"New Macedonia name proposal prepared"

Dave

Wishfull thinking but fyrom will be unable to hold out.VMRO will accept a composite name and they will recommend this in a referendum.
Fyrom will have to make concessions to Albanians-if they want peace- and to Greeks in order to achieve their European and Nato aspirations.

As to Obama, I think he should be left out of the current name dispute by not taking sides and allow the Greeks and Fyrom to arrive at a negotiated settlement.

A country should be able to call itself exactly what it likes. I hope the Republic of Macedonia continues to hold out against the Former Ottoman Pashaluk of Greece.

To "Dave":

You can say insulting things about Greece freely if you feel that way. But this doesn't change the fact that you will change the name of FYROM soon ,EITHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!

You are not entitled to use the name of macedonia. New Macedonia is a good choice for your country because it shows the exact true situartion: THAT YOUR COUNRTRY HAS ABNSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OLD AND UNIQUE MACEDONIA!

I know that you might be pissed off because deep inside you KNOW that your country will soon change it's name. After all, your prime minister Gruevsky agreed to change the countrie's constitutional name to Republic of Macedonia - Skopie, just some months ago! The reason that this did not happen was that, Greece did not like that name so much. I agree... New Macedonia is a better name for your country! Gruevsky will change to that name soon as well. AND YOU KNOW IT.

@ 3 - hey pavle, actually the macedonian government is currently in the process of negotiating a deal with montenegro in regards to shifting transits of goods via sea from montenegro! Hence any future blockades would be irrelevant, thus bring back our flag and close the border.. we dont need nato/eu, their is nothing democratic about greece and the eu.. For christ sakes cops still beat people up people in the eu, Furthermore we cant change what we are! We are macedonians, perhaps you would like to implement tactics used by the nazis in world war ll in order to achieve your objectives?

Nikitas,

Last year I was on a tour of Europe, which included Greece. We visited Mount Olympus in the north along the Agean Sea. When we stopped in some small villages I overheard some of the shopkeepers speaking a Slavic sounding language fluently to one another, which I assumed was Macedonian. Are you saying that these people were not native to these villages? If not what happened to the natives of these villages?

@19 Risto.

"Once mighty and great Greece is run by corrupt politicians"
And poor fyrom isnt, thats why they needed a second round of voting, to ensure it :)

"has become nothing more than a puppet of the West"
Right. That why we opposed the usa plans and pressure on us and put a veto on fyromian nato entry. Because we are their puppets.

"Macedonia, which didn't belong to the Greeks until 1912"
Exactly the same year that we liberate it from the Ottomans.

"Greeks
turning their backs on their Orthodox neighbors who share
so much history is shameful."
No we dont. We are very close to our Orthodox neighbours the Serbs and the Bulgarians who share so much history. I fail to see any other Orthodox nation in the vicinity :)

"Just like Bush used 9/11 to incite a patriotic ferver in the US to distract its citizens while it got away with whatever it wanted,
Greek nationalist politicians are using this issue to distract the Greek people from the God knows what needs to be done in that country."
Now, replace "greek" in that sentnce with "fyromian" and you have the full picture :)

"are focused on bettering their future as a nation"
Correction. They are not a nation. They are many nations. Serbs, Bulgarians, albanians, Turks, Greeks, Roma etc etc.

"Anyway, I'd rather be in NEW York than York any day of the week."
Bon voyage :)

To Danyk100:

Oh yes Danyk100! It changes everything! Because it allows Greece and every single Greek in the world to officialy or not claim that - apart from the New Macedonia - there is one more macedonia the "old" one, the greek macedonia that is!

And also that the country that is called "New Macedonia", has NOTHING TO DO with the "old" ancient macedonia and Alexander the Great or Philip! That's why it's called "New"! So, as you see it changes everything... and mostly allows Greece to keep her culture and historical roots with no problem!

And of course it will happen that way soon. Get prepared for your new name, "new macedonians"!

Nikitas,

The world community (minus Greece) already refers to the people of the Republic of Macedonia ("New Macedonia) as Macedonian. adding the word "new" will not alter that. Greece can't make other refer to them as "something-Macedonians". They have been called Macedonians for so long that it will stick. And by the way where is ancient or Old Zealand located?

To Dannyk:

I don't care how you will be called in oral conversations Dany. What I care is that in ALL international organizations you will be referred as New Macedonia. In ALL your passports will be written New Macedonia.

And of course it will allow Greece to claim that YOU HAVE NO RELATION TO ANCIENT GREEK MACEDONIA (That's why you are called "New").

Now that Greece will be saying that you have NO RELATION to ancient macedonia, NO RELATION to Alexander the Great, NO RELATION to the ancient Greek macedonian culture, nobody will be asking "why FYROM is called macedonia anymore"! Because you will be named simply New Macedonia!

That's a victory for Greece. You see Danny, even if only one country in the world was not recognising your name, finally IT FORCED YOU to change the name that all the other countries had recognised already!

Get prepared for your new name, and start getting used to it! After all you are "New Macedonians". Because the "Old " macedonians were Greeks, with who you have NO RELATION with!

@dannyk100

Actually, this is what you all are missing. The whole discussion is not about the name only. It includes several other issues, including the ethnic clarification. So no, they will not be called macedonians as it is, rather they will be called (something)-Macedonians. These will distinct them definately from the original ones (me for example). The thin line here is not the country's name rather the people's name. So even if Greece was to agree the country to be called "republic of macedonia", we would never agree for the people to be called macedonians.
And just because it doesnt make any sense at all, to call a country A and people B'ians, the country's name is included in the whole package too.
And because I actually agree with you that if call a country North macedonia, you will eventually call its people macedonians, this is why I dont agree with any of those geografical definitions. The "new" is another thing. Take New Zealand for example. People dont call them Zealanders but New Zealanders, it kind of sticks to the name, although linguistically and semantics wise, Macedonians has more syllables and the adjective "new" doesnt exactly fit as it does with Zealanders.
So for me the best solution is to be called Paeonia or Lyngistos or something, clearly geographical indicative of the region they now occupy since they are just immigrants and not natives.

Dannyk100

"Are you saying that these people were not native to these villages?"
No, nothing of that kind. After so many years of occupation by slavs, the lingustic idioms remain, the ethnicity of those people though doesnt change. So yes, of course there are some thousands of Greeks speaking, apart from Greek, the slavic idiom that has been there since the arrival of the slavs in the area. I dont think that is relevant though. You knwo what? My wife is Asian (Phillipina). Their mother tongue is Tagalog, but in schools, in university, in the market, in bussiness, even in their own families, they all speak english because of the influence of the american precence (occupation for me) in their country since the begginings of 20th century. The Phillipinos in their own land arent natives because of the language?

"Greece is the only country in the world that refers to the Republic of Macedonia as FYROM"
Uhmmm actually no.
Even the EU calls it fyrom, all international organisations call it fyrom, the French call it fyrom, the Italians call it fyrom, want me to go on? Ohhh right, almost forgot, have you read the latest EU-US Summit declaration, just a few days ago? It was fyrom there too. So, no, its not only Greece, sorry :)

P.S. Mount Olympos is not at the north. Its in the middle and it is not not even in Makedonia, it is in Thessalia. So most probably you have heard one of the local thessalian idioms that certainly doesnt even sound close to Slavic. Greek Vlach maybe :)

Hey "NapredMakedonija", I don't care if your goverment signs any deals with Montenegro or anyone else! And of course I also don't care if you claim that you are macedonian, you can do it freely!

What I care most, is that your country will change it's constitutional name SOON, so I will be able to say to the whole world that I am the macedonian and you are NOT! And this will happen if your country changes the name to "New Macedonia", so I will remain the one and only real macedonian!

You know deep inside that this will happen VERY SOON! So start getting used to your new name quickly! The one GREECE WANTS to give you...


PS:The only NAZI tactics I witnessed lately in the region, were the terrorizing of the albanian population in the west, the shooting and the killing during the elections 2 weeks ago by DPA and Thaci, with the help of your police - given by Gruevsky! Your goverment seems to know better about NAZI tactics..

@4 Napred

"a deal with montenegro in regards to shifting transits of goods via sea from montenegro"

I wouldnt be that happy for that if i were you. You see, with the current petrol and gas prices, for a ship to go all around and up north to reach Montenegro just to supply you, will send the costs of any goods sky high. And you will be the ones to pay that price afterall, not me.
Besides, there isnt any way of Greece blockading your southern borders again, you learned your lesson once, you dont need a second one.

"we dont need nato/eu, their is nothing democratic about greece and the eu"
Actually you do need eu. Otherwise you will be starving in a few years. Although I would agree with the nato part, noone needs nato, nato needs us all and unfortunately we all contribute to this stupidity.

"Furthermore we cant change what we are!"
True, I absolutely agree with you. So why you want to become Makedonians and change the fact that you are Slavs?

Hey Pavlos,

The People of "New Macedonia" will still be referred to as Macedonians around the world and the residence of Greece will still be Greek. So how does this change anything?

Pavlos,

Greece is the only country in the world that refers to the Republic of Macedonia as FYROM, Greece will be the only country in the world to refer to the citizens of "New Macedonia" as "New Macedonians" the rest will refer to them as Macedonians, I Guarante it!

Pavlos & Nikitas,

First of all I'm American. Secondly, one thing that I don't understand about the Greek/Hellas/Macedonian countries Pick ONE name and the confusion will disappear.

Pavlos & Nikitas,

I guess what I'm asking is are you from Greece, Hellas or Macedonia ans What does it say on your Passport?

It's ironic that modern greeks which also have nothing to do with ancient macedonians but the geographical proximity, are denying the slav population the claim of Macedonia based on the same premises.

@25 ben

"What I don't understand is why you Greeks don't keep the same principle stance in the Kosova/Serbia issue???"

Sorry ben but I fail to understand the connection. Unless you are implying that albanians have anything to do with the Kossovo area, which is absolutely hilarius historically speaking.
Albanians were a small part (one tribe out of many) of the greater Illyrian family of tribes, residing only at those mountains to the west of the Prespes lakes.
This makes both of you Serbs and albanians, immigrants to the area of Kossovo not natives.
On the other hand of the other hilarius argument that you are Illyrians (which is in a very big dispute nowadays anymore with scientific proof that the albanians werent even inhabitants of the region, but immigrants from the Kaspian), I really want to ask you this.
Lets suppose you are descendants of Illyrians. Why do you take that much pride in that, since the Illyrian history is almost an empty book in the Balkans history. And why dont you call yourselves Illyrians then, if you are so proud about it?
And I mention Illyrians because that would be the only reason and argument for you to claim the Kossovo area as yours historically speaking.

Unless you are not putting it that far back and you are reffering to sometime before the arrival of the Slavs in the area. In that spirit, you are right, you were there some years before them maybe.

@23 nared

" i Believe Switzerland is not in th EU?? "
And you mean that your plan is to become Switzerland? lol.... good luck

@26 napred
Noone said that all immigrants should go anywhere. What we, at least, say is that noone should try and steal the other ones history and heritage and instead, embrace your own and honor it. Why is it that you are ashamed of your own heritage? You are Slavs, Bulgarians, Turks, Greeks, Roma, albanians. What is your problem accepting it other than the propaganda and the brain washing you have suffered since Tito's times?

Dannyk100

I dont think i ever said you are fyromian.

As for the other thing. You obviously dont get the point.
I am Makedonian, therfor I am Greek. As if I was Cretan, I would still be Greek, Thessalian the same, Epirot the same Peloponessian the same, Thracian the same, Aegean islander the same, Ionian islander the same.
We are all Greeks and nowhere in the passport writes Greek from Makedonia. Neither yours says American Sioux (for example).
Makedonia isnt another ethnicity or country, foreign to Greece, its just one of the parts of Greece, so why should my passport say such a thing?

