh western culture is in no way comparable to your Polish or any other Slav nation- and you can also join forces if you wish. This is FACT. You are third world compared to us. Everything that you have is build on the culture of the ancient nations including Albanian. You write in Cyrillic because Byzantium made that possible for you. You are Christians because St. Albani in one side and on the other the Byzantium priests (of which many Albanians) made you Christians etc…
The heart of the WESTERN culture is in Mediterranean (including Albania) NOT in the SLAVIC conquered lands. So please try to control you xenophobia and think and think again before writing non senses.
FACT is that the same west to whom we BELONG and to which CULTURE was BORN also in our LAND.
In other words dear Peter: for me is MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer a i.e. a German than any other nation that you mentioned
BUT to YOU
RUSSIA and Belarus are MUCH MUCH more closer than Germans or other westerns nations. This is a FAct at least in your case dear pan-slavic defender.
Anyhow your stance and the one of Slovakia for e.g. is only making us Albanians a great honor- it tales the world that a small and ancient civiliasation is fighting with dignity to preserve HER CULTURE, from the much greater invader Slavic nation.
It is absolutely clear to us that a Serbs can count on teh support of their Slavic brothers as they do and did but this will NEVER discourage us from fighting this Asian culture to preserve our identity.
pre 15 godina
Good Luck!
A good idea would be a union between RUssia, SErbia and BEllarusia and called it
Practically all in Europe have same culture, same democracy and common history...it would definately click...
pre 15 godina
Always funny Mr.Jeremic...
When he goes to Brussels he says that EU is top priority..when he goes to Moscow he says Russia is nr.1 ally..when he goes to Washington he says Us is an important partner for Serbia...
Really he seems to me as a character of some Toto's film !!
pre 15 godina
(Mirek London/Prague, 16 July 2008 17:17)
Mirek you should read my post in the light of Peters #
7.
Than you will have the real motive to laugh.
He mentions great names of the western culture as they are nothing and than starts ‘fishing’ around. From being Polish he starts to claim the merits of Russians- a complete confusion on his national identity.
He pretends to know the history but forgets facts of the European and world’s history linked with the Albanians. He misses to recognize the contribution of the Albanians to the western empires and particularly misses to mention Constantine the Great- born Kosovar that lived in Berat (central Albania( where he become Christian before becoming an emperor and declare the Christianity as official religion of Roman empire.
He ignores completely facts that the second greatest baptistery of the Roman empire after Constantinople was in Albania- his ignorance will place it in the middle east.
I will not stay here to list names and figures of the Albanian culture. Peter already made a short list.
What I would like to highlight is this: take only the Peter’s ‘short list’ and try to make a similar list for other nations- weighting them. Try to make a similar list for your nation- in this case Polish and compare it with ours. Compare this ‘short list’ with other 6-7 million European nations see if you can make it.
You cannot change facts dear Peter: the western culture has teh roots in teh Mediterranean- where we Albanians live for millenniums- not in Poland or Russia.
Last time our Peter said that Albanians are not blonds hence they are for him more middle east people- ignoring or deliberately forgetting to think about other European mediterraneans: Greeks, Italians, Spanish, Portugese, Catalans, Corsicans etc… are they Europeans for you xenophobic standards Peter?
The facts that you Mirek and Peter point out about poverty are result of teh isolation of teh Albanians form teh same west for centuries. This was truth until 1999 (if B92 would not cut my posts it would've been clear). Take a look of this speech fro this intelligent person and you will see what I mean
The independence of Kosova means above all for us Albanians and for educated Europeans a simple fact: Albanians you are Europeans as all other nations and you will be respected and will be equal among equals from now one.
pre 15 godina
(Peter Sudyka, 16 July 2008 13:51)
Peter,I don't think that you need to ask as Albanians regarding the feeling towards russia.( not to all slavic nation though,don't get me wrong ).Russia historicaly has been the bigest suporter of serbia,of course due to their strategic interest too.
I'm sure ur smart enough to know what I'm talking about so there's no need to go into the details.
(Peter Sudyka, 16 July 2008 16:22
Yes, Belarus and Russia are close culturally to Poland, so is the West. We speak an Eastern language, practice a Western religion and culturally we are inbetween. If you classify Albania as the West, then you must be delusional, because Mosques, poverty, crime and lack of infrastructure are not Western traits at all.
