Ban hoping for new talks

They are just phased by the reality of Serbian institutions being established in Kosovo this weekend - that's the rush to suddenly get Belgrade on board.

The UN can't do anything about this and the Kosovo provincial government will have to be reined in and controlled in its reactions.

The simple lesson is that you cannot forcibly create a state from the province of an established sovereign nation. It just can't happen and won't function.

And I for one do not want a 'modern' Europe where groups can claim territory on the basis of ethnicity and population growth. My God that is so far removed from modern European countries!

Will children become tools and statistics and women be taken back to the Dark Ages? This is a terrible prospect and I just wonder how it can sit with the modern progressive elements of the EU Charter (or living standards come to that)?!

I am sure that many Kosovo Albanians do not want this either, but by recognising Kosovo this is the message that will go out to other groups and wannabe states. That territory can be gained through population growth (and worryingly there are some posters on here who gloat about the numbers of kids they have compared to Serbs!).

I don't mean any offense by this, but it really is a non-progressive attitude. And certainly not a modern European stance.

There has to be approval and consent from the govt of the sovereign state, the provincial government in Kosovo, and the UN. A legally ratified compromise.

What will be left is a high level of autonomous rule.

I feel really sorry for the Serbs and other minorities in Kosovo - they must be terribly frightened at the moment, and I hope that they will be totally protected.

Such talks are pointless and unproductive as long as Washington tells Pristina to sit with their hands under the bums. The Albanians have effectively been told no negotiations are necessary so long as Washington is in the picture, which explains why the negotiations last year amounted to. Should America dump Kosovo into the lap of the EU, the same officials would have little to stand up on their own.

As for the Serbian side, functional separation is the most strategic thing to push for. Kosovo is destined to become another Bosnia sooner or later.

Cakes, that was a nice rant you went on, but you are not in charge. The interim provincial authorities in Kosovo-Metohija will do what they are told to do by their overloards, the U.S. It's as simlpe as that. Please stop pretending that the K_Albanians have any real decision making. America will say jump to the Albanians, and they will ask how high? That is the price Albaniacs are paying now, no self rule.

I must admit, that I am amused to read those albanian comments, trying to belittle Mr. Moon as a "spokesperson"...or giving lectures about "the big three" in the UNSC who are the "big bosses"...

man, that´s really unbelievably naive! how old are they, actually, to write such a nonsense???

well, we´ve all seen how omnipotent the "big three" are, when they dropped the kosovo-issue in the UNSC and were forced to act outside of it and the international laws.

and that was only because of the russian THREAT of veto-ing!

my dear albanian friends...

it must be hard for you, but I ´ll tell you something.

this is only the beginning. the word is" new round of talks". and that´s what you will hear or read again in the future.

you are no state, and certainly not independent. you still haven´t got it, but you will, I am sure of that.

but those childish attempts to play down Mr. Moon or the events taking place are just what they are: childish and very likely quite desperate.

Dear all,

Mr.Ban Ki Mun is just a spokesperson of the UN. The UN decisions are taken from the main contributors of the UNSC, that is USA, UK and FRance, thus Mr. Ban must say/announce what their BIG bosses decide, and WE all know what the BIG three think of Kosovo.

A functional partition with a technical agreement in place for transportation and movement between enclaves is really the only thing to negotiate now.

Mike, I tend to agree with your points except that the status of Kosovo will remain blocked at the UN - so will legally remain Serbian.

As for the Albanians negotiating, well, they are told what to do so they don't really have a say I'm afraid.

Ban does not have to "hope" for new talks, because Kosovo is the one that came up with the Friendship Treaty last year during the extra-negotiations.

Kosovo will readily cooperate with Serbia in helping the Serb minority integrate in the new post-independence situation.

However, Tadic will have to be very smooth in his talks, because the Kosovar authorities will not negotiate if Tadic somehow presents proposals that are even remotely contradictory to the independence of Kosovo.

