Although Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić says Fatmir Sejdiu will not address the UN Security Council as Kosovo president, Priština media report otherwise.
Willie Garvin:
> I have no bias on whether Kosovo should be part of Serbia or independent in respect of nationalist tendencies.
Read my last post again 'Willie Garvin', as I never said you did. Bias I was referring to was not towards one side or the other. Bias I was referring to was that against nationalists (from either side I presume) such as myself voicing their opinion as evidenced by the following:
> You sound like you support the Serbian nationalist cause and have already convinced yourself of the bad news. So, in advance, you're already started to make excuses why you should delude yourself of reality.
> But don't forget my second question. No doubt you will be rejoicing from the rooftops if Sejdiu is not introduced as President of sovereign Kosovo as proof of something or other.
All I did was put forward a theory which was heavily qualified. Turned out to be wrong. C'est la vie. Pristina media report it was based on also turned out to be wrong.
So here's a couple of points for you to remember -
Not all nationalists are extremists,
The message, not the messenger.
Pz:
You seem to have missed the point I was making.
Just because the UN allowed K-albanian elections to go through, does not imply legal recognition. UN is primarily concerned with maintaining the peace. Blocking elections (of either side) would've lead to instability, or outright violence. So they did not do it.
In Australia, in some cases, police elect to not pursue some suspects. They do so due to public safety concerns. Breaking off the pursuit does not make suspects actions retrospectively legal, as if caught later, will still be arrested - just as allowing elections to proceed does not imply retrospective legal recognition of UDI.
Mark Shqype, with your logic we can certainly carve up California and call it The New Republic of California.
Californians are Californians because of their geographical location, yes?
But there is no such ethnic race as Californains.
Why can't we carve up every state in America now and call it a separate country?
Texans will be Texans too.
Regions are not countries and therefore cannot produce those nationalities.
Kosovo is a part of Serbia and there is no such nationality as Kosovars.
If UNMIK was in charge with the approval & oversight for all elections held in Kosovo, including the one when Mr. Fatmir Sejdiu was elected, then it was legally recognized by the authority under which UNMIK functioned and approved those elections at the time. In this case it is UNSC, i.e. US, UK, France, Russia and China.
I think I was clear with the majority thing in UNSC, “If we talk about majority at UNSC, then this majority is on Kosovo’s side, but as we all know decisions in the UNSC are not brought by majority, but rather by consensus.”
I have no bias on whether Kosovo should be part of Serbia or independent in respect of nationalist tendencies. I have a major issue with the manner in which the process is being conducted and fear of the consequences.
Nevertheless, I'm not the least surprised by your reaction to criticism: 'must be playing for the other side!'
I have not seen the full transcript of the UNSC meeting, but there is NO indication that anybody introduced Sejdiu as President of a sovereign and independent state.
Nevertheless, the part of the meeting that has been made public, Ban Ki-moon's address, shows significant movement towards Kosovo statehood. And frankly it's a worry.
"But the new European nation of Kosova is one founded not on the basis of homogeneous ethnicity (like Ireland), but rather a new civil identity based on the values of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in a multi-ethnic, democratic society."
(Mark (Shqype), 20 June 2008 15:22)
I'm not so sure you can refer to the so called 'nation' of Kosovo as civil, based on the values of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness as well as multi-ethnic and democratic when the actions of the Kosovo Albanians contradict exactly what you wrote (see B92 article today regarding the stopping of an ambulance as well as the previous incidents of denying medical aid -- oh, and not to mention the barbed wire enclaves that the privileged Serb minority get to enjoy).
Also, when you say that Ireland was founded on the basis of homogeneous ethnicity, there can be many arguments made that this is exactly what has been attempted by the Kosovo Albanians.
I think it's worth rethinking your analysis when you paint Kosovo as a wonderland (or is it Disneyland?)
miri:
> Eh if it wasn't for those Russians!! But what do you know, you are already in the west aren't you?
Well technically, am in the east.
Willie Garvin:
Your original post (#21) posed an 'impartial' question to both sides based around the idea that 'defacto recognition by the UN' is implied by an introduction of Sejdiu as the 'president of Kosovo'.
I had a good look at it & gave my answer in post #24 in which I put forward a theory that the US might try to 'unilaterally impose' such an introduction using its capacity as current president of the UN SC, in order to further its own case for recognition of 'the republic of Kosovo'.
In your response (post #33), after taking out all the colourful & 'not so impartial' rhetoric, only thing of substance was your belief that the US would not do so as it might alienate non-aligned UN member states.
My theory however is based on the track record of George W Bush's presidency with regard to 'unilateral actions' all over the world, & by association therefore - the protocols & procedures of the UN.
It is based on the prevalent attitude in the 'white house' that it can act with impunity in whatever it does, & 'spin' away the consequences.
You may believe otherwise. You are free to do so.
I do not.
Pz:
UNMIK was charged with the approval & oversight for all elections held in Kosovo, as well as 'keeping the peace'. When K-albanians went ahead with their plans for independence by initiating elections, UN had to choose between maintaining stability & upholding the letter of the law.
UN chose the latter.
Just as they chose when serbs went ahead with their elections in opposition to the UDI not so long ago - in the process overruling ex-UNMIK chief & EU puppet, Joachim Ruecker.
Internationally/legally recognised by whom?
The majority of the current UN SC? Quite possibly but veto's make it irrelevant.
The majority of UN members? No.
As for a title, truly fair one for Sejdiu is leader of K-albanians in Kosovo.
Firstly, please understand that I have written my username as "Shqype," and I appreciate the general respect of having it written the same way when you refer to me.
You are correct in stating that "Kosovo is not a race." I do know it. There is only one race: the HUMAN race.
Albanian Kosovars speak Albanian, Serbian Kosovars speak Serbian, Montenegrin Kosovars speak Montenegrin, Turkish Kosovars speak Turkish, etc. All the people of Kosova have two identities: an ethnic identity and a civil identity. It is the same way here in the United States. Born in New York, I am a US citizen. Born to ethnically Albanian parents, I am an ethnic Albanian. Because the new Kosovar identity is a civil identity (just like the American identity, which was formed from immigrants of various ethnicities from around the world), one can be Albanian and Kosovar, Serbian and Kosovar, etc.
The nation of Ireland is one based on an ethnic identity, NOT a civil identity, whereas the nation of Kosova (like that of America) is one based on a civil identity rather than an ethnic identity.
Again, Albanians, Serbs, Africans, Chinese, and others are all part of the HUMAN race. Albanian Kosovars and Albanians from Albania proper both belong to the same Albanian ethnicity. But the new European nation of Kosova is one founded not on the basis of homogeneous ethnicity (like Ireland), but rather a new civil identity based on the values of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in a multi-ethnic, democratic society.
I have a question to all you who (Kate, Peggy, ZK UK, Niall O’Doherty put into question if Mr. Fatmir Sejdiu is the President of Kosovo and if he will be addressed as such at UNSC. Who organized elections when Mr. Sejdiu was elected for the President of Kosovo and when? This position, as such, has been internationally/legally recognized ever since Mr. Rugova was the President.
Maybe you should put into question if he will be addressed as President of the independent and sovereign Kosovo. In my opinion these are two different things.
If we talk about majority at UNSC, then this majority is on Kosovo’s side, but as we all know decisions in the UNSC are not brought by majority, but rather by consensus.
Dear Niall D’Oherty read this article which appeared on the Guardian on February 26, 2008. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/26/kosovo.serbia
I’m sure you know all these things and much more related things; it’s just that you want to make history as it suits you and your claims.
First of all Kosovo is not a race and you know it. What language do Kosovar speak?
Why are you referred to as K-Albanians or K-Serbs if you have your own identity.
If you speak Albanian then you are Albanian. Do you have a separate language from Albania? NO.
Irish are a separate race to the English. They have their own language and identity. You have brought your over from Albania.
Stop making up all this nonesense.
If you are indeed a different race from Albania then show us how.
Willie, the UN does not recognise Kosovo - fact - so if the US decide to refer to Sejdiu as president of Kosovo then they are obviously not representing the UN but rather their own occupation.
Just like raising the flag in the EP, I see it more as a sign of frustration more than anything else.
Just like Peter Feith and all his fairy tales about the EU mission ruling all of Kosovo and Serbians is a sign of frustration. The EU mission has failed.
It makes no difference to the situation on the ground except for Albanian entertainment. They love to listen to fairy tales and love all of these theatrics. It gives hope to their false dream and keeps them pacified.
Otherwise they'd be out there burning churches and causing death and destruction like the past. They even warned of such consequences if they did not get their way.
Let them believe I say. It only works in isolation so that is the way it must be. The Albanians are detached.
You sound like you support the Serbian nationalist cause and have already convinced yourself of the bad news. So, in advance, you're already started to make excuses why you should delude yourself of reality.
If the US goes all maverick in the UNSC chamber, and breaches established protocol, then it will act in Serbia's favour. Why? Because the 150ish member states that have NOT accepted Kosovo independence will likely dig their heels in at US bully-boy tactics.
But don't forget my second question. No doubt you will be rejoicing from the rooftops if Sejdiu is not introduced as President of sovereign Kosovo as proof of something or other.
You can't have it both ways. Either this is, or is not, a defining moment.