Resp:
I'm sure that ur familiar with the saying " what goes around comes back around" ? you country too was in the conditions that we're today and partially still is,West witch today is a pride word to many of as due to todays economic development, mediterranian was the same to your ancenstors if they would be lucky enough to have been classified as one.
You're right about mosques in Albania,We got plenty of them,chatolic and orthodox churches too,We got no problem with people's belief,you guys try to tag as turks,arabs God knows what just because our religion,on the other hand you forget the roots of your own religion,I cannot understand how that can happen,they both come from the same region,it's like you mentioned in the above comment about the diference betwen sllavs,it's no different.
I wish that your future comments are more subtancial than the today's one,or maybe I should blame at Ben,he really brought up the real Peter.:)
peace to all
pre 15 godina
The headline of this article fails the standards for fair reporting. Jeremic says that Russia is Serbia's closest ally regarding Kosovo - while making clear that on other subjects other countries are at least as important. Yet the editor generalizes the statement to make it look as if Jeremic is anti-Western.
pre 15 godina
PRN
Judging by your argument, Albania's culture definitely puts it closer to the Middle East, North Africa and Turkey than to Europe.
Also, apart from Aleksander Lukashenko's government, what do you have against Belarus? Come to think of it, what do you have against Russia's people as well?
(Peter Sudyka, 16 July 2008 13:51)
Dear Peter Sudyka,
I did not say that there is something wrong. On the contrary, it very right to have an union as they share many things together.
As for Albanians, we do have elements from various backgrounds (Middle East, Turkey etc) BUT that makes us more cosmopolitan...
pre 15 godina
Jeremić: Russia is closest ally.
Good luck.
pre 15 godina
Russia and Serbia have one thing in common: both are *losers* of the Cold War…
pre 15 godina
ben
I used that argument towards PRN because his argument was one big stereotype, you obviously did not catch the hint in mine and your oversensitivity got the better of you. Calm down.
It's a waste of time to any reply to your statements, but just to correct you on a few things here:
"Historically, the contribution of teh Albanian culture to teh western culture is in no way comparable to your Polish or any other Slav nation- and you can also join forces if you wish. This is FACT. You are third world compared to us."
Historically, Albania has contributed nothing to world, apart from the Belushi brothers, Mother Teresa, Pope Albani and viagra... that's it. Slavs on the other hand, put the first satellite, man, woman and animal into space, discovered that the sun is the center of the universe and that other planets circle it, discovered the AC current, the concept of radioactivity and other massive contributions to science, art, music, literature and other things.
"Everything that you have is build on the culture of the ancient nations including Albanian. You write in Cyrillic because Byzantium made that possible for you. You are Christians because St. Albani in one side and on the other the Byzantium priests (of which many Albanians) made you Christians etc… "
Albanians claiming to be Byzantium is just hilarious! Illyrium I can still understand, but Byzantium too? Good lord! That would be like me claiming all the German, Austrian, Czech and Hungarian contributions to society just because we are in central Europe. See how foolish that sounds?
Pope Albani lived during the 17th Century, Slavs were Christianized over a thousand years before (some later, but no later than 1000 AD). Please read up on your history, because now you are embarassing yourself.
BTW Only Orthodox Slavs write in the Cyrillic alphabet. Catholic Slavs write in the Roman alphabet, or don't you know the difference? Oh wait, Albanians invented both ;)
"In other words dear Peter: for me is MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer a i.e. a German than any other nation that you mentioned "
Speak for yourself. No offense, but I have many German friends, and I highly doubt they would consider themselves closer to Albanians than to Slavs. While it is known that Germans are generally not fond of Slavs, they tend to lump Albanians in the same category as the Turks. Go to Germany and see what I mean.
"BUT to YOU
RUSSIA and Belarus are MUCH MUCH more closer than Germans or other westerns nations. "
Yes, Belarus and Russia are close culturally to Poland, so is the West. We speak an Eastern language, practice a Western religion and culturally we are inbetween. If you classify Albania as the West, then you must be delusional, because Mosques, poverty, crime and lack of infrastructure are not Western traits at all.
To conclude, try to get the gist of what I am writing first before exploding with such things as you wrote.