He will have to negotiate knowing that if he proposes an idea that is in contradiction with the independence of Kosovo, his proposal will be readily rejected.

In short, he'd have to recognize the independence of Kosovo on a personal level for practical purposes, even if he doesn't recognize it as a president of Serbia.

If he agrees to these basic guideliness, then the talks will be successful. Otherwise, the Kosovo authorities will just claim that Tadic is threatening the independence of Kosovo with his proposals, and the talks will fail.

Kate

Reading your post one can understand that people are not supposed to be free and create families but they should be limited to what Serbian politics say.

Women giving birth to children are branded as returning to dark ages, this goes to any woman anywhere or to Albanian women only. My understanding is that this implies to every women.

I happen to know lots of Serbian families that have more than 2 or 3 children and that is Belgrade too. This is normal in any place and to any person except for some.

If you really feel sorry than you should feel sorry for those Albanians that live in North of Kosova.

Mr.Ban thinks that it nice to discuss about the missing persons(1200 K-Albanians still missing and 200 K-Serbs), economy and trade, war criminals but as two separate entities.

Ahmed, Joe, Ben, Olf and other Albanian posters,

Do you realized yet how unreal and childish your posts were a while ago – “after June 15th everything will change – WAVE of recognitions, borders crossings procedures,
Mr. Samardzic - no way to enter Kosovo, strong Kosovo army – no UNMIK etc.”
And be objective and honest and admit that was just nationalistic wishes and enthusiasm.

For Serbian posters also -need to be realistic, and accept that wrong policy, both of pre-war and after war politicians were wrong and most of Kosovo is almost lost, get handle on parts you can control and get the best deal for the rest.

That means – reality check for everybody – real talks and negotiations in good faith should take place – otherwise everybody will lose – Serbia can handle status quo with no benefits – with K-Serbs left in limbo. Kosovo Albanians will benefit nothing – they didn’t get anything real except above-mentioned unreal expectations and childish wishes.

avi: "I'm surprised of your comments,I thought you were well educated and person withEuropian valus but no.I presume from your name you are a lady and you had or you will one day have children"

You just proved my point. You seem incapable of grasping any of what I was saying. And what does 'being a lady' have to do with my opinions on this subject?

Are children just a matter for women (that's what they tend to be called nowadays when discussing social issues)? Oh dear, oh dear.

Olf: "Reading your post one can understand that people are not supposed to be free and create families but they should be limited to what Serbian politics say."

I am not Serbian and I'm not talking on behalf of anyone's politics. I am speaking as an individual European.

You are too intelligent (unless you genuinely misread what I wrote) to believe that I am trying to curb anyone's rights to having as many children as they want. That wasn't at all what I was saying.

But I think that there should be alternatives for women if they choose, and if people want to have large families obviously there has to be an income to support it.

You know that it's not Serbs on here who say things like 'We have 8 children and Serb men only have 1. This is how we will take over territory. They are not men etc. etc.." I have seen that comment at least 3 times on here.

What I said was: "And I for one do not want a 'modern' Europe where groups can claim territory on the basis of ethnicity and population growth. My God that is so far removed from modern European countries!"

That is true. This is the basis of this land grab - the fact that one ethnic group is a majority and it has been stated quite openly by some Albanians on here that having as many kids as possible is one route to becoming a majority.

I am not saying that everyone thinks like that, but there certainly is an element of it. That is what I wouldn't like to see becoming the 'norm'.

I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, which you should know by now. Every child who exists, Serbian or Albanian or any other, is the most valuable thing in the world and certainly shouldn't be used to fight wars or win land.

I read an interview with a lecturer on gender issues at Pristina University, and I'm sure that she too would agree with my point and understand what I'm trying to say.

"If you really feel sorry than you should feel sorry for those Albanians that live in North of Kosovo."

I do, honestly. I'm sure it's pretty frightening for them, but by and large there are very few isolated Albanian enclaves.

And by the way, your point about large Serbian families is not something that I have ever come across. I'm not saying that they don't exist, but it's not particularly usual as far as I can tell.

