Parliament meets to debate law on govt.

Bganon,

I dont think anyone wants new elections amonsgt your favoured D yes to all that EU demands least of all the bosses running the coalition charade such as Solano and Co.!

But then if new elections were to occur I think you'll find some fragmentation of the SPS-PUPS-JS coalition which would make for a very different campaign and result.

The weakest bargaining position is that of D yeS and they know it just as you do so there will be much more concessions if this Frankenstein is to happen!

Well, Frankenstein has many pieces that all need to be forced together some way or another.

Dacic has more pull than the DS so if he wants to control that bolt through Frankenstein's neck, then so it will be.

He seems to be standing firm for now and selling out his party won't come cheap.

I think you are a bit optimistic with your view bganon, you think the DS/EU/US are going to allow repeat elections?

Bganon,

"Tell me do either of you think that SPS will pass the census if there were repeat elections? "

- now if I had such a magic ball do you think I would be commenting here. That said in reply to such a rhetorical question as you probably have answered it for yourself - it really depends on what is most important to SPS and how they were forced into such a position as DS are plaing upon them. Like I mentioned before SRS and DSS-NS would be wise to leave SPS coalition a great deal of options and to not fully close the door when talks paused to see what D yeS had to offer. Sure Markovic off Jagodina has shown his hand only too easily and its interesting that you have already written off the SPS in any future elections - guess you appreciated Zivkovic's view on taking away the SPS youth vote!

"Now remind me who is in the weak bargaining position and who is strong?"

Like I said it really depends upon your perspective and I am sure "advisors" like the ones for Markovic of Jagodina are placing a great deal of pressure on Tadic to accept any position taken by SPS. Especially given the ones most likely to abhor new elections would be those pulling the DS strings ( and rely on him to get their way http://xs4.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=06&dd=30&nav_id=51517 )and as witneseed quite blatantly by EUcratic circles not least the UK Ambassadors whose words in all reality are Worthless given the false promise of Serbia (minus kosovo) is nothing more then a false promise.

I hope you picked up on the coincidence over Tadic's choice to "Regently" select Cvetkovic as PM. http://xs4.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=51491 No one accepted the submissive nature of that Cvetkovic Goverenemnt and they wont be doing so now. I'll remind you we have much to thank the democratic nature of the Irish that have highlighted the "false promise" given and Serbians won't be coperate in any way what so ever in this "indecent proposal" deceit!

So lets see who needs the formation of this Govt more - I am sure the next week will be telling but beyond that whenever they do come be they 4 months or 4 years the next election will be a straight choice EU with Kosovo (SRS DSS-NS) or without (D yeS LDP). The SPS will have a decision to make and I think they will be not so quick to accept "advice" from so called "friends of Serbia" at that point.

bganon, if the SPS continues on its current path then you are quite right, it leads to self-destruction. But it's still not too late to redeem itself and that can be done in a number of ways. It's still too early to say.

Frankenstein is still on the operating table.

I might of course be wrong, but I honestly believe that this proposed government will not last. In Ireland the SPS would be described as "chancers", ie opportunists without any principles. This will become apparent as time goes on and the government ceases to function. A repeat election might be just what is needed. The results would, I believe, be very different than the last one.

Bganon,

"Further, if they truly reform that SPS might be enough for me (and other Serbs with leftish views) to vote for them.”

- But what exactly do you meant by reform??

Is it sell out any principles and values upon which the party was formed and stand by? Irrespective of the argument that they followed them or not

Did you just the other day say they had no principles so it makes me wonder how sincere an SPS voter you'd be if they did exactly what you mean by "reform" which remains a mystery since you fail to convey what that "reform" actually means!

As for Leftist - wow strange sense of what "leftist" means but seems not unlike the so called sentiment of "NU Labour" (champagne socialism) in the UK who have apparent "leftist" sentiments. Under such "leftist" policies the reality is that only the few are genuinely & immensely better off while the masses are now paying for their recklessness and massive bonuses these last 10 years!


Bganon, I said it before that it comes across as if you really don’t know want to stand for and whom with the constant flip-flopping from apparent "leftist" to be an ardent promoter of consumerism with its excesses and inequality but that does not seem to bother your view of social inclusion. http://xs4.b92.net/eng/news/your_comment.php?nav_id=51288


"I think you'd do a sterling job as propaganda minister in Bogoljub Karic's government"

Thanks for the complement - generally they say complements are a reflection of the one making the compliment! Especially since that is not what I said but you wish to misconstrue again. I was raising the point that the last PM Cvetkovic (Dragisa) was willing to sell out to the Germans on what ever they demanded and happened to be handpicked by the Prince Regent - history has a way of throwing up similarities never quite repeating but the similarity of the situation is uncanny to say the least! We are wise to note and learn from them - the Serbians then as did many other "Yugoslavs" at the time were not willing to accept such a fait accompli and will not today! It's quite different from your twisted slant on my view sugggestion it was Nazi slur - guess we are back to your self-reflective compliment!

