"Germany will help Kosovo"

Given all the atrocities committed by the German forces on Yugoslavian soil during World War II, the Germans should not intervene in Balkan matters till at least 2045 (hundred years after the end of WW II)...

Not a surprised at all. Germany is one of the major international law violators

Beeing German I'm constantly ashamed about the foreign politics of this country in the Balkans!
Shame on you Germany!!!

This is is a way for Germany to thank the albanians for their help during WWII.

Serbia helped the allies, but the allies have forgotten all about it. Only the axis powers remembers their accomplices.

'We hope that the formation of the new Serbian government will bring a positive u-turn for these two countries to cooperate in future,” said the diplomat.
In other words, 'we are glad that Tadic and company are in power, so they can give us Kosovo on a silver platter'.

Nothing ever changes, does it? Germans tried to destroy Serbia in WWI, WWII, and are still trying to destroy Serbia today. Serbs need to wake up to this reality, and show them that we are not giving an inch of Kosovo. Not one inch!
Cheers!

Since Germany obviously lost quite a bit of Euro in that black hole, the question is obvious:

who is that Günter "Loser"?

Otherwise anyone is welcome to visit any German traveler forum where experienced travelers express their opinion. It looks, like there is overwhelming support of Serbia, not some illegal institutions and American neo-cons.

These posts are very embarrassing.

5. kufr - Why do you insist on believing the propaganda you preach? Albania was on the side of the ALLIES during both World Wars. Albania was conquered by the Germans (like Serbia was), but unlike Serbia, when the Germans asked for a list of the country's Jews, the Albanians refused to comply. Albania is respected in Israel as the only country to have saved 100% of the Jews within its borders from the Holocaust.

Albania was in civil war and wanted to get rid of the occupying forces, be they Germans or Italians or Serbs. There was an Albanian division that supported the Germans in fighting the Serbs to free Kosova from Yugoslavia, but that was their strict goal: liberation. They didn't subscribe to the genocidal policies of Hitler.

On to the relevance of the article: it's unfair to Germans today to stick the Holocaust in their faces and claim that they have no say in Balkan affairs. These Germans did not cause the Holocaust, and you cannot blame them for the mistakes of their ancestors. Instead, blame yourselves for the atrocities you committed most recently during the Yugoslav wars in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosova. That is actually YOUR generation which can be blamed.

Whether you like it or not, Germany is a key player in Europe. It has power, influence, and a substantial economy. As a central member of Europe and the European Union, German input is essential and necessary. Today we have a democratic Germany that believes in the values of freedom, equality, and self-determination, as well as the respect for valid international law. Germany's main concern is stability for Europe, and that means stability in the Balkans. Germany is doing the right thing by endorsing the only realistic and acceptable solution for Kosova: independence as a sovereign European nation.

I appreciate Germany's friendship and support, and I applaud their dedication to stability in the Balkans. Thank you, Germany!

Beeing German I'm constantly ashamed about the foreign politics of this country in the Balkans!
Shame on you Germany!!!
(Joachim, 8 July 2008 13:02)

Congratulation to you “Joachim” on your comment! Just few corrections, since you are a “German” you should be ashamed about the foreign politics of “your” country in the Balkans and not “this” country. You should not end the sentence with Shame on you Germany because “you” means individual or group where you don’t belong, each is evident you don’t, so it sound that your are not what you pretend to be.

Germany paid dearly for the atrocities committed in WWII.

Appologised, paid reparations to the victims (or countries) and was occupied for several decades before was it revived and became a key European power once again.

Germany now needs to help the Balkans and lecture on the peoples of this region on WHAT SHOULD NOT be repeated.

Marco, Amsterdam

What about the Serb forces, which (not who) committed attrocities in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Kosova? According to your theory, they should not be heard alive until 2100. I agree with you on this.

Danke Deutschland!!!

It is such a pleasure to see the genuine support of the AUTHENTIC DEMOCRACIES for Kosova.

I am very confident that in very near future Kosova will become a real democracy and remove the dark cloads coming from Moscow and Belgrade.

Walk free and proud Kosova!

Your freedom will never be questioned again.

P.S. it makes me laugh when I read the posts like (Marco, Amsterdam, 8 July 2008 12:25) a Serb preaching democracy to the greatest democracy of Europe with unprecedented economic solidarity for decades with the European Continent and the world- Germany.

azir wrote:

"Together we can appropriately handle uncompromising Serbs. My understanding is you guys are experience in these matters."

Azir. . .the only experience the Germans have in Serbia is eventually getting kicked back to Deutscheland!

Marco, Amsterdam wrote: "the Germans should not intervene in Balkan matters till..."
This is not the Balkan matter. This is the Albanian matter.

Germany, as it has always, has chosen the wrong horse. they have lost already two times siding with albanian extremists, and ...they seem to be condemned to repeat their severe mistakes...

as far as I am concerned, the Germans are free to finance and build up some infra-structure ( since the Albanians have proven their inability to do so, even with serbina financing ) until Serbia takes over again. that´s the least they can do, after what they have done to Serbia in two world-wars.

so, go on Germany, make some investments in the southern province, you owe it to Serbia!

"Germany will help Kosovo"

yeah, sure two disgusting accomplices from WW two helping each other.

Too bad Germans, we had kicked you out twice and we'll do it again. You can bet on that.

No surprise with this position. The EU is just Germany and its satillites. EULEX is a wretched extension from longstanding EU policy. Germany's position is well known since they trained the KLA in the war ciriculum and tactics inside Albania proper (not illegal Albania).

Quelle surprise!!
We all know what happened in 1941.

ThankYou Germany for your continued support. Together we can appropriately handle uncompromising Serbs. My understanding is you guys are experience in these matters.Peace , democracy and long live our friendship.

kufr wrote: "Serbia helped the allies, but the allies Have forgotten all about it."
.There were two sides among allies: Westerners, and Easterners. You choose the second, naturally you belong there-eastern civilization. Don't be ingratitude toward Russians. They are helping you a lot.

"Thank you Germany for your continued support. Together we can appropriately handle uncompromising Serbs. My understanding is you guys are experienced in these matters. Peace, democracy and long live our friendship.
(Azir, 8 July 2008 13:42)"

Azir,

Please read your own words once again (I corrected some spelling mistakes if you do not mind). Not only do you glorify attrocities committed by Nazi Germany against Serbs and many others around the world, but you also believe that Germans care for Albanians. Just because you people were happy to do some dirty work for the Nazis does not mean that they considered you "Arian" or no "Untermenschen". In addition, Albanians are orders of magnitude more uncompromising (or less compromising) than Serbs and secondly you guys cannot accomplish anything without outside help.

All of this sounds great for one of those 30 second news clips on the BBC. Germany shows it's a proponent of peace, love, and tolerance, Gunter and Fatmir make kissy face on TV, and the illusion that Kosovo is the world's newest democracy is once again mentioned. One might even believe it were one just a passing observant.

Now tackle the rampant poverty, corruption that makes Montenegro look like Slovenia, 18th century prejudice, and yes that Serb Assembly that everyone says they're against but can do nothing to stop, and you might have some more substance to your speech next time around.

Good Luck Pristina. You need it more than you know.

Good Luck Mitrovica. You're on your way to becoming Kosovo's RS.

It's obvious that countries that have recognized kosovo will help also his development..regarding Eu integration the German diplomat seems too optimistic...

kufr: "Serbia helped the allies, but the allies have forgotten all about it. Only the axis powers remembers their accomplices."

The world thak God is no longer divided on Axies and Alies! This division is as obsolete as the one of the Peloponesian war? Does it still matter who supported Athens and who supported Sparta?

Come to the 21th century!

Jevic, 8 July 2008 11:15
Marco, Amsterdam, 8 July 2008 12:25
kufr, 8 July 2008 13:10
veki, 8 July 2008 15:13
Dragan, 8 July 2008 15:47
Jan (Amsterdam), 8 July 2008 17:31

It is obvious that opinions like yours will never help to establish the Utopia of a peaceful Europe. It is obvious that every single European nation, whether recognised as a state or not at the time being, committed some kind of attrocity agains another nation in the past centuries.

Marco, Jan - never forget the leading role of Dutch slave traders and the so-called "politionele acties" against Indonesian liberation acrtivists in the late 1940s. When criticising Germans for their 1933-1945 behaviour, please keep in mind that among all occupied countriesw in WW II, the Netherlands was the one with the largest percentage of collaborants. Did anyone oppose to Westerbork?

Kufr, bear in mind the Usti nad Labem massacre and the Dead Marsh of Brno, in which thousands of German civilists, among which German anti-fascist activists who spent WW II in concentration camps) were killed for being German (easy job as they were easy to be recognised by their white bondage with the letter "N" for "Nemec" - the Czech equivalent of the Berman Judensterne).

Jevic, Veki, Dragan - never forget Srebrenica, Vukovar, Račak, etc..

Off course - Albanians had their part of crimes committed against their neighbours. That's not my point.

My point is to stress the fact that in establishing a free and peaceful Europe, there is no point in looking back. We should learn from our past, but not avenge it.

Therefor, don't point at your brother abroad and accuse him of the crimes committed by his ancestors, because he can do the same to you.

@kufr

You wrote: This is a way for Germany to thank the Albanians for their help during WWII.

I HOPE that b92 will NOT censure my comments.

Serbs who post comments here are more upset with few Croats or Albanians cooperating with the Germans in WWII then they are with Germans themselves.

WWII-Several people from almost all nations in Balkans and Europe somehow somewhere cooperated with Germans.
However I will not say that all Albanians cooperated with the Nazis because of few.

Why I want say that?
My Grandfather was captured from Nazis in Gjirokastra south of Albania.
His house was burned to the ground.
He was transported into a Nazi camp in KOSOVO and killed with 109 Albanians-my father was only 3 years old and I never had the chance to meet my Grandfather.

If you are SERBIAN Serbians were linked with Nazis. I will not say that Serbs cooperated with Nazis because of few either.

Respect
Alb_MCSE

P.S. it makes me laugh when I read the posts like (Marco, Amsterdam, 8 July 2008 12:25) a Serb preaching democracy to the greatest democracy of Europe with unprecedented economic solidarity for decades with the European Continent and the world- Germany.
(ben, 8 July 2008 13:45)

Ben, I have never been to Serbia (I have visited Croatia though). Germany = the greatest democracy of Europe? Read the book "Ganz unten" by Günther Wallraff on how Turkish "gastarbeiter" are treated in your precious Germany. You will not laugh anymore! The only reason Germany is spending money on underdeveloped countries is to shake off their Nazi past.