Niall D, Ireland and Kosova are much more alike than you'd like to admit:
Firstly, the Albanians are native to Kosova just as the Irish are native to Ireland. The "Ottomans replacing Serbs with Albanians" nonsense is nothing more than propaganda which is historically unjustified. The Albanians provided not only most of the warriors in the Serb-led Balkan coalition's Battle of Kosova in 1389, but they provided fierce resistance to the nucleus of the Serb state in the last millenium, as admitted by Vaso Cubrilovic, a Black Hand member part of the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
2) The Albanian people are also a distinct ethnic/linguistic Indo-European group, which are indigenous to their land. Your agument has no bearing on the "Kosovar identity," as this is a new, multi-ethnic identity. In Albanian history, Kosovar was a regional identity as part of the greater Albanian identity; however, in the 21st century, it's time to turn Kosova into a multi-ethnic and democratic state, where a new civil identity is to be formed.
3) After how many rebellions against the English did the final agreement result? The Irish have rebelled against the English for centuries, culminating in their eventual independence. It has been the same with the Albanians in Kosova. Right now Serbia does not recognize it, but in the future (no matter how long it takes), they will eventually learn to move forward (I hope). Plus, the desire to partition Mitrovica sounds similar to the entrenchment of the British in Northern Ireland, no?
The people of Kosova live in the newest European state, freed from Serbian rule once and for all. It cannot be undone, and it will not be undone. It is time for the people of Serbia to accept the reality and move towards good relations with their neighbors, so that everyone can profit and live peacefully in a stable Balkans.
"Mate, what are you trying to prove and who to?
Based on you posting current existing countries have existed since year 0. You fail to remember that Ireland became independent from Britain in early 20th century due to processes of changes. See Winds of Change.
I don’t want to dwell to much on this one but I just wanted to show your point of view from another prespective.
(Olf, 19 June 2008 16:17)"
Olf mate,
what I am trying to prove is that this whole sad and sorry episode and posturing by the US and its allies on behalf of the K-Albanians is in contravention of international law and threatens to undermine the very fabric that underpins world order. As we have been repeatedly seeing, the US and its allies are deliberatley flouting international law to suit their own interests irrespective of the consequences which is why 160+ countries do not recognise Pristina's UDD due to the knock on effects in their own countries and across the globe. This has the potential of opening a Pandora's box as any disgruntled ethnic group in any polity can use the Kosovo precedent to press their own claim. This has the ability to destabilise many states which is why the vast majority of the International Community refuses to recognise Kosovo's 'independence'. They believe that the Helsinki Agreement is there to prevent the unravelling of the sovereign nation state as we know it and are fighting, in spite of huge pressure from the US, to uphold international order and stability.
Sadly this all could have been avoided had the US and EU insisted on respecting Serbia territorial integrity and sovereignty by persuading the K-Albanians into meaningful talks with Belgrade. Pristina in turn should have taken up the offer from Tadic and Kostunica of substantial autonomy which would have benefited the K-Albanians immensly as they would be part of a legal entity which would have given them access to the Serbian and European job markets and not to say investment from Brussells and Belgrade. Now Pristina is left in a mess due to its legal limbo. Nobody will invest in Kosmet for obvious reasons. Due to its illegal status, it has no hope of ever getting into the UN, EU, World bank and many other affiliate organisations.
Kosmet has 2 million angry and impoverished people with nowhere to go and nothing to give. By being part of Serbia, many K-Albanians would have immediate access to the Serbian state funds enabling it to attract much needed investment. The current situation cannot last and sooner rather than later Pristina will be forced back to the table. its completely unfeasable.
Now back to Ireland.
You cannot compare Ireland to Kosovo. 2 completely different test cases as I stated back here some months ago when Mr Isufi used the East Timor analogy.
Firstly,
1. The Irish people are native to Ireland. The K-Albanians are not, having been brought in by the Ottoman Turks in the 17th century to replace the Serbs driven out after the 1689 uprising. The hundreds of churches in Kosmet many going back to the early medieval period points to a strong and established Serb presence. Besides the name 'Kosovo' is a Serbian name.
2. The Irish people are a distinct ethnic group belonging to the Celtic branch of the Indo European peoples. We have our own language & culture. There is no such thing as a Kosovar nationality, language, culture or national identity. can you explain to me just what were all those Albanian flags you were waving in Pristina.
3. In 1922 we conducted a bilateral agreement with the UK on our independence which made it legal in international law. The agreement we signed was the Anglo-Irish Treaty which came into force in 1922. We were subsequently able to join the League of Nations as an independent legal entity.
'Kosova' fails miserably on all 3 criteria. What you have in Kosmet is an attempted illegal landgrab by Serbian Albanians who forward their independence argument by being the simple majority in a southern Serbian province. However in the larger Serbian polity, the Albanians are a minority like their ethnic Hungarian, Slovak and Bosniak cohabitants. You live in Serbia so you are Serbian citizens.
Yes miri and if it wasn't for Russian meddling, the Nazis would be ruling Europe - though I doubt the Albanians would mind if that was the case. Their Greater Albania dreams would be realised.
"President Sejdiu will give a lesson to UNSC and to Serbia, on the vision and mission of the newest state in the world, Kosovo.
Everyone needs to pay attention, and take notes about Winds of Change.
Winds of Change = New reality + new approach."
(Winds of Change, 19 June 2008 09:57)
Yes, winds of real change, and for once, change for the better. some of these posters will never accept the new reality, no matter what, and it is a bit of a waste of time always trying to convince them. but for most freedom-loving people around the world, acceptance of independent kosov0/a is the reality. we just need to move forward, even if in fits and starts. and together. to pit ethnic groups against one another is not the way to go; it is just used by opportunists to further their power and self-interest. but hate is such a powerful force, and once it takes root, it is so hard to overcome it.
and speaking of winds of change, i do believe (or have i missed it?) that b-92 has forgotten to report about one of the most revolutionary developments in the US -- same-sex marriages are now legal and valid in california! having starting this week. we tried this several years ago, thanks to our mayor in FRISCO (gavin newsom) and many years of civil-rights struggle -- but now the California Supreme Court, by a narrow ruling, has judged these marriages valid throughout the state. it is a most amazing social justice triumph!
Of course it is possible that this will all be overturned at the ballot box this November, but that is looking less and less likely. so wish us luck! so far thousands of couples are planning to get hitched, and we are expecting a much-needed boon to the economy...
Now, getting back to my (sometimes) beloved Balkans/ex-yugoslavia: i know, from personal experience and more so from first-hand testimony, that conditions for gays and lesbians (here they say LGBT -- lesbian/gay/bi/transgender)are not exactly optimal. this is surely true in serbia, where a handful of public gatherings have been attacked by ultra-nationalist exremists, and hardly better in kosova, bosnia, and the other states. perhaps in slovenia things are different, as in so many other respects. in croatia there is some kind of organized LGBT community, though i do not exactly think its members are welcomed with open arms by the county as a whole.
so -- i recommend a 2-pronged strategy. #1-- try to organize as best as possible, building allies (esp. on the web, and i know some of this is already happening); and #2 -- if possible, come visit us in Frisco, and if you're fortunate enough to be involved in a same-sex couple, think about getting hitched there. We have no residency requirements!
true, it may not be legally recognized in your native land, but hey, it is not even recognized in my native Michigan! we all have a long, long way to go, as i have said many times. democracy is a process, lots of blood, sweat and tears, and imperfections along the way, and we (of the US) are HARdly the model of perfection! still, that doesn't mean to throw your hands up in the air, give up, give in, and embrace dictatorship, nationalist-socialism, fascism, theocracy -- they are so much worse! sometimes when i read about some of the values that the extremists in this forum promote, i could scream my fool head off: ARGGGGH! but then i remember that it takes all kinds, and that tolerance is an important value; that my reflecting back the hate and prejudice back gets us nowhere, fast.
i ask that people consider what i have written, and share/discuss it with frnds and associates.
"And if US meddling were not an issue, then the questions would be moot as Kosovo UDI would never have got off the ground."
If it wasn't for Russia's meddling in the issue Kosova would have been recognized in UNSC by now (if not a century earlier) and everyone would be dealing with more pressing issues like economics. Perhaps Serbia and Kosova would have been in EU by now.
Eh if it wasn't for those Russians!! But what do you know, you are already in the west aren't you?
And if it is the president of the SC who makes the introductions as seems likely, then the US may very well introduce Sejdiu as 'president of Kosovo'.
(peter, sydney, 19 June 2008 16:06)
Peter, correct and as the occupying force it will mean little with regard to the UN position. It is the US only expressing its occupational desires but you can be sure that is not the opinion of the overwhelming majority of UN members or the secretary general.
The true test of independence is to obtain a seat within the UN and we all know that will never happen for the K-Albanians.
Good questions on the surface, but they become problematical when you take into account that this month, presidency of UN SC rests with the US.
And if it is the president of the SC who makes the introductions as seems likely, then the US may very well introduce Sejdiu as 'president of Kosovo'. If that's the case, then one could also expect Russia & China to lodge protests regarding the form of Sejdiu's introduction.
Given the above, then my answer at least would categorically be no.
And if US meddling were not an issue, then the questions would be moot as Kosovo UDI would never have got off the ground.
