Kosovo constitution takes effect

Well done is TWO words. Ten years of poverty have obviously hit your education system hard.
(Zoran, 16 June 2008 12:05)

Actually Zoran, “Well done Kosova” (as Dugi) said, is a THREE word sentence.

Since you shifted the forum to maths I thought I can join the debate.

Zoran, it looks that knowledge in maths is not up to scratch in your region either.

Zoran, it is pure arrogance picking on grammar errors in the forum where English is not the mother language of most of the readers in the forum.

Also Zoran, please tell us what prosperity have you had in the last 10 years (I am having difficulties thinking of a single one).

ONE WORD - Well done Kosova...

Serbia "should not even take note of such things". - Jeremic

It looks to me bit anxious Jeremic ;)

The process of democratization of the Kosovar society will continua EU is there to help.

It's strange how to teh Serbian "democrats" slips away the fact that the Serbian language is granted by K Constitution as official language in the entire country- a privilege that no other minority (or better micro-minority) in the world has.

It passes through teh fact that the Kosova's leaders speak in Serbian to the K-Serbs without any complexes.

We never had the pleasure to hear a Serbian leader to come in Kosova and speak in Albanian to the ppl there.

This is what makes us different, this is what makes impossible the life together.

Now it's obvious why the Albanians are deluded in believing that Kosovo is independent - "Dugi : ONE WORD - Well done Kosova..."

Well done is TWO words. Ten years of poverty have obviously hit your education system hard.

Kosovo i Metohija je Srbija
(Mr. David J. Jones, 16 June 2008 15:25)

Mr. David J Jones.

The sentence was “Well done Kosova” (get the abacus and read the first comment).
And this is a three letter work.
Assuming from your name I would expect you to know that.
Well, if in your opinion the sentence above is a two letter sentence I rest my case.

And Mr David, Kosova will never be Serbia.


(Zoran, 16 June 2008 15:27)

If you are to correct somebody (as you did with the first posting) do it correctly.
So, if you quoted “Well done”, you quoted wrong.
The sentence still stands as it was written.
Now Zoran, which part of the plain English that you are referring to did I miss?
If you want to elaborate on the contents of the comment you can do so.

Now back to prosperity.
Zoran, Kosovo is 120 days old.
Judge us in a year (or come looking for a better paid job in Kosovo).

Er, sorry Dugi, that's three words.

The event was a complete failure and is the reason why it was so low-key. The Serbians are having none of this nonsense.

Power should have been transferred from the UN to the EU, the Albanians were supposed to have full control over the province and the Ahtisaari plan coming into effect in a ceremony of grandeur!

However, none of that happened or will ever happen and the Albanians are waking up to all of these theatrics! It is not entertaining anymore and the plans are heading for the dump. The independence movement is beginning to implode while Serbians and non-Albanians are forming stronger links with Belgrade.

The party is over my dear Albanians. Wake up!

"...and contains all of the Ahtisaari document's original provisions."

This statemen is not quite correct for the draft Constitution has been worked out way down in 2004 by The Public International Law and Policy Group (USA). So Ahtisaari's fantasies were just an outside cover.

At a closer look the American hands are more evident. Who else could write down Article 24 for the region where absolute majority are Muslims and Catholics ! This Article is as well in the favor of sexual minorities which would never occur to an Albanian. K-Albanian project is totally ignored by the Islamic World and this will only add to their confidence.

Same with Articles 25 and 26 to legalize abortions. At a closer look you will find here guarantees for :

1. right for life after the birth ...
2. right to control life and the body according to the law ...

Altogether it is called right for abortion.

Also Ahtisaari who represents neutral Finland could never write the Article where it is said that international military presence is possible only under NATO command ! To say nothing that none of the existing Constitutions legalizes foreign intervention.

Put together with the Articles running that local authorities are obliged to "close cooperation" with international missions it all composes a colonial treaty but not a Constitution of an independent state !

.

Ten years of poverty have obviously hit your education system hard.
(Zoran, 16 June 2008 12:05)

Eh my dear Zoki, ten years you say.

We say that only in 1976 teh "democratic" Yugo/Serbia allowed us (3 million ppl) to have the first University in our language.

The same "democratic" Yugo/Serbia than after 5 years in 1981 made the smae Uni (of which you can immagine teh quality- school for minorities in a developing country) reduced it into half- many Profs were arrested and others banded to teach.

This was not enough for you- your VOZD=Leader Slobo only 8 years after in 1989 closed totally this famous Uni.

Now basically since 2000 ppl start to educate and some mistakes happen.

But NEVER will happen the mistake of ACKNOWLEDGING where this ignorance comes from and whose merit is.

With regard to Zoran, think you guys are being a trifle harsh - was primarily making a joke at 'Dugi's espense.

(peter, sydney, 16 June 2008 16:47)

Peter,

We are all up for a joke.
Without them it just gets boring.
I am pretty sure that everybody in this forum is happy to accept jokes in their expense.
I know I am.
However you have to admit that the last Zoran’s last sentence converts the joke (if that was his original intention) to an insult.
Insult to a nation.
Now Peter, that is not a joke any more.
If we all revert to insults, where does that lead?
And how does one respond to an insult?

It's not over yet Fatmir Sejdiu. Let see if you can win a UN seat.

Jevic, its not a competition man who wins what seat. If kosova has the capacitys that are required from a sovereng state and fulfils the duty's as a UN member, they will become a UN member. But believing that Serbia has any power in the UN recognition is naive on your part.

Zoran your rhetoric's are not on any special level either. Just because he misspoke on a topic, that does not make you right. But obviously Serbia was never threatened of extermination, they schools and culture never came under direct threat, so its easy for you to give opinion on things you dont have much comprehension.

ZK UK. maybe the Independence party is over but i dont see any Kosovo celebrations from the Serbian side either.
Just becouse Serbian politicians brainwash you in the UK that does not mean that they are telling you the truth. Soon Montenegro and Macedonia will collapse your dreams, and than what will you say?

Strav, holding to 1244 and war criminals at the same time its already a double standard. Only a Serbian mentality can have it both ways and eat it two. Ridiculous!!

Kosovo is Free, Vojvodina should be next! Why should the radicals force the population who dont want to compromise on a EU future, to drain them with hate speeches and fake moral victories and manipulated history?
Where are the benefits for the majority of people???

No this issue is about to end we have the time to wait for a UN seat no country that seperated could become member of UN in a couple of days. Now Kosova/o has its own constitution and moving forward wilst Serbia and Serbs keep dreamin that Kosova/o will again become part of Serbia. Thats will never happen because it's against the majority of the people Kosova/o

It is great news for us K.Albanians!

We have waited for decades for this to happen!
Now the hard work is waiting and if we work hard and have right attitude,we will be OK.

A message to all doubters:K.Albanians and K.Serbs can live together in Kosovo!
It will work like in marriage,give some,take some,needs plenty of understanding as both sides lost a lot during that bad period in our history!

It is time for Kosovans as well to be part of the rest of Europe,hopefully they will have plenty of help and support from everyone abroad.

That's be positive only for one day and believe me you will feel much better.
Don't do to others something that you don't like others to do to you!!!

Gezuar and Ziveli!!!

Again, B92 keep censoring this...PROUD TO BE ALBANIAN!!!!

(Mr. David J. Jones, 16 June 2008 22:08)

If my response to Zoran was in relation to his analysis of the first comment why should you judge only comment nr. 4 Mr Davis?
Now Mr. Davis, do you really expect me to believe that you are a “fair” person and you send the same number of Kosovo Albanians as you did Kosovo Serbs?
Do you actually expect me to believe that when you sign your comment with “Kosovo is Serbia”?
Do you also expect me to take your word on who performed better in the “training courses you arranged”?
Sorry Mr. Davis, no.
By the way Mr. Davis, English is my 5th language.

the constitution is in the same league as the UDI, Illegal and non binding. It doesn't take Kosovo from Serbia as Resolution 1244 is still in place because it doesn't userp 1244. The same problems will remain.
On a final note, the constitution will not have any effect on the parrallel structures being implemented in the North.

(PJD, 16 June 2008 14:34)

PJD et al. you confuse principles with values- very immature.

first its not teh question of knowing teh language is about the GOOD WILL to USE it.

Secondly, you draw paralels without reflecting that Serbian leadesr have some moral obligation in doing that that I don't think is the case with English/Welsh case that you mention out of nothing.

So pls reflect before that you make draw parallels.

Zoran: read above and read more carefully.