On the other hand, you cant name a region something that it isnt. If you really are interested in the issue, then you would know that Makedonia is called by times immemorable, the area of today's Northern Greece that is also called Makedonia. The part that is northern than the Greek borders was never a part of the Makedonian lands, it became a part of the Kingdom of Makedonia after the Makedonian kings conquests. But historically it never was Makedonian, just a conquered country.
Now some people want to call that place Makedonia. Not only they dont know history, but they also dont know geography. Ouside Greek borders there is only a small 7-10% of the original Makedonian lands, so why exactly a country that has no relation whatsoever be called something that has no relation with and on top, that same name is an historical, traditional, etc etc everything, Greek asset?

See, this is not a matter of anything else rather than preventing the nationalism from expanding outside the borders of a state that has shown in the past in many instances, that it uses it with any chance it gets for any reason that it can.
We cant allow nationalism and irredentism to grow in the Balkans and even more, on the expence of our history, heritage, ethnicity, tradition and so on.


And for the fyromians in here.

Some days ago, your PM received an award from world bank, and also viited the New York stock market.
Now I am sure you all read the news. But did any of you see an actual photo of the events?
Because I feel that you havent.
What is it about those photos? They all mention the fyrom with its correct name, and Gruevski was very happy with it. Even the award was properly carved. Dont believe me? Check these photos and then let me know what you think of your fighter PM:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/free-speech-macedonia-forum/7333-gruevski-recognises-fyrom-fyrom.html

Before you start spoutting about the site, let me say that the site is of no interest. The photos are :)

The Greek government has little choice, given that the situation has become so politicised, and they are completely in the right here. The Macedonians continue to produce maps, documents and statements which attack the status quo in northern Greece.
The US needs the airfield and other facilities in Skopje to support our rape and theft of Kosovo, so the inclination is to support the Macedonian position and make the Greeks seem as if they are stubborn. I've always found Greek stubbornness to be one of their most admirable traits. I pray they don't give in to the sweet promises of the ignorant whores in our State Department.

Hey greek brothers, were behind you...

MACEDONIA IS GREECE.

#25..

Ben,

Regarding Immigrants and Natives, what are you saying? should all Slavic speaking people pack up and go back to Ukraine? do you want land rights? shall we give our lands to Albania?perhaps we should all go back to Africa as man evolved from Africa as per the scientific version? or for the religious people is god Albanian/Greek? I think it's high time you go back to Albania as you are immigrants in Macedonia and Kosovo, slavic speaking people have been in the Balkans for 1400 years.. obviously the Slavic tribes merged and assimulated with the local people hence im pretty confident that every Albanian and Greek on this forum has Slavic blood in their viens :)

The Ohrid airport has been renamed "St. Paul the Apostle", at the same time as Skopje's airport was rebaptized "Alexander the Great". On the Ohrid tourist web site, one can find a claim that Macedonia is biblical country, what with Lydia, staying at the time in Philippi (near Kavala, Eastern Macedonia, Greece) being the first "Macedonian and European Christian woman". Yet she was from Thyatera, which was one of the seven churches in Asia (Minor) in the book of Revelation. It is also stated "In Biblical Macedonia, every path leads to Ohrid". Paul the Apostle got lost, and never set foot in the place. So why name an airport after him ?
Here again, the truth is stretched by referring to events that took place elsewhere, but apparently necessary to lend gloss to the glory of the current FYRoMacedonia. As if Ohrid's history is not enough already (it does pretty well compared to Athens, Ohio). It is this endemic appropriation of glorious historical events which took place elsewhere which apparently contributes mightily to the "stability" of FYRoM, if I understand the argument made by some. I think it does not, nor does the ardent desire of some to re-fight the Greek civil war in their favour, or the recuperation of ancient Macedonia. The area of FYRoM corresponds mostly to ancient Paeonia, conquered by Philip II of Macedon, with the northwest part falling in ancient Dardania, and the west part (including Ohrid, formerly ancient Lihnidos) labelled on some maps Pelagonia. Besides, Alexander's tutor, Aristotle, born in ancient Macedonia, is one of the most influential Greek philosophers. So I can understand why Greeks are fed up with this stuff. Trying to undo the results of the Greek civil war, and Tito's failed attempt to use the Macedonian question to get to Thessaloniki is not helpful either. It is better left alone, and digging it up, such as done by leading politicians in Skopje, does not advance their cause. The continuous harping on "stability" of FYRoM deliberately ignores the mentality of some people living there, who seem to need to reinvent themselves with someone else's history. Perhaps they could stabilize their minds by prospering on their own efforts, and so contribute themselves to the stability of the Balkans. Greece is helping anyway, by investing a healthy amount of money, and transferring skills. This cannot be ignored, and promotes "stability". Recuperating someone else's history does not, and implicitly justifying this by ridiculing Greece's worries does not either.
Press reports have it that Luxembourg supported Greece's position, thereby making nonsense of some people’s remark about the situation there w.r.t. Belgian Luxembourg. Even cool heads from Iceland apparently supported Greece. So why does a group worrying about "international crisis" continue peddling their alarming statements? Just to give them self-importance?

Fact is that Greece has been portrayed as the "enemy" throughout all this by practically everyone in the former Yugoslav part of geographic Macedonia. This should be sufficient in explaining the Greek veto. Can you afford to be a sport and admit that much? Even your great benefactor George W. Bush warned you not to expect him to turn against an old and traditional ally. But as much effort as you have spent in "proving" that there is not any connection between Greece and Macedonia, you are very tight lipped on your own connection to ancient Macedonia. Perhaps Macedonians were not Greeks, if by that we mean the tribes of lower Hellas, but it is accepted that they were Hellenic if culture has anything to do with ethnic identity. Macedonians/Highlanders to those Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians etc. in their south. Alexander did not conquer Greece, Alexander united the Greeks. What Alexander spread was not the Macedonian civilization, but the Greek civilization and this period in history is termed as Hellenistic, not Macedonian. A Greek plot? I doubt it. To this day they have not managed to be accepted as Hellenes (their constitutional name) and they have to make do with their designation as Greeks.

But where exactly do you fit in the picture in Alexander's Macedonia? What makes the "Star of Vergina" your national symbol? Let us assume that Alexander was neither Greek nor Hellene, but of an entirely separate and pure breed that you claim exclusively for yourselves today. Also let's put aside the big chunk of your population that is having no problem describing themselves as Albanians rather than Macedonians and arguably be happier in being part of a greater Albania than a greater Macedonia. Can you explain this "identity" of yours under Greek threat nevertheless? If not Hellenic, was Alexander a Slav, which would make him your ancestor? You fail, I am afraid, to offer any cultural affinity to an identity you trace back 25 centuries. Complements of Tito all you are left with is a chunk of real estate that once belonged to a great Macedonian, bearing a Greek name, worshipping Greek gods, being tutored by a Greek philosopher, sleeping with Homer's Iliad under his pillow. What part of this great Macedonian do you identify with? what part of your "identity" are those inhabiting the part of "your" country under Greek occupation are trying to deprive you of?

Through history geographical Macedonia was inhabited by numerous "nationalities" and claimed by many nations. Following the Balkan Wars, 51% went to Greece, 38% to Serbia, 9% to Bulgaria and the remaining to others. In the late 40s Tito, a Croat, named the Serbian part "Macedonia" setting his eyes on Greek Macedonia and that's what you inherited. What does Tito's Macedonia, your Macedonia, have to do with Alexander's Macedonia, or Greek Macedonia or Bulgarian Macedonia today? Say "nothing" and tomorrow you are a NATO member.

In Bucharest Greece was not isolated as you wish to believe, unless you believe your own propaganda. So, Turkey was on your side. Congratulations! Later this year you will try the EU. Turkey will not be there. Greece will be.

To Steve:

Steve I can assure you that Greece has nothing to fear from the Albanians even if they want to cause trouble!

Greece is a much stronger country and I can guarantee you that if the Albanians try to cause any trouble to Greece, the response will be so hard that they will be deleted from the balkan area!

Even the albanian state will not support separatists against Greece. They are too scared to do that, because they would know the consequences!

So don't put FYROM and Greece in the same basket! FYROM has every reason to fear the albanian element because they have 1/3 of population ethnic albanians, and they have absolutely no power to prevent a possible civil war.

Greece has no albanian minorities in her land (only economic immigrants) and it is 100 times stronger economically and militarily than Albanians.

So don't worry about Greece. Just worry about your little FYROM.

(Steve, 18 June 2008 18:10)

quite immature this maxima from you Steve- telling me who I am and to whom my land belongs ;)

Hilarious when you start saying teh 25% issue (thanks for quantifying;) and than say whos land is to whom by contradicting your self.
I guess you still have a long way on your studies. Good luck.

(Nikitas, 18 June 2008 15:26)

Nikitas, there is no doubt in Albanian Illyrian culture. Only to the one with political opportunistic goals that fact is tempted to be put into question.

It’s our language, culture, tradition, clothes, folklore that says who we are- Illyrians. My God is Zot today as it was Zeus in the past- it’s only the ignorance and political opportunism that is issue here.

Anyhow, are the Srbs Slavs or not, Nikitas???? ;)

@34 Steve
For some people, like you, war is the only way to solve disputes.The immaturity alone of this solution and argument, is a indicator enough of how it should be treated.
Although i know its a waste of time to even type an answer, I will, because kids need to learn stuff from such boards.
Steve, neither Turkey nor albania can or have any legitimacy in waging war against Greece. Why? They are (albania soon will be) nato members. This means that they are obliged to keep peace and if they dont, they get handed their butts by the rest of the alliance members. This means: No war with albania, No war with Turkey.
And in any case fyrom is no military or any other kind of target for us, so... sorry no wars coming from Greece under any kind of democratically elected goverment.
I strongly point again that it remains a childish argument the "3 against 1 war" argument.

"remember during the Greek civil wars how they got conned into fighting WITH the Greeks and then got backstabed."
So the fyromians remember what exactly? How the Greek communist party under the guidance of Stalin and with the backing of Tito, promised the Slavic speaking Greeks to fight for the communist cause and not for the liberation cause?
You know, thank you. Thank you for sheding light on this and help my case.
Because, you know, when we Greeks argue that it was Tito's creation the whole "macedonian concious" fairy tale, we base it on exactly what you said. That the communist party with the help of Tito and the promise of a "free" part for them (the communists, not the macedonians) lurred the Slavic speaking Greeks that followed communism into this game. So once again, Thank you Steve for helpin me out on this one :)

@35 ben
Serbs are Slavs. And?
About the Illyrians thing, dont push it too hard, please. Its not the place nor the time to discuss it. But I can tell you this.
Your language, culture and tradition have nothing in common with ancient Illyria, yet. Not for any other reason, but because there isnt any kind of clue so far, about what was the language, culture and tradition of the Illyrians.

I can give you strong arguments about that, but as i said, its not the place nor the time for it :)
If it pleases you to be called Illyrian, go ahead, its ok, since Illyrians werent Greeks :)

(Pavlos, 19 June 2008 19:51)

Pavlos I am not anthropologist, historian. So when I said that the modern Greeks or modern Albanians have not so much in common with our ancestors I meant on the values and the culture of the ancestors and the modern descendents.

And this I didn't refer only to the moderns Greeks and Albanians but instead none of the today’s societies have even reached the half of the cultural vales and the open-minded society that the ancient Greeks had and with some hand Illyrians had.