Regards
Piotr
pre 15 godina
I am just so glad that serbia and mother russia are such strong and fervent allies, on so many levels. i was just reading this nice little article stating that in an ongoing Russian contest to determine the "greatest russian," it remains a tight race between Czar Nicholas II (eventually executed by the Bolsheviks) and Joseph Stalin (who executed everyone including fellow Bolsheviks.) the "greatest" russians! i shudder to think who might be voted the greatest Serbian...
Now, as for some possibly overstated claims about the Illyrians, yes, i do think some of this is a tad overdone. but what do you expect when albanians are attacked and put down, day after day, in the silliest and nastiest ways. and this is just accepted as "normal." by whom?? so place the burden of guilt where it is due...
roberto/frisco
pre 15 godina
Mirek:
Its very clear to me the difference between Catholic and Orthodox Slavs- it is PETER that is “dancing” between with his ambiguity.
I was just answering to Peter with teh same tone that he uses.
Anyhow, OUR imprint in the WESTERN civilization is HUGE and LIVE.
1. there are NO PROVES that we have emigrated in EUROPE- NOT EVEN ONE document that proves that.
And it would be quite strange since WE DO NOT LIVE IN A CORNER OF EUROPE and BALKAn but DEEP in the lands controled by the ROMAN empire and first neighbors with GREEKS. BOTH OF THEM WOULD HAVE NOTICED THE "ARRIVAL" of Albanians- as they DID FOR SLAVS. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ON THIS and NOTHING HAVE SAID- for OBVIOUS reason.
2. DIOCELECIAN and other emperors of Illyrian origin are not PERIFERAL figures and even less NON European and WESTERN.
3. CONSTANTINE THE GREAT is not peripheral man of the WESTERN Civilisation- HE IS THE IKON of teh western civilisation and religion.
4. Constantine’s COUSIN Julian found PRISTINA=priSHtina and SKUPI=SHkupi in modern Albania- not Warsaw or Prague. The change of S in SH is typical of teh Albanian language like SKODRA in SHKODRA etc. You don't need further info on JULIAN and his reforms and THE LAW on which THE WESTERN CIVUILISATION IS BASED today.
WITH point 2 and 3 I ANSWER TO THE CONCERNS OF ALBANIANS HAVING TO DO WITH BYZANTIUM OR NOT.
OUR TODAY FLAG IS BYSANTIAN- but you ignore this facts and still pretend to SPEAK AND PREACH.
5. Saint ALBANI is another example of the contribution of Albanians in teh WESTERN CIVILISATION- you are Christians thanks to him.
6. Scanderbeg is ILLUSTRE personality of the WESTERN CULTURE- you can here VIVALDI, look to teh portraits of Rembrandt, and meet him in MANY MANY operas of the FRENCH, ENGLISH, ITALIAN, GERMAN and (Czechand POLISH too) authors=WESTERN. HE was named by POPE the defender of Christianize- NOT a SERB or POLISH.
7. POPE Clemente XI is another personality (100 million Germans have only today their FIRST Pope)
8. MOTHER THERESA is not peripheral figure in the WESTERN CIVILISATION
I can cite here other "minor" names but I guess for a reasonable for a ‘good people’ as you say WOULD BE ENAOUGH.
It is not a prepotency to say this: but NOT MANY NATIONS can claim SUCH PERSONALITIES.
To say that this NATION is NOT WESTERN=EUROPEAN is a pure IDIOTIC statement.
YOU CAN ALSO watch teh MAP- WE ALBANIANS are in teh WESTERN Balkans also FISICALY in teh EAST and NORTH EAST we have Slavs as neighbors.
If you cover yourself with PREJUDICES sooner or letter you will find your self to be a RACIST.
Albanian Culture was NEVER in the CORNER of the WESTERN civilization it is the ignorance of the people like yours dear Mirek that puts it there.
P.S. for a fair and honest debate I ask b92 to publish also my previous post and not censure- I use the words and STYLE that people here use in INSULTING Albanians. Just answer with the same STYLE.
pre 15 godina
Eagle
... there are no more opportunities from Russia to Serbia, "just empty words with no deeds".
Listen Eagle what you mean with empty words ? D'you believe Serbia alone could stand against NATO and deadlock the Kosovo and Methohija stealing process ? Do you believe that without our "empty words" Serbia would enjoy the support of some 80% of the world ?