Zoran,
On your comment you said that Serbia has donne a lot better that Kosovo the past 10 years and will continue to outperforme it in the future. Are you already refering to them as two diferent countries?!

strav: this is for you 1244 lets say that you go to a store and you see two prices on one product one cheaper the other one more expencive, you would expect to pay the cheaper one.
See when 1244 was approved it was approved till the outcome of the Kosovo status was finalised. But before that happend the UN in its founding days dictated the Rights of Self Determination(The same conduct that all the country's use to declare their independence including your country strav and Serbia)
See yougoslavia was demolished and the leftover went to Serbia, so we have a great case that there was a greater Serbia. Now forcing people because of a quad digit number it is not fair and the revisions of the laws are in their way(as you see daily more people get in contact with Kosovo in governmental level). Anyway It is a lost cause because if it goes like this not even Serbians would like to live in Serbia let alone Kosovo becoming part of the nightmare that put the Balkans into shame.

I am posting my old - Friday post. I am surprised that I didn't get any comments back from non-Serbian camp. I know if you want to be objective and look somebody in the eye - you need to admit that is fair and true -historical-fact supported post.

So, I am happy that at least by not objecting anything from my post the pro-Albanian posters on this site don't ignore the truth and facts.


"It looks nobody can’t stop long planned scenario of punishing Serbia for not cooperating and accepting global politicks of injustice and bulling – result - UDI will be more recognized DI, it will take more time but it looks inevitable – Deserved – NO, worth wasting more time – probably NOT – Try to get best deal of it – some kind of partition - if still the option.

They tried to do that by force – “humanitarian bombing” and it didn’t worked (if lasted for couple more weeks – EU and US coalition was on brink of collapse) – they tried to save EU collapse and the face too by bringing Russia to convince Serbia to accept and sign peace agreement and resolution 1244 which looked good at the moment – Kosovo stays as integral part of Serbia and guaranteed Serbia sovereignty.

But it showed again that was just one more political trap to achieve US goals by other means, avoiding civilian killings and destruction of non-military targets at costs of braking EU at start of its existence.

Serbian politicians failed to act during last 9 years and sure decades before – but it was communist regime accepting Tito directions to make Serbian dominance weaker and give Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo good foundation at Serbia’s expense. They all should celebrate Tito as their founder and make the biggest monuments of Tito – never to forget his role in achieving their old lived dreams comes true.

So, Serbian politicians failed in confrontation with unjust western speculators and thieves- EU and US politicians. They didn’t have any chance in that fight – but they didn’t do anything smart to make game at least interesting.

That’s all sad – by knowing that all historians and objective outsiders – and objective Albanians know that most- if not all in Czechs documentary are historical facts with some real stories and personal experiences of Serbian population at the time. It should be considered Albanian side and their suffering too – but historical facts stays and should be interesting seeing debate in which historians – real experts in history should look somebody in the eyes and try to discredit the facts – The Serbian sacrifices and suffering from Balkans wars to WWI and WWII and now heading to WWIII for fighting on right side against fascists, various aggressors and ocupators."
(dd, 13 June 2008 14:58)

"It passes through teh fact that the Kosova's leaders speak in Serbian to the K-Serbs without any complexes.

(ben, 16 June 2008 12:30)"

ben,

So your leaders speak Serbian in public. Well, words are easy and cheap to utter. Very reassuring indeed to those K-Serbs who are too afraid still to visit the vandalized graves of their loved ones in Pristina.

Blero,

In your anticipation to attack you made one major flaw, you never read or did not understand what was stated? Zoran was indeed correct in what he wrote. Both grammatically and mathematically, as follows:-

Well done is TWO words. Ten years of poverty have obviously hit your education system hard.
(Zoran, 16 June 2008 12:05)

Zoran was merely stating that even partially the sentence was more than one word.

So please do not attack until you can disseminate the english language thoroughly, or is it that the 10years have affected you also?

Regards.

Kosovo i Metohija je Srbija

The one word, or two or three words by Dugi is neither here nor there, but yours and other Albanians argument about the language spoken in Kosovo, now or 50 years ago, is FLAWED.

It's been stated many, many times on this forum by the Albanians that the Serbians never learnt to speak Albanian, either recently, or 20,30 or 50 years ago.

That is usually the norm in most countries. The UK/Welsh example is a very good example. Most people in the UK don't speak Welsh or Gaelic, two large minority languages. So are the Albanians going to tell the British that they are wrong?

The real problem is that the Albanians have wanted independence for DECADES. This isn't a recent (milosevic) phenomenon. During Tito's time and further back in history, you wanted independence and you've caused a lot of trouble trying to get it.

So you should fully understand when the Serbs fight for their rights and have nothing to do with an Albanian province, even if that means fighting. You've done exactly the same, so don't expect any difference from the Serbs. Serbs and Albanians don't want to live in the same state so you'll just have to accept that you've lost the north (with Trepca) unless you are willing to fight, and it would be hypocritical for the Albanians to do so as they would be trying to subjugate a peopl that don't want Albanian rulers.

Adriano, Kosovo's independence is blocked at the UN by both Russia and China. Whether Macedonia or Montenegro recognise makes little difference - it only shows who are pulling their strings.

The simple fact is, Kosovo's independence is irreversibly blocked and there is nothing anyone can do about it - even if more than 40 nations decide to recognise this illegal pretent puppet entity, it makes little difference.

Blero,

I honestly did not think the education system was that bad in Kosovo. I have sent many Kosovan Albanian employees to the UK on tranining courses but I think you would struggle. Maybe it's because English is a third language for you.

All that was required by you was to read. At no point was comment 1 mentioned only your flawed analysis of comment 4.

Incidentally I am a very fair person and sent statiscally the same number of Kosovan Serbs on the same training courses and guess what.....THEY HAD HIGHER MARKS!!!!

Go Figure.

This is a great day for Kosovo Albanians and I would like to congratulate them. America and EU have helped you to obtain freedom from Slobodan Milosevic, but now is the moment for you and your Pristina elite to leave the imagination and show the good will how to approach Serbia because ONLY with Serbia's yes, Kosovo can become a country in real effect, with a seat in UN, raise funds from MMF, etc etc. Otherwise, Kosovo will repeat the status of Taiwan, not economically unfortunately, and will be splittered in two parts, what effectively is today, and will remain if Albanian elite does not come to terms with the reality.

TO ALL JUST WANTED TO HIGHLIGHT THIS:Assistant U.S. Secretary of State for European and Eurasian issues Daniel Fried congratulated Sejdiu and pledged U.S. aid in developing "an independent, democratic and prosperous Kosovo," a statement from Sejdiu's office said.
--------------------------&
In reaction to calls for a parliament session to debate the latest developments in Kosovo, LDP leader Čedomir Jovanović said his party supported this move, "in order to redefine the state policy on Kosovo", which he says has been "wrong so far"

Čedomir Jovanović should be elected as the PM as its the only way Serbia comes back to earth, there is no way back for Kosova, Serbia needs to be in the EU as Romania said and this is the only way we can all move on. I dont really care about history becouse if we go into that we will never agree, as you know the reality in the ground is as it is and the Kosovars will never again be occupied by anyone.

Ben, this "constitution" that you're talking up spells out in no uncertain terms that you're a multi-ethnic state, yet in the same breat you claim that it is impossible for Albanians and Serbs to live together. So which is it to be?

A constitution guaranteeing "the political equality of all citizens and full respect for internationally-guaranteed human rights".

Any constitution only has meaning if the principles contained in it are respected by the citizenry. And judging by the heirarchy of the K-albanian govt, the acts of it's citizens over the past decade, & even the comments on this website.., there is small chance of that.

And until & if the general population changes it's attitude, K-albanian constitution is only so much worthless paper.


ben:
> It's strange how to teh Serbian "democrats" slips away the fact that the Serbian language is granted by K Constitution as official language in the entire country- a privilege that no other minority (or better micro-minority) in the world has.

And no doubt you also think your pretty new constitution would be all the protection a couple of people would need if they were caught speaking 'official minority serbian language' in a K-albanian controlled part of Kosovo.

Dream on ben.


Enis from DK:
> wilst Serbia and Serbs keep dreamin that Kosova/o will again become part of Serbia.

From the perspective of myself, just about all serbs, & the majority of all others on this planet, Kosovo is still a part of Serbia. Guess that makes your view, a minority one.

As for the self-styled 'repulic of Kosovo' gaining a seat on the UN, it stands about as much chance there as it does of becoming independent.

Think otherwise? Try telling the yanks to remove 'Bondsteel' & see what happens.


ben again:

Whatever else Yugoslavia was in the 70's & 80's, it certainly wasn't a democracy & made no pretence to be such. So using that label in that context is meaningless.

People change ben.. & so do countries.