>>Will children become tools and statistics and women be taken back to the Dark Ages? This is a terrible prospect and I just wonder how it can sit with the modern progressive elements of the EU Charter (or living standards come to that)?!

Having sex and children is normal to Albanians. Between wars and poverty, we would have been gone as a nation if not for children.

Kate,

I'm surprised of your comments,I thought you were well educated and person withEuropian valus but no.I presume from your name you are a lady and you had or you will one day have children.

Kate,

it's exactly the opposite of your perception.
By not recognizing Kosovo we send to every state in the world the message they can do anything they wish with those ethnic groups they perceive as a threat; the max. penalty is the concession of a high degree of autonomy (to be removed ASAP).

Rules are not above people, people make rules.

Life is a gift from God!
We were brought up in this World to love, to cherish, to prosper!
Bringing children to this World is bringing Love to this World!
And you my dear Kate are bringing only Hate in to this World!
Better keep your negative energy for yourself and let us Hope that one day we can all live together in Kosovo!!!

"I feel really sorry for the Serbs and other minorities in Kosovo - they must be terribly frightened at the moment, and I hope that they will be totally protected.
(Kate, 27 June 2008 13:50)

My concern Kate is that the Serbian minority is being manipulated sistematically by the Serbian government. As soon as a REALISTIC government is in charge in Serbia and recognises Kosova as an independent country things will move steadfast forward. I am absolutely sure that the Kosova's government is willing to work for REAL peace with all the neigbouring countries including Serbia. Mutual respect of minorities is a PRIORITY. That would be the right approach. I very much doubt any other way will provide everlasting peace and stability.

To Kate and others:

There are much more common sense explanations of population growth, than that of wanting to grab a territory from Serbia.
1) Deliberate abortions among Serbian families were for a long time around three times higher than that of Albanian families. The emancipation of women in the Serbian families was higher I guess.

2) Even without counting abortions, the birth rate was higher among Albanians, because a larger percentage of the Albanian population lived in rural areas, than that of the Serbian population. Serbs were mostly concentrated in big cities. The same can be seen in all the world. There are higher birth rates in rural areas than cities.

Those who say that the cause of the population growth was the desire to grab the land from the Serbs or to survive as a people are wrong and give a twisted interpretation of this phenomenon.

Jovan and to the other serbs

wern't you the ones that said the US was withdrawing their support and backing away from the promises they had made to us albanians

that kosovo would never dare declare independence

that Canda would NEVER recognise because of the Quebec issue

ect,ect,ect

Kate,
I have read the comments posted in response to your comment and all I can say is, they are empty.

All the Albanians can come up with is twisting your words.
Like with any other debate, they cannot debate with any logic, but emotion and they have to resort to twisting words in order to discredit people like you.

It's obvious to all non Albanians here.

Your argument is solid and they certainly haven't succeeded in punching any holes in it.

Yes, having children is the only way a human race can survive and so it is important. Children are God's gifts and have to be treasured. What mustn't happen is for anyone to treat the children as pawns in a war and produce these children for the purpose of making one's race a majority and then laying claim to the land.

This is what the Albanians have admitted to doing and they have the audacity to try to make you look like an uncaring, hateful woman.

You should only have as many children as you can afford for having more is child abuse, as you cannot give those children what they need to set up their lives in the future.

About what!!! the only talk is serbia to tell where are the left over albanian's dead body's

you got nothing, ...without NATO support there would not be this crippled-puppet-entity that you call a state.. I´ll put it into the words of our albanian friends: "lol"

I still wait for that ominous "wave"...

let´s just see what future brings! :)

Thanks, Peggy. I appreciate that and agree with what you say.

shqarthi: "Deliberate abortions among Serbian families were for a long time around three times higher than that of Albanian families. The emancipation of women in the Serbian families was higher I guess."

Emancipation of women does not necessarily link to a high abortion rate. Quite often it is poor women and not necessarily emancipated women who have abortions.