I am far from idealizing my country but everyone who vainfully tries to split the Serbs and the Russians is an enemy for the Serbs. Russia provides them with a chance to remain Serbs but not unidentified cosmopolitan human beings. Very soon recognition process will start to work in the reverse mood.
pre 15 godina
Oh those Russians !
just want to say that I can't agree with you more.My stance is pro-russian , believeing that we really need each other (Serbia needs Russia more of course).
We have the same problem: the 'civilised' West is negatively biased against us.Whatever Russians do is always looked down to as if they can't do anything which isn't brutal or conspirative. And should I stress how extremely biassed "civilized" West was and still is in the civil war in ex-YUgoslavia against the Serbs?
As you said we have to preserve who we are in spite of what 'civilized' West may think of it.They have prooven so far that they are being unobjective and disrespecful of the international Law (when it suits their intetests, and when is against ours).
Russia and Serbia have the same struggle to fight.
pre 15 godina
ben with 26 recommandations
LOL!
what do Cyril and Methodius or even their disciple Clement of Ohrid have to do with your statement?!
Myself I thought that the heart of the western culture was Rome and its civilisation(itself adopting ancient greek elements), but if you say so ... :)
I too have the sensation that Mr Jeremic is starting to act like a jukebox, but, well, partially that's the job of a FM.
pre 15 godina
Thats funny Ben Because we did the same against the Turks and here we are Christian Serbs unlike muslim Albanians. But anyway maybe you and PRN should pick up a history book some day and read the true history of Europe not your grandfathers version of Europes history. Third world compeared to who, The the Albanians, please you still have tribes and blood feuds. Albanians made us Christians now thats good. What a joke. And the albanians taught the Serbs how to write, another joke. Western way of life started with the Greeks not the illyrans, and definetly not the albanians. Again read a book and don't rely on grand dad's history leasons. Have a nice day profesor Ben. And THANK YOU Peter Sudyka.
pre 15 godina
It is appalling to read and hear to what extent history can be manipulated.
Dear Serbian friends, ... when I say something about history of my country I mean it as I have full proof.
My Grandfather was born in Nis (today's Serbia) and his father and grandfather too, before being wiped out with 100,000s of other Albanians between late 19th and very early years of 20th century.
The Albanian families that forcibly sent in Kosovo (and TUrkey) were nicknamed and EVEN today are
called "Muhaxher"...
Does any SERB historian knows this....?
Ben is Right when he points out what we have delivered to the Western civiliastion.
Albanians left a mark in the civilisation of many countries.
Alexander the Great, Constantine the Great, Kemajl Attaturk, to the former leaders of Egypt Jordan HAD ONE THING IN COMMEN, they ALL HAD ALBANIAN BLOOD.
I could continue further I thing is pointless, as Serbian propaganda in Serbia supersedes the TRUTH.
Hope the above is clear.
pre 15 godina
ben
To finally put your argument to rest, I will print out your glaring inaccuracies in black and white for all to see:
"5. Saint ALBANI is another example of the contribution of Albanians in teh WESTERN CIVILISATION- you are Christians thanks to him. "
- Pope Clement XI was born on July 23, 1649 and died on March 19, 1721.
- Poles were among the last Slavs to be Christianized and this was in the year 966.
So please tell me how in the world could have Slavs become Christian thanks to Pope Albani if the Poles were Christianized 683 years before the Pope was even born?
"6. Scanderbeg is ILLUSTRE personality of the WESTERN CULTURE- you can here VIVALDI, look to teh portraits of Rembrandt, and meet him in MANY MANY operas of the FRENCH, ENGLISH, ITALIAN, GERMAN and (Czechand POLISH too) authors=WESTERN. HE was named by POPE the defender of Christianize- NOT a SERB or POLISH. "
I have never seen a portrait of Skenderbeg anywhere, be it in Poland, Germany or the Netherlands, be it in museums, operas or theaters, and he is not half as important to the world of Christianity as you make him out to be, especially not like Poland's Jan III Sobieski led the Holy League (Poland-Lithuania, Austria, Saxony, Bavaria, Franconia and Swabia) to the most decisive victory over the Turks at the gates of Vienna in 1683, the battle which brought about the greatest turn of the tide against the Ottoman Empire. Since that victory, they became weaker and weaker until they fell apart. Skenderbeg, while a brave fighter, achieved nothing as great.