Also, my view for that period is that Tito gave autonomy to Kosovo province in 74 in line with "Stronger Yugoslavia - weaker Serbia". K-albanians then agitated for republic status culminating in riots of 81, after which crackdown ensued - including against students who were the organisers of the protests that led to the riots themselves.

And during all this time, attacks & discrimination on & against serbs & other minorities in Kosovo were on the increase - culminating in Milosevic's rescindment of autonomy in 1989.

Were K-albanians treated as 2nd-class citizens in Yugoslavia... probably. However, one wonders how a hypothetical serb in Albania would've been treated during that time... or even an albanian in Albania.


blero:

Agree with you regarding the grammar. While I personally have no problems with it (native language), do understand the difficulty others have (transposing 't's & 'h's etc), although sometimes it is a little tough to understand precisely what is being said.

With regard to Zoran, think you guys are being a trifle harsh - was primarily making a joke at 'Dugi's espense.


Dugi:
How about KAPUT?


Adriano:
> But believing that Serbia has any power in the UN recognition is naive on your part

Well actually, it's you who are being naive.

As long as Serbia refuses to recognise pseudo-state & accept partition of its territory, UN will not allow membership. Russia's veto merely guarantees this. Can jump up & down as much as you like, but will not change reality.

> But obviously Serbia was never threatened of extermination, etc.
Really? I would suggest to you that you revisit your history texts on WWII.

Look up the word 'Ustashe'.

> Soon Montenegro and Macedonia will collapse your dreams, and than what will you say?
Seem to recall something about "counting chickens" & "hatching eggs".

> Strav, holding to 1244 and war criminals at the same time its already a double standard.
Yes, serbs have our war criminals... & K-albanians have theirs... but, theirs are still in power.

> Kosovo is Free
Truly? Am sure George W. believed as much in that little "Mission Accomplished" speech he gave on that carrier too.

He was wrong.

Ben, it is simply not true that the Serbs of Kosovo are the only minority in the world to have their language be the official one of their state. South Africa is an easy disproving example.

"It passes through teh fact that the Kosova's leaders speak in Serbian to the K-Serbs without any complexes."

Because when they were educated they were learned Serbo-Croat as it was on of the official languages of the state they lived in at the time, so hardly surprising really.

"We never had the pleasure to hear a Serbian leader to come in Kosova and speak in Albanian to the ppl there."

Albanian is only an official language in Kosovo within Serbia whereas Serbian is official statewide so there was no need for Serbs outside of Kosovo to learn it so again not surprising.

It would be like expecting a UK prime minister to go to Wales and be expected to speak Welsh to the Welsh speakers there. Not since David Lloyd George was Prime Minster has this likely to have happened.

Ben - counting, 1,2,3 etc is kindergarten knowledge not university knowledgeor are you trying to say that the education system in Kosovo is SO bad that they teach you to count at university. If that is the case, then your "degrees" are worthless.

So not only can Dugi NOT count, Blero cannot read plain English. I quoted "Well Done" which is TWO words as a adjective to Kosovo.

As for prosperity, Serbia has enjoyed much more than Kosovo in the last 10 years and will continue to outperform Kosovo in the future. Kosovo's financial future rests on Trepca but you seem to have some problems controlling it. It must be very annoying to not be able to get your hands on the only real wealth in Kosovo.

WELL DONE KOSOVA
yeah
Message to Kosova Leaders
Please STOP STOP speaking
Serbian language.
People of Kosova need to learn to speak Albanian Language.

Dear User Italy,

do not worry about the future of the newborn republic. Your logic is flawed because we do not need Serbia to join the IMF. In fact, members of IMF have voting shares based on their contributions. I would like to stress that the Republic of Kosova will join the IMF this year (2008), I am confident. As far as being a "real country" I will leave that to myself to judge. The Holy See (Vatican) is not a UN member State, they are a country, so is China who isn't recognized by over 23 countries, Isreal by over 50, etc. Kosova has the strongest allies and I am certain that in 10 years our living standards will surpass Rep. of Albania, in 15 the Rep. of Serbia. My strong belief in this is composed by facts which point to increase investment in energy, and cheap labor. I am expecting great things, and I know I will not be let down.

Kosova in Europe, that's next.

>> As long as Serbia refuses to recognise pseudo-state & accept partition of its territory, UN will not allow membership. Russia's veto merely guarantees this. Can jump up & down as much as you like, but will not change reality.

stop beating your chest there is a story right now on B92 that says "Serbia not going bankrupt." That usually means that are. You need money and investments so enough with the bravado

Blero - your analysis is flawed. Pure and simple.

Landi - No, I'm not referring to them as two countries. This limbo which Kosovo finds itself will persist indefinitely unless they come to the table to talk.

If they don't then the future is bleak. THE US and EU will only put money into Kosovo if they can get something back. That something is access to Trepca. Unless the Albanians can subdue or persuade the Serbs in the north to work with them, then Trepca is off limits for the West. An alternative scenario is that the West works with the Serbs in the north, effecting a partition of the province. They get access to Trepca, the Serbs have plenty of work and the Albanians are left with nothing. Either way, the future is bleak for the Albanians.

And it's disingenuous to compare Kosovo to Taiwan. Europeans don't have the same work ethic as Asians, if they did, Kosovo's economy would already be thriving. it's not. Kosovo has nothing to offer the world for trade apart from energy supplies, hence the EU and US insistence on building a coal power station in Kosovo, powered by.....you guessed it, Trepca's coal. If you can't control it you have no future "independent" or not.

KV - One small problem in your argument. there IS a difference between Kosovo and The Vatican (The Holy See is not recognised as a country) and it is this - Vatican City State is a recognized national territory under international law, but Kosovo isn't. As we all know in this forum, UNSCR 1244 reaffirms Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo. GAME OVER. Unless you albanians pull your heads out of the sand and get realistic about Kosovo's status, you have no future, whatever Thaci, the EU and US might say or do.
(Zoran, 17 June 2008 11:48)

Zoran,
So you let to presume that Albanians in Kosovo should accept Serbia as their country, in order to have a future, while everyone in this forum (including you) knows that it was Serbia (or then Yugoslavia) that have tried so hard to deprive Kosovo’s future, i.e. the state it is now. And as far as UNSCR 1244 is concerned, it is something not to pay much attention, since it is slowly expiring.

Blero: "Also Zoran, please tell us what prosperity have you had in the last 10 years (I am having difficulties thinking of a single one)."

If you are assuming Zoran to be living in Serbia then it would be wise to consider Serbia's GDP is 35% higher in 2008 than it was in 1998 and that was after a 18.3% annual decrease in 1999. Kosovo's GDP per capita is about a quarter of that in the rest of Serbia.

Adriano, what are you talking about? I never mentioned anything about war criminals, only that Resolution 1244 is still king, regardless of any ilegal constitution that wishes to take its place. If you have a comment about that, then say so, otherwise your totally off track. By the way, I'm not a Serb.

So to cap it off, in your badly formed reply, you made no case against Resolution 1244, brought up war criminals which had nothing to do with this so called constitution and you labelled me a Serb when that is also inaccurate. Triple whammy.

Blero you really think Kosovo will have higher salaries then Serbia?You are really optimistic guy...or astrologist.

I think many many many many years will pass until Kosovo becomes even close as southern part of Serbia.For northern part of Serbia...maybe in the next century.Maybe.
Bosses from the west will buy everything for cheap prices, something will bring cash, something won't.

KV - One small problem in your argument. there IS a difference between Kosovo and The Vatican (The Holy See is not recognised as a country) and it is this - Vatican City State is a recognized national territory under international law, but Kosovo isn't. As we all know in this forum, UNSCR 1244 reaffirms Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo. GAME OVER. Unless you albanians pull your heads out of the sand and get realistic about Kosovo's status, you have no future, whatever Thaci, the EU and US might say or do.

blero:
> Insult to a nation.

Insult to a nationality perhaps, but even there, think you are attributing too much importance to a throw-away line (the 2nd, not the 1st). That's my opinion anyway.


Al:
> stop beating your chest...
> ... You need money and investments so enough with the bravado

For Serbia, 'money & investments' will come - is primarily a case of stability, with/without the EU.

Serbia now has a multi[-multi]-party democracy & has continually stressed that it will use diplomacy with regard to the Kosovo issue, as is its right - as opposed to a certain other pseudo-state, so don't trouble yourself on that score.

As for 'beating my chest', am merely stating the obvious. K-albanian unilateral action solves nothing, it merely post-pones the problem.

Sooner or later, Kosovo issue will be back on the agenda.