I mean the ancient Greeks were sending the prisoners in the theatre so no Greek would have inferior culture, so to say- go figure something like that to happen in today Greece or even what is known as more 'consolidated democracies'- can't even imagine in the today Albania.

In this light go figure how much in common with the ancestors we have.

I think that you are all getting confused about what this issue is all about and therefore running around in circles.

I am Macedonian, I speak Macedonian and I have a Macedonian culture. This is who I am. This is my identity.

You can quote a million historians and another million politicians but I will not change, nay I CANNOT change who I am.

What you are trying to do is get me to change my identity. I assure you that you are fighting a losing battle. Right will always triumph over might.

The sooner you accept this the sooner we can move forward.

Macedonia should further align itself with its Orthodox brothers in Russia and Serbia and not capitulate on the name. Once mighty and great Greece
is run by corrupt politicians and has become nothing more than a puppet of the West and dumping ground for tourists.

The only pure part of Greece is the north, Macedonia, which didn't belong to the Greeks until 1912.

Greece is in NO way threated by tiny Macedonia and Greeks
turning their backs on their Orthodox neighbors who share
so much history is shameful.

Just like Bush used 9/11 to incite a patriotic ferver in the US to distract its citizens while it got away with whatever it wanted,
Greek nationalist politicians are using this issue to distract the Greek people from the God knows what needs to be done in that
country.

The people of Macedonia are focused on bettering their future as a nation (which is a basic human right) and all Greeks want to do is precent that and debate the past because it's all they have.

Anyway, I'd rather be in NEW York than York any day of the week.

#5

Hey "NapredMakedonija", I don't care if your goverment signs any deals with Montenegro or anyone else! And of course I also don't care if you claim that you are macedonian, you can do it freely!

Hey Pavle I don't recall raising queries regarding how you feel, e.g whether you care or not, your opening line is a sad indication of the mentality of many people in the bakans hence the problems we find ourselves in, of course you don't care, you only see the world through your own thought processes.. A prime example indeed!

I was merely pointing out the fact that the goverment of Macedonia is making contingency plans as they are expecting the worse in regards to their relations with the Athenians.. hence i honestly believe that this government will not change the name, the people voted the Gruevski goverment in hands down with a majority.. they are supportive of the current tactics.

P.S As for the cheap shot regarding NAZISM.. please refrain from such i'll informed comments, for starters how would the Macedonians gain by killing Albanians? the Gruevski government won a majority hence hypothetically it need not form a coalition with anyone else!! + killing people in front or our investors is not so wise dont you agree? However imposing your will on others resembles the NAZIS, after all we are not imposing anything on you guys.. furthermore Nikola Gruevski's grandfather lays buried in Greece near Florina under the name Nikolais Gruios, he fought and died for Greece against the Italians in World War II yet he's real name is not permitted on his tomb stone.. now if thats not facism then i dont know what is.. So please, we are happy to hear your valid arguements but please refrain from any form of propaganda..

@NIkitas no we really dont need the EU to run our lives?? i Believe Switzerland is not in th EU?? nor is Australia for that fact yet we are doing fine.. we just need intelligent people to run our country, obviously we can't help external factors who seek our downfull in order to achieve their objectives.

"Once mighty and great Greece is run by corrupt politicians"
And poor fyrom isnt, thats why they needed a second round of voting, to ensure it :)

At least minorities (Albanians) in Macedonia are able to vote in their own language and vote people of their ethnicity into government. But yes, democracy is messy (especially new ones like Macedonia). Greece doesn’t even recognize let alone give equal rights to minorities. Ethnic Macedonians in the province that bears their name have no rights. Greece is a fake democracy. And this issue is only shedding light on that fact. So I for one, hope it is dragged on for as long as possible:P

(NapredMakedonija, 18 June 2008 13:05)

No one should go no where.

But teh political issues that we have can be solved only and only if we give a clear name and surname to the issues.

FYROM has nothing to do with native civilisation and this is insult even for the intelligence of a 10 old student.

As well as Kosova and other parts of north and west Macedonia that have nothing to do with the states which part are/were.

If we see each other in teh eyes and start talking sincerely to each other we will find that there is plenty of room in Balkans for everyone- actually to much- consider that FYROM territorially is bigger than Belgium but has only 2M of ppl. OK I am not saying that some one has too much than the other- no movement of ppl but just want to emphasis hat we are actually arguing for nothing.

Watch teh density of population in teh Balkans. The highest is the Albanian. But again much less that teh one of the western European countries. The Serbian is double of the Albanian and still want to have Kosovo or something of Kosovo.

What is the issue of the name of Macedonia- there is no issue there. It’s the US and EU that fear that FYROM will go on Russian side that lives this issue open- historically there is no issue there. Why do you provoke with naming the Airport of Skopje Alexander the Great- what do you share with Alexander: language? Culture? Folklore? What?? Nothing. Why you should feel offended if someone tales this to you? It’s simply a fact.

This doesn’t mean that you are worth less than others or with less dignity than other nation s in the Balkans. It is simply is the way of going through of this artificial and in essence inexistent problems.

As you said many years have passed many things have changed so why not accepting New Macedonia? The old was dead at least 1,000 years before Slavs arrived in the Balkans. So the word New is perfectly OK. Just accept it and let’s move forward.

Even the Russian academy of science recognised that Ukrainians and Macedonians are the newst Slavic nation- so where is the problem???

Macedonia should be Macedonia, just like Kosovo is Kosovo ! That's my opinion.

Greetings

Macedonians don't need Albanians, they should let them partition 25% of the country,(north-west)join it with Albania.

The Albanians are not finished when they have their Kosova and north-west Macedonia. Greece & Montenegro are on the agenda LAST. So you can laugh at the poor Macedonians but soon you will have to deal with the same problem.

As for the Macedonian name issue, it will be solved soon.

Out of all the occupiers of Macedonia, the Athenians were and are the most brutal out of all. Serbs and Turks were very decent in comparison to what the Athenians have done thus far. (atleast Serbs and Turks recognized the people they are conquering as Macedonians).

If the Macedonians say they are Greek but speak a Slavic language, the Athenians would have no problem and even recommend they join the country of Greece so they can continue being brothers.

Lets all hope history doesn't repeat itself in the Balkans and another war starts. Hopefully Kosovo doesn't lead Serbia into another armed conflict, because this time around it will be a ripple effect throughout the whole of the Balkans, including Athens.

MACEDONIA IS MACEDONIAN
KOSOVO IS SERBIAN

@38 Risto
Please stop being naive.
Of course there were Greeks that fought for and against communism in the civil war. Besides if they were all fighting for communism, against whom would there be a civil war?

And also. If those "macedonians" fought in the Greek civil war, doesnt this mean that they are Greeks? Otherwise it wouldnt be a civil war, it would be "regular" war :)

And what do you mean "they agreed to fight with the Greeks"?
They fought because they were Greeks :)


"with no minority rights as MACEDONIANS in Greece"
And why exactly should they have minority rights? Which one is their minority? Ex-communists (that part I mean)? Sorry, thats not an ethnic minority, a social or civil or political minority maybe :)
Or maybe you are implying that all Greek regions should give their people minority rights? Ok then, Thessalians as Greks should ahve minority rigths, Cretans as Greeks should have minority rights, Makedonians as Greeks should have minority rights and so on. What kind of twisted logic is that?????

"despite agreeing to surrender their Macedonian names for Greek ones"
Wait. I thought that your propaganda was that they were forced to change their names, not agree on it. You realy have to make up your mind, you are confusing me :)

@42 ben

"but unfortunately I have Nikitas."
Lol... that was a good one, really.
But I can see the desparation here. It is really unfortunate for you (in general) that you have as neighbours people that are into their history, heritage, culture, tradition and they just dont let it fall in "barbarians" hands without a fight.
You see, Greeks were here, Greeks are here and Greeks will forever be here since this is our land and will always be. And we take pride in preserving our history and heritage, contrary to others that just want to go the easy way and steal foreign history.
Sorry if you see us like that, sorry if we are aware of our role and past, sorry but we are not givin git up.

To the Athenians on this board:

If the Macedonians (living in FYROM) submit and say "We are Greeks speaking a Slavic language, then the Maceodnian issue would be solved. Macedonia will be allowed to call itself Macedonia so long they admit their culture and ethnicity is Greek.

Since the Macedonians (historically speaking) have never submitted to Athenian pressure for thousands of years, it will not happen. Whether they speak Enlgish, modern Greek, modern Macedonian or Turkish, it doesn't matter, the fact is they are still Macedonians.

I understand how you feel they may be "stealing" your history, but just because something was written with the Greek alphabet, doesn't mean it was Greek.

Besides, a Macedonian can read Greek very easily.

Ben
In the above view of things, I dont think there would be someone to disagree. But it is ofcourse the natural course of things so to say.
Remember this. When Basil the Bulgar-slayer defeated the bulgarian army at the battle of Kleidi, he took out the eyes of 10.000 prisoners and send them back to Bulgarian kingdom. Although viewed today that was an incredibly barbaric and brutal nad inhuman act, by those times ethics, Basil was accused of becoming soft on his enemies because he didnt executed them.

Of course ethics and everything change through times and especially through hundrends of years. You cant expect the world (and not a nation as a whole) to keep the same ethics, although you can expect those ethics and traditions to stay alive in smaller groups such as villages and families.
In this spirit, Greeks still keep some of those values within family and this was one of the little things that kept us (and of course many other nations) alive during those last thousand years.

since they are just immigrants and not natives.
(Nikitas, 17 June 2008 18:13)

Nikitas & other Greeks:

I fully understand and agree with you. FYROM has nothing to do with the native civilisation...

What I don't understand is why you Greeks don't keep the same principle stance in the Kosova/Serbia issue???

Same identical thing like the case of FYROM/Greece: natives and immigrants.

If FYROM are Slavs immigrant what are Serbs??? aren't they Slavs too???

This your double standard two face politics is just out of any reasonable comprehension.

Be principle and fair- not opportunist.

Macedonia should further align itself with its Orthodox brothers in Russia and Serbia and not capitulate on the name.
(Risto, 18 June 2008 00:30)

Risto there is a strong current opinion in FYROM on this line.

That’s why there is the delay in the recognition in Kosova;
Uncooperativeness with Greece in the issue of name;
Fort the first time in the history FYROM did not meet the democratic criteria for the free and democratic elections;
There are is clearly lack of engagement in meeting the EU and NATO standards;

Well Risto you and some of your politicians may work on this agenda and you might have a success – but before you will have to deposit the half of the territories that you own today, to Albania.

I hope that this politics will once and for all open the eyes to the corrupted Greek politicians and above all their Church and that they will realise once and for all that what we have today is the same identical thing that we had many centuries ago: natives and Slavic immigrants.

Hopefully this will open their eyes in a way that the natives align in one block instead of pursuing opportunistic politics with Serbia.

To Pavlos

Athens may be more powerful than Albania, but it is not more powerful than Albania, Macedonia and Turkey. You see my dear Pavlos, there are other countries in the region that can't stand Athens propaganda, and they are your enemies just as much as the Albanians and Macedonians.

Good luck fighting all 3, and don't count on Serbia to kill Macedonians to help you.

The Macedonians remember during the Greek civil wars how they got conned into fighting WITH the Greeks and then got backstabed. They remember real good.

Illyrians werent Greeks :)
(Nikitas, 18 June 2008 23:03)

That's for sure Nikitas.

Now pls explain me why the what is called modern Greek has nothing to do with teh nacient Greek neither in syntax or grammar???

Nikitas, be reasonable, I understand that love is blindness but lets be serious for a moment.