Ban does not have to "hope" for new talks, because Kosovo is the one that came up with the Friendship Treaty last year during the extra-negotiations.

Kosovo will readily cooperate with Serbia in helping the Serb minority integrate in the new post-independence situation.

However, Tadic will have to be very smooth in his talks, because the Kosovar authorities will not negotiate if Tadic somehow presents proposals that are even remotely contradictory to the independence of Kosovo.

He will have to negotiate knowing that if he proposes an idea that is in contradiction with the independence of Kosovo, his proposal will be readily rejected.

In short, he'd have to recognize the independence of Kosovo on a personal level for practical purposes, even if he doesn't recognize it as a president of Serbia.

If he agrees to these basic guideliness, then the talks will be successful. Otherwise, the Kosovo authorities will just claim that Tadic is threatening the independence of Kosovo with his proposals, and the talks will fail.

They are just phased by the reality of Serbian institutions being established in Kosovo this weekend - that's the rush to suddenly get Belgrade on board.

The UN can't do anything about this and the Kosovo provincial government will have to be reined in and controlled in its reactions.

The simple lesson is that you cannot forcibly create a state from the province of an established sovereign nation. It just can't happen and won't function.

And I for one do not want a 'modern' Europe where groups can claim territory on the basis of ethnicity and population growth. My God that is so far removed from modern European countries!

Will children become tools and statistics and women be taken back to the Dark Ages? This is a terrible prospect and I just wonder how it can sit with the modern progressive elements of the EU Charter (or living standards come to that)?!

I am sure that many Kosovo Albanians do not want this either, but by recognising Kosovo this is the message that will go out to other groups and wannabe states. That territory can be gained through population growth (and worryingly there are some posters on here who gloat about the numbers of kids they have compared to Serbs!).

I don't mean any offense by this, but it really is a non-progressive attitude. And certainly not a modern European stance.

There has to be approval and consent from the govt of the sovereign state, the provincial government in Kosovo, and the UN. A legally ratified compromise.

What will be left is a high level of autonomous rule.

I feel really sorry for the Serbs and other minorities in Kosovo - they must be terribly frightened at the moment, and I hope that they will be totally protected.

I must admit, that I am amused to read those albanian comments, trying to belittle Mr. Moon as a "spokesperson"...or giving lectures about "the big three" in the UNSC who are the "big bosses"...

man, that´s really unbelievably naive! how old are they, actually, to write such a nonsense???

well, we´ve all seen how omnipotent the "big three" are, when they dropped the kosovo-issue in the UNSC and were forced to act outside of it and the international laws.

and that was only because of the russian THREAT of veto-ing!

my dear albanian friends...

it must be hard for you, but I ´ll tell you something.

this is only the beginning. the word is" new round of talks". and that´s what you will hear or read again in the future.

you are no state, and certainly not independent. you still haven´t got it, but you will, I am sure of that.

but those childish attempts to play down Mr. Moon or the events taking place are just what they are: childish and very likely quite desperate.

Cakes, that was a nice rant you went on, but you are not in charge. The interim provincial authorities in Kosovo-Metohija will do what they are told to do by their overloards, the U.S. It's as simlpe as that. Please stop pretending that the K_Albanians have any real decision making. America will say jump to the Albanians, and they will ask how high? That is the price Albaniacs are paying now, no self rule.

Dear all,

Mr.Ban Ki Mun is just a spokesperson of the UN. The UN decisions are taken from the main contributors of the UNSC, that is USA, UK and FRance, thus Mr. Ban must say/announce what their BIG bosses decide, and WE all know what the BIG three think of Kosovo.

A functional partition with a technical agreement in place for transportation and movement between enclaves is really the only thing to negotiate now.

Mike, I tend to agree with your points except that the status of Kosovo will remain blocked at the UN - so will legally remain Serbian.

As for the Albanians negotiating, well, they are told what to do so they don't really have a say I'm afraid.