KV

Will Albania's living standards over 3 times higher than that of Kosovo and Serbia's over 5 times higher than that of Kosovo, you think that their economies will stop and yours will overtake them in the alotted time? Sorry, that argument just makes no sense to me economically.

Pz - you'd better hope and pray that the EU and US keep UNSCR 1244 alive and kicking because once that ceases to exist, unless Serbia and Kosovo come to some agreement, Serbia has the legal right to move back into Kosovo with it's troops and police whether you like it or not.

regardless of whether Kosovo has a constitution and declared independence, as far as the UN is concerned, it's still a sovereign part of Serbia.

So hope and pray that 1244 stays in place, otherwise we'll definitely be meeting each other.

Legaly speaking, Zoranis right:

"regardless of whether Kosovo has a constitution and declared independence, as far as the UN is concerned, it's still a sovereign part of Serbia."

Under 1244, Kossovo SHOULD have a constitution, SHOULD have a goverment of its own, BUT in any case within the frame of FRY (and the republic of Serbia as its succesor).
The constitution on its own and the putting it to action doesnt mean anything at all, although it doesnt need the approval by Serbia, in a UDI manner.
Independance of Kossovo actually doesnt depend on Kossovo itself, rather than the agrement between UN, Serbia, Kossovo altogether.
And since there is no expiration day of the 1244, albanians in Kossovo cant really hope for a full independance and recognition by the UN, unless Serbia and the UN itself agree upon it.

UN will not agree on the UDI, unless all requirements of the 1244 + annex 2 are met. Any other movement by the UN, will be dictatorial move by the UN, in the spirit of breaking its own decisions. But to do that, the UN SC needs unanimity, which doesnt have at this point.
On the other hand Kossovo albanians feel that even if they dont get a seat in the UN, nothing will actually change for them as long as they have the americans with them. Unfortunately they will not have that forever. Americans never do anything without a payback, so the delay will only lead them to withdrawal of their support to Kossovo UDI. If and when that happens, Kossov will be like a leaf in the wind, and it will inevitably drive them to the hands of albania. This can only lead to conflicts in the area, something that noone wants (i hope).
So in this spirit, there are a lot of people that really dont want the UDI and they will fight it. It is not just a territorial or pride issue, as it looks like. It is much more than that.

strav: this is for you 1244 lets say that you go to a store and you see two prices on one product one cheaper the other one more expencive, you would expect to pay the cheaper one.
See when 1244 was approved it was approved till the outcome of the Kosovo status was finalised. But before that happend the UN in its founding days dictated the Rights of Self Determination(The same conduct that all the country's use to declare their independence including your country strav and Serbia)
See yougoslavia was demolished and the leftover went to Serbia, so we have a great case that there was a greater Serbia. Now forcing people because of a quad digit number it is not fair and the revisions of the laws are in their way(as you see daily more people get in contact with Kosovo in governmental level). Anyway It is a lost cause because if it goes like this not even Serbians would like to live in Serbia let alone Kosovo becoming part of the nightmare that put the Balkans into shame.
(Adriano, 16 June 2008 17:44)

Adriano, you see your comments above, they made little to no sense. My suggestion to you is to educate yourself on what Resolution 1244 is and what it means. You will find it on the UN website. Once you do understand its full meaning, then I believe you will understand what I'm talking about and hopefully you would have stopped with your comments.

Zoran,
So you say that Serbia has the legal right to invade Kosovo with its troops and police!!! Where does this right come from? Who gives Serbia this legal right, its constitution, UN or maybe Russia??
You seem to forget that Kosovo is Independent regardless of whether Serbia (you) like it or not, and it’s been recognized by more than 40 countries so far.
I think that UNSCR 1244 will still be alive, but UN presence and their role/competences will slowly be fading away. This is already happening. And if you ask me, I hope and pray that 1244 is declared null and void as soon as possible. We can meet even now; I can be your host and accompany you throughout Kosovo so you can see that things are much better from what you and some others around here seem to know, and from what has been left when those troops and police you want to resend to Kosovo left behind.

We are waiting for that day to give you the independence.
(italy, 17 June 2008 20:01)

dear italy, I think that Belgrade should have made the move first due to what happened only 8 years ago, if you are not too young or too old to remember it.

Kosovars on their hand granted the Serbian language as official language in eh entire country- something like you Italians, because of Alto Adige, to grant the German language as official language in the entire country- so one could go in Rome and write letters to the mayor of Rome in German and pretend that he answers him in German- although I don’t think that Alemano would mind. You see it’s not a little thing that Kosovars did in their constitution.

Anyhow, I do share some of your concerns about teh legal limbo where kosova might end up or even about teh truly functional state. That’s why I suggest that Ksoova unify with Albania.

Do you think that Kososva would ever want to break away from Albania???

You pragmatic reckoning is teh right direction in solving this issue but you have to be more realistic in assumptions and get rid of your Italian opportunistic mentality- Kosovars did not want to be ever a part of Yugo/Serbia because they are not part of that (Serbian) nation, rather they are part of the Albanian nation- there is where all this issue comes from- from non respecting the ethnicity and teh will of the Kosovars.

It's like giving teh Lombardia to the France- where >90% of teh Lombards are Itaian.

P.S. one more thing, I thought you Italians allready recognized the independence or we are, one more time witnessing the famous Italian U turn? ;))

Pz - the UN i.e. International Law, gives Serbia the right to move it's armed forces and police back into Kosovo if UNSCR 1244 is terminated and UNMIK leave. And now that you mention it, so does the Serbian constitution.

Whether you like it or not, LEGALLY, Kosovo belongs to Serbia, so it makes NO difference if the Albanians declare themselves to be independent, have a constituiotn or have been recognised by 40 countries. Even if were 140 countries, it would still make no difference. As far as the UN is concerned and it's member states (which have to abide by UN law), Kosovo is NOT a country and isn't recognised as such by the UN. If it were you'd have a seat at the UN.

Hence, Serbia's legal right to deploy it's army and police into Kosovo if UNSCR 1244 is rescinded.

I might take you up on that offer one day but it'll be more likely that i'll be showing you around Serbia's southern province of Kosovo.

Ben - if there's one thing that's GUARANTEED to start a war with Serbia, it's declaring that Kosovo is joining Albania formally. Even your leaders, the US and EU aren't so stupid to try that.

Kroni - fine. Partition Kosovo along ethnic lines, like the Albanians have tried to partition Serbia along it's ethnic lines and you might find that many more Serbs would be willing to see that as an acceptable compromise solution to what seems at the moment to be an intractable situation.

Well done Kosovo....LOL

An interesting report on France 24 news channel, Kosovo has a flag, wow, it has a constution, well done, independence? Not according to the UN. It has all things except, none of the institutions actually work, the goverment and police dont work together, Albanians dont pay there bills, the country is run by corrupt politians. oh well done Kosovo Albanians. What you will see is the partitioned Serb sectors start to move forward. WHen the new goverment in Belgrade comes into force the USA will support this goverment with money, whos really the successful one????

Dear Mr KV,
I suggest Pristina to take destiny into its hands and not keep it in Belgrade's will. Kosovo is Serbia's territory recognised by USA and 20 EU countires as an international protectorate to be monitored for unlimited period of time. Kosovo can become a country and get rid of protectorate status ONLY when Belgrade's official in front of the Vlada comes out and says: We officialy recognize Kosovo as an independet country. In order to achive that, you must show good will with Serbia, convince Belgrade with valid proofs why you want a country on its territory, and together with Belgrade only sign an official solution of the issue. Until that happens, there will always be a table in a government office in Belgrade where your representatives are attended. I suggest you to ponder on different attitudes of approching Belgrade. I suggest you to arrive to Belgrade with Kosovo Serbs. We are waiting for that day to give you the independence.

Dear Mr Ben,
I am obviously defending Serbian rights on Kosovo, which does not mean that I go against Albanian rights per force. I believe Kosovo should be independent on account of what happened not only 9 yrs ago but on account of unharmonius living in the last century. Of course, it can be only independent if Belgrade says yes, and if Serbs who live on Kosovo ask for independence as well. There is no other legal way. Because Kosovo is Serbia's territory.
Said this, Belgrade might give independence to Kosovo in the future, and as I stated, only if Kosovo Serbs together with Kosovo Albanians come to Belgrade and give valid proofs why they want the independence on the national territory. Serbia would not hesitate much in that case to accpet the independence.
As for your question "Do you think that Kososva would ever want to break away from Albania?" first we have to see if it joins Albania. I personally think Albania would not annex Kosovo. Albania already saw their conationals "spitting into the plate from which they ate", I mean Serbia, and on account of this experience, Albania would be afraid to see the repeated situation at home.