PS. My great grandfather's house in Rotterdam was damaged by German bombs in 1940. According to my grandfather our family never received any compensation from the Germans...

Be careful about this. They have reasons to help create a stronger Kosovo as it will become a dumping ground for all the for all the Muslims which Germany wants to deport.

These posts are very embarrassing.

5. kufr - Why do you insist on believing the propaganda you preach? Albania was on the side of the ALLIES during both World Wars. Albania was conquered by the Germans (like Serbia was), but unlike Serbia, when the Germans asked for a list of the country's Jews, the Albanians refused to comply. Albania is respected in Israel as the only country to have saved 100% of the Jews within its borders from the Holocaust.


Your post speaks for itself, Albania was never invaded and on the side of the "allies" Italy and Albania and Greece, there were some ethnic Albanians who escaped into Greece including King Zog. But to imply that the Albanians were on the Allies side during WWII is pure fallacy and propoganda that continues to be preached by ill informed posters like yourself. Do you realize that Albania declared war on the US and allied? Albania did not offer any resistance to the Italians and Nazi's until the end of the war when all was lost. The Kosoov Albanians were firmly on the side of the Nazi's including the Skendenberg(sp) Nazi division.

@Franc
If it pleases you or not, I'm German, born in Germany, from German parents and grandparents, bearer of a German passport!
Nevertheless I disagree with the foreign politics of "this" country that I left in 1983. And beleive me that I have no intention ever to return to Germany except for visiting my family.
SHAME ON YOU GERMANY !!!

answer to most of the comments:
though I am not a German and my family has suffered a lot during WWII, one thing for sure: several times German governments have openly apoligized for their war-crimes and atrocities, but we are still waiting for an analog act of a Serbian government, as soon they are aware of their main-part in the troubles on the Balkans during the nineties. However I doubt that they will ever come so far to admit their guilt, certainly not with SPS-politicians in a government.

@kufr:
"This is is a way for Germany to thank the albanians for their help during WWII."
- Sure, nothing else. By that logic you can at least hope the Germans will lobby for handing over northern Kosovo to Serbia as a way of thanking the Serbs for the support given by the likes of Nedic, Ljotic, Pecanac.

"Serbia helped the allies, but the allies have forgotten all about it. Only the axis powers remembers their accomplices."
- France and Britain tried to help their traditional accomplices early on in the 1990s but funnily enough even they had to draw the line somwhere amid all the aggressions and ethnic cleansing committed by the Serb side, so...

Ataman,

Don't worry about Germany's finances. It is a very rich country. Maybe they gave Kosovo so far few hundred millions. That is a drop in the bucket compared to the hundreds of billions of dollars they paid for all kind of reparations all over the world. If I am correct Serbia also got a pretty large amount.

It doesn't surprise me Germany -you also helped them in WWII...

Danke Deutschhland from the botom of my heart!

"Marco, Jan - never forget the leading role of Dutch slave traders and the so-called "politionele acties" against Indonesian liberation activists in the late 1940s. When criticising Germans for their 1933-1945 behaviour, please keep in mind that among all occupied countries in WW II, the Netherlands was the one with the largest percentage of collaborants. Did anyone oppose to Westerbork?"

Gerro Beuk,

You reply contained some useful points. I am not sure what country you are from, but you do not have to teach me my country's history (although you may be Dutch yourself because of your name and the detailed knowledge). The Dutch slave trade and the military operations in Indonesia were a disgrace and should never have happened. I am not sure if the Dutch government ever apologized for that (even though it may be symbolic for things cannot be undone), but I assume so even though some people may have opposed that. Your claim about the highest percentage of people helping the Germans is a claim you should not make so openly unless you provide various reliable references and links. At least I know my family was clean. With respect to transportation camp Westerbork it is most likely that the existing Dutch resistance was too weak to liberate people from there. You may want to check the following link to educate yourself a little bit more on the history of Westerbork.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westerbork

As you can read it was initially established to house Jews and others who had fled Germany and Nazi occupied countries. After WWII The Netherlands took care of most people who had openly helped the Germans, although numerous escaped to Germany where they were protected by German law (many got the German citizenship and the German law prohibited to extradite people to other countries). Especially the older generation still do not like the Germans, but younger generations do not care and most Germans I know are descent people. The wars in Yugoslavia were all civil wars and I just do not buy it that the Serbs were much worse than the Croats, Bosnians, and Albanians. Because of foreign interference things got much worse than they could have been.

From Spunky: Wow! that's creative...is that all you got? this portreayal of Albanians to muslim jihdists its getting old and pathetic...if you want to be insulting, come up with something better, buddy. because nobody believes you nor your serb friends.

Where in my post did I refer to Albanians as jihdists or insult Muslims? It's a simple fact that Germany does have a large Muslim population and if you read the German news, their government is working on ways of deporting them. Finding a place to put them is a priority. Relocating migrant populations is nothing new.

I know there were quislings i Serbia. But Nedic is regarded as a traitor and he was executed as one too. The large majority of Serbs were anti-fascists and they continue to be anti-fascists up to this day. Now when Germany again show fascist behavior by supporting Kosovo independence they will need to be taught a lesson. International law should not be circumvented. It is very dangerous and, as Putin said, like a stick with two ends with the other end hitting you in the face.

Reading the comments of the Serbian camp one get the impression that they are pretty upset. Upset whenever there is an announcement of aid to the newest independent country of the world, Kosovo. They would prefer to see perpetual poverty and economic strangulation. Well the democratic Western countries know this fact very well and will make sure that those people get disappointed for a long time to come.
The Russians also wanted to strangulate West-Berlin. Well as we know evil did not triumph.

GORDO
Be careful about this. They have reasons to help create a stronger Kosovo as it will become a dumping ground for all the for all the Muslims which Germany wants to deport.
(Gordo, 8 July 2008 15:40)

Wow! that's creative...is that all you got? this portreayal of Albanians to muslim jihdists its getting old and pathetic...if you want to be insulting, come up with something better, buddy. because nobody believes you nor your serb friends
cheers
spunky

"They would prefer to see perpetual poverty and economic strangulation."

Joe, this may be one of the few times I agree with you.

Once you've recovered from the shock, feel free to read the rest.

It's in no one's interest to leave Kosovo, the EU's most recent acquisition, in perpetual poverty, and I can't see the logic, nor the rationality, of actually doing anything to prolong this. Poverty perpetuates poor standards of living. Poor standards of living only prolongs political and economic corruption, peasant-like mentality, and struggles of survival. History has shown that Kosovo has not, and cannot, be managed alone by either Serbs or Albanians. Both have run it into the ground. Therefore, international aid is the first thing that's needed.

But herein lies the problem. International aid to what amounts to the 4th most corrupt economy in the world as ranked by Berlin-based Transparency International (next to Cameroon, Cambodia, and Albania) does not bode well for seeing that aid money reach its intended target.

International management is also needed.

The issue many should be looking at is where this aid that's been promised is going, and more importantly WHO its going to. No sense in calling Kosovo anything resembling a functioning entity if people like Thaci, Sejdiu and others are living well and the vast majority of the population still live on less than a dollar a day with over 25% still without modern plumbing. With all the money pumped into Kosovo since FADURK, it should be one of the richest and most developed places in the Balkans.

@Joe:

Certain parts of Germany are indeed among the best-off places in the world. Certain parts are still on-par with Hungary or even worse. After 15 years there is still a great deal of imbalance and finger-pointing between the "East" and "West". Many "Ossis" do think, "Wessis" are are arrogant and "know everything better", many "Wessis" would associate 1/3rd of their own country with Russia.

So the country is not without issues and it needs a huge truckload of Euros to improve some things. My bet is, the eastern part with double-digit jobless rate does not care about Kosovo problems.

Did you note, the German cancelor is from the East, with family suffered from the communist past? It's little wonder, she is 200% supporting America at every occasion - and that can be seen on Kosovo politics.

@Mark, the Shqype: Undisputed fact: SS Skanderbeu was involved in killing all 100% Jews of Kosovo.

@Alb_MCSE: respect to your grandfather, may he rest in peace. He chose the right but difficult path and became a martyr. Yes, indeed, even some Russian nationalists helped Hitler in the hope, this is the proper way to get rid of Stalin.

@Konstantin Gregoric

I always find it funny when Serb posters here claim to know Albania's history better than Albanians.

Just for your information, Italy DID invade Albania (a country of just over 1 million people at the time) in the spring of 1939. Under equipped Albanian soldiers and private citizens fought the Italians in Durres and other regions but were easily overrun. While certain segments of Albanian society did accept the occupiers (land owners, etc), others kept on fighting back.

Organized guerrilla resistance began in 1941 largely by the communists and if your math is any better than your knowledge of your neighbor's history...you'll realize that that's a good 4 years before the war's end.

Approximately 28,000 Albanians died in WWII...that's about 1 in 40 people or 1 person for every square kilometer of the country. Here's a hint...they were most definitely not killed by the English or the Russians or the Americans. I hope you can figure out the rest.

-----------------------------

In any case, the past is the past. The generation that lived through and/or fought in WWII is pretty much gone to meet the Maker.

So let me ask you o great historian...what does YOUR generation have to brag about?

Congratulation to you “Joachim” on your comment! Just few corrections, since you are a “German” you should be ashamed about the foreign politics of “your” country in the Balkans and not “this” country. You should not end the sentence with Shame on you Germany because “you” means individual or group where you don’t belong, each is evident you don’t, so it sound that your are not what you pretend to be.
(Franc, 8 July 2008 14:44)

well, i was not this guy "Joachim", but, this guy IS for sure german. If you could speak, read and write german, you would know that a german would write this comment exactly the way Joachim did. I'm living in Germany, and i can tell you that's it's this way.

on the other hand, i can only back what is written by some other guy in here. if you ask germans on the street what they think about the "independence" of kosovo, you will find a huge majority that doesn't agree at all with the foreign policy of mr schröder and mrs merkel. no one understands this, but EVERYONE understands that we here will have to pay for the kosovo-ex-terrorists with our taxes. unfortunately the kosovo-case is not big enough to decide elections over here, otherwise the government would have never commited such a foreing policy suicide.