As "your" ancient historians and philosophers diligently have noticed the arrival of teh Slavs in teh Balkans on VII- X cent. and now we scientifically know that this happened, it is quite reasonable to presume that they would've diligently as well noticed the "arrival" of the new "immigrants" Albanians- moreover because these "immigrants" were not modest at all to settle in a corner of teh Balkans but they "arrived" in the Adrictic and Jonian costs.

But there is no such document Nikitas.

(Pavlos, 19 June 2008 14:03)

Pavlos in principle you are right.

And I hope you will agree with me that neither you modern Greeks nor we, modern Albanians have not much in common with our ancestors, unfortunately. I wish to have the ancient Greeks as my neighbor but unfortunately I have Nikitas. So please refer to my e-mail #27.

What I was referring is a today political issue and unprincipled position of you Greeks- they are Slav immigrants when it suits to you but when is our up to us than you don’t mind anymore the history and the consequences of the historical facts. Although, today your FM declared that Greece wouldn't mind at all if Kosova Gov/t expresses desire to open an 'office' in Athens.

As far as the barbarian term- I am very easy to let you know that I don’t perceive it at all as offensive- the Illyrian culture is gaining place in the scientific community everyday more and more and many facts are coming into the light.

@40 ben

"pls explain me why the what is called modern Greek has nothing to do with teh nacient Greek neither in syntax or grammar??? "

Actually modern Greek is almost the same as ancient Greek in ways of grammar and syntax. The words themselves are almost identical, the roots of the words havent changed at all.
If a Greek stands in front of an ancient stele, he can read perfectly the inscription.

Now ben please tell me. Is there any such thing as a stele written in ancient Illyrian that you can read, at all?
See, this is our difference. We didnt immigrate here and we still follow the linguistic values and rules and everything of our ancestors, in a modernised way. I am wondering, which other nation of the Balkan region has any, ANY, ancient inscription written in its "own" language, that can be read by today's residents of the area other than the Greeks?

(Nikitas, 19 June 2008 16:50)

Who is putting into question your patriotism? me surely NO.

Teh irony was there to highlight the fact that you mentioned the Albanians as immigrants and you don't have an answer on:

As "your" ancient historians and philosophers diligently have noticed the arrival of teh Slavs in teh Balkans on VII- X cent. and now we scientifically know that this happened, it is quite reasonable to presume that they would've diligently as well noticed the "arrival" of the new "immigrants" Albanians- moreover because these "immigrants" were not modest at all to settle in a corner of teh Balkans but they "arrived" in the Adrictic and Jonian costs. #40

And that you are shameless in pursuing your double standards approach:

'they are Slav immigrants when it suits to you but when is up to us than you don’t mind anymore the history and the consequences of the historical facts'#40.

So Nikitas what's your comment on this. Its unequivocally double standard approach. It's teh lack of honesty to admit it.

I have no problem in agreeing with Pavlos #41.

@47 Steve

"to the Athenians" lol.... thats funny if you consider that you are talking to a Makedonian :)

Anyways
"If the Macedonians (living in FYROM) submit and say "We are Greeks speaking a Slavic language, then the Maceodnian issue would be solved."
The issue can be solved also if the Slavs that claim to be Makedonians in Fyrom, finally admit that they are Slavs, since all Makedonians I know of, consider themselves Greeks already. So your point is solved :)

"but just because something was written with the Greek alphabet, doesn't mean it was Greek."
I agree. But when something that was written in Greek, is addressed to Greeks, and it is written by Greeks, then it is definately Greek :)

"Besides, a Macedonian can read Greek very easily"
Lol..... exactly my point. Makedonians are Greeks :)

"Since the Macedonians (historically speaking) have never submitted to Athenian pressure for thousands of years"
When did that pressure of thousand of years happened and I missed it????????

@53 Golden

"You can quote a million historians and another million politicians but I will not change"
Its ok Golden. And I can say I am from Mars. But who actually believes me?
The point is. Believe whatever you wish to believe. Its your choice and right. In this issue though, it is much more different than reality and the sooner you get it the better for you.
What you believe you can keep it. Dont try to impose it to the rest of us and dont try to steal it from the ral ones (thats us Makedonians, therefor Greeks).

@54 Prilep
"The region should have it's original name returned to it and move on"
My thoughts too.
Could be wonderfully named Paeonia or Panonia or Dardania or Lyngistia. After all there is no Makedonian lands in the area that Fyrom covers today, so whats the point?

Golden:” I am Macedonian, I speak Macedonian and I have a Macedonian culture. This is who I am. This is my identity.”

Does that give you a monopoly on the name? What about some residents of Slav Macedonia who claim a direct descent from the ancients and go out of their way to fabricate histories?

As a Greek, I find it perfectly acceptable for you to consider yourselves Macedonian seeing as you live in the geographical region. But to lay claim on the name, language and history of a culture you have no historical links with is offensive. You claim you speak the Macedonian language yet it is Bulgarian Cyrillic with another name. A large part of your Slavic population claims a link to the classical and historic Macedonians yet your ancestors didn’t appear until 1000 years after Macedon became part of the Hellenic Empire and later the Byzantine Empire. Your government prints money with Greek monuments depicted on it. The books in your schools lay claim on lands stretching as far as the Peloponese. You describe the lands south of your border “occupied” lands. You describe us as Nazis yet you are the ones who collaborated with them during WW2 and we suffered under them.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. If you want us to respect your identity, you’ll have to start respecting ours.

To Steve:

The only country that could in any way harm Greece is Turkey. It is the only country in the region that has similar military forces. But not similar economic strenght!

Don't hope that we will fight the 3 countries together! We don't want and we don't need to fight your country or Albania. And Greece and Albania have good relations right now, you should know that...

If some albanian extremists have plans against Greece, certainly the official Albanian state does not.

So, be sure that if Greece wanted to harm FYROM it could do it easily... and drastically in less than a week! But we don't want to do so. Turkey is Greece's real enemy and noone else.

FYROM cannot be taken seriously as an enemy. The Luxemburg army is more powerful than them!

To Nikitis (37):

I believe Steve (34)referred to the Macedonians who as CITIZENS of Greece, fought WITH the Greek army AGAINST the communists.

But after the war ended, the ones that survived STILL were (ARE) treated as second class citizens with no minority rights as MACEDONIANS in Greece (despite agreeing to surrender their Macedonian names for Greek ones). If that’s not back stabbing I don’t know what is.

Even in the US, people of color, who fought in wars, eventually gained equal rights.

What kind of country STILL treats its veterans this way? Greece. That's who.

Your generalized statement linking Macedonian identity to communism is pure rudeness and arrogance.

To Ben:

Ben, please be more precise when you talk about history, especially to a greek.

Yes it is true, according to most historians that the ancient Illyrians are connected to modern albanians. Yes it is true.

It is also true that these people were consider as "barbarians" by the anciet Greeks, and they did not have written vocabulary or language.

You see, the ancient Greeks had a clear distinction about which tribes were barbarians, located at the balkan penisuila at north of Greece:

They were the Illyrians, the Danubians (modern romanians are supposed to have some ethnic links with them) and also the Thracian - phyrigians who had a different oral language than Greek, by were absorbed by Greeks later.

There are the exact three ancient tribes that were located at north of Greece and were supposed "barbarians - non greek" by tens of greek and roman historians.

Now, to say that modern Greek has northing to do with ancient Greek, only exposes your ignorance and nothing else. 70% of the modern Greek language and 90% of the modern Greek grammar is IDENTICAL to the ancient Greek!

It is nice to try and explore your roots, by please try to be more educated next time you mention historical reasoning - and especially for others. It is not good to expose yourself that way.

ben (40): "Now pls explain me why the what is called modern Greek has nothing to do with teh nacient Greek neither in syntax or grammar???"

You're not doing yourself any favours here. Anyone who knows anything about Greece, knows that the Greek (Hellenic to put it correctly) language is the longest contiuous language in the world with over 5000 years of history. It has evolved continuously and into different dialects. Ancient Greek is as intelligible to me as modern Greek.

Maybe you should try to spend more time exploring your own roots rather than trying so hard to disprove ours.

And what's all this about Illyrians? Why do modern day Albanians aspire to be like the Illyrians, who didn't have any known written language, very little craft and no significant legacy to speak of?

Write your own destiny. It's time for the residents of the Balkans to stop hating each other.

To Ben:

You seem to be an open-minded person, so I know that I can communicate with you.

You said that you don't believe that we modern Greeks or you modern Albanians have so much in common with our ancestors.

I must tell you that the two cases are not so similar.

Modern Greeks share the same language with ancient Greeks (almost identical as I explained you before), share the same ancient traditions and customs until today, have the same physical appearence according to ancient greek pictures with ancient greeks, and some of them until today... also share the same religion! (the 12 Gods religion is still followed by some Greeks...).

On the other hand, the ancient Illyrian tribe did not have a written language or vocabulary - so nobody can know if modern albanian have any similarities with that language.

Also did not have any ancient monuments, building or artifacts to know what kind of traditions they had or how they looked like.

The only describtions about the ancient Illyrians come from the ancient Greek and also some Roman writers and scholars!

So only from these information, and from those describtions it is assumed that this ancient tribe is the ancestors of modern albanians.

However as I explained you, it is much clearer that ancient Greeks shared way TOO much more characteristics with modern Greeks, than the ancient Illyrians with modern Albanians, that's why internationally modern Greeks are assumed direct descedants of the ancient Greeks.

The word "barbarian" I agree with you, doesn't mean something bad. It is the word that the ancient Greeks just used to describe the non-greeks. Nothing bad about it.

And I finish by telling you that I strongly believe that the ancient Illyrians are descednats of modern albanians, mostly because of the way they are described by ancient Greek writers. (Red skin, angle face ...similar to the modern albanian people).

Herodotus gives a very good describtion of the ancient Illyrian tribe, you can take the book and have a look.

Right ben, I forgot that little thing.

So, you are saying that since none of the writers of the times is writting anything about the coming of albanians, then they should have been there since forever.
Well, let me not agree totally.
It might be so. It also might no be so. You see, the Slavs when arriving they made a big fuss, they threatened the empire, they waged wars, in short they announced their arrival loud and clear.
On the other hand, I will ask you to consider this. One of the 2st writers to mention anything about albania(ns) might have been Ptolemy. Now, ask yourself. The Epirots were there since forever (Molossans etc) and have conquered that lands. The Makedonians were there since forever and conquered those lands. The Thessalians have conquered those lands. The Romans have conquered those lands. None of them has ever mentioned the albanians living in the area. Did they miss them or maybe the albanians werent there yet?

My personal belief (and believe me I have been studying this for many years) is that the albanians came in the area later. And as I said before, from the western shores of the Kaspian sea.
But. It is just my personal belief. I might be wrong, I might be right. You know what the tricky thing is here?
That so far, no independent scientist can confirm or deny that you were here or not. There is no solid proof of either version. I just rely on my study and you rely on another. For any of the 2 versions, can anyone sane say that is absolutely scientifical truth.
And to sum it up.
The Slavs are immigrants here.
In my belief, you are also immigrants here.
Those 2 sentences above, cannot on their own count a territory (namely Kossovo) in one or the other side.
The difference here is that you both claim an area that wasnt yours, as yours. In our situation with the fyromians, they are claiming not an area, which would be minor, but the history of a nation.

Why I support Serbians on this? Because they are right. Historically speaking, the place has more importance for them than you.

I dont know if you are covered now :)

The region should have it's original name returned to it and move on; Stara Srbija (Old Serbia) or Juzna Srbija (South Serbia). Besides, the Slav population is largly of Serbian origin. Though, severed from this reality and perversly tought into believing that they are decendants of Aleksander and Philip, during the years of Tito's anti-Serbian policies.