"7. POPE Clemente XI is another personality (100 million Germans have only today their FIRST Pope) "
Your point? Pope John Paul II (born Karol Wojty³a in Wadowice, POLAND) was sometimes called the greatest Pope of all time, and guess what, he was Polish too.
Your Byzantine and Illyrian arguments I will not go into, because Albanians claiming these civilizations as their own would be like me as a Pole claiming German, Sarmatian, Hungarian, Lithuanian and Russian as my own too.
I hope I have made my point.
pre 15 godina
Peter Seduka. Albanian culture, is unique, is based on old traditions of illirians, has its own language, music, dances, traditional rythem and so on. You have no clue on what you talking about. Is like me saying, polish culture is closer to german then slavic. Wrong
pre 15 godina
Minister Jeremic, Joining the EU and making Russia a closest ally are two "contradicting" policy. It is obvious that the US & EU does not consider kosovo a part of Serbia anymore as they supported the kosovo UDI. so why do you want to have a good relation with robbers like the US?? is your party (DS) truly for preservation of Kosovo?? if so, why do you insist in joining the EU where in fact most of these states supported the kosovo UDI. I think DS have to overall its true policy about kosovo and to determine its true direction whether to the EAST or WEST
pre 15 godina
I believe that in general it doesn't matter who personally rules Serbia now. Both Tadic or Nikolic will have to do almost the same things. The reason is that EU doors for Serbia are closed for long if not forever. Now as you should know Sarkozy said he will veto any expansion of the union.
So despite imaginary carrots offerd for Serbia Europe can do very little. And thus ideologically close to them DS coalition can't help sticking Russia. Nikolic who is morally close to Russia will do the same for there's no other way and there's no other open door. From this point of view with different motivations both will come to the same policy.
Moreover Russia has got a lot of advantages over EU. We have enough money , will power , military force , support in the world , concentration of state power , natural resources ect. So no matter who rules Serbia now closer partnership with Russia is just a matter of time.
Besides western propagandist ducks made their job and Europeans "love" both of ouw nations the same way ... I can see accusations of the Serbs that they are like Russians ... After all it's not so bad cause it evidently means that we too are like Serbians !
Good news !
.
pre 15 godina
PRN
Judging by your argument, Albania's culture definitely puts it closer to the Middle East, North Africa and Turkey than to Europe.
Also, apart from Aleksander Lukashenko's government, what do you have against Belarus? Come to think of it, what do you have against Russia's people as well?
Not a very good argument.
pre 15 godina
ben
Ah yes, I forgot one great Albanian: Skenderbeg.
pre 15 godina
to Oh Those Russians:
In Serbia we are very thankful for Russia's support. As you can see the alban jealousy is very evident...
pre 15 godina
It's great that Serbia's govt is keeping its strong relations with Russia, while at the same time pursuing closer EU ties. It definitely keeps more options open politically and economically.
As for some of the Albanian posters I'm not sure of why you've posted these types of comments here. I would encourage B92 to not post ridiculous comments since they do not help the dialogue.
For example look at this lol from Ben, "FACT is that the same west to whom we BELONG and to which CULTURE was BORN also in our LAND.
In other words dear Peter: for me is MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer a i.e. a German than any other nation that you mentioned"
pre 15 godina
Ben, seriously, if you believe what you wrote I feel sorry for you man...wanted to react to your particular claims, but it just doesn't make sense, whole your 'comment' is made by a dreamy freak - like...
But one thing - if you are such a great nation (no matter if in Albania or Kosovo) tell me - how's that you are alternatively with Moldova THE poorest and THE least developed country in Europe, NOT having much to do with Europe anyway, but I'm now talking about infrastructure & the general degree of development? Is that because you have 'supposedly' the Illirian roots or what? Tell us, educate us, come on...why should we not have a laugh this afternoon?:)
Peter: your detestation towards Albanians is going out of control.
