Macedonia: DUI wins more votes

Hail to BDI!
Now the Ohër\Ohrid agreement full implementation should be the next step.
To be honest, I think that even this agreement is too weak. I think that a Belgium Fleming-Wallon arrangement must be sought in order for Fyrom or Macedonia to function. Only in such a framework the Albanians will probably be loyal citizens of this state, otherwise we will always feel as second degree citizens, somekind of modern slaves.
And anybody who knows a little of the Albanian, knows very well that he is not used to live as a slave.

Peace to all, but as equals.

@4 Ermal

1. "In EU all the national languages of member nations are official."
No. There are about 70 languages spoken by eu citizens (not dialects or idioms) that are not official languages in ru although they are in their countries.

2. "Any kind of decision is made by full unanimity."
No. Some of the decisions require unanimity, most require the majority of 55% of the MP's and additionally a 65% (if i rememner correctly) of the total population of the eu. In other words if the block of big countries (in population) vote for something, then the rest have no chance.

3. "Any nation, no matter how little it is, can block any kind of decision, if this nation feels that it goes against its intersts"
Again no. This only applies in some areas of foreign affairs and some constitutional matters. The rest is like in point 2.

And Dan is right in one point. Kossovo will have to adopt a lot of new stuff in their constitution, if and when it ever reaches the stage of applying for beggining of negotiations with the eu. In other words, it is still without reason to discuss about Kossovo's eu future because there is nothing like that ahead for the next 10 years (I believe more) and even then, the albanians will have to surrender lots of their arrogance in favor of the Kossovo Serbians thanks to the misconception of multiculturalism that is leveling everything in Europe unfortunately, in compliance with the stupid usa political correctness.

Multiculturism is dead.You find one country in Europe where is working.Lokk at the immigrant ghetoes in France,
UK,Germany,denmark to mention
few.Lokk at the continuous assault of the Italian state against Romanians,Gypsies etc.Multiculturism is not a
substitute for power.This is what the Albanians want.We want share in power.

Ermal,

You are right. Either a Belgium type Fleming-Wallon arrangement or la fin of Macedonia by dividing it up, one part to Albania and the other part to Bulgaria.

One wonders why Albanians in Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia want to enter the multicultural EU on the basis of "equality," when they can't manage such multiculturalism locally. What kind of equality do you imagine the EU is going to give you beyond the provisions already in the Macedonian constitution? If anything, the EU will slowly strip your minority rights as rights become more individualized in a supranational entity.

Thank you Joe for the support!

Dan, I'm not understanding your criticism.
For as much as I know, the EU is not a threat for the national interests, even of those of the little nations. In EU all the national languages of member nations are official. Any kind of decision is made by full unanimity. Any nation, no matter how little it is, can block any kind of decision, if this nation feels that it goes against its intersts EU (actually, NATO, but the logic is the same) has helped Greece to make FYROM enter in negotiations for the name dispute and little Slovenia to negotiate the border issue with Croatia. So can you be more clear, what is your objection?

Turning on the issue here, I think the organisation of Macedonia like Belgiun would help this country turn into a truely fair and democratic country for both nationalities living there. With the logic of an oppresser and an oppressed, as it has been the case til 2001, and in a certain measure it is even today, we can not go forward in 21st century.

What happened this time and the election result is so different??? According to Gruevski, Thaci and the VMRO goverment, everything in the last elections was totally fair and allright!! So why such a different election result this time??

Imagine, that if Ahmeti hadn't threatened that he will start the violence and if the international observers wouldn't publically claim the election result is "twisted", the "democratically elected" goverment of VMRO-DPA would "govern" with the previous result!

This is how democracy really works in FYROM. Gruevsky gave the help of the police to Thaci so he can terrorize the albanians - not to vote for DUI - and after he claimed that the elections were "fair and democratic"!

And if the western observers and the albanians of DUI would "scream" about the stealing of votes and the violence, FYROM would be governed by the previous goverment now!

When a country cannot apply democracy and human rights to it's own citizens, it has no right to talk about human right abuses about other countries. And clearly - after the last elections - FYROM proved that is the most undemocratic and human rights abuser in the whole balkan region!

That was the half for Kossovo. Now for fyrom. Whatever you non-albanian fyromians do, you will still have the opposition of the albanians in your country. That is how those people are. As very well stated by one of them, "we want a share in power". Thats their only interest and aim. Power, by any means. What they dont get is that in eu they will not have any chance of such demands, since the eu isnt flexible with such things.

To Golden:

1) First the result is MUCH different not just sligtly different. During the last elections, the DPA took a percentage, close to 10% and one week later it gets 2 units down, with the DUI taking 2 points up! Don't you think that this is a significant difference for a country that was claiming that the election result was "fair and democratic"?? This election result really exposed Gruevsky and Thaci, who were claiming that the previous election result was "Fair and demosratic"! It proved that they "knew" but they were "silent" for their own reasons (they wanted to present DUI and DPA to have the same electoral strength, which proved wrong just 2 weeks later)..