ONE WORD - Well done Kosova...

Now it's obvious why the Albanians are deluded in believing that Kosovo is independent - "Dugi : ONE WORD - Well done Kosova..."

Well done is TWO words. Ten years of poverty have obviously hit your education system hard.

It's not over yet Fatmir Sejdiu. Let see if you can win a UN seat.

Er, sorry Dugi, that's three words.

The event was a complete failure and is the reason why it was so low-key. The Serbians are having none of this nonsense.

Power should have been transferred from the UN to the EU, the Albanians were supposed to have full control over the province and the Ahtisaari plan coming into effect in a ceremony of grandeur!

However, none of that happened or will ever happen and the Albanians are waking up to all of these theatrics! It is not entertaining anymore and the plans are heading for the dump. The independence movement is beginning to implode while Serbians and non-Albanians are forming stronger links with Belgrade.

The party is over my dear Albanians. Wake up!

the constitution is in the same league as the UDI, Illegal and non binding. It doesn't take Kosovo from Serbia as Resolution 1244 is still in place because it doesn't userp 1244. The same problems will remain.
On a final note, the constitution will not have any effect on the parrallel structures being implemented in the North.

No this issue is about to end we have the time to wait for a UN seat no country that seperated could become member of UN in a couple of days. Now Kosova/o has its own constitution and moving forward wilst Serbia and Serbs keep dreamin that Kosova/o will again become part of Serbia. Thats will never happen because it's against the majority of the people Kosova/o

"...and contains all of the Ahtisaari document's original provisions."

This statemen is not quite correct for the draft Constitution has been worked out way down in 2004 by The Public International Law and Policy Group (USA). So Ahtisaari's fantasies were just an outside cover.

At a closer look the American hands are more evident. Who else could write down Article 24 for the region where absolute majority are Muslims and Catholics ! This Article is as well in the favor of sexual minorities which would never occur to an Albanian. K-Albanian project is totally ignored by the Islamic World and this will only add to their confidence.

Same with Articles 25 and 26 to legalize abortions. At a closer look you will find here guarantees for :

1. right for life after the birth ...
2. right to control life and the body according to the law ...

Altogether it is called right for abortion.

Also Ahtisaari who represents neutral Finland could never write the Article where it is said that international military presence is possible only under NATO command ! To say nothing that none of the existing Constitutions legalizes foreign intervention.

Put together with the Articles running that local authorities are obliged to "close cooperation" with international missions it all composes a colonial treaty but not a Constitution of an independent state !

.

Serbia "should not even take note of such things". - Jeremic

It looks to me bit anxious Jeremic ;)

The process of democratization of the Kosovar society will continua EU is there to help.

It's strange how to teh Serbian "democrats" slips away the fact that the Serbian language is granted by K Constitution as official language in the entire country- a privilege that no other minority (or better micro-minority) in the world has.

It passes through teh fact that the Kosova's leaders speak in Serbian to the K-Serbs without any complexes.

We never had the pleasure to hear a Serbian leader to come in Kosova and speak in Albanian to the ppl there.

This is what makes us different, this is what makes impossible the life together.

Ten years of poverty have obviously hit your education system hard.
(Zoran, 16 June 2008 12:05)

Eh my dear Zoki, ten years you say.

We say that only in 1976 teh "democratic" Yugo/Serbia allowed us (3 million ppl) to have the first University in our language.

The same "democratic" Yugo/Serbia than after 5 years in 1981 made the smae Uni (of which you can immagine teh quality- school for minorities in a developing country) reduced it into half- many Profs were arrested and others banded to teach.

This was not enough for you- your VOZD=Leader Slobo only 8 years after in 1989 closed totally this famous Uni.

Now basically since 2000 ppl start to educate and some mistakes happen.

But NEVER will happen the mistake of ACKNOWLEDGING where this ignorance comes from and whose merit is.

Well done is TWO words. Ten years of poverty have obviously hit your education system hard.
(Zoran, 16 June 2008 12:05)

Actually Zoran, “Well done Kosova” (as Dugi) said, is a THREE word sentence.

Since you shifted the forum to maths I thought I can join the debate.

Zoran, it looks that knowledge in maths is not up to scratch in your region either.

Zoran, it is pure arrogance picking on grammar errors in the forum where English is not the mother language of most of the readers in the forum.

Also Zoran, please tell us what prosperity have you had in the last 10 years (I am having difficulties thinking of a single one).

Blero,

In your anticipation to attack you made one major flaw, you never read or did not understand what was stated? Zoran was indeed correct in what he wrote. Both grammatically and mathematically, as follows:-

Well done is TWO words. Ten years of poverty have obviously hit your education system hard.
(Zoran, 16 June 2008 12:05)

Zoran was merely stating that even partially the sentence was more than one word.

So please do not attack until you can disseminate the english language thoroughly, or is it that the 10years have affected you also?

Regards.

Kosovo i Metohija je Srbija

Ben - counting, 1,2,3 etc is kindergarten knowledge not university knowledgeor are you trying to say that the education system in Kosovo is SO bad that they teach you to count at university. If that is the case, then your "degrees" are worthless.

So not only can Dugi NOT count, Blero cannot read plain English. I quoted "Well Done" which is TWO words as a adjective to Kosovo.

As for prosperity, Serbia has enjoyed much more than Kosovo in the last 10 years and will continue to outperform Kosovo in the future. Kosovo's financial future rests on Trepca but you seem to have some problems controlling it. It must be very annoying to not be able to get your hands on the only real wealth in Kosovo.

It is great news for us K.Albanians!

We have waited for decades for this to happen!
Now the hard work is waiting and if we work hard and have right attitude,we will be OK.

A message to all doubters:K.Albanians and K.Serbs can live together in Kosovo!
It will work like in marriage,give some,take some,needs plenty of understanding as both sides lost a lot during that bad period in our history!

It is time for Kosovans as well to be part of the rest of Europe,hopefully they will have plenty of help and support from everyone abroad.

That's be positive only for one day and believe me you will feel much better.
Don't do to others something that you don't like others to do to you!!!

Gezuar and Ziveli!!!

WELL DONE KOSOVA
yeah
Message to Kosova Leaders
Please STOP STOP speaking
Serbian language.
People of Kosova need to learn to speak Albanian Language.

Blero,

I honestly did not think the education system was that bad in Kosovo. I have sent many Kosovan Albanian employees to the UK on tranining courses but I think you would struggle. Maybe it's because English is a third language for you.

All that was required by you was to read. At no point was comment 1 mentioned only your flawed analysis of comment 4.

Incidentally I am a very fair person and sent statiscally the same number of Kosovan Serbs on the same training courses and guess what.....THEY HAD HIGHER MARKS!!!!

Go Figure.

This is a great day for Kosovo Albanians and I would like to congratulate them. America and EU have helped you to obtain freedom from Slobodan Milosevic, but now is the moment for you and your Pristina elite to leave the imagination and show the good will how to approach Serbia because ONLY with Serbia's yes, Kosovo can become a country in real effect, with a seat in UN, raise funds from MMF, etc etc. Otherwise, Kosovo will repeat the status of Taiwan, not economically unfortunately, and will be splittered in two parts, what effectively is today, and will remain if Albanian elite does not come to terms with the reality.

Jevic, its not a competition man who wins what seat. If kosova has the capacitys that are required from a sovereng state and fulfils the duty's as a UN member, they will become a UN member. But believing that Serbia has any power in the UN recognition is naive on your part.

Zoran your rhetoric's are not on any special level either. Just because he misspoke on a topic, that does not make you right. But obviously Serbia was never threatened of extermination, they schools and culture never came under direct threat, so its easy for you to give opinion on things you dont have much comprehension.

ZK UK. maybe the Independence party is over but i dont see any Kosovo celebrations from the Serbian side either.
Just becouse Serbian politicians brainwash you in the UK that does not mean that they are telling you the truth. Soon Montenegro and Macedonia will collapse your dreams, and than what will you say?

Strav, holding to 1244 and war criminals at the same time its already a double standard. Only a Serbian mentality can have it both ways and eat it two. Ridiculous!!

Kosovo is Free, Vojvodina should be next! Why should the radicals force the population who dont want to compromise on a EU future, to drain them with hate speeches and fake moral victories and manipulated history?
Where are the benefits for the majority of people???

Blero: "Also Zoran, please tell us what prosperity have you had in the last 10 years (I am having difficulties thinking of a single one)."

If you are assuming Zoran to be living in Serbia then it would be wise to consider Serbia's GDP is 35% higher in 2008 than it was in 1998 and that was after a 18.3% annual decrease in 1999. Kosovo's GDP per capita is about a quarter of that in the rest of Serbia.

