Holland refuses to ratify SAA

Enough is enough...you have to honetsly admit and face dark past if you want to see a light in the future...

By repeating lies hundreds of times they wont and didn't become truth/s neither for the Dutch, nor the international community...

Sometime in life, you got to pay the bill...no matter how late...

Mike & others,

The Dutch turned a blind eye to the horrors of Oric and his fanatics. They ignored the massacres of over 3,000 Serbian villagers, women and children, surrounding Srebrenica. And in doing, were culpable for the crimes committed by those moslem forces.

They knew why Mladic came.

The collective guilt for their unwillingness to stop the moslem babarity prevented them from stopping him.

Now, in the true nature of western duplicity, they feign anger at the Serbs. A poor, transparent and woefully pathetic attempt to deflect from their complicity in the death of those Serbian villagers.

Shameful.

Its unbelievable how Serbs have convenced themselves that they are not responsible for any of their actions throughout the 90's. They blame the Dutch for atrocities SERBS committed! They blame "terrorists" for starting the war in Kosova! They blame NATO's bombing for the ethnic cleansing / mass exodus of Albanians in Kosova! You blame Croatia and Slovenia for both those wars! The Serbs were involved in every conflict that took place in the Balkans throughout the 90's yet they have managed to convince themselves that they werent responsible for any of them.

Strangly in the west it is reported as a clear rejection;

"Foreign Minister Maxime Verhagen justified his decision to reject the accord in parliament"
http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/1213134423.24

I guess if the Dutch can reassert conditions the same can be done by Serbia i.e. ratification only when Serbia's integrity is fully respected as an equal - unless of course Double Standards rule and of course the Serbian electorate will be told this is an internal messag eonly to the Dutch just as was the case of Belgium's FM 'fraud'ian gaffe "My understanding is that we signed the agreement with Serbia itself, without Kosovo"

Oh what a tangled web we weave...

The Netherlands have been clear from the beginning that full cooperation is a requirement for ratification. So no false promises can be claimed.
It is important for the Netherlands that Serbia takes responsibility for its past. (The Dutch government at the time resigned over Srebrenica.) If Serbia would just start with sharing information, witness protecting schemes and giving access to the archives things would start to look different. That would show that Serbia is ready to live up to the responsibilities that come with being a EU member state.

By the way, I wonder if ‘Daniel’ ever went to the Netherlands. We don’t wear wooden shoes anymore, we don’t crash our bikes (only tourists do), and we certainly do not cycle in the red-light district. Not that any of this has anything to do with the issue at hand.

I can understand why the Dutch are mad at the Serbs for not cooperating with the tribunal. First, it's in Holland, and I'm sure they need the money it brings; Court officials have to spend their time somewhere, right? It might as well be a weekend cycling into the red-light district. Second, Serbs are not cooperating over Kosovo, and this is angering the Dutch. They need Kosovo's sex slave trade to fill the shop windows in the red-light district. Third, I think their wooden shoes are getting too tight. Fourth, they may have crashed too many times with their bicycles. Have you ever seen how recklessly they ride around Amsterdam?

This is more out of Dutch collective guilt than Serbian punishment. We all remember how the Dutch basically let Mladic into Srebrenica, a so-called "safe haven". The Dutch have just as much blood on their hands as Mladic does. Notice how every other EU member has no problem with ratifying Serbia's SAA application. Only the Dutch. To do so would violate their own memories of guilt and participation in one of the ethnic cleansings of Bosnia. This is them saving face and little else.

i think serbia will join eu but in the year 2999

"i think serbia will join eu but in the year 2999"

And Albania and Kosovo will join in 3999. LOL!

The Dutch troops at Srebrenica certainly didn't like Oric and his cronies, let alone sympathize. Considering the NIOD report where it was the US that deliberately denied military/SIGNIT intelligence information to the DutchBat in Srebrenica. Clinton was reported back in 1993 that a 'good' massacre of Bosnian moslems was needed to bring military intervention. Cui bono?

The Dutch government policy is to pander to the moslem world to repair the 'damage' their troops did and the 'joys' of such tolerant people as Theo van Gogh, the re-publishing of the (danish) anti-moslems cartoons and other anti-moslem 'events' etc. (the cartoons were not republished in the UK and US as they were considered as incitement and racist).

It is hypocrisy practiced at the highest level, and with a straight face!

To world citizen & some of the other ill-informed,

Nowhere in my post do I refute the death of approximately 4,000 armed moslem soldiers in Srebrenica by the Bosnian Serb army (the 8,000 number has been proved a propaganda ploy some time ago as some of the "dead" showed up in uniform elsewhere and even voted in elections!)

My point is two-fold:

1) why is the death of armed soldiers guilty of untold massacres a genocide when the murder of over 3,000 unarmed Serbian civilians, women and children, by these same forces is dismissed in western courts of law (The Hague is a Dutch instrument ironically)

2) Had the Dutch done their jobs thoroughly and unarmed the moslems while protecting the Serbian villagers, the Bosnian army wouldn't have had to do it for them.

Surely if the crimes of the Albanians can be dismissed as "acts of revenge". . .why the double standard for Serbs?

Carrots are a good source of vitamin "A". Obviously, Serbia needs either new elections or more vitamin "B".

Nemanja is closer to the truth than Massimo, though Del Ponte puts the death of Serbs in the Bihac pocket at 2,000, not 3,000. But the Dutch were there for the entire time of mutual recriminations.

Also, to correct Massimo, Bosnian men were killed at Srebernica, not women and children. You need to read up on the case.

Further supporting Nemanja's point is testimony given by UN generals at the Hague. Both the French UN general Morillon and a Dutch general testified that they believed the massacre at Srebernica was in revenge for Oric's murders.

The fact is Oric is celebrated by the Bosnian Muslims in that pocket, and when he was released by the tribunal, they partied. This gives you a very clear idea that Serbs and Muslims are not likely to commingle in Bosnia any time soon, and it really makes you think about the country's status. The tribunal didn't want to offend the leadership of the country which was tight with Oric, which also explains why Oric abandoned the Bosnian men under his command at Srebernica, and allowed the Serbs to massacre them. So it wasn't only the Dutch that went along willingly, it was also Oric and Izebetgovic who abandoned those men.

Why? For PR points.