2) Do you please deny that Gruevsky wanted Thaci as a counterpart in the goverment, and that's why he gave him the help of the state agencies and the police during the previous elections, so he can get bigger percentage, and weaken Ahmeti and DUI?? Do you deny that Thaci - with this help - made the terrorizing to the albanian population in the west of the country?? This happened exactly like this and it is a fact...and of course it holds Gruevsky directly responsible for that! That's why, no international officer agreed even to congratulate him!

3) What "human right" I would like for the albanians??? What about having albanian as the second official language of the country??? Even the Ohrid Agreement signed in 2001, foresses exactly that! What has your FYROM goverment done since the last 7 years, to aplly what it has signed! Isn't it a direct human right violation to the albanian population and a violation to the deal that your goverment signed 7 years ago??

So you see Golden, there is plenty your FYROM goverment could do in order to "appear" more democratic...

So you want multiculturalism ? Please, kindly move to Latin America.

Correction on my post:
This
"No. There are about 70 languages spoken by eu citizens (not dialects or idioms) that are not official languages in ru although they are in their countries."

Should read like this:
"No. There are about 50 languages spoken by eu citizens (not dialects or idioms) that are not official languages in eu although they are in their countries."

To Pavlos,

Dont know what elections you have been following but the result is not very much different to the initial count.

VMRO - Still hold the majority of government
DUI & DPA - Pretty much split down the middle with DUI now slightly ahead
SDSM - Lost in a landslide and will have to rebuild

Now DUI and DPA will argue about who will be invited to form government even though it will have zero effect as VMRO has majority and can push through reform without worry.

As for all the Albanians who want feel like second class citizens, that has to be a joke.

You have religious freedom, your free to study your language, your free to fly your flag, your free to sing your songs, you have TV & other media exposure and the list goes on and on...

What exactly do you want that you dont already have???

Joe

You are suggesting a 1939 Molotov-Ribentropp instead of a Belgium. Macedonia has nothing to do with Bulgaria or Albania, same way Belgium has nothing to do with the Netherlands or France. Splitting the country up and dividing it between two countries would be illegal.

But yes, I also think a Flemming-Walloon solution would be good for Macedonia, just not the way you put it.

Hail to BDI!
Now the Ohër\Ohrid agreement full implementation should be the next step.
To be honest, I think that even this agreement is too weak. I think that a Belgium Fleming-Wallon arrangement must be sought in order for Fyrom or Macedonia to function. Only in such a framework the Albanians will probably be loyal citizens of this state, otherwise we will always feel as second degree citizens, somekind of modern slaves.
And anybody who knows a little of the Albanian, knows very well that he is not used to live as a slave.

Peace to all, but as equals.

Ermal,

You are right. Either a Belgium type Fleming-Wallon arrangement or la fin of Macedonia by dividing it up, one part to Albania and the other part to Bulgaria.

Thank you Joe for the support!

Dan, I'm not understanding your criticism.
For as much as I know, the EU is not a threat for the national interests, even of those of the little nations. In EU all the national languages of member nations are official. Any kind of decision is made by full unanimity. Any nation, no matter how little it is, can block any kind of decision, if this nation feels that it goes against its intersts EU (actually, NATO, but the logic is the same) has helped Greece to make FYROM enter in negotiations for the name dispute and little Slovenia to negotiate the border issue with Croatia. So can you be more clear, what is your objection?

Turning on the issue here, I think the organisation of Macedonia like Belgiun would help this country turn into a truely fair and democratic country for both nationalities living there. With the logic of an oppresser and an oppressed, as it has been the case til 2001, and in a certain measure it is even today, we can not go forward in 21st century.

One wonders why Albanians in Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia want to enter the multicultural EU on the basis of "equality," when they can't manage such multiculturalism locally. What kind of equality do you imagine the EU is going to give you beyond the provisions already in the Macedonian constitution? If anything, the EU will slowly strip your minority rights as rights become more individualized in a supranational entity.

What happened this time and the election result is so different??? According to Gruevski, Thaci and the VMRO goverment, everything in the last elections was totally fair and allright!! So why such a different election result this time??

Imagine, that if Ahmeti hadn't threatened that he will start the violence and if the international observers wouldn't publically claim the election result is "twisted", the "democratically elected" goverment of VMRO-DPA would "govern" with the previous result!

This is how democracy really works in FYROM. Gruevsky gave the help of the police to Thaci so he can terrorize the albanians - not to vote for DUI - and after he claimed that the elections were "fair and democratic"!