Nial, - Well why dont we allow Republika Srpska, Srpska Krajina, Abkhazia, Ossetia, Tibet, Irian Jaya, Karen people, Santa Cruz, Palestine, Tamil Elam, Moluccans, Kashmir, Pays Basques, Corsica, ethnic Russians in Baltics, ethnic Hungarians in central Europe, Sorbs, Quebecois, Kurds, Western Saharans - POLISARIO and every micro or disgruntled ethnic groups to break away become independent and address the UNSC like your fake president of your fake state.
Mate, what are you trying to prove and who to?
Based on you posting current existing countries have existed since year 0. You fail to remember that Ireland became independent from Britain in early 20th century due to processes of changes. See Winds of Change.
I don’t want to dwell to much on this one but I just wanted to show your point of view from another prespective.
maybe after tomorrow the rest of the world will recognized kosova as a independent country. world will see the reality and serbs need to do the same thing.
Hey people of Serbia wake up and look forward for the future of your children, don't continue to live like this. Don't you understand that Kosova will never and ever be part of Serbia... This is a reality. Accept it before is not too late..........!!!!!!!
This is all wishful thinking by Sediju. He knows that he will not be accepted by Russia and China to speak as the president of Kosovo, only as a private citizen. Nothing can change that. Remember kiddies, Kosovo doesn't have a UN seat nor is it likley to attain one in the near, medium or long term.
He will walk away a disappointed and bitter old man when reality hits him like an anvil.
Its not just a rumor. Tomorrow you will be convinced of it.
It is the reality on the ground people.
You can accept it, or not. Your choice, but I assure you that Kosova will never be under Serbian Rule again!
To all the Albanian nationalists and dreamers out there,
If Sejdiu is NOT introduced to the UNSC chamber as the President of an indpendent Kosovo, will you finally understand that Kosovo is still NOT accepted by the international community as independent?
To all the Serbian nationalists and dreamers out there,
If Sejdiu IS introduced to the UNSC chamber as the President of an indpendent Kosovo, will you finally understand that Kosovo IS now accepted by the international community as fully independent?
It is just a propaganda by our Albanian friends out there. Kosovo is not recognized by the UNSC therefore it is not a state and UNSC knows this. I agree he should be acknowledged only as Kosovo separatist leader only.
I can't believe a rumour like this has generated so many comments. This is just an obvious fairy tale coming out of Pristina and all I can say is to keep dreaming cause it aint happening.
Rest assured, both Russia and China with the overwhelming majority of UN members see Kosovo as an intergral part of Serbia so Sejdiu will be viewed as a Serbian citizen.
To my Albanian friends - the reality is that Kosovo is occupied Serbian land and independence is not going to happen. All you have is hope and fairy tales to keep your false dream alive. With time all will be clear.
More yellow press for the consumption of the natives down Pristina way. Mr Sedjiu will never address the UNSC as 'President of Kosova' because such a state does not exist and is not recognised by the UN or 160+ sovereign countries on this planet. 'Kosova' is under international law (UN Resolution 1244, Kumanovo Agreement, Helsinki Final Act) an autonomus province of the Republic of Serbia.
"Good job Professor Sejdiu, keep working with our international partners and make sure 1224 is a thing in the past.."
(Dugi, 19 June 2008 10:25)
Sure Dugi, lets tear up any vestige of international law (thats left) which governs and and enshrines the involability of the sovereign state and replace it with nothing but anarchy, chaos and arbitrary and unilateral aggression.
Well why dont we allow Republika Srpska, Srpska Krajina, Abkhazia, Ossetia, Tibet, Irian Jaya, Karen people, Santa Cruz, Palestine, Tamil Elam, Moluccans, Kashmir, Pays Basques, Corsica, ethnic Russians in Baltics, ethnic Hungarians in central Europe, Sorbs, Quebecois, Kurds, Western Saharans - POLISARIO and every micro or disgruntled ethnic groups to break away become independent and address the UNSC like your fake president of your fake state.
What next, Mickey Mouse, President of the Prosperous and Happy Peoples Republic of Disneyland to address the UNSC.
Is this your vision for the 21st century, chaos, lawlessness and anarchy.
Can Jeremic arrange for me to address UNSC. I'm a citizen as well and I would like to do so...
How far can go Serbian politicians with their ignorance and arrogance?!
I do not get the point in this article.
How can someone establish in which capacity Mr. Sejdiu is adressing the Council and why is this important?
It is normal that on a discussion over Kosovo, a representative of the kosovar authorities/majority or whatever, is present. (since Kosovo is under UNMIK). Mr Sejdiu can adress the Council as the president of the galaxy or Mars, what is important is that there will be people from all sides talking around a table and not gun barrels.
My dear Peggy,
I can assure now that at least 10 out of 15 members of UNSC will address Mr. Fatmir Sejdiu as President of Kosova.I hope Tadic and Jeremic decide to walk out, as usual.
Day by day and more and more it is obvious difference between the results of UDI some Serbian posters pretended to present and CDI which happened in reality.
Kosovo followed steps of COORDINATED DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, and now they are harvesting its fruits...
This will raise some tensions at the UNSC. If this is all the doing of the US then its time Abkhazia, Ossetia and Republika Srpska have a referendum and split from Georgia and Bosnia.
This is true and this is the reality. V, Jeremic has been misleading its people ever since he was posted ad FM mainley for political gains, last month he did the same thing when he promised that the Kosova foreign minister Skender Hyseni will not be speaking as the foreign minister of the Republic of Kosova AND Mr. Hyseni DID SPEAK.
this is why i have always stressed the fact the serbs need a realistic approach to Kosova and to move forward with Kosova as neighbours and join the EU as soon as possible. All this bickering is really not helping anyone, and i don't think that there is any politician in serbia that believes that they can turn Kosova into Serbia ever again. MOVE ON
The sooner Serbian people accept Kosovo, the happier they will end up being, Kosovo is a reality, regardles as to how much anyone protests, what will Tadic/Jeremic do? walk out! If the dont that means they ecept Kosovo!, if they walk out even worse
Should this information prove to be accurate, it will be the first time that representatives from Serbia and Kosovo will have attended a regular session of a UN body on an equal footing.
It is always the first time for everything, I just wonder if they are going to shake hands, even though they don’t like each other.
Here you go guys, we have a voice at the security council. It will not be long before we are invited/offered a permanent place in the UN. Good job Professor Sejdiu, keep working with our international partners and make sure 1224 is a thing in the past..
The sooner Serbian people accept Kosovo, the happier they will end up being, Kosovo is a reality, regardles as to how much anyone protests, what will Tadic/Jeremic do? walk out! If the dont that means they ecept Kosovo!, if they walk out even worse
Should this information prove to be accurate, it will be the first time that representatives from Serbia and Kosovo will have attended a regular session of a UN body on an equal footing.
It is always the first time for everything, I just wonder if they are going to shake hands, even though they don’t like each other.
More yellow press for the consumption of the natives down Pristina way. Mr Sedjiu will never address the UNSC as 'President of Kosova' because such a state does not exist and is not recognised by the UN or 160+ sovereign countries on this planet. 'Kosova' is under international law (UN Resolution 1244, Kumanovo Agreement, Helsinki Final Act) an autonomus province of the Republic of Serbia.
"Good job Professor Sejdiu, keep working with our international partners and make sure 1224 is a thing in the past.."
(Dugi, 19 June 2008 10:25)
Sure Dugi, lets tear up any vestige of international law (thats left) which governs and and enshrines the involability of the sovereign state and replace it with nothing but anarchy, chaos and arbitrary and unilateral aggression.
Well why dont we allow Republika Srpska, Srpska Krajina, Abkhazia, Ossetia, Tibet, Irian Jaya, Karen people, Santa Cruz, Palestine, Tamil Elam, Moluccans, Kashmir, Pays Basques, Corsica, ethnic Russians in Baltics, ethnic Hungarians in central Europe, Sorbs, Quebecois, Kurds, Western Saharans - POLISARIO and every micro or disgruntled ethnic groups to break away become independent and address the UNSC like your fake president of your fake state.
What next, Mickey Mouse, President of the Prosperous and Happy Peoples Republic of Disneyland to address the UNSC.
Is this your vision for the 21st century, chaos, lawlessness and anarchy.
Here you go guys, we have a voice at the security council. It will not be long before we are invited/offered a permanent place in the UN. Good job Professor Sejdiu, keep working with our international partners and make sure 1224 is a thing in the past..
I can't believe a rumour like this has generated so many comments. This is just an obvious fairy tale coming out of Pristina and all I can say is to keep dreaming cause it aint happening.
Rest assured, both Russia and China with the overwhelming majority of UN members see Kosovo as an intergral part of Serbia so Sejdiu will be viewed as a Serbian citizen.
To my Albanian friends - the reality is that Kosovo is occupied Serbian land and independence is not going to happen. All you have is hope and fairy tales to keep your false dream alive. With time all will be clear.
This is true and this is the reality. V, Jeremic has been misleading its people ever since he was posted ad FM mainley for political gains, last month he did the same thing when he promised that the Kosova foreign minister Skender Hyseni will not be speaking as the foreign minister of the Republic of Kosova AND Mr. Hyseni DID SPEAK.
this is why i have always stressed the fact the serbs need a realistic approach to Kosova and to move forward with Kosova as neighbours and join the EU as soon as possible. All this bickering is really not helping anyone, and i don't think that there is any politician in serbia that believes that they can turn Kosova into Serbia ever again. MOVE ON
My dear Peggy,
I can assure now that at least 10 out of 15 members of UNSC will address Mr. Fatmir Sejdiu as President of Kosova.I hope Tadic and Jeremic decide to walk out, as usual.