There are some sick puppies running around in that pocket.

to burim:

We Serbs speak the truth. So what if Serbs were involved in all those wars? Are you saying other sides weren't? We were just protecting our land and our people, if we wanted to take over the whole Jugoslavija we could have, but you see that was not the goal. And of course we did not start the wars, and that's a fact. Are you saying albanians didn't provoke with cowardly terrorist acts? Everyone knows they did. The CIA supported this, they even financed the uck, to achieve america's goals. So please don't come here and spread lies.

I'm Dutch and live in Belgrade. First of all, I think that every party in the Balkan conflict has guilt. And so does the international community: Yugosalvia had to die and countries like Germany and the US did everything to make it happen.
Serbs have done a lot of warcrimes but was also hysterically portraited as Nazis. Croatia of course started ethnic cleasing first but noone talks about that. It was far easier to blame Serbia for everything, even for things that Croats, Moslims of Albanians did.

Now something about Maxime Verhagen. He is what we call more papan than the Pope. He is a conservative Catholic and Catholics think they have the true Christian faith. They don't like Protestants, let alone Orthodox.
You see, my country is being run (and ruined) by a deep religious government that more and more wants to impose a regime of what they call "norms and values". A few examples: Denmark protects its cartoonist. In Holland they get arrested.
They want to limit the freedom of expression and wanted to extent the law on blasphomy (so called to protect the Moslims in Holland that we always have to appease).
Really, the Liberal Holland under this regime is a thing of the past.

Maxime Verhagen takes this moralistic approach to an international level. Holland always want to be the best kid in the classroom and loves to raise the moralistic finger as to show others how to behave.

Most of the people of Holland or the Netherlands as we are called wants the goverment to fall. And more people start to become aware of what really happened in the Balkans and what the new role of NATO and the EU is in the new world order.
So, we are not all against you.

Dear Serbian Friend’s,

Every time I read something here in blogs I see same pattern, you hide your guilt with oh but they did this to us. In Bosnia you killed many many people in the worst way possible, understand that and accept it.

If two people tell you are drunk then start looking for the wall to hold, the world has taken notice you are not going to hide by saying but hay this is happening or this happened to us.

My advice is to catch those blood thurstie men and close the chapter in the history, until then you can not move forward and you will not be forgiven.

Wake up and start being responsible adults don’t not try to twist history, you can not change what we have on tape from 1990’s the world was watching.

Sooner the better

What on earth is "Kosova"? It has no meaning in any language. Kosovo Polje = Blackbird Plain. The Albanian extremists keep pretending they didn't wage a campaign of racist ethnic cleansing since the 1980s, keep pretending they haven't forced out hundreds of thousands of Serbs and Roma not to mention fellow Albanians, keep pretending they haven't burned down or destroyed hundreds of ancient churches. If Christians even make cartoons about Muslims, there are riots with people getting killed. But the whole world sits by and does nothing when Albanians destroy priceless cultural heritage because the victims are Orthodox Christians. Keep pretending, UCK supporters. People are starting to wake up and realize they've been duped.

As far as the Dutch go, we all know this is hypocritical nonsense. The Dutch didn't make any such demands regarding the criminals of Croatia and no demands at all have been made on the Slovenes regarding their war crimes.

Even without this Dutch statement Serbia's chances to join the EU during the years to come are close to zero. There are a lot of other obstacles for that. So I believe that the shortest way to Brussels is through Moscow. Serbs must blackmail the West with closer cooperation with Russia in all branches. By betraying your heroes to enemy's tribunal and repeating the integration manthras you will not be closer to EU. Most of the countries oppose your membership and God knows what's gonna happen if the EU Constitution poll in Ireland fails as expected.

Russia is opening the door for you. For instance Moscow Government presses upon food retail to switch green lights for Serbian canned foods. Russia's most greedy man Finanace Minister Kudrin is ready to offer favor loans and make direct investments. Gasprom and Deripaska are waiting for the new Government to be formed. So the problem is not in Russia but in Serbia. You have to stop dreaming and be more realistic. Besides EU and US do not have even half of the free cash obtained by Russia. Why do you miss your chance ?

Напред Српска !

Verhagan hasn't helped the DS cause has he?

Their entire pre and post-election promises have been based upon the SAA being a valid document that proves DS will accelerate Serbia's entry into the EU.

Does the DS have it in its power to cooperate with ICTY to the level which the Netherlands and Belgium demand?

what rotten news at the most inopportune time for Tadic & Co. !

In my opinion the Netherlands behave towards Serbia in that way above all because of the shame for the Srebrenica's massacre, in which the Dutch army gave up protecting the Bosniak civilians (predominantly women and children).

to burim:

"You continue to spread your ready made talking points in an attempt to convince people that Serbs were the victims."

So Serbs werne't this victims? Why is there only 5 Serbs left in Pristina compared to 98-99? Maybe they decied to fly away.

"Accept the fact that you lost!"

You mean the way uck got destroyed by Serb army in 2 weeks? Is that what you call a loss?

"How can you call what the Albanians did cowardly?"

Well very simple, TERRORIST ATTACKS (kidnapping, torturing, murdering, putting bombs in cafes, murdering civillians/police). I was there so saying these things did not occur is pure LIES! People couldn't even live civillized just because albanians wanted to steal our land. Do you think Milosevic sent in the army for no reason?

"They were defending their homes and families! "

Ya after the cowardly terrorist provocations.

It is on Serbia`s favour that most of EU citizen are not interested on Balkan topics. If they would only notice the appseasement policy toward Serbia strong protest would be adequate. Today´s Serbia is as radical as this of 1990. The overwhelming majority votes fanatic radical parties. If the EU-Member accepts today´s Serbia in the EU, than all our military Effords were wrong, the organized killing and deployment in Bosnia and Kosovo were right. Serbia is clearly declaring they do not regret any of theiraction in Kosovo and would like to establish the status before 1999.
EU should think about that you can not wage a war, station your troops there and then not be consequent forwarding your claims. In this view Serbia has been absolutely reliable and has never changed their position, while Europeans still have no common position.

Serbia hankers after something, which will not be given unless it abandons Kosovo...WHY...??

Perhaps the Serbs forget there is life outside EU's hypocritical world as well...but its upto them to accept that...!

Why have the Serbs become like this?

Greg, 11 June 2008, 13:36 wrote:
"The overwhelming majority votes fanatic radical parties"

World citizen, 11 June 2008, 15:32 Wrote:

Every time I read something here in blogs I see same pattern, you hide your guilt with oh but they did this to us. In Bosnia you killed many many people in the worst way possible, understand that and accept it.