RE:
from Ben...
Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial is THERE TO REMIND TEH TRUTH FOR EVERYONE, who and what have done - DEAR SERBS. Apparently YOUR name there is not very present- this is the FACT.


Truth and facts distorted by misinformed Albanian extremists:

On October 30, 2007, a ceremony was held in the “Sukkat Shalom” Synagogue in Belgrade, Serbia, bestowing upon six individuals the title of Righteous Among the Nations for their efforts in saving Jews during the Holocaust. Those honored at the ceremony were Dr. Dusan Jovanovic, Andrija Latal, Petar Zankovic, Klara Baic, and Slobodan and Milenija Knezevic. Dr. Dusan Jovanovic received the medal and certificate of honor, while those of the other five posthumously honored individuals were accepted by their relatives. The President of Serbia, Mr. Boris Tadić, attended the ceremony as a guest of honor. Also present were Israel’s Ambassador to Serbia, H.E. Mr. Arthur Koll, Honorary President of the Union of Jewish Communities in Serbia, Mr. Aca Zinger, the extended families of the rescuers, Christian, Muslim and Jewish clergymen, the diplomatic corps and members of the Jewish community.
During the ceremony in Belgrade’s only functioning synagogue, “Sukkat Shalom,” the President of Serbia, Mr. Boris Tadić, addressed the gathering. After reflecting upon contributions made by Serbians during the Holocaust to help Jews, Mr. Tadić observed, “It is regrettable that even today in Europe, and elsewhere in the world, there are those who deny the existence of the concentration camps, the gas chambers and the Holocaust”.

H.E. Mr. Arthur Koll, Israel’s Ambassador to Serbia, said, “Sadly, 62 years after the victory over the Nazis and their collaborators, xenophobia, racism and antisemitism still exist. Such hatred is still amongst us, it is spreading and nowadays is the greatest danger for peace and stability in many regions, and for the world in general.” However, he continued, “This evening we are gathered here, in the only still active Jewish synagogue left in Belgrade, to learn from the past, to call for action in the face of bigotry and hatred in the present and above all, to pay tribute to the individuals whose acts showed then, and show us today, the right path to a better future. Andrija Latal, Petar Zankovic, Klara Baic, Slobodan and Milenija Knezevic and Dusan Jovanovic are the torch leading the camp, the moral compass, who in the dark days of World War II lit the light of human dignity, of humanity.”

The Rescue Stories

Dr. Dusan Jovanovic saved the lives of twenty Jews by hiding them in the municipal hospital in Novi-Sad which he ran.
Mr. Andrija Latal saved Laura, Lisa, and Rochele Elias by hiding them in his home in Sarajevo for two years.
Mr. Petar Zankovic helped smuggle and hide the Zaltkovich family during the years 1942-1943. In reprisal for these actions, the Nazis punished both him and his family.
Ms. Klara Baic concealed the children of the Danberg family in her home. Providing them with shelter in her home in June 1944, they remained there until the liberation of her town of Sobotiza in October 1944.
Mr. and Mrs. Slobodan and Milenija Knezevic took into their home Julia Irenfeld, who fled the Nazis in March 1943 when she was in her ninth month of pregnancy. Her son, Ilan Doron, born in hiding, lives today in Haifa and has three children.

to our dear "hungarian" friend Joe:

honey, I don´t know whether you didn´t read my comment, but as far as I am concerned, german money and investments are very welcomed in our province! they will help to build "scyscrapers" and to realize infrastructural projects, they will say how and you will obey.
I think that´s good, and then, when the time has come, Serbia will take over.

I am not upset at all! you´d love to read the opposite, but ..my dear alb... oh sorry, hungarian friend, I am afraid, it´s someone else who seems to be upset!

just take a look on this newly founded group of "lobbyists" :)

since they wait for the "wave", perhaps the first lesson for them should be to watch the first few seasons of "Bay Watch" :) don´t you agree?

@Konstantin Gregoric

I always find it funny when Serb posters here claim to know Albania's history better than Albanians.
(Ment, 8 July 2008 23:56)

Albania declared war on the US and its allies, Serbia never did. Sorry if you can't face facts and your history.

Albanian soldiers along with Italian infantry trie to invade Greece in 1939 and were promptly defeated until Germany stepped in. The Greeks will provide you with more than enough historical data, in fact, so will most Balkan historical archives.


Croatian soldiers were found dead lying in the streets of Stalingrad in Russia.

As far as Albanians are concerned, we did the same thing done countless times before. The moment we felt somebody was treading on our toes we said stop... we can't have this... we did the same thing against the Germans together with the Serbs and All other "Yugoslavs" back in the old days where "bratsvo jedinstvo" was the slogan of the day. You can't blame us for it, yes it's true you don't like the NEW reality but lets not forget we are neighbours... show some neighbourly respect and stop sabotaging everything Europe and the West stands for because you're sabotaging your own future and your children’s future.

Jovan,

Maybe you have some close personel friends and mutually you call each other "honey" but please take a big note: I have nothing common with that category of people.

(Jan (Amsterdam), 9 July 2008 19:25)

this shows how reliable is wikipedia as source.

Although it cannot be denied the merits of Serbs.

read my post above #49.

Albania is the ONLY European country where 100% of teh Jews survived.

"Nevertheless I disagree with the foreign politics of "this" country that I left in 1983."

And your new country is? Cuba, Venezuela, Belarus, North Korea...?

from Ben...
Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial is THERE TO REMIND TEH TRUTH FOR EVERYONE, who and what have done - DEAR SERBS. Apparently YOUR name there is not very present- this is the FACT.
________
Sorry Ben, you lose. 125 Serbian were presented with the honor of: “Righteous Among the Nations” last year. Pull your head out of the sand and read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_Among_the_Nations_by_country

or see the latest fromThe new Holocaust History Museum at Yad Vashem showing Boris Tadic accepting for Serbians last year. http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous_new/news.pdf

to our dear "hungarian" friend Joe:

you simply don´t get it, right?

your comments are so absolutely off the way that many here can only laugh about ´em.
honey, I would never adress you as a friend in reality, don´t fool yourself, amigo. :)

your comments perfectly display your intolerant attitude in regard to the events in the southern serbian province. our province, honey.

as for this list of righteous poeple, ben, where are the Albanians in that list?

I know there were quislings i Serbia. But Nedic is regarded as a traitor and he was executed as one too. The large majority of Serbs were anti-fascists and they continue to be anti-fascists up to this day. Now when Germany again show fascist behavior by supporting Kosovo independence they will need to be taught a lesson. International law should not be circumvented. It is very dangerous and, as Putin said, like a stick with two ends with the other end hitting you in the face.
(kufr, 8 July 2008 18:58)

RE: Nedic was a Serbian patriot

Before defaming a person you know nothing about, try learning about the man. A highly decoreated Serbian officer during the Balkan wars and WWI. He stepped in unwillingly to fill the role of Serbian PM as the Nazi's continued to kill Serbian civilians at an alarming rate as both the Cetnik and Partisian movements started killing German Officers.

He was flung off a 12th floor building by the Communist Partisans in 1945, Rankovic in fact without trial or recourse.

Nedic is a controversial figure, but without him , Serbia would have been erased from the map because the Nazi's would have allowed the Croatian Nazi Leader Pavelic Ustasha to take over responsible for the mass killings Serbian, Jewish, and Roma's along with other ethnic groups who opposed the Croatian Nazi state.

The holoacaust would have spread into Serbia proper.

Michael Thomas:

My comments relating to Kosovo's citizens living on less than a dollar (actually it was written "euro") a day, etc. came from a 2005 World Bank report entitled "Kosovo Poverty Assessment: Promoting Opportunity, Security, and Participation for All". Yes, it's three years old, and after rereading the article again, I've noticed that "37% live below" the euro a day level. So I retract the "vast majority" part. Still, unless drastic economic changes have been made since then, I fear it's still safe to say there remains a considerable group of people who continue to live in sub-standard conditions, and 37% of 2 million is almost 750,000.

You can download the entire report here:
http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/main?menuPK=64187510&pagePK=64193027&piPK=64187937&theSitePK=523679&entityID=000012009_20050713091826

My statements regarding Kosovo being the fourth most corrupt economy in the world come from Transparency International. You can find the information in their 2007 Global Corruption Barometer here
http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/gcb/2007

These statistics are not my own, nor do they come from any Serbian agenda-setting organization.

@konstantin gregovic

Again, your reading of history is amusing..and again...Albania had been invaded for over 2 years by the Italians when these so called "declarations of war on the Allies" happened. In fact, Albania was part of the "Kingdom of Italy."

Now of course, when the "king", Victor Emanuele, showed his face in the newly conquered country....he was shot right in the middle of Tirana.

Naturally, we had our share of people who aligned themselves with the occupier and did their bidding...just like in Serbia.

Jan: "The wars in Yugoslavia were all civil wars "

The wars in former Yugoslavia were NOT civil wars. They were parexcellence international wars!
What is a civil war?
It is a conflict between TWO camps within ONE nation. Everybody is faced with the grim choice to choose a side. Often brothers and sisters, parents and children choose different sides. Clasical examples of Civil wars were the Russian and the Spanish civil wars. Parhaps in Yugoslavia there was a civil war during WWII. If you are a Serb, you could join the chetniks, or the partisans, If you are a Croat, you could join the ustashas, or the partisans...

What is an international war?
When one nation attack another.

If your nation is the aggressor, your choice is to be belligerent or pacifist. If your nation is attacked, your choice is to resist or to capitulate.

With a great streach of imagination one could call the war in Slovenia a "civil" war, since there was a slim chance Yugoslavia to be preserved if JNA won.
After August 1991 there was no Yugoslavia. What followed were wars between its constituent nations!