Dave

Wishfull thinking but fyrom will be unable to hold out.VMRO will accept a composite name and they will recommend this in a referendum.
Fyrom will have to make concessions to Albanians-if they want peace- and to Greeks in order to achieve their European and Nato aspirations.

As to Obama, I think he should be left out of the current name dispute by not taking sides and allow the Greeks and Fyrom to arrive at a negotiated settlement.

To "Dave":

You can say insulting things about Greece freely if you feel that way. But this doesn't change the fact that you will change the name of FYROM soon ,EITHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!

You are not entitled to use the name of macedonia. New Macedonia is a good choice for your country because it shows the exact true situartion: THAT YOUR COUNRTRY HAS ABNSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OLD AND UNIQUE MACEDONIA!

I know that you might be pissed off because deep inside you KNOW that your country will soon change it's name. After all, your prime minister Gruevsky agreed to change the countrie's constitutional name to Republic of Macedonia - Skopie, just some months ago! The reason that this did not happen was that, Greece did not like that name so much. I agree... New Macedonia is a better name for your country! Gruevsky will change to that name soon as well. AND YOU KNOW IT.

Hey "NapredMakedonija", I don't care if your goverment signs any deals with Montenegro or anyone else! And of course I also don't care if you claim that you are macedonian, you can do it freely!

What I care most, is that your country will change it's constitutional name SOON, so I will be able to say to the whole world that I am the macedonian and you are NOT! And this will happen if your country changes the name to "New Macedonia", so I will remain the one and only real macedonian!

You know deep inside that this will happen VERY SOON! So start getting used to your new name quickly! The one GREECE WANTS to give you...


PS:The only NAZI tactics I witnessed lately in the region, were the terrorizing of the albanian population in the west, the shooting and the killing during the elections 2 weeks ago by DPA and Thaci, with the help of your police - given by Gruevsky! Your goverment seems to know better about NAZI tactics..

@dannyk100

Actually, this is what you all are missing. The whole discussion is not about the name only. It includes several other issues, including the ethnic clarification. So no, they will not be called macedonians as it is, rather they will be called (something)-Macedonians. These will distinct them definately from the original ones (me for example). The thin line here is not the country's name rather the people's name. So even if Greece was to agree the country to be called "republic of macedonia", we would never agree for the people to be called macedonians.
And just because it doesnt make any sense at all, to call a country A and people B'ians, the country's name is included in the whole package too.
And because I actually agree with you that if call a country North macedonia, you will eventually call its people macedonians, this is why I dont agree with any of those geografical definitions. The "new" is another thing. Take New Zealand for example. People dont call them Zealanders but New Zealanders, it kind of sticks to the name, although linguistically and semantics wise, Macedonians has more syllables and the adjective "new" doesnt exactly fit as it does with Zealanders.
So for me the best solution is to be called Paeonia or Lyngistos or something, clearly geographical indicative of the region they now occupy since they are just immigrants and not natives.

To Danyk100:

Oh yes Danyk100! It changes everything! Because it allows Greece and every single Greek in the world to officialy or not claim that - apart from the New Macedonia - there is one more macedonia the "old" one, the greek macedonia that is!

And also that the country that is called "New Macedonia", has NOTHING TO DO with the "old" ancient macedonia and Alexander the Great or Philip! That's why it's called "New"! So, as you see it changes everything... and mostly allows Greece to keep her culture and historical roots with no problem!

And of course it will happen that way soon. Get prepared for your new name, "new macedonians"!

Dannyk100

"Are you saying that these people were not native to these villages?"
No, nothing of that kind. After so many years of occupation by slavs, the lingustic idioms remain, the ethnicity of those people though doesnt change. So yes, of course there are some thousands of Greeks speaking, apart from Greek, the slavic idiom that has been there since the arrival of the slavs in the area. I dont think that is relevant though. You knwo what? My wife is Asian (Phillipina). Their mother tongue is Tagalog, but in schools, in university, in the market, in bussiness, even in their own families, they all speak english because of the influence of the american precence (occupation for me) in their country since the begginings of 20th century. The Phillipinos in their own land arent natives because of the language?

"Greece is the only country in the world that refers to the Republic of Macedonia as FYROM"
Uhmmm actually no.
Even the EU calls it fyrom, all international organisations call it fyrom, the French call it fyrom, the Italians call it fyrom, want me to go on? Ohhh right, almost forgot, have you read the latest EU-US Summit declaration, just a few days ago? It was fyrom there too. So, no, its not only Greece, sorry :)

P.S. Mount Olympos is not at the north. Its in the middle and it is not not even in Makedonia, it is in Thessalia. So most probably you have heard one of the local thessalian idioms that certainly doesnt even sound close to Slavic. Greek Vlach maybe :)

A country should be able to call itself exactly what it likes. I hope the Republic of Macedonia continues to hold out against the Former Ottoman Pashaluk of Greece.

@4 Napred

"a deal with montenegro in regards to shifting transits of goods via sea from montenegro"

I wouldnt be that happy for that if i were you. You see, with the current petrol and gas prices, for a ship to go all around and up north to reach Montenegro just to supply you, will send the costs of any goods sky high. And you will be the ones to pay that price afterall, not me.
Besides, there isnt any way of Greece blockading your southern borders again, you learned your lesson once, you dont need a second one.

"we dont need nato/eu, their is nothing democratic about greece and the eu"
Actually you do need eu. Otherwise you will be starving in a few years. Although I would agree with the nato part, noone needs nato, nato needs us all and unfortunately we all contribute to this stupidity.

"Furthermore we cant change what we are!"
True, I absolutely agree with you. So why you want to become Makedonians and change the fact that you are Slavs?

To Dannyk:

I don't care how you will be called in oral conversations Dany. What I care is that in ALL international organizations you will be referred as New Macedonia. In ALL your passports will be written New Macedonia.

And of course it will allow Greece to claim that YOU HAVE NO RELATION TO ANCIENT GREEK MACEDONIA (That's why you are called "New").

Now that Greece will be saying that you have NO RELATION to ancient macedonia, NO RELATION to Alexander the Great, NO RELATION to the ancient Greek macedonian culture, nobody will be asking "why FYROM is called macedonia anymore"! Because you will be named simply New Macedonia!

That's a victory for Greece. You see Danny, even if only one country in the world was not recognising your name, finally IT FORCED YOU to change the name that all the other countries had recognised already!

Get prepared for your new name, and start getting used to it! After all you are "New Macedonians". Because the "Old " macedonians were Greeks, with who you have NO RELATION with!

Right ben, I forgot that little thing.

So, you are saying that since none of the writers of the times is writting anything about the coming of albanians, then they should have been there since forever.
Well, let me not agree totally.
It might be so. It also might no be so. You see, the Slavs when arriving they made a big fuss, they threatened the empire, they waged wars, in short they announced their arrival loud and clear.
On the other hand, I will ask you to consider this. One of the 2st writers to mention anything about albania(ns) might have been Ptolemy. Now, ask yourself. The Epirots were there since forever (Molossans etc) and have conquered that lands. The Makedonians were there since forever and conquered those lands. The Thessalians have conquered those lands. The Romans have conquered those lands. None of them has ever mentioned the albanians living in the area. Did they miss them or maybe the albanians werent there yet?

My personal belief (and believe me I have been studying this for many years) is that the albanians came in the area later. And as I said before, from the western shores of the Kaspian sea.
But. It is just my personal belief. I might be wrong, I might be right. You know what the tricky thing is here?
That so far, no independent scientist can confirm or deny that you were here or not. There is no solid proof of either version. I just rely on my study and you rely on another. For any of the 2 versions, can anyone sane say that is absolutely scientifical truth.
And to sum it up.
The Slavs are immigrants here.
In my belief, you are also immigrants here.
Those 2 sentences above, cannot on their own count a territory (namely Kossovo) in one or the other side.
The difference here is that you both claim an area that wasnt yours, as yours. In our situation with the fyromians, they are claiming not an area, which would be minor, but the history of a nation.

Why I support Serbians on this? Because they are right. Historically speaking, the place has more importance for them than you.

I dont know if you are covered now :)

@47 Steve

"to the Athenians" lol.... thats funny if you consider that you are talking to a Makedonian :)

Anyways
"If the Macedonians (living in FYROM) submit and say "We are Greeks speaking a Slavic language, then the Maceodnian issue would be solved."
The issue can be solved also if the Slavs that claim to be Makedonians in Fyrom, finally admit that they are Slavs, since all Makedonians I know of, consider themselves Greeks already. So your point is solved :)

"but just because something was written with the Greek alphabet, doesn't mean it was Greek."
I agree. But when something that was written in Greek, is addressed to Greeks, and it is written by Greeks, then it is definately Greek :)

"Besides, a Macedonian can read Greek very easily"
Lol..... exactly my point. Makedonians are Greeks :)

"Since the Macedonians (historically speaking) have never submitted to Athenian pressure for thousands of years"
When did that pressure of thousand of years happened and I missed it????????

Ben
In the above view of things, I dont think there would be someone to disagree. But it is ofcourse the natural course of things so to say.
Remember this. When Basil the Bulgar-slayer defeated the bulgarian army at the battle of Kleidi, he took out the eyes of 10.000 prisoners and send them back to Bulgarian kingdom. Although viewed today that was an incredibly barbaric and brutal nad inhuman act, by those times ethics, Basil was accused of becoming soft on his enemies because he didnt executed them.

Of course ethics and everything change through times and especially through hundrends of years. You cant expect the world (and not a nation as a whole) to keep the same ethics, although you can expect those ethics and traditions to stay alive in smaller groups such as villages and families.
In this spirit, Greeks still keep some of those values within family and this was one of the little things that kept us (and of course many other nations) alive during those last thousand years.

The region should have it's original name returned to it and move on; Stara Srbija (Old Serbia) or Juzna Srbija (South Serbia). Besides, the Slav population is largly of Serbian origin. Though, severed from this reality and perversly tought into believing that they are decendants of Aleksander and Philip, during the years of Tito's anti-Serbian policies.

@53 Golden

"You can quote a million historians and another million politicians but I will not change"
Its ok Golden. And I can say I am from Mars. But who actually believes me?
The point is. Believe whatever you wish to believe. Its your choice and right. In this issue though, it is much more different than reality and the sooner you get it the better for you.
What you believe you can keep it. Dont try to impose it to the rest of us and dont try to steal it from the ral ones (thats us Makedonians, therefor Greeks).

@54 Prilep
"The region should have it's original name returned to it and move on"
My thoughts too.
Could be wonderfully named Paeonia or Panonia or Dardania or Lyngistia. After all there is no Makedonian lands in the area that Fyrom covers today, so whats the point?

Golden:” I am Macedonian, I speak Macedonian and I have a Macedonian culture. This is who I am. This is my identity.”

Does that give you a monopoly on the name? What about some residents of Slav Macedonia who claim a direct descent from the ancients and go out of their way to fabricate histories?

As a Greek, I find it perfectly acceptable for you to consider yourselves Macedonian seeing as you live in the geographical region. But to lay claim on the name, language and history of a culture you have no historical links with is offensive. You claim you speak the Macedonian language yet it is Bulgarian Cyrillic with another name. A large part of your Slavic population claims a link to the classical and historic Macedonians yet your ancestors didn’t appear until 1000 years after Macedon became part of the Hellenic Empire and later the Byzantine Empire. Your government prints money with Greek monuments depicted on it. The books in your schools lay claim on lands stretching as far as the Peloponese. You describe the lands south of your border “occupied” lands. You describe us as Nazis yet you are the ones who collaborated with them during WW2 and we suffered under them.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. If you want us to respect your identity, you’ll have to start respecting ours.