Greg and W.C (hehe), Our "fanatical radical party" is more democratic than all the EU democratic parties put together. Its the EU and US who are bombing and killing humans in sovereign countries, without any UN approval - sounds very democratic to me. Too bad they hide all the deaths and ofcourse no one will be accountable for the torture of the prisoners and "accidental" killing of over 50,000 civilians (real dead not the hollywood stuff from the Bosnian civil war - please get that straight WC, it was a civil war full stop).

Thanks for the offer but you can shove the EU where it fits, most Serbs dont want in the EU they just want to be left alone. Those that want to leave wants Serbia in the EU so they can leave easier.

The correct name for the country is the Netherlands. Holland is just the west part of the country. So according to this report, the Western Province of the Netherlands refused to ratify the SAA.

I lived in Holland for 15 years and have a Dutch husband. We moved to the US 3 years ago because living in Holland (or the Netherlands as somebody gave here a stupid patronizing 'lesson')became
completely a waste of time.
They can't manage their Muslim population, highest unemployment in EU, complete lack of human interactions. Among many other equally urgent problems.
Yap, but there are many RIGID RULES, the RULES that are there as a substitute for everything that's lacking in your life.
I have very many great friends back in Holland, don't misunderstand me.
But the Dutch system totally sucks. And this is what everybody knows whoever stayed in Holland longer than just holidays.
I feel really pity for my homeland Serbia that Holland is opposing its progress all the time. Too many Dutch officials are somehow in charge with Serbia: Peter Feith (he's such a waste of time), Jap Scheffer (NATO),
Hague Tribunal (farce) etc,etc.
Somebody must complain about this fact.
But luckily the Dutch can be also forced out. Just wait and you'll see they'll know when the time has come to change the rhetorics.
And finally, don't take things that emotionally, politics is played in EU like a sport or a game.

J,
(12 June 2008 10:49)

well thanks you for this insight
in who Maxine Verhangen is and how people start to see what NATO does in the 'NWO'.
Unfortunately this knowledge which slowly starts to spread around the world will remain for many years 'alternative', 'inconvenient' and 'undemocratic' 'truth'; depending on who's talking.

I also cannot stand how Russia's support to Serbia is labeled 'reactionary' and 'unprogressive'.

If somebody is reactionary and on top totally immature are indeed those EU politicians.

So, Serbia will never become an EU candidate until a Montenegrian psychiatrist Radovan Karadjic and a Bosnian Chief of Staff of the "Bosnian" army are arrested and planed to the Hag.

(Dan #5 is optimistic)
So,whatever Tadic signs isn't worth the paper on which it's written on. And, this is just the beginning.
Just wait until Lichtenstein, Andorra,Latvia or Estonia express their "reservations" about Serbia's becoming a "candidate", never mind the member, of the EU.
When you are flying against a wall you may feel quite smug until you actually hit it.
Well, as the saying goes: Lord punishes by taking the mind away- the rest follows by itself.

Willem, Greg,

You are both absolutely right. In case Mladic not even Tadic showed the slightest sign of cooperation (it was only ridiculous lip service). Instead of drawing the red line most EU members resorted to appeasement of the highest level. No wonder that Serbian politicians - including the so-called liberals - felt their attitude of complete disregard justified and rewarded. The Netherlands s/b admired and praised for their principled attitude.

The Internaitonal Court of Justice in the Hague rules that Serbia has no responsibility for what happenned in Bosnia.

Therefore the Dutch are setting up double standards. Their claims contradict the ICJ ruling.

The Dutch are doing this because they can't punish Bosnia -- whose own citizens according to the ICJ ruling are responsible for what happenned in Srebrenica and throughout Bosnia.

Furthermore, anyone who makes ridicoulous claims about Srevrenica should read "Planned Chaos" by Ibran Mustafic.

OK, so what are the chances of convincing the Serbian public to hand over their citizens to the NATO court? Well, we should all know this is not popular.

But hold on, give them some nice and juicy EU carrots and tell them of this wonderful place where everyone loves them and they can become members and get them all excited and then.....

.......take those carrots away............

Oh.... how dissapointed those poor souls would be...... no more wonderland where everyone loves them and they can become the super mega wealthy toilet cleaners they have always wanted to be.....

........but hold one, lets hand over one of those people to the NATO court and all will be solved.... the people will be happy again and the juicy carrots return....

OH, did the Serbian people just agree to handing over a citizen to the NATO court?

fools!

It has to be that the Dutch have decided that keeping the Balkans in a chaotic and destabilised state is in their interest. It's a shame that no international organisations ever looked at the beastly way that the Dutch carried on in Indonesia. They have little room to preach to others about ethnic cleansing.

to Ratko:

"So what if Serbs were involved in all those wars? Are you saying other sides weren't?" This absolutely proves that Burim is right as far as the part of Serb poppulation you are an example of is concerned.

Serbs engaged in every single war, with another enemy every time. Most people see a red line, a pattern...

"We were just protecting our land and our people"

In a past not too distant, a nation was fighting for "Lebensraum". They too, just like you, thought they were right and the rest of the world (except for fascist allies such as Italy and Japan) were wrong.

Replace Ïtaly"and "Japan"with "Russia"and "China"and take a look in the mirror.

ZK UK already said here on 28 April 2008 11:47

The conditions still remain and it does not come into force until those conditions are met.

I say: the position of Belgium and the Netherlands were always clear. their conditions were declared open (and not afterwards) and it is up to Serbia to realise results.

at the moment 1/4 of the way is done - it is a fantastic evidence for the whole world, that it is possible to capture those who are sought after by the Hague. a great day for Serbia!

To Ratko:

Just because you conveniently forget what happened during the Milosevic years doesnt mean everyone else has! You gloss over the fact that Serbia was involved in all these conflicts as if it weren't a big deal. You continue to spread your ready made talking points in an attempt to convince people that Serbs were the victims. Everyone knows they are lies! Your efforts in creating a Greater Serbia have left you isolated and on your knees begging that Russia doesnt leave your side. Accept the fact that you lost! Serbia lost each and every battle she waged.