I am amazed how much the germans hate the serbs!why?i am albanian,but the germans never have supported serbia.it is not like germans lost a lot of soldiers during ww2 in serbia,they all left for russia.
Although,the germans they don't care about albanians,serbs,turks,greeks,italians,their foreign policy follows USA,so they have to help Kosova money wise for now.
I lived briefly in germany in the 90's and if you were an ausslander you were an ausslander.
Different here in the USA though.Peace

Ilir,New London,Connecticut,USA

I find these ww2 postings so funny and interesting. where else can i find people as involved in the 2nd world war as i still am, but in the balkans? you'd think it was still 1945.

altho i do not like the lies and distortions i read on b-92 about ww2 (mainly from the nationalists) i am very touched by personal family memories. many of our families were decimated by the nazis (and their allies) -- in our case we lost an entire extended family (jews) in poland -- perhaps 100 people, including my would-be uncle. we can never forget such a thing, nor can i blame all germans (today) for the holocaust. but to all holocaust and genocide deniers, i just cannot bear to listen to the lies...

we are currently collecting all stories from the 2nd world war for a future work, and i ask Alb_MCSE, and anyone else, to send us your stories and memories.

thank you/chvala/felamenderat

robertoruss@yahoo.com

Mike,

I've noticed gross distortions in many of your posts regarding Kosova and Albania, but kept silent because they seemed too ridiculous to address. However, I've decided to challenge your comments in post #42 above. In particular, can you backup your statement that "the vast majority of the population still live on less than a dollar a day." Have you ever been to Kosova or Albania, I suspect not based on this comment. This is not to say that I agree with the rest of your comments, but I decided to focus only on the most blatant one of many in the interest of time and space.

I curiously await your response.

Germany will help Kosovo

Thank you very much Germany
we love you

Ben (#61),

Check out this link: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/righteous1.html

Apparently, there are 63 "righteous" among the Albanians -- compared to 127 from Serbia and 4863 from the Netherlands (so much for # 35 Gerro Beuk!).

Roberto:

I hope you can find some useful info on the below link.

Economist is considered generally as reliable source, for your easy, an extract:

"The Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial in Israel records 63 Albanians as “Righteous Among the Nations”, a title recognising those who risked their lives to save Jews. Romania has 53 such honourees, from a population six times Albania's. Russia has 124". (source The Economist 15 June 2007)

It would be nice to ask our Serb firnds how many Serbs are remembered in Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial- since they were the "anti-fascits" and according to our friends posting here in b92 we were alley with Hitler.

Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial is THERE TO REMIND TEH TRUTH FOR EVERYONE, who and what have done - DEAR SERBS. Apparently YOUR name there is not very present- this is the FACT.

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9321421

"Marco, Jan - When criticising Germans for their 1933-1945 behaviour, please keep in mind that among all occupied countries in WW II, the Netherlands was the one with the largest percentage of collaborants. Did anyone oppose to Westerbork?"

I already gave my comments yesterday. I am happy with the link of Gordo (#51).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_Among_the_Nations_by_country

I was not aware of this and I am not trying to use numbers to prove something right (or wrong). The fact that 4767 persons from The Netherlands are honored and listed shows that Gerro Beuk's comments had very little validity. I do not see Albania on this list. B92 should make it mandatory to provide reference sources for any claim made here and if not these claims should be removed. What is also disturbing is that many immigrants from Turkey and second generation Turks in The Netherlands are still denying the Armenian genocide by the Ottoman Empire during WWI. This is state policy in Turkey and such a country cannot become an EU member. In that sense I have respect for the Germans.

To Jan (#26, #39, #56), the proud Dutchman who is crying for a link to convince him that his countrymen did not oppose Germany WWII occupation too much:

Here you are:

http://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/hitler_s_foreign_legion__waffen_ss

Waffen SS volunteers per country discussed in the comments above:
* Albania : 3000 (1939 population 1073000, 0,28%)
* Serbia : 15000 (1941 population 3810000, 0,39%)
* the Netherlands : 50000 (1939 population 8729000, 0,59%)

I hope that this will do to make you stop defending your country and realise the point I tried to make - no nation nor state should feel itself morally better than others - because all of us have blood on our hands or those of our ancestors.

Therefor, comments like your friend Marco (#3) should be banned, rather than claims without links to sources.

Regarding the last, can you please prove your comment "Albanians are orders of magnitude more uncompromising (or less compromising) than Serbs" with a link, or otherwise remove it? Thanks.

RE: #55 “The holoacaust would have spread into Serbia proper.”
(konstantin gregovic, 9 July 2008 19:13)

The Holocaust DID spread to Serbia proper. The Nazis proclaimed Serbia to be “judenfrei” (i.e. ‘free of Jews’) years before the end of WW2, after all. And Nedić WAS a rightwing figure; you only need to read what Belgrade-based historian Milan Ristović has written on him for the necessary information. There’s nothing controversial about him; he was a Nazi puppet, plain and simple, and whatever he did, he certainly didn’t do it with the welfare of Serbia’s Jewish population in mind.
The units composed of members of Dimitrije Ljotić’s clerical fascist “Zbor” movement were closely involved with Nedić’s Qusiling administration, too. (For more information on how the Ljotić mob helped the Nazis just go to the local history museum in Smederevo...)
The same applies to Kosta Pećanac’s official chetniks, who had already terrorised the Muslim population in Serbia’s Sandžak region in the inter-war period.
Finally, Draža Mihailović’s chetniks fought against the Partisans, which played right into the Nazis’ hands, seeing as the Partisans were the one and only truly efficient resistance movement in fascist-occupied Yugoslavia.
If you want to give Serbian “patriotism” an even worse name by praising people like these as “Serbian patriots”, just go ahead…
(Al, 10 July 2008 19:04)

The Holocaust in Croatia saw over 750,000 Serbs, Jews, Romas, Jews and Gypsies murdered by the Croatian Extremist Pavelic government.

To imply that the quisling Nedic puppet government was Nazi in anyway is ludicrious:

They did not declare war on the allies, Hungary, Romania, Albania and Bulgaria did.

Serbian troops were not sent to Stalingrad to fight the Russians, Romania, Bulgarian, Albanian, Bosnian , Croatia and Bulgarian did.

The only holocaust that occured in Serbia was the Serbian civilians where in some cases 200 were shot for every German office that was killed by the resistance movement.

There is no direct evidence that Ljotic was connected with Nedic or for that matter the resistance movement led by Mihailovic Cetniks. Nedic and Mihailovic worked very closely together becuase they were both decorated Serbian officers.

Your references are noted, mine are from the ground , interviews which far outweigh an opinion of Milan Ristovic , a far better book is Patriot or Traitor written by David Martin on the Cetniks movement which are based on factual testimony by witnesses including the show trial run by Tito and Milos Minic.

Patriotism is to give one's life to defend it's citizens, something both Mihailovic and Nedic paid with their lives by the murderous Tito Communists.

They defended Serbia in the Balkan wars and dying to protect Serbian civilians under German Nazi occupation.

Naturally, we had our share of people who aligned themselves with the occupier and did their bidding...just like in Serbia.
(Ment, 9 July 2008 23:54)

Serbia proper troops, resistance and or otherwise never invaded another country, the same cannot be said for Albania proper or Kosovo Albanians, Bosnian Muslims , Croats and Bosnian Serbs.

Albania before WWII was an Italian colony, Italy put King Zog in Power and Benito Mussoloni of Italy ousted him from power As an Italian colony, the Italians needed to use Albanian soil to invade Greece but King Zog opposed, may other Albanian fascists did not. The Albanians army were eager to help Italy invade Greece.

If Albania was "invaded" why would the Italians promise Kamaria to Albania??????

The study of History would not make a good living for an Albanian nationalist with rose colored sun glasses.

Gerro Beuk,

I am not defending the Dutch people who joined the Nazis for by doing that they were no longer Dutch. For your information I knew that Dutch people were active at the Eastern front and I hope that all of them were either killed by the Soviets or that they died during their march to prison camps in Siberia. I can defend my country if I choose to do that and some dude like yourself is not going to stop me. I never claimed that The Netherlands is a perfect country with a perfect history. At least me and my family have no blood on our hands and I cannot be responsible for other people's actions. However, I can condem them. I addition, I can express my personal opinion here. In the past some of my comments have been removed by B92 and so do not blaim me, but B92 if there is something you do not like. I am still curious what country you are from and so be so brave to reveal that (it may explain more). I do not see the problem with the comments of Marco (#3). These are facts and the fact that you are upset by them seems to indicate that you think that he is lying. In that case I have to conclude that you yourself are denying these crimes or you approve of them and you are afraid to tell us your real opinion. In posting #39 I wrote "The Dutch slave trade and the military operations in Indonesia were a disgrace and should never have happened." I would not call that defending my country. I cannot prove my last comment about the uncompromising Albanians. It is just an impression I get and there are many postings on this B92 site that seem to share my emperical observations. Maybe you should tell your Albanian friends that post their biassed comments here to also stop sharing their stereo-typical anti-Serb comments. I am indeed a pro-Serb and I will not deny that I am not very keen on Muslims (but I do not hate them). However, that does not mean that I will go to foreign countries and kill them, or that I will terrorize Muslims who live in The Netherlands, or that I will treat them with disrespect.

With Germany supporting "Democracy" in the still Serbian province of Kosovo and Metohija, how long will it be before that democratic spirit permits 6 million Turks in Germany to secede?
Forget it Germany, in 2 generations you will become part of Greater Islamic Republic of Turkey then you can preach democracy to Serbs.
The tide will turn in all these western nations including Britain and France with large Muslim numbers when they start to assert democratic ideals of secession and new nationhood ...

RE: #55 “The holoacaust would have spread into Serbia proper.”
(konstantin gregovic, 9 July 2008 19:13)

The Holocaust DID spread to Serbia proper. The Nazis proclaimed Serbia to be “judenfrei” (i.e. ‘free of Jews’) years before the end of WW2, after all. And Nedić WAS a rightwing figure; you only need to read what Belgrade-based historian Milan Ristović has written on him for the necessary information. There’s nothing controversial about him; he was a Nazi puppet, plain and simple, and whatever he did, he certainly didn’t do it with the welfare of Serbia’s Jewish population in mind.
The units composed of members of Dimitrije Ljotić’s clerical fascist “Zbor” movement were closely involved with Nedić’s Qusiling administration, too. (For more information on how the Ljotić mob helped the Nazis just go to the local history museum in Smederevo...)
The same applies to Kosta Pećanac’s official chetniks, who had already terrorised the Muslim population in Serbia’s Sandžak region in the inter-war period.
Finally, Draža Mihailović’s chetniks fought against the Partisans, which played right into the Nazis’ hands, seeing as the Partisans were the one and only truly efficient resistance movement in fascist-occupied Yugoslavia.
If you want to give Serbian “patriotism” an even worse name by praising people like these as “Serbian patriots”, just go ahead…

This is is a way for Germany to thank the albanians for their help during WWII.