And if the western observers and the albanians of DUI would "scream" about the stealing of votes and the violence, FYROM would be governed by the previous goverment now!

When a country cannot apply democracy and human rights to it's own citizens, it has no right to talk about human right abuses about other countries. And clearly - after the last elections - FYROM proved that is the most undemocratic and human rights abuser in the whole balkan region!

Multiculturism is dead.You find one country in Europe where is working.Lokk at the immigrant ghetoes in France,
UK,Germany,denmark to mention
few.Lokk at the continuous assault of the Italian state against Romanians,Gypsies etc.Multiculturism is not a
substitute for power.This is what the Albanians want.We want share in power.

@4 Ermal

1. "In EU all the national languages of member nations are official."
No. There are about 70 languages spoken by eu citizens (not dialects or idioms) that are not official languages in ru although they are in their countries.

2. "Any kind of decision is made by full unanimity."
No. Some of the decisions require unanimity, most require the majority of 55% of the MP's and additionally a 65% (if i rememner correctly) of the total population of the eu. In other words if the block of big countries (in population) vote for something, then the rest have no chance.

3. "Any nation, no matter how little it is, can block any kind of decision, if this nation feels that it goes against its intersts"
Again no. This only applies in some areas of foreign affairs and some constitutional matters. The rest is like in point 2.

And Dan is right in one point. Kossovo will have to adopt a lot of new stuff in their constitution, if and when it ever reaches the stage of applying for beggining of negotiations with the eu. In other words, it is still without reason to discuss about Kossovo's eu future because there is nothing like that ahead for the next 10 years (I believe more) and even then, the albanians will have to surrender lots of their arrogance in favor of the Kossovo Serbians thanks to the misconception of multiculturalism that is leveling everything in Europe unfortunately, in compliance with the stupid usa political correctness.

That was the half for Kossovo. Now for fyrom. Whatever you non-albanian fyromians do, you will still have the opposition of the albanians in your country. That is how those people are. As very well stated by one of them, "we want a share in power". Thats their only interest and aim. Power, by any means. What they dont get is that in eu they will not have any chance of such demands, since the eu isnt flexible with such things.

So you want multiculturalism ? Please, kindly move to Latin America.

Correction on my post:
This
"No. There are about 70 languages spoken by eu citizens (not dialects or idioms) that are not official languages in ru although they are in their countries."

Should read like this:
"No. There are about 50 languages spoken by eu citizens (not dialects or idioms) that are not official languages in eu although they are in their countries."

To Pavlos,

Dont know what elections you have been following but the result is not very much different to the initial count.

VMRO - Still hold the majority of government
DUI & DPA - Pretty much split down the middle with DUI now slightly ahead
SDSM - Lost in a landslide and will have to rebuild

Now DUI and DPA will argue about who will be invited to form government even though it will have zero effect as VMRO has majority and can push through reform without worry.

As for all the Albanians who want feel like second class citizens, that has to be a joke.

You have religious freedom, your free to study your language, your free to fly your flag, your free to sing your songs, you have TV & other media exposure and the list goes on and on...

What exactly do you want that you dont already have???

Joe

You are suggesting a 1939 Molotov-Ribentropp instead of a Belgium. Macedonia has nothing to do with Bulgaria or Albania, same way Belgium has nothing to do with the Netherlands or France. Splitting the country up and dividing it between two countries would be illegal.

But yes, I also think a Flemming-Walloon solution would be good for Macedonia, just not the way you put it.

To Golden:

1) First the result is MUCH different not just sligtly different. During the last elections, the DPA took a percentage, close to 10% and one week later it gets 2 units down, with the DUI taking 2 points up! Don't you think that this is a significant difference for a country that was claiming that the election result was "fair and democratic"?? This election result really exposed Gruevsky and Thaci, who were claiming that the previous election result was "Fair and demosratic"! It proved that they "knew" but they were "silent" for their own reasons (they wanted to present DUI and DPA to have the same electoral strength, which proved wrong just 2 weeks later)..

2) Do you please deny that Gruevsky wanted Thaci as a counterpart in the goverment, and that's why he gave him the help of the state agencies and the police during the previous elections, so he can get bigger percentage, and weaken Ahmeti and DUI?? Do you deny that Thaci - with this help - made the terrorizing to the albanian population in the west of the country?? This happened exactly like this and it is a fact...and of course it holds Gruevsky directly responsible for that! That's why, no international officer agreed even to congratulate him!

3) What "human right" I would like for the albanians??? What about having albanian as the second official language of the country??? Even the Ohrid Agreement signed in 2001, foresses exactly that! What has your FYROM goverment done since the last 7 years, to aplly what it has signed! Isn't it a direct human right violation to the albanian population and a violation to the deal that your goverment signed 7 years ago??

So you see Golden, there is plenty your FYROM goverment could do in order to "appear" more democratic...