Show me a political party that isn't happy to go to the country if they will increase their share of the vote...

By the way you guys need to stop being obsessed with outside factors. Serbia does exist on its own you know and does not need permission to run repeat elections. Besides, isn't it a contradiction to your theory that international countries (excluding Russia which is ostensibly neutral) support a reformist government? If they do support DS surely they would favour repeat elections...

Tell me do either of you think that SPS will pass the census if there were repeat elections?

Now remind me who is in the weak bargaining position and who is strong?

Thank you ZK for restoring my faith with a straight reply. Pity that Princip can't be more honest and direct on this, as I'm sure he agrees.

If you are suggesting that SPS could still return to the arms of SRS / DSS I'm not convinced. I think they have made their bed now and you know how little politicians like U turns. It would be deeply humiliating for them and there is no guarantee that all patriotic block members will have them back.

One last thing, SRS also have a vested interest in going to the polls again. If I was a SRS strategist I would spurn any SPS attempts to rejoin and pick up another couple of percent of their voters in re-held elections.

But I strongly believe that in new polls SPS would not make 5 percent. More importantly, they strongly believe this too.

Well Princip forgive me if I'm wrong but you haven't let the lack of a crystal ball stop you from making predictions before. Why so shy in answering the question now?

Everybody knows (regardless of whether you support 'patriots' or 'democrats' that SPS have alienated their current voting base and face little chance of passing the census in a repeat election.

Now just because I said this weakens their position (it does) you want to dispute this?

I haven't written off SPS in future elections. I realise that you prefer to give speeches here than to actually listen or learn something, but I have said a number of times that SPS will eventually get a new voting constituency. Perhaps in regular elections in 4 years they will drop below 5 percent, but they will be back after that. Further, if they truly reform that SPS might be enough for me (and other Serbs with leftish views) to vote for them.

Oh I see princip, dumbing down again, Cvetkovic is a nazi is he? Thats great evidence you have there.
Good show! I think you'd do a sterling job as propaganda minister in Bogoljub Karic's government.

There you have it bganon your axeman (ZES) is having a field day in the lush forest of Democracy. The largest government in Serbia including your beloved Europe... as if it wasn't already big enough.

Don't fret over which position the socialists get, all your coalition partners are the same bloody thing, just under different names and colours. The Serb leaders of pre-1918 are rolling over in their graves.

Kind of ridiculous the amount of ministries the new government will have, but sadly nothing new.

By the way I think ZES should not give the responsiblity of police to Dacic, for obvious reasons.
Hardball really, SPS made their choice and will be petrified of repeat elections. Thats a weak negotiating position.

Princip you think by beating around the bush that I wouldn't notice you avoided answering the original issue?

So which is it, do you believe that SPS will pass the census if repeat elections were held? If so then why didn't you say so?

I don't expect you will reply.

Aha so Cvetkovic isn't a nazi, he will just be willing to do whatever they tell him. On the basis of the actions of somebody else with a similar name.

Very scientific Princip. What is your surname, I'm sure we can find somebody in history to prove conclusively what negative traits you have.

Your argument is absurd.

bganon,

compliments once more! No arrogance just a reminder of history so please feel free to twist this comment seeing as thats your current mood!

Regardng SPS representation I think you will find that I answered that in my own way already. But seeing as you didnt fully comprehend ( in which case I apologise for giving you more credit in English language then I should have if that is the case sorry) so I'll stress again; it really does depend on many unknown variables - there are too many what, how, who, where, when and why possiblities to know now how SPS would fair in such elections.

I'd pose the question could you be certain that such a coalition would be a choice again ? That is also something that might or might not be the case but it would like already said depend on many variables and too many worth speculating upon!

That you can't accept that as a genuine viewpoint and apprecitate it as my honest answer brings us back to another self reflecting compliment unless of course I saddly overestimated your English language comprehension abilities!!!

I would say though that Belgrade has become one big game of chicken for all concerned. That is frankly a sad reflection of politics in Serbia given many countries in the world can have opposition parties ruling capitols and important centers without need for frankly BS that only a ruling government can run the capitol - as is being mercilessly persued by DS and G17. For example London has a Conservative Mayor, Scotland has a nationalist Governement but Labour are in government. Thus this argument by DS and G17 is totally ridiculous and goes against reality of other democracies.

It will be intersting to see how this pans out but this should never have been so politicied by Dinkic and others to the point now that D yeS seem to be willing to give up governance for Mayor of Belgrade! SPS can wait this out D yeS have been "advised" to get on with a Euro-nationalist agenda sharpish so I really don't believe D yeS has a strong bargaining position!