Serbia helped the allies, but the allies have forgotten all about it. Only the axis powers remembers their accomplices.

These posts are very embarrassing.

5. kufr - Why do you insist on believing the propaganda you preach? Albania was on the side of the ALLIES during both World Wars. Albania was conquered by the Germans (like Serbia was), but unlike Serbia, when the Germans asked for a list of the country's Jews, the Albanians refused to comply. Albania is respected in Israel as the only country to have saved 100% of the Jews within its borders from the Holocaust.

Albania was in civil war and wanted to get rid of the occupying forces, be they Germans or Italians or Serbs. There was an Albanian division that supported the Germans in fighting the Serbs to free Kosova from Yugoslavia, but that was their strict goal: liberation. They didn't subscribe to the genocidal policies of Hitler.

On to the relevance of the article: it's unfair to Germans today to stick the Holocaust in their faces and claim that they have no say in Balkan affairs. These Germans did not cause the Holocaust, and you cannot blame them for the mistakes of their ancestors. Instead, blame yourselves for the atrocities you committed most recently during the Yugoslav wars in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosova. That is actually YOUR generation which can be blamed.

Whether you like it or not, Germany is a key player in Europe. It has power, influence, and a substantial economy. As a central member of Europe and the European Union, German input is essential and necessary. Today we have a democratic Germany that believes in the values of freedom, equality, and self-determination, as well as the respect for valid international law. Germany's main concern is stability for Europe, and that means stability in the Balkans. Germany is doing the right thing by endorsing the only realistic and acceptable solution for Kosova: independence as a sovereign European nation.

I appreciate Germany's friendship and support, and I applaud their dedication to stability in the Balkans. Thank you, Germany!

Given all the atrocities committed by the German forces on Yugoslavian soil during World War II, the Germans should not intervene in Balkan matters till at least 2045 (hundred years after the end of WW II)...

ThankYou Germany for your continued support. Together we can appropriately handle uncompromising Serbs. My understanding is you guys are experience in these matters.Peace , democracy and long live our friendship.

Not a surprised at all. Germany is one of the major international law violators

Since Germany obviously lost quite a bit of Euro in that black hole, the question is obvious:

who is that Günter "Loser"?

Otherwise anyone is welcome to visit any German traveler forum where experienced travelers express their opinion. It looks, like there is overwhelming support of Serbia, not some illegal institutions and American neo-cons.

Beeing German I'm constantly ashamed about the foreign politics of this country in the Balkans!
Shame on you Germany!!!

Marco, Amsterdam

What about the Serb forces, which (not who) committed attrocities in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Kosova? According to your theory, they should not be heard alive until 2100. I agree with you on this.

Danke Deutschland!!!

It is such a pleasure to see the genuine support of the AUTHENTIC DEMOCRACIES for Kosova.

I am very confident that in very near future Kosova will become a real democracy and remove the dark cloads coming from Moscow and Belgrade.

Walk free and proud Kosova!

Your freedom will never be questioned again.

P.S. it makes me laugh when I read the posts like (Marco, Amsterdam, 8 July 2008 12:25) a Serb preaching democracy to the greatest democracy of Europe with unprecedented economic solidarity for decades with the European Continent and the world- Germany.

Marco, Amsterdam wrote: "the Germans should not intervene in Balkan matters till..."
This is not the Balkan matter. This is the Albanian matter.

kufr wrote: "Serbia helped the allies, but the allies Have forgotten all about it."
.There were two sides among allies: Westerners, and Easterners. You choose the second, naturally you belong there-eastern civilization. Don't be ingratitude toward Russians. They are helping you a lot.

answer to most of the comments:
though I am not a German and my family has suffered a lot during WWII, one thing for sure: several times German governments have openly apoligized for their war-crimes and atrocities, but we are still waiting for an analog act of a Serbian government, as soon they are aware of their main-part in the troubles on the Balkans during the nineties. However I doubt that they will ever come so far to admit their guilt, certainly not with SPS-politicians in a government.

Germany paid dearly for the atrocities committed in WWII.

Appologised, paid reparations to the victims (or countries) and was occupied for several decades before was it revived and became a key European power once again.

Germany now needs to help the Balkans and lecture on the peoples of this region on WHAT SHOULD NOT be repeated.

@kufr:
"This is is a way for Germany to thank the albanians for their help during WWII."
- Sure, nothing else. By that logic you can at least hope the Germans will lobby for handing over northern Kosovo to Serbia as a way of thanking the Serbs for the support given by the likes of Nedic, Ljotic, Pecanac.

"Serbia helped the allies, but the allies have forgotten all about it. Only the axis powers remembers their accomplices."
- France and Britain tried to help their traditional accomplices early on in the 1990s but funnily enough even they had to draw the line somwhere amid all the aggressions and ethnic cleansing committed by the Serb side, so...

Danke Deutschhland from the botom of my heart!

Beeing German I'm constantly ashamed about the foreign politics of this country in the Balkans!
Shame on you Germany!!!
(Joachim, 8 July 2008 13:02)

Congratulation to you “Joachim” on your comment! Just few corrections, since you are a “German” you should be ashamed about the foreign politics of “your” country in the Balkans and not “this” country. You should not end the sentence with Shame on you Germany because “you” means individual or group where you don’t belong, each is evident you don’t, so it sound that your are not what you pretend to be.

Be careful about this. They have reasons to help create a stronger Kosovo as it will become a dumping ground for all the for all the Muslims which Germany wants to deport.

'We hope that the formation of the new Serbian government will bring a positive u-turn for these two countries to cooperate in future,” said the diplomat.
In other words, 'we are glad that Tadic and company are in power, so they can give us Kosovo on a silver platter'.

Nothing ever changes, does it? Germans tried to destroy Serbia in WWI, WWII, and are still trying to destroy Serbia today. Serbs need to wake up to this reality, and show them that we are not giving an inch of Kosovo. Not one inch!
Cheers!

"Thank you Germany for your continued support. Together we can appropriately handle uncompromising Serbs. My understanding is you guys are experienced in these matters. Peace, democracy and long live our friendship.
(Azir, 8 July 2008 13:42)"

Azir,

Please read your own words once again (I corrected some spelling mistakes if you do not mind). Not only do you glorify attrocities committed by Nazi Germany against Serbs and many others around the world, but you also believe that Germans care for Albanians. Just because you people were happy to do some dirty work for the Nazis does not mean that they considered you "Arian" or no "Untermenschen". In addition, Albanians are orders of magnitude more uncompromising (or less compromising) than Serbs and secondly you guys cannot accomplish anything without outside help.

Jevic, 8 July 2008 11:15
Marco, Amsterdam, 8 July 2008 12:25
kufr, 8 July 2008 13:10
veki, 8 July 2008 15:13
Dragan, 8 July 2008 15:47
Jan (Amsterdam), 8 July 2008 17:31

It is obvious that opinions like yours will never help to establish the Utopia of a peaceful Europe. It is obvious that every single European nation, whether recognised as a state or not at the time being, committed some kind of attrocity agains another nation in the past centuries.

Marco, Jan - never forget the leading role of Dutch slave traders and the so-called "politionele acties" against Indonesian liberation acrtivists in the late 1940s. When criticising Germans for their 1933-1945 behaviour, please keep in mind that among all occupied countriesw in WW II, the Netherlands was the one with the largest percentage of collaborants. Did anyone oppose to Westerbork?

Kufr, bear in mind the Usti nad Labem massacre and the Dead Marsh of Brno, in which thousands of German civilists, among which German anti-fascist activists who spent WW II in concentration camps) were killed for being German (easy job as they were easy to be recognised by their white bondage with the letter "N" for "Nemec" - the Czech equivalent of the Berman Judensterne).

Jevic, Veki, Dragan - never forget Srebrenica, Vukovar, Račak, etc..

Off course - Albanians had their part of crimes committed against their neighbours. That's not my point.

My point is to stress the fact that in establishing a free and peaceful Europe, there is no point in looking back. We should learn from our past, but not avenge it.

Therefor, don't point at your brother abroad and accuse him of the crimes committed by his ancestors, because he can do the same to you.

GORDO
Be careful about this. They have reasons to help create a stronger Kosovo as it will become a dumping ground for all the for all the Muslims which Germany wants to deport.
(Gordo, 8 July 2008 15:40)

Wow! that's creative...is that all you got? this portreayal of Albanians to muslim jihdists its getting old and pathetic...if you want to be insulting, come up with something better, buddy. because nobody believes you nor your serb friends
cheers
spunky

"Germany will help Kosovo"

yeah, sure two disgusting accomplices from WW two helping each other.

Too bad Germans, we had kicked you out twice and we'll do it again. You can bet on that.

azir wrote:

"Together we can appropriately handle uncompromising Serbs. My understanding is you guys are experience in these matters."

Azir. . .the only experience the Germans have in Serbia is eventually getting kicked back to Deutscheland!

kufr: "Serbia helped the allies, but the allies have forgotten all about it. Only the axis powers remembers their accomplices."

The world thak God is no longer divided on Axies and Alies! This division is as obsolete as the one of the Peloponesian war? Does it still matter who supported Athens and who supported Sparta?

Come to the 21th century!

@kufr

You wrote: This is a way for Germany to thank the Albanians for their help during WWII.

I HOPE that b92 will NOT censure my comments.

Serbs who post comments here are more upset with few Croats or Albanians cooperating with the Germans in WWII then they are with Germans themselves.

WWII-Several people from almost all nations in Balkans and Europe somehow somewhere cooperated with Germans.
However I will not say that all Albanians cooperated with the Nazis because of few.

Why I want say that?
My Grandfather was captured from Nazis in Gjirokastra south of Albania.
His house was burned to the ground.
He was transported into a Nazi camp in KOSOVO and killed with 109 Albanians-my father was only 3 years old and I never had the chance to meet my Grandfather.

If you are SERBIAN Serbians were linked with Nazis. I will not say that Serbs cooperated with Nazis because of few either.

Respect
Alb_MCSE

Ataman,

Don't worry about Germany's finances. It is a very rich country. Maybe they gave Kosovo so far few hundred millions. That is a drop in the bucket compared to the hundreds of billions of dollars they paid for all kind of reparations all over the world. If I am correct Serbia also got a pretty large amount.