A constitution guaranteeing "the political equality of all citizens and full respect for internationally-guaranteed human rights".

Any constitution only has meaning if the principles contained in it are respected by the citizenry. And judging by the heirarchy of the K-albanian govt, the acts of it's citizens over the past decade, & even the comments on this website.., there is small chance of that.

And until & if the general population changes it's attitude, K-albanian constitution is only so much worthless paper.


ben:
> It's strange how to teh Serbian "democrats" slips away the fact that the Serbian language is granted by K Constitution as official language in the entire country- a privilege that no other minority (or better micro-minority) in the world has.

And no doubt you also think your pretty new constitution would be all the protection a couple of people would need if they were caught speaking 'official minority serbian language' in a K-albanian controlled part of Kosovo.

Dream on ben.


Enis from DK:
> wilst Serbia and Serbs keep dreamin that Kosova/o will again become part of Serbia.

From the perspective of myself, just about all serbs, & the majority of all others on this planet, Kosovo is still a part of Serbia. Guess that makes your view, a minority one.

As for the self-styled 'repulic of Kosovo' gaining a seat on the UN, it stands about as much chance there as it does of becoming independent.

Think otherwise? Try telling the yanks to remove 'Bondsteel' & see what happens.


ben again:

Whatever else Yugoslavia was in the 70's & 80's, it certainly wasn't a democracy & made no pretence to be such. So using that label in that context is meaningless.

People change ben.. & so do countries.

Also, my view for that period is that Tito gave autonomy to Kosovo province in 74 in line with "Stronger Yugoslavia - weaker Serbia". K-albanians then agitated for republic status culminating in riots of 81, after which crackdown ensued - including against students who were the organisers of the protests that led to the riots themselves.

And during all this time, attacks & discrimination on & against serbs & other minorities in Kosovo were on the increase - culminating in Milosevic's rescindment of autonomy in 1989.

Were K-albanians treated as 2nd-class citizens in Yugoslavia... probably. However, one wonders how a hypothetical serb in Albania would've been treated during that time... or even an albanian in Albania.


blero:

Agree with you regarding the grammar. While I personally have no problems with it (native language), do understand the difficulty others have (transposing 't's & 'h's etc), although sometimes it is a little tough to understand precisely what is being said.

With regard to Zoran, think you guys are being a trifle harsh - was primarily making a joke at 'Dugi's espense.


Dugi:
How about KAPUT?


Adriano:
> But believing that Serbia has any power in the UN recognition is naive on your part

Well actually, it's you who are being naive.

As long as Serbia refuses to recognise pseudo-state & accept partition of its territory, UN will not allow membership. Russia's veto merely guarantees this. Can jump up & down as much as you like, but will not change reality.

> But obviously Serbia was never threatened of extermination, etc.
Really? I would suggest to you that you revisit your history texts on WWII.

Look up the word 'Ustashe'.

> Soon Montenegro and Macedonia will collapse your dreams, and than what will you say?
Seem to recall something about "counting chickens" & "hatching eggs".

> Strav, holding to 1244 and war criminals at the same time its already a double standard.
Yes, serbs have our war criminals... & K-albanians have theirs... but, theirs are still in power.

> Kosovo is Free
Truly? Am sure George W. believed as much in that little "Mission Accomplished" speech he gave on that carrier too.

He was wrong.

The one word, or two or three words by Dugi is neither here nor there, but yours and other Albanians argument about the language spoken in Kosovo, now or 50 years ago, is FLAWED.

It's been stated many, many times on this forum by the Albanians that the Serbians never learnt to speak Albanian, either recently, or 20,30 or 50 years ago.

That is usually the norm in most countries. The UK/Welsh example is a very good example. Most people in the UK don't speak Welsh or Gaelic, two large minority languages. So are the Albanians going to tell the British that they are wrong?

The real problem is that the Albanians have wanted independence for DECADES. This isn't a recent (milosevic) phenomenon. During Tito's time and further back in history, you wanted independence and you've caused a lot of trouble trying to get it.

So you should fully understand when the Serbs fight for their rights and have nothing to do with an Albanian province, even if that means fighting. You've done exactly the same, so don't expect any difference from the Serbs. Serbs and Albanians don't want to live in the same state so you'll just have to accept that you've lost the north (with Trepca) unless you are willing to fight, and it would be hypocritical for the Albanians to do so as they would be trying to subjugate a peopl that don't want Albanian rulers.

Blero you really think Kosovo will have higher salaries then Serbia?You are really optimistic guy...or astrologist.

I think many many many many years will pass until Kosovo becomes even close as southern part of Serbia.For northern part of Serbia...maybe in the next century.Maybe.
Bosses from the west will buy everything for cheap prices, something will bring cash, something won't.

KV - One small problem in your argument. there IS a difference between Kosovo and The Vatican (The Holy See is not recognised as a country) and it is this - Vatican City State is a recognized national territory under international law, but Kosovo isn't. As we all know in this forum, UNSCR 1244 reaffirms Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo. GAME OVER. Unless you albanians pull your heads out of the sand and get realistic about Kosovo's status, you have no future, whatever Thaci, the EU and US might say or do.
(Zoran, 17 June 2008 11:48)

Zoran,
So you let to presume that Albanians in Kosovo should accept Serbia as their country, in order to have a future, while everyone in this forum (including you) knows that it was Serbia (or then Yugoslavia) that have tried so hard to deprive Kosovo’s future, i.e. the state it is now. And as far as UNSCR 1244 is concerned, it is something not to pay much attention, since it is slowly expiring.

Pz - you'd better hope and pray that the EU and US keep UNSCR 1244 alive and kicking because once that ceases to exist, unless Serbia and Kosovo come to some agreement, Serbia has the legal right to move back into Kosovo with it's troops and police whether you like it or not.

regardless of whether Kosovo has a constitution and declared independence, as far as the UN is concerned, it's still a sovereign part of Serbia.

So hope and pray that 1244 stays in place, otherwise we'll definitely be meeting each other.

Ben, this "constitution" that you're talking up spells out in no uncertain terms that you're a multi-ethnic state, yet in the same breat you claim that it is impossible for Albanians and Serbs to live together. So which is it to be?

"It passes through teh fact that the Kosova's leaders speak in Serbian to the K-Serbs without any complexes.

(ben, 16 June 2008 12:30)"

ben,

So your leaders speak Serbian in public. Well, words are easy and cheap to utter. Very reassuring indeed to those K-Serbs who are too afraid still to visit the vandalized graves of their loved ones in Pristina.

Ben, it is simply not true that the Serbs of Kosovo are the only minority in the world to have their language be the official one of their state. South Africa is an easy disproving example.

"It passes through teh fact that the Kosova's leaders speak in Serbian to the K-Serbs without any complexes."

Because when they were educated they were learned Serbo-Croat as it was on of the official languages of the state they lived in at the time, so hardly surprising really.

"We never had the pleasure to hear a Serbian leader to come in Kosova and speak in Albanian to the ppl there."

Albanian is only an official language in Kosovo within Serbia whereas Serbian is official statewide so there was no need for Serbs outside of Kosovo to learn it so again not surprising.

It would be like expecting a UK prime minister to go to Wales and be expected to speak Welsh to the Welsh speakers there. Not since David Lloyd George was Prime Minster has this likely to have happened.

(PJD, 16 June 2008 14:34)

PJD et al. you confuse principles with values- very immature.

first its not teh question of knowing teh language is about the GOOD WILL to USE it.

Secondly, you draw paralels without reflecting that Serbian leadesr have some moral obligation in doing that that I don't think is the case with English/Welsh case that you mention out of nothing.

So pls reflect before that you make draw parallels.

Zoran: read above and read more carefully.

Kosovo i Metohija je Srbija
(Mr. David J. Jones, 16 June 2008 15:25)

Mr. David J Jones.

The sentence was “Well done Kosova” (get the abacus and read the first comment).
And this is a three letter work.
Assuming from your name I would expect you to know that.
Well, if in your opinion the sentence above is a two letter sentence I rest my case.

And Mr David, Kosova will never be Serbia.


(Zoran, 16 June 2008 15:27)

If you are to correct somebody (as you did with the first posting) do it correctly.
So, if you quoted “Well done”, you quoted wrong.
The sentence still stands as it was written.
Now Zoran, which part of the plain English that you are referring to did I miss?
If you want to elaborate on the contents of the comment you can do so.

Now back to prosperity.
Zoran, Kosovo is 120 days old.
Judge us in a year (or come looking for a better paid job in Kosovo).