How can you call what the Albanians did cowardly? They were defending their homes and families! The true cowards were Serb soldiers / para-militaries forcing families to gather their belongings in ten minutes and than proceeding to burn their homes. I'm sure you have a good reason / excuse that will show how the Serbs were victims in those instances as well, right?

topic was SAA ... and where did it end up? at Ratko defending crimes! I remember the day, when a Serbian woman had to watch accidently on TV, that her husband was a killer. thanks god, facts are not always shown like this, Ratko, your country would be very very quiet.

I notice Blic offered 6 pages today on politics but found just 1" square space to mention Verhagen's comments.

Seems Blic is frightened that their readership is not ready for a full expose of the 'truth' just yet.

No doubt DS has a cunning plan, if they get into government, to blame Kostunica for the Dutch and Belgium failure to ratify the SAA.

"The Netherlands have been clear from the beginning that full cooperation is a requirement for ratification. So no false promises can be claimed.
It is important for the Netherlands that Serbia takes responsibility for its past. (The Dutch government at the time resigned over Srebrenica.) If Serbia would just start with sharing information, witness protecting schemes and giving access to the archives things would start to look different. That would show that Serbia is ready to live up to the responsibilities that come with being a EU member state.

By the way, I wonder if ‘Daniel’ ever went to the Netherlands. We don’t wear wooden shoes anymore, we don’t crash our bikes (only tourists do), and we certainly do not cycle in the red-light district. Not that any of this has anything to do with the issue at hand."
(Willem, 11 June 2008 13:26)

thank you, willem, for articulating a much needed clarification, given so many unending lies and rationalizations from the nationalists. i am so sick of their mundacity i could scream!!! Argh!!! how dare they traffic in the dead, always excusing the butchery of non-serbs. it is a position absolutely morally bankrupt, which is so obvious it seems a sin to have to even write it.

i happen to have traveled through the netherlands ("Holland")on a number of occasions, and have always been treated well -- it has an amazing culture; even "ordinary" people will go out of their way to help you out. i have been assisted by dutch the world over, even inside poland during the Iron curtain days, but that is another story.

yes, there is some tension between some native dutch and some muslims living there. and yes, the dutch forces did surrender thousands of people to mladic and his evil forces, knowing what would happen to them. it was a horror, and the dutch govt deserved to fall because of it. i will never excuse it. but to even think for one SECOND that there is a moral equivalence between the small dutch force there and mladic's forces of genocide, is the product of the worst, most unbalanced kind of thinking.

let each of us take responsibility for what we do and what we don't do, and the same of our countries. but let us never relativize it all, claiming that "they" are all the same. they aren't!

roberto-frisco

Dear Dutch friend J, it is very embarrassing for you to take part in the discussion for the Netherland's behaviour in the recent past even if it is more than obvious that nobody should bear the burden of the facts related to the history of a particular country/government.

"The correct name for the country is the Netherlands. Holland is just the west part of the country. So according to this report, the Western Province of the Netherlands refused to ratify the SAA.
(Ijanderson977, 11 June 2008 11:02)"

Being Dutch, I can confirm that the country is properly called The Netherlands. However, the country is known as "Holland" rather than "the Netherlands". It is comparable that, until recently, the common state of Serbia, Montenegro and Kosova was mostly known as "Serbia", even though Serbia formed only a part of the territory that is now divided between 3 countries.

V,

Verhagen and the Dutch goverment are moralists and their wish to isolate Serbia is a lack of vision.
But there are those that realize that Serbia has a strategic geographical position and don't want a strong Serbia.

Do warcriminals be convicted for their warcrimes? Yes indeed.
But one can have serious doubts on the impartiality of the Yugoslav tribunual in the Hague, as someone called it here 'the NATO' court. It's a victor's court.

Before coming to Serbia I also had the view that so many other people have of Serbia. We were brainwashed by our media. I don't defend Serbia for its warcrimes that it indeed commited. But like I said, ALL parties were guilty and also the international community. After the collapse of the Iron curtain, Yugoslavia had lost its geopolitical use to the West so it had to go. Germany interfered in Croatia and the US in Bosnia because the US foreign policy focus is the Middle East so therefore to please the ME included 'defending' Bosnia.
The whole NATO interference in the former Yugosalvia was just prelude for the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and God knows what' next.
I guess I'm not telling anything new.

I think you have to see the world as you would look at the world of say the Romans.
It's all about the power and small countries like Serbia and indeed Holland are just pons in big empire's chessgames.

Niko Bellic is probably also wanted by the war crimes Hague tribunal In the Netherlands, And Serbia cannot become an EU candidate country before Niko is on a plane flying to the Hague :)

Richard,

The reason that Serbs were involved in every war is due to the fact that Serbs formed part of the population of Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. And they were there for centuries because Yugoslavia has always been multi-ethnical and multi-religious. Serbs formed almost one third of the population of Croatia and almost half of the population of Bosnia. Currently only 3% of Coratia is Serb. Croatia kicked out (with help of the US and Germany) almost all Serbs. Clinton armed the Moslims and the region was flooded with Mujahedin and Al Qaeda. Same with the KLA in Kosovo.

Every minority in the region is granted selfdetermination except for the Serbs in Bosnia or Croatia.

You're analogy with Nazi Germany is a false one. There is more relation between the Nazis and Croatia. Have a look at WWII. Croatia was fascist and killed tens of thousands of Serbs.

Nobody in the West understood the complex make up of the region. Or maybe they understood it very well and used it to their own advantage.....

Serbia, now is your chance. It is time to join Russia & it's CIS. It is the only correct path for the survival of your nation & religion.

Since when have the Dutch been a model for moral value law and order- REMEMBER 'APARTIED' IN SOUTH AFRICA - DUTCH in origin! These Dutch also house the KANGAROO COURT - THE HAGUE - built to protect NATO from there own crimes.

Good news actually. Think of the imposibility of Kosov-ugh joining any international establishment where those that oppose it have the power to stop it. Most likely, they will be denied in all international fraternities of any imnport.

“They knew why Mladic came.”

Obviously. Mladic came to Srebrenica to wipe out the last remnant of resident Bosnian resistence in the western part of the Drina with the intent to annex the Bosnian Serb para-state with Serbia, creating thus Greater Serbia.

He almost got there, but due to Western pressure and Milosevic's fall, he got on the run.

Ofcourse no way.. to many war criminals walking around free in serbia and any visa liberation whith serbia is a dissster and big welcome of crimes around the EU since we all know Serbia has done numerous wars and way of big damage in ballkan..