Reading the comments of the Serbian camp one get the impression that they are pretty upset. Upset whenever there is an announcement of aid to the newest independent country of the world, Kosovo. They would prefer to see perpetual poverty and economic strangulation. Well the democratic Western countries know this fact very well and will make sure that those people get disappointed for a long time to come.
The Russians also wanted to strangulate West-Berlin. Well as we know evil did not triumph.

to our dear "hungarian" friend Joe:

honey, I don´t know whether you didn´t read my comment, but as far as I am concerned, german money and investments are very welcomed in our province! they will help to build "scyscrapers" and to realize infrastructural projects, they will say how and you will obey.
I think that´s good, and then, when the time has come, Serbia will take over.

I am not upset at all! you´d love to read the opposite, but ..my dear alb... oh sorry, hungarian friend, I am afraid, it´s someone else who seems to be upset!

just take a look on this newly founded group of "lobbyists" :)

since they wait for the "wave", perhaps the first lesson for them should be to watch the first few seasons of "Bay Watch" :) don´t you agree?

From Spunky: Wow! that's creative...is that all you got? this portreayal of Albanians to muslim jihdists its getting old and pathetic...if you want to be insulting, come up with something better, buddy. because nobody believes you nor your serb friends.

Where in my post did I refer to Albanians as jihdists or insult Muslims? It's a simple fact that Germany does have a large Muslim population and if you read the German news, their government is working on ways of deporting them. Finding a place to put them is a priority. Relocating migrant populations is nothing new.

"Nevertheless I disagree with the foreign politics of "this" country that I left in 1983."

And your new country is? Cuba, Venezuela, Belarus, North Korea...?

Germany, as it has always, has chosen the wrong horse. they have lost already two times siding with albanian extremists, and ...they seem to be condemned to repeat their severe mistakes...

as far as I am concerned, the Germans are free to finance and build up some infra-structure ( since the Albanians have proven their inability to do so, even with serbina financing ) until Serbia takes over again. that´s the least they can do, after what they have done to Serbia in two world-wars.

so, go on Germany, make some investments in the southern province, you owe it to Serbia!

Quelle surprise!!
We all know what happened in 1941.

I know there were quislings i Serbia. But Nedic is regarded as a traitor and he was executed as one too. The large majority of Serbs were anti-fascists and they continue to be anti-fascists up to this day. Now when Germany again show fascist behavior by supporting Kosovo independence they will need to be taught a lesson. International law should not be circumvented. It is very dangerous and, as Putin said, like a stick with two ends with the other end hitting you in the face.

@Joe:

Certain parts of Germany are indeed among the best-off places in the world. Certain parts are still on-par with Hungary or even worse. After 15 years there is still a great deal of imbalance and finger-pointing between the "East" and "West". Many "Ossis" do think, "Wessis" are are arrogant and "know everything better", many "Wessis" would associate 1/3rd of their own country with Russia.

So the country is not without issues and it needs a huge truckload of Euros to improve some things. My bet is, the eastern part with double-digit jobless rate does not care about Kosovo problems.

Did you note, the German cancelor is from the East, with family suffered from the communist past? It's little wonder, she is 200% supporting America at every occasion - and that can be seen on Kosovo politics.

@Mark, the Shqype: Undisputed fact: SS Skanderbeu was involved in killing all 100% Jews of Kosovo.

@Alb_MCSE: respect to your grandfather, may he rest in peace. He chose the right but difficult path and became a martyr. Yes, indeed, even some Russian nationalists helped Hitler in the hope, this is the proper way to get rid of Stalin.

It doesn't surprise me Germany -you also helped them in WWII...

@Franc
If it pleases you or not, I'm German, born in Germany, from German parents and grandparents, bearer of a German passport!
Nevertheless I disagree with the foreign politics of "this" country that I left in 1983. And beleive me that I have no intention ever to return to Germany except for visiting my family.
SHAME ON YOU GERMANY !!!

@Konstantin Gregoric

I always find it funny when Serb posters here claim to know Albania's history better than Albanians.

Just for your information, Italy DID invade Albania (a country of just over 1 million people at the time) in the spring of 1939. Under equipped Albanian soldiers and private citizens fought the Italians in Durres and other regions but were easily overrun. While certain segments of Albanian society did accept the occupiers (land owners, etc), others kept on fighting back.

Organized guerrilla resistance began in 1941 largely by the communists and if your math is any better than your knowledge of your neighbor's history...you'll realize that that's a good 4 years before the war's end.

Approximately 28,000 Albanians died in WWII...that's about 1 in 40 people or 1 person for every square kilometer of the country. Here's a hint...they were most definitely not killed by the English or the Russians or the Americans. I hope you can figure out the rest.

-----------------------------

In any case, the past is the past. The generation that lived through and/or fought in WWII is pretty much gone to meet the Maker.

So let me ask you o great historian...what does YOUR generation have to brag about?

Jovan,

Maybe you have some close personel friends and mutually you call each other "honey" but please take a big note: I have nothing common with that category of people.

Congratulation to you “Joachim” on your comment! Just few corrections, since you are a “German” you should be ashamed about the foreign politics of “your” country in the Balkans and not “this” country. You should not end the sentence with Shame on you Germany because “you” means individual or group where you don’t belong, each is evident you don’t, so it sound that your are not what you pretend to be.
(Franc, 8 July 2008 14:44)

well, i was not this guy "Joachim", but, this guy IS for sure german. If you could speak, read and write german, you would know that a german would write this comment exactly the way Joachim did. I'm living in Germany, and i can tell you that's it's this way.

on the other hand, i can only back what is written by some other guy in here. if you ask germans on the street what they think about the "independence" of kosovo, you will find a huge majority that doesn't agree at all with the foreign policy of mr schröder and mrs merkel. no one understands this, but EVERYONE understands that we here will have to pay for the kosovo-ex-terrorists with our taxes. unfortunately the kosovo-case is not big enough to decide elections over here, otherwise the government would have never commited such a foreing policy suicide.

@konstantin gregovic

Again, your reading of history is amusing..and again...Albania had been invaded for over 2 years by the Italians when these so called "declarations of war on the Allies" happened. In fact, Albania was part of the "Kingdom of Italy."

Now of course, when the "king", Victor Emanuele, showed his face in the newly conquered country....he was shot right in the middle of Tirana.

Naturally, we had our share of people who aligned themselves with the occupier and did their bidding...just like in Serbia.

Jan: "The wars in Yugoslavia were all civil wars "

The wars in former Yugoslavia were NOT civil wars. They were parexcellence international wars!
What is a civil war?
It is a conflict between TWO camps within ONE nation. Everybody is faced with the grim choice to choose a side. Often brothers and sisters, parents and children choose different sides. Clasical examples of Civil wars were the Russian and the Spanish civil wars. Parhaps in Yugoslavia there was a civil war during WWII. If you are a Serb, you could join the chetniks, or the partisans, If you are a Croat, you could join the ustashas, or the partisans...

What is an international war?
When one nation attack another.

If your nation is the aggressor, your choice is to be belligerent or pacifist. If your nation is attacked, your choice is to resist or to capitulate.

With a great streach of imagination one could call the war in Slovenia a "civil" war, since there was a slim chance Yugoslavia to be preserved if JNA won.
After August 1991 there was no Yugoslavia. What followed were wars between its constituent nations!

RE: #55 “The holoacaust would have spread into Serbia proper.”
(konstantin gregovic, 9 July 2008 19:13)

The Holocaust DID spread to Serbia proper. The Nazis proclaimed Serbia to be “judenfrei” (i.e. ‘free of Jews’) years before the end of WW2, after all. And Nedić WAS a rightwing figure; you only need to read what Belgrade-based historian Milan Ristović has written on him for the necessary information. There’s nothing controversial about him; he was a Nazi puppet, plain and simple, and whatever he did, he certainly didn’t do it with the welfare of Serbia’s Jewish population in mind.
The units composed of members of Dimitrije Ljotić’s clerical fascist “Zbor” movement were closely involved with Nedić’s Qusiling administration, too. (For more information on how the Ljotić mob helped the Nazis just go to the local history museum in Smederevo...)
The same applies to Kosta Pećanac’s official chetniks, who had already terrorised the Muslim population in Serbia’s Sandžak region in the inter-war period.
Finally, Draža Mihailović’s chetniks fought against the Partisans, which played right into the Nazis’ hands, seeing as the Partisans were the one and only truly efficient resistance movement in fascist-occupied Yugoslavia.
If you want to give Serbian “patriotism” an even worse name by praising people like these as “Serbian patriots”, just go ahead…
(Al, 10 July 2008 19:04)

The Holocaust in Croatia saw over 750,000 Serbs, Jews, Romas, Jews and Gypsies murdered by the Croatian Extremist Pavelic government.

To imply that the quisling Nedic puppet government was Nazi in anyway is ludicrious:

They did not declare war on the allies, Hungary, Romania, Albania and Bulgaria did.

Serbian troops were not sent to Stalingrad to fight the Russians, Romania, Bulgarian, Albanian, Bosnian , Croatia and Bulgarian did.

The only holocaust that occured in Serbia was the Serbian civilians where in some cases 200 were shot for every German office that was killed by the resistance movement.

There is no direct evidence that Ljotic was connected with Nedic or for that matter the resistance movement led by Mihailovic Cetniks. Nedic and Mihailovic worked very closely together becuase they were both decorated Serbian officers.

Your references are noted, mine are from the ground , interviews which far outweigh an opinion of Milan Ristovic , a far better book is Patriot or Traitor written by David Martin on the Cetniks movement which are based on factual testimony by witnesses including the show trial run by Tito and Milos Minic.

Patriotism is to give one's life to defend it's citizens, something both Mihailovic and Nedic paid with their lives by the murderous Tito Communists.

They defended Serbia in the Balkan wars and dying to protect Serbian civilians under German Nazi occupation.

Naturally, we had our share of people who aligned themselves with the occupier and did their bidding...just like in Serbia.
(Ment, 9 July 2008 23:54)

Serbia proper troops, resistance and or otherwise never invaded another country, the same cannot be said for Albania proper or Kosovo Albanians, Bosnian Muslims , Croats and Bosnian Serbs.

Albania before WWII was an Italian colony, Italy put King Zog in Power and Benito Mussoloni of Italy ousted him from power As an Italian colony, the Italians needed to use Albanian soil to invade Greece but King Zog opposed, may other Albanian fascists did not. The Albanians army were eager to help Italy invade Greece.