It is just a propaganda by our Albanian friends out there. Kosovo is not recognized by the UNSC therefore it is not a state and UNSC knows this. I agree he should be acknowledged only as Kosovo separatist leader only.
I do not get the point in this article.
How can someone establish in which capacity Mr. Sejdiu is adressing the Council and why is this important?
It is normal that on a discussion over Kosovo, a representative of the kosovar authorities/majority or whatever, is present. (since Kosovo is under UNMIK). Mr Sejdiu can adress the Council as the president of the galaxy or Mars, what is important is that there will be people from all sides talking around a table and not gun barrels.
Its not just a rumor. Tomorrow you will be convinced of it.
It is the reality on the ground people.
You can accept it, or not. Your choice, but I assure you that Kosova will never be under Serbian Rule again!
"Mate, what are you trying to prove and who to?
Based on you posting current existing countries have existed since year 0. You fail to remember that Ireland became independent from Britain in early 20th century due to processes of changes. See Winds of Change.
I don’t want to dwell to much on this one but I just wanted to show your point of view from another prespective.
(Olf, 19 June 2008 16:17)"
Olf mate,
what I am trying to prove is that this whole sad and sorry episode and posturing by the US and its allies on behalf of the K-Albanians is in contravention of international law and threatens to undermine the very fabric that underpins world order. As we have been repeatedly seeing, the US and its allies are deliberatley flouting international law to suit their own interests irrespective of the consequences which is why 160+ countries do not recognise Pristina's UDD due to the knock on effects in their own countries and across the globe. This has the potential of opening a Pandora's box as any disgruntled ethnic group in any polity can use the Kosovo precedent to press their own claim. This has the ability to destabilise many states which is why the vast majority of the International Community refuses to recognise Kosovo's 'independence'. They believe that the Helsinki Agreement is there to prevent the unravelling of the sovereign nation state as we know it and are fighting, in spite of huge pressure from the US, to uphold international order and stability.
Sadly this all could have been avoided had the US and EU insisted on respecting Serbia territorial integrity and sovereignty by persuading the K-Albanians into meaningful talks with Belgrade. Pristina in turn should have taken up the offer from Tadic and Kostunica of substantial autonomy which would have benefited the K-Albanians immensly as they would be part of a legal entity which would have given them access to the Serbian and European job markets and not to say investment from Brussells and Belgrade. Now Pristina is left in a mess due to its legal limbo. Nobody will invest in Kosmet for obvious reasons. Due to its illegal status, it has no hope of ever getting into the UN, EU, World bank and many other affiliate organisations.
Kosmet has 2 million angry and impoverished people with nowhere to go and nothing to give. By being part of Serbia, many K-Albanians would have immediate access to the Serbian state funds enabling it to attract much needed investment. The current situation cannot last and sooner rather than later Pristina will be forced back to the table. its completely unfeasable.
Now back to Ireland.
You cannot compare Ireland to Kosovo. 2 completely different test cases as I stated back here some months ago when Mr Isufi used the East Timor analogy.
Firstly,
1. The Irish people are native to Ireland. The K-Albanians are not, having been brought in by the Ottoman Turks in the 17th century to replace the Serbs driven out after the 1689 uprising. The hundreds of churches in Kosmet many going back to the early medieval period points to a strong and established Serb presence. Besides the name 'Kosovo' is a Serbian name.
2. The Irish people are a distinct ethnic group belonging to the Celtic branch of the Indo European peoples. We have our own language & culture. There is no such thing as a Kosovar nationality, language, culture or national identity. can you explain to me just what were all those Albanian flags you were waving in Pristina.
3. In 1922 we conducted a bilateral agreement with the UK on our independence which made it legal in international law. The agreement we signed was the Anglo-Irish Treaty which came into force in 1922. We were subsequently able to join the League of Nations as an independent legal entity.
'Kosova' fails miserably on all 3 criteria. What you have in Kosmet is an attempted illegal landgrab by Serbian Albanians who forward their independence argument by being the simple majority in a southern Serbian province. However in the larger Serbian polity, the Albanians are a minority like their ethnic Hungarian, Slovak and Bosniak cohabitants. You live in Serbia so you are Serbian citizens.
This will raise some tensions at the UNSC. If this is all the doing of the US then its time Abkhazia, Ossetia and Republika Srpska have a referendum and split from Georgia and Bosnia.
Day by day and more and more it is obvious difference between the results of UDI some Serbian posters pretended to present and CDI which happened in reality.
Kosovo followed steps of COORDINATED DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, and now they are harvesting its fruits...
This is all wishful thinking by Sediju. He knows that he will not be accepted by Russia and China to speak as the president of Kosovo, only as a private citizen. Nothing can change that. Remember kiddies, Kosovo doesn't have a UN seat nor is it likley to attain one in the near, medium or long term.
He will walk away a disappointed and bitter old man when reality hits him like an anvil.
And if it is the president of the SC who makes the introductions as seems likely, then the US may very well introduce Sejdiu as 'president of Kosovo'.
(peter, sydney, 19 June 2008 16:06)
Peter, correct and as the occupying force it will mean little with regard to the UN position. It is the US only expressing its occupational desires but you can be sure that is not the opinion of the overwhelming majority of UN members or the secretary general.
The true test of independence is to obtain a seat within the UN and we all know that will never happen for the K-Albanians.
Yes miri and if it wasn't for Russian meddling, the Nazis would be ruling Europe - though I doubt the Albanians would mind if that was the case. Their Greater Albania dreams would be realised.
Can Jeremic arrange for me to address UNSC. I'm a citizen as well and I would like to do so...
How far can go Serbian politicians with their ignorance and arrogance?!
Niall D, Ireland and Kosova are much more alike than you'd like to admit:
Firstly, the Albanians are native to Kosova just as the Irish are native to Ireland. The "Ottomans replacing Serbs with Albanians" nonsense is nothing more than propaganda which is historically unjustified. The Albanians provided not only most of the warriors in the Serb-led Balkan coalition's Battle of Kosova in 1389, but they provided fierce resistance to the nucleus of the Serb state in the last millenium, as admitted by Vaso Cubrilovic, a Black Hand member part of the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
2) The Albanian people are also a distinct ethnic/linguistic Indo-European group, which are indigenous to their land. Your agument has no bearing on the "Kosovar identity," as this is a new, multi-ethnic identity. In Albanian history, Kosovar was a regional identity as part of the greater Albanian identity; however, in the 21st century, it's time to turn Kosova into a multi-ethnic and democratic state, where a new civil identity is to be formed.
3) After how many rebellions against the English did the final agreement result? The Irish have rebelled against the English for centuries, culminating in their eventual independence. It has been the same with the Albanians in Kosova. Right now Serbia does not recognize it, but in the future (no matter how long it takes), they will eventually learn to move forward (I hope). Plus, the desire to partition Mitrovica sounds similar to the entrenchment of the British in Northern Ireland, no?
The people of Kosova live in the newest European state, freed from Serbian rule once and for all. It cannot be undone, and it will not be undone. It is time for the people of Serbia to accept the reality and move towards good relations with their neighbors, so that everyone can profit and live peacefully in a stable Balkans.
maybe after tomorrow the rest of the world will recognized kosova as a independent country. world will see the reality and serbs need to do the same thing.
Nial, - Well why dont we allow Republika Srpska, Srpska Krajina, Abkhazia, Ossetia, Tibet, Irian Jaya, Karen people, Santa Cruz, Palestine, Tamil Elam, Moluccans, Kashmir, Pays Basques, Corsica, ethnic Russians in Baltics, ethnic Hungarians in central Europe, Sorbs, Quebecois, Kurds, Western Saharans - POLISARIO and every micro or disgruntled ethnic groups to break away become independent and address the UNSC like your fake president of your fake state.
Mate, what are you trying to prove and who to?
Based on you posting current existing countries have existed since year 0. You fail to remember that Ireland became independent from Britain in early 20th century due to processes of changes. See Winds of Change.
I don’t want to dwell to much on this one but I just wanted to show your point of view from another prespective.
Firstly, please understand that I have written my username as "Shqype," and I appreciate the general respect of having it written the same way when you refer to me.
You are correct in stating that "Kosovo is not a race." I do know it. There is only one race: the HUMAN race.
Albanian Kosovars speak Albanian, Serbian Kosovars speak Serbian, Montenegrin Kosovars speak Montenegrin, Turkish Kosovars speak Turkish, etc. All the people of Kosova have two identities: an ethnic identity and a civil identity. It is the same way here in the United States. Born in New York, I am a US citizen. Born to ethnically Albanian parents, I am an ethnic Albanian. Because the new Kosovar identity is a civil identity (just like the American identity, which was formed from immigrants of various ethnicities from around the world), one can be Albanian and Kosovar, Serbian and Kosovar, etc.
The nation of Ireland is one based on an ethnic identity, NOT a civil identity, whereas the nation of Kosova (like that of America) is one based on a civil identity rather than an ethnic identity.