Hey Pavlos,

The People of "New Macedonia" will still be referred to as Macedonians around the world and the residence of Greece will still be Greek. So how does this change anything?

Pavlos,

Greece is the only country in the world that refers to the Republic of Macedonia as FYROM, Greece will be the only country in the world to refer to the citizens of "New Macedonia" as "New Macedonians" the rest will refer to them as Macedonians, I Guarante it!

Nikitas,

Last year I was on a tour of Europe, which included Greece. We visited Mount Olympus in the north along the Agean Sea. When we stopped in some small villages I overheard some of the shopkeepers speaking a Slavic sounding language fluently to one another, which I assumed was Macedonian. Are you saying that these people were not native to these villages? If not what happened to the natives of these villages?

Dannyk100

I dont think i ever said you are fyromian.

As for the other thing. You obviously dont get the point.
I am Makedonian, therfor I am Greek. As if I was Cretan, I would still be Greek, Thessalian the same, Epirot the same Peloponessian the same, Thracian the same, Aegean islander the same, Ionian islander the same.
We are all Greeks and nowhere in the passport writes Greek from Makedonia. Neither yours says American Sioux (for example).
Makedonia isnt another ethnicity or country, foreign to Greece, its just one of the parts of Greece, so why should my passport say such a thing?

On the other hand, you cant name a region something that it isnt. If you really are interested in the issue, then you would know that Makedonia is called by times immemorable, the area of today's Northern Greece that is also called Makedonia. The part that is northern than the Greek borders was never a part of the Makedonian lands, it became a part of the Kingdom of Makedonia after the Makedonian kings conquests. But historically it never was Makedonian, just a conquered country.
Now some people want to call that place Makedonia. Not only they dont know history, but they also dont know geography. Ouside Greek borders there is only a small 7-10% of the original Makedonian lands, so why exactly a country that has no relation whatsoever be called something that has no relation with and on top, that same name is an historical, traditional, etc etc everything, Greek asset?

See, this is not a matter of anything else rather than preventing the nationalism from expanding outside the borders of a state that has shown in the past in many instances, that it uses it with any chance it gets for any reason that it can.
We cant allow nationalism and irredentism to grow in the Balkans and even more, on the expence of our history, heritage, ethnicity, tradition and so on.


And for the fyromians in here.

Some days ago, your PM received an award from world bank, and also viited the New York stock market.
Now I am sure you all read the news. But did any of you see an actual photo of the events?
Because I feel that you havent.
What is it about those photos? They all mention the fyrom with its correct name, and Gruevski was very happy with it. Even the award was properly carved. Dont believe me? Check these photos and then let me know what you think of your fighter PM:

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/free-speech-macedonia-forum/7333-gruevski-recognises-fyrom-fyrom.html

Before you start spoutting about the site, let me say that the site is of no interest. The photos are :)

@19 Risto.

"Once mighty and great Greece is run by corrupt politicians"
And poor fyrom isnt, thats why they needed a second round of voting, to ensure it :)

"has become nothing more than a puppet of the West"
Right. That why we opposed the usa plans and pressure on us and put a veto on fyromian nato entry. Because we are their puppets.

"Macedonia, which didn't belong to the Greeks until 1912"
Exactly the same year that we liberate it from the Ottomans.

"Greeks
turning their backs on their Orthodox neighbors who share
so much history is shameful."
No we dont. We are very close to our Orthodox neighbours the Serbs and the Bulgarians who share so much history. I fail to see any other Orthodox nation in the vicinity :)

"Just like Bush used 9/11 to incite a patriotic ferver in the US to distract its citizens while it got away with whatever it wanted,
Greek nationalist politicians are using this issue to distract the Greek people from the God knows what needs to be done in that country."
Now, replace "greek" in that sentnce with "fyromian" and you have the full picture :)

"are focused on bettering their future as a nation"
Correction. They are not a nation. They are many nations. Serbs, Bulgarians, albanians, Turks, Greeks, Roma etc etc.

"Anyway, I'd rather be in NEW York than York any day of the week."
Bon voyage :)

Hey greek brothers, were behind you...

MACEDONIA IS GREECE.

(NapredMakedonija, 18 June 2008 13:05)

No one should go no where.

But teh political issues that we have can be solved only and only if we give a clear name and surname to the issues.

FYROM has nothing to do with native civilisation and this is insult even for the intelligence of a 10 old student.

As well as Kosova and other parts of north and west Macedonia that have nothing to do with the states which part are/were.

If we see each other in teh eyes and start talking sincerely to each other we will find that there is plenty of room in Balkans for everyone- actually to much- consider that FYROM territorially is bigger than Belgium but has only 2M of ppl. OK I am not saying that some one has too much than the other- no movement of ppl but just want to emphasis hat we are actually arguing for nothing.

Watch teh density of population in teh Balkans. The highest is the Albanian. But again much less that teh one of the western European countries. The Serbian is double of the Albanian and still want to have Kosovo or something of Kosovo.

What is the issue of the name of Macedonia- there is no issue there. It’s the US and EU that fear that FYROM will go on Russian side that lives this issue open- historically there is no issue there. Why do you provoke with naming the Airport of Skopje Alexander the Great- what do you share with Alexander: language? Culture? Folklore? What?? Nothing. Why you should feel offended if someone tales this to you? It’s simply a fact.

This doesn’t mean that you are worth less than others or with less dignity than other nation s in the Balkans. It is simply is the way of going through of this artificial and in essence inexistent problems.

As you said many years have passed many things have changed so why not accepting New Macedonia? The old was dead at least 1,000 years before Slavs arrived in the Balkans. So the word New is perfectly OK. Just accept it and let’s move forward.

Even the Russian academy of science recognised that Ukrainians and Macedonians are the newst Slavic nation- so where is the problem???

@25 ben

"What I don't understand is why you Greeks don't keep the same principle stance in the Kosova/Serbia issue???"

Sorry ben but I fail to understand the connection. Unless you are implying that albanians have anything to do with the Kossovo area, which is absolutely hilarius historically speaking.
Albanians were a small part (one tribe out of many) of the greater Illyrian family of tribes, residing only at those mountains to the west of the Prespes lakes.
This makes both of you Serbs and albanians, immigrants to the area of Kossovo not natives.
On the other hand of the other hilarius argument that you are Illyrians (which is in a very big dispute nowadays anymore with scientific proof that the albanians werent even inhabitants of the region, but immigrants from the Kaspian), I really want to ask you this.
Lets suppose you are descendants of Illyrians. Why do you take that much pride in that, since the Illyrian history is almost an empty book in the Balkans history. And why dont you call yourselves Illyrians then, if you are so proud about it?
And I mention Illyrians because that would be the only reason and argument for you to claim the Kossovo area as yours historically speaking.

Unless you are not putting it that far back and you are reffering to sometime before the arrival of the Slavs in the area. In that spirit, you are right, you were there some years before them maybe.

@23 nared

" i Believe Switzerland is not in th EU?? "
And you mean that your plan is to become Switzerland? lol.... good luck

@26 napred
Noone said that all immigrants should go anywhere. What we, at least, say is that noone should try and steal the other ones history and heritage and instead, embrace your own and honor it. Why is it that you are ashamed of your own heritage? You are Slavs, Bulgarians, Turks, Greeks, Roma, albanians. What is your problem accepting it other than the propaganda and the brain washing you have suffered since Tito's times?

To Steve:

Steve I can assure you that Greece has nothing to fear from the Albanians even if they want to cause trouble!

Greece is a much stronger country and I can guarantee you that if the Albanians try to cause any trouble to Greece, the response will be so hard that they will be deleted from the balkan area!

Even the albanian state will not support separatists against Greece. They are too scared to do that, because they would know the consequences!

So don't put FYROM and Greece in the same basket! FYROM has every reason to fear the albanian element because they have 1/3 of population ethnic albanians, and they have absolutely no power to prevent a possible civil war.

Greece has no albanian minorities in her land (only economic immigrants) and it is 100 times stronger economically and militarily than Albanians.

So don't worry about Greece. Just worry about your little FYROM.

(Steve, 18 June 2008 18:10)

quite immature this maxima from you Steve- telling me who I am and to whom my land belongs ;)

Hilarious when you start saying teh 25% issue (thanks for quantifying;) and than say whos land is to whom by contradicting your self.
I guess you still have a long way on your studies. Good luck.

(Nikitas, 18 June 2008 15:26)

Nikitas, there is no doubt in Albanian Illyrian culture. Only to the one with political opportunistic goals that fact is tempted to be put into question.

It’s our language, culture, tradition, clothes, folklore that says who we are- Illyrians. My God is Zot today as it was Zeus in the past- it’s only the ignorance and political opportunism that is issue here.

Anyhow, are the Srbs Slavs or not, Nikitas???? ;)

To Steve:

The only country that could in any way harm Greece is Turkey. It is the only country in the region that has similar military forces. But not similar economic strenght!

Don't hope that we will fight the 3 countries together! We don't want and we don't need to fight your country or Albania. And Greece and Albania have good relations right now, you should know that...

If some albanian extremists have plans against Greece, certainly the official Albanian state does not.

So, be sure that if Greece wanted to harm FYROM it could do it easily... and drastically in less than a week! But we don't want to do so. Turkey is Greece's real enemy and noone else.

FYROM cannot be taken seriously as an enemy. The Luxemburg army is more powerful than them!

@38 Risto
Please stop being naive.
Of course there were Greeks that fought for and against communism in the civil war. Besides if they were all fighting for communism, against whom would there be a civil war?

And also. If those "macedonians" fought in the Greek civil war, doesnt this mean that they are Greeks? Otherwise it wouldnt be a civil war, it would be "regular" war :)

And what do you mean "they agreed to fight with the Greeks"?
They fought because they were Greeks :)


"with no minority rights as MACEDONIANS in Greece"
And why exactly should they have minority rights? Which one is their minority? Ex-communists (that part I mean)? Sorry, thats not an ethnic minority, a social or civil or political minority maybe :)
Or maybe you are implying that all Greek regions should give their people minority rights? Ok then, Thessalians as Greks should ahve minority rigths, Cretans as Greeks should have minority rights, Makedonians as Greeks should have minority rights and so on. What kind of twisted logic is that?????

"despite agreeing to surrender their Macedonian names for Greek ones"
Wait. I thought that your propaganda was that they were forced to change their names, not agree on it. You realy have to make up your mind, you are confusing me :)

To Ben:

Ben, please be more precise when you talk about history, especially to a greek.

Yes it is true, according to most historians that the ancient Illyrians are connected to modern albanians. Yes it is true.

It is also true that these people were consider as "barbarians" by the anciet Greeks, and they did not have written vocabulary or language.

You see, the ancient Greeks had a clear distinction about which tribes were barbarians, located at the balkan penisuila at north of Greece:

They were the Illyrians, the Danubians (modern romanians are supposed to have some ethnic links with them) and also the Thracian - phyrigians who had a different oral language than Greek, by were absorbed by Greeks later.

There are the exact three ancient tribes that were located at north of Greece and were supposed "barbarians - non greek" by tens of greek and roman historians.

Now, to say that modern Greek has northing to do with ancient Greek, only exposes your ignorance and nothing else. 70% of the modern Greek language and 90% of the modern Greek grammar is IDENTICAL to the ancient Greek!

It is nice to try and explore your roots, by please try to be more educated next time you mention historical reasoning - and especially for others. It is not good to expose yourself that way.

@40 ben

"pls explain me why the what is called modern Greek has nothing to do with teh nacient Greek neither in syntax or grammar??? "

Actually modern Greek is almost the same as ancient Greek in ways of grammar and syntax. The words themselves are almost identical, the roots of the words havent changed at all.
If a Greek stands in front of an ancient stele, he can read perfectly the inscription.