With regard to Zoran, think you guys are being a trifle harsh - was primarily making a joke at 'Dugi's espense.

(peter, sydney, 16 June 2008 16:47)

Peter,

We are all up for a joke.
Without them it just gets boring.
I am pretty sure that everybody in this forum is happy to accept jokes in their expense.
I know I am.
However you have to admit that the last Zoran’s last sentence converts the joke (if that was his original intention) to an insult.
Insult to a nation.
Now Peter, that is not a joke any more.
If we all revert to insults, where does that lead?
And how does one respond to an insult?

strav: this is for you 1244 lets say that you go to a store and you see two prices on one product one cheaper the other one more expencive, you would expect to pay the cheaper one.
See when 1244 was approved it was approved till the outcome of the Kosovo status was finalised. But before that happend the UN in its founding days dictated the Rights of Self Determination(The same conduct that all the country's use to declare their independence including your country strav and Serbia)
See yougoslavia was demolished and the leftover went to Serbia, so we have a great case that there was a greater Serbia. Now forcing people because of a quad digit number it is not fair and the revisions of the laws are in their way(as you see daily more people get in contact with Kosovo in governmental level). Anyway It is a lost cause because if it goes like this not even Serbians would like to live in Serbia let alone Kosovo becoming part of the nightmare that put the Balkans into shame.

>> As long as Serbia refuses to recognise pseudo-state & accept partition of its territory, UN will not allow membership. Russia's veto merely guarantees this. Can jump up & down as much as you like, but will not change reality.

stop beating your chest there is a story right now on B92 that says "Serbia not going bankrupt." That usually means that are. You need money and investments so enough with the bravado

Adriano, Kosovo's independence is blocked at the UN by both Russia and China. Whether Macedonia or Montenegro recognise makes little difference - it only shows who are pulling their strings.

The simple fact is, Kosovo's independence is irreversibly blocked and there is nothing anyone can do about it - even if more than 40 nations decide to recognise this illegal pretent puppet entity, it makes little difference.

Again, B92 keep censoring this...PROUD TO BE ALBANIAN!!!!

(Mr. David J. Jones, 16 June 2008 22:08)

If my response to Zoran was in relation to his analysis of the first comment why should you judge only comment nr. 4 Mr Davis?
Now Mr. Davis, do you really expect me to believe that you are a “fair” person and you send the same number of Kosovo Albanians as you did Kosovo Serbs?
Do you actually expect me to believe that when you sign your comment with “Kosovo is Serbia”?
Do you also expect me to take your word on who performed better in the “training courses you arranged”?
Sorry Mr. Davis, no.
By the way Mr. Davis, English is my 5th language.

Zoran,
On your comment you said that Serbia has donne a lot better that Kosovo the past 10 years and will continue to outperforme it in the future. Are you already refering to them as two diferent countries?!

Dear User Italy,

do not worry about the future of the newborn republic. Your logic is flawed because we do not need Serbia to join the IMF. In fact, members of IMF have voting shares based on their contributions. I would like to stress that the Republic of Kosova will join the IMF this year (2008), I am confident. As far as being a "real country" I will leave that to myself to judge. The Holy See (Vatican) is not a UN member State, they are a country, so is China who isn't recognized by over 23 countries, Isreal by over 50, etc. Kosova has the strongest allies and I am certain that in 10 years our living standards will surpass Rep. of Albania, in 15 the Rep. of Serbia. My strong belief in this is composed by facts which point to increase investment in energy, and cheap labor. I am expecting great things, and I know I will not be let down.

Kosova in Europe, that's next.

blero:
> Insult to a nation.

Insult to a nationality perhaps, but even there, think you are attributing too much importance to a throw-away line (the 2nd, not the 1st). That's my opinion anyway.


Al:
> stop beating your chest...
> ... You need money and investments so enough with the bravado

For Serbia, 'money & investments' will come - is primarily a case of stability, with/without the EU.

Serbia now has a multi[-multi]-party democracy & has continually stressed that it will use diplomacy with regard to the Kosovo issue, as is its right - as opposed to a certain other pseudo-state, so don't trouble yourself on that score.

As for 'beating my chest', am merely stating the obvious. K-albanian unilateral action solves nothing, it merely post-pones the problem.

Sooner or later, Kosovo issue will be back on the agenda.

Blero - your analysis is flawed. Pure and simple.

Landi - No, I'm not referring to them as two countries. This limbo which Kosovo finds itself will persist indefinitely unless they come to the table to talk.

If they don't then the future is bleak. THE US and EU will only put money into Kosovo if they can get something back. That something is access to Trepca. Unless the Albanians can subdue or persuade the Serbs in the north to work with them, then Trepca is off limits for the West. An alternative scenario is that the West works with the Serbs in the north, effecting a partition of the province. They get access to Trepca, the Serbs have plenty of work and the Albanians are left with nothing. Either way, the future is bleak for the Albanians.

And it's disingenuous to compare Kosovo to Taiwan. Europeans don't have the same work ethic as Asians, if they did, Kosovo's economy would already be thriving. it's not. Kosovo has nothing to offer the world for trade apart from energy supplies, hence the EU and US insistence on building a coal power station in Kosovo, powered by.....you guessed it, Trepca's coal. If you can't control it you have no future "independent" or not.

KV - One small problem in your argument. there IS a difference between Kosovo and The Vatican (The Holy See is not recognised as a country) and it is this - Vatican City State is a recognized national territory under international law, but Kosovo isn't. As we all know in this forum, UNSCR 1244 reaffirms Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo. GAME OVER. Unless you albanians pull your heads out of the sand and get realistic about Kosovo's status, you have no future, whatever Thaci, the EU and US might say or do.

strav: this is for you 1244 lets say that you go to a store and you see two prices on one product one cheaper the other one more expencive, you would expect to pay the cheaper one.
See when 1244 was approved it was approved till the outcome of the Kosovo status was finalised. But before that happend the UN in its founding days dictated the Rights of Self Determination(The same conduct that all the country's use to declare their independence including your country strav and Serbia)
See yougoslavia was demolished and the leftover went to Serbia, so we have a great case that there was a greater Serbia. Now forcing people because of a quad digit number it is not fair and the revisions of the laws are in their way(as you see daily more people get in contact with Kosovo in governmental level). Anyway It is a lost cause because if it goes like this not even Serbians would like to live in Serbia let alone Kosovo becoming part of the nightmare that put the Balkans into shame.
(Adriano, 16 June 2008 17:44)

Adriano, you see your comments above, they made little to no sense. My suggestion to you is to educate yourself on what Resolution 1244 is and what it means. You will find it on the UN website. Once you do understand its full meaning, then I believe you will understand what I'm talking about and hopefully you would have stopped with your comments.

Kroni - fine. Partition Kosovo along ethnic lines, like the Albanians have tried to partition Serbia along it's ethnic lines and you might find that many more Serbs would be willing to see that as an acceptable compromise solution to what seems at the moment to be an intractable situation.

Legaly speaking, Zoranis right:

"regardless of whether Kosovo has a constitution and declared independence, as far as the UN is concerned, it's still a sovereign part of Serbia."

Under 1244, Kossovo SHOULD have a constitution, SHOULD have a goverment of its own, BUT in any case within the frame of FRY (and the republic of Serbia as its succesor).
The constitution on its own and the putting it to action doesnt mean anything at all, although it doesnt need the approval by Serbia, in a UDI manner.
Independance of Kossovo actually doesnt depend on Kossovo itself, rather than the agrement between UN, Serbia, Kossovo altogether.
And since there is no expiration day of the 1244, albanians in Kossovo cant really hope for a full independance and recognition by the UN, unless Serbia and the UN itself agree upon it.

UN will not agree on the UDI, unless all requirements of the 1244 + annex 2 are met. Any other movement by the UN, will be dictatorial move by the UN, in the spirit of breaking its own decisions. But to do that, the UN SC needs unanimity, which doesnt have at this point.
On the other hand Kossovo albanians feel that even if they dont get a seat in the UN, nothing will actually change for them as long as they have the americans with them. Unfortunately they will not have that forever. Americans never do anything without a payback, so the delay will only lead them to withdrawal of their support to Kossovo UDI. If and when that happens, Kossov will be like a leaf in the wind, and it will inevitably drive them to the hands of albania. This can only lead to conflicts in the area, something that noone wants (i hope).
So in this spirit, there are a lot of people that really dont want the UDI and they will fight it. It is not just a territorial or pride issue, as it looks like. It is much more than that.