Historically, the contribution of teh Albanian culture to teh western culture is in no way comparable to your Polish or any other Slav nation- and you can also join forces if you wish. This is FACT. You are third world compared to us. Everything that you have is build on the culture of the ancient nations including Albanian. You write in Cyrillic because Byzantium made that possible for you. You are Christians because St. Albani in one side and on the other the Byzantium priests (of which many Albanians) made you Christians etc…
The heart of the WESTERN culture is in Mediterranean (including Albania) NOT in the SLAVIC conquered lands. So please try to control you xenophobia and think and think again before writing non senses.
FACT is that the same west to whom we BELONG and to which CULTURE was BORN also in our LAND.
In other words dear Peter: for me is MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer a i.e. a German than any other nation that you mentioned
BUT to YOU
RUSSIA and Belarus are MUCH MUCH more closer than Germans or other westerns nations. This is a FAct at least in your case dear pan-slavic defender.
Anyhow your stance and the one of Slovakia for e.g. is only making us Albanians a great honor- it tales the world that a small and ancient civiliasation is fighting with dignity to preserve HER CULTURE, from the much greater invader Slavic nation.
It is absolutely clear to us that a Serbs can count on teh support of their Slavic brothers as they do and did but this will NEVER discourage us from fighting this Asian culture to preserve our identity.
(ben, 16 July 2008 15:00)
pre 15 godina
veki
Strange as is but I totally agree with you. Moreover I know it for sure that not only Serbs are the victims but the Albanians as well.
Once disguided by the West after many promices for independence K-Albanians found thamselves entramped in the reservation with unclesr prospects. This autumn when dollar's collapse is expected the US may have no will or desire to take care of Kosovo. Only the God knows how soon the Europeans will start to change their views ... So K-Albanians are in nothing better situation than the Serbs.
You are right the Anglo-Saxon domination in the world for many nations mens merely hidden discriminations. But times they are changing and we shall see how the things run in a few years to come. One example : for many years NHL used to invite our ice-hockey players ignoring the existing Russian contracts. They were rich and cared little what we think or say. Today we started to do the same and they are shocked. Now our teams have much higher salaries and they do not care what NHL thinks when we buy their best players.
So best if the Albanians are ready for such developments and stop hiding behind NATO cause sooner or later you will have to deal with the Serbs. You are neighbours and none of you is going to settle on the Moon ... If other Albanians were so reasonable peace in the Balkans would be safer.
.
pre 15 godina
Ratko
D'you remember the song :
We shall overcome
We shall overcome
We shall overcome
Some day ...
Oh deep in my heart
I do believe that
We shall overcome
Some day !
Good luck !
pre 15 godina
"…. everyone who vainfully tries to split the Serbs and the Russians is an enemy for the Serbs…"
Yes, we have a lot of enemies. But don't worry, they can't succeed, our ties are much to deep and strong…. We are grateful for your present support and we will never forget your previous support, in some of the most difficult periods of our history.
It's a pity that we can't elect V. Putin for our president.
pre 15 godina
ben
Firstly, ben, please stop claiming Contantine and anything to do with Byzantium as Albanian. That would be like me claiming the achievements of Wit Stworsz or Jan Heweliusz as Polish because they were born in Poland (except then under German/Prussian rule). There is no way you can link Byzantium to Albania, like I cannot link Poland to Bismarck's Germany/Prussia..
Secondly, the Russian achievements were only the ones involving space. The Polish ones I mentioned were Mikolaj Kopernik (father of modern astronomy and founder of today's concept of our solar system) and Maria Curie-Sklodowska (revolutionary research culminating in the concept of radioactivity). You want more Poles? Ignacy Lukasiewicz, created the conept and started the first oil industry (as well as the first kerosene and parafin lamps). Guess who created kevlar as well... all Poles. In any case, the argument was about all Slavs, not just Poles, so I gave more than just Polish examples.