I can understand why the Dutch are mad at the Serbs for not cooperating with the tribunal. First, it's in Holland, and I'm sure they need the money it brings; Court officials have to spend their time somewhere, right? It might as well be a weekend cycling into the red-light district. Second, Serbs are not cooperating over Kosovo, and this is angering the Dutch. They need Kosovo's sex slave trade to fill the shop windows in the red-light district. Third, I think their wooden shoes are getting too tight. Fourth, they may have crashed too many times with their bicycles. Have you ever seen how recklessly they ride around Amsterdam?

Dear Serbian Friend’s,

Every time I read something here in blogs I see same pattern, you hide your guilt with oh but they did this to us. In Bosnia you killed many many people in the worst way possible, understand that and accept it.

If two people tell you are drunk then start looking for the wall to hold, the world has taken notice you are not going to hide by saying but hay this is happening or this happened to us.

My advice is to catch those blood thurstie men and close the chapter in the history, until then you can not move forward and you will not be forgiven.

Wake up and start being responsible adults don’t not try to twist history, you can not change what we have on tape from 1990’s the world was watching.

Sooner the better

It is on Serbia`s favour that most of EU citizen are not interested on Balkan topics. If they would only notice the appseasement policy toward Serbia strong protest would be adequate. Today´s Serbia is as radical as this of 1990. The overwhelming majority votes fanatic radical parties. If the EU-Member accepts today´s Serbia in the EU, than all our military Effords were wrong, the organized killing and deployment in Bosnia and Kosovo were right. Serbia is clearly declaring they do not regret any of theiraction in Kosovo and would like to establish the status before 1999.
EU should think about that you can not wage a war, station your troops there and then not be consequent forwarding your claims. In this view Serbia has been absolutely reliable and has never changed their position, while Europeans still have no common position.

"i think serbia will join eu but in the year 2999"

And Albania and Kosovo will join in 3999. LOL!

The Dutch troops at Srebrenica certainly didn't like Oric and his cronies, let alone sympathize. Considering the NIOD report where it was the US that deliberately denied military/SIGNIT intelligence information to the DutchBat in Srebrenica. Clinton was reported back in 1993 that a 'good' massacre of Bosnian moslems was needed to bring military intervention. Cui bono?

The Dutch government policy is to pander to the moslem world to repair the 'damage' their troops did and the 'joys' of such tolerant people as Theo van Gogh, the re-publishing of the (danish) anti-moslems cartoons and other anti-moslem 'events' etc. (the cartoons were not republished in the UK and US as they were considered as incitement and racist).

It is hypocrisy practiced at the highest level, and with a straight face!

To Ratko:

Just because you conveniently forget what happened during the Milosevic years doesnt mean everyone else has! You gloss over the fact that Serbia was involved in all these conflicts as if it weren't a big deal. You continue to spread your ready made talking points in an attempt to convince people that Serbs were the victims. Everyone knows they are lies! Your efforts in creating a Greater Serbia have left you isolated and on your knees begging that Russia doesnt leave your side. Accept the fact that you lost! Serbia lost each and every battle she waged.

How can you call what the Albanians did cowardly? They were defending their homes and families! The true cowards were Serb soldiers / para-militaries forcing families to gather their belongings in ten minutes and than proceeding to burn their homes. I'm sure you have a good reason / excuse that will show how the Serbs were victims in those instances as well, right?

The correct name for the country is the Netherlands. Holland is just the west part of the country. So according to this report, the Western Province of the Netherlands refused to ratify the SAA.

i think serbia will join eu but in the year 2999

The Netherlands have been clear from the beginning that full cooperation is a requirement for ratification. So no false promises can be claimed.
It is important for the Netherlands that Serbia takes responsibility for its past. (The Dutch government at the time resigned over Srebrenica.) If Serbia would just start with sharing information, witness protecting schemes and giving access to the archives things would start to look different. That would show that Serbia is ready to live up to the responsibilities that come with being a EU member state.

By the way, I wonder if ‘Daniel’ ever went to the Netherlands. We don’t wear wooden shoes anymore, we don’t crash our bikes (only tourists do), and we certainly do not cycle in the red-light district. Not that any of this has anything to do with the issue at hand.

Serbia hankers after something, which will not be given unless it abandons Kosovo...WHY...??

Perhaps the Serbs forget there is life outside EU's hypocritical world as well...but its upto them to accept that...!

Why have the Serbs become like this?

Mike & others,

The Dutch turned a blind eye to the horrors of Oric and his fanatics. They ignored the massacres of over 3,000 Serbian villagers, women and children, surrounding Srebrenica. And in doing, were culpable for the crimes committed by those moslem forces.

They knew why Mladic came.

The collective guilt for their unwillingness to stop the moslem babarity prevented them from stopping him.

Now, in the true nature of western duplicity, they feign anger at the Serbs. A poor, transparent and woefully pathetic attempt to deflect from their complicity in the death of those Serbian villagers.

Shameful.

Willem, Greg,

You are both absolutely right. In case Mladic not even Tadic showed the slightest sign of cooperation (it was only ridiculous lip service). Instead of drawing the red line most EU members resorted to appeasement of the highest level. No wonder that Serbian politicians - including the so-called liberals - felt their attitude of complete disregard justified and rewarded. The Netherlands s/b admired and praised for their principled attitude.

"The correct name for the country is the Netherlands. Holland is just the west part of the country. So according to this report, the Western Province of the Netherlands refused to ratify the SAA.
(Ijanderson977, 11 June 2008 11:02)"

Being Dutch, I can confirm that the country is properly called The Netherlands. However, the country is known as "Holland" rather than "the Netherlands". It is comparable that, until recently, the common state of Serbia, Montenegro and Kosova was mostly known as "Serbia", even though Serbia formed only a part of the territory that is now divided between 3 countries.

Strangly in the west it is reported as a clear rejection;

"Foreign Minister Maxime Verhagen justified his decision to reject the accord in parliament"
http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/1213134423.24

I guess if the Dutch can reassert conditions the same can be done by Serbia i.e. ratification only when Serbia's integrity is fully respected as an equal - unless of course Double Standards rule and of course the Serbian electorate will be told this is an internal messag eonly to the Dutch just as was the case of Belgium's FM 'fraud'ian gaffe "My understanding is that we signed the agreement with Serbia itself, without Kosovo"

Oh what a tangled web we weave...