Now ben please tell me. Is there any such thing as a stele written in ancient Illyrian that you can read, at all?
See, this is our difference. We didnt immigrate here and we still follow the linguistic values and rules and everything of our ancestors, in a modernised way. I am wondering, which other nation of the Balkan region has any, ANY, ancient inscription written in its "own" language, that can be read by today's residents of the area other than the Greeks?

ben (40): "Now pls explain me why the what is called modern Greek has nothing to do with teh nacient Greek neither in syntax or grammar???"

You're not doing yourself any favours here. Anyone who knows anything about Greece, knows that the Greek (Hellenic to put it correctly) language is the longest contiuous language in the world with over 5000 years of history. It has evolved continuously and into different dialects. Ancient Greek is as intelligible to me as modern Greek.

Maybe you should try to spend more time exploring your own roots rather than trying so hard to disprove ours.

And what's all this about Illyrians? Why do modern day Albanians aspire to be like the Illyrians, who didn't have any known written language, very little craft and no significant legacy to speak of?

Write your own destiny. It's time for the residents of the Balkans to stop hating each other.

@42 ben

"but unfortunately I have Nikitas."
Lol... that was a good one, really.
But I can see the desparation here. It is really unfortunate for you (in general) that you have as neighbours people that are into their history, heritage, culture, tradition and they just dont let it fall in "barbarians" hands without a fight.
You see, Greeks were here, Greeks are here and Greeks will forever be here since this is our land and will always be. And we take pride in preserving our history and heritage, contrary to others that just want to go the easy way and steal foreign history.
Sorry if you see us like that, sorry if we are aware of our role and past, sorry but we are not givin git up.

@ 3 - hey pavle, actually the macedonian government is currently in the process of negotiating a deal with montenegro in regards to shifting transits of goods via sea from montenegro! Hence any future blockades would be irrelevant, thus bring back our flag and close the border.. we dont need nato/eu, their is nothing democratic about greece and the eu.. For christ sakes cops still beat people up people in the eu, Furthermore we cant change what we are! We are macedonians, perhaps you would like to implement tactics used by the nazis in world war ll in order to achieve your objectives?

Nikitas,

The world community (minus Greece) already refers to the people of the Republic of Macedonia ("New Macedonia) as Macedonian. adding the word "new" will not alter that. Greece can't make other refer to them as "something-Macedonians". They have been called Macedonians for so long that it will stick. And by the way where is ancient or Old Zealand located?

Macedonia should further align itself with its Orthodox brothers in Russia and Serbia and not capitulate on the name. Once mighty and great Greece
is run by corrupt politicians and has become nothing more than a puppet of the West and dumping ground for tourists.

The only pure part of Greece is the north, Macedonia, which didn't belong to the Greeks until 1912.

Greece is in NO way threated by tiny Macedonia and Greeks
turning their backs on their Orthodox neighbors who share
so much history is shameful.

Just like Bush used 9/11 to incite a patriotic ferver in the US to distract its citizens while it got away with whatever it wanted,
Greek nationalist politicians are using this issue to distract the Greek people from the God knows what needs to be done in that
country.

The people of Macedonia are focused on bettering their future as a nation (which is a basic human right) and all Greeks want to do is precent that and debate the past because it's all they have.

Anyway, I'd rather be in NEW York than York any day of the week.

The Greek government has little choice, given that the situation has become so politicised, and they are completely in the right here. The Macedonians continue to produce maps, documents and statements which attack the status quo in northern Greece.
The US needs the airfield and other facilities in Skopje to support our rape and theft of Kosovo, so the inclination is to support the Macedonian position and make the Greeks seem as if they are stubborn. I've always found Greek stubbornness to be one of their most admirable traits. I pray they don't give in to the sweet promises of the ignorant whores in our State Department.

#5

Hey "NapredMakedonija", I don't care if your goverment signs any deals with Montenegro or anyone else! And of course I also don't care if you claim that you are macedonian, you can do it freely!

Hey Pavle I don't recall raising queries regarding how you feel, e.g whether you care or not, your opening line is a sad indication of the mentality of many people in the bakans hence the problems we find ourselves in, of course you don't care, you only see the world through your own thought processes.. A prime example indeed!

I was merely pointing out the fact that the goverment of Macedonia is making contingency plans as they are expecting the worse in regards to their relations with the Athenians.. hence i honestly believe that this government will not change the name, the people voted the Gruevski goverment in hands down with a majority.. they are supportive of the current tactics.

P.S As for the cheap shot regarding NAZISM.. please refrain from such i'll informed comments, for starters how would the Macedonians gain by killing Albanians? the Gruevski government won a majority hence hypothetically it need not form a coalition with anyone else!! + killing people in front or our investors is not so wise dont you agree? However imposing your will on others resembles the NAZIS, after all we are not imposing anything on you guys.. furthermore Nikola Gruevski's grandfather lays buried in Greece near Florina under the name Nikolais Gruios, he fought and died for Greece against the Italians in World War II yet he's real name is not permitted on his tomb stone.. now if thats not facism then i dont know what is.. So please, we are happy to hear your valid arguements but please refrain from any form of propaganda..

@NIkitas no we really dont need the EU to run our lives?? i Believe Switzerland is not in th EU?? nor is Australia for that fact yet we are doing fine.. we just need intelligent people to run our country, obviously we can't help external factors who seek our downfull in order to achieve their objectives.

since they are just immigrants and not natives.
(Nikitas, 17 June 2008 18:13)

Nikitas & other Greeks:

I fully understand and agree with you. FYROM has nothing to do with the native civilisation...

What I don't understand is why you Greeks don't keep the same principle stance in the Kosova/Serbia issue???

Same identical thing like the case of FYROM/Greece: natives and immigrants.

If FYROM are Slavs immigrant what are Serbs??? aren't they Slavs too???

This your double standard two face politics is just out of any reasonable comprehension.

Be principle and fair- not opportunist.

Macedonia should further align itself with its Orthodox brothers in Russia and Serbia and not capitulate on the name.
(Risto, 18 June 2008 00:30)

Risto there is a strong current opinion in FYROM on this line.

That’s why there is the delay in the recognition in Kosova;
Uncooperativeness with Greece in the issue of name;
Fort the first time in the history FYROM did not meet the democratic criteria for the free and democratic elections;
There are is clearly lack of engagement in meeting the EU and NATO standards;

Well Risto you and some of your politicians may work on this agenda and you might have a success – but before you will have to deposit the half of the territories that you own today, to Albania.

I hope that this politics will once and for all open the eyes to the corrupted Greek politicians and above all their Church and that they will realise once and for all that what we have today is the same identical thing that we had many centuries ago: natives and Slavic immigrants.

Hopefully this will open their eyes in a way that the natives align in one block instead of pursuing opportunistic politics with Serbia.

Fact is that Greece has been portrayed as the "enemy" throughout all this by practically everyone in the former Yugoslav part of geographic Macedonia. This should be sufficient in explaining the Greek veto. Can you afford to be a sport and admit that much? Even your great benefactor George W. Bush warned you not to expect him to turn against an old and traditional ally. But as much effort as you have spent in "proving" that there is not any connection between Greece and Macedonia, you are very tight lipped on your own connection to ancient Macedonia. Perhaps Macedonians were not Greeks, if by that we mean the tribes of lower Hellas, but it is accepted that they were Hellenic if culture has anything to do with ethnic identity. Macedonians/Highlanders to those Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians etc. in their south. Alexander did not conquer Greece, Alexander united the Greeks. What Alexander spread was not the Macedonian civilization, but the Greek civilization and this period in history is termed as Hellenistic, not Macedonian. A Greek plot? I doubt it. To this day they have not managed to be accepted as Hellenes (their constitutional name) and they have to make do with their designation as Greeks.

But where exactly do you fit in the picture in Alexander's Macedonia? What makes the "Star of Vergina" your national symbol? Let us assume that Alexander was neither Greek nor Hellene, but of an entirely separate and pure breed that you claim exclusively for yourselves today. Also let's put aside the big chunk of your population that is having no problem describing themselves as Albanians rather than Macedonians and arguably be happier in being part of a greater Albania than a greater Macedonia. Can you explain this "identity" of yours under Greek threat nevertheless? If not Hellenic, was Alexander a Slav, which would make him your ancestor? You fail, I am afraid, to offer any cultural affinity to an identity you trace back 25 centuries. Complements of Tito all you are left with is a chunk of real estate that once belonged to a great Macedonian, bearing a Greek name, worshipping Greek gods, being tutored by a Greek philosopher, sleeping with Homer's Iliad under his pillow. What part of this great Macedonian do you identify with? what part of your "identity" are those inhabiting the part of "your" country under Greek occupation are trying to deprive you of?

Through history geographical Macedonia was inhabited by numerous "nationalities" and claimed by many nations. Following the Balkan Wars, 51% went to Greece, 38% to Serbia, 9% to Bulgaria and the remaining to others. In the late 40s Tito, a Croat, named the Serbian part "Macedonia" setting his eyes on Greek Macedonia and that's what you inherited. What does Tito's Macedonia, your Macedonia, have to do with Alexander's Macedonia, or Greek Macedonia or Bulgarian Macedonia today? Say "nothing" and tomorrow you are a NATO member.

In Bucharest Greece was not isolated as you wish to believe, unless you believe your own propaganda. So, Turkey was on your side. Congratulations! Later this year you will try the EU. Turkey will not be there. Greece will be.

Macedonia should be Macedonia, just like Kosovo is Kosovo ! That's my opinion.

Greetings

The Ohrid airport has been renamed "St. Paul the Apostle", at the same time as Skopje's airport was rebaptized "Alexander the Great". On the Ohrid tourist web site, one can find a claim that Macedonia is biblical country, what with Lydia, staying at the time in Philippi (near Kavala, Eastern Macedonia, Greece) being the first "Macedonian and European Christian woman". Yet she was from Thyatera, which was one of the seven churches in Asia (Minor) in the book of Revelation. It is also stated "In Biblical Macedonia, every path leads to Ohrid". Paul the Apostle got lost, and never set foot in the place. So why name an airport after him ?
Here again, the truth is stretched by referring to events that took place elsewhere, but apparently necessary to lend gloss to the glory of the current FYRoMacedonia. As if Ohrid's history is not enough already (it does pretty well compared to Athens, Ohio). It is this endemic appropriation of glorious historical events which took place elsewhere which apparently contributes mightily to the "stability" of FYRoM, if I understand the argument made by some. I think it does not, nor does the ardent desire of some to re-fight the Greek civil war in their favour, or the recuperation of ancient Macedonia. The area of FYRoM corresponds mostly to ancient Paeonia, conquered by Philip II of Macedon, with the northwest part falling in ancient Dardania, and the west part (including Ohrid, formerly ancient Lihnidos) labelled on some maps Pelagonia. Besides, Alexander's tutor, Aristotle, born in ancient Macedonia, is one of the most influential Greek philosophers. So I can understand why Greeks are fed up with this stuff. Trying to undo the results of the Greek civil war, and Tito's failed attempt to use the Macedonian question to get to Thessaloniki is not helpful either. It is better left alone, and digging it up, such as done by leading politicians in Skopje, does not advance their cause. The continuous harping on "stability" of FYRoM deliberately ignores the mentality of some people living there, who seem to need to reinvent themselves with someone else's history. Perhaps they could stabilize their minds by prospering on their own efforts, and so contribute themselves to the stability of the Balkans. Greece is helping anyway, by investing a healthy amount of money, and transferring skills. This cannot be ignored, and promotes "stability". Recuperating someone else's history does not, and implicitly justifying this by ridiculing Greece's worries does not either.
Press reports have it that Luxembourg supported Greece's position, thereby making nonsense of some people’s remark about the situation there w.r.t. Belgian Luxembourg. Even cool heads from Iceland apparently supported Greece. So why does a group worrying about "international crisis" continue peddling their alarming statements? Just to give them self-importance?