Again, Albanians, Serbs, Africans, Chinese, and others are all part of the HUMAN race. Albanian Kosovars and Albanians from Albania proper both belong to the same Albanian ethnicity. But the new European nation of Kosova is one founded not on the basis of homogeneous ethnicity (like Ireland), but rather a new civil identity based on the values of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in a multi-ethnic, democratic society.
Hey people of Serbia wake up and look forward for the future of your children, don't continue to live like this. Don't you understand that Kosova will never and ever be part of Serbia... This is a reality. Accept it before is not too late..........!!!!!!!
Good questions on the surface, but they become problematical when you take into account that this month, presidency of UN SC rests with the US.
And if it is the president of the SC who makes the introductions as seems likely, then the US may very well introduce Sejdiu as 'president of Kosovo'. If that's the case, then one could also expect Russia & China to lodge protests regarding the form of Sejdiu's introduction.
Given the above, then my answer at least would categorically be no.
And if US meddling were not an issue, then the questions would be moot as Kosovo UDI would never have got off the ground.
"And if US meddling were not an issue, then the questions would be moot as Kosovo UDI would never have got off the ground."
If it wasn't for Russia's meddling in the issue Kosova would have been recognized in UNSC by now (if not a century earlier) and everyone would be dealing with more pressing issues like economics. Perhaps Serbia and Kosova would have been in EU by now.
Eh if it wasn't for those Russians!! But what do you know, you are already in the west aren't you?
Willie, the UN does not recognise Kosovo - fact - so if the US decide to refer to Sejdiu as president of Kosovo then they are obviously not representing the UN but rather their own occupation.
Just like raising the flag in the EP, I see it more as a sign of frustration more than anything else.
Just like Peter Feith and all his fairy tales about the EU mission ruling all of Kosovo and Serbians is a sign of frustration. The EU mission has failed.
It makes no difference to the situation on the ground except for Albanian entertainment. They love to listen to fairy tales and love all of these theatrics. It gives hope to their false dream and keeps them pacified.
Otherwise they'd be out there burning churches and causing death and destruction like the past. They even warned of such consequences if they did not get their way.
Let them believe I say. It only works in isolation so that is the way it must be. The Albanians are detached.
"But the new European nation of Kosova is one founded not on the basis of homogeneous ethnicity (like Ireland), but rather a new civil identity based on the values of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in a multi-ethnic, democratic society."
(Mark (Shqype), 20 June 2008 15:22)
I'm not so sure you can refer to the so called 'nation' of Kosovo as civil, based on the values of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness as well as multi-ethnic and democratic when the actions of the Kosovo Albanians contradict exactly what you wrote (see B92 article today regarding the stopping of an ambulance as well as the previous incidents of denying medical aid -- oh, and not to mention the barbed wire enclaves that the privileged Serb minority get to enjoy).
Also, when you say that Ireland was founded on the basis of homogeneous ethnicity, there can be many arguments made that this is exactly what has been attempted by the Kosovo Albanians.
I think it's worth rethinking your analysis when you paint Kosovo as a wonderland (or is it Disneyland?)
First of all Kosovo is not a race and you know it. What language do Kosovar speak?
Why are you referred to as K-Albanians or K-Serbs if you have your own identity.
If you speak Albanian then you are Albanian. Do you have a separate language from Albania? NO.
Irish are a separate race to the English. They have their own language and identity. You have brought your over from Albania.
Stop making up all this nonesense.
If you are indeed a different race from Albania then show us how.
To all the Albanian nationalists and dreamers out there,
If Sejdiu is NOT introduced to the UNSC chamber as the President of an indpendent Kosovo, will you finally understand that Kosovo is still NOT accepted by the international community as independent?
To all the Serbian nationalists and dreamers out there,
If Sejdiu IS introduced to the UNSC chamber as the President of an indpendent Kosovo, will you finally understand that Kosovo IS now accepted by the international community as fully independent?
Mark Shqype, with your logic we can certainly carve up California and call it The New Republic of California.
Californians are Californians because of their geographical location, yes?
But there is no such ethnic race as Californains.
Why can't we carve up every state in America now and call it a separate country?
Texans will be Texans too.
Regions are not countries and therefore cannot produce those nationalities.
Kosovo is a part of Serbia and there is no such nationality as Kosovars.
"President Sejdiu will give a lesson to UNSC and to Serbia, on the vision and mission of the newest state in the world, Kosovo.
Everyone needs to pay attention, and take notes about Winds of Change.
Winds of Change = New reality + new approach."
(Winds of Change, 19 June 2008 09:57)
Yes, winds of real change, and for once, change for the better. some of these posters will never accept the new reality, no matter what, and it is a bit of a waste of time always trying to convince them. but for most freedom-loving people around the world, acceptance of independent kosov0/a is the reality. we just need to move forward, even if in fits and starts. and together. to pit ethnic groups against one another is not the way to go; it is just used by opportunists to further their power and self-interest. but hate is such a powerful force, and once it takes root, it is so hard to overcome it.
and speaking of winds of change, i do believe (or have i missed it?) that b-92 has forgotten to report about one of the most revolutionary developments in the US -- same-sex marriages are now legal and valid in california! having starting this week. we tried this several years ago, thanks to our mayor in FRISCO (gavin newsom) and many years of civil-rights struggle -- but now the California Supreme Court, by a narrow ruling, has judged these marriages valid throughout the state. it is a most amazing social justice triumph!
Of course it is possible that this will all be overturned at the ballot box this November, but that is looking less and less likely. so wish us luck! so far thousands of couples are planning to get hitched, and we are expecting a much-needed boon to the economy...
Now, getting back to my (sometimes) beloved Balkans/ex-yugoslavia: i know, from personal experience and more so from first-hand testimony, that conditions for gays and lesbians (here they say LGBT -- lesbian/gay/bi/transgender)are not exactly optimal. this is surely true in serbia, where a handful of public gatherings have been attacked by ultra-nationalist exremists, and hardly better in kosova, bosnia, and the other states. perhaps in slovenia things are different, as in so many other respects. in croatia there is some kind of organized LGBT community, though i do not exactly think its members are welcomed with open arms by the county as a whole.
so -- i recommend a 2-pronged strategy. #1-- try to organize as best as possible, building allies (esp. on the web, and i know some of this is already happening); and #2 -- if possible, come visit us in Frisco, and if you're fortunate enough to be involved in a same-sex couple, think about getting hitched there. We have no residency requirements!
true, it may not be legally recognized in your native land, but hey, it is not even recognized in my native Michigan! we all have a long, long way to go, as i have said many times. democracy is a process, lots of blood, sweat and tears, and imperfections along the way, and we (of the US) are HARdly the model of perfection! still, that doesn't mean to throw your hands up in the air, give up, give in, and embrace dictatorship, nationalist-socialism, fascism, theocracy -- they are so much worse! sometimes when i read about some of the values that the extremists in this forum promote, i could scream my fool head off: ARGGGGH! but then i remember that it takes all kinds, and that tolerance is an important value; that my reflecting back the hate and prejudice back gets us nowhere, fast.
i ask that people consider what i have written, and share/discuss it with frnds and associates.
You sound like you support the Serbian nationalist cause and have already convinced yourself of the bad news. So, in advance, you're already started to make excuses why you should delude yourself of reality.
If the US goes all maverick in the UNSC chamber, and breaches established protocol, then it will act in Serbia's favour. Why? Because the 150ish member states that have NOT accepted Kosovo independence will likely dig their heels in at US bully-boy tactics.
But don't forget my second question. No doubt you will be rejoicing from the rooftops if Sejdiu is not introduced as President of sovereign Kosovo as proof of something or other.
You can't have it both ways. Either this is, or is not, a defining moment.
I have a question to all you who (Kate, Peggy, ZK UK, Niall O’Doherty put into question if Mr. Fatmir Sejdiu is the President of Kosovo and if he will be addressed as such at UNSC. Who organized elections when Mr. Sejdiu was elected for the President of Kosovo and when? This position, as such, has been internationally/legally recognized ever since Mr. Rugova was the President.
Maybe you should put into question if he will be addressed as President of the independent and sovereign Kosovo. In my opinion these are two different things.
If we talk about majority at UNSC, then this majority is on Kosovo’s side, but as we all know decisions in the UNSC are not brought by majority, but rather by consensus.
Dear Niall D’Oherty read this article which appeared on the Guardian on February 26, 2008. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/26/kosovo.serbia
I’m sure you know all these things and much more related things; it’s just that you want to make history as it suits you and your claims.
miri:
> Eh if it wasn't for those Russians!! But what do you know, you are already in the west aren't you?
Well technically, am in the east.
Willie Garvin:
Your original post (#21) posed an 'impartial' question to both sides based around the idea that 'defacto recognition by the UN' is implied by an introduction of Sejdiu as the 'president of Kosovo'.
I had a good look at it & gave my answer in post #24 in which I put forward a theory that the US might try to 'unilaterally impose' such an introduction using its capacity as current president of the UN SC, in order to further its own case for recognition of 'the republic of Kosovo'.
In your response (post #33), after taking out all the colourful & 'not so impartial' rhetoric, only thing of substance was your belief that the US would not do so as it might alienate non-aligned UN member states.
My theory however is based on the track record of George W Bush's presidency with regard to 'unilateral actions' all over the world, & by association therefore - the protocols & procedures of the UN.
It is based on the prevalent attitude in the 'white house' that it can act with impunity in whatever it does, & 'spin' away the consequences.