Finally, Western culture was born in Rome and Greece, no one ever mentioned Byzantium, Illyrium, let alone Albania as being as important or profound.
arti
The only thing ben did was to attack the Slavs, and all I did was defend. You would do the same.
pre 15 godina
Ben, you are not direct desendents of the Illyrans. That I read, a mear spin off the Illyran tree mixed with other ethnicities, But not true Illyran. Serbs were Serb And still are Serbs. Illyran, to a tribe that sounds like Albanian to, We are Albanian and invented the world and our land is all of Europe, Slavs this and Slavs that... You guys sound like a broken record. All we Serbs say is that Kosovo is Serbian and we left our mark there, untill you guys tried to wipe it off the Serbian Kosovo map. You say all of balkans is Albanian because of the Illyrans, Funny how a people work so hard and the Albanians try to take credit for it. It's funny how the Albanian version of history is diffrent from the countries that suround you. OOPS! Sorry You guys invented history. Every people has their people that put a mark on history including you guys, but when you guys turn others into being albanian just to bump up your mark in history, now that grabbing at straws just to out do someone outside of you history ring and to prove false facts. You sound pretty smart, why don't you put those brains into makeing peace in the Balkans instead of trying to prove to us that your Albanian propaganda is true. Good luck, FIFA won't even say you a independent country. Shouldn't have cut any corners when declairing independence. RES 1244, Kosovo is AND STILL Serbian
pre 15 godina
"It is absolutely clear to us that a Serbs can count on teh support of their Slavic brothers as they do and did but this will NEVER discourage us from fighting this Asian culture to preserve our identity.|It is absolutely clear to us that a Serbs can count on teh support of their Slavic brothers as they do and did but this will NEVER discourage us from fighting this Asian culture to preserve our identity."
"So please try to control you xenophobia and think and think again before writing non senses."
Well, as a typical Asiatic Slav that I am, I am impressed by the non xenophobic respect that you have for us and our Asiatic culture. Clearly, you are a representative of a great and tolerant civilization....
pre 15 godina
Ben & the others,
I'm not going to go into your claim that today's Albania has something to do with Western culture. It is clearly a nonsense and there are absolutely no facts supporting your claim (in the same way anyone in Euro-Asian area could claim 'their bit' in contributing to the West, and, at least in a way it is so, doesn't mean those nations have anything common with the West as such today though...).
What I want to write about here today is your twisted concept of 'Slavs'. You probably ahve an idea there is a sort of 'Panslavism' that some people may have tried (and failed) to foster in the past. Put simply - it's a nonsense, not smaller than your 'western' claims. There is nothing like that. Countries like Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Slovenia, Croatia have nothing to do culturally with Russia, Belarus and most of the Slavic Balkans. Our culture is (and always was - even during communism/socialism) western, based on Catholicism or Protestantism and historically belonging to the Holy Roman Empire & thus Western Christianity. You can mention our languages - yes they are Slavic-based, but they belong to the group called 'Western-Slavic' languages (Czech, Polish, Slovak, Slovenian). What our clear identity is we are Central Europeans, not Eastern Europeans (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, most of Balkans, incl. all Orthodox countries, incl. Greece). There is a huge difference between us and Eastern Christians and our cultures. So if anyone tries to put all 'Slavic' people into one basket they simply don't know what they are talking about. If you still don't believe, consider this - Prague had been THE capital of the West for a few centuries, being the seat of the Holy Roman Emperor (approzimately bet. 14th & 16th centuries). All good historians know that. So if anyone in Europe, outside the obvious Western Europe, can claim they do and always have belonged to the West it's Central Europe, not South-Eastern Europe or beyond. Hope this is a good information for you. All the Best to All good people.
pre 15 godina
So many Illyrians but not one Iliya amongst them.
Your arrival in the lands of Rashka was on the coat tails of the Ottomans. I can advise you that Albania, like Croatia like Greece are Latin renditions for these regions. The people identify themselves as Shqyptars, Horvats and Hellenes respectively.
Depending on whether you subscribe to a world history according to encyclopedia Britannica or Germanica or whatever you can make your own conclusions when these people were first mentioned on these lands
Rasci was the name by which the Serbians were known and referred to by the Latins before the arrival of the Ottomans. The land of Rashka was distinctly Serbian.
I can also advise you that your UDI is nothing more than you exercising your perceived squatting rights over Serbian land. This may be acceptable in some legal jurisdictions around the world but certainly it is not a right anywhere where the legal owners are still present.
Your attempt to exterminate the Serbs and their culture from their ancestral lands has come to nothing. It was close but by any reckoning you have definitely played all your cards and all of them prematurely.
The world politic changes and yes it will change as sure as night turns to day.
The great human migration supposedly came out of Africa, into Asia and then into Europe. There are other theories but this matters not.