If Albania was "invaded" why would the Italians promise Kamaria to Albania??????

The study of History would not make a good living for an Albanian nationalist with rose colored sun glasses.

It's obvious that countries that have recognized kosovo will help also his development..regarding Eu integration the German diplomat seems too optimistic...

All of this sounds great for one of those 30 second news clips on the BBC. Germany shows it's a proponent of peace, love, and tolerance, Gunter and Fatmir make kissy face on TV, and the illusion that Kosovo is the world's newest democracy is once again mentioned. One might even believe it were one just a passing observant.

Now tackle the rampant poverty, corruption that makes Montenegro look like Slovenia, 18th century prejudice, and yes that Serb Assembly that everyone says they're against but can do nothing to stop, and you might have some more substance to your speech next time around.

Good Luck Pristina. You need it more than you know.

Good Luck Mitrovica. You're on your way to becoming Kosovo's RS.

P.S. it makes me laugh when I read the posts like (Marco, Amsterdam, 8 July 2008 12:25) a Serb preaching democracy to the greatest democracy of Europe with unprecedented economic solidarity for decades with the European Continent and the world- Germany.
(ben, 8 July 2008 13:45)

Ben, I have never been to Serbia (I have visited Croatia though). Germany = the greatest democracy of Europe? Read the book "Ganz unten" by Günther Wallraff on how Turkish "gastarbeiter" are treated in your precious Germany. You will not laugh anymore! The only reason Germany is spending money on underdeveloped countries is to shake off their Nazi past.

PS. My great grandfather's house in Rotterdam was damaged by German bombs in 1940. According to my grandfather our family never received any compensation from the Germans...

These posts are very embarrassing.

5. kufr - Why do you insist on believing the propaganda you preach? Albania was on the side of the ALLIES during both World Wars. Albania was conquered by the Germans (like Serbia was), but unlike Serbia, when the Germans asked for a list of the country's Jews, the Albanians refused to comply. Albania is respected in Israel as the only country to have saved 100% of the Jews within its borders from the Holocaust.


Your post speaks for itself, Albania was never invaded and on the side of the "allies" Italy and Albania and Greece, there were some ethnic Albanians who escaped into Greece including King Zog. But to imply that the Albanians were on the Allies side during WWII is pure fallacy and propoganda that continues to be preached by ill informed posters like yourself. Do you realize that Albania declared war on the US and allied? Albania did not offer any resistance to the Italians and Nazi's until the end of the war when all was lost. The Kosoov Albanians were firmly on the side of the Nazi's including the Skendenberg(sp) Nazi division.

"Marco, Jan - never forget the leading role of Dutch slave traders and the so-called "politionele acties" against Indonesian liberation activists in the late 1940s. When criticising Germans for their 1933-1945 behaviour, please keep in mind that among all occupied countries in WW II, the Netherlands was the one with the largest percentage of collaborants. Did anyone oppose to Westerbork?"

Gerro Beuk,

You reply contained some useful points. I am not sure what country you are from, but you do not have to teach me my country's history (although you may be Dutch yourself because of your name and the detailed knowledge). The Dutch slave trade and the military operations in Indonesia were a disgrace and should never have happened. I am not sure if the Dutch government ever apologized for that (even though it may be symbolic for things cannot be undone), but I assume so even though some people may have opposed that. Your claim about the highest percentage of people helping the Germans is a claim you should not make so openly unless you provide various reliable references and links. At least I know my family was clean. With respect to transportation camp Westerbork it is most likely that the existing Dutch resistance was too weak to liberate people from there. You may want to check the following link to educate yourself a little bit more on the history of Westerbork.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westerbork

As you can read it was initially established to house Jews and others who had fled Germany and Nazi occupied countries. After WWII The Netherlands took care of most people who had openly helped the Germans, although numerous escaped to Germany where they were protected by German law (many got the German citizenship and the German law prohibited to extradite people to other countries). Especially the older generation still do not like the Germans, but younger generations do not care and most Germans I know are descent people. The wars in Yugoslavia were all civil wars and I just do not buy it that the Serbs were much worse than the Croats, Bosnians, and Albanians. Because of foreign interference things got much worse than they could have been.

"They would prefer to see perpetual poverty and economic strangulation."

Joe, this may be one of the few times I agree with you.

Once you've recovered from the shock, feel free to read the rest.

It's in no one's interest to leave Kosovo, the EU's most recent acquisition, in perpetual poverty, and I can't see the logic, nor the rationality, of actually doing anything to prolong this. Poverty perpetuates poor standards of living. Poor standards of living only prolongs political and economic corruption, peasant-like mentality, and struggles of survival. History has shown that Kosovo has not, and cannot, be managed alone by either Serbs or Albanians. Both have run it into the ground. Therefore, international aid is the first thing that's needed.

But herein lies the problem. International aid to what amounts to the 4th most corrupt economy in the world as ranked by Berlin-based Transparency International (next to Cameroon, Cambodia, and Albania) does not bode well for seeing that aid money reach its intended target.

International management is also needed.

The issue many should be looking at is where this aid that's been promised is going, and more importantly WHO its going to. No sense in calling Kosovo anything resembling a functioning entity if people like Thaci, Sejdiu and others are living well and the vast majority of the population still live on less than a dollar a day with over 25% still without modern plumbing. With all the money pumped into Kosovo since FADURK, it should be one of the richest and most developed places in the Balkans.

As far as Albanians are concerned, we did the same thing done countless times before. The moment we felt somebody was treading on our toes we said stop... we can't have this... we did the same thing against the Germans together with the Serbs and All other "Yugoslavs" back in the old days where "bratsvo jedinstvo" was the slogan of the day. You can't blame us for it, yes it's true you don't like the NEW reality but lets not forget we are neighbours... show some neighbourly respect and stop sabotaging everything Europe and the West stands for because you're sabotaging your own future and your children’s future.

Roberto:

I hope you can find some useful info on the below link.

Economist is considered generally as reliable source, for your easy, an extract:

"The Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial in Israel records 63 Albanians as “Righteous Among the Nations”, a title recognising those who risked their lives to save Jews. Romania has 53 such honourees, from a population six times Albania's. Russia has 124". (source The Economist 15 June 2007)

It would be nice to ask our Serb firnds how many Serbs are remembered in Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial- since they were the "anti-fascits" and according to our friends posting here in b92 we were alley with Hitler.

Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial is THERE TO REMIND TEH TRUTH FOR EVERYONE, who and what have done - DEAR SERBS. Apparently YOUR name there is not very present- this is the FACT.

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9321421

from Ben...
Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial is THERE TO REMIND TEH TRUTH FOR EVERYONE, who and what have done - DEAR SERBS. Apparently YOUR name there is not very present- this is the FACT.
________
Sorry Ben, you lose. 125 Serbian were presented with the honor of: “Righteous Among the Nations” last year. Pull your head out of the sand and read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_Among_the_Nations_by_country

or see the latest fromThe new Holocaust History Museum at Yad Vashem showing Boris Tadic accepting for Serbians last year. http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous_new/news.pdf

Mike,

I've noticed gross distortions in many of your posts regarding Kosova and Albania, but kept silent because they seemed too ridiculous to address. However, I've decided to challenge your comments in post #42 above. In particular, can you backup your statement that "the vast majority of the population still live on less than a dollar a day." Have you ever been to Kosova or Albania, I suspect not based on this comment. This is not to say that I agree with the rest of your comments, but I decided to focus only on the most blatant one of many in the interest of time and space.

I curiously await your response.

@Konstantin Gregoric

I always find it funny when Serb posters here claim to know Albania's history better than Albanians.
(Ment, 8 July 2008 23:56)

Albania declared war on the US and its allies, Serbia never did. Sorry if you can't face facts and your history.

Albanian soldiers along with Italian infantry trie to invade Greece in 1939 and were promptly defeated until Germany stepped in. The Greeks will provide you with more than enough historical data, in fact, so will most Balkan historical archives.


Croatian soldiers were found dead lying in the streets of Stalingrad in Russia.

to our dear "hungarian" friend Joe:

you simply don´t get it, right?

your comments are so absolutely off the way that many here can only laugh about ´em.
honey, I would never adress you as a friend in reality, don´t fool yourself, amigo. :)

your comments perfectly display your intolerant attitude in regard to the events in the southern serbian province. our province, honey.

as for this list of righteous poeple, ben, where are the Albanians in that list?

I know there were quislings i Serbia. But Nedic is regarded as a traitor and he was executed as one too. The large majority of Serbs were anti-fascists and they continue to be anti-fascists up to this day. Now when Germany again show fascist behavior by supporting Kosovo independence they will need to be taught a lesson. International law should not be circumvented. It is very dangerous and, as Putin said, like a stick with two ends with the other end hitting you in the face.
(kufr, 8 July 2008 18:58)

RE: Nedic was a Serbian patriot

Before defaming a person you know nothing about, try learning about the man. A highly decoreated Serbian officer during the Balkan wars and WWI. He stepped in unwillingly to fill the role of Serbian PM as the Nazi's continued to kill Serbian civilians at an alarming rate as both the Cetnik and Partisian movements started killing German Officers.

He was flung off a 12th floor building by the Communist Partisans in 1945, Rankovic in fact without trial or recourse.

Nedic is a controversial figure, but without him , Serbia would have been erased from the map because the Nazi's would have allowed the Croatian Nazi Leader Pavelic Ustasha to take over responsible for the mass killings Serbian, Jewish, and Roma's along with other ethnic groups who opposed the Croatian Nazi state.

The holoacaust would have spread into Serbia proper.

"Marco, Jan - When criticising Germans for their 1933-1945 behaviour, please keep in mind that among all occupied countries in WW II, the Netherlands was the one with the largest percentage of collaborants. Did anyone oppose to Westerbork?"

I already gave my comments yesterday. I am happy with the link of Gordo (#51).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_Among_the_Nations_by_country

I was not aware of this and I am not trying to use numbers to prove something right (or wrong). The fact that 4767 persons from The Netherlands are honored and listed shows that Gerro Beuk's comments had very little validity. I do not see Albania on this list. B92 should make it mandatory to provide reference sources for any claim made here and if not these claims should be removed. What is also disturbing is that many immigrants from Turkey and second generation Turks in The Netherlands are still denying the Armenian genocide by the Ottoman Empire during WWI. This is state policy in Turkey and such a country cannot become an EU member. In that sense I have respect for the Germans.