You may believe otherwise. You are free to do so.
I do not.
Pz:
UNMIK was charged with the approval & oversight for all elections held in Kosovo, as well as 'keeping the peace'. When K-albanians went ahead with their plans for independence by initiating elections, UN had to choose between maintaining stability & upholding the letter of the law.
UN chose the latter.
Just as they chose when serbs went ahead with their elections in opposition to the UDI not so long ago - in the process overruling ex-UNMIK chief & EU puppet, Joachim Ruecker.
Internationally/legally recognised by whom?
The majority of the current UN SC? Quite possibly but veto's make it irrelevant.
The majority of UN members? No.
As for a title, truly fair one for Sejdiu is leader of K-albanians in Kosovo.
If UNMIK was in charge with the approval & oversight for all elections held in Kosovo, including the one when Mr. Fatmir Sejdiu was elected, then it was legally recognized by the authority under which UNMIK functioned and approved those elections at the time. In this case it is UNSC, i.e. US, UK, France, Russia and China.
I think I was clear with the majority thing in UNSC, “If we talk about majority at UNSC, then this majority is on Kosovo’s side, but as we all know decisions in the UNSC are not brought by majority, but rather by consensus.”
Willie Garvin:
> I have no bias on whether Kosovo should be part of Serbia or independent in respect of nationalist tendencies.
Read my last post again 'Willie Garvin', as I never said you did. Bias I was referring to was not towards one side or the other. Bias I was referring to was that against nationalists (from either side I presume) such as myself voicing their opinion as evidenced by the following:
> You sound like you support the Serbian nationalist cause and have already convinced yourself of the bad news. So, in advance, you're already started to make excuses why you should delude yourself of reality.
> But don't forget my second question. No doubt you will be rejoicing from the rooftops if Sejdiu is not introduced as President of sovereign Kosovo as proof of something or other.
All I did was put forward a theory which was heavily qualified. Turned out to be wrong. C'est la vie. Pristina media report it was based on also turned out to be wrong.
So here's a couple of points for you to remember -
Not all nationalists are extremists,
The message, not the messenger.
Pz:
You seem to have missed the point I was making.
Just because the UN allowed K-albanian elections to go through, does not imply legal recognition. UN is primarily concerned with maintaining the peace. Blocking elections (of either side) would've lead to instability, or outright violence. So they did not do it.
In Australia, in some cases, police elect to not pursue some suspects. They do so due to public safety concerns. Breaking off the pursuit does not make suspects actions retrospectively legal, as if caught later, will still be arrested - just as allowing elections to proceed does not imply retrospective legal recognition of UDI.
I have no bias on whether Kosovo should be part of Serbia or independent in respect of nationalist tendencies. I have a major issue with the manner in which the process is being conducted and fear of the consequences.
Nevertheless, I'm not the least surprised by your reaction to criticism: 'must be playing for the other side!'
I have not seen the full transcript of the UNSC meeting, but there is NO indication that anybody introduced Sejdiu as President of a sovereign and independent state.
Nevertheless, the part of the meeting that has been made public, Ban Ki-moon's address, shows significant movement towards Kosovo statehood. And frankly it's a worry.
Here you go guys, we have a voice at the security council. It will not be long before we are invited/offered a permanent place in the UN. Good job Professor Sejdiu, keep working with our international partners and make sure 1224 is a thing in the past..
This is true and this is the reality. V, Jeremic has been misleading its people ever since he was posted ad FM mainley for political gains, last month he did the same thing when he promised that the Kosova foreign minister Skender Hyseni will not be speaking as the foreign minister of the Republic of Kosova AND Mr. Hyseni DID SPEAK.
this is why i have always stressed the fact the serbs need a realistic approach to Kosova and to move forward with Kosova as neighbours and join the EU as soon as possible. All this bickering is really not helping anyone, and i don't think that there is any politician in serbia that believes that they can turn Kosova into Serbia ever again. MOVE ON
The sooner Serbian people accept Kosovo, the happier they will end up being, Kosovo is a reality, regardles as to how much anyone protests, what will Tadic/Jeremic do? walk out! If the dont that means they ecept Kosovo!, if they walk out even worse
Day by day and more and more it is obvious difference between the results of UDI some Serbian posters pretended to present and CDI which happened in reality.
Kosovo followed steps of COORDINATED DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, and now they are harvesting its fruits...
Its not just a rumor. Tomorrow you will be convinced of it.
It is the reality on the ground people.
You can accept it, or not. Your choice, but I assure you that Kosova will never be under Serbian Rule again!
Should this information prove to be accurate, it will be the first time that representatives from Serbia and Kosovo will have attended a regular session of a UN body on an equal footing.
It is always the first time for everything, I just wonder if they are going to shake hands, even though they don’t like each other.
My dear Peggy,
I can assure now that at least 10 out of 15 members of UNSC will address Mr. Fatmir Sejdiu as President of Kosova.I hope Tadic and Jeremic decide to walk out, as usual.
maybe after tomorrow the rest of the world will recognized kosova as a independent country. world will see the reality and serbs need to do the same thing.
Nial, - Well why dont we allow Republika Srpska, Srpska Krajina, Abkhazia, Ossetia, Tibet, Irian Jaya, Karen people, Santa Cruz, Palestine, Tamil Elam, Moluccans, Kashmir, Pays Basques, Corsica, ethnic Russians in Baltics, ethnic Hungarians in central Europe, Sorbs, Quebecois, Kurds, Western Saharans - POLISARIO and every micro or disgruntled ethnic groups to break away become independent and address the UNSC like your fake president of your fake state.
Mate, what are you trying to prove and who to?
Based on you posting current existing countries have existed since year 0. You fail to remember that Ireland became independent from Britain in early 20th century due to processes of changes. See Winds of Change.
I don’t want to dwell to much on this one but I just wanted to show your point of view from another prespective.
Hey people of Serbia wake up and look forward for the future of your children, don't continue to live like this. Don't you understand that Kosova will never and ever be part of Serbia... This is a reality. Accept it before is not too late..........!!!!!!!
"Mate, what are you trying to prove and who to?
Based on you posting current existing countries have existed since year 0. You fail to remember that Ireland became independent from Britain in early 20th century due to processes of changes. See Winds of Change.
I don’t want to dwell to much on this one but I just wanted to show your point of view from another prespective.
(Olf, 19 June 2008 16:17)"
Olf mate,
what I am trying to prove is that this whole sad and sorry episode and posturing by the US and its allies on behalf of the K-Albanians is in contravention of international law and threatens to undermine the very fabric that underpins world order. As we have been repeatedly seeing, the US and its allies are deliberatley flouting international law to suit their own interests irrespective of the consequences which is why 160+ countries do not recognise Pristina's UDD due to the knock on effects in their own countries and across the globe. This has the potential of opening a Pandora's box as any disgruntled ethnic group in any polity can use the Kosovo precedent to press their own claim. This has the ability to destabilise many states which is why the vast majority of the International Community refuses to recognise Kosovo's 'independence'. They believe that the Helsinki Agreement is there to prevent the unravelling of the sovereign nation state as we know it and are fighting, in spite of huge pressure from the US, to uphold international order and stability.
Sadly this all could have been avoided had the US and EU insisted on respecting Serbia territorial integrity and sovereignty by persuading the K-Albanians into meaningful talks with Belgrade. Pristina in turn should have taken up the offer from Tadic and Kostunica of substantial autonomy which would have benefited the K-Albanians immensly as they would be part of a legal entity which would have given them access to the Serbian and European job markets and not to say investment from Brussells and Belgrade. Now Pristina is left in a mess due to its legal limbo. Nobody will invest in Kosmet for obvious reasons. Due to its illegal status, it has no hope of ever getting into the UN, EU, World bank and many other affiliate organisations.
Kosmet has 2 million angry and impoverished people with nowhere to go and nothing to give. By being part of Serbia, many K-Albanians would have immediate access to the Serbian state funds enabling it to attract much needed investment. The current situation cannot last and sooner rather than later Pristina will be forced back to the table. its completely unfeasable.
Now back to Ireland.
You cannot compare Ireland to Kosovo. 2 completely different test cases as I stated back here some months ago when Mr Isufi used the East Timor analogy.
Firstly,
1. The Irish people are native to Ireland. The K-Albanians are not, having been brought in by the Ottoman Turks in the 17th century to replace the Serbs driven out after the 1689 uprising. The hundreds of churches in Kosmet many going back to the early medieval period points to a strong and established Serb presence. Besides the name 'Kosovo' is a Serbian name.
2. The Irish people are a distinct ethnic group belonging to the Celtic branch of the Indo European peoples. We have our own language & culture. There is no such thing as a Kosovar nationality, language, culture or national identity. can you explain to me just what were all those Albanian flags you were waving in Pristina.
3. In 1922 we conducted a bilateral agreement with the UK on our independence which made it legal in international law. The agreement we signed was the Anglo-Irish Treaty which came into force in 1922. We were subsequently able to join the League of Nations as an independent legal entity.
'Kosova' fails miserably on all 3 criteria. What you have in Kosmet is an attempted illegal landgrab by Serbian Albanians who forward their independence argument by being the simple majority in a southern Serbian province. However in the larger Serbian polity, the Albanians are a minority like their ethnic Hungarian, Slovak and Bosniak cohabitants. You live in Serbia so you are Serbian citizens.