Kate,

I'm surprised of your comments,I thought you were well educated and person withEuropian valus but no.I presume from your name you are a lady and you had or you will one day have children.

Kate,

it's exactly the opposite of your perception.
By not recognizing Kosovo we send to every state in the world the message they can do anything they wish with those ethnic groups they perceive as a threat; the max. penalty is the concession of a high degree of autonomy (to be removed ASAP).

Rules are not above people, people make rules.

Kate

Reading your post one can understand that people are not supposed to be free and create families but they should be limited to what Serbian politics say.

Women giving birth to children are branded as returning to dark ages, this goes to any woman anywhere or to Albanian women only. My understanding is that this implies to every women.

I happen to know lots of Serbian families that have more than 2 or 3 children and that is Belgrade too. This is normal in any place and to any person except for some.

If you really feel sorry than you should feel sorry for those Albanians that live in North of Kosova.

Mr.Ban thinks that it nice to discuss about the missing persons(1200 K-Albanians still missing and 200 K-Serbs), economy and trade, war criminals but as two separate entities.

avi: "I'm surprised of your comments,I thought you were well educated and person withEuropian valus but no.I presume from your name you are a lady and you had or you will one day have children"

You just proved my point. You seem incapable of grasping any of what I was saying. And what does 'being a lady' have to do with my opinions on this subject?

Are children just a matter for women (that's what they tend to be called nowadays when discussing social issues)? Oh dear, oh dear.

Olf: "Reading your post one can understand that people are not supposed to be free and create families but they should be limited to what Serbian politics say."

I am not Serbian and I'm not talking on behalf of anyone's politics. I am speaking as an individual European.

You are too intelligent (unless you genuinely misread what I wrote) to believe that I am trying to curb anyone's rights to having as many children as they want. That wasn't at all what I was saying.

But I think that there should be alternatives for women if they choose, and if people want to have large families obviously there has to be an income to support it.

You know that it's not Serbs on here who say things like 'We have 8 children and Serb men only have 1. This is how we will take over territory. They are not men etc. etc.." I have seen that comment at least 3 times on here.

What I said was: "And I for one do not want a 'modern' Europe where groups can claim territory on the basis of ethnicity and population growth. My God that is so far removed from modern European countries!"

That is true. This is the basis of this land grab - the fact that one ethnic group is a majority and it has been stated quite openly by some Albanians on here that having as many kids as possible is one route to becoming a majority.

I am not saying that everyone thinks like that, but there certainly is an element of it. That is what I wouldn't like to see becoming the 'norm'.

I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, which you should know by now. Every child who exists, Serbian or Albanian or any other, is the most valuable thing in the world and certainly shouldn't be used to fight wars or win land.

I read an interview with a lecturer on gender issues at Pristina University, and I'm sure that she too would agree with my point and understand what I'm trying to say.

"If you really feel sorry than you should feel sorry for those Albanians that live in North of Kosovo."

I do, honestly. I'm sure it's pretty frightening for them, but by and large there are very few isolated Albanian enclaves.

And by the way, your point about large Serbian families is not something that I have ever come across. I'm not saying that they don't exist, but it's not particularly usual as far as I can tell.

Life is a gift from God!
We were brought up in this World to love, to cherish, to prosper!
Bringing children to this World is bringing Love to this World!
And you my dear Kate are bringing only Hate in to this World!
Better keep your negative energy for yourself and let us Hope that one day we can all live together in Kosovo!!!

>>Will children become tools and statistics and women be taken back to the Dark Ages? This is a terrible prospect and I just wonder how it can sit with the modern progressive elements of the EU Charter (or living standards come to that)?!

Having sex and children is normal to Albanians. Between wars and poverty, we would have been gone as a nation if not for children.