This is more out of Dutch collective guilt than Serbian punishment. We all remember how the Dutch basically let Mladic into Srebrenica, a so-called "safe haven". The Dutch have just as much blood on their hands as Mladic does. Notice how every other EU member has no problem with ratifying Serbia's SAA application. Only the Dutch. To do so would violate their own memories of guilt and participation in one of the ethnic cleansings of Bosnia. This is them saving face and little else.

ZK UK already said here on 28 April 2008 11:47

The conditions still remain and it does not come into force until those conditions are met.

I say: the position of Belgium and the Netherlands were always clear. their conditions were declared open (and not afterwards) and it is up to Serbia to realise results.

at the moment 1/4 of the way is done - it is a fantastic evidence for the whole world, that it is possible to capture those who are sought after by the Hague. a great day for Serbia!

Its unbelievable how Serbs have convenced themselves that they are not responsible for any of their actions throughout the 90's. They blame the Dutch for atrocities SERBS committed! They blame "terrorists" for starting the war in Kosova! They blame NATO's bombing for the ethnic cleansing / mass exodus of Albanians in Kosova! You blame Croatia and Slovenia for both those wars! The Serbs were involved in every conflict that took place in the Balkans throughout the 90's yet they have managed to convince themselves that they werent responsible for any of them.

Enough is enough...you have to honetsly admit and face dark past if you want to see a light in the future...

By repeating lies hundreds of times they wont and didn't become truth/s neither for the Dutch, nor the international community...

Sometime in life, you got to pay the bill...no matter how late...

topic was SAA ... and where did it end up? at Ratko defending crimes! I remember the day, when a Serbian woman had to watch accidently on TV, that her husband was a killer. thanks god, facts are not always shown like this, Ratko, your country would be very very quiet.

I lived in Holland for 15 years and have a Dutch husband. We moved to the US 3 years ago because living in Holland (or the Netherlands as somebody gave here a stupid patronizing 'lesson')became
completely a waste of time.
They can't manage their Muslim population, highest unemployment in EU, complete lack of human interactions. Among many other equally urgent problems.
Yap, but there are many RIGID RULES, the RULES that are there as a substitute for everything that's lacking in your life.
I have very many great friends back in Holland, don't misunderstand me.
But the Dutch system totally sucks. And this is what everybody knows whoever stayed in Holland longer than just holidays.
I feel really pity for my homeland Serbia that Holland is opposing its progress all the time. Too many Dutch officials are somehow in charge with Serbia: Peter Feith (he's such a waste of time), Jap Scheffer (NATO),
Hague Tribunal (farce) etc,etc.
Somebody must complain about this fact.
But luckily the Dutch can be also forced out. Just wait and you'll see they'll know when the time has come to change the rhetorics.
And finally, don't take things that emotionally, politics is played in EU like a sport or a game.

Dear Dutch friend J, it is very embarrassing for you to take part in the discussion for the Netherland's behaviour in the recent past even if it is more than obvious that nobody should bear the burden of the facts related to the history of a particular country/government.

to Ratko:

"So what if Serbs were involved in all those wars? Are you saying other sides weren't?" This absolutely proves that Burim is right as far as the part of Serb poppulation you are an example of is concerned.

Serbs engaged in every single war, with another enemy every time. Most people see a red line, a pattern...

"We were just protecting our land and our people"

In a past not too distant, a nation was fighting for "Lebensraum". They too, just like you, thought they were right and the rest of the world (except for fascist allies such as Italy and Japan) were wrong.

Replace Ïtaly"and "Japan"with "Russia"and "China"and take a look in the mirror.

Carrots are a good source of vitamin "A". Obviously, Serbia needs either new elections or more vitamin "B".

(Dan #5 is optimistic)
So,whatever Tadic signs isn't worth the paper on which it's written on. And, this is just the beginning.
Just wait until Lichtenstein, Andorra,Latvia or Estonia express their "reservations" about Serbia's becoming a "candidate", never mind the member, of the EU.
When you are flying against a wall you may feel quite smug until you actually hit it.
Well, as the saying goes: Lord punishes by taking the mind away- the rest follows by itself.

what rotten news at the most inopportune time for Tadic & Co. !

Verhagan hasn't helped the DS cause has he?

Their entire pre and post-election promises have been based upon the SAA being a valid document that proves DS will accelerate Serbia's entry into the EU.

Does the DS have it in its power to cooperate with ICTY to the level which the Netherlands and Belgium demand?

In my opinion the Netherlands behave towards Serbia in that way above all because of the shame for the Srebrenica's massacre, in which the Dutch army gave up protecting the Bosniak civilians (predominantly women and children).

Nemanja is closer to the truth than Massimo, though Del Ponte puts the death of Serbs in the Bihac pocket at 2,000, not 3,000. But the Dutch were there for the entire time of mutual recriminations.

Also, to correct Massimo, Bosnian men were killed at Srebernica, not women and children. You need to read up on the case.

Further supporting Nemanja's point is testimony given by UN generals at the Hague. Both the French UN general Morillon and a Dutch general testified that they believed the massacre at Srebernica was in revenge for Oric's murders.

The fact is Oric is celebrated by the Bosnian Muslims in that pocket, and when he was released by the tribunal, they partied. This gives you a very clear idea that Serbs and Muslims are not likely to commingle in Bosnia any time soon, and it really makes you think about the country's status. The tribunal didn't want to offend the leadership of the country which was tight with Oric, which also explains why Oric abandoned the Bosnian men under his command at Srebernica, and allowed the Serbs to massacre them. So it wasn't only the Dutch that went along willingly, it was also Oric and Izebetgovic who abandoned those men.

Why? For PR points.

There are some sick puppies running around in that pocket.

To world citizen & some of the other ill-informed,

Nowhere in my post do I refute the death of approximately 4,000 armed moslem soldiers in Srebrenica by the Bosnian Serb army (the 8,000 number has been proved a propaganda ploy some time ago as some of the "dead" showed up in uniform elsewhere and even voted in elections!)

My point is two-fold:

1) why is the death of armed soldiers guilty of untold massacres a genocide when the murder of over 3,000 unarmed Serbian civilians, women and children, by these same forces is dismissed in western courts of law (The Hague is a Dutch instrument ironically)

2) Had the Dutch done their jobs thoroughly and unarmed the moslems while protecting the Serbian villagers, the Bosnian army wouldn't have had to do it for them.