This is all wishful thinking by Sediju. He knows that he will not be accepted by Russia and China to speak as the president of Kosovo, only as a private citizen. Nothing can change that. Remember kiddies, Kosovo doesn't have a UN seat nor is it likley to attain one in the near, medium or long term.
He will walk away a disappointed and bitter old man when reality hits him like an anvil.
Niall D, Ireland and Kosova are much more alike than you'd like to admit:
Firstly, the Albanians are native to Kosova just as the Irish are native to Ireland. The "Ottomans replacing Serbs with Albanians" nonsense is nothing more than propaganda which is historically unjustified. The Albanians provided not only most of the warriors in the Serb-led Balkan coalition's Battle of Kosova in 1389, but they provided fierce resistance to the nucleus of the Serb state in the last millenium, as admitted by Vaso Cubrilovic, a Black Hand member part of the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
2) The Albanian people are also a distinct ethnic/linguistic Indo-European group, which are indigenous to their land. Your agument has no bearing on the "Kosovar identity," as this is a new, multi-ethnic identity. In Albanian history, Kosovar was a regional identity as part of the greater Albanian identity; however, in the 21st century, it's time to turn Kosova into a multi-ethnic and democratic state, where a new civil identity is to be formed.
3) After how many rebellions against the English did the final agreement result? The Irish have rebelled against the English for centuries, culminating in their eventual independence. It has been the same with the Albanians in Kosova. Right now Serbia does not recognize it, but in the future (no matter how long it takes), they will eventually learn to move forward (I hope). Plus, the desire to partition Mitrovica sounds similar to the entrenchment of the British in Northern Ireland, no?
The people of Kosova live in the newest European state, freed from Serbian rule once and for all. It cannot be undone, and it will not be undone. It is time for the people of Serbia to accept the reality and move towards good relations with their neighbors, so that everyone can profit and live peacefully in a stable Balkans.
This will raise some tensions at the UNSC. If this is all the doing of the US then its time Abkhazia, Ossetia and Republika Srpska have a referendum and split from Georgia and Bosnia.
Can Jeremic arrange for me to address UNSC. I'm a citizen as well and I would like to do so...
How far can go Serbian politicians with their ignorance and arrogance?!
I can't believe a rumour like this has generated so many comments. This is just an obvious fairy tale coming out of Pristina and all I can say is to keep dreaming cause it aint happening.
Rest assured, both Russia and China with the overwhelming majority of UN members see Kosovo as an intergral part of Serbia so Sejdiu will be viewed as a Serbian citizen.
To my Albanian friends - the reality is that Kosovo is occupied Serbian land and independence is not going to happen. All you have is hope and fairy tales to keep your false dream alive. With time all will be clear.
More yellow press for the consumption of the natives down Pristina way. Mr Sedjiu will never address the UNSC as 'President of Kosova' because such a state does not exist and is not recognised by the UN or 160+ sovereign countries on this planet. 'Kosova' is under international law (UN Resolution 1244, Kumanovo Agreement, Helsinki Final Act) an autonomus province of the Republic of Serbia.
"Good job Professor Sejdiu, keep working with our international partners and make sure 1224 is a thing in the past.."
(Dugi, 19 June 2008 10:25)
Sure Dugi, lets tear up any vestige of international law (thats left) which governs and and enshrines the involability of the sovereign state and replace it with nothing but anarchy, chaos and arbitrary and unilateral aggression.
Well why dont we allow Republika Srpska, Srpska Krajina, Abkhazia, Ossetia, Tibet, Irian Jaya, Karen people, Santa Cruz, Palestine, Tamil Elam, Moluccans, Kashmir, Pays Basques, Corsica, ethnic Russians in Baltics, ethnic Hungarians in central Europe, Sorbs, Quebecois, Kurds, Western Saharans - POLISARIO and every micro or disgruntled ethnic groups to break away become independent and address the UNSC like your fake president of your fake state.
What next, Mickey Mouse, President of the Prosperous and Happy Peoples Republic of Disneyland to address the UNSC.
Is this your vision for the 21st century, chaos, lawlessness and anarchy.
"And if US meddling were not an issue, then the questions would be moot as Kosovo UDI would never have got off the ground."
If it wasn't for Russia's meddling in the issue Kosova would have been recognized in UNSC by now (if not a century earlier) and everyone would be dealing with more pressing issues like economics. Perhaps Serbia and Kosova would have been in EU by now.
Eh if it wasn't for those Russians!! But what do you know, you are already in the west aren't you?
"President Sejdiu will give a lesson to UNSC and to Serbia, on the vision and mission of the newest state in the world, Kosovo.
Everyone needs to pay attention, and take notes about Winds of Change.
Winds of Change = New reality + new approach."
(Winds of Change, 19 June 2008 09:57)
Yes, winds of real change, and for once, change for the better. some of these posters will never accept the new reality, no matter what, and it is a bit of a waste of time always trying to convince them. but for most freedom-loving people around the world, acceptance of independent kosov0/a is the reality. we just need to move forward, even if in fits and starts. and together. to pit ethnic groups against one another is not the way to go; it is just used by opportunists to further their power and self-interest. but hate is such a powerful force, and once it takes root, it is so hard to overcome it.
and speaking of winds of change, i do believe (or have i missed it?) that b-92 has forgotten to report about one of the most revolutionary developments in the US -- same-sex marriages are now legal and valid in california! having starting this week. we tried this several years ago, thanks to our mayor in FRISCO (gavin newsom) and many years of civil-rights struggle -- but now the California Supreme Court, by a narrow ruling, has judged these marriages valid throughout the state. it is a most amazing social justice triumph!
Of course it is possible that this will all be overturned at the ballot box this November, but that is looking less and less likely. so wish us luck! so far thousands of couples are planning to get hitched, and we are expecting a much-needed boon to the economy...
Now, getting back to my (sometimes) beloved Balkans/ex-yugoslavia: i know, from personal experience and more so from first-hand testimony, that conditions for gays and lesbians (here they say LGBT -- lesbian/gay/bi/transgender)are not exactly optimal. this is surely true in serbia, where a handful of public gatherings have been attacked by ultra-nationalist exremists, and hardly better in kosova, bosnia, and the other states. perhaps in slovenia things are different, as in so many other respects. in croatia there is some kind of organized LGBT community, though i do not exactly think its members are welcomed with open arms by the county as a whole.
so -- i recommend a 2-pronged strategy. #1-- try to organize as best as possible, building allies (esp. on the web, and i know some of this is already happening); and #2 -- if possible, come visit us in Frisco, and if you're fortunate enough to be involved in a same-sex couple, think about getting hitched there. We have no residency requirements!
true, it may not be legally recognized in your native land, but hey, it is not even recognized in my native Michigan! we all have a long, long way to go, as i have said many times. democracy is a process, lots of blood, sweat and tears, and imperfections along the way, and we (of the US) are HARdly the model of perfection! still, that doesn't mean to throw your hands up in the air, give up, give in, and embrace dictatorship, nationalist-socialism, fascism, theocracy -- they are so much worse! sometimes when i read about some of the values that the extremists in this forum promote, i could scream my fool head off: ARGGGGH! but then i remember that it takes all kinds, and that tolerance is an important value; that my reflecting back the hate and prejudice back gets us nowhere, fast.
i ask that people consider what i have written, and share/discuss it with frnds and associates.
To all the Albanian nationalists and dreamers out there,
If Sejdiu is NOT introduced to the UNSC chamber as the President of an indpendent Kosovo, will you finally understand that Kosovo is still NOT accepted by the international community as independent?
To all the Serbian nationalists and dreamers out there,
If Sejdiu IS introduced to the UNSC chamber as the President of an indpendent Kosovo, will you finally understand that Kosovo IS now accepted by the international community as fully independent?
Firstly, please understand that I have written my username as "Shqype," and I appreciate the general respect of having it written the same way when you refer to me.
You are correct in stating that "Kosovo is not a race." I do know it. There is only one race: the HUMAN race.
Albanian Kosovars speak Albanian, Serbian Kosovars speak Serbian, Montenegrin Kosovars speak Montenegrin, Turkish Kosovars speak Turkish, etc. All the people of Kosova have two identities: an ethnic identity and a civil identity. It is the same way here in the United States. Born in New York, I am a US citizen. Born to ethnically Albanian parents, I am an ethnic Albanian. Because the new Kosovar identity is a civil identity (just like the American identity, which was formed from immigrants of various ethnicities from around the world), one can be Albanian and Kosovar, Serbian and Kosovar, etc.
The nation of Ireland is one based on an ethnic identity, NOT a civil identity, whereas the nation of Kosova (like that of America) is one based on a civil identity rather than an ethnic identity.
Again, Albanians, Serbs, Africans, Chinese, and others are all part of the HUMAN race. Albanian Kosovars and Albanians from Albania proper both belong to the same Albanian ethnicity. But the new European nation of Kosova is one founded not on the basis of homogeneous ethnicity (like Ireland), but rather a new civil identity based on the values of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in a multi-ethnic, democratic society.
It is just a propaganda by our Albanian friends out there. Kosovo is not recognized by the UNSC therefore it is not a state and UNSC knows this. I agree he should be acknowledged only as Kosovo separatist leader only.