RE:
from Ben...
Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial is THERE TO REMIND TEH TRUTH FOR EVERYONE, who and what have done - DEAR SERBS. Apparently YOUR name there is not very present- this is the FACT.


Truth and facts distorted by misinformed Albanian extremists:

On October 30, 2007, a ceremony was held in the “Sukkat Shalom” Synagogue in Belgrade, Serbia, bestowing upon six individuals the title of Righteous Among the Nations for their efforts in saving Jews during the Holocaust. Those honored at the ceremony were Dr. Dusan Jovanovic, Andrija Latal, Petar Zankovic, Klara Baic, and Slobodan and Milenija Knezevic. Dr. Dusan Jovanovic received the medal and certificate of honor, while those of the other five posthumously honored individuals were accepted by their relatives. The President of Serbia, Mr. Boris Tadić, attended the ceremony as a guest of honor. Also present were Israel’s Ambassador to Serbia, H.E. Mr. Arthur Koll, Honorary President of the Union of Jewish Communities in Serbia, Mr. Aca Zinger, the extended families of the rescuers, Christian, Muslim and Jewish clergymen, the diplomatic corps and members of the Jewish community.
During the ceremony in Belgrade’s only functioning synagogue, “Sukkat Shalom,” the President of Serbia, Mr. Boris Tadić, addressed the gathering. After reflecting upon contributions made by Serbians during the Holocaust to help Jews, Mr. Tadić observed, “It is regrettable that even today in Europe, and elsewhere in the world, there are those who deny the existence of the concentration camps, the gas chambers and the Holocaust”.

H.E. Mr. Arthur Koll, Israel’s Ambassador to Serbia, said, “Sadly, 62 years after the victory over the Nazis and their collaborators, xenophobia, racism and antisemitism still exist. Such hatred is still amongst us, it is spreading and nowadays is the greatest danger for peace and stability in many regions, and for the world in general.” However, he continued, “This evening we are gathered here, in the only still active Jewish synagogue left in Belgrade, to learn from the past, to call for action in the face of bigotry and hatred in the present and above all, to pay tribute to the individuals whose acts showed then, and show us today, the right path to a better future. Andrija Latal, Petar Zankovic, Klara Baic, Slobodan and Milenija Knezevic and Dusan Jovanovic are the torch leading the camp, the moral compass, who in the dark days of World War II lit the light of human dignity, of humanity.”

The Rescue Stories

Dr. Dusan Jovanovic saved the lives of twenty Jews by hiding them in the municipal hospital in Novi-Sad which he ran.
Mr. Andrija Latal saved Laura, Lisa, and Rochele Elias by hiding them in his home in Sarajevo for two years.
Mr. Petar Zankovic helped smuggle and hide the Zaltkovich family during the years 1942-1943. In reprisal for these actions, the Nazis punished both him and his family.
Ms. Klara Baic concealed the children of the Danberg family in her home. Providing them with shelter in her home in June 1944, they remained there until the liberation of her town of Sobotiza in October 1944.
Mr. and Mrs. Slobodan and Milenija Knezevic took into their home Julia Irenfeld, who fled the Nazis in March 1943 when she was in her ninth month of pregnancy. Her son, Ilan Doron, born in hiding, lives today in Haifa and has three children.

Michael Thomas:

My comments relating to Kosovo's citizens living on less than a dollar (actually it was written "euro") a day, etc. came from a 2005 World Bank report entitled "Kosovo Poverty Assessment: Promoting Opportunity, Security, and Participation for All". Yes, it's three years old, and after rereading the article again, I've noticed that "37% live below" the euro a day level. So I retract the "vast majority" part. Still, unless drastic economic changes have been made since then, I fear it's still safe to say there remains a considerable group of people who continue to live in sub-standard conditions, and 37% of 2 million is almost 750,000.

You can download the entire report here:
http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/main?menuPK=64187510&pagePK=64193027&piPK=64187937&theSitePK=523679&entityID=000012009_20050713091826

My statements regarding Kosovo being the fourth most corrupt economy in the world come from Transparency International. You can find the information in their 2007 Global Corruption Barometer here
http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/gcb/2007

These statistics are not my own, nor do they come from any Serbian agenda-setting organization.

Germany will help Kosovo

Thank you very much Germany
we love you

(Jan (Amsterdam), 9 July 2008 19:25)

this shows how reliable is wikipedia as source.

Although it cannot be denied the merits of Serbs.

read my post above #49.

Albania is the ONLY European country where 100% of teh Jews survived.

RE: #55 “The holoacaust would have spread into Serbia proper.”
(konstantin gregovic, 9 July 2008 19:13)

The Holocaust DID spread to Serbia proper. The Nazis proclaimed Serbia to be “judenfrei” (i.e. ‘free of Jews’) years before the end of WW2, after all. And Nedić WAS a rightwing figure; you only need to read what Belgrade-based historian Milan Ristović has written on him for the necessary information. There’s nothing controversial about him; he was a Nazi puppet, plain and simple, and whatever he did, he certainly didn’t do it with the welfare of Serbia’s Jewish population in mind.
The units composed of members of Dimitrije Ljotić’s clerical fascist “Zbor” movement were closely involved with Nedić’s Qusiling administration, too. (For more information on how the Ljotić mob helped the Nazis just go to the local history museum in Smederevo...)
The same applies to Kosta Pećanac’s official chetniks, who had already terrorised the Muslim population in Serbia’s Sandžak region in the inter-war period.
Finally, Draža Mihailović’s chetniks fought against the Partisans, which played right into the Nazis’ hands, seeing as the Partisans were the one and only truly efficient resistance movement in fascist-occupied Yugoslavia.
If you want to give Serbian “patriotism” an even worse name by praising people like these as “Serbian patriots”, just go ahead…

Ben (#61),

Check out this link: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/righteous1.html

Apparently, there are 63 "righteous" among the Albanians -- compared to 127 from Serbia and 4863 from the Netherlands (so much for # 35 Gerro Beuk!).

To Jan (#26, #39, #56), the proud Dutchman who is crying for a link to convince him that his countrymen did not oppose Germany WWII occupation too much:

Here you are:

http://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/hitler_s_foreign_legion__waffen_ss

Waffen SS volunteers per country discussed in the comments above:
* Albania : 3000 (1939 population 1073000, 0,28%)
* Serbia : 15000 (1941 population 3810000, 0,39%)
* the Netherlands : 50000 (1939 population 8729000, 0,59%)

I hope that this will do to make you stop defending your country and realise the point I tried to make - no nation nor state should feel itself morally better than others - because all of us have blood on our hands or those of our ancestors.

Therefor, comments like your friend Marco (#3) should be banned, rather than claims without links to sources.

Regarding the last, can you please prove your comment "Albanians are orders of magnitude more uncompromising (or less compromising) than Serbs" with a link, or otherwise remove it? Thanks.

No surprise with this position. The EU is just Germany and its satillites. EULEX is a wretched extension from longstanding EU policy. Germany's position is well known since they trained the KLA in the war ciriculum and tactics inside Albania proper (not illegal Albania).

I am amazed how much the germans hate the serbs!why?i am albanian,but the germans never have supported serbia.it is not like germans lost a lot of soldiers during ww2 in serbia,they all left for russia.
Although,the germans they don't care about albanians,serbs,turks,greeks,italians,their foreign policy follows USA,so they have to help Kosova money wise for now.
I lived briefly in germany in the 90's and if you were an ausslander you were an ausslander.
Different here in the USA though.Peace

Ilir,New London,Connecticut,USA

I find these ww2 postings so funny and interesting. where else can i find people as involved in the 2nd world war as i still am, but in the balkans? you'd think it was still 1945.

altho i do not like the lies and distortions i read on b-92 about ww2 (mainly from the nationalists) i am very touched by personal family memories. many of our families were decimated by the nazis (and their allies) -- in our case we lost an entire extended family (jews) in poland -- perhaps 100 people, including my would-be uncle. we can never forget such a thing, nor can i blame all germans (today) for the holocaust. but to all holocaust and genocide deniers, i just cannot bear to listen to the lies...

we are currently collecting all stories from the 2nd world war for a future work, and i ask Alb_MCSE, and anyone else, to send us your stories and memories.

thank you/chvala/felamenderat

robertoruss@yahoo.com

Gerro Beuk,

I am not defending the Dutch people who joined the Nazis for by doing that they were no longer Dutch. For your information I knew that Dutch people were active at the Eastern front and I hope that all of them were either killed by the Soviets or that they died during their march to prison camps in Siberia. I can defend my country if I choose to do that and some dude like yourself is not going to stop me. I never claimed that The Netherlands is a perfect country with a perfect history. At least me and my family have no blood on our hands and I cannot be responsible for other people's actions. However, I can condem them. I addition, I can express my personal opinion here. In the past some of my comments have been removed by B92 and so do not blaim me, but B92 if there is something you do not like. I am still curious what country you are from and so be so brave to reveal that (it may explain more). I do not see the problem with the comments of Marco (#3). These are facts and the fact that you are upset by them seems to indicate that you think that he is lying. In that case I have to conclude that you yourself are denying these crimes or you approve of them and you are afraid to tell us your real opinion. In posting #39 I wrote "The Dutch slave trade and the military operations in Indonesia were a disgrace and should never have happened." I would not call that defending my country. I cannot prove my last comment about the uncompromising Albanians. It is just an impression I get and there are many postings on this B92 site that seem to share my emperical observations. Maybe you should tell your Albanian friends that post their biassed comments here to also stop sharing their stereo-typical anti-Serb comments. I am indeed a pro-Serb and I will not deny that I am not very keen on Muslims (but I do not hate them). However, that does not mean that I will go to foreign countries and kill them, or that I will terrorize Muslims who live in The Netherlands, or that I will treat them with disrespect.

With Germany supporting "Democracy" in the still Serbian province of Kosovo and Metohija, how long will it be before that democratic spirit permits 6 million Turks in Germany to secede?
Forget it Germany, in 2 generations you will become part of Greater Islamic Republic of Turkey then you can preach democracy to Serbs.
The tide will turn in all these western nations including Britain and France with large Muslim numbers when they start to assert democratic ideals of secession and new nationhood ...