Surely if the crimes of the Albanians can be dismissed as "acts of revenge". . .why the double standard for Serbs?

What on earth is "Kosova"? It has no meaning in any language. Kosovo Polje = Blackbird Plain. The Albanian extremists keep pretending they didn't wage a campaign of racist ethnic cleansing since the 1980s, keep pretending they haven't forced out hundreds of thousands of Serbs and Roma not to mention fellow Albanians, keep pretending they haven't burned down or destroyed hundreds of ancient churches. If Christians even make cartoons about Muslims, there are riots with people getting killed. But the whole world sits by and does nothing when Albanians destroy priceless cultural heritage because the victims are Orthodox Christians. Keep pretending, UCK supporters. People are starting to wake up and realize they've been duped.

As far as the Dutch go, we all know this is hypocritical nonsense. The Dutch didn't make any such demands regarding the criminals of Croatia and no demands at all have been made on the Slovenes regarding their war crimes.

to burim:

We Serbs speak the truth. So what if Serbs were involved in all those wars? Are you saying other sides weren't? We were just protecting our land and our people, if we wanted to take over the whole Jugoslavija we could have, but you see that was not the goal. And of course we did not start the wars, and that's a fact. Are you saying albanians didn't provoke with cowardly terrorist acts? Everyone knows they did. The CIA supported this, they even financed the uck, to achieve america's goals. So please don't come here and spread lies.

The Internaitonal Court of Justice in the Hague rules that Serbia has no responsibility for what happenned in Bosnia.

Therefore the Dutch are setting up double standards. Their claims contradict the ICJ ruling.

The Dutch are doing this because they can't punish Bosnia -- whose own citizens according to the ICJ ruling are responsible for what happenned in Srebrenica and throughout Bosnia.

Furthermore, anyone who makes ridicoulous claims about Srevrenica should read "Planned Chaos" by Ibran Mustafic.

to burim:

"You continue to spread your ready made talking points in an attempt to convince people that Serbs were the victims."

So Serbs werne't this victims? Why is there only 5 Serbs left in Pristina compared to 98-99? Maybe they decied to fly away.

"Accept the fact that you lost!"

You mean the way uck got destroyed by Serb army in 2 weeks? Is that what you call a loss?

"How can you call what the Albanians did cowardly?"

Well very simple, TERRORIST ATTACKS (kidnapping, torturing, murdering, putting bombs in cafes, murdering civillians/police). I was there so saying these things did not occur is pure LIES! People couldn't even live civillized just because albanians wanted to steal our land. Do you think Milosevic sent in the army for no reason?

"They were defending their homes and families! "

Ya after the cowardly terrorist provocations.

Greg, 11 June 2008, 13:36 wrote:
"The overwhelming majority votes fanatic radical parties"

World citizen, 11 June 2008, 15:32 Wrote:

Every time I read something here in blogs I see same pattern, you hide your guilt with oh but they did this to us. In Bosnia you killed many many people in the worst way possible, understand that and accept it.

Greg and W.C (hehe), Our "fanatical radical party" is more democratic than all the EU democratic parties put together. Its the EU and US who are bombing and killing humans in sovereign countries, without any UN approval - sounds very democratic to me. Too bad they hide all the deaths and ofcourse no one will be accountable for the torture of the prisoners and "accidental" killing of over 50,000 civilians (real dead not the hollywood stuff from the Bosnian civil war - please get that straight WC, it was a civil war full stop).

Thanks for the offer but you can shove the EU where it fits, most Serbs dont want in the EU they just want to be left alone. Those that want to leave wants Serbia in the EU so they can leave easier.

Even without this Dutch statement Serbia's chances to join the EU during the years to come are close to zero. There are a lot of other obstacles for that. So I believe that the shortest way to Brussels is through Moscow. Serbs must blackmail the West with closer cooperation with Russia in all branches. By betraying your heroes to enemy's tribunal and repeating the integration manthras you will not be closer to EU. Most of the countries oppose your membership and God knows what's gonna happen if the EU Constitution poll in Ireland fails as expected.

Russia is opening the door for you. For instance Moscow Government presses upon food retail to switch green lights for Serbian canned foods. Russia's most greedy man Finanace Minister Kudrin is ready to offer favor loans and make direct investments. Gasprom and Deripaska are waiting for the new Government to be formed. So the problem is not in Russia but in Serbia. You have to stop dreaming and be more realistic. Besides EU and US do not have even half of the free cash obtained by Russia. Why do you miss your chance ?

Напред Српска !

I notice Blic offered 6 pages today on politics but found just 1" square space to mention Verhagen's comments.

Seems Blic is frightened that their readership is not ready for a full expose of the 'truth' just yet.

No doubt DS has a cunning plan, if they get into government, to blame Kostunica for the Dutch and Belgium failure to ratify the SAA.

OK, so what are the chances of convincing the Serbian public to hand over their citizens to the NATO court? Well, we should all know this is not popular.

But hold on, give them some nice and juicy EU carrots and tell them of this wonderful place where everyone loves them and they can become members and get them all excited and then.....

.......take those carrots away............

Oh.... how dissapointed those poor souls would be...... no more wonderland where everyone loves them and they can become the super mega wealthy toilet cleaners they have always wanted to be.....

........but hold one, lets hand over one of those people to the NATO court and all will be solved.... the people will be happy again and the juicy carrots return....

OH, did the Serbian people just agree to handing over a citizen to the NATO court?

fools!

Good news actually. Think of the imposibility of Kosov-ugh joining any international establishment where those that oppose it have the power to stop it. Most likely, they will be denied in all international fraternities of any imnport.

It has to be that the Dutch have decided that keeping the Balkans in a chaotic and destabilised state is in their interest. It's a shame that no international organisations ever looked at the beastly way that the Dutch carried on in Indonesia. They have little room to preach to others about ethnic cleansing.

"The Netherlands have been clear from the beginning that full cooperation is a requirement for ratification. So no false promises can be claimed.
It is important for the Netherlands that Serbia takes responsibility for its past. (The Dutch government at the time resigned over Srebrenica.) If Serbia would just start with sharing information, witness protecting schemes and giving access to the archives things would start to look different. That would show that Serbia is ready to live up to the responsibilities that come with being a EU member state.