Good questions on the surface, but they become problematical when you take into account that this month, presidency of UN SC rests with the US.
And if it is the president of the SC who makes the introductions as seems likely, then the US may very well introduce Sejdiu as 'president of Kosovo'. If that's the case, then one could also expect Russia & China to lodge protests regarding the form of Sejdiu's introduction.
Given the above, then my answer at least would categorically be no.
And if US meddling were not an issue, then the questions would be moot as Kosovo UDI would never have got off the ground.
And if it is the president of the SC who makes the introductions as seems likely, then the US may very well introduce Sejdiu as 'president of Kosovo'.
(peter, sydney, 19 June 2008 16:06)
Peter, correct and as the occupying force it will mean little with regard to the UN position. It is the US only expressing its occupational desires but you can be sure that is not the opinion of the overwhelming majority of UN members or the secretary general.
The true test of independence is to obtain a seat within the UN and we all know that will never happen for the K-Albanians.
Yes miri and if it wasn't for Russian meddling, the Nazis would be ruling Europe - though I doubt the Albanians would mind if that was the case. Their Greater Albania dreams would be realised.
Willie, the UN does not recognise Kosovo - fact - so if the US decide to refer to Sejdiu as president of Kosovo then they are obviously not representing the UN but rather their own occupation.
Just like raising the flag in the EP, I see it more as a sign of frustration more than anything else.
Just like Peter Feith and all his fairy tales about the EU mission ruling all of Kosovo and Serbians is a sign of frustration. The EU mission has failed.
It makes no difference to the situation on the ground except for Albanian entertainment. They love to listen to fairy tales and love all of these theatrics. It gives hope to their false dream and keeps them pacified.
Otherwise they'd be out there burning churches and causing death and destruction like the past. They even warned of such consequences if they did not get their way.
Let them believe I say. It only works in isolation so that is the way it must be. The Albanians are detached.
If UNMIK was in charge with the approval & oversight for all elections held in Kosovo, including the one when Mr. Fatmir Sejdiu was elected, then it was legally recognized by the authority under which UNMIK functioned and approved those elections at the time. In this case it is UNSC, i.e. US, UK, France, Russia and China.
I think I was clear with the majority thing in UNSC, “If we talk about majority at UNSC, then this majority is on Kosovo’s side, but as we all know decisions in the UNSC are not brought by majority, but rather by consensus.”
You sound like you support the Serbian nationalist cause and have already convinced yourself of the bad news. So, in advance, you're already started to make excuses why you should delude yourself of reality.
If the US goes all maverick in the UNSC chamber, and breaches established protocol, then it will act in Serbia's favour. Why? Because the 150ish member states that have NOT accepted Kosovo independence will likely dig their heels in at US bully-boy tactics.
But don't forget my second question. No doubt you will be rejoicing from the rooftops if Sejdiu is not introduced as President of sovereign Kosovo as proof of something or other.
You can't have it both ways. Either this is, or is not, a defining moment.
I have a question to all you who (Kate, Peggy, ZK UK, Niall O’Doherty put into question if Mr. Fatmir Sejdiu is the President of Kosovo and if he will be addressed as such at UNSC. Who organized elections when Mr. Sejdiu was elected for the President of Kosovo and when? This position, as such, has been internationally/legally recognized ever since Mr. Rugova was the President.
Maybe you should put into question if he will be addressed as President of the independent and sovereign Kosovo. In my opinion these are two different things.
If we talk about majority at UNSC, then this majority is on Kosovo’s side, but as we all know decisions in the UNSC are not brought by majority, but rather by consensus.
Dear Niall D’Oherty read this article which appeared on the Guardian on February 26, 2008. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/26/kosovo.serbia
I’m sure you know all these things and much more related things; it’s just that you want to make history as it suits you and your claims.
miri:
> Eh if it wasn't for those Russians!! But what do you know, you are already in the west aren't you?
Well technically, am in the east.
Willie Garvin:
Your original post (#21) posed an 'impartial' question to both sides based around the idea that 'defacto recognition by the UN' is implied by an introduction of Sejdiu as the 'president of Kosovo'.
I had a good look at it & gave my answer in post #24 in which I put forward a theory that the US might try to 'unilaterally impose' such an introduction using its capacity as current president of the UN SC, in order to further its own case for recognition of 'the republic of Kosovo'.
In your response (post #33), after taking out all the colourful & 'not so impartial' rhetoric, only thing of substance was your belief that the US would not do so as it might alienate non-aligned UN member states.
My theory however is based on the track record of George W Bush's presidency with regard to 'unilateral actions' all over the world, & by association therefore - the protocols & procedures of the UN.
It is based on the prevalent attitude in the 'white house' that it can act with impunity in whatever it does, & 'spin' away the consequences.
You may believe otherwise. You are free to do so.
I do not.
Pz:
UNMIK was charged with the approval & oversight for all elections held in Kosovo, as well as 'keeping the peace'. When K-albanians went ahead with their plans for independence by initiating elections, UN had to choose between maintaining stability & upholding the letter of the law.
UN chose the latter.
Just as they chose when serbs went ahead with their elections in opposition to the UDI not so long ago - in the process overruling ex-UNMIK chief & EU puppet, Joachim Ruecker.
Internationally/legally recognised by whom?
The majority of the current UN SC? Quite possibly but veto's make it irrelevant.
The majority of UN members? No.
As for a title, truly fair one for Sejdiu is leader of K-albanians in Kosovo.
"But the new European nation of Kosova is one founded not on the basis of homogeneous ethnicity (like Ireland), but rather a new civil identity based on the values of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in a multi-ethnic, democratic society."
(Mark (Shqype), 20 June 2008 15:22)
I'm not so sure you can refer to the so called 'nation' of Kosovo as civil, based on the values of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness as well as multi-ethnic and democratic when the actions of the Kosovo Albanians contradict exactly what you wrote (see B92 article today regarding the stopping of an ambulance as well as the previous incidents of denying medical aid -- oh, and not to mention the barbed wire enclaves that the privileged Serb minority get to enjoy).
Also, when you say that Ireland was founded on the basis of homogeneous ethnicity, there can be many arguments made that this is exactly what has been attempted by the Kosovo Albanians.
I think it's worth rethinking your analysis when you paint Kosovo as a wonderland (or is it Disneyland?)
I have no bias on whether Kosovo should be part of Serbia or independent in respect of nationalist tendencies. I have a major issue with the manner in which the process is being conducted and fear of the consequences.
Nevertheless, I'm not the least surprised by your reaction to criticism: 'must be playing for the other side!'
I have not seen the full transcript of the UNSC meeting, but there is NO indication that anybody introduced Sejdiu as President of a sovereign and independent state.
Nevertheless, the part of the meeting that has been made public, Ban Ki-moon's address, shows significant movement towards Kosovo statehood. And frankly it's a worry.
I do not get the point in this article.
How can someone establish in which capacity Mr. Sejdiu is adressing the Council and why is this important?
It is normal that on a discussion over Kosovo, a representative of the kosovar authorities/majority or whatever, is present. (since Kosovo is under UNMIK). Mr Sejdiu can adress the Council as the president of the galaxy or Mars, what is important is that there will be people from all sides talking around a table and not gun barrels.
First of all Kosovo is not a race and you know it. What language do Kosovar speak?
Why are you referred to as K-Albanians or K-Serbs if you have your own identity.
If you speak Albanian then you are Albanian. Do you have a separate language from Albania? NO.
Irish are a separate race to the English. They have their own language and identity. You have brought your over from Albania.
Stop making up all this nonesense.
If you are indeed a different race from Albania then show us how.
Mark Shqype, with your logic we can certainly carve up California and call it The New Republic of California.
Californians are Californians because of their geographical location, yes?
But there is no such ethnic race as Californains.
Why can't we carve up every state in America now and call it a separate country?
Texans will be Texans too.
Regions are not countries and therefore cannot produce those nationalities.
Kosovo is a part of Serbia and there is no such nationality as Kosovars.
Willie Garvin:
> I have no bias on whether Kosovo should be part of Serbia or independent in respect of nationalist tendencies.
Read my last post again 'Willie Garvin', as I never said you did. Bias I was referring to was not towards one side or the other. Bias I was referring to was that against nationalists (from either side I presume) such as myself voicing their opinion as evidenced by the following:
> You sound like you support the Serbian nationalist cause and have already convinced yourself of the bad news. So, in advance, you're already started to make excuses why you should delude yourself of reality.
> But don't forget my second question. No doubt you will be rejoicing from the rooftops if Sejdiu is not introduced as President of sovereign Kosovo as proof of something or other.
All I did was put forward a theory which was heavily qualified. Turned out to be wrong. C'est la vie. Pristina media report it was based on also turned out to be wrong.
So here's a couple of points for you to remember -
Not all nationalists are extremists,
The message, not the messenger.
Pz:
You seem to have missed the point I was making.
Just because the UN allowed K-albanian elections to go through, does not imply legal recognition. UN is primarily concerned with maintaining the peace. Blocking elections (of either side) would've lead to instability, or outright violence. So they did not do it.
In Australia, in some cases, police elect to not pursue some suspects. They do so due to public safety concerns. Breaking off the pursuit does not make suspects actions retrospectively legal, as if caught later, will still be arrested - just as allowing elections to proceed does not imply retrospective legal recognition of UDI.
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