@34 Steve
For some people, like you, war is the only way to solve disputes.The immaturity alone of this solution and argument, is a indicator enough of how it should be treated.
Although i know its a waste of time to even type an answer, I will, because kids need to learn stuff from such boards.
Steve, neither Turkey nor albania can or have any legitimacy in waging war against Greece. Why? They are (albania soon will be) nato members. This means that they are obliged to keep peace and if they dont, they get handed their butts by the rest of the alliance members. This means: No war with albania, No war with Turkey.
And in any case fyrom is no military or any other kind of target for us, so... sorry no wars coming from Greece under any kind of democratically elected goverment.
I strongly point again that it remains a childish argument the "3 against 1 war" argument.

"remember during the Greek civil wars how they got conned into fighting WITH the Greeks and then got backstabed."
So the fyromians remember what exactly? How the Greek communist party under the guidance of Stalin and with the backing of Tito, promised the Slavic speaking Greeks to fight for the communist cause and not for the liberation cause?
You know, thank you. Thank you for sheding light on this and help my case.
Because, you know, when we Greeks argue that it was Tito's creation the whole "macedonian concious" fairy tale, we base it on exactly what you said. That the communist party with the help of Tito and the promise of a "free" part for them (the communists, not the macedonians) lurred the Slavic speaking Greeks that followed communism into this game. So once again, Thank you Steve for helpin me out on this one :)

@35 ben
Serbs are Slavs. And?
About the Illyrians thing, dont push it too hard, please. Its not the place nor the time to discuss it. But I can tell you this.
Your language, culture and tradition have nothing in common with ancient Illyria, yet. Not for any other reason, but because there isnt any kind of clue so far, about what was the language, culture and tradition of the Illyrians.

I can give you strong arguments about that, but as i said, its not the place nor the time for it :)
If it pleases you to be called Illyrian, go ahead, its ok, since Illyrians werent Greeks :)

(Pavlos, 19 June 2008 14:03)

Pavlos in principle you are right.

And I hope you will agree with me that neither you modern Greeks nor we, modern Albanians have not much in common with our ancestors, unfortunately. I wish to have the ancient Greeks as my neighbor but unfortunately I have Nikitas. So please refer to my e-mail #27.

What I was referring is a today political issue and unprincipled position of you Greeks- they are Slav immigrants when it suits to you but when is our up to us than you don’t mind anymore the history and the consequences of the historical facts. Although, today your FM declared that Greece wouldn't mind at all if Kosova Gov/t expresses desire to open an 'office' in Athens.

As far as the barbarian term- I am very easy to let you know that I don’t perceive it at all as offensive- the Illyrian culture is gaining place in the scientific community everyday more and more and many facts are coming into the light.

To Ben:

You seem to be an open-minded person, so I know that I can communicate with you.

You said that you don't believe that we modern Greeks or you modern Albanians have so much in common with our ancestors.

I must tell you that the two cases are not so similar.

Modern Greeks share the same language with ancient Greeks (almost identical as I explained you before), share the same ancient traditions and customs until today, have the same physical appearence according to ancient greek pictures with ancient greeks, and some of them until today... also share the same religion! (the 12 Gods religion is still followed by some Greeks...).

On the other hand, the ancient Illyrian tribe did not have a written language or vocabulary - so nobody can know if modern albanian have any similarities with that language.

Also did not have any ancient monuments, building or artifacts to know what kind of traditions they had or how they looked like.

The only describtions about the ancient Illyrians come from the ancient Greek and also some Roman writers and scholars!

So only from these information, and from those describtions it is assumed that this ancient tribe is the ancestors of modern albanians.

However as I explained you, it is much clearer that ancient Greeks shared way TOO much more characteristics with modern Greeks, than the ancient Illyrians with modern Albanians, that's why internationally modern Greeks are assumed direct descedants of the ancient Greeks.

The word "barbarian" I agree with you, doesn't mean something bad. It is the word that the ancient Greeks just used to describe the non-greeks. Nothing bad about it.

And I finish by telling you that I strongly believe that the ancient Illyrians are descednats of modern albanians, mostly because of the way they are described by ancient Greek writers. (Red skin, angle face ...similar to the modern albanian people).

Herodotus gives a very good describtion of the ancient Illyrian tribe, you can take the book and have a look.

Pavlos & Nikitas,

First of all I'm American. Secondly, one thing that I don't understand about the Greek/Hellas/Macedonian countries Pick ONE name and the confusion will disappear.

Pavlos & Nikitas,

I guess what I'm asking is are you from Greece, Hellas or Macedonia ans What does it say on your Passport?

It's ironic that modern greeks which also have nothing to do with ancient macedonians but the geographical proximity, are denying the slav population the claim of Macedonia based on the same premises.

"Once mighty and great Greece is run by corrupt politicians"
And poor fyrom isnt, thats why they needed a second round of voting, to ensure it :)

At least minorities (Albanians) in Macedonia are able to vote in their own language and vote people of their ethnicity into government. But yes, democracy is messy (especially new ones like Macedonia). Greece doesn’t even recognize let alone give equal rights to minorities. Ethnic Macedonians in the province that bears their name have no rights. Greece is a fake democracy. And this issue is only shedding light on that fact. So I for one, hope it is dragged on for as long as possible:P

#25..

Ben,

Regarding Immigrants and Natives, what are you saying? should all Slavic speaking people pack up and go back to Ukraine? do you want land rights? shall we give our lands to Albania?perhaps we should all go back to Africa as man evolved from Africa as per the scientific version? or for the religious people is god Albanian/Greek? I think it's high time you go back to Albania as you are immigrants in Macedonia and Kosovo, slavic speaking people have been in the Balkans for 1400 years.. obviously the Slavic tribes merged and assimulated with the local people hence im pretty confident that every Albanian and Greek on this forum has Slavic blood in their viens :)

Macedonians don't need Albanians, they should let them partition 25% of the country,(north-west)join it with Albania.

The Albanians are not finished when they have their Kosova and north-west Macedonia. Greece & Montenegro are on the agenda LAST. So you can laugh at the poor Macedonians but soon you will have to deal with the same problem.

As for the Macedonian name issue, it will be solved soon.

Out of all the occupiers of Macedonia, the Athenians were and are the most brutal out of all. Serbs and Turks were very decent in comparison to what the Athenians have done thus far. (atleast Serbs and Turks recognized the people they are conquering as Macedonians).

If the Macedonians say they are Greek but speak a Slavic language, the Athenians would have no problem and even recommend they join the country of Greece so they can continue being brothers.

Lets all hope history doesn't repeat itself in the Balkans and another war starts. Hopefully Kosovo doesn't lead Serbia into another armed conflict, because this time around it will be a ripple effect throughout the whole of the Balkans, including Athens.

MACEDONIA IS MACEDONIAN
KOSOVO IS SERBIAN

To Pavlos

Athens may be more powerful than Albania, but it is not more powerful than Albania, Macedonia and Turkey. You see my dear Pavlos, there are other countries in the region that can't stand Athens propaganda, and they are your enemies just as much as the Albanians and Macedonians.

Good luck fighting all 3, and don't count on Serbia to kill Macedonians to help you.

The Macedonians remember during the Greek civil wars how they got conned into fighting WITH the Greeks and then got backstabed. They remember real good.

To Nikitis (37):

I believe Steve (34)referred to the Macedonians who as CITIZENS of Greece, fought WITH the Greek army AGAINST the communists.

But after the war ended, the ones that survived STILL were (ARE) treated as second class citizens with no minority rights as MACEDONIANS in Greece (despite agreeing to surrender their Macedonian names for Greek ones). If that’s not back stabbing I don’t know what is.

Even in the US, people of color, who fought in wars, eventually gained equal rights.

What kind of country STILL treats its veterans this way? Greece. That's who.

Your generalized statement linking Macedonian identity to communism is pure rudeness and arrogance.

Illyrians werent Greeks :)
(Nikitas, 18 June 2008 23:03)

That's for sure Nikitas.

Now pls explain me why the what is called modern Greek has nothing to do with teh nacient Greek neither in syntax or grammar???

Nikitas, be reasonable, I understand that love is blindness but lets be serious for a moment.

As "your" ancient historians and philosophers diligently have noticed the arrival of teh Slavs in teh Balkans on VII- X cent. and now we scientifically know that this happened, it is quite reasonable to presume that they would've diligently as well noticed the "arrival" of the new "immigrants" Albanians- moreover because these "immigrants" were not modest at all to settle in a corner of teh Balkans but they "arrived" in the Adrictic and Jonian costs.

But there is no such document Nikitas.

(Nikitas, 19 June 2008 16:50)

Who is putting into question your patriotism? me surely NO.

Teh irony was there to highlight the fact that you mentioned the Albanians as immigrants and you don't have an answer on:

As "your" ancient historians and philosophers diligently have noticed the arrival of teh Slavs in teh Balkans on VII- X cent. and now we scientifically know that this happened, it is quite reasonable to presume that they would've diligently as well noticed the "arrival" of the new "immigrants" Albanians- moreover because these "immigrants" were not modest at all to settle in a corner of teh Balkans but they "arrived" in the Adrictic and Jonian costs. #40

And that you are shameless in pursuing your double standards approach:

'they are Slav immigrants when it suits to you but when is up to us than you don’t mind anymore the history and the consequences of the historical facts'#40.

So Nikitas what's your comment on this. Its unequivocally double standard approach. It's teh lack of honesty to admit it.

I have no problem in agreeing with Pavlos #41.

To the Athenians on this board:

If the Macedonians (living in FYROM) submit and say "We are Greeks speaking a Slavic language, then the Maceodnian issue would be solved. Macedonia will be allowed to call itself Macedonia so long they admit their culture and ethnicity is Greek.

Since the Macedonians (historically speaking) have never submitted to Athenian pressure for thousands of years, it will not happen. Whether they speak Enlgish, modern Greek, modern Macedonian or Turkish, it doesn't matter, the fact is they are still Macedonians.

I understand how you feel they may be "stealing" your history, but just because something was written with the Greek alphabet, doesn't mean it was Greek.

Besides, a Macedonian can read Greek very easily.

(Pavlos, 19 June 2008 19:51)

Pavlos I am not anthropologist, historian. So when I said that the modern Greeks or modern Albanians have not so much in common with our ancestors I meant on the values and the culture of the ancestors and the modern descendents.

And this I didn't refer only to the moderns Greeks and Albanians but instead none of the today’s societies have even reached the half of the cultural vales and the open-minded society that the ancient Greeks had and with some hand Illyrians had.

I mean the ancient Greeks were sending the prisoners in the theatre so no Greek would have inferior culture, so to say- go figure something like that to happen in today Greece or even what is known as more 'consolidated democracies'- can't even imagine in the today Albania.

In this light go figure how much in common with the ancestors we have.

I think that you are all getting confused about what this issue is all about and therefore running around in circles.

I am Macedonian, I speak Macedonian and I have a Macedonian culture. This is who I am. This is my identity.

You can quote a million historians and another million politicians but I will not change, nay I CANNOT change who I am.

What you are trying to do is get me to change my identity. I assure you that you are fighting a losing battle. Right will always triumph over might.

The sooner you accept this the sooner we can move forward.