By the way, I wonder if ‘Daniel’ ever went to the Netherlands. We don’t wear wooden shoes anymore, we don’t crash our bikes (only tourists do), and we certainly do not cycle in the red-light district. Not that any of this has anything to do with the issue at hand."
(Willem, 11 June 2008 13:26)

thank you, willem, for articulating a much needed clarification, given so many unending lies and rationalizations from the nationalists. i am so sick of their mundacity i could scream!!! Argh!!! how dare they traffic in the dead, always excusing the butchery of non-serbs. it is a position absolutely morally bankrupt, which is so obvious it seems a sin to have to even write it.

i happen to have traveled through the netherlands ("Holland")on a number of occasions, and have always been treated well -- it has an amazing culture; even "ordinary" people will go out of their way to help you out. i have been assisted by dutch the world over, even inside poland during the Iron curtain days, but that is another story.

yes, there is some tension between some native dutch and some muslims living there. and yes, the dutch forces did surrender thousands of people to mladic and his evil forces, knowing what would happen to them. it was a horror, and the dutch govt deserved to fall because of it. i will never excuse it. but to even think for one SECOND that there is a moral equivalence between the small dutch force there and mladic's forces of genocide, is the product of the worst, most unbalanced kind of thinking.

let each of us take responsibility for what we do and what we don't do, and the same of our countries. but let us never relativize it all, claiming that "they" are all the same. they aren't!

roberto-frisco

I'm Dutch and live in Belgrade. First of all, I think that every party in the Balkan conflict has guilt. And so does the international community: Yugosalvia had to die and countries like Germany and the US did everything to make it happen.
Serbs have done a lot of warcrimes but was also hysterically portraited as Nazis. Croatia of course started ethnic cleasing first but noone talks about that. It was far easier to blame Serbia for everything, even for things that Croats, Moslims of Albanians did.

Now something about Maxime Verhagen. He is what we call more papan than the Pope. He is a conservative Catholic and Catholics think they have the true Christian faith. They don't like Protestants, let alone Orthodox.
You see, my country is being run (and ruined) by a deep religious government that more and more wants to impose a regime of what they call "norms and values". A few examples: Denmark protects its cartoonist. In Holland they get arrested.
They want to limit the freedom of expression and wanted to extent the law on blasphomy (so called to protect the Moslims in Holland that we always have to appease).
Really, the Liberal Holland under this regime is a thing of the past.

Maxime Verhagen takes this moralistic approach to an international level. Holland always want to be the best kid in the classroom and loves to raise the moralistic finger as to show others how to behave.

Most of the people of Holland or the Netherlands as we are called wants the goverment to fall. And more people start to become aware of what really happened in the Balkans and what the new role of NATO and the EU is in the new world order.
So, we are not all against you.

J,
(12 June 2008 10:49)

well thanks you for this insight
in who Maxine Verhangen is and how people start to see what NATO does in the 'NWO'.
Unfortunately this knowledge which slowly starts to spread around the world will remain for many years 'alternative', 'inconvenient' and 'undemocratic' 'truth'; depending on who's talking.

I also cannot stand how Russia's support to Serbia is labeled 'reactionary' and 'unprogressive'.

If somebody is reactionary and on top totally immature are indeed those EU politicians.

V,

Verhagen and the Dutch goverment are moralists and their wish to isolate Serbia is a lack of vision.
But there are those that realize that Serbia has a strategic geographical position and don't want a strong Serbia.

Do warcriminals be convicted for their warcrimes? Yes indeed.
But one can have serious doubts on the impartiality of the Yugoslav tribunual in the Hague, as someone called it here 'the NATO' court. It's a victor's court.

Before coming to Serbia I also had the view that so many other people have of Serbia. We were brainwashed by our media. I don't defend Serbia for its warcrimes that it indeed commited. But like I said, ALL parties were guilty and also the international community. After the collapse of the Iron curtain, Yugoslavia had lost its geopolitical use to the West so it had to go. Germany interfered in Croatia and the US in Bosnia because the US foreign policy focus is the Middle East so therefore to please the ME included 'defending' Bosnia.
The whole NATO interference in the former Yugosalvia was just prelude for the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and God knows what' next.
I guess I'm not telling anything new.

I think you have to see the world as you would look at the world of say the Romans.
It's all about the power and small countries like Serbia and indeed Holland are just pons in big empire's chessgames.

So, Serbia will never become an EU candidate until a Montenegrian psychiatrist Radovan Karadjic and a Bosnian Chief of Staff of the "Bosnian" army are arrested and planed to the Hag.

Niko Bellic is probably also wanted by the war crimes Hague tribunal In the Netherlands, And Serbia cannot become an EU candidate country before Niko is on a plane flying to the Hague :)

“They knew why Mladic came.”

Obviously. Mladic came to Srebrenica to wipe out the last remnant of resident Bosnian resistence in the western part of the Drina with the intent to annex the Bosnian Serb para-state with Serbia, creating thus Greater Serbia.

He almost got there, but due to Western pressure and Milosevic's fall, he got on the run.

Richard,

The reason that Serbs were involved in every war is due to the fact that Serbs formed part of the population of Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. And they were there for centuries because Yugoslavia has always been multi-ethnical and multi-religious. Serbs formed almost one third of the population of Croatia and almost half of the population of Bosnia. Currently only 3% of Coratia is Serb. Croatia kicked out (with help of the US and Germany) almost all Serbs. Clinton armed the Moslims and the region was flooded with Mujahedin and Al Qaeda. Same with the KLA in Kosovo.

Every minority in the region is granted selfdetermination except for the Serbs in Bosnia or Croatia.

You're analogy with Nazi Germany is a false one. There is more relation between the Nazis and Croatia. Have a look at WWII. Croatia was fascist and killed tens of thousands of Serbs.

Nobody in the West understood the complex make up of the region. Or maybe they understood it very well and used it to their own advantage.....

Serbia, now is your chance. It is time to join Russia & it's CIS. It is the only correct path for the survival of your nation & religion.

Since when have the Dutch been a model for moral value law and order- REMEMBER 'APARTIED' IN SOUTH AFRICA - DUTCH in origin! These Dutch also house the KANGAROO COURT - THE HAGUE - built to protect NATO from there own crimes.

Ofcourse no way.. to many war criminals walking around free in serbia and any visa liberation whith serbia is a dissster and big welcome of crimes around the EU since we all know Serbia has done numerous wars and way of big damage in ballkan..