Dear Mr KV,
I suggest Pristina to take destiny into its hands and not keep it in Belgrade's will. Kosovo is Serbia's territory recognised by USA and 20 EU countires as an international protectorate to be monitored for unlimited period of time. Kosovo can become a country and get rid of protectorate status ONLY when Belgrade's official in front of the Vlada comes out and says: We officialy recognize Kosovo as an independet country. In order to achive that, you must show good will with Serbia, convince Belgrade with valid proofs why you want a country on its territory, and together with Belgrade only sign an official solution of the issue. Until that happens, there will always be a table in a government office in Belgrade where your representatives are attended. I suggest you to ponder on different attitudes of approching Belgrade. I suggest you to arrive to Belgrade with Kosovo Serbs. We are waiting for that day to give you the independence.

Adriano, what are you talking about? I never mentioned anything about war criminals, only that Resolution 1244 is still king, regardless of any ilegal constitution that wishes to take its place. If you have a comment about that, then say so, otherwise your totally off track. By the way, I'm not a Serb.

So to cap it off, in your badly formed reply, you made no case against Resolution 1244, brought up war criminals which had nothing to do with this so called constitution and you labelled me a Serb when that is also inaccurate. Triple whammy.

I am posting my old - Friday post. I am surprised that I didn't get any comments back from non-Serbian camp. I know if you want to be objective and look somebody in the eye - you need to admit that is fair and true -historical-fact supported post.

So, I am happy that at least by not objecting anything from my post the pro-Albanian posters on this site don't ignore the truth and facts.


"It looks nobody can’t stop long planned scenario of punishing Serbia for not cooperating and accepting global politicks of injustice and bulling – result - UDI will be more recognized DI, it will take more time but it looks inevitable – Deserved – NO, worth wasting more time – probably NOT – Try to get best deal of it – some kind of partition - if still the option.

They tried to do that by force – “humanitarian bombing” and it didn’t worked (if lasted for couple more weeks – EU and US coalition was on brink of collapse) – they tried to save EU collapse and the face too by bringing Russia to convince Serbia to accept and sign peace agreement and resolution 1244 which looked good at the moment – Kosovo stays as integral part of Serbia and guaranteed Serbia sovereignty.

But it showed again that was just one more political trap to achieve US goals by other means, avoiding civilian killings and destruction of non-military targets at costs of braking EU at start of its existence.

Serbian politicians failed to act during last 9 years and sure decades before – but it was communist regime accepting Tito directions to make Serbian dominance weaker and give Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo good foundation at Serbia’s expense. They all should celebrate Tito as their founder and make the biggest monuments of Tito – never to forget his role in achieving their old lived dreams comes true.

So, Serbian politicians failed in confrontation with unjust western speculators and thieves- EU and US politicians. They didn’t have any chance in that fight – but they didn’t do anything smart to make game at least interesting.

That’s all sad – by knowing that all historians and objective outsiders – and objective Albanians know that most- if not all in Czechs documentary are historical facts with some real stories and personal experiences of Serbian population at the time. It should be considered Albanian side and their suffering too – but historical facts stays and should be interesting seeing debate in which historians – real experts in history should look somebody in the eyes and try to discredit the facts – The Serbian sacrifices and suffering from Balkans wars to WWI and WWII and now heading to WWIII for fighting on right side against fascists, various aggressors and ocupators."
(dd, 13 June 2008 14:58)

KV

Will Albania's living standards over 3 times higher than that of Kosovo and Serbia's over 5 times higher than that of Kosovo, you think that their economies will stop and yours will overtake them in the alotted time? Sorry, that argument just makes no sense to me economically.

TO ALL JUST WANTED TO HIGHLIGHT THIS:Assistant U.S. Secretary of State for European and Eurasian issues Daniel Fried congratulated Sejdiu and pledged U.S. aid in developing "an independent, democratic and prosperous Kosovo," a statement from Sejdiu's office said.
--------------------------&
In reaction to calls for a parliament session to debate the latest developments in Kosovo, LDP leader Čedomir Jovanović said his party supported this move, "in order to redefine the state policy on Kosovo", which he says has been "wrong so far"

Čedomir Jovanović should be elected as the PM as its the only way Serbia comes back to earth, there is no way back for Kosova, Serbia needs to be in the EU as Romania said and this is the only way we can all move on. I dont really care about history becouse if we go into that we will never agree, as you know the reality in the ground is as it is and the Kosovars will never again be occupied by anyone.

Zoran,
So you say that Serbia has the legal right to invade Kosovo with its troops and police!!! Where does this right come from? Who gives Serbia this legal right, its constitution, UN or maybe Russia??
You seem to forget that Kosovo is Independent regardless of whether Serbia (you) like it or not, and it’s been recognized by more than 40 countries so far.
I think that UNSCR 1244 will still be alive, but UN presence and their role/competences will slowly be fading away. This is already happening. And if you ask me, I hope and pray that 1244 is declared null and void as soon as possible. We can meet even now; I can be your host and accompany you throughout Kosovo so you can see that things are much better from what you and some others around here seem to know, and from what has been left when those troops and police you want to resend to Kosovo left behind.

We are waiting for that day to give you the independence.
(italy, 17 June 2008 20:01)

dear italy, I think that Belgrade should have made the move first due to what happened only 8 years ago, if you are not too young or too old to remember it.

Kosovars on their hand granted the Serbian language as official language in eh entire country- something like you Italians, because of Alto Adige, to grant the German language as official language in the entire country- so one could go in Rome and write letters to the mayor of Rome in German and pretend that he answers him in German- although I don’t think that Alemano would mind. You see it’s not a little thing that Kosovars did in their constitution.

Anyhow, I do share some of your concerns about teh legal limbo where kosova might end up or even about teh truly functional state. That’s why I suggest that Ksoova unify with Albania.

Do you think that Kososva would ever want to break away from Albania???

You pragmatic reckoning is teh right direction in solving this issue but you have to be more realistic in assumptions and get rid of your Italian opportunistic mentality- Kosovars did not want to be ever a part of Yugo/Serbia because they are not part of that (Serbian) nation, rather they are part of the Albanian nation- there is where all this issue comes from- from non respecting the ethnicity and teh will of the Kosovars.

It's like giving teh Lombardia to the France- where >90% of teh Lombards are Itaian.

P.S. one more thing, I thought you Italians allready recognized the independence or we are, one more time witnessing the famous Italian U turn? ;))

Pz - the UN i.e. International Law, gives Serbia the right to move it's armed forces and police back into Kosovo if UNSCR 1244 is terminated and UNMIK leave. And now that you mention it, so does the Serbian constitution.

Whether you like it or not, LEGALLY, Kosovo belongs to Serbia, so it makes NO difference if the Albanians declare themselves to be independent, have a constituiotn or have been recognised by 40 countries. Even if were 140 countries, it would still make no difference. As far as the UN is concerned and it's member states (which have to abide by UN law), Kosovo is NOT a country and isn't recognised as such by the UN. If it were you'd have a seat at the UN.

Hence, Serbia's legal right to deploy it's army and police into Kosovo if UNSCR 1244 is rescinded.

I might take you up on that offer one day but it'll be more likely that i'll be showing you around Serbia's southern province of Kosovo.

Ben - if there's one thing that's GUARANTEED to start a war with Serbia, it's declaring that Kosovo is joining Albania formally. Even your leaders, the US and EU aren't so stupid to try that.

Dear Mr Ben,
I am obviously defending Serbian rights on Kosovo, which does not mean that I go against Albanian rights per force. I believe Kosovo should be independent on account of what happened not only 9 yrs ago but on account of unharmonius living in the last century. Of course, it can be only independent if Belgrade says yes, and if Serbs who live on Kosovo ask for independence as well. There is no other legal way. Because Kosovo is Serbia's territory.
Said this, Belgrade might give independence to Kosovo in the future, and as I stated, only if Kosovo Serbs together with Kosovo Albanians come to Belgrade and give valid proofs why they want the independence on the national territory. Serbia would not hesitate much in that case to accpet the independence.
As for your question "Do you think that Kososva would ever want to break away from Albania?" first we have to see if it joins Albania. I personally think Albania would not annex Kosovo. Albania already saw their conationals "spitting into the plate from which they ate", I mean Serbia, and on account of this experience, Albania would be afraid to see the repeated situation at home.

Well done Kosovo....LOL

An interesting report on France 24 news channel, Kosovo has a flag, wow, it has a constution, well done, independence? Not according to the UN. It has all things except, none of the institutions actually work, the goverment and police dont work together, Albanians dont pay there bills, the country is run by corrupt politians. oh well done Kosovo Albanians. What you will see is the partitioned Serb sectors start to move forward. WHen the new goverment in Belgrade comes into force the USA will support this goverment with money, whos really the successful one????