Kind of ridiculous the amount of ministries the new government will have, but sadly nothing new.

By the way I think ZES should not give the responsiblity of police to Dacic, for obvious reasons.
Hardball really, SPS made their choice and will be petrified of repeat elections. Thats a weak negotiating position.

Show me a political party that isn't happy to go to the country if they will increase their share of the vote...

By the way you guys need to stop being obsessed with outside factors. Serbia does exist on its own you know and does not need permission to run repeat elections. Besides, isn't it a contradiction to your theory that international countries (excluding Russia which is ostensibly neutral) support a reformist government? If they do support DS surely they would favour repeat elections...

Tell me do either of you think that SPS will pass the census if there were repeat elections?

Now remind me who is in the weak bargaining position and who is strong?

Well Princip forgive me if I'm wrong but you haven't let the lack of a crystal ball stop you from making predictions before. Why so shy in answering the question now?

Everybody knows (regardless of whether you support 'patriots' or 'democrats' that SPS have alienated their current voting base and face little chance of passing the census in a repeat election.

Now just because I said this weakens their position (it does) you want to dispute this?

I haven't written off SPS in future elections. I realise that you prefer to give speeches here than to actually listen or learn something, but I have said a number of times that SPS will eventually get a new voting constituency. Perhaps in regular elections in 4 years they will drop below 5 percent, but they will be back after that. Further, if they truly reform that SPS might be enough for me (and other Serbs with leftish views) to vote for them.

Oh I see princip, dumbing down again, Cvetkovic is a nazi is he? Thats great evidence you have there.
Good show! I think you'd do a sterling job as propaganda minister in Bogoljub Karic's government.

Thank you ZK for restoring my faith with a straight reply. Pity that Princip can't be more honest and direct on this, as I'm sure he agrees.

If you are suggesting that SPS could still return to the arms of SRS / DSS I'm not convinced. I think they have made their bed now and you know how little politicians like U turns. It would be deeply humiliating for them and there is no guarantee that all patriotic block members will have them back.

One last thing, SRS also have a vested interest in going to the polls again. If I was a SRS strategist I would spurn any SPS attempts to rejoin and pick up another couple of percent of their voters in re-held elections.

But I strongly believe that in new polls SPS would not make 5 percent. More importantly, they strongly believe this too.

Bganon,

I dont think anyone wants new elections amonsgt your favoured D yes to all that EU demands least of all the bosses running the coalition charade such as Solano and Co.!

But then if new elections were to occur I think you'll find some fragmentation of the SPS-PUPS-JS coalition which would make for a very different campaign and result.

The weakest bargaining position is that of D yeS and they know it just as you do so there will be much more concessions if this Frankenstein is to happen!

Well, Frankenstein has many pieces that all need to be forced together some way or another.

Dacic has more pull than the DS so if he wants to control that bolt through Frankenstein's neck, then so it will be.

He seems to be standing firm for now and selling out his party won't come cheap.

I think you are a bit optimistic with your view bganon, you think the DS/EU/US are going to allow repeat elections?

Bganon,

"Tell me do either of you think that SPS will pass the census if there were repeat elections? "

- now if I had such a magic ball do you think I would be commenting here. That said in reply to such a rhetorical question as you probably have answered it for yourself - it really depends on what is most important to SPS and how they were forced into such a position as DS are plaing upon them. Like I mentioned before SRS and DSS-NS would be wise to leave SPS coalition a great deal of options and to not fully close the door when talks paused to see what D yeS had to offer. Sure Markovic off Jagodina has shown his hand only too easily and its interesting that you have already written off the SPS in any future elections - guess you appreciated Zivkovic's view on taking away the SPS youth vote!

"Now remind me who is in the weak bargaining position and who is strong?"

Like I said it really depends upon your perspective and I am sure "advisors" like the ones for Markovic of Jagodina are placing a great deal of pressure on Tadic to accept any position taken by SPS. Especially given the ones most likely to abhor new elections would be those pulling the DS strings ( and rely on him to get their way http://xs4.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=06&dd=30&nav_id=51517 )and as witneseed quite blatantly by EUcratic circles not least the UK Ambassadors whose words in all reality are Worthless given the false promise of Serbia (minus kosovo) is nothing more then a false promise.

I hope you picked up on the coincidence over Tadic's choice to "Regently" select Cvetkovic as PM. http://xs4.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=51491 No one accepted the submissive nature of that Cvetkovic Goverenemnt and they wont be doing so now. I'll remind you we have much to thank the democratic nature of the Irish that have highlighted the "false promise" given and Serbians won't be coperate in any way what so ever in this "indecent proposal" deceit!