The question is not what culture is best or which is worth preserving over another. These are dynamic features. It is much easier to recognize which cultures are on a one way path to self destruction. This cannot be achieved by invasion alone.
I know who I have my money on.
Don’t believe me just look at your no brainer history books that you subscribe to and all will agree that when the Mongols and Manchus invaded China they became Chinese, just as the Hellenes and Romans came to ancient Egypt they took on Egypt’s universal religion, the idea of heavenly rule over the world and sacred science, and when the hordes later came to Rome, the same, or when the hordes came to Ancient Egypt, Babylon etc. The legacy of superior culture always prevails no matter what the name the rose goes by.
Europe was the domain of the Neanderthal shamans and their legacy is so profound that it is everywhere but not obvious to most people. This is the same with the later ancient cultures of southern Europe which developed during the last ice age.
How much do today’s Albanians inherit from these ancients cultures is at best minimal and at worst zero? Your attempts to look for answers beyond how you live your everyday lives is laughable so the answer is simple and requires no stories from grandfathers or blood tests or whatever is fashionable today.
Simply look in the mirror.
pre 15 godina
Ben,
"…..WE DO … LIVE IN A ….. DEEP in the lands controled by the ROMAN empire and first neighbors with GREEKS. BOTH OF THEM WOULD HAVE NOTICED THE "ARRIVAL" of Albanians- as they DID FOR SLAVS. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ON THIS and NOTHING HAVE SAID- for OBVIOUS reason. …"
Yes, exactly to the point, they had nothing to say about you for very obvious reason - you were not there.
You, Albanians can believe that you are living on Balkans for many thousands of years, that you are descendants of Ilirians, that you developed western civilization and who knows what else, but that doesn't mean this is actually a true.
This Ilirian theory was first formulated by the Austrian court historians, (with very specific geo - political goal in mind …), in the late 1880's. During Turkish time you didn't have Albanian identity, but Turkish.. Your propaganda turned history on it's had. You are claiming that you were victims of some kind of permanent genocide that Serbs were committed against you through the centuries. In reality, just oposite was the case - when you converted to Islam, you become privileged class in Ottoman Empire. You were systematically oppressing and terrorizing Christians, Serbs in the first place, for centuries. Muslim identity and top position in the Ottoman hierarchy, (you had more than forty Grand Vezirs), allowed Albanians to colonize Kosovo by cleansing the Serbs.
Albanian nationalist elites Albanian nationalism and hatred towards Serbs was motivated by the desire of your nationalist elite to keep their privileged position above the Serbs.
Albanian scholars interested in thruth:
http://www.geocities.com/aia_skenderbeg/albanian_sources.html
P. S. I see that you love to use capital letters. It has a similar effect as shouting. Do you think that it makes your massege more effective? Please, use less shouting and more arguments….
Mirek, you are right to point religion, Catholicism versus Orthodox Christianity, as a major division factor among the Slavs. This factor decides our loyalties. We, Serbs, feel very strongly connected with a Greece and Russia because of this major part of our identity. Catholic Slavs are loyal to Vatican. These are the facts. But to say that Catholic Slavs doesn't have anything in common with Orthodox Slavs is overstatement to put it mildly. Despite our quarrels and often, ehm, how would I say, complicated history, a lot of time that passed sinds our migrations, exposure to different foreign cultures and mixing with other races, we still have a lot in common. Our similarities are obvious to any neutral observer. For example Serbs and Croats speak same language. (Many Croat nationalists will insist their language is different, but they understand Serbs perfectly never the less …).
We Serbs, are very aware of our common heritage and feel closeness also with you, western Slavs…
pre 15 godina
PRN, that was the best Albanian history leason I ever had. Well, probably all comeing from the "Albanian" history book. BEN & PRN, please show me where I can read about all these great people that have Albanian blood in them. To the Serb camp here me included. We can argue till were blue in the face and these people will pull history out of their ears. Just like in Kosovo they prevoke us and we by defending ourselfs argue till no end because we know we are right. Let them have their say with fales facts that was taught to them from only their version of history. The world and Serbs know our history and they know theirs. It's all Albanian propaganda here to try to get under our skin. And I love it. They try so hard to push that propaganda on us that it make me LOL! Keep it comeing guys.
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