Jovan and to the other serbs

wern't you the ones that said the US was withdrawing their support and backing away from the promises they had made to us albanians

that kosovo would never dare declare independence

that Canda would NEVER recognise because of the Quebec issue

ect,ect,ect

Such talks are pointless and unproductive as long as Washington tells Pristina to sit with their hands under the bums. The Albanians have effectively been told no negotiations are necessary so long as Washington is in the picture, which explains why the negotiations last year amounted to. Should America dump Kosovo into the lap of the EU, the same officials would have little to stand up on their own.

As for the Serbian side, functional separation is the most strategic thing to push for. Kosovo is destined to become another Bosnia sooner or later.

Ahmed, Joe, Ben, Olf and other Albanian posters,

Do you realized yet how unreal and childish your posts were a while ago – “after June 15th everything will change – WAVE of recognitions, borders crossings procedures,
Mr. Samardzic - no way to enter Kosovo, strong Kosovo army – no UNMIK etc.”
And be objective and honest and admit that was just nationalistic wishes and enthusiasm.

For Serbian posters also -need to be realistic, and accept that wrong policy, both of pre-war and after war politicians were wrong and most of Kosovo is almost lost, get handle on parts you can control and get the best deal for the rest.

That means – reality check for everybody – real talks and negotiations in good faith should take place – otherwise everybody will lose – Serbia can handle status quo with no benefits – with K-Serbs left in limbo. Kosovo Albanians will benefit nothing – they didn’t get anything real except above-mentioned unreal expectations and childish wishes.

About what!!! the only talk is serbia to tell where are the left over albanian's dead body's

you got nothing, ...without NATO support there would not be this crippled-puppet-entity that you call a state.. I´ll put it into the words of our albanian friends: "lol"

I still wait for that ominous "wave"...

let´s just see what future brings! :)

Kate,
I have read the comments posted in response to your comment and all I can say is, they are empty.

All the Albanians can come up with is twisting your words.
Like with any other debate, they cannot debate with any logic, but emotion and they have to resort to twisting words in order to discredit people like you.

It's obvious to all non Albanians here.

Your argument is solid and they certainly haven't succeeded in punching any holes in it.

Yes, having children is the only way a human race can survive and so it is important. Children are God's gifts and have to be treasured. What mustn't happen is for anyone to treat the children as pawns in a war and produce these children for the purpose of making one's race a majority and then laying claim to the land.

This is what the Albanians have admitted to doing and they have the audacity to try to make you look like an uncaring, hateful woman.

You should only have as many children as you can afford for having more is child abuse, as you cannot give those children what they need to set up their lives in the future.

To Kate and others:

There are much more common sense explanations of population growth, than that of wanting to grab a territory from Serbia.
1) Deliberate abortions among Serbian families were for a long time around three times higher than that of Albanian families. The emancipation of women in the Serbian families was higher I guess.

2) Even without counting abortions, the birth rate was higher among Albanians, because a larger percentage of the Albanian population lived in rural areas, than that of the Serbian population. Serbs were mostly concentrated in big cities. The same can be seen in all the world. There are higher birth rates in rural areas than cities.

Those who say that the cause of the population growth was the desire to grab the land from the Serbs or to survive as a people are wrong and give a twisted interpretation of this phenomenon.

"I feel really sorry for the Serbs and other minorities in Kosovo - they must be terribly frightened at the moment, and I hope that they will be totally protected.
(Kate, 27 June 2008 13:50)

My concern Kate is that the Serbian minority is being manipulated sistematically by the Serbian government. As soon as a REALISTIC government is in charge in Serbia and recognises Kosova as an independent country things will move steadfast forward. I am absolutely sure that the Kosova's government is willing to work for REAL peace with all the neigbouring countries including Serbia. Mutual respect of minorities is a PRIORITY. That would be the right approach. I very much doubt any other way will provide everlasting peace and stability.

Thanks, Peggy. I appreciate that and agree with what you say.

shqarthi: "Deliberate abortions among Serbian families were for a long time around three times higher than that of Albanian families. The emancipation of women in the Serbian families was higher I guess."

Emancipation of women does not necessarily link to a high abortion rate. Quite often it is poor women and not necessarily emancipated women who have abortions.