So lets see who needs the formation of this Govt more - I am sure the next week will be telling but beyond that whenever they do come be they 4 months or 4 years the next election will be a straight choice EU with Kosovo (SRS DSS-NS) or without (D yeS LDP). The SPS will have a decision to make and I think they will be not so quick to accept "advice" from so called "friends of Serbia" at that point.

I might of course be wrong, but I honestly believe that this proposed government will not last. In Ireland the SPS would be described as "chancers", ie opportunists without any principles. This will become apparent as time goes on and the government ceases to function. A repeat election might be just what is needed. The results would, I believe, be very different than the last one.

bganon, if the SPS continues on its current path then you are quite right, it leads to self-destruction. But it's still not too late to redeem itself and that can be done in a number of ways. It's still too early to say.

Frankenstein is still on the operating table.

Bganon,

"Further, if they truly reform that SPS might be enough for me (and other Serbs with leftish views) to vote for them.”

- But what exactly do you meant by reform??

Is it sell out any principles and values upon which the party was formed and stand by? Irrespective of the argument that they followed them or not

Did you just the other day say they had no principles so it makes me wonder how sincere an SPS voter you'd be if they did exactly what you mean by "reform" which remains a mystery since you fail to convey what that "reform" actually means!

As for Leftist - wow strange sense of what "leftist" means but seems not unlike the so called sentiment of "NU Labour" (champagne socialism) in the UK who have apparent "leftist" sentiments. Under such "leftist" policies the reality is that only the few are genuinely & immensely better off while the masses are now paying for their recklessness and massive bonuses these last 10 years!


Bganon, I said it before that it comes across as if you really don’t know want to stand for and whom with the constant flip-flopping from apparent "leftist" to be an ardent promoter of consumerism with its excesses and inequality but that does not seem to bother your view of social inclusion. http://xs4.b92.net/eng/news/your_comment.php?nav_id=51288


"I think you'd do a sterling job as propaganda minister in Bogoljub Karic's government"

Thanks for the complement - generally they say complements are a reflection of the one making the compliment! Especially since that is not what I said but you wish to misconstrue again. I was raising the point that the last PM Cvetkovic (Dragisa) was willing to sell out to the Germans on what ever they demanded and happened to be handpicked by the Prince Regent - history has a way of throwing up similarities never quite repeating but the similarity of the situation is uncanny to say the least! We are wise to note and learn from them - the Serbians then as did many other "Yugoslavs" at the time were not willing to accept such a fait accompli and will not today! It's quite different from your twisted slant on my view sugggestion it was Nazi slur - guess we are back to your self-reflective compliment!

There you have it bganon your axeman (ZES) is having a field day in the lush forest of Democracy. The largest government in Serbia including your beloved Europe... as if it wasn't already big enough.

Don't fret over which position the socialists get, all your coalition partners are the same bloody thing, just under different names and colours. The Serb leaders of pre-1918 are rolling over in their graves.

Princip you think by beating around the bush that I wouldn't notice you avoided answering the original issue?

So which is it, do you believe that SPS will pass the census if repeat elections were held? If so then why didn't you say so?

I don't expect you will reply.

Aha so Cvetkovic isn't a nazi, he will just be willing to do whatever they tell him. On the basis of the actions of somebody else with a similar name.

Very scientific Princip. What is your surname, I'm sure we can find somebody in history to prove conclusively what negative traits you have.

Your argument is absurd.

bganon,

compliments once more! No arrogance just a reminder of history so please feel free to twist this comment seeing as thats your current mood!

Regardng SPS representation I think you will find that I answered that in my own way already. But seeing as you didnt fully comprehend ( in which case I apologise for giving you more credit in English language then I should have if that is the case sorry) so I'll stress again; it really does depend on many unknown variables - there are too many what, how, who, where, when and why possiblities to know now how SPS would fair in such elections.

I'd pose the question could you be certain that such a coalition would be a choice again ? That is also something that might or might not be the case but it would like already said depend on many variables and too many worth speculating upon!

That you can't accept that as a genuine viewpoint and apprecitate it as my honest answer brings us back to another self reflecting compliment unless of course I saddly overestimated your English language comprehension abilities!!!

I would say though that Belgrade has become one big game of chicken for all concerned. That is frankly a sad reflection of politics in Serbia given many countries in the world can have opposition parties ruling capitols and important centers without need for frankly BS that only a ruling government can run the capitol - as is being mercilessly persued by DS and G17. For example London has a Conservative Mayor, Scotland has a nationalist Governement but Labour are in government. Thus this argument by DS and G17 is totally ridiculous and goes against reality of other democracies.

It will be intersting to see how this pans out but this should never have been so politicied by Dinkic and others to the point now that D yeS seem to be willing to give up governance for Mayor of Belgrade! SPS can wait this out D yeS have been "advised" to get on with a Euro-nationalist agenda sharpish so I really don't believe D yeS has a